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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30650	A vindicaton of churches, commonly called Independent, or, A briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, Twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, Independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by William Prinne ... / Henry Burton ...	Burton, Henry, 1578-1648.	1644 (1644)	Wing B6176; ESTC R20892	61,118	78

each Congregation I am sure your Congregations admit neither augmentation nor diminution but according to the capacitie of every Parish 2. Within what precincts Christs Churches are not limited either to place or number 3. What set Stipends allowed Sufficient more or lesse 4. When and where Churches should assemble For when at times convenient For where Not necessarily in this or that place 5. Who shall prescribe extraordinary times of fasting or thanksgiving to them upon just occasions If the occasion be the Churches peculiar Interest the Church agrees upon the time But if it be publick concerning the Politick body of the State whereof we are native members in whose weale or woe we sympathize either we keep dayes of our own appointment extraordinary or if the Civill State command and appoint a day we refuse not to observe it 6. Who shall rectifie their Church-Covenants Discipline Censures Government if erroneous or unjust First Each Church useth her best meanes left her of Christ within her selfe Secondly If need require she useth the help of Sister-Churches Thirdly If any other as the Civill State be not satisfied shee * refuseth not to yeeld an account of her actions being required 7. Shew us say you a sufficient satisfactory Commission from Gods Word for all they doe or desire before they gather any Churches Brother Prynne you say you will pump out our thoughts yea it seemes you will exanclate pumpe out every drop that is in us But stay brother you are not yet a Magistrate And 2. wee hope you will not take up againe the Oath ex Officio to pump out all our secrets And 3. Though I have for my part dealt very freely with you as my brother all along yet give me leave to keep a Reserve Done● ad Triarios redieritres untill it come to a dead lift in case we shall be brought before * Princes and Rulers to give an account of what we doe or desire And 4. you put us upon too unreasonable a taske to satisfie you in all that we DOE or DESIRE First make your particular exceptions and demands for this or that and then we shall know the better how to shape you an Answer as you see we have here done What are all your books of Law cases all the Volumes of the Casuists to the resolution upon general grounds of incident matters which could not be ruled till they happened and yet the Government of States is one and the doctrine of the Scripture in all generally necessary poynts cleare And we desire you not too too much to grow upon us when you see we are so coming and free The fourth Interrogatory This is much like the next before For that was about Ministers power to gather Churches this concerning the peoples power in uniting themselves in a Church choosing their Minister erecting such a Government as they conceive most sutable to the Scripture And so all manner of hereticks may set up Churches and all manner of heresies sects be brought in I answer as before A Church is a Citie of God which by her Charter becomes a Citie being called of God and by the same Charter the Scripture chuseth her own Officers and sets up no other government but what her Charter prescribes If any other doe otherwise and doe pervert the Scripture it is not to be imputed to the Church of Christ Her liberties are no law for others licentiousnesse It was so in the Apostles times and the next ages after The true Churches liberties were no true cause of so many heresies no more then the Christians of old were the cause of the calamities of the Citie or Empire of Rome because Nero and other Tyrants falsly charged them and as injuriously dealt with them Nor may we cast away the priviledges of Christians because others abuse them Yea whether we use our priviledges or no errours and heresies will be The Apostles and Apostolick Churches could neither keep nor cast them out as is shewed before But brother where you say that if this liberty of setting up an Independent Church-government be admitted then by the selfe-same reason they must have a like libertie to elect erect what Civil forme of government they please to set up a new Independent Republick Kingdome c. By the selfe-same reason Surely by no reason at all Shew us a reason hereof and take all And you know that Republicks Kingdomes are Independent though not of Churches electing erecting It is unsatisfiable injury and extreame irrationality thus to argue for hath Christ given the same command to his people as such who are not of this world nor their Kingdome as he hath done to them in spirituals which he commands them to practise whosoever forbids 2. They set up no forme but take that which is prescribed which God hath not done in civill government but left it free 1 Pet. 2 Rom. 13. The fifth Interrogatory Herein you make a comparison between Presbyteriall and Independent Churches Why not that as well as this And if this why doe we not shew solid proofe of it I answer We desire to enjoy ours without making comparison with yours For proofe we have shewed sufficient Then to a second Quere the