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power_n bishop_n church_n presbyter_n 13,907 5 10.4774 5 true
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B23579 A Reply of two of the brethren to A. S. wherein you have observations on his considerations, annotations, &c. upon the apologeticall narration : with a plea for libertie of conscience for the apologists church way, against the cavils of the said A. S., formerly called M. S. to A. S. : humbly submitted to the judgements of all rationall and moderate men in the world : with a short survey of W. R. his Grave confutation of the separation, and some modest and innocent touches on the letter from Zeland and Mr. Parker's from New-England. Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Steuart, Adam. Some observations and annotations upon the Apologetical narration. Selections.; Parker, Thomas, 1595-1677. 1644 (1644) Wing G1198 108,381 124

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his_o own_o maxim_n elsewhere_o be_v this_o that_o par_n in_o parem_fw-la non_fw-la habet_fw-la imperium_fw-la and_o that_o where_o there_o be_v no_o superior_a or_o inferior_a there_o can_v be_v no_o obedience_n or_o disobedience_n non_fw-la huc_fw-la non_fw-la illuc_fw-la exemplo_fw-la nubis_fw-la aquosae_fw-la 2._o if_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n have_v power_n to_o command_v the_o church_n to_o revise_v sect._n 7_o her_o judgement_n when_o she_o judge_v any_o thing_n amiss_o sure_o he_o have_v power_n to_o examine_v and_o judge_v of_o her_o proceed_n whether_o they_o be_v regular_a equal_a and_o just_a or_o no_o except_o you_o will_v say_v that_o he_o come_v to_o the_o knowledge_n of_o your_o it_o regular_a and_o undue_a proceed_n in_o your_o presbytery_n by_o immediate_a revelation_n suppose_v either_o the_o one_o or_o the_o other_o what_o reason_n have_v you_o to_o deny_v he_o part_n and_o fellowship_n with_o you_o in_o that_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n which_o you_o engross_v and_o appropriate_v to_o yourselves_o as_o we_o have_v former_o see_v 3._o if_o so_o than_o your_o presbyterial_a assembly_n or_o judge_v church_n may_v determine_v and_o judge_v amiss_o and_o if_o so_o 1._o how_o dare_v you_o compel_v or_o make_v the_o people_n under_o your_o government_n to_o swear_v obedience_n or_o subjection_n unto_o your_o order_n which_o yet_o by_o your_o own_o confession_n pag._n 42_o ordinary_o you_o do_v 2._o why_o be_v you_o not_o satisfy_v with_o that_o subjection_n to_o your_o presbyterial_a decision_n which_o plead_v no_o exemption_n but_o only_o in_o the_o case_n of_o non-satisfaction_n about_o the_o lawfulness_n or_o truth_n of_o they_o you_o give_v man_n a_o good_a foundation_n a_o liberty_n to_o believe_v that_o you_o may_v err_v but_o you_o will_v not_o suffer_v they_o to_o build_v upon_o it_o to_o refuse_v you_o when_o they_o think_v in_o their_o soul_n and_o conscience_n that_o that_o you_o do_v err_v they_o that_o will_v 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the_o church_n so_o then_o it_o seem_v a._n s._n his_o presbyterial_a church_n be_v somewhat_o more_o inward_a intimate_a and_o intrinsical_v than_o the_o religion_n of_o this_o church_n otherwise_o how_o shall_v the_o power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n penetrate_v into_o the_o religion_n thereof_o and_o yet_o not_o reach_v into_o but_o only_o unto_o the_o church_n itself_o by_o this_o distinction_n he_o have_v utter_o disgrace_v his_o presbyterial_a government_n by_o make_v the_o church_n under_o it_o more_o internal_a and_o inward_a than_o the_o religion_n that_o be_v to_o be_v find_v in_o they_o