than you will grant that all particulars must be determined since then as Moses determines the dayes of separation for a legal uncleannesse why doth not the Gospel determine the separation â—oâ— spiritual uncleannesse Nay further consider Moses instituted no Church-Government in the way we use it for that of the Tribe of Levi and house of Aaron was only Typical and to wait on the Temple and the Worship to be performed there Beside which they had Synagogues all the Land over and wherever they had Colonies in the World and in these they had their Rabbies their Scribes and their Rulers and their chief Ruler of their Synagogues which read their Law performed such Worship as was not tyed to the Temple at Ierusalem and they inflicted Discipline upon offenders and these might have been of any Tribe not only of that of Levi and yet our Saviour never challengeth this but went in to the rulers of their Synagogues the like you finde done by his Apostles and they never declame against it as an humane invention Whence it must follow that you must grant either what they did was founded on divine tradition which no Christian will grant or that a form of Government was devised by men and yet no unlawful thing And if the Jews had such liberty certainly the Christian Church is at least more free as to these externals And after all since Christ is the Head of the World as well as of the Church why did not he determine the order of the one as well as of the other N. The odds is very great for his Church is dearer to him than all the world C. Why then doth he not determine how his Church should be governed as to the civil matter since Justice is a part of his Law as well as devotion and the civil peace I hope you will grant is more necessary to the very being of the Church than is order in Discipline and so it was determined in the old Law but yet it is left at liberty in the new And though I should grant the Church as Church is dearer to Christ then as they are men a foolish and childish nicety Yet a King though he looks most to what is dearest to him he will have his authority acknowledged in all his dominions whence it will with the same parity of reason follow that since Christ is the King of the earth there should be no Offices in it but of his appointment N. I never loved this carnal reason it is an enemy to Religion Our Ministers bring us to the Bible for every thing they say but you come on with your reason C. Truly you have good cause to be against reason for it and you cannot both prevail If by carnal reason you mean a sober examining things by the dictates of Nature see that you condemn not that which is indeed the voice of God in us and therefor is to be received And if you make this contrary to Religion you bring as great a stain upon Religion as an Atheist could devise But if by reason you mean little pittiful nibling with some ill understood and worse applied distinctions out of Aristotle and Ramus as is very frequent among you that is justly called vain Philosophy And for Scripture do not think they build surest upon it who are ever quoting it fastest the Devil did that and so do all Sects And thus if you can rightly weigh things I have said enough to convince you that in matters of Government the Church is at liberty But if you will still go to Scripture I can positively say though in it nothing amounts to a demonstration There are fairer likelihoods for Bishops from that of the Angels of the Churches than ever you shall find in it for Presbytery but I will not say more of this Next let me tell you how soon this Government was in the Church N. I will not deny tares sprung very early in Gods Husbandry but that will never convince me To the Law and to the Testimony for from the beginning it was not so C. You do well to possess your self with a prejudice against these Churches but think soberly whether is it likelier that those who lived so nigh the sacred time understood the mind of the Apostles better then we do at the fagg end of an thousand and six hundred years As also whether is it liker that the Church then alwayes in the fire of persecution was purer then she is now God bless me from the pride of comparing my self with these worthies who were honoured to convert the world and to die for the truth N. But Bishops were not in the two first Centuries as our Ministers say C. They are grossly ignorant or disingenuous who say so all History being against them Ignatius Epistles are plain Language The Apostolical Canons a work of very venerable antiquity at least the first 50 of them though none of theirs perhaps all over shew the difference was then betwixt Bishops and Presbyters particularly the 40. Can. The Presbyters and Deacons shall finish nothing without the Bishop's sentence For he is intrusted with the people of God and shall be required to give account of their souls And the same thing was also enjoyn'd Syn. Azel Can. 19. And in Cyprian's time it is undenied that their power was then well regulate and settled For though that great Saint and Martyr tells lib. 3. Epist. 