excommunication should gyue the vnderstaÌ„dyng inough for excommunication signifieth none othere thynge but to be cast out of a communaltye Nathanaell It is then as muche to be excommmnicate out of the church as to be banished frome some certayne places Phylype It is almooste lyke for as a towne CoÌ„parison of the churche hath hys ciuell policye and hys magistrates the whyche do conduce and gouerne it accordynge to the lawes and ordinaunces conueniente with the common wealthe for it euen so hathe the churche hys spirituall policie and ecclesiasticall discipline and hys pastures ministers and senatoures to entertayne and gouerne hyr accordyng to the lawes and ordinaunces that she hathe receyued of Iesus christe Euen so then as in the ciuell coÌ„mune wealthe that whyche is done by theim whyche haue the charge beynge lawefullye thereunto elected and go not out of the limites of theyr offices and of the lawes and ordinaunces by the whyche the towne oughte to be ruled and gouerned is approued coÌ„firmed of al men Euen so in the churche of Iesus Christe all that is done accordynge to hys worde by theÌ„ vnto whom she is committed is ratified not Math. xvi Iohn xx onelye by all the churche but also by Iesus Christe in the name and vertue of whom the thynge is done And if a manne for his euyle behauour or demeanoure be lawfully banished froÌ„ a towne he is depriued of the coÌ„munaltye of the same is no lenger pertaker of the liberties fraunchises and priuileges nor of the commune goodes no more then a straunger which hath there nothynge to do EueÌ„ so is it of him that is excommunicate by the church Nathanaell And who hath the power to excommunicate Phy. Iesu Christe hathe gyuen that power to al hys church vnto the whych he hath coÌ„mitted The ecclesiacal power the keyes of hys kyngdome by the which this excoÌ„munication is exercised Natha Is it then required that when a man shal be excommunicate to assemble the whole churche and that euerye one shoulde saye hys opinion gyue his sentence Mâ— semeth that were verye harde should engendre a greate confusion Phy. Oure Lorde Iesus Christe hathe well prouided for he teacheth vs the meane way Math. xviii that we oughte to hold and by what degrees we muste procede he teacheth vs fyrste howe we ought to admonish the offendre aparte how we should cal him before witnesses if he wyll not heare those and receiue theyr brotherly admonission and correction and be coÌ„uerted and chastice hym self and if hys offeÌ„ce do so deserue theÌ„ to report it vnto the church and congregation whych is the laste remedy we muste come vnto yet it is not necessarie to assemble all the churche for thys but suffiseth to haue the ecclesiastical councell whych haue the charge of the ecclesiasticall dicipliâ—e Natha What vnderstandeste thou by thys eccesiastical councell Phy. I vnderstand the priestes and ministers of the church wyth other good honest persons of the people whyche be lawfullye elected choseÌ„ for to wache ouer the maners and sclaunders of the churche and for the vpholdynge of discipline in the same eueÌ„ as the couÌ„celers and magistrates be elected and choseÌ„ for the conseruation maintenaunce of iustice in the commune wealth and for the enterteynynge of peace and vnite amonge the Cytyzens and these be they whyche the scripture calleth priestes whyche sygnifieth as muche Priestes as elders and senatoures bycause they haue lyke office in the church as the senatours haue in the coÌ„moÌ„e welth saying ther is a grat difference in the administratioÌ„ for the one is ciuile temporal hath the materiall swerde for to vphold mainteigne defeÌ„de hyr the other is Difference of the ciuill ecclesiastical Rule Rom. xiii Ephe. vi ecclesiasticall spirituall and hath the swerd of the spirite whyche is the worde of God to conserue hyr Natha By all that I can coÌ„preheÌ„d by thy wordes thou wilt saie that as in a towne we do say that the towne hathe done that which hath be done by the councel magistrate of the same EueÌ„ so in the church we ought to vndrestand that that whych is done by them that haue charge of the same and vnto the which