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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A74979	Excommunicatio excommunicata, or, A censure of the Presbyterian censures and proceedings in the Classis at Manchester wherein is modestly examined what ecclesiastical or civil function [sic] they pretend for their new and usurped power : in a discourse betwixt the ministers of that Classis, and some dissenting Christians.	Allen, Isaac, 17th cent.; Allen, Isaac, 17th cent.; Heyrick, Richard, 1600-1667.	1658 (1658)	Wing A1026A; ESTC R42720	45,307	67

Churches lawfull Pastors have the power of the Keys committed to them to excommunicate such offenders 3. For such as are scandalous and wicked in their lives Admonition private and publique is to be observed according to Christs rule Mat. 18. but if they still continue and will not reform the Churches lawfull Pastors have power to excommunicate such Thus far we accord in judgement touching the way of informing the ignorant and reforming wicked persons and schismatical which course is so fully warranted by the Word of God and the constant practise of the Catholique Church that we are not so wavering and unsetled in our apprehensions of the case as to submit either it or them either wholly or in part to the contrary judgement and determination of a General Council of the Eastern or Western Churches much less to a new termed Provincial Assembly at Preston wherein we no little differ from you Other parts of your Paper are full of darkness to which we cannot so fully assent till further explicated and unfolded by you For 1. Whereas you say That in the several congregations if not in all belonging to this Association there are many persons of all sorts that are members of congregations c. you seem to hint that though your grief may be general as ours for all offenders yet your censures extend onely to those who have admitted themselves members of some Congregation within your Association and yet live inordinately and will not be admonished If so then we who never were any members or associates of yours are not within the verge and compass of your Presbyterian discipline for what have you to do to judge those that are without 2. But whereas your complaint and offence taken is That many there are of all sorts who will not submit themselves to the present Government of the Church but live like lawless persons out of their rank and order If by the present Government of the Church you mean your own as may strongly be conjectured you do then are we also comprehended therein and must fall within your censure and not onely we but all Papists Anabaptists and all other of what Profession and Religion soever who live within the Parish must be taken for members of some one Congregation within your Association and so driven into the common fold of Presbytery and be subject to your Government And this as we suppose is the cheif design of you in this as in other transactions of yours to subject all to your Government which you garnish over with the specious title of Christs Government Throne and Scepter Presbytery is the main thing driven at here and however she cometh ushered in with a Godly pretence of sorrow for the sins and ignorance of the times and a duty incumbent upon you to exercise the power which Christ hath committed to you for edification and not for destruction yet these are but as so many waste papers wherein Presbyterie is wrapped to make it look more handsomely and pass more currently but beware we must for latet anguis in Herbâ Object But you say For want of the vigorous exercise of this Ecclesiastical discipline ignorance Atheism and Licentiousness grows upon us and men live as lawlesse persons out of their rank and order because not subject to your present Government Sol. We pray for the establishment of such Church Government throughout his Highness Dominions as is consonant to the will of God and Universall practice of primitive Churches that Ecclesiasticall discipline may be exercised in the hands of them to whom it was committed by Christ and left by him to be transferred from hand to hand to the end of the World and shall readily joyn with you in humble addresses to his Highness and his great Council for the establishment of such a Church Government In the mean time though there may be such who as you say live as lawless persons out of their rank and order yet are they subject to law and therefore subject to punishment for though your Ecclesiastical sword cannot take hold on them the civill sword doth reach them Your Class may do well then not to contemn as in charity we hope you do not the authority of the civill Magistrate but in stead of warning all and every member belonging to them to complain to the Eldership of those that walk disorderly and will not be reclaimed to the end they may excommunicate them That they exhort them to complain to the civill Magistrate whose sword of Justice is sharper and longer and likely to work a greater reformation in the lives and manners of men by a corporal and pecuniary Mulct then any sword of excommunication or other Church censure your Eldership can any way pretend unto There are other parts of your paper do remain likewise dark which we desire may be made plain unto us for whereas you say There are many persons of all sorts c. That will not submit themselves to the present Government of the Church but live as lawless persons out of their rank and order Our Quaeres thereupon are 1. Why Government in singulari is there