10. That he had decreed in the beginning of his Bishoprick to do nothing without the advice of his Presbyters yet Ep. 9. of that book to Rogatian a Bishop who had asked his advice concerning an affront he had received from a Deacon he sayes that by his Episcopal vigour and authority of his Chair he had power presently to punish him And towards the end of that Ep. he sayes these are the beginnings of Hereticks and the rise and designs of Shismaticks to please themselves and contemn their Bishop with insolent pride And it is clear Presbyters at that time even in the Vacancy of a See did not judge themselves sufficiently impowred for Ecclesiastical administration by what the Presbyters and Deacons of Rome write to Cypr. lib. 2. Ep. 7. saying That since a Bishop was not at that time chosen in place of the deceased Fabian there was none to moderate all things amongst them who might with authority and advice take account of matters Sure they thought little of Presbyters being equal in power to their Bishop who write so of a Church wherein the Episcopal power might seem devolved on them But I believe few of you know these Writings In the Council of Nice speaking of the power of Metropolitans which was an additional thing to that of Bishops over Presbyters The Canon sayes Let the ancient Customs be in force Now how this excressing power should have crept into the whole Church and no mention when it came in no temporal Princes nor universal Councils to introduce it and that at a time of
persecution when the Church was least to be suspected of pride no Secular consideration being to flatter this power nay on the contrary they alwayes bore the first brunt of the Persecution and how none opposed it if this was not introduced by Apostles or Apostolical men passeth my divination Neither can any thing be alledged against this but some few or disjoynted places of some Authors which at most prove that they judged not the origine of Bishops to be Divine But none except Aerius branded upon that account with Heresie both by Augustine and Epiphanius â—id ever speak against the difference was betwixt Bishops and Presbyters And for the few places they alledge should I reckon up all that from these same Authors may be brought for it I should grow too tedious Ierom is he for whom they triumph but upon very small ground for beside that he being but a Presbyter might have exalted his own dignity to the height and his fervent I had almost said fiery spirit drives him along in every thing to an excesse as may appear from not only his ingadgements with Iovin Vigilan and Ruffin but even with the incomparable St. Austine all can be drawen from his words is that the difference betwixt Bishop and Presbyter was only of degree and not of office and that the difference was not of Divine but Ecclesiastical authority but even he expresly confesseth that Presbyters did not ordain and that the origine of the exercising power was in the dayes of the Apostles to prevent Schisms for he sayes that from the dayes of St. Mark till Denis and Heraclas there were constantly Bishops in Alexandria and he compares the Bishop Presbyters and Deacons in the Church to Aaron the High-priest his sons the Priests and the Levites in the Temple and sayes that it was decreed through the whole World that one Presbyter should be set over the rest and to root out the seeds of difference the whole care was laid upon one for all this see Ier. ad Euag. and upon Titus and from this you may see how little shew of ground there is from him or any other Church-writter to reject the Episcopal authority N. But these Bishops were not such as ours are C. I confess they were better men than either Bishops or Presbyters alive are But he knows little Church-story who knows not that the Presbyters did nothing without them and that particularly Presbyters could never ordain without a Bishop N. Well then as it was good then so it may be ill now and there is our present case C. I say still it is a rational just and a most necessary thing that the Senior and most approven Church-men be peculiarly incharged as well with the trial of Intrants as with the inspection of the Clergy since no order of men needs so much to be regulated as that of Church-men And therefore unless they be all equal in gifts and parts they ought not to be equal in power and authority If the power of Bishops be at any time abused it is but that to which all humane things are lyable nor can Presbytery be freed of that but let the common maxime in such cases be applyed to this remove the abuse but retain the use DIALOGUE IV. N YOu have said I confess a great many things that I cannot well answer yet my conscience still tells me that Episcopacy is no good Government and I cannot act against my Conscience C. You must remember this is the Plea of all Hereticks who still pretend Conscience I confess there is nothing in the world wherein I desire to be more tender than in offering the least violence to Conscience there not being a wider step to Atheism than to do any thing against the conviction of Conscience But see it be not humour and wilfulness that you scorn to change your opinion or love to your party whom you dare not displease or vanity that you may be noticed or faction Or simple and blind following of your Leaders without clear convictions in your own mind all which for most part are the true reasons of schisms though Conscience be ever pretended And remember that God will not