are without you have nothing to do with them The censures of the Church are Gods Ordinance for that end and are most effectual But for that compulsive power you speak of it savours of the Tyrannie of Antichrist and so doth your title of Ecclesiastical Magistrate which title I have not heard used by anie Orthodox Minister since the Lord Bishops those Popish Ecclesiastical Magistrates were cashiered who were indeed neither Magistrates nor Ministers but like the Pope between both Pr. I confess the Elders formerly chosen some years since in my Parish have refused to act to my great grief But now lately I my self and the Church-wardens have nominated others and the Parish have assented to the choice and although the persons chosen will not take upon them the Office of the Eldership yet they have assented to joyne with me in debarring the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table which is a chief point of Reformation and I rejoice much in it Ph. How did you prevail to bring the business so far Pr. I had found some difficultie in it but that at last I gave the honest partie who best liked our proceedings good satisfaction and so the choice was verie free and unanimous none opposing Ph. How was that possible seeing all the people within your Parish liked not of your proceeding how came it to pass that none declared against it Pr. I do confess some few there are in my Parish whom I knew to be of contrarie judgement and some stick not to say our proceedings are Antichristian and have no foundation in the word of God but I took a course to have all such absent when the matter was debated and at the choice of those Assistants Ph. What course did you take I desire to know for I have heard you censured for that business Pr. First I conferred with the wealthiest best and most leading men in my Parish before I came to the choice some in private and some in companie with others at several meetings and gave them satisfaction and these I knew would draw the most of the common sort And for the rest whom I knew I could not convince I warned them publickly in the Church to absent themselves and by message privately I desired such as I thought would oppose to forbear to hinder us in that business And by this means and by telling the men who were to be chosen that they should only assist mee in keeping the scandalous and ignorant from the Communion and do nothing els they assented and I hope whll cheerfully joyne with me in that work Ph. Now do you think this is a sufficient Reformation Pr. It is a principal part thereof we must wait untill we can bring on the rest Ph. It seems there your pretended Elders are no Elders but assistant I am sorrie you have shewed your self so bold as to set up a new Office in your pretended Parish Church shew me where ever anie man pretending to be a Minister of Christ by himself or with two three or four more usurped that power over a thousand persons as you and your new fashion Elders if they be rul'd by you intend to do I confess in the Popish Congregations and lately here in England the same was practised The Bishop or his Chancellour with a Presbyter or Minister did excommunicate or debar from the Sacrament but in worst times no man could be suspended without a Presbyter joyning in that act And the Church-Wardens which are yet in request were assistants to the Priest as your new fashion Elders are and both alike keep Christ out of his Kingdom and so most suitable to your Parish Churches which are not fit for lawfull Elders no more then they are capeable of lawful Ministers Pr. I have erected no new Office but the same which the Scripture holds forth only their power is limited by mutual assent of them and the Minister And for the exercise of that power in keeping the scandalous and profane from the Sacrament it is included within and is part of their Office Mat. 18. 17. where the Church signifieth the Ministers and Elders who are the representative Church for the rest it s answered before Ph. That question concerning the Church I will not enter into but leave it to the learned who have sufficiently discussed it But for my part I am confident no such construction can be made of that place for the Church alwaies signifieth the whole bodie Ministers and people or the members distinct from the Officers Pr. This question being one of the principles upon which all the Controversies between us and the Independents are founded I shall wholly wave you you have heard my opinion in publick to which I adhere and shall do untill I see better cause to alter my judgement Ph. Let that pass but what was the reason why you carried the business of chusing your pretended Elders so clandestinely and with such policie without hearing other mens opinions who were of contrarie judgment Pr. To tell you the truth I feared opposition and that the work may be hindered and therefore I desired to avoid all occasions and to carrie on the work as smoothly as I could and I am glad of it Ph. It s a sign you think your mettal is naught because you fear the Touch-stone The truth seeks no corners but in light shines more clearly Pr. The truth may have opposition and yet is the same still We fear not the touchstone but the sleights of men who most oppose those things which are best Ph. It seems now you have your desire what proceedings have you made towards Reformation do your pretended Elders act according to your minde do you think they perform their dutie Pr. Yea truly I have much comfort in them and doubt not but we shall separate the precious from the vile and yesterday we made a verie hopeful beginning insomuch as they undertooke to do in joyning with me to keep the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table