no Ecclesiasticall Government but yours may not another Church have its Government different from yours yet not different from that which Christ hath prescribed in his Word Calvin saith yea Scimus enim unicuique Ecclesiae c. And accordingly there are other Churches in England different in Government from yours and as good as yours But if you say yours is the Government 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of eminency as Christs own Government more immediatly and jure divino which you so much defend then why the present is there no present Government in any Church or Assembly of Saints but where your discipline is erected Are all the rest at present without Government or where hath yours been this 1500. years past till this present Hath Antichristianism so overspread the face of the Church that Christs own Government could never get footing till this present But now subjection is required thereto of all yet many of all sorts will not subject but live as lawless persons out of their rank and order Our next Quaere is What must all those that observe not your ranks and orders subject not themselves to your present Government be taken for lawless persons out of their rank and order Yea for so this close connexion of yours seems to import viz. many who do not subject but live c. In your paper you further proceed and make it an order That notice shall be taken of all persons that forsake the publick assembly of Saints We would gladly know how far you extend this Saintship this Church and assembly of Saints if to your own Church onely and such as subject themselves to your Government then S. Augustines Answer against the Donatists who would not acknowledg a Church in the World but amongst themselves may also be yours O Impudentem Vocem saith he Illa non est Quia

as is consonant to the will of God and universall practice of primitive Churches c. In that you do here joyn the will of God and the universal practise of primitive Churches together as you joyned the Word of God and the constant practise of the Catholique Church before you seem to us to make up the rule whereby we must judge what Government it is that you pray might be established of these two viz. the will of God and the universal practise of primitive Churches Or that it is the universal practise of primitive Churches That must be our sure guide and comment upon the Word of God to tell us what is his will revealed these touching Church Government and discipline If this be your sense as we apprehend it is we must needs profess that herein we greatly differ from you as not conceiving it to be sound and orthodoxe It being the Word of God alone and the approved practise of the Church recorded there whether it was the universall and constant practise of the Church or no that is to be the onely rule to judge by in this or any other controversies in matters of Religion But yet admitting for the present the rule you seem to make we should desire to know from you what that Church Government is which is so consonant to the will of God and universall practise of primitive Churches For our own parts we think it will be very hard for you or any others to demonstrate out of any Records of Antiquity what was the universall practise of primitive Churches for the whole space of the first 300. years after Christ or the greatest part thereof excepting so much as is left upon record in the Scriptures of the new Testament the Monuments of Antiquity that concerne those times for the greatest part of them being both imperfect and far from shewing us what was the universall practise of the Church then though the practises of some Churches may be mentioned and likewise very questionable At least it will not be easie to assure us that some of those that go under the names of the most approved Authors of those times are neither spurious nor corrupted And hereupon it will unavoidably follow that we shall be left very doubtfull what Government it is that is most consonant to the universall and constant practise of primitive Churches for that time But as touching the rule it self which you seem here to lay down we cannot close with it We do much honour and reverence the primitive Churches But yet we believe we owe more reverence to the Scriptures then to judge them either imperfect or not to have light enough in themselves for the resolving all doubts touching matters of faith or practise except it be first resolved what was either the concurrent interpretation of the Fathers or the universall and constant practise of the Churches of those times Besides that admitting this for a rule that the universall and constant practise of the primitive Churches must be that which must assure us what is the will of God revealed in Scripture concerning the Government which he hath appointed in the Church our faith is hereupon resolved into a most uncertain ground and so made fallible and turned into opinion For what monuments of Antiquity besides the Scripture can assure us touching the matters of fact therein contained that they were such indeed as they are there reported to be the Authors of them themselves being men that were not infallibly guided by the Spirit But yet supposing we could be infallibly assured which yet never can be what was the universall and constant practise of the primitive Churches how shall that be a rule to assure us what is most consonant to the will of God When as we see not especially in such matters as are not absolutely necessary to salvation Even as a Generall