Iesus Christe and she also haue giuen the power and the administratioÌ„ of the keys is done by the churche Phy. So vnderstand I it For those be but seruauntes ministers of the churche by whoÌ„ she doeth exercise the power that Iesus Christe hath gyuen hir and doeth declare the authoritie of the keyâ— whyche she hathe receyued of hym Natha What nede is there of excommunication seynge ther is a magistrate in the church for the punishment of the offenders Phy. What nede is there of any euangelical pastour when ther is a magistrate or of preachynge when there is ciuell iustice wherfore doeth not the magistrate boeth the one the other Natha Bicause the matters be diuers and is necessarie that the offices shoulde be distincte seperated in the commune wealth or otherwise ther should be coÌ„fusion to mingle the teÌ„poral thinges spiritual togither and is not possible that those self persoÌ„s myght well exercises both to acquite them selues wel but in takyng vpon them to do both should do nother but marre al. Phi. Thou saiest wel And therfor as it is requisit that the ciuil teÌ„poral administratioÌ„ should be seperated froÌ„e the ecclesiasticall and the temporall frome the spiritual EueÌ„ so likewise must the correctioÌ„s of the one the other after a sorte be seperated for otherwyse the churche should not haue hir whole ryghte nor spirituall iurisdiction the whyche is gyuen vnto hyr of our Lord Iesus Christe the whyche the cyuylle magistrate cannot take frome hyr wythout doynge hyr greate wronge and Iniurye nor wythout doynge greate dishonoure vnto Iesus Christ hyr head whyche hath gyuen her that authorite for the magistrate is not ordeined of god for to vsurpe by power or tyrannye ouer the churche of oure Lorde Iesus Christe as the papisticall churche and the Antechrist hir head hathe vsurped ouer the maiestrate and ouer the temporall sworde but it is ordeyned of God for to vphold the churche to healpe to conserue hyr and to mayntaygne hir rightes Therefore sayeth the prophete that the kynges and quenes shal be hir nourishers Esai xxvi Natha But when the magistate hathe chasticed punished the traunsgressours oughte it not to suffice the churche Phylip. Thou oughteste to vnderstande that ther be diuers faultes which be sclanders vnto the churche of whyche the ciuyll lawes do not greatlye force for they haue not so muche respecte vnto conscience as to the outwarde Correction bi the church peace and tranquilitie but the churche hathe hir respecte to edify the conscience and to reconcile the manne vnto God and further albeit that a manne haue bene punished corporallye and hathe made satisfaction vnto the lawe yet hathe he not for
all that satisfied the churche whyche was offendyd by hym for notwythstandynge he hathe bene punishede in hys bodye or by hys purse or by boeth yet doeth it not for al that folow that he is an honest manne for in that he hathe bene punished hathe bene agaynste hys wyll and the payne that he hathe suffered hathe not for all that chaunged hys hert except the Lord with hys holye spirite haue touched hym therefore as the churche leueth vnto the punishmeÌ„t of the magistrate such as by him be punishable to be punished wyth such punishmente as they haue deserued wythout medelynge hyr selfe wyth the temporall swerde euen so ought the temporall magistrate not onely to suffer the church to procede in hyr office after he hath done hys but also to healpe hyr in the execution of hyr office if nead require as and if ther be any rebellioÌ„ against the same which requireth more greuouse punishment theÌ„ she maye gyue or put in execution for what other thynge is the ecclesiasticall councell or senate but a membre or parte of the magistrate and of them whyche partly be ordeyned by hym sauyng ther is an other maner of proceading for suche as haue bene moued to repentaunce but rather hardened by the punishmeÌ„te of the temporal swerde whych shal be conuerted by that whych shal be opened vnto theim of the worde of God for God hathe not coÌ„stituted the ministration of hys Gospel in his church wythout gyuynge hyr vertue and efficatie by hys holye spirite