Ph. What course did you take to make that separation Pr. The Elders refer it to me to examine all those who were to communicate the week before they came to the Sacrament and accordingly I published my intention not to admit anie who did not come to the Church at the time appointed to be examined And manie of my Parish came and submitted themselves to be examined accordingly Ph. Your pretended Elders are verie confident it seems they see with your eyes and hear with your ears But I pray you what did you finde by examining those who came to you and concerning what did you examine them Pr. I questioned those whom I suspected to be ignorant about the grounds of Religion and touching the nature of the Sacraments and and for others whom I feared not I did not examine them at all although some of those came to me and others sent in their names and I entred them all in a Book as well such as appeared as those who sent
Parish and not follow Sectaries and seducing teachers If these and such like were looked to and observed the Church and Common-wealth would soon bee quiet and the want of these things is the occasion of all the miseries which wee lie under as well the late Warrs as all the sad effects thereof Ph. Indeed War is an heavie judgment and I think I may truly say that the rigid Presbyterians to advance those things you have mentioned and other worldly respects and carnal ends have been the occasions thereof Pr. How can that bee Ph. By their preaching and prayings they have everie where disgraced the Parlament stirred up the people against the Armie incouraged Neuters and Malignants and put the English and Scot's Malignants in hope to finde a partie strong enough in England to destroie both Parlament and Armie Pr. I confess wee have justly complained against the Parlament and Armie becaus the one did not settle the Presbyterian-government and the other countenanced all Sectaries and Hereticks but wee did it not to the end to destroie the Parlament Ph. What ever your intents were I am sure your practice was abominable you fill'd all places with your clamors and out-cries against the Parlament and Armie as the Scotch Ministers likewise did untill you and they had conjured up more evil spirits then you could allaie And I am confident had it not been for the men of your faction who prepared the people for a new War by the courses aforesaid neither our conquered enemies at home nor the Scots durst have attempted anie more to make head against us Pr. What prejudice can the Parlament or Armie receiv by the Ministers It 's well known wee praied for them both And what can you object against our Praiers or Preaching Ph. I could fill a volume with your reproaches and evil surmises scandals disgraces calumnies and other unsavorie matter by you cast upon the Parlament and Armie in your Sermons for a taste whereof view the book called the Pulpit-Incendiarie and let anie man judg whether this did not much alienate the people's hearts from the Parlament and Armie And for your praiers for them they were for the most part like your Sermons and still in your Sermons and praiers you speak of the Armie as enemies Pr. Well it was time for the Ministers to speak and praie and deal plainly with the people when all things were grown into such confusion and disorder as they were far wors then under the Episcopal Government Ph. I do confes there were disorders but the Churches are not in so bad a condition as under the Prelacie for that Hierarchie was Antichristian Pr. I denie that it may bee som things injoined by the Prelates were Antichristian but not they as they stood in the Church of England for Antichrist wheresoever hee is described in Scripture is described by his fals doctrine and manie of our Bishops were Orthodox men free from Popish Errors and Heresies Ph. I 'le grant you they might hold fundamental truths and yet their calling bee Antichristian for who know's not that Antichrist is described as well by his power pride crueltie blasphemie hypocrisie and idolatrie as by fals Doctrine Rev. 17. 1 2 3 4 5. 18. 3. 13. 2 6 11. Ph. Well notwithstanding what you saie if Episcopacie had been lopped the abuses taken away those which were naught removed and good men put in their rooms wee had never seen these disorders and confusions for that government although but prudential as som would have it was an excellent means for staying the growth of errours and heresies in the Church Ph. Indeed that was the pretence at first but the cure was worse then the disease for it proved a heavie scourge to the Church of God and out of that egge grew the Serpent that Antichrist the head of Prelacie and I conceive that Government could never have been profitable to the Churches of Christ Pr. I will say no more of that Hierarchie seeing the same is abolished and the State hath thought fit to take it away but why is not the Church setled Ph. What do you mean by a Church in Gospell sense Pr The word CHURCH besides the general acceptation of it signifying all the Elect hath a double signification 1. It 's taken for a particular Congregation so many as may or do meet together to partake in divine Ordinances or as wee call it a Parish and so the word Church is strictly taken 2. But the word Church in a larger sens comprehends not onely such a company but also the Christians in a whole countrie as Ephesus and Achaia and so many Thousands who could not possibly meet together in one place yet they are called a Church Act. 2. 41. 21. 