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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
power_n	call_v	church_n	synod_n	2,889	5	9.6067	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A96167	An answer to W.R. his narration of the opinions and practises of the churches lately erected in Nevv-England. Vindicating those Godly and orthodoxall churches, from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their church way, by the said W.R. in his booke. Wherein is plainely proved, 1. That the grounds of his narration are sandie and insufficient. 2. That the maner of his handling it, unloving and irregular. 3. That the matter of it, ful of grosse mistakes & divers contradictions. 4. That the quotations extremely wrested, and out of measure abused. 5. That his marginall notes impertinent and injurious. / By Thomas Welde, Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in Nevv-England. This is licensed and entred according to order.	Weld, Thomas, 1590?-1662.	1644 (1644)	Wing W1262; Thomason E3_18; ESTC R2769	70,175	76

it from any Reverend brother to blot his paper so unwarrantably 2. Though your ground of this report be weake yet it seemes your credence is strong for you make inferences from these premises against us And as your ground is bad so your end in relating of it is as bad i. e. to cast a blot upon our Churches as if their practises did crosse their principles 3. What will you say now W. R. if your informations prove false as indeede they doe for neither did their owne Churches nor all the Churches send Mr. P. and Mr. W. but the whole state of New-England or Generall Court with one consent upon some speciall imployments which cannot yet be all finished Now I have told you the truth let me give you a few Animadversions 1 Bestow to beleeve ought against your brethren hereafter 2 Slower to report it to others 3 But never print it without manifest grounds and a good call 4 If you have done otherwise be swift to recall it To Marg. of Art 4. wherein he disputes against us about our non-communion or withdrawing our selves from other Churches in case of obstinacy by two arguments 1. Because non-communion is in substance the very same with Synodicall excommunications Object 1 and by it he saith a man is cast out of the Church and given up to Satan as well as by excommunication If it be so W. R. 1 Why have you said so oft in opposition to our way that our Churches have no power over one another Ans when as our Churches have a power to withdraw by non-communion and that withdrawing say you is as much as your Synodicall excommunication 2 Why do you so sleight our Churches counsells admonitions to other churches as not being authoritative Whereas if they be not obeyed it seemes they can passe as sore a censure as all your Synodicall Authority For you can doe no more by it then excommunicate and so farre you say we can proceede 3. Why then doe you call us abusively Independants for by your saying it stands us in hand to depend as much upon other Churches for counsell and admonition as you on a Presbyterie or Synod or they will give us up to Satan as well as a Synod 4. Why then doe not you accord with us in this point of Non-communion seeing in it your selves and we can comfortably close rather then strive with your brethren for Synodicall excommunication to which their judgements cannot yeeld seeing that is the same in effect with this This being attended to will end a great part of the difference Obj. But whiles we oppose Synodicall excommunication we establish it saith he by standing for non-communion it being the same in effect with the other ibid. Though W. R. thinkes they are both one I cannot For that is positive Ans this only negative That a sentence passed This not so That a cutting off from Churchdom at least for present a giving up to Satan c. This only a cessatiō of conferring Church priviledges c. By the one the Churches withdraw and call in that only which once they gave which is the right hand of fellowship by the other the Synod or Classis take away that which they never gave or had power to bestow which is the excommunicates membership in their own Church So that when we stand for the one as having no rule to carry us further we doe not establish the other This is his first argument against us about non-communion The second that it is more cruell and more dangerous then Synodall excommunication Ans Me thinks this seemes strange seeing it is a lighter and lesser punishment then the other by Non-communion A man is only let go into the world where Satans walkes are by Synods excom hee is given up and cast to Satan to terrifie and vexe him But his arguments for the cruelty and danger of Non-communion are these foure Reasons 1. Because by this whole Churches saith he may come to be cast out Ans So they may as well by a Synod excommunication for if a Synod hath power to cast out one member of other Churches then by the same reason 2. 6. 