you justifie them as men begotten to God and you justifie their standing there Thus doe you sow pillowes of flatteries under their elbowes But you neede not to feare any mans comming to steale your Disciples away by night as the Jewes gave out falsely of Christs naturall body for that was but a lie therefore let no man presume to lie by their example But you say therefore you ought to watch against us and ought not to sleepe least they should be stolne * away I answer so did the Jewes watch the naturall body of Christ and yet he by his power raised himselfe and also departed from them even so by the same power will he raise from the death of sinne many that are amongst you and will cause them to separate themselves from your false worshipping and from you that are false worshippers and he will tell them where he feedeth his sheepe and causeth them to lie downe at noone * Neither can you cleare your selfe by saying you â—iâ—ty them and love them and would not have such a sword as a tolerátion put into their hands as you are pleased to say to hurt them though some amongst them say you might perhaps use it better I pray you feare not this which you here call an error on the right hand but rather feare your Church if as you say your Liturgie and Ceremonies stand still in force which you say were the causes that bred the Separates * I tell you if the sa ne cause remaine you may justly feare it will take the same effect you have also as great cause to feare the prophanenesse and Atheisme which is seated in the hearts of most of your people but onely that you blesse your selfe in hope that all ignorant and scandalous persons shall be driven out But I pray you tell me whither doe you intend to drive them if you leave them anywhere in the Land they will be still of your Church except you will make you a new Church But if you should drive them out of the Land you would leave many places of the Land uninhabited for the generalitie of the people in most parts be ignorant and prophane and thus you may see your selfe in a great streight and therfore you have great cause to feare Further you say the Author would intimate that the honest soules are with them and would be for their way but as for those that are against their way and Toleration they are not such honest soules If this Author be the Protestation Protested you have wrested his words for he hath not said they are not such honest soules neither hath he entred into judgement against any But further you say you would have them know that the honest soules are not onely with them for in the Church of England say you there ever have beene and are honest Ministers and people that have rejected our way and any that fell to it nay the greatest Nonconformists and most able in that way you say have written the most against our way and laboured upon all occasions to preserve the people from falling to us For answer whereof I must tell you that the Ministers and people were never the honester for ' rejecting of that way which hath beene proved to be the way of God though they were the greatest Nonconformists in the world for it is not our way properly but the gift of the Father which he hath given us to walke in and surely it is no signe of honesty to commend the Saints in their infirmities or to condemne them in their workes of pietie I say it is no signe of an honest soule to speak evill of such a holy way I tell you I take Hugh Latimer to be an honest soule though he have declared both by word and writing against such as you and affirmed that a lay man fearing God is much more fit to understand the holy Scripture then a proud and arrogant Priest yea then the Bishop himselfe be hee never so great and glistering in all his pontificalls and such honest soules though they are not of the Clergie but of those whom you call the Layetie are the fittest men on the earth to make Churches and to chuse their owne Ministers as I said before though they be Trades-men and such as these have dependancie upon Christ alone whose way is properly the sincere way of God And as for any that have writ against this way or against those who walke uprightly in it it will not make much for their account for that part of their worke shall burne as well as yours though they may be saved and as for these Authors which here you bring which have beene so carefull as you say to keepe the people from falling into that way I have reade some of their bookes and found the most of them prophesie sad things against he Church of England except she repent THeir sixth Reason you say is that they are good men and men of great gifts and therefore they should be tolerated to have such Churches it is pitty they should leave the Land and wee loose their prayers Indeede Mr. Edwards this may be some other mans Reason on their behalfe but I hardly beleeve that they lived so farre from good neighbours that they must thus set forth their owne praise But for answer to this Reason in the first place you say the better men they be and the more able the worse to set up separated Churches To this I answer that I ever conceived by the Scripture that those that Christ ordained to plant his Churches were good men as it was said of Barnabas that he was a good man * and the very like was said of Stephen * and therefore me thinks you are shreudly mistaken But further you say they will the more indanger the peace of the Kingdome and make the Schismes greater I answer If it be good and able men that indanger the peace of the Kingdome you may doe well to perswade the Parliament to keepe still in your Church all the dumb and drunken Priests for they are bad enough and unable to doe good and yet of my knowledge they are very able to disturbe the peace and to breed strife and to bring Gods judgements upon the Land which is able to make a greater Schisme than you are a ware of Secondly you say for their prayers you have the benefit of them as well when they are absent as present and some of them have saâ— say you they prayed more for England when out of it than in it Indeede if they did so they did well for that was their duty but I suppose you for your particular had little benefit of those prayers and that because God hath hardened your heart even against them and all good men Thirdly For these their prayers you have rewarded them with an accusation namely that they left the Kingdome when it was in greatest danger and in most neede of helpe and provided for