20. Ph. Time will not permit mee to enter into that controversie but for mine own part I am satisfied that the Churches under the Gospel are not Oecumenical National Provincial or Diocesan but * Congregational which Congregational Churches ought to consist of so many Christiâ—ns as may join in Christian fellowship and communion under one Pastor who ought to convers with them and know their state and condition and apply his Ministrie answerably unto them but for your greater Church and Parish Church I acknowledg none such Pr. However you think yet it is plain in that place of Act. 2. 41. 21. 20. where the Christians were many Thousands Myriads they are called the Church c. Ergò c. Ph. It 's evident the word Church applied to so many Thousands as you speak of is not to bee taken properly but tropically and so by a Synechdoche it may bee taken for many Churches or els for part of the Catholick Church which manner of speaking is usu al in a Scripture But I marvell why you should endeavouâ— to prove that a Church in Gospel sense should contain more Christians then can convene in one place to partake in Divine Ordinances Pr. I doe it to let you know that men of greater parts and learning may have more dignitie and superintendencie and also a greater reward and encouragement Ph. So plead the Papists and the polititians amongst the superstitious Protestants of this last age for the Prelacy and Hierarchy who affirme that the Angells of the seven Churches of Asia and Timothy and Titus who were Evangelists were Diocesan Bishops And the same argument likewise serves for maintenance of the Bishop of Rome his preheminencie above all other Bishops which I think you will not defend Pr. I will not dispute the right of Episcopal government seeing with us it 's abolished but you must admit a difference and degrees amongst Ministers and Churches or greater inconveniences will follow for the Parishes which are the particular Congregations are not all of a bigness nor equall and I think they are well divided conducing much to my purpose Ph. The Pope and his agents dealt not so equally in that point as they might have done It s true that
the oversight of all the Churches in their Diocesses some peculiars excepted and put in and put out at their pleasures and this must be allowed for the people surrendred or rather yeilded up by compulsion into the hands of these wolves pretending to be Shepherds all their right and power But alas this grew through corruption of time when Antichrist was come to his height then he and his Prelates inthralled the Churches and wrested from the poor people that right which the Gospel gave unto them and which continued for the first three hundred years after Christ as is confessed by the Papists and Protestants Fullers holy state li 2. ca. 12. pa. 87. Acts 1. 23. 6. 5. Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 19. Sect. 31 14. Se. 31. Cath Divine An. Caudrey Case Prefa sect. 8. Magd Cent. 2. ca 7. cent 3. c. 7 Cipr. epist. l. 1. epist. 4. epist. 3. l. 1. 3. epist. 11. But these Wolves made void the Law of God by their Traditions and the slavish Ministerie of England are unwilling to come out of this Babylonish servitude but with Issachar because he sees rest is good or rather his Benefice fat he croucheth down under the burthen But see the use and equitie of it in our dayes it may be at the first this power of presentation was given to a good man or rather he took it because he founded or endowed the Church but by revolution of times it comes by descent or purchase to an Atheist a Papist a Symonist or some wretch not fit to be trusted with the life and death of a dog much less with the soules of men And by this means the souls of men according to that Prophecie become the merchandize of Rome for who seeth them not set to sale almost by every Patron yea and their bodies too Rev. 18. 13. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} for according to the number of the people and the profit of their bodily labours is the Advowson sold for more or less And I know no other way in all the world how the bodies and souls of men can be made the merchandize of Rome but by this means nor is the Prophecie any other way fulfilled for if it should be meant of selling slaves that properly belongs to the Turks Pr. But I told you although some Patrons prove Latrons and sell the Presentations the people may except against the partie presented if he be not a worthie man and if they do not it s their own fault Ph. You had need to have more skill in Divinitie then you have in the Law Alas this Libertie is but a meer gullerie and cousenage of the people If any one refuse to admit or do keep out the partie presented And a quare impedit or such Writ be brought to trie the right Gods Law never comes into question but only who hath the best title to present by the Law of the Land which is Popish in that point as in manie others the Lord of heaven amend it and lookes only upon the presentation as a temporal right without judging the matter as appertaining to Religion therefore I pray you speak no more of this matter for the more you stir in in it the more it stinks But shew me some better evidence of your calling Pr. I will shew you sufficient Wee have abilities and gifts fit for the Ministerie being apt to teach and able to divide the word of truth aright And our Ministerie is sealed by the conversion of soules and however our outward calling in a nicetie may be defective yet we have the inward which is most effectuall and therefore there is no cause of separation Ph. For your calling I account it not right for what you formerly alledged And for that you last said its no proofe that your calling to the Ministerie is lawful for a private man may be abundantly gifted yea and convert souls as common experience sheweth and yet have no calling to the Ministerie And this I dare farther add and know by mine own observation that God doth