if_o the_o apologist_n have_v but_o whisper_v one_o tittle_n of_o such_o a_o say_n though_o at_o never_o such_o a_o distance_n it_o have_v be_v enough_o to_o have_v produce_v seven_o reason_n more_o at_o least_o against_o their_o toleration_n then_o be_v yet_o levy_v or_o bring_v forth_o into_o the_o world_n but_o 2_o though_o you_o seem_v to_o deal_v very_o bountiful_o with_o the_o 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judge_n whether_o that_o be_v not_o a_o act_n of_o external_a power_n without_o the_o church_n if_o it_o be_v reply_v no_o because_o that_o church_n do_v implicit_o consent_v in_o yield_v their_o elder_n for_o member_n of_o that_o presbytery_n we_o reply_v that_o if_o either_o your_o public_a law_n constrain_v that_o church_n upon_o penalty_n eth._n invitum_fw-la dicitur_fw-la quod_fw-la quis_fw-la vel_fw-la coactus_fw-la vel_fw-la per_fw-la ignorantiam_fw-la admittit_fw-la arist_n eth._n l._n 3._o c._n 1._o kecker_n praecog_n sy_v eth._n against_o their_o light_n to_o suffer_v their_o elder_n to_o sit_v in_o the_o classical_a presbytery_n than_o that_o church_n do_v not_o free_o consent_v or_o if_o that_o church_n without_o constraint_n do_v consent_n for_o want_v of_o light_n as_o it_o must_v be_v suppose_v if_o a_o classis_fw-la upon_o debate_n be_v find_v to_o be_v beside_o the_o word_n this_o ignorant_a act_n of_o that_o church_n be_v a_o unwilling_a or_o involuntary_a act_n and_o so_o no_o free_a consent_n and_o so_o the_o classis_fw-la according_a to_o a._n s._n his_o distinction_n be_v like_o a_o magistrate_n which_o be_v a_o bishop_n without_o and_o about_o that_o church_n but_o good_a a._n s._n we_o know_v it_o be_v a_o easy_a matter_n to_o distinguish_v the_o magistrate_n sect._n 12_o into_o such_o a_o executive_a coercitive_a external_a power_n as_o you_o speak_v of_o but_o we_o will_v fain_o see_v you_o demonstrate_v he_o into_o it_o and_o then_o a._n s._n and_o m._n s._n shall_v be_v no_o more_o two_o but_o one_o s._n we_o know_v not_o how_o to_o transform_v distinction_n into_o demonstration_n his_o second_o distinction_n be_v of_o the_o subject_a of_o this_o power_n the_o magistrate_n who_o he_o make_v twofold_a true_o christian_a and_o not_o true_o christian_n but_o 1._o i_o will_v fain_o know_v by_o what_o touchstone_n a._n s._n will_v try_v his_o gold_n in_o this_o case_n i_o mean_v judge_n of_o the_o truth_n of_o christianity_n in_o a_o magistrate_n it_o appear_v from_o page_n 50._o of_o his_o discourse_n that_o he_o have_v no_o mind_n to_o grant_v his_o truth_n of_o christianity_n unto_o a_o magistrate_n that_o be_v either_o lutheran_n anabaptist_n socinian_n or_o papist_n any_o of_o these_o misprision_n in_o christianity_n be_v as_o sufficient_a in_o a._n s._n his_o judgement_n as_o in_o we_o to_o keep_v the_o sword_n of_o that_o power_n we_o speak_v of_o out_o of_o the_o magistrate_n hand_n and_o as_o for_o a_o magistrate_n who_o judgement_n shall_v be_v infect_v perfect_v reason_n and_o truth_n will_v say_v with_o apologisme_n or_o the_o great_a hatred_n of_o his_o soul_n independency_n i_o make_v no_o question_n but_o he_o in_o the_o comic_a term_n shall_v be_v exclusissimus_fw-la from_o this_o capacity_n or_o right_n above_o all_o the_o rest_n but_o let_v we_o go_v on_o with_o the_o man_n in_o the_o term_n of_o his_o own_o address_n to_o sect._n 13_o the_o apologist_n in_o the_o same_o place_n if_o he_o say_v 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do_v present_o this_o day_n this_o hour_n to_o morrow_n and_o so_o forth_o toties_fw-la quoties_fw-la as_o much_o good_a to_o and_o for_o the_o church_n or_o church_n of_o christ_n within_o his_o