by the whych he doth strike the soules more lyuely theÌ„ the material swerd stryketh the bodye and further when a man hathe made suche amendes as he hathe bene ioyned vnto by the lawe theÌ„ is the ciuilitie of the lawe satisfied whyche forceth not muche wyth what herte it be done but the church requireth the testimonie of the herte and caÌ„not admitte them into hyr communion whyche be sclaunderous vnto hyr and whyche haue by the workes declared that they be no membres of hyr bodye excepte that fyrste she shall haue sene theyr repentaunce that they shall haue gyuen certayne sygnes and testimonies of the same for it is defended hyr to giue that Math. vii which is holy vnto Dogges and to caste hyr margarittes precious stones before swyne Natha But in asmuch as the churche is constitute of menne howe can she better iudge of the herte then the ciuyle magistrate and further what satisfaction wylte thou haue other theÌ„ that of Iesu Christ for thy self hath sayed that none othere can satisfie vnto the Iustice of God Phyly As towchynge the herte the churche leaueth it vnto the iudgmente of God which only knoweth it but yet neuertheles she hath more care theÌ„ the ciuyle magistrate can not admit nor receyue a manne into hyr coÌ„panie whyche at the leaste wyll not confesse wyth hys mouthe by the whyche he doeth testifie the christen herte that he hathe it may wel be that often tymes the herte doth not agre with the confession of the mouthe and that the coÌ„fession be fayned as it was in Simon Magus Ananias Saphyra but it sufficeth vnto the churche that a man shewe hyr outward testimonie of the herte for she can not iudge whether it be fained hypocriteth or faithful wherefore she can not caste out hym whyche commeth vnto hyr wyth anye testimonie of fayeth for if hys testimonie be fayned she leaueth the iudgmente vnto God whyche shall discouer it in hys time but to receyue any person wythout open testimonie of repeÌ„taunce faieth she caÌ„ not without doynge againste the word of god for wheÌ„ the dogs swine do opeÌ„lie shewe theÌ„ selfe such by theyr workes and be not couered with shepe skines why should she not iudg theÌ„ She hath none excuse nor resonable cause for to receiue theÌ„ seing that god hath giueÌ„ hir the iudgmeÌ„tes of such things that she hath the mean so to do therfor wheÌ„ a maÌ„ declareth hym self manifestlie sclaunderous a rebell vnto the ecclesiasticall correctioÌ„ discipline the last remedi that the church hath is to excoÌ„municate that is to saye to opeÌ„ vnto him that she taketh him not for any meÌ„bre of Christ nor worthi to be in the coÌ„pani of the faithful nor to coÌ„municate the Sacramentes whych Iesus Christ hath gyuen hir vnto the which ought none to be admitted but hir Math. xviii disciples but oughte to be reiected and depriued of them as a publican and a panim or as a Iewe or turke whyche the fayethfull wyll nor receyue into theyr communion but doeth hold him as an Apostata enemy of christiaÌ„ religioÌ„ wheÌ„ he is so reiected froÌ„ the church i. Corin. v. ii Corin. ii i. Timot. i. he is in the handes of Sathan for to afflicte him is seperated froÌ„ Iesu Christ after such sorte that if he do not reknowledge hys faultes amend him selfe and laboure to recoÌ„cyle hym selfe vnto the churche he is vtterly loste and dampned for in as muche as the churche hathe bounde hym he is bounde seynge that Iesus Christe hathe gyuen it that power by the ministration of hys worde by the whiche also he is vnbounde if he reknoweledge hys Math xvi xviii faultes be receyued agayne into the church by penaunce Natha The churche is then verye rigorouse and hathe a power muche moore to be feared then the swerd of the magistrate for it caÌ„ punish but the body but that of the church sleaeth the soules how doth this theÌ„ agre wyth that whyche Iesus Christe hathe sayed that he was not come for to destroye or lose but to saue is the church of anye other nature theÌ„ Luke ix Iesus Christ hir head Phyly No. But the euell do kyll and daâ—ne them selues in reiectynge the blissinge of Iesus Christe whyche is presented and offered vnto hym by his churche therfore