answer is not the Minister alone nor the Congregation alone but both together admit members and set up Christs Government not their own And how ever you make us a Conventicle consisting of inconsiderable ignorant members I beleeve brother Prynne when you shall have any thing to doe with the most contemptible of such Conventicles as you esteeme us you will not altogether find us such as you are pleased to terme us And for Nationall Parliaments States wee honour them with whatsoever honour is due unto them as Gods * Word commandeth us And for a Nationall Councell as this is called to advise not to be peremptory Judges in the matters of God over our consciences wee detract not their due honour too as they are pious and learned men 2. Where you would have them have the same power in a Parliament and Synod that they have in a Church if they be members it is answered that all power is restrained to its own sphere and place so that we may have a greater power in another kind and yet not that as no Parliament man hath the power of a Master of a family in the Parliament though he have a greater The sixth Interrogatory This Interrogatory hath sundry branches the answer whereunto respectively will intimate what they be 1. Wee say as before None of our Ministers doe by any usurped authoritie gather Churches 2. We cannot conceive that any law of the Land is against the setting up of Christs kingdome in the hearts of his people and in those Congregations called and gathered by the voyce of his Word Nor doth the Ministery of Christs word more in this then it did by John Baptist Christ himselfe and his Apostles when they called Christian Congregations out of the Jewes Nationall Church

Reason Because it is Antichristian to deny Iesus to bee the Christ that is the onely King Priest and Prophet of his Church Hee is an Antichrist that denieth any of these three Offices But to deny Christ to be the onely King of his Church is to deny him in one of his Incommunicable Offices And they thus deny Iesus to bee the Christ that place man with Christ in his throne that set humane Lawes and Customes of all Nations cheek by jowle with the Word of God Here Jesus is denied to be the Christ I could here adde many more reasons to those but these may suffise that you may see there bee some Reasons which your Independents can produce and those so solid as the Gates of hell shall not prevaile against But say you if we thus claime exemption from such binding Decrees of men in the matters of Christ and that in point of conscience then may also Papists Anabaptists and all other ●ects claim the like exemptiens upon the like groun●s Brother for that I hope you will put a difference between orthodox Churches and he●erodox But I say againe for any mans conscience bee it never so erroneous as that of Papists yet certainly the conscience of such simply considered in it selfe nor you nor any man in the world hath any thing to doe further then to instruct and admonish and labour to enforme and iectifie enforce it you may not But shall we tolerate Popery and so idolatry in our Land I answer ●t is one thing to tolerate Popery and Idolatry publickly in a land and another to tolerate a man in his Conscience Magistrates may not tolerate open Popery and Idolatry to be set up in the land but the conscience o● a Papist they are no masters or judges of If the Civill Magistrate see any of Gods Commandements actually violated hee beareth not the sword for naught evill actions he must punish but hee hath no power over the conscience of any to punish a man for that so long as he makes no open breach of Gods Commandements or the just lawes of the Land And so in the rest And brother in your twelfth Question you confesse so much reproving but how justly you Independents for censuring the very hearts and spirituall estates of others and alleadging that Scripture that forbids men to judge because God onely knows mens hearts Now brother that which you deny to others as to bee judges of mens hearts and spirituall estates why will you either assume it to your selfe or attribute it to others by placing them in Christ● throne and thereby displacing Christ himselfe As the Apostle saith Who art thou that judgest anothers servant To his Master he standeth or falleth Much more who art thou that judgest Gods servant And ver. 10. And why dost thou judge thy brother Or why dost thou set at ●aught thy brother We shall all stand at the Iudgement se●t of Christ Christ therefore is the ●ole Iudge o● every mans conscience even hee alone that is the Iudge of quicke and dead And brother let me put it to your Conscience Doe you think it equall that either your conscience should be a rule of mine or mine of yours And if no one mans conscience may be the rule of anothers certa●nly neither may all the mens consciences in the world be the Iudge of any one mans 2 How ever we finde neither rule example nor reason from Scripture to force men to Religion originally ye the R●bins say if man kept the seven precepts of Noah hee might not bee forced further The eleventh Question Concerning this question it containeth in it nothing but grievous invectives against the way you call Independent You call it a Seminary of Schismes and dangerous divisions in Church State So did Tertullus the ●ews Advocate against Paul charge him for a pestilent fellow and a mover of sedition among al the Iews throughout the world Acts 24. 