10. and so a whole Church as well and Churches too for where will you stop 2. By this saith he the Church deserted is left to it selfe in their error Ans Looke what meanes publique or private a Synod may use for any man or Churches regaining the very same meanes to the highest extent may the other Churches use likewise 3 This causeth endles rents Ans Shew in any point wherein or why more then the other 4 This saith he hinders not the infection of others but that by cutting off the rotten members the rest are kept sound Answ Doe not this crosse what he said before that by non-communion a man is cast out and delivered up to Satan yet here hee denies it Ob. Popular Governement is one cause of Schismes in New-England and quotes Mr. Parkers letter Answ Blessed be God that under that Governement of ours which you call or rather miscall Popular the very neck of Schisms and vile opinions brought to us from hence was broken When here amongst you where there is not such a Governement they walke bolt upright amongst you and crowe aloud You shall doe better to lay aside this objection till a Presbyterian Government have healed these sore breaches in these Churches here Answer to CHAP. XV. ARticle 1. saith We hold the Magistrate cannot lawfully compell men to enter into a Covenant with God Answ It appeares by his Margent he meanes a Nationall Covenant But you must take his owne words as for proofe he brings none and I beleeve hee cannot but Barr. and Rob. which never came there and the Apologie which as he saith lies by him As long as I lived there I never heard or knew the Churches held so But he must have leave to say any thing Marg. saith that many of us hold the Magistrate hath nothing to doe in matters of Religion Let him know and all others that all the Churches with us doe abhorre that vile opinion Some I beleeve Answ of Road-Island some others banished from us doe hold so but those are gone out from us and are not of us as it is said 1 John 2.19 If he had considered this distinction of the blessed Apostle hee durst not have said many of us hold so This must goe amongst other aspersions to be revoked of and recalled Art 2. That we hold that Christians may and ought to set up new Church●s and practise in them all Gods ordinances and that 1 without the consent of a Christian State 2 yea against their commands 3 their peremptorie cammands ☜ 4 and against the established lawes of that State 5 yea and in the midst of and against the mindes of such Churches as we freely acknowledge the true Churches of God He reserved a strange Article for the last If I had not read it Ans I

I blame him justly or no by perusing the bookes But that you may see how soberly and cautiously his quoted Authors speake of Churches using their liberty I will write their own words Ans to 32. q. 44. Wee conceive every Church hath right from Christ to transact all their Church businesse but marke the cautions If so be they be able and carry matters justly and according to the rules of the word How different are those words from his yet this is the very place he cites You say W. R. you undertake onely to tell a story of New-England Church way but now you make a story of your own and frame it and mould it after your owne fashion You can so adde and alter as to make it speake as you please that wee and our waies may seeme odious to the Churches ☞ Is this a truthing of it in love as you spoke in the last words of your Postscript and dare you pray for a blessing on your booke as in the last words of your preface you doe saying Now the blessing of heaven goe with this poore Pamphlet when it is so stuffed and bumbasted with such fearefull untruths and slaunders Art 3. All which Church matters wee claime power saith he to our selves to doe without any Authority concurrence or assistance of any other Churches or Officers Authority is either immediately from the person Answer that some call coercive and forcing or from the rule and that some call doctrinall no lesse binding then the other The former in transacting Church matters wee use not for want of Scripture grounds that Christ hath given any other Churches or their Officers power over us The latter upon al occasions we improve by calling in the assistance of other Churches and hold our selves bound to follow their counsell as farre as it is grounded on the word Art 6. He saith we hold the Church if she conceives that the Officers doe not use their power well may resume it unto her selfe If he meanes while they abide in their Office they may doe this Answ wee must professe against his relation for if the Officers doe abuse their power the Church exhorts him as a father to fulfill his Ministery received from the Lord as Col. 4.17 and if great neede require they may admonish him and if no other meanes will possibly cure they may at last for incorrigble going on in manifest abuse of his place excommunicate him but in no wi●e while he abides in O●fice to resume their power and enter upon his worke And observe him againe quoting his Authour to beare him out in his speeches who is not for him but against him Ans to 32. q. 58. where he saith that no member without breach of order and presuming above his place may doe our Ministeriall acts of Church Governement but the Presbyters may onely doe them Which Ans of ours doth also take off those Marginalls pag. 26. and saves