very suggestion of Sathan into the hearts of our first Parents for they having a desire of some thing more then was warranted by God tooke unto them the forbidden fruit as you would have the Lords Churches to doe when you say they must take some others besides these Churches and Officers and that to interpose authoritatively and these something else you make to be Apostles Evangelists and Elders of other Churches whereas you confessed before that these are the furniture of Christs Kingdome and wee know their authoritie was limitted within the bounds of the Word of God as first If any of them would be greater he must be servant to all Secondly they were forbidden to be Lords over Gods heritage Thirdly they were commanded to teach the people to observe onely those things which Christ had commanded them And whereas you seeme to affirme that these Offices were extraordinary and ceased and yet the Churches have still neede of them You seeme to contradict your selfe and would faine cure it againe in that some other way which you say you have to supply the want of them but this other way you have not yet made known You presuppose it may be by some Sinods and Councels to make a conjunction of the whole If you meane such a Counsell as is mentioned Acts 15. 4. 22 consisting of Apostles and Elders with the whole Church then you have said no more than you have said before and that which we grant for this is still the furniture of the Kingdome but if you intend that your Counsell should consist of an armie of Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops Deanes Suffragans with the rest of that rabble which be for their titles names of blasphemy and such as were bred in the smoake of the pit I deny that any of these be ordained of God for they have no footing in his word therefore indeede these are a part of the fruit of the forbidden Tree which the Churches of God have taken and eaten and this seeking out inventions of their owne after that God made them righteous hath brought them into a state of Apostasie even as Ieroboams high places and Calves did the people of Israel which may plainely appeare by the Churches of Asia If these be that some other supply which you meane and have produced to helpe the Churches and Cities of God as you call them to determine for those Churches and Cities the cases of Doctrine and Discipline in stead of those many Ministers which you conceive them now to want it tends to make as they have now done a conjunction not onely of all the Churches professing one faith into one body but also of all the Armies of the Man of Sinne and so to confound the Church and the world together which the Ministers of the Gospell ought to divide by separating the precious from the vile And whereas you affirme The Independent Congregations now have but few Ministers It is very true for indeede they are but a few people and a few hands will feede a few mouths sufficiently if God provide meat But whereas you affirme That those Congregations may have no Officer at all by their owne grounds and yet be independent I thinke they conceive by those grounds the Office onely of Pastor and Teacher but not that the Church of God hath need at any time of the helpe of any other then God hath given and set in his Church which be all the Officers that are before mentioned as Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers and to have recourse to any for counsell helpe or assistance either of Church or Ministry which is not of Christs owne were very ridiculous For it is recorded Ephe. 4. 11. 12. That he gave these for the gathering together of the Saints for the worke of the Ministry and for the edification of the body of Christ being so gathered The time they must continue is till all the Saints be in the unitie of faith The reason wherefore they were given was to keepe people from being tossed too and fro with every winde of Doctrine And these are they by whom all the body is coupled and knit together by every joynt for the furniture thereof according to the effectuall power which is in the measure of every part and receiveth increase of the body unto the edifying of it selfe in love And this is according to the promise that Christ made Matth. 28. 19. 20. to be with his Ministers in teaching his people to the end of the world And thus you may see Mr. Edwards you cannot gather from our owne words that we have neede of the helpe of any other Churches or Ministers to interpose as you unjustly affirme as it may plainely appeare by Mr. Robinsons owne words in the Justification of the Separation pag. 121. 