not bless the Ministers labours who have received the mark of the Beast by their conformities and subscriptions as he doth the labours of other faithful men And the reason is because they stood not in Gods wayes for if they had they should have turned the people from their iniquities But for want of a faithful Ministerie it hath pleased God to blesse the endeavours of godly Parents and religious governours of families and private Christians who with Joshua serve the Lord to the conversion of many more souls then are turned unto God by these mens Ministery how learned and Orthodox soever So that where a man can hardly finde any converted by the Ministery of these men he may finde the footsteps of Religion and godlinesse derived from religious Parents and Families for the continuance of the Church from generation to generation even to admiration And your old conformitie and Subscription which you are constrained to defend by Popish arguments when you have to deal against the Brownists and Independents are a great blemish to the Ministery Pr. We subscribed to nothing which was unlawfull although many things were inconvenient Ph. Thanks bee to God that we be rid of the Hierarchy of Arch-bishops Diocesan Bishops Arch-Deacons Deans and the rest of that rabble the Books of Common-prayer Homilies consecration of Priests and Deacons with the spiritual Courts Licenses Dispensations Commutations of Pennance Consecration of daies to Saints and some to wicked men and Idols as the Crosse and the Rhoode daies observed by some forbidding of meats and marriage at some times with their Canons and Ceremonies Crosses Surplices worship of the breaden God and many other popish trinkets All which the most ingenious amongst your selves have condemned as not capable of purgation but fit to be abolished else I could easily prove the whole body of them which are contained in your Subscription most of them being injoyned and set forth in the Rubrick and the rest comprehended in your Oath and Canonicall obedience to be reliques of Antichris◠〈…〉 by that man of sin and his vaâ—â—â—ls and are at the best humane presumptions brought into the Church without warrant of the Word Vid. Preface to the Common-prayer Book or teaching Ceremonies which Christ onely ought to appoint who is the Teacher of his Church and serve for nothing else but to mis-leade the simple and to offend the weak and tend onely to conformity with Rome And therefore altogether unlawfull But cheifly the Cross which in Baptism is made the sign and Seal of the whole work of Sanctification is the worst of all Popish Ceremonies and the greatest Idol in the Romish Church except the Virgin Marie for that blesseth all the rest and therefore is the greater as Bellarmine teacheth Bellar. Contr. de sacra Confer. l. 2. c. 13. pa. 371. These things you know better then I do yet I name them thus briefly that you may consider
as I have described The Prebendaries and their appurtenances are justly cashiered see now if it be not high time to pluck up those also Pr. It doth not appear to me there is any evill in these names you shall find many godly and Orthodox Divines Parsons Vicars and Curats who shew themselves glad to be quit of all the Ceremonies and heartily desire a through reformation and some of these are not ashamed of the name Priest Ph. I pray sir forsake these Apocryphal and Popish names for a great part of the Religion of Antichrist is wrapped up in such names of his Creation as Cardinals Abbots Priors Arch-Bishops Lord Bishops Deanes Arch-Deacons Chancellrs Commissaries Parsons Officials Vicars Curats Priests c. Pr. For all these names and Orders but the four last we have nothing to do with them and what harm is in any of these four names or what offence comes by them I know not Ph. I shall endeavor to let you know somewhat of that evill which I conceive of them 1. First in their Institution and original they having no foundation in the Scripture are of Antichrists devising and in their nature and use contrarie or unlike to the Ministers of the Gospel who are only Pastors and Teachers For their original they grew up in this manner The Diocesan Bishop who in corrupt times was conceived to have the care of all the Churches in his Diocess which for the most part were endowed with all the Tythes of the Parish did usually appoint the Preists or Ministers which indeed were but the Bishops Curates or Clerks Fullers holy State Lib. 2. cap. 12. p. 87. citeth Conci Toledon An. 589. Can. 9. Now when the Bishop had given to the Minister the cure of souls and care of the Church with all the Tithes and profitâ— thereof undiminished by his Institution he was called the Rector or Parson which verie Institution being accepted was an acknowledgment that the right to the Church was originally in the Bishop and that made the Parson but the Bishops Curate or rather servant or Clerk and so it continued until the dissolution of the Bishopricks 2. Secondly the Vicar as a Clergie-man said was created or rather made by the Devil or the Pope for when the Parson grew too great or the Patron had founded a Monasterie or other superstitious house towards the maintenance thereof the tithes of several Parishes which formerly belonged to the Churches were appropriated and this was done by the Patron with consent of the Bishop and the incumbent Priest if there were any and sometimes this Appropriation was made by vertue of the Popes Bull and then the care of the Church was in the Governour of the house or otherwise according to the foundation who served the cure as they called it that is performed the Idolatrous service by a Monck of their house who was called the Vicar and to him there was allowed for his paines