hold them guiltless that take his Name in vain so you shall not pass unpunished if you pretend Conscience and be not acted by it N. How then must I examine any perswasion to know if it be conscience or not C. If you find in your heart a serious desire to please God in all things together with a desire of obeying the Laws of the Kingdom and of complying with the Church in what you judge lawfull but out of grounds which appear to you founded upon the will of God you are led to a perswasion this is Conscience provided there be joined with it a modest distrust of your self with a charitable opinion of those that differ from you And such as are of this temper were their judgements never so bemisted I reverence and love Weigh the matter therefore in just scales and I doubt you shall see that at best you are led by a blind and implicite obedience for I will not uncharitably censure you as guilty of worse N. You are so proudly blown up with an opinion of your self that you think all who are not of your mind are â—lind and ignorant at best whether is not this arrogance in you C. Consider my grounds ere you give a judgement against me I say then private persons have nothing to do with matters of Government your business is to submit in these things and not to judge For whether think you God in the great day will call you to answer at his Tribunal if you were Episcopal or Presbyterian As also since the great design of the Gospel is to purify the heart these things which have no tendency to the purifying or blotting of the Soul are not matters of Conscience And these are two easie Rules whereby private persons might well examine their Consciences N. But if we think you are wrong can we joyn with you C. First I say you can have no rational ground to think us wrong in matters of Religion And since it is not a matter of Religion and Salvation you cannot without being Schismatical separate from us But further even every errour in Religion ought not to unty the bond of the unity of the Catholick Church unless the errour be of greater importance than the Communion of Saints is a consideration which you never seem to weigh How did the Apostle St. Paul become a Iew to the Iews though he tells us to do these things out of an opinion of necessity in them was to antiquat the crosse of Christ. And let all men judge whether to circumcise and purify in the Temple were not greater compliances in matters more justly to be scrupled than what we contend about Nay the free spirit of Christianity made St. Paul see well that these externals were of themselves nothing so that either doing or forbearing in them might
be acceptable to God as he clearly sheweth in his fourteenth Chapter to the Romans Yea he carrieth this liberty further even to an instance which I confess I should never have yeelded to had not he determined in it that is the eating in the Idols Temples of their feasts and eating meat offered to Idols Now if St. Paul did this freely both to Jew and Gentile are not you bound to more obedience when not only charity but duty to the Laws exact it This sheweth how far you are both from the free and charitable spirit of St. Paul N. It is true he complied in these things but it was freely and not when it was exacted as you do of us Next he avoided to do these things when they occasioned scandal which is our case C. You in this bewray great simplicity for St. Paul did not refuse compliance because they were commanded by authority which you do but because certain false brethren came to spy out his liberty to whom he gave place by subjection no not for an hour If therefore any require your compliance as if it were necessary of it self you have reason to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made you free But it is unsufferable peevishness to say if the Magistrate enjoyn a thing declaring that it is still free in it self and only necessary because it is commanded upon that score to refuse obedience And may not offenders as well refuse to undergo the Discipline you enjoyn them and say though the thing be lawful yet it is but indifferent and therefore they cannot obey you because you command things indifferent which as you reason makes them necessary As for the point of scandal do not mistake it as if the displeasing your party were a giving of scandal as many of you weakly think to give scandal then is to stretch your liberty when that freedom of yours may draw others to follow your practice though they have not the same clearness in their mind And hence it appears that to avoid scandal is only an abridging your liberty for the good of your brother If therefore you be not at liberty but already restrained in it by the lawful command of authority you ought not in that case to be disobedient upon a pretence of avoiding scandal But I shall yet examine the matter of conformity more closly And first why do not your Ministers join with our Courts for Church-discipline N. They cannot do it because they are no Legal Courts the Law that established them being taken away so that now they are but the Bishops Deputies C. I have before studied to convince you that all that is divine in Discipline is that scandalous persons be noted and separated from worship but how this shall be administered can be no