122. These are his words It is the Stewards duty to make provision for the family but what if he neglect this duty in the Masters absence Must the whole family starve yea and the wife also Or is not some other of the family best able to be employed for the present necessity The like he saith concerning the government of a Ship of an Armie and of Common wealths alluding to the Church of Christ And further expresseth that as a private Citizen may become a Magistrate so a private member may become a Minister for an action of necessity to be performed by the consent of the rest c. Therefore it appeares plainely by all that hath binsaid that the Churches of Christ may be truely constituted according to the Scripture and subsist a certaine time without Pastor and Teacher and enjoy the power of Christ amongst themselves having no dependancie upon any other Church or Churches which shall claime Authority or superiority over them And thus much for your first Reason NOw in your second Reason which runneth upon the calling of the Ministry you affirme That the government of the Independent Congregations is not of divine institution Which I utterly denie and will prove it by disproveing the following Instances by which you affirme to prove it Whereas you affirme That their Independencie forces them to have Ministers without Ordination I Answer it is a plaine case by the foregoing Answer to your first Reason that you speake untruely for their practise is there made knowne to be otherwise and if you will still affirme that they have not power so to practise you will thereby deny the truth of the Scriptures for the Apostles were commanded to teach the Churches to observe all things whatsoever Christ had commanded them But Christ commanded the Apostles to ordaine Elders in every Church by election therefore the Apostles taught the Churches to ordaine Elders by Election also And whereas you bid us produce one instance if we can for an ordinary Officer to be made without Ordination it is needlesse for we whom you call Independant strive for no such thing as you have proved it plainely out of Mr. Robinsons Booke Apol. Chap.
the way of government given by Christ Jesus the King of peace is the way of peace and righteousnesse And whereas you affirme That if the controversie touching Circumcision should have beene ended in the Church of Antiochia then parties must have beene Iudges Here you would seeme by this to make the whole Church of Antioch leavened with the Doctrine of Justification by Circumcision which to doe is a very great slander as it appeares by Paul Barnabas opposing them there and that Churches sending Paul and Barnabas to have the Churches advise at Ierusalem concerning this matter But whereas you affirme That the Church of Antiochia judged it unequall to decide the case among themselves I answer That they judged it unequall is more than is expressed in that place but if that should be granted it will make against you for their reason in sending the matter to Ierusalem was because the parties were members of the Church of Ierusalem as it appeares by Acts. â—5 1. 5. 24. The first verse sheweth that they were men of Iudea the 5th verse proves that they were Beleevers The 24th verse declares that they went out of the Church of Ierusalem unto them And by this you may see plainely that this Chapter above all the Chapters that I can finde proves Independencie upon your owne ground that the Church of Antiochia judged it an unequall thing for them to judge the members of the Church of Ierusalem And by this you may perceive how you have either erred not knowing the Scriptures or else you have done worse in labouring to darken the truth by evasions or false glosses Thus much for your third Reason IN your fourth Reason you affirme That the light and Law of Nature with right reason is against the Independancie of particular Churches which is an unjust affirmation as hath beene plainely proved before in the Answer to your third Reason But a few words concerning this Reason You say it is found necessary in bodies naturall that the particular members doe joyne in one for the good of the whole and that the whole being greater than a part the severall parts should be subject too and ordered by the whole All this I have granted you freely already in the Answer to your second Reason where I have plainely proved unto you that the hands of the Church are ordered by the whole body in the Ordination of the Ministery And this is according to the very Scripture it selfe for the holy Ghost speaketh so in 1 Cor. 12. Comparing the Church of God to the naturall body of a man and therefore when the hand lanceth the foote it cannot be said properly to be the action of the hand alone because the hand is set a worke by the body neither can the body set the hand a worke if it be destitute of the power for the motion of the body commeth not from the hand but the motion of the hand from the body and thus you may see I have granted your comparison And the nearer politicke bodies doe goe to this Rule the more orderly they are guided for as all the cities and country of England make up but one Kingdome and all the people in England ought to be subject to one King so all the Independant Congregations in England and out of England that are guided by the Lawes of Christ make up but one Kingdome spiritually to him that is their King Now concerning Armies though I be very ignorant in these things yet thus much I conceive that all the Armies that belong to the Kingdome ought to be under the banner of their owne King even so all the particular Congregations of Christ are to be guided by the Lawes of their owne Captaine Christ who rideth before them with his garments dipt in blood and they follow after him riding upon white horses Revel. 19. 11 12. 13 14. We reade also in the Scripture of another armie which were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ And this armie I conceive consisteth of those Locusts which ascended out of the bottomlesse pit Rev. 9. And these as I told you before are Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops Deanes Prebends c. and the rest of that rable and these also have a King over them which is the Angell of the bottomlesse pit who is said to be the great red Dragon the Devill and Sathan Rev. 12. 