us further labour and part of the 7. Art also that speakes to the same effect He saith Art 7. We hold the Officers are all but the Churches Servants in propriety of speech and the Church the Mistrie That all Officers are the Churches Servants was no strange thing to a Minister farre better then any of us 2 Cor. 4 5. Answer Our selves your servants for Christs his sake But because he must needes keepe his hands inure hee will in this as almost in all his Articles be still adding something of his owne to blurre the businesse Therefore he saith wee hold O ficers but the Church●s servants which word but implyes a vilifying of Ministers and their place whereas we have learned to esteeme them very highly for their workes sake 1. Thes 5.13 and also that they are onely servants nothing but servants whereas we know they are Governours also 2. ●● adds another expression of his owne in propriety of speech and makes a great stirre in his Marg. on that Article that a Minister should be a servant in propriety of speech whereas it is his owne addition and not our speech Answ The Officer may be said to bee a ruler and a servant too in diverse respects as Heb. 13.17 with 2 Cor. 4 5. And Christ himselfe is both and so is the greatest Prince in the world a servant to the Common weale But his spirit is loath to acknowledge this and labours to evade it by such arguments as the Bishops made use of for their sole power in the Church but wee know to be servants of the Church is no other then to bee for the Church and not the Church for them equally And so he that is a ruler in the Church may be well said to be a servant In this case the max●m of law holds good in Divinity that a King is singulis maior universis minor so the Church Officers are singulis maiores Ecclesiâ minores To Art 9. That every member except women and those under age hath equall power even with the Ministers themselves in propounding obiecting answering and iudiciall decreeing and giving sentence in all matters of the Church whatsoever whether pertaining to Doctrine or practise ●sw The relator of a story especially when hee pretends and promiseth to write nothing materiall but from his cited Authors should bee faithfull ☞ and not make bold grosly to vary from the matter manner words scope and all much lesse to cite Authors that speake against him but if you reade his Author Ans to 32 q. p. 44. the place cited even now you will finde That the Church indeede hath a right within her selfe to transact her owne matters but how according to the rights of the word did the word ever give people liberty equall with the Minister doth it not professedly condemne such doing in the Church and yet this is the only printed Author of our own that wee can come at brought to iustifie this absurd Article Besides all men know that are seen in our wayes it is against our principles to have people propound and give sentence in the Churches decrees these being acts of rule proper to the Officers as Ans to 32. q. 57. 58. plainely speakes and yet he fa●th we hold the people have power yea equall power and that with the Ministers themselves even in all matters of the Church whatsoever Now what will become of his Marg. on this Art full of exclamation and clamout This body saith he is all an eye all tongue all Governours all teachers contrary to the Apostles rule c. wherein he fights with a shadow and we leave him so to doe 5. He tells us in Art 10. and the Marg. that wee hold all things ought to have a full debate in the presence of the whole society untill all be satisfied Marke his words how large 1 All things 2 A full debate 3 It ought to be so before the whole societie till all be satisfied And not one word we can come at to prove any of these universalls

cause here you see is 1 faction 2 partiality 3 both those appearing 4 obstinacy 5 continuing in obstinacy after meanes used according to rule all these before the censure of admonition passed but you in your relation leave out all these words of your Authors and put in such of your owne as will not so much enforce a censure as these and then taxe us at your pleasure and make bitter invectives against us in your Margent If I should have retorted and said This dealing of yours is harsh uncharitable foolish destructive c. it would have troubled you yet you are but a single person those whom you reproach are whole Churches many Churches of Saints but wee have learned what the Apostle saith 1 Pet. 2.23 and to forbeare This Article being thus laid prostrate there is nothing at all in his Marginal extraction worth answer He blames us Art 12. That we deny unto the Church all power to make any particular rules or lawes in things indifferent conducing to the better Governement of her selfe and more orderly and edifying performance of Gods worship accord●ng to the generall rules of Scripture c. 1. He hath falsified his printed Authors alledged for this Art Ans Answ to 32. q. 66. Col. Cap. 7. where is not a syllable of things indifferent for whereas they indeede denie Churches power to make lawes about Church Governement c. their words meaning are expressed it is only in such matters where the Scripture