Councill it self is subject to errrour but that the universall practise of the Churches might in some things be dissonant to the will of God revealed in Scriptures And so the universall practise of primitive Churches can be no certain rule to judge by what Church Government is most consonant to the will of God revealed in his Word We know there are corruptions in the best of men There was such hot contention betwixt Paul and Barnabas Gal. 2. as caused them to part asunder Peter so failed in his practise as that though before some came from James he did eat with the Gentils yet when they were come he withdrew himself fearing them of the Circumcision And hereupon not only other Jews dissembled with him but Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation Whence it 's clear that the examples of the best men even in those things wherein they went contrary to the rule of Gods Word are of a spreading nature and the better the Persons that give the bad example are the greater the danger of the more universall leavening Nay we finde that not only some few Apostolicall men had their failings but even Apostolicall primitive Churches did in the very face of the Apostles they being yet alive make great defection both in regard of opinions and practises As from the examples of the Churches of Corinth Galatia and the Churches of Asia is manifest The Apostle also tels us that even in his time the mystery of iniquity began to work And in after times we know how the Doctrine was corrupted what gross superstition crept into the Church what domination was striven for amongst the Pastors and Bishops of the Churches Till at length Antichrist was got up into his seat unto which height yet he came not all at once but by steps and degrees Besides it is of fresh remembrance that notwithstanding the reformation happily brought about in our own Church in regard of Doctrine and worship after those dismall Marian times yet the corruption in regard of Government continued such during the time of the late Prelacy which yet was taken away in other reformed Churches that the Pastors were deprived of that power of rule that our Church acknowledgeth did belong to them of right and which did anciently belong to them however the exercise thereof did after grow into a long disuse as hath been shewed before And therefore when we consider on the one hand that the superiority which the Bishop obtained at the first above the Presbyter in the ancient Church and which was rather obtained consuetudine Ecclesiae then by Divine right did at the length grow to that height that the Pastors were spoiled of all power of rule so we cannot much wonder on the other hand that the ruling Elder was quite turned out of doors For the proof of the being and exercise of whose office in the purer times there are notwithstanding produced testimonies of the ancients by Divines both at home and abroad that have written about that subject and to which we do therein refer you As there do remain some footsteps and shadow of

catechized publickly in the Congregation But as for those that are conscious to themselves that they are very ignorant if these should be called forth to publique Catechizing it were more likely to drive them from the publique Assembly and so from the use of all means for their information then be availeable to this end As touching what was propounded by us in our paper as the way for their information though it was not intended for any such a purpose as to exclude publique Catechizing it was done in way of condescension to the weakest and to shew our willingness to apply our selves to any course so we might be instrumentall to bring poor dark and blinde Souls to the knowledge of Christ and which in our Judgement is more likely to be attained in many as the case stands with them in a more private way of Catechizing in any of the wayes propounded by us then if we should Catechize all the severall Families publiquely before the whole congregation 2 Touching those that erre so grossely whether in Doctrinals or points of discipline thereby renting from a true constituted Church you say we speak nothing either of their sin or punishment yet you hope we with you do hold that the Churches lawfull Pastors have the power of the keyes committed to them to excommunicate such offenders We have given you the reason already why we made not such express mention of these offenders as of the former although as you will hereafter perceive we are not wholly silent touching eirher the sin or punishment of these Onely at present because you profess to allow of that previous course of admonition prescribed by Christ in reference to the scandalous Mat. 18. before they be excommunicated but here say nothing of any such course to be taken with the hereticall or schismaticall though we hope also of you that you disallow it not we shall briefly declare what course is to be held by the rules of the Presbyterian Government before the sentence of excommunication pass against these offenders and whereof our paper was not silent This Government however it gives no toleration to any such errours as subvert the faith or any other errours which overthrow the power of godliness if the party who holds them spreads them seeking to draw others after him or to any such practises as in their own nature manifestly subvert that order Vnity and Peace which Christ hath established in his Church These being offences censured by this Government and of which further afterward yet this Government prescribes