5. You pretend to ponder it in the ballance of Scripture or right reason but you neither shew us Scripture not right reason to ballance it in You call it a Floodgate to let in an Inundation of herefies errors sects libertinisme and lawlesnesse without means of suppressing them when introduced For this you bring Mr. Williams his bloody tenent Now suppose him or his booke hereticall will you make the way of Christ so too There was one Judas a traitor shall therefore all the rest of the Apostles or their Apostolicall calling be so too You alleadge also Anabaptisticall ●ntinomian hereticall Ath●ishicall opinions as of the Soules mortality Divorce at pleasure will you therefore father all these upon Ch●ists Kingly government In Luthers time ●undry heresies sprung up was Luther therefore either the cause or occasion of them Doe we not know that Mothes are bied in the parest cloth And the dunghills send forth strongest savours when the Sunne shines hottest Is either the cloth the proper cause of the moth or the Sunne of the stinking vapour Never greater errors have bin then since the Gospell hath clearly shined forth True it is indeed that th●se divisions and diversities of opinions are with bleeding hearts to be bewailed But shall the Gospell of the Kingdome beare the burthen of all This were as with the Christians in Rome in Neroes time when any judgement of God fell upon the City he would still im●●●e it to the Christians and punish them for it But we are taught better When the good Husband-man sowed pure wheat in in his field the enemy came and supersemina●ed tares shall wee therefore blame the wheat because the t●res come up with them But that you impu●e to this way libertinisme and lawlesnesse Good brother conside● are we Libertines or are wee lawlesse Nay may wee not herein plead for our selves that in all things we indeavou● to conforme ou● selves wholly to the law of Christ● and if many thing we off●nd ju●●ly any just law o●●h● l●n● wee re●u●e not to suffer Only brother le● not ●a● Impe●iall Edict be revived that if any confessed themselves to be Christians they should be put to death so such as you call 〈…〉 should for this very name suffer As Tertullian said Nomen pro●●●i●ine when the very name of Christian was taken for a crime ●nd for meanes of suppressing errors what meanes could suppresse those many errors that sprung up to the successive ages o● the Church Was not the word of God the onely meanes and not humane power yea humane power is as well a meanes to maintain heresies as to suppresse them You know what Constantine and his sonne did to maintain the Arrian heresie And orthodox Independent Churches are as good means as any other together with the care and countenance of the Magistrate if it may be had to defend them and inable them to send forth labourers without which the Presbytery will bee as barren breast and womb as any other The twelfth Question The sundry passages of

never so wicked But to your reasons First For else say you Paul and Barnabas being Apostles themselves might have decided that controversie at Antioch without sending to Ierusalem Answ. 1. By your favour brother Barnabas was not to speak properly an Apostle though an Apostolicall man 2. They argued with those Legalists at Antioch sufficiently to convince them but they comming from Judea and pretending the use of circumcision and Moses Law to be still in force in the Church at Jerusalem and the controversie being between two great parties the Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles hereupon the Church at Antioch thought it requisite for the fuller satisfaction to all parties to send Paul and Barnabas to the Apostles and Elders at Jerusalem And 3. because Paul and Barnabas are thus sent doth it follow that they were not sufficient yea Paul alone as an Apostle infallibly guided by the holy Ghost to have decided the question at Antioch As no doubt sufficiently they did though not so satisfactorily to all And 4. that they are thus by the Church at Antioch sent to the Apostles and Church at Jerusalem here is a good example for the use of communion of Churches as in doubtfull cases to consult one with another 2. Else say you the Church at Antioch would have sent to none to resolve their doubts but to the Apostles onely and not to the Elders I answer In that they sent to the Elders also it shewes the respect that one Church should have to another 2. Those Elders were men endowed with the gifts of the holy Ghost 3. Though they had not infallibility as the Apostles had yet their assent to the determination was a witnesse-bearing to the truth thereof 3. Else say you Paul and Barnabas would have put the question to the Apostles onely not to the Elders and Church as well as to them vers. 4 5 6. This is answered in the former 4. Else the Apostles would not have called all the Elders and brethren to consult v. 6. when themselves might have done it alone I answer 1. Though the Apostles might have done it alone yet they would not but called together the Elders and Brethren yea and the whole Church at Jerusalem vers. 4 22. hereby to give a precedent to all Presbyters or Elders of Churches that in cases of difference arising they call the whole Church together for assistance and counsell therein 2. In so doing the Apostles diminished nothing of that Judicial power and authority which Christ left with them for deciding of controversies being infallibly guided by the holy Ghost while they thought it not fit to doe such things in a corner which concerned the whole Church 5. Peter and Iames say you would not have argued the case so largely and proved it by Arguments and Scriptures as they did one after another but have peremptorily resolved it without dispute had they sate and determined it by their extraordinary infallible power I answer This followes no more then the former For the Arguments they used with the conclusion were by the direction of the holy Ghost And 2. The holy Ghost is not so peremptory but will have his truths examined by the Scriptures as Acts 17. 