the church doeth not dampne hym but onelye declareth vnto hym his daÌ„nation reiecteth him as daÌ„ned not to the intente that he should so be but to the inteÌ„t he should not be but he knowing hys damnation and seynge hym selfe depriued and shytte out of the companye of Iesus Christe of the Angels and of all sayntes and forsaken of all the fayethfull myghte be the more ashamed and confounded and the better feele the iudgemeÌ„te of God vpon hym to the ende that by thys meane he myghte he moued to repentaunce that he should not perishe eternallye for thys same oughte wel to astony hym seyng hym self bound by the churche whych hath suche power by the keyes which Iesus Christe hathe gyuen hyr that whatsoeuer Math. xvi xviii is bound or vnbouÌ„de in the earth by hyr is bouÌ„d or vnbounde in heauen Natha Then is the excommunication rather a medicine and a remedie then a death damnation Phylip. Accordynge as euerye man doeth vse it to hys profit for it is the last remedy of the churche the whyche she doeth vse as a corsey towardes synners that
to God for me vnto suche confession doeth Saynte Iames exhorte vs sayinge Confesse your selues one to an other and praye eche one for other he doth not say confesse the vnto the priestes for as we oughte to praye the one for the other not the priestes onelye euen so ought we to reknowledge oure faultes one to an other coÌ„fesse our infirmities for to giue praises vnto God for the entertayning of amitie amoÌ„ge vs euerie one to seke the quietnes of other but I haue not founde in all the holye scripture that God hath coÌ„mâ—unded vs to go to tell all our synnes in the eate of a priest for that is impossible God doeth not so muche desire the reliting of our sinnes by perticuler Math. xvi as the coÌ„trition sighes sorowes of the herte the teares as we haue exemple in S. Petre which did much better coÌ„fesse his sinnes with his hert his eyes theÌ„ with mouth Natha I find that that thou saiest is very good but I woulde yet fayne knowe howe thys remissioÌ„ is practised in the church and howe we be partakers of it is it not by the bulles indulgence and pardons gyuen by the Pope Phy. It is by pardon and indulgence but not of paper and perchemente sealed wyth waxe or lead as those whych the Pope gyueth but by the indulgence and bulles that the celestiall father hath sente vs frome heauen by hys sonne Iesus Christe wryten in oure hertes wyth hys owne propre finger and by hys holy spirite sealed with his precious bloud ratified and confirmed by his death passion Natha The bulles and pardons of the pope be then nothynge worth Phy. Yes they profit them that gyueth them as towchyng theyr bodies bycause they take money for them but they brynge greate domage and hurte vnto theyr soules also vnto the bodyes and soules and goodes of theim that receyue them for in as much as they seke remission of synnes by anie other meane then by the bloude of our Lorde Iesus Christ they do not beleue the remissioÌ„ of sinnes the which they confesse the whych is in the church of Iesu christ wherfore they abide alwaies in their sinne daÌ„natioÌ„ subiectes to the cuâ—sse maledictioÌ„ that S. Petre dyd gyue vnto Simon Magus his monei Nata Thou wilte then saye ther â—â— no other true pope that maie giue vs indulgence and pardon for to deface and take awaye ours sinnes but Iesu Christ but by what meanes doth he make vs partakers of hys pardons and indulgences Phylype By the ministeri of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen that is to say by the predication preaching oâ— hys worde whiche is the true keye of knowledge Nathanaell And who then hath these keyes â—uc xi Math. xxiii Math. xvi Phy. The church to whom Christe hathe gyuen them and be put in vre and practise by al true euangelicall Apostles pastours ministers priestes Nata Haue they theÌ„ authoritie and power to pardon synnes to absolue men Phy. Not of them selues but by the ministration of the keyes and preachynge of the gospell Natha Speake thys more clearlye Phy. There is but the onelye God that may pardon and forgyue synnes and that maye gyue grace but wheÌ„ by his