the exercise of patience and long suffering even toward those that do grossely erre in Doctrine as well as toward those that are scandalous in life in the use of all means for the convincing them of their errours by reasoning with them out of the Scriptures as we see was practised in the Synod that was held at Jerusalem and as we see the Fathers of the Nicene Council did not disdain to reason and dispute with Arrius though he denyed the Deity of Christ before they condemned him And as also other Fathers did with other Hereticks in the Synods although oftentimes in vain That so none might have any just cause to complain that they were condemned before they were fully heard And as touching such as run into such practices as in their own nature tend manifestly to the subverting of that order and unity which Christ hath established in the Church it labours with these also in the use of all gentle means to reclaim them and bring them back again to the Church they have rent themselves from before it proceed to censure As it doth also put a difference between the seducers and ring-leaders of a Sect and those that are misled Having respect not only to the nature of the offence but also to the quality of the offender and exerciseth patience and forbearance towards all so long as there is any hope of reducing them by milde correction Being ever more desireous to heal then cut off any member And thus having declared our selves in this we go an with you 3 For you say For such as are scandalous and wicked in their lives admonition private and publique is to be observed according to Christs rule Mat. 18. But if they still continue and will not reform the Churches lawfull Pastors have power to excommunicate such In this you fully come up to what we hold as to the means that is to be used for the reformation of these and we are glad there is an agreement in judgement betwixt you and us thus far Neither can we see how upon this concession you can in reason finde fault with our proceedings if there should be occasion for our censuring any such persons as for their notorious offences and their obstinacy therein might justly merit the highest censure For however perhaps you may say you stumble chiefely at this that our ruling Elders that in your judgement may be but meer Lay-men do joyn in the Government with us yet we see not how this can be any just ground of scruple to any of you who if we mistake not were all of you satisfied in your consciences touching the lawfulness of the late Government of Episcopacy as it was then exercised at least as to submission to it and wherein High-Commissioners Chancelors and Commissaries that were as much Lay-men then as ruling Elders can be in your judgement now had so great a share as to suspend Ministers from the exercise of their Ministry upon such complaints as according to the orders that were appointed in those dayes they might take cognizance of and so far as to decree the sentence of excommunication against them and others as there was occasion for it But here we must yet further profess we do not know whom you mean by lawfull Pastors to whom you here grant the power of excommunication Dr Hammond Some we know there are that would make the Diocesan Bishops the onely Pastors of the Church and that other Ministers do but officiate by deputation from them and under them We hope you are not of the minde of these For then as the dissent in judgement betwixt you and us would be far greater then as yet we apprehend it is so hence it will follow that till Prelacy should be restored there must not if you would provide for the safety of the persons and estates of them that should mannage the Government be the dispencing of any Church censures at all For you may easily know that not only by Acts and Ordinances of Parliament before made for the abolishing of Archbishops and Bishops c. and which are confirmed by the late humble Advice assented unto by his Highness sect 12. the office and jurisdiction of Diocesan Bishops is taken away But there is yet a further Barre put in against Prelacy in the 11. sect of the aforesaid humble Advice where it is expresly cautioned and we judge it was out of a conscientious mindfulness of what had been

in those very termes covenanted against that the liberty that is granted to some be not extended to Popery and Prelacy And therefore if any Diocesan Bishop should exercise his jurisdiction and excommunicate any person within this Land wherein by Authority as you may see afterward there is also an appointment of another Government we leave it to those that are learned in the Law to determine whether such Diocesan Bishops would not run themselves into a praemunire But if you do not restrain lawfull Pastors to these onely our doubt yet is Whether you mean not onely such Ministers as were ordained by Diocesan Bishops excluding those out of the number that since their being taken away have been ordained by Presbyters onely If this be your sense we shall onely at present minde you of what is published to be the Judgement of Dr Vsher late Primate of Ireland in a Book lately put forth by Dr Bernard Preacher to the Honourable Society of Grayes-Inne and whom though a stranger to us and one of a different judgement from us in the point of Episcopacy yet we reverence for his moderation and profession of his desires for peace wishing that such as do consent in substantials for matter of Doctrine would consider of some conjunction in point of Discipline That private interests and circumstantials