jurisdiction_n or_o dominion_n as_o he_o can_v have_v if_o he_o be_v true_o christian_n do_v act_n of_o justice_n bounty_n grace_n towards_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n any_o whit_n more_o defile_v a_o magistrate_n how_o far_o from_o true_o christian_n soever_o then_o act_v of_o the_o same_o nature_n perform_v unto_o his_o other_o subject_n the_o king_n and_o those_o that_o be_v in_o authority_n in_o paul_n day_n be_v general_o all_o the_o king_n without_o exception_n far_o from_o be_v true_o christian_n and_o yet_o be_v it_o not_o lawful_a for_o they_o to_o interpose_v with_o their_o authority_n or_o power_n that_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n in_o their_o dominion_n may_v lead_v a_o quiet_a and_o peaceable_a life_n in_o all_o godliness_n and_o honesty_n if_o not_o then_o be_v that_o exhortation_n of_o he_o 1_o tim._n 2._o 2._o to_o be_v lay_v up_o in_o lavender_n for_o some_o hundred_o of_o year_n after_o it_o be_v give_v or_o else_o the_o benefit_n and_o blessing_n the_o obtain_n whereof_o by_o prayer_n be_v make_v the_o ground_n of_o the_o exhortation_n must_v have_v be_v make_v over_o in_o the_o intention_n of_o those_o that_o have_v so_o pray_v unto_o their_o posterity_n after_o many_o generation_n a._n s._n may_v choose_v which_o of_o the_o two_o he_o will_v believe_v for_o my_o part_n i_o shall_v not_o be_v his_o corrival_n in_o either_o you_o have_v hear_v a._n s._n his_o distinction_n for_o a_o coercive_a power_n about_o the_o church_n in_o a_o civil_a magistrate_n demonstrationes_fw-la autem_fw-la ubi_fw-la but_o where_o be_v his_o proof_n quas_fw-la non_fw-la invenio_fw-la usquam_fw-la esse_fw-la puto_fw-la nusquam_fw-la what_o i_o find_v not_o any_o where_n i_o believe_v to_o be_v no_o where_o i_o have_v search_v and_o that_o
declare_v the_o ground_n &_o reason_n of_o their_o judgement_n in_o each_o particular_a and_o not_o compel_v they_o either_o to_o keep_v they_o burn_v or_o glow_v in_o their_o own_o breast_n or_o else_o to_o propagate_v and_o vent_v they_o private_o and_o among_o person_n that_o have_v neither_o learning_n nor_o ability_n in_o any_o kind_n to_o encounter_v or_o oppose_v they_o this_o be_v another_o hopeful_a sign_n that_o the_o day_n of_o a_o general_a accommodation_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n be_v come_v upon_o the_o world_n the_o reason_n of_o this_o be_v plain_a because_o till_o truth_n reign_v among_o the_o saint_n peace_n be_v not_o like_a to_o reign_v the_o reason_n whereof_o have_v be_v already_o give_v nor_o will_v truth_n ever_o reign_v like_a unto_o herself_o till_o all_o her_o enemy_n i_o mean_v error_n and_o misprision_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n be_v subdue_v and_o bring_v under_o her_o foot_n nor_o be_v there_o any_o likelihood_n in_o a_o way_n of_o reason_n or_o ordinary_a providence_n that_o such_o enemy_n of_o the_o truth_n shall_v ever_o be_v subdue_v till_o they_o come_v to_o look_v those_o son_n of_o truth_n in_o the_o face_n who_o be_v anoint_v by_o god_n with_o a_o spirit_n of_o wisdom_n and_o understanding_n for_o the_o confutation_n and_o utter_a abolishment_n of_o they_o doubtless_o one_o main_a reason_n why_o error_n and_o fond_a and_o foul_a opinion_n do_v still_o propagate_v &_o prevail_v with_o so_o high_a a_o hand_n among_o we_o be_v because_o these_o minister_n and_o teacher_n be_v suffer_v to_o have_v none_o other_o vent_n for_o they_o but_o only_o among_o people_n that_o be_v child_n in_o understanding_n and_o not_o furnish_v with_o strength_n of_o knowledge_n or_o part_n of_o learning_n to_o withstand_v they_o the_o common_a proverb_n have_v somewhat_o