matter of Religion since wherein are souls concerned whether a Court acting in a parity or with one over them do this providing it be done But waving this whether judge you the Presbyters power for Discipline is founded upon a Divine Law or upon the Act of Parliament no doubt you will say the first well then can the abolishing that Act of Parliament take away your power if not you ought to sit in these Courts and still do your duty N. But this is to sit in a Bishops Court which acknowledgeth his authority C. I pray you suppose the case that the King should abrogate all Laws for the worship of God and declare that all that assemble to worship God shall be understood to worship Mahomet and thereupon oblidge all to meet though you meet not upon that command yet I hope you will still meet to worship God let them interpret that as they please So I say since a power of Jurisdiction is that to which Presbyters lay claim by a divine right they ought to meet in these Courts let the Law call it what it will N. But the Bishop is over them and over-ruleth them as he pleaseth C. But suppose this were true and that Episcopacy is a tyranny in the Church Why ought you not to submit to them as well as you did to the late Tyrants in the State And why as your Ministers say they will be content to take Churches and preach but let Discipline alone which is a quiting of some of their Rights that they may retain the greater May they not as well exercise Discipline though they cannot do it with all the liberty they desire Sure there is nothing but peevishness in this N. Do you think our Ministers would quite their Churches and liberty of Preaching the Gospel which is dearer to them than all the world for any thing but Conscience C. I am not so severe as to doubt but in most of them it is Conscience but I must adde it is ill informed Conscience But what can you pretend for your peoples withdrawing from our Churches since our Religion in Doctrine Worship and Discipline is the same only a small alteration in the point of Government is made N. I am not for separating from you as my practice tells but much may be said for it therefore I will judge none that do it C. Truly I desire to be as sparing in passing Judgements on people as any can be but since separation must be either a necessary duty or a very great sin being a forsaking the unity of the Church it can be no light matter to tear the Body of Christ when there is scarce a colour of pretence for it Now the Schismatical humour among you appears palpably in this that you come sometimes to Church but seldom this seems indeed to be time-serving that you may both evite the punishment of the Law and also retain your interest with your party for if you come once in three moneths you may come every Lords day and if you may come you ought to come otherwise you forsake the assemblings of the Saints and contemn what you call the Ordinances Others of you also joyn with some of us but not with others Now as to our publick transgressions if they be such we are all equally guilty why then make you a difference Others of you come to Churches in the Countrey but do not so in the City what doth this look like but that you have freedom for the thing but will not do it for fear of being noticed which is to prefer the pleasing of men to the pleasing of God And finally some of you joyn with us in the ordinary Worship but will not communicat with us which bewrayes great solly for if you may pray and praise with us which is the spiritual communicating why do you not joyn in the Eucharist which is but solemn praise N. How can we acknowledg them our Pastors who are intruders and are in the places of our faithful shepherds whom you have torn from us C. Supposing it were as you assert yet that will never warrand your separating from them since although by the Law of Moses the eldest of the
transcribed The authors who plead for this are only Courtiers Cannonists and Iesuits Now how are you not ashamed in a matter of such importance to symbolize with the worst gang of the Roman Church for the soberer of them condemn it yet fill heaven and earth with your clamours if in some innocenter things the Church of England seem to symbolize with them N. No you still retain the Papacy you only change the person from the Pope to the King whom you make head of the Church and swear to him in these termes C. This is so impudent a calumny that none but such as have a minde to reproach would use it which I shall clear by giving an account of the whole matter In England you know the Pope beside his general tyranny exercised a particular authority after King Iohn had basely resigned the Crown to him vide Matth. Paris ad An. 1213. When therefore the Reformation was introduced in England and the Papal yoke shaken off the oath of Supremacy was brought in to exclude all forreign jurisdiction and to reinstate the King in his civil authority over all persons and in all causes as well ecclesiastical as civil I confesse Henry the eight did directly set up a civil Papacy but you know the Reformation of England was never dated from his breach with the Bishop of Rome But the oath of Supremacy was never designed to take away the Churches intrinsick power Or to make that the power of Ordination giving