11. The Bereans are commended by the holy Ghost for examining Pauls Sermon by the Scripture though hee were an Apostle and spake by the holy Ghost And 3. the Churches assent was taken in for a witnesse ex abundanti 6. The finall resolution say you Letters and Canons of this Synod had run onely in the Apostles names had they proceeded onely by their Apostolicall infallible authority and not in the names of the Elders and brethren too I answer There is as little reason in this as in all the rest of your reasons for then by this reason sundry of Pauls Epistles which were all dictated by the holy Ghost did not proceed from that infallibility of Spirit alone wherewith the Apostle was guided because we find others not Apostles joyned with him As 1 Cor. 1. 1. Paul called to be an Apostle of Iesus Christ and Softhenes a brother to the Church of God c. And 2 Cor. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ and Timothy a brother to the Church c. And Gal. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle c. and all the brethren that are with me to the Churche of Galatia c. So Phil. 1. 1. Col. 1. 1. 1 Thess. 1. 1. Paul and Sylvanus and Timotheus to the Church c. In all which places though there was but one Apostle guided with infallibility of the holy Ghost to write the Scriptures yet many brethren are joyned in the salutation of the Churches and yet Paul as Apostle did write those Epistles and not simply as a brother or fellow-servant with them of Jesus Christ Neither are those brethren so named accounted the Pen-men of the Scripture as Paul of right is Thus you see brother there was no necessity that either the Apostles names should be put alone because they only were guided by the Spirits infallibility or that the names of the Elders and Brethren should not be put without a necessary conclusion deduced thence that the Decree there was therefore binding as being the Decree of a Synod and so exemplary for all Parliaments Councels Synods to make the like binding Decrees But good brother for all your punctuall quotations of that Scripture you doe not all this while tell us which is the main of all that which we find in the 28. verse of that chapter IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS TO LAY VPON YOU NO GREATER BVRTHEN THEN THESE NECESSARY THINGS Now brother we chalenge you to shew us any Parliament Councell Synod ever since the Apostles that could or can say thus IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS to determine controversies of religion to make and impose Canons to bind all men c. Shew this to us at this time and we will obey But if you cannot as you never can never let any man presse upon us that Scripture that Synod which hath no parallel in the whole world and so is no precedent pattern for any Councell Synod Parliaments Let me conclude with a passage of the learned and famous Chamierus that grand Antagonist of Bellarmins Bellarmine upon the same Scripture you alledge Act. 15. as also our late Prelates have usually done would deduce the same conclusion that you doe for humane authority in binding mens consciences To which Chamierus thus answereth that this consequence holds not Quia non eadem sit authoritas Apostolorum reliquorum Ecclesiae Pastorum Because there is not the same authoritie of the Apostles and of other Pastors of the Church For with those the Holy Ghost was extraordinarily present so as what they propounded did simply proceed of God But other Pastors have no such extraordinary assistance of the Spirit and therefore their Decrees are not to be paralleld with the Apostles Decrees Which is a speciall difference

in binding of the conscience which hath it selfe for witnesse and God for the onely Iudge therefore when it hath any thing commanded of God it must needs stand bound Where inter caetera is to be noted That God is the onely Iudge and binder of the Conscience The great question in controversie at this day Obj. But you will here object That although as before you say of Priests a Councel or Synod have not this authority to make and impose binding decrees yet a Parliament hath and you deduce it from this Synod Act. 15. Answ. Now truly brother by your favour this doth no way hold proportion that that which you call a Synod as a patterne for binding Decrees should not qualifie a Synod of Divines with the like power and yet transmit it over to a Parliament for binding authority over the consciences of a whole Nation surely that Apostolike Assembly or Church meeting was neither a Parliament nor Diet nor Senate nor any such thing that you should build any such power of Parliaments upon it for the making of binding Decrees over the consciences of men Therefore good brother be not so peremptory but take in your top-sail too high to bear up against so stiffe a gale both of Scripture and Reason But I come to your twelfth and last Interrogatory The twelfth