3. 9. and 20. 2. who gave unto this armie his power and throne and great authority Rev. 13. 2. Therefore to any Counsells that are held or Canon Lawes that are enacted by any Captaine of this armie the Churches of Christ ought not to submit though they should be commanded by any Statute Law of the Kingdome for those Statute Lawes are not according to Christs Rule but ought by all Councells of State to be repealed And whereas you say It is alledged by the Separation that hold Independancie That the Magistrate of Leyden cannot governe in Delph This I hope you will grant for I am sure the Magistrates of Coventry cannot execute their office in Shrewsbury neither can the one Towne chuse Magistrates for the other and this still proves Independencie for either of these may chuse their owne and guide their owne at all times except they forfeit their Charter Now whereas you say the people alleadge for themselves that the Law of nature teacheth them to make a Covenant though there be neither precept nor practise of it in the word I suppose you misconster their sayings for the text alleadged in Thessalonians 4â— doth not prove that brotherly love was never written of in the Scripture but that it had beene so sufficiently taught of God by written precepts that it needed not to be written againe Besides I am able to prove by the Scripture that there is both precept and practise for a Church Covenant the which I will answer you in the Answer to your 6th Reason where you begge the Question Concerning what is asserted by some Divines of Scotland That in such things as are alike common to the Church and Commonwealth and have the same use in both and that whatsoever natures light directeth the one directeth the other also You know by what hath beene formerly spoken I have fully assented unto it I also agree with Amesius as farre as he agrees with the truth but to agree with you in that falsehood that the Government of independant Churches is against the light of nature and right Reason that I have denied and disproved sufficiently already Thus having answered every particular thing in this Reason that hath not beene answered already I proceede to the Fifth IN your 5th Reason you affirme That there be many Rules in Scripture that doe require the combination of Churches into Synods for proofe whereof you say that Amesius confesseth the Rules and Commands to be such as these Let all things be done to edification decently and in order Cor. 14. 26. 40. and follow after the things which make for
you Master Edwâ—rds would you have Magistrates and Kings and Princes to have more power over their subjects then over their bodies estates and lives would you have them be Lords over their consciences I pray you where must Christ reigne then Must he sit at the Magistrats footestoole and take what power the Magistrate will give him I meane spirituall power of gathering and making Churches and such Lawes as the Magistrate will give him leave to have to rule over them by Here you thrust Christ into a narrow corner for you would faine force him to give his glory to some other and his praise to some graven Image of your owne devising which he hath said he will not doe * But methinkes it were fitter for men of â—our coate to ground the Government of Christs Church upon 〈◊〉 written Word of God and not upon Statute Lawes nor Canon Lawes which you call Ecclesiasticall for it will be no disparagement to the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme for Christs Church to be governed by Christs owne Lawes The next thing is you say the Oath of Supremacie was appointed by Law for Ecclesiasticall persons to take Me thinkes that was a good consideration for Ecclesiasticall persons have beene in all ages ready to tyrannize over Kings and Emperours But now you aske the independant men as you call them a question but before you come to the question you lay downe an affirmation or a conclusion namely That these independant men give power to the Churches To which I answer If they should doe so they were very ignorant and very presumptuous for Christ hath given power to the Churches and all the Ministers that doe administer in the Churches must have the power by the Church But say you they give that power to the Churches which the Papists give unto the Pope I answer if they doe so they are blasphemers for the Papists acknowledge the Pope to be the head of the Church which title all men ought to give onely unto Christ But now to your question which is whether they will take the Oath of Supremacie or doe acknowledge in their prayers The King Defender of the Faith c. To which I answer This Ooth you say was ordained for Ecclesiasticall persons and I hope these Ecclesiasticall independant men if I may safely so call them will ever both acknowledge and maintaine that the King is supreme over all the Land therefore over the Church of the Land though it consist of the Clergie as it appeares by that Oath which you say was appointed for the Clergie But whether they doe acknowledge the King defender of the Faith c. which is the later part of your Question To this I answer It is out of all doubt that these men doe desire from their heart as well as all the Lords people that the King may defend the Faith of Christ Jesus and dayly make their prayers and supplications to God for him and that in conscience and obedience to God being commanded in his Word so to doe for they know it is a duty laid upon them for prayers and supplications must be made for Kings and all them that be in authoritie b but 〈◊〉 can make axceptable prayers but the Saints for the prayers of the wicked are abomination unto the