might not keep them thus far asunder * See pag. 14● of his last Book In which wish as we do cordially joyn our selves so we heartily desire that all godly and moderate spirited men throughout the Land would also close But the book which the said Doctor hath lately published is intituled The Judgement of the late Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of Ireland c. In this Book this Doctor tells us that the late Primate in Answer to a letter of his sent to him as it should seem for that purpose declares his Judgement touching the ordination of the Ministry in the Reformed Churches in France and Holland There he saith that Episcopus Presbyter gradu tantum differunt non ordine And consequently that in places where Bishops cannot be had the ordination by Presbyters standeth valid And in the close of his Answer about this point he saith That for the testifiying of his Communion with the Churches of the Low-Countryes of whom he had spoken immediately before and which he there professeth He doth love and honour as true members of the Universall Church notwithstanding the difference that was betwixt him and them about the point of Episcopacy he doth profess That with like affection he should receive the blessed Sacrament at the hands of the Dutch Ministers if he were in Holland as he should do at the hands of the French Ministers if he were in Charenton See pag. 125. and 126. Hence you may perceive that the Judgement of Dr Usher was That the Ordination of Presbyters where Bishops cannot be had standeth valid And consequently if you be of his opinion and you must have stronger reasons then ever yet we have seen to bear you out therein if you judge otherwise they ought to be esteemed lawfull Pastors to whom you grant the power of Excommunication Bishops being now taken away and may not therefore ordain according to the present Laws of the Land The said Dr Bernard hath some animadvertisements upon that Letter in which Dr Usher doth deliver his judgement as above said and there shews that he was not in this Judgement of his singular He alledgeth Dr Davenant that pious and learned Bishop of Sarisbury as consenting with him in it in his determinations quaest 42. and produceth the principall of the Schooleman Gulielmus Parisiensis Gerson Durand c. and declares it to be the Generall opinion of the Schoolemen Episcopatum ut distinguitur à simplici sacerdotio non esse alium ordinem c. see pag. 130. of the aforenamed Book as also pag. 131.132 Where the concurrence of Dr Davenant with Dr Vsher in his judgement about this matter is declared more fully He addes also others as in speciall Dr Richard Field in his learned Book of the Church lib. 3. cap. 39. and lib. 5. cap. 27. And also that Book intituled A defence of the Ordination of the Ministers of the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas maintained by Archdeacon Mason against the Romanists And further he saith He hath been assured it was not onely the Judgement of Bishop Overall but that he had a principall hand in it He tell us that the fore-mentioned Author produceth many testimonies The Mr of the Sentences and most of the Schoolemen Bonaventure Thomas Aquinas Durand Dominicus Soto Richardus Armachanus Tostatus Alphonsus a Castro Gerson Petrus Canisius to have affirmed the same and at last quoteth Medina a principall Bishop of the Councill of Trent who affirmed That Jerome Ambrose Augustine Sedulius Primasius Chrysostome Theodoret Theophylact were of the same judgment also But you may see these things your selves in Dr Bernard pag. 132 133 134. Wee have been onely at the pains to transcribe them Wee could alledg many more Testimonies to prove this But wee count these sufficient and do alledg these the rather because brought by one that is of the same Judgment with you as wee suppose But having declared how farr you accord with us in Judgment touching the way of informing the ignorant and reforming the wicked persons and schismatical c. you tell us That you are not therein so wavering and unsettled in your apprehensions of the Case as to submit either it or them either wholly or in part to the contrary Judgment and determination of a general Council of the Eastern and Western Churches much lesse to a new termed Provincial Assembly at Preston wherein you professe no little to differ from us That which wee submitted wholly to the Judgment of the Provincial Assembly was not whether Catechizing was a way appointed by God in his Word for the information of the ignorant but in what way of Catechizing as is expressed in our Paper the ignorant in our Congregations who never offered themselves unto the Sacrament were most like to be brought to some measure of knowledg and which is not a matter of Doctrine but of Order onely Neither was it by us submitted to that Assembly whether the censures of the Church were the means appointed by Christ for the reforming of the scandalous But whether it might not be meet pro hic nunc and as the present case stood to apply the Censures and so put in practice at this time that which in the General wee were sufficiently assured from the word of Truth was the way for their reformation and with which wee were both by God and Man intrusted to dispense unto those that were openly scandalous in our Congregations However they contented themselves to live in the want of the Lords Supper nor ever presented themselves to the Eldership to be admitted to it And this because meerely circumstantiall as to the dispencing of the Censures at