ministers he doth offre vnto vs Iesu Christe hys sonne by his worde and in hym remission of oure sinnes he that beleueth is saued vnbounde and deliuered frome his synnes and he that beleueth not abydeth bound and damned as the minister openeth vnto hym by the worde Natha Then the ministers be but seruauntes ambassadours haue no authoritie nor power â–ª but so much as theâ— take of the word in that they do faithfullie set forth theyr message and ambassade Phy. No for none can pardon the synnes but God when man doth open the word of god it is not maÌ„ that speaketh but it is the spirite of God that speaketh in hym by the whyche the bearer is bounde or losed accordyng to hys fayeth or vnbeleue Therfore dyd Iesus Christ blow toward his disciples gaue them the holie gost before he sayed vnto them whose synnes soeuer ye forgiue shal be forgiueÌ„ whose synnes soeuer ye retayne shal be retayned he woulde by that shewe that it was the holye Goste that dyd pardon them and not they whyche he dyd vse as hys instrumentes and messengers Natha I vnderstaÌ„d wel it is as an ambassadoure whyche if he fayethfullye execute hys Math. x. Ihon. x. chaâ—ge the prince confirmeth it that he doeth if he do otheâ—wyse he wyll not coÌ„firme it but punish hym greuouslye Phylype It is as a man that will open a gate it he haue no keye or if the keye that he hath be not mete for the locke he caÌ„ not opeÌ„ it and therfore in asmuche as Iesus Christâ— is the dore and the waye by the whyche onelye wee maye go vnto the father Rom. x. Luc. xi and wee can not goe vnto Iesus Christe but by fayeth whyche openeth vnto vs the dore and all the treasures that be in him and fayeth cometh by hearynge of the worde of God whych is the key of knowledge it doth wel folowe that al the power of the Apostles of theyr successours is there limited that he that hath not this key is no minister of christ Natha I may theÌ„ well vnderstande by thys that the power of the pope of byshopes and priestes doeth extende so farre as they folowe the worde of God and God doeth approue and confirme that whych they do by it that whyche they do wythout it or agaynste it he doeth condemne all Phy. If thou wylt se the practise of thys considre howe S. Peter dyd vse at Hierusalem he dyd open Iesus Christ penaunce and remission of sinnes in his name Practies of the keys Act. ii iii. vnto the Iewes they whyche the worde dyd touche at the herte and beleued in it were losed by hys ministerie accordynge to the promise of Iesu christ saing that he that beleueth Mark xvi is baptised shall be saued coÌ„trarye wise he that beleueth not shal be coÌ„demned it foloweth theÌ„ that al the infidels abide bound as by the open preachyng all the hearers be bound or vnbounde accordynge to theyr fayeth or vnbeleue euen so be wee by all the perticuler admonicions of the Gospell opened shewed forthe vnto vs by the seruauntes of God visitynge correckynge admonishynge or coÌ„solatyng of vs other in health or sikcenes Nathanaell Thys poynte is inoughe opened Resureccion of the fleshe declared let vs come nowe vnto that whych foloweth of the resurrectioÌ„ of the flesh and the lyfe eternall whych shal be for the end coÌ„clusioÌ„ wherfore be these two last articles put in Phy. For manye causes for wythout them al the religion were nothynge for if we beleue not the resurrection of the flesh that oure bodyes shoulde ryse agayne after thys i Cor. xv mortall lyfe we
fynd that might do and accomplishe that whyche that of Iesus Christ might not And if al they which haue bene offered according to the law might neuer sanctifie and make cleane the synners notwythstandynge they were ordeyned and commaunded of god but hath bene necessarie that Iesus Christe the soueraygne bishope hygh prieste according to the ordre of Melchiledecke should come offre his propre body Psal Cx. bloude in sacrifice for the redemption of our soules what may we hope of theÌ„ whyche the priestes do at thâ—se dayes in theyr masses of the whyche they haue no commaundemente of God Natha I donot wel vnderstand to what purpose thou speakest this Phylype Thou oughtest to vnderstand that the