Lord c But that all Kings have beene defenders of the Faith of Christ I deny for there is but one Faith * and those that do maintaine that true saith of our Lord Jesus Christ lawfully have that title given them and none other may lawfully have it but they You will happily say Queene Mary was not a Defender of the Faith But I say unto you if the Crowne of England give unto Kings and Queenes that title Queene Mary had as much right to the title as Queene Elizabeth c. Secondly you say they hold that the imposition of lawfull things doth make them unlawfull which you say is a strange paradoxe I answer the imposition of lawfull things doe not make them unlawfull if he that imposeth them have authoritie so to doe as for example the iâ—â—osition of an Oath is very lawfull but if it be imposed by him that hath not authoritie though it make not the Oath unlawfull simply in it selfe yet it makes the use of it unlawfull at that time both to him and to me But as for formes of prayer which you say they doe confesse to be for order and lawfull in themselves yet unlawfull being imposed I say not as you say they say for I know no forme of prayer lawfull in it selfe for any of the Lords people to tie themselves unto nor that ever was imposed upon any by Christ or his Apostles We reade in 1 Tim. 2. 1. 2. that all manner of prayers must be made unto God and amongst other supplications must be made for Kings but there was no forme of words given by which wee must pray for any and we are commanded to pray with the Spirit and to pray with understanding but we are commanded to avoid an evill manner of praying that we should not be like the Hipocrites which love to stand and pray in the Synogogues * nor that we should make vaine repititions as the Heathens which thinke to be heard for their much babling * and as also we are forbidden an evill manner of praying so wee are commanded by God what manner to use as it is plaine in Matth. 6. 9. The manner is that wee must in our prayers acknowledge God to be our Father And secondly That he is in heaven Thirdly we must give glory to his Name Fourthly we must pray for the coming of his Kingdome Fiftly we must pray that the Lords Will may be done both in earth and in heaven Sixthly wee must pray for all things necessary for this life which is there set forth under the name of dayly bread Seventhly wee must pray for the forgivenesse of our owne sinnes and we are also put in minde that as wee would have our owne sinnes forgiven so we should forgive others if they acknowledge their offences according to that in Luke 17 4 If thy brother trespasse against thee seven times a day and seven times a day end say it repenteth him c. Eightly we must pray against temptations to be delivered from the evills thereof And lastly we must conclude with thankesgiving acknowledging the Kingdome to be the Lords and all power and glory to be due unto him not onely for that present time but for ever Here you may see we are taught the manner how we ought to pray but we are tied to no forme of words yet we are to beleeve that this is a perfect Rule and that we may sufficiently ground all the petitions we neede to put up from this very rule As for Example As we desire to acknowledge God to be our Father so wee ought to desire that others would doe the like And whereas we ought
by the Canon Laws consisting of Archbishops Diocesan Bishops with all the rest of that erew for this is indeed both your Church and Ministry which doth appeare by your owne ground because you affirme that in this part lieth all the power but by your owne grounds the whole body of the Land I meane of the Laitie as you call them hath no power at all to reforme any abuse therfore this Clergy must needs be your Church and thus you make your selves the head and body and all the rest of the Land the â—ayle to follow after you Now if you can prove this to be a true Church which hath neither ground nor footing in Christs Testament you will worke wonders but indeede such wonders have been wrought by you for all the world hath wondered and runne after the beast saying Who is like unto him and who is able to make warre with him as you may plainely see in the 13. of the Reveation Therefore they that doe justifie such a Church are such as have beene deceived by her false miracles even by the fire which she hath made to come downe from heaven I pray you did not fire come downe from heaven in Queene Maries time and devour the Saints in Smithfield if you understand heaven in that place as I understand it to be the seate of the Magistrate you must grant the same for they are called Gods and the children of the most high For your forefathers did as Pilaâ— did wash their hands from the blood of the Saints and of the innocent and turned them over for their sentence of condemnation to the Secular power which you made your hornes and your heads pushed them forward to execute your bloody cruelty and thus you may see that fire came downe from heaven in the sight or apprehension of men for most that beheld it thought it was just because it was the sentence of the Magistrate And by this all men may see that you of the Clergie are the Church of England and that this Clergy came from Rome and that therefore your Church is derived from Rome Now if you would know whence the Church of Rome was derived I conceive that her power was derived from the beast with seven heads which rose up out of the sea as you may read of in the thirteenth of the Revelations for there both those beasts are mentioned and also the Image of the first beast which the second beast hath caused to be made which is even here in England amongst us and you may see I have proved unto you already what it is as you may also read in the 15. verse