Interrogatory This Interrogatory is concerning the lawfull coercive power of Civil Magistrates in suppressing Heresies c. Or setters up of new forms of Ecclesiasticall Government c. For answer hereunto Wee do acknowledge and submit unto the lawfull coercive power of civill Magistrates according to the Scripture Rom. 13. But brother however you must distinguish between mens consciences and their practices The conscience simply considered in it self is for God the Lord of the conscience alone to judge as before But for a mans practices of which alone man can take cognizance of if they be against any of Gods Commandments of the first or second Table that appertains to the civill Magistrate to punish who is for this cause called Custos utriusque Tabulae The keeper of both Tables and therefore the Apostle saith Rom. 13. 3 4. For Rulers are not a terror to good WORKS but to the evill Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power DO that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same for hee is the Minister of God to thee for good but if thou DO that which is evill be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vain for hee is the Minister of God a revenger to execute wrath upon him that DOTH evill So as we see here what is the object of Civill power to wit actions good or bad Not bare opinions not thoughts not conscience but actions And your self exempts the preaching of the Gospel and truth of God from being restrained by the civill Magistrate But now brother the time hath been and somewhere is and will be that the * truth of God hath been with-holden in unrighteousnesse and by the civill Magistrate punished with death being condemned for heresie And you see in these dayes great diversities of mens opinions and judgements one judging thus another so you think my way erroneous and I may do as much for you But do you or I DO that which is evill in actually breaking of any of Gods commandments or any just lawes of the land then we lie open to course of civill justice but so long as wee differ only in opinion which of us shall be punished first or which of us is in the error you write books I write against them yet sub judice lis est who shall be Judge you or I surely neither Among other things you would have the civill Magistrate to suppresse restrain imprison confine banish the setters up of new forms of Ecclesiasticall government without lawfull authority It may be you will involve me in the number But what if I prove that which you call a new form to be the old form and the lawfull authority of setting it up to be of Christ Must I therefore undergo all these your terrible censures because you so judge What if your judgement herein be altogether erroneous What punishment then is due to him that condemnes the innocent you may be a civill Judge one day remember then brother that if I come before you you meddle not with my conscience nor with mee for it If I shall offend any of your just lawes punish mee and spare not But if you should make a law like to that of the Jewes that who so shall confesse Christ to be the Son of God and the only Law-giver Lord King Governour over Consciences Churches and not man not Assemblies not Councels or Senates though after much Fasting Prayers Disputes as you say I confesse I shall be apt to transgresse that law but yet take you heed how you punish me for that trangression with an Ense recidendum or I wot not what club-law So ends your Book and so my Answer Now brother you have since published a third Book partly in answer to your first Answerer and partly touching Mr Joh. Goodwin I leave the parties interessed to acquit themselves Only your stating the Question in the conclusion of the Book I could not omit You sta●● it thus Whether a whole representative Church and State hath not as great or greater Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction over the whole Realm Churches with all the members then any one Independent Minister or Congregation challenge over their members Brother I answer if you can prove your Jurisdiction good we will easily grant it to be greater But if the Jurisdiction of the Churches you call Independent be good as having Christ for the founder and owner of it as we have cleerly proved then certainly it will prove the greater For magna est veritas praevalet for Christs kingdome shall stand up when all opposite earthly kingdomes like earthen vessels shall with his iron rod be dashed in pieces This for the Clause Another passage in the same Book is touching my person where you say That none of us three-brethren-Sufferers suffered for opposing Bishops legall authority or any Ceremonies by act of Parliament established Here brother give me leave to answer for my self First for all manner of Ceremonies of humane ordinance imposed upon the conscience in the worship of God I openly for the space almost of a twelvemoneth immediately before my troubles preached against them every Lords day out of Col. 2. from the 8th verse to the end of the Chapter so as when I was summoned into the High Commission Court the Articles read against mee were not only for my two Sermons Nov. 5th but also for those other Sermons against the Ceremonies so as this might challeng to be one ingredient in my censure in Star-Chamber and no lesse then a pillory matter And concerning my opposing of Bishops themselves not only their extravagancies for which I also was censured and suffered you may remember