priestes do glory that in theyr masses they offre vnto God sacrifices for the redemption of oure soules and do auaunce them selues that that sacrifice which they offre is the propre bodie and bloude of Iesus Christe and if it so be theÌ„ Iesus Christ is no more the christ that is to saye the anoynted of God and the eternal priest after the ordre of Melchisedech but they be it theÌ„ selues seynge they attribute vnto them selues the office whych onely vnto hym apperteyneth and is propre vnto the Christe of God for it is not in the power of anye person to offre the sacrifice of reconsiliation Sacrifice of redemption and of redemption and to sacrifice Iesus Christe but vnto hym selfe whyche is the Christe of God whyche is offered hym selfe by the eternall spirite Natha Howe agreeth this then the priestes synge the Crede in theyr Masse and confesse in the same that they beleue in Iesus Christ but if it be as thou sayeste they do all cleane contrarye to that whyche they synge and denye by worckes Iesus Christe to be the very Christe the whyche they confesse wyth theyr mouthes Phylype There is nothynge more true and not they onelye but also all they that gyue fayeth vnto theyr doctrine and that haue recourse vnto theyr sacrifices and Masses for the remission of theyr synnes whether it be for the lyuynge or for the dead Nathana They be then christians wythout Christe Phylype They be not christians wythout Christ for a Christe they haue but wythout the true Christ they be Nata They haue theÌ„ a false Christ Phylype That is true and yet not contente wyth one but haue as manye as they haue priestes whych do cal them selues Chrystes attributynge vnto them selues onelye that whyche the prophete dyd vnderstande of all Psal Cv. the people of God sayinge touche not my Christes or myne anoynted they maye well be Christes but of the numbre of them of the whyche Christe dyd prophesye saying there Math xiiii shal come mani false prophets false christes Natha I woulde not haue thought that that onelye name of Christe hadde comprehended so manye thynges and had drawen such consequence after it I knowe well nowe by experience that manye do saye theyr crede whych vnderstande nothynge and do all contrarie lye them selues Phy. Thou mayste Iudge thy selfe and ther fore it is neadful that al these poyntes be wel diffined to be clearly vnderstande Natha It semeth me that thys poynte is wel inoughe diffined and largely Inoughe declared for thys tyme wherefore lette vs passe ouer forward Wherfore saiest thou his onlye sonne or hys sonne vnited it doeth seeme that thou wylt denye by thys particuler exclusiue that ther is no sonne of God but Iesus christ Phy. I do not denye but that all the elected be the chyldren of God but there is but one that is to saye Iesus whyche is hys true and natural chyld as we haue before expounded Natha How be we theÌ„ chyldren of god Phy. By adoption and not by nature Nathanaell What doest thou call adoption Phy. I call adoption when one doeth take a chylde whyche is not hys owne propre child procreate of hys owne bodie for hys own propre legitimate chylde geuinge vnto him al rightes titles as though he were trulie naturallie his childe not as thoughe he were bounde vnto it but doeth it of hys owne free goodnes and of the loue that he beareth vnto hym and euen so be we sonnes of God by Iesus Christe in whom God doeth loue vs adopte chose and receiue vs for hys chyldren therfore is the spirite of God called the spirite Rom. viii of adoption Natha Wherefore gyueste thou yet vnto hym thys title callynge hym oure Lorde Phy. Bycause he hath bought vs that we Cor. vi be hys and his subiectes and seruauntes and that full power is gyuen hym as well in heauen as in earth and that he is kynge prince Math ii xiii and Lorde of all creatures and the onely gouernour and maister the head of his church hathe power to gyue lawes ordinaunces Colo. i. ii vnto men for theyr saluation vnto the which all men muste be subiectes Natha I vnderstande wel nowe the sence of thys article and the principall poyntes whyche it doeth conteyne let vs therfore folowe the rest Phy. In