of that Chapter it was that to whom the beast gave a spirit and also he gave it power that it should speake and cause as many as would not worship the Image of the beast to be killed and hath not this Image caused aboundance to be killed in England and hath not he caused all to receive his marke or his name or the number of his name and they that have it not may neither buy nor sell as it is apparant by the testimonie of the Scripture it selfe and wofull experience And is not this Image the Church that now you â—leade for which consisteth of all the Priests of England if it be not I pray you tell me what it is But if this be it as it appeares it is then these are your Ministers also and then it hath beene proved plainely whence this your Church and Ministry came And that any of understanding should grant this Church and Ministry to be a true Church and Ministery would bewray great ignorance in them Further you adde that they acknowledge the Ordinances to be true In this I doe beleeve you upon your bare word for it is a truth if you meane Gods Ordinances which you have amongst you As first you have the Scripture but you wring it and wrest it according to your owne devices and make of it a nose of waxe and a leaden rule to leane which way your minde leadeth you and though you ought to take that reede or rod in your hand at all times if you were Gods messengers to measure both the Temple and the Altar and the worshippers Rev. 11. 2 yet you have not learned that skill for your Church and Ministrie holdeth no correspondencie with that measuring line but contrariwise you have taken that golden cup and filled it full of abominations â—ay you have hacked it and mangled it to peeces and made it into little lessons which you call your Epistles and Gospells they are Dedicated to your Saints upon your Saints-Dayes and thus you may see though you have the Scriptures which is the Word of God and take upon you to unfold the mysteries thereof yet in stead of that you darken the truth by false glosses Secondly you have the Sacraments even baptisme and breaking of breade but you pervert them both to your owne destruction neverthelesse they still remaine Gods Ordinances even as the golden vessells were Gods vessels when they were in Babel though Belsâ—azar made them his quaâ—â—ing boules yet still they remained to be Gods vessels Even so did Circumcision remaine Gods Ordinance though it was with Ieroboâ—â— The like may be said of Baptisme it still remaines Gods Ordinance though it be carried away with backâ—sliding Antichristians even the Apostate fallen stats and so you may read in the eleventh of the Revelation ver. 2. that the court must be left out and be unmeasured and the reason was because it was given to the Gentiles even to them that should tread downe the holy citie for 42. monethes this court we know belonged to the Temple as you may read in the 42. of Ezekiel and had in it the Ordinances belonging to the people And although you have Baptisme and the Lords Supper they will not sanctifie you though they may be sanctified to the use of them amongst you which are Gods people according to the election of grace And though you have some of Gods Ordinances amongst you yet you have added unto them many Ordinances of your owne devising which doth utterly debarre the Lords people which have knowledge of them from communicating with you in any worship As for example How shall any man partake with you of the word preached in your assemblies but he must needs partake also with the false calling of the Priest by which it is preached for none else are suffered to preach amongst you by your leave or approbation but they that preach by that false power And who shall receive the Sacraments with you and not justifie your devised Service-booke for all your things are administred by that And as all the Lords Ordinances ought to be sanctified by the Word of God and prayer So on the contrarie you labour to sanctifie your things by the stinted service-booke and therefore the withdrawing from you may be answered to God Further you beare the world in hand that you
have but something amongst you wanting yet that were to be desired and therefore you say there is no cause to leave the Kingdome nor for private men to set up true Churches Answer Indeed If your Church Ministers could be proved true which you see is a thing unpossible then it had beene needlesse as you say to leave the Land but neither is your Church nor Ministers true nor can the Ordinances be had amongst you without sinne and that this is the judgement of the Independant men is plaine by your former confession Where you affirme they will not heare of growing into one body or communicating with you before a Reformation neither submit to your Classes or Presbyters as Jure Divino But in the next place you say the setting up of devided Churches would be to the scandall of all the Churches and not the giving of scandall to one brother but to tenne thousands of Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards you overshoote yourselfe in that you make your selfe such an apparant dissembler for you would make men beleeve that you desire to keepe your Church and brethren unspotted and yet you your selfe with your owne tongue have most foulely scandalized the chiefe members of your Church making them so foule a people that they ought not to be communicated with * Further your words imply that so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull he may beare I tell you againe that your whole manner is unlawfull and therefore all the Lords people as they desire to be blessed and to be found walking in Gods waves have cause to separate from your Church and to practise Gods Ordinances among themselves as well