sometimes a stipend in monie sometimes the small Tithes c. such a proportion as he could agree for with his Master the Governor of the house And when the house came to the Crown by dissolution it stood charged with that stipendâ— or else the Vicar had the smal Tithes or such part thereof as formerly was agreed for and the Bulk of the Tithes became a Lay fee and were sold out and enjoyed as the superstitious house held them and the Composition or endowment of the Vicar remained and so continues as his portion to this day for serving the Church c. But usually he had his institution from the Bishop 3. Thirdly the Curate grew in this manner when the Bishop held a Parsonage in commendam in his own hands to augment his Bishoprick or a Parson grew idle or had severall Church-livings then they hired some inferior Priest for what they could to supplie the cure for a year a moneth or as they could agree and he was called the Curate who came and went according to his pay and at the discretion or will of him that hired him and so he continues to this day I tell you these things not because I suppose you know them not but to put you in minde how unlike these orders are to the Ministers of the Gospel for you see the Gospel had nothing to do to approve or disapprove of the pretended Minister Parson Vicar or Curate but all was originally in the Pope or in the Bishop his Vicegerent from whom the Bishop originally received his power which continued here in force for manie hundred years Cath. Devin. Respons Cook l. Caudrey Case pa. 4. And for the name Priest its true it is a contract of Presbyter but as it s used it commonly signifies a Popish Mass Priest and is a a derogation from the Office of the Lord Christ for I know none other sacrificing Priest in Gospel-sense but Christ who was the last Priest and the last Sacrifice Pr. Well I account there is no evill in these nams yet for offence sake I shall be willing to leave them and do conceive that the Ministers of the Gospel who are to continue to the perfecting of the Saints are properly Pastors and Teachers who ought to be maintained liberally and to have all incouragement by payment of all things due unto them Ph. I have alreadie told you what I conceive of their maintenance and particularly what I think of tithes But there is one thing which I wonder at why the Ministers should stand so much upon superstitious offerings and mortuaries Pr. They have been anciently belonging to the Church and although they of the Separation say they were the things of Idolaters I doubt not but they may be used being converted from their Idolatrous use Ph. As for those offerings which it seems you agree to be Popish as indeed the most of those Offerings were which were offered at the Altar called the Altarage of the Church some to Saints Idols or Devils to whom the Churches were dedicated others to the Virgin-Marie Some for Tapers and Lights and other superstitious uses others taken from the Jewes by the Papists I conceive all these unfit to be given to or received for the service of God for that some things of Idolaters not Idolatrous in State as their goods and houses may be made use of for maintenance of the service of God But those things of theirs which were Idolatrous in State that is such as were invented by Idolaters for perfecting their Idolatrie and served for no other use as all Popish Ceremonies and popish offerings ought not to be used by Christians And for those Jewish offerings it is no more lawful to use them to retain Circumcision and other Ceremonies of which Paul saith If you be circumcised Christ profits you nothing Gal. 5. 2. for that the retaining of Circumcision is a forsaking of Christ and makes us bound to fulfill the Law and with that all other Jewish Ceremonies are abolished And touching Mortuaries they are a foolish and
professing Christianitie are not members of the visible Church but such as are admitted as Church-Members Pr. Well what ever some others think in all places in this Land where Parishes are divided there is either a lawfull Minister or one who stands in place of such who in some degree preacheth or at least publisheth by reading the word of God and administreth the Sacraments to the people therefore in charitie they ought to be accounted the Church of God Ph. The division of Parishes and such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of are not sufficient to give the Parish Congregation the denomination of a visible Church of Christ For then must almost all the Congregations under the Papacie be visible Churches for amongst them the Parishes are divided and so they were in England almost 340. before any Reformation And those Popish Congregations had the word of God dailie read nay and preached constantly and expounded in manie places by their Friers and Postillers as may be seen by their works in Print Nay and their verie Mass-Books have much of the word of God in them although most miserably corrupted and mingled with their own inventions They have also had both Sacraments amongst the Papists for a long time and have yet at least Calvin Instit. l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 11. Baptisme mingled with Popish Ceremonies of which the Cross is the worst and some other footsteps of a true Church And if these had made a Congregation a true Church poore Penry was unwise to publish that a great part of Wales never had the face of a Church of Christ the Parishes being divided and the Churches furnished with such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of Yet he and others have formerly charged the State with refusing the Gospel and rejecting Christ and his pure worship in as much as there was no Reformation although