hath made lawes already and therefore they say The Churches have no power to make lawes but to observe those lawes which Christ hath given and commanded and doe alleadge Mat. 28.20 Deut. 33.3 Iohn 20.27 None I hope can thinke this a thing indifferent for us to add lawes to Christ his owne lawes and this is all they say 2. If you meane by making of lawes inferring of plaine and necessary conclusions from their proper grounds in Scripture wee grant a power in a Church so to doe yet so as they shall not be binding unlesse the evidence of the consequence be made appeare as Rom. 14.5.22.23 But i● by making of lawes you meane a drawing of conclusions from r●mote Principles such as the Bishops were wont to doe All things must bee decently done and in order therefore a Surplice a Crosse in Baptisme a bowing at the Altar c. we deny it as an inlet of all humane inventions Many of the Marginalls of this 6 Chap. are already answered some few remaine as Who would not long to be churched seeing they are indued with such a vast power this is a sweet morsell no marvell peoples teeth so water after it c. p. 23. I can tell you who longs not for Churching it is W. R. himselfe who with heart ●sw hand and pen thus opposeth it but why doe not his teeth also water after it It is I suppose because the people have a voyce in Church matters and Ministers cannot carrie all 2 Why doe you thinke W. R. that peoples teeth should so much water after this way seeing they are under many watchfull eyes a strict Covenant disgraces in the world sharpe censures and overharsh too if all you say be true therefore why should they so much desire these waies thinke you they being so crosse to corruption that would have elbowroom unlesse they did see and feele our beauty and warmth of Christ in them This is the true and reall cause The word saith h and the Sacraments should be both setled on the Ministry Goe preach and baptize c. Why doe wee separate them pag. 23. To Pre●ch by Office which is the preaching that Christ there gives in commission to his Disciples being called to be Apostles is proper only to Ministers ●swer who are to waite upon teaching Rom. 12.7 and this preaching and the administration of the Sacraments are ever joyned together in the same person But there is a preaching in a large sense i. e sometimes to apply a word of instruction exhortation consolation if necessity shall require according to their talent being invited thereunto and this may be common to other godly and able Christians though not called into Office as Art 8. 1. 4. where the whole Church except the Apostles were scattered by persecution and they that were so scattered without distinction of Ministers or people went to and fro preaching therefore others besides Ministers in some case may preach the word if you take preach in a larger sense 3. For the two instances hee brings p. 24. of Peoples unabilitie of iudging electing voting c. from Holland and Boston c. 1. The best people on earth may have their houre of temptation and personall failings doe not hinder the goodnesse or truth of the rule ●nsw 2. What Church in the world hath not possibly first or last given or else may give strange instances of humane frailty but still you count their way good 3. Even those Churches you mention were able at other times both before and since to act as becomes prudent and godly men though possibly at that time they might shew themselves to be but men 4. These persons recovered out of their error and lay not in it you should have mentioned this as well as that If the Officers through scruple of conscience perhaps refuse to act according to their i. e. the peoples minde they will they hold they may call fourth any other member to do and enable him with power to doe all that their Officers should have done except Sacraments A most unjust and slanderous report and without any word of proofe Answ so now we must father it upon him and doe here require him to prove it for almost every word is an aggravation but I study brevity and mentioned this before Art 9. They complaine in print that their Ministers are slighted amongst them yea trampled upon by some And mentions for this Cot. on 2 vial p. 24. of whose words judge and you shall not finde one word to warrant him All his invectives against us on the 11. Article Marg. for extorting a consent from such as dissent from us is exceeding slaunderous and not a word true nor any tittle of proofe for none are ever admonished for dissenting but for faction and obstinacy as his Authors speake as was said before Let me heare tell the Reader there are sundry unsound and uncouth passages in this chap. as indeede through the whole booke which for brevity I am forced to passe by and indeede not worth my time I intreate thee to take all his sayings with a graine of salt knowing from what spirit they proceede Answer to CHAP. VII IN this 1. Art there are three things that will be found too light 1. He affirmes we say all men are bound to be setled members of a particular Church Yet in his Margent he affirmes Answ we allow some to bee admitted transient members for a time only Now to be setled and yet transient are