as they who are separated already which you here you call Brownists and the grounds and causes be so great that they may well be justified But you would have conscious men to consider Mr. Robinson concerning circumstantiall corruptions you say he shewes it is not an intolerable evill for evill men be suffered in the Church c. yet you confesse he affirmes it to be an evill Two things are here to be minded First that you would still please your selfe with this that you have a true Church though corrupted which hath beene proved contrary Secondly that you would justifie your Church by the sinnes of others But you know what Mr. Robinson saith That the government instituted by Christ is not onely neglected or violated in the Church of England but the plaine contrarie to it is established by Law But you say now supposing your Reformation it will be otherwise with England then when he writ But you may see it is verie plaine that the crueltie and wickednesse of the Church of England hath increased ever since that time You say there is but something neglected and you would make it the want of some Law to suppresse evill men To which I answer That your Canon Lawes be evill Lawes and your Lawmakers evill men and therefore it could not stand with their principles to make Lawes to suppresse evill men Thirdly you say that they whom you call Independant live in and are members of such Churches and yet they thinke it unlawfull to forsake them I pray you have any of them told you that their Churches be like the Church of England you must make proofe thereof for in this I will not take you upon your bare word Further you say they want some parts of Government and Officers appointed by Christ more matertally than will be in your Church upon a Reformation I answer I have plainely proved to you that Christs Church hath his Government and Officers but your Church hath neither Christs Government nor Officers But what it will be upon the Reformation I cannot tell But you say they must want the Ordinances or else they must have them with instruments without ordination I answer This is untrue as hath beene proved at large in the answers to one of your former Reasons against Independancie But you say you would have them heare with the defects in your Church and waite till God give you more light I answer I know noâ—e that interrupteth you for wee will neither meddle with your Idols nor with your Gods if you would but suffer us to worship our God after the way that you call heresie The next thing you say is that they tell you that something may be omitted for a time and that affirmatives binde not alwayes and that the exercise of Discipline may be forborne for a time when it will not be for edification to the Church but for destruction and therefore you question them for not incorporating themselves into your Church though something were more there to be desired yet you say there will be nothing contrary put upon them nor quite another thing Now that something may be omitted for a time that may plainely appeare for a man that hath brought his gift to the Altar and there remembreth that his brother hath ought against him must leave the offering of his gift and goe and be reconciled to his brother Matth. 5. 23. 24. Now that affirmatives binde not alwayes is plaine for they binde not alwayes in cases of impossibility but in such cases God accepteth the will for the deede Further whereas you say the excellencie of discipline may be forborne for a time when it is not for Edification of the Church but for destruction I say true discipline being rightly used is alwayes for the edification of the Church and never for destruction And whereas you affirme that there is nothing contrary put upon us by you or quite another thing I answer wee know you have none of Gods Ordinances without some other thing to accompany them Fourthly you say that they may safely be members of your Church in the Reformation of you I answer You might well have spared this your vaine repetition till you had obtained a Reformation But the Reason you have heard alleadged for their first going away granted in a letter from Rotterdam that reason still remaines though you say it is ceased and will remaine till the Reformation you have formerly promised But say you that practise they judge themselves tied to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation I answer I have told you before in the reply to the second part of this your answer to their third Reason I now tell you againe that you make your Priests the head and body both but Christ hath given the power to the Church which is his body by whose power every Officer and member thereof doth move and doe their severall Offices Fifthly There is say you a medium between persecution and a publike Toleration a middle way say you betweene not suffering them to live in the Land and granting them liberty I Answer This is a very true thing for Pharaoh would have beene willing that the children of Israel