it cost him and others their lives for their boldnes Entri Cook Judit pa. 352. Pr. You speak of dark Corners of the Land as if none were in better condition you may finde amongst the manie thousand Parishes of this Nation manie visible Churches of Christ and mine in particular Ph. I doubt not but there are manie visible Churches of Christ in this Common-wealth and true Ministers of Christ lawfully called But when I pray you became your Parish to be a true visible Church of Christ Pr. My Parish hath been a visible Church ever since it was instituted and the Church founded you know not the contrarie and therefore ought to admit it having so continued beyond the memorie of man until this day Ph. When was your Church founded Pr. You your self have confessed that the Gospel was planted in England before Poperie came to its height and the Ministerie and Churches were then setled and had succession from the Apostles daies shew me when the Succession failed Ph. If I should admit the place that you call Church viz. the meeting Place to have been built before Poperie yet this proves not that the Congregation is a visible Church your succession hath had several interruptions and discontinuance First it is to be considered that the whole Current of Historie agree that the Romans commanded the better part of Brittaine from the time of Julius Caesar until Theodosius the younger which was almost five hundred years and the tenth Persecution about 337. years after Christ during which time there were not above five of the Emperours who were either Christians or shewed favour to Christians but generally all the rest first or last in their times were wicked Persecutors Heathens and worshippers of Idols some of which by exquisite Torments wasted the Churches of Christ and drove the Professors into corners they not daring to meet in publick When the Roman Empire was broken or at least was grown to an ebb the Saxons invaded this Island and about the year foure hundred and fiftie the Brittains were beaten into Wales by Gormundus and thence grew the great Colledge of Moncks at Bangor with whom Austin contended And the Saxons as well as the Romans were Heathens and had their Idol Priests Flammins and Arch Flammins like the late Bishops and Arch-Bishops for dignitie and Power and these continued until about six hundred years after Christ where is now your Succession Pr. But yet there were manie faithful Christians both Pastors and others in the worst times and I could tell you of manie who suffered Martyrdome for Christ's cause in this Nation and if we cannot prove Succession it is rather for want of the light of Historie then for that there were no such Churches or Pastors Nevertheless from the time of the abolishing of the Heathens Hierarchie and Idolatrie which was done by King Ethelbert above a thousand years since we have a verie fair Succession Ph. This indeed manie of you boast of but it makes little for your purpose To omit to speak of the miserie brought upon this Land and the decay of the true Religion by meanes of the incursions or rather Conquests of the Saxons and Danes after Ethelberts time It is certain and you cannot denie it that all your successions both of Ministerie and Parish-Churches came from your Mother the Church or rather the Whore of Rome who had all at her devotion until King Henrie the eight drove out the Pope and kept Poperie Cath. Divine An. Caudreys Case P. 108. 109. Bed l. 1. Hist. Angl. ca. 22. 27. Pr. Well its true that for about five hundred years untill the Reformation began the Bishop of Rome usurped authoritie over the Church of England but yet all did not submit alike some faithfull men escaped both Ministers and people as John Wickliff and his followers persecuted by the name of Lollards who grew in great number even in our Countrie about two hundred years before the Reformation From which time of Reformation you cannot denie but that my Parish in particular hath been a true visible Church where there hath been a competent number of faithful people and a Minister who claimed nothing from Rome for the Popes Supremacie was abolished by King Henrie the eight as you now said Ph. If the rejecting of the Popes Supremacie make your Parish a true Church then likewise are the most of the Popish Congregations of France true Churches for they likewise have rejected or refused to receive the Popes Supremacie and have not received the Councel of Trent but have had a Pope a Cardinal of their own for manie years past And Cardinal Richelieu called a Prince of the Church was as great a Pope as William Laud late Prelate of Canterburie Marc. de vulson des Libert. de'l Eglise Gallicane lib. 3. pa 233. 234. 235. Pr. You cannot denie the Succession of faithful Ministers which if you admit you must also admit the Succession of Churches since the time of Reformation Ph. For your Succession its a mear dream If at any time there was no visible Parish-Churches then was there no Pastors of those Churches
in the Church untill the harvest are hypocrites profane men shall be cashiered or rather never admitted into the Churches of Christ But I cannot devise how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seem as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5. 1. compared with chap. 3. 1. 3. chap. 4. 10. Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit. l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14. 23. Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I hâ—ld it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert. de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9 And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he hath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had