in_o it_o to_o this_o purpose_n inter_fw-la eaecos_fw-la etiam_fw-la luscus_fw-la potest_fw-la regna●e_fw-la a_o man_n with_o one_o eye_n will_v make_v a_o goodly_a king_n over_o those_o that_o be_v blind_a reader_n the_o preface_n have_v do_v with_o thou_o and_o recommend_v thou_o to_o the_o book_n where_o it_o wish_v a_o happy_a greeting_n between_o thy_o judgement_n and_o the_o truth_n chap._n 1._o concern_v the_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n ecclesiastical_a and_o which_o concern_v religion_n whether_o how_o or_o in_o what_o sense_n it_o may_v be_v conceive_v to_o reside_v in_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n synod_n or_o other_o man_n sect._n 1_o a._n s._n pag._n 5._o have_v this_o left-handed_a expression_n concern_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n that_o he_o arrogate_v not_o to_o himself_o any_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n the_o reader_n must_v do_v he_o a_o courtesy_n in_o find_v he_o out_o a_o very_a soft_a sense_n for_o the_o word_n arrogate_v otherwise_o he_o will_v be_v find_v in_o a_o misprision_n of_o a_o foul_a insinuation_n against_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n as_o viz._n that_o he_o arrogate_v i._n in_o the_o ordinary_a construction_n of_o the_o word_n proud_o assume_v to_o himself_o when_o he_o claim_v or_o exercise_v that_o executive_a coercive_a &_o external_a power_n in_o and_z about_o matter_n of_o religion_n which_o yet_o a._n s._n himself_o in_o the_o very_a next_o page_n know_v on_o which_o side_n to_o butter_n his_o own_o bread_n ascribe_v unto_o he_o for_o as_o he_o that_o shall_v say_v of_o a._n s._n by_o way_n of_o commendation_n that_o he_o never_o corrupt_v a_o matron_n or_o woman_n in_o marriage_n shall_v yet_o hereby_o reflect_v a_o shrewd_a suspicion_n upon_o he_o that_o his_o innocency_n in_o this_o kind_n can_v not_o so_o well_o be_v avouch_v in_o respect_n of_o virgin_n or_o other_o of_o that_o sex_n out_o of_o matrimonial_a relation_n in_o like_a manner_n a._n s._n himself_o intend_v a_o honourable_a purgation_n or_o vindication_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n in_o these_o word_n that_o he_o arrogate_v not_o to_o himself_o any_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n do_v he_o not_o by_o the_o same_o rule_n of_o antithetical_a relation_n or_o implication_n imply_v that_o he_o do_v arrogate_v another_o power_n which_o stand_v in_o a_o relative_n opposition_n to_o it_o which_o according_a to_o his_o own_o distribution_n be_v a_o executive_a coercitive_a &_o external_a power_n in_o &_o about_o matter_n of_o religion_n but_o i_o marvel_v that_o the_o man_n shall_v here_o so_o clean_o wipe_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n of_o a_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n when_o as_o but_o a_o few_o page_n before_o in_o his_o 8._o observe_v he_o have_v plead_v wisdom_n enough_o in_o the_o parliament_n to_o know_v what_o be_v convenient_a for_o the_o church_n of_o god_n if_o the_o parliament_n be_v wise_a enough_o to_o know_v what_o be_v convenient_a for_o the_o church_n i_o know_v no_o reason_n why_o that_o directive_n power_n here_o speak_v of_o shall_v be_v derogate_a or_o take_v from_o they_o especial_o by_o those_o who_o it_o be_v much_o to_o be_v fear_v be_v much_o straighten_a in_o respect_n of_o a_o spirit_n of_o that_o wisdom_n themselves_o sure_o a._n s._n in_o say_v that_o the_o parliament_n be_v wise_a enough_o to_o know_v what_o be_v convenient_a for_o the_o church_n have_v sift_v the_o synod_n or_o assembly_n with_o a_o sieve_n of_o vanity_n and_o break_v the_o head_n of_o the_o