I say they are even like the way to â—eâ—vâ—n or the gate that leadeth unto life which is so narrow that such as you can hardly enter in thereat But if their greatest care be as you say to set up the Independant way * which is the way of God This still crosseth your former slander of them that they little minde the publike good and salvation of mens soules But that this is true namely that they minde little else but the propagation of their Independant way you bring the Protestation Protested to witnesse which Testimony maketh them peaceable men because they desire to meddle with no mans businesse but their owne And if they minde little else but to set up the Independant way then it will also crosse your following speech which you say you speak from your conscience and experience that never any of them had so large a spirit for good after they fell into that way nor tookesuch care you say for the propagation of the Gospell and preaching the Word to men without I tell you indeede if they did not take care to preach the Word to men without they would never come to preach amongst you much lesse would they then sue for libertie so to doe as the Welsh Ministers have done if they had not a desire to informe the ignorant in those truths that God hath revealed to them And therefore you may see in your accusations against them you are proved a very slanderer and have taken upon you the office of Sathan the old accuser of the Brethren But you conceive God never honoured them so much afterward But seeing it is but your conception it matters not for if they were active for God and did famously and worthily before they entred into the way of God I am sure they could not but be more active afterwards for when a man is in a Journey especially if he know or conceive himselfe to be out of the way he goeth on heavily till he meeteth with some directer either to informe him that he is in the right way or to direct him how he shall get into it and being setled in his right way hee goeth on more cheerefully and actively than hee could doe in the time of his doubting even so it must needs be with these men as I said before Againe you say that the men that hold those principles of Separation God did never honour much I answer it seemes you thinke Gods thoughts are as your thoughts and because you seeke for the praise of men and have it and a few men honour them and because Christs flocke is a little flocke therefore you imagine they are not honoured of God which is very carnall reasoning â— But as you have slandered the men all this while so now you here slander their way and principles which way is the way of God and whose principles are Gods truthes yet you say there is such a malignitie cleaves to it even as doth to the Episcopacie This is a very great slander to compare Godswayes to the wayes of Sathan in saying there is such a malignity cleaving to it which alters mens spirits and makes their hearts worse and yet you here confesse that many of them continue good in the maine Thus much for your Fourth Reason YOu say their fifth Reason is That this is no other but envy in the Ministers that makes them against Toleration because they feare their people will desert from them and come to us being so pure in Ordinances and Churches and thus you say the Protestation Protested speakes Your answer to this Reason is 1. That it is not out of envie but you hold their practise sinfull and unwarrantable to separate from your Churches and to erect such Congregations and therefore you say you speake against it and that you here promise to make good in a following Discourse For answer to this I must tell you that it is not your denying it to be out of Envie that will cleare you for there is nothing appeares more plainer than that envie against the truth and the Professors thereof was the cause of your writing against Toleration And that it is through feare your people will desert is plaine by your owne confession in your Fourth Reason where you say that if the Liturgie and Ceremonies stand in force and Toleration be granted they will make brave worke in a short time and yet you hope some judicious Christians as you say will be kept from their way But in that you here say you hold the practise sinfull and unwarrantable You have made that part of your judgement knowne already before but your judgement was grounded upon no true Principle and therefore it hath beene already proved to be emoneous And whereas you say you will make it good to be sinfull in a following Discourse I answer If you can but make men beleeve this you will worke a wonder But I know it is impossible for you to make good your promise and therefore I cannot expect performance Now to cleare your selfe 2. You say it cannot be counted envie in Ministers to be unwilling to have their flocks and people fall from them I answer By so saying you rather confirme their Reason than remove it namely that it was your feare of the deâ—erting of your people But for you to insinuate that the people that be called out of a way of sinne and brought into the way of grace and liberty be stolâ—â—â— away and tempted away by strangers as you would make it concluding that it is as tolerable for children to forsake their parents renouncing the 〈◊〉 that bare them and the â—â—ppâ—s that gave them sucke throwing dirt in the face of father and mother as it is for a man to forsake Idolatrous worship this is an unjust comparison and crosseth the whole tenor of the Scripture Now you would make this your owne case for you allude to your spirituall children who say you are the fruit of your labours I pray you how can you count the Parish of St. Elens your spirituall children seeing you are there but an hireling and as you have not begotten them to the Faith so you have not taken the charge of them to watch over them as a Spirituall Father and you will onely preach to them so long as any will pay you wages but no longer how then have you converted them to God from what have you converted them or what have you converted them too have you turned them from serving dumbe Idols to serve the living God I have heard of no great change of them nor of any other where you have preached you found them in the Church of England and you found them Christians in your owne judgement and you know they were baptized when you came to them and in the same Church where you found them there you leave them I pray you how have you begotten them to God you found them under a false power submitting to a false worship and