Sacraments or Discipline flowed from the King to which he only gives his civil sanction and confirmation However because the words being general might suggest some scrouples they are clearly explained in an Act of Parliament of Queen Elizabeth and in one of the 39 Articles and more fully by the incomparable and blessed Bishop Vsher to whom for his pains King Iames gave thanks in a letter Now this Oath being brought from England to Scotland none ought to pretend scrouples since both the words in themselves are sufficiently plain and the meaning affixed to them in England is yet plainer And we having it from them must be understood to have it in their sense N. But this clearly makes way for Erastianism C. This is one of your mutinous Arts to find out long and hard names and affix them to any thing that displeaseth you In the Old Testament you find the Kings of Iudah frequently medling in Divine matters and the Sannedrim which was a civil court determined in all matters of Religion And you are very ignorant in History if you know not that the Christian Emperours still medled in matters of Religion The first general Councils were called by them as appears by their Synodical Acts and Epistles And by the accounts all the Historians give they also preceeded in the Councils so Constantine at Nice Theodose at Constantinople Earl Candidianus in name of Theodose the second at Ephesus and Martian at Chalcedon It s true in preceeding they only ordered matters but did not decide in them as particularly appears from the Commission given to Earle Candidianus inserted in the Acts of the Ephesin Council They also judged in matters of schisme so Constantine in the Donatist bussinesse even after it had been judged both by Miltiades and Marcus Bishops of Rome and Millan by the Synod of Arles and by the Council of Nice Yea the Code and Basilicks and the Capitolers of Charles the great shew they never thought it without their sphere to make lawes in Ecclesiastick matters The Bishops also were named by them or at least their elections were to be approven by them not excepting the Roman Bishop though he was the proudest pretender of all who after the overthrow of the Western Empire was to send to Constantinople or Ravenna to get his Election ratified and when the Western Empire was reasumed by Charles the great at Rome it was expresly provided that the Emperour should choose the Roman Bishop So Kings medling in Ecclesiastical affaires was never contraverted till the Roman Church swelled to the height of Tyranny and since the Reformation it hath been still stated as one of the differences betwixt us and them N. Well then I hope you who are so much for the Kings Supremacy will not quarrel at this indulgence which is now granted to us C. We are better subjects then to criticize upon much lesse condemn our Soveraigns pleasure in such things neither do we as you did carry all these matters to the Pulpit But I pray how would you Anno 1641. have received such a proposition from the King in favours of the Doctors of Aberdeen or other worthy persons whom you drove away by tumults not by lawes I doubt all your Pulpits should have rung with it And we may guesse at this by the opposition many of you made to the receiving of suspected persons into the Army for the necessary defence of the Countrey then almost overrun by the enemy so that you have now got a favour which you were never in a capacity to have granted to us when you governed and yet you see with what cheerfull obedience we receive his Majesties pleasure even in an instance which may seem most contrary to all our interests Or if any have their jealousies they stiffle them so within their breast that none whisper against authority N. This sayes it is against your will and therefore your compliance to it is forced not voluntary C. So much the greater is our vertue when we obey and submit to things against our inclinations which you never dream of but we are so inclined to peace that if you abuse not this liberty you have got we shall never complain of it nay if it produce the effects which we desire and for which we are assured it is designed we shall rejoyce for it which are to bring you to a more peaceable temper to make you value and love more one of the Noblest and most generous Princes that ever ruled and to dispose you to a brotherly accommodation with us which the Fathers of the Church are ready to offer to you on as fair terms as could be demanded by any rational person whereby if you listen not to them it will appear to the world that you are truly Schismatical And to encline you more to union I intend at our next meeting to give you a full prospect of the state of the antient Church both in their Government Worship and Discipline whereby I doubt not to convince you that their frame was far better suited for promoting all the ends of Religion then ever Presbytery could be But though I have made considerable observations in this besides what is in various Collectors yet I cannot at present give you so particular a plann as I design but shall reserve it till another meeting Mean-while do not abuse our Soveraigns royal goodness nor the tenderness of these he sets over you But let us all jointly pray that God in whose hands all our hearts are