asmuche as we haue determined to deuide thys parte as I dyd set it forthe in the begynnynge it shal be good as semeth me to make here oure fyrst reste diuision after let vs entre into the matter of the incarnation of Iesus Christe as I haue promised the. Natha I am of accorde in al that thou wylte albeit that me thynketh the tyme not longe that I am ready of myne own parte to heare al the daye longe if it were not to thine nuer greate payne and werines notwytstandinge I do not beleue by all that I caÌ„ perceyue that thys laboure and payne to be greuous vnto the but rather that thou doest it hauyng more regarde vnto me then vnto thy selfe for thou knoweste well that I am to small and little a vessell to receyue at once so muche of thys diuine licoure lyuelye water poured forth of the fountayne of the worde of God Phy. I woulde it were the pleasure of God that I myght fynde manye suche vessels that were so receiuable of thys worde of lyfe nor I do not this bycause I mistrust thy capacitie but to the ende that both the one and the other of vs may the better gather and sauour this breade of life which here is ministered to vs. Natha Thy reason is verye good lette vs therefore boeth go aboute our other busines that we may returne agayne the more fresh wyth the better courage In thys nexte dialoge shall be set forth the historie of Iesus Christe from the tyme of hys conception vnto hys ascention and shal entreate of the misterie of hys Incarnation and of oure redemption Nathanaell THou wouldest not beleue Phyllype how long I haue thoughte the time sens oure departynge for I haue taken so greate a taste and sauoure in that I haue herde of the heretofore that I thought I shoulde neuer se the time Inoughe to
thou lyue and dye in hyr when thou knowest not where she is Phy. Although I can not perceiue nor know al that be coÌ„prised in it yet neuertheles I haue certayne sygnes by the whyche I know am assured what she is Nathanaell What be those sygnes Phy. In all places coÌ„panies Syngnes to knowe the church by â— where as the worde of God is purelye opened receyued the sacrameÌ„tes of Iesu Christ obserued and kept I am certaine that there is of the shepe of Iesus Christe of the elected or otherwyse hys voyce should not be opened nor yet receyued Natha Thou wylt then saye that the worde of god the sacrameÌ„tes of Iesu Christ be indubitable signes of the same but manie speak of Iesus Christe and make semblant to heare hys worde whych be hypocrites beleue not in hym as Iudas was and suche â—yke And coÌ„trariewyse there be many vnknoweÌ„ which be estemed vnhappy damned yet haue faith shall atteyne to the kyngdome of heauen be fore them that shewe greate apparant as Iesus Christe dyd saye the harlottes publicaÌ„s Math. xxii shoulde obteigne it before the scribes phariseis Phy. Therefore haue I sayed that thys churche is inuisible vnknowen vnto me not bicause we se not with the bodily eyes the meÌ„ whyche be of it but because that man can not se the hertes nor can not deserue nor knowe whether the man that he seeth beleueth or no Ephe. ii how holie soeuer he seme nor none caÌ„ know it but the onlie God which gyueth the fayth knoweth the herte that receyueth it Nathan Thou art then ofteÌ„ begiled thinking that the church is wher the gospel is preached the in stitutioÌ„ of Iesus obserued seing that they that be ther do such thyngs may be such as Iudas Act. i. v. viii SimoÌ„ magus Ananias Saphira weâ— Phylip. Albeit that suche hypocrites maye be mingled in greate numbre amonge the faithful which be alwayes the lytle flocke yet neuertheles it is certayne that amonge them be some of Christes shepe for els God woulde not permit nor suffer that the preciouse pearles and margarites of hys holye Gospell shoulde be caste before dogges swine only Natha What if the wolues swine and dogs call theim selues shepe and in stede of the gospell sette forthe theyr owne dreames and humayne traditious howe causte thou knowe deserue the churche â— Cor. xii Phy. The Lorde hathe lefte vs hys holye scriptures for to iudge and deserue by the analogie of the fayeth and the rule of