necessity_n thereof_o &_o so_o be_v guilty_a of_o a_o far_o high_a misdemeanour_n against_o it_o than_o the_o apologist_n be_v in_o any_o thing_n that_o they_o have_v do_v or_o say_v yea_o or_o then_o himself_o lay_v to_o their_o charge_n which_o yet_o be_v his_o rod_n of_o scorpion_n to_o scourge_v they_o from_o place_n to_o place_n turpe_fw-la est_fw-la doctori_fw-la cum_fw-la culpa_fw-la redarguit_fw-la ipsum_fw-la sect._n 2._o but_o let_v we_o consider_v a_o little_a more_o narrow_o whether_o a._n s._n have_v quite_v himself_o like_o a_o doctor_n of_o the_o chair_n in_o strip_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n of_o a_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n and_o put_v on_o he_o in_o stead_n thereof_o the_o purple_a robe_n of_o a_o executive_a coercitive_a and_o external_a power_n only_o pag._n 6._o 1._o by_o such_o a_o umpirage_n and_o decision_n as_o this_o between_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o himself_o with_o his_o fellow_n presbyter_n have_v he_o not_o make_v the_o one_o judex_n and_o the_o other_o carnifex_fw-la the_o one_o must_v give_v the_o sentence_n the_o other_o must_v do_v the_o execution_n the_o civil_a magistrate_n be_v much_o behold_v to_o the_o presbyter_n for_o give_v of_o he_o a_o consecrate_a sword_n to_o fight_v the_o presbyterian_a battle_n and_o for_o persuade_v he_o to_o pull_v out_o his_o own_o eye_n upon_o this_o presumption_n that_o he_o shall_v see_v better_o with_o he_o i_o perceive_v presbytery_n be_v policy_n in_o the_o high_a and_o seek_v to_o put_v the_o magistrate_n between_o itself_o and_o the_o envy_n and_o discontent_n of_o the_o people_n and_o yet_o nevertheless_o hope_n to_o gain_v from_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o magistrate_n such_o a_o interpretation_n of_o this_o practice_n as_o thereby_o to_o be_v esteem_v the_o best_a and_o faithful_a friend_n it_o have_v in_o all_o the_o world_n this_o cunning_a of_o the_o spirit_n we_o now_o speak_v of_o put_v i_o in_o mind_n of_o the_o ape_n that_o take_v the_o spaniel_n foot_n to_o pull_v the_o chess-nut_n out_o of_o the_o fire_n sure_o the_o frame_n and_o constitution_n of_o presbytery_n be_v exact_o calculate_v for_o the_o meridian_n of_o this_o present_a world_n but_o whether_o it_o will_v indifferent_o serve_v for_o that_o which_o be_v to_o come_v totus_fw-la dubito_fw-la i_o be_o in_o doubt_n all_o over_o and_o indeed_o a._n s._n himself_o be_v somewhat_o ingenuous_a in_o acknowledge_v that_o this_o government_n have_v little_a or_o no_o relation_n unto_o or_o compliance_n with_o the_o world_n which_o be_v to_o come_v profess_v p._n 13._o the_o external_a peace_n of_o the_o church_n to_o be_v the_o adequate_a end_n thereof_o 2._o i_o will_v glad_o be_v inform_v whether_o a._n s._n think_v it_o reasonable_a sect._n 3_o meet_v or_o christian_a that_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n shall_v immediate_o hand_n over_o head_n without_o distinction_n without_o search_v for_o his_o own_o satisfaction_n into_o the_o equitablenesse_n and_o lawfulness_n of_o what_o a_o presbytery_n or_o synod_n shall_v commend_v unto_o he_o for_o execution_n interest_n himself_o in_o the_o execution_n of_o whatsoever_o shall_v be_v so_o recommend_v and_o present_v unto_o he_o i_o presume_v a._n s._n will_v not_o arrogate_v unto_o himself_o nor_o to_o his_o assembly_n a_o infallibility_n though_o in_o some_o place_n i_o find_v he_o very_o loath_a to_o abate_v this_o in_o the_o reckon_n if_o it_o will_v be_v allow_v and_o the_o truth_n be_v that_o the_o whole_a fabric_n well-nigh_o of_o his_o discourse_n to_o make_v it_o rational_a and_o any_o thing_n to_o