charitie whether the spirites be of God or not whether the spirit in the which I beleue do raigne the whyche is gyuen vnto the elected for to iudge all thynges for the spirituall man iudgeth all thynges and is iudged of no man Thâ— roman churche Natha And is not the romayne churche that holie catholyke church which thou beleueste and must be folowed Phy. If the romayne churche do abyde and perseuer in the apostolyke doctrine I wyl reknowledge hyr a churche of Iesus Christ inasmuche as she declareth hir selfe to be the spouse of Iesus Christe in obeying vnto him as vnto hyr heade and for to lyue vndre hys lawes and ordinaunces but yet maye I not take it for thys vniuersal church of the which we haue spoken for she can be but a meÌ„bre of that churche no more then other congregations and other christian churches that be abrode in the uniuersall world seperated both in places and bodies and yet ioyned in spirite and soule makynge all togyther one vniuersall churche Nathan But is not the Romayne church the heade of all the other vnto the whyche all the other oughte to obeye as subiectes Phy. If she be head she is no more theÌ„ nother spouse nor membre of hys body suche as the faythfull ought to be if she wyll haue dominion gyue lawes vnto other she is no more a churche of Iesus but is the churche of Antechriste whyche attributeth vnto hyr self the office appertayninge vnto Christe for the office of the churche is not to gyue lawes vnto hyr but receiue them of hym and to make hyr selfe subiecte vndre the same Natha The churche then whych wyll exarcise power ouer the other gyue theim other lawes then the Gospell of Iesu is no churche of Christe bycause hys spirite reygneth not ther but to what purpose serueth it to beleue the vniuersal churche Phy. Without that article al the reste goyng before shoulde serue me for nothyng For all that we haue sayed of God that we beleue of the father of the sonne and of the holye Goste hath regarde vnto thys churche without the whyche all oure faith should be vaine for in this crede we do not considre what god is in hym selfe but what he is towardes vs whyche be hys churche and by what meanes he hath willed hyr to be deliuered conserued ruled gouerned wherefore al that we haue treated here before pretendeth to thys end for we muste nedes haue layed thys fundatioÌ„ to buylde after thereupon thys edifice wythout the whythe the fundation shoulde profitte vs in nothynge if we were not surelye builded there vpon Nathana I vnderstande well that thou haste sayed of the vniuersall churche but I desyre yet much to knowe what thou vnderstandest by the communion of sayntes Phy. I vnderstande here no other thyng but that whyche I haue alreadye sayed that is to saye the holye vniuersall churche but this we put to the better to declare the vnite that is amoÌ„ge the faithful for as in one towne in one coÌ„mon wealth in one coÌ„munaltie coÌ„munioÌ„ amoÌ„ge the inhabitauÌ„ces citizens membres that be within it so likewise in the churche of Iesu christ ther is one vnite aliauÌ„ce burgelie brotherhede whyche after such sort conioyneth the bodie with hys head Iesus Christe all the membres the one wyth the other that they haue no goods that is not coÌ„mune amoÌ„g theÌ„ nor that the one doth not coÌ„municate vnto the other for Iesu Christ coÌ„municateth al his goodes to his membres al the goodes that he doth coÌ„municate to his churche returneth or coÌ„meth to euerie one of his meÌ„bres in perticuler euerye one receyueth his parte as the meÌ„bres the which the head doth coÌ„municate vnto them as the soule whyche is shed thorowe all the bodye giueth life vnto all the meÌ„bres of the same Nath. It is then no small benifite to be in the churche of Iesus Christe-nor no smal euil to be out of that churche Phy. It is with theÌ„ that be without as wyth the braunche that is cut of the vine or as the bowgh or twigge cut of the tre the which froÌ„ theÌ„se forth can haue nother nourishmente nor life but must neades drie away is good for nothing but to be cast in the fyre Na. They which be excommunicate be they out of thys coÌ„munioÌ„ Phylip. The word of