of it Wherefore seeing that a motive power is no motive power any further then it can or ought to be able to motive the Emperiall power which cannot move further then it reigneth nor ought not to move further cannot consequently command any further then his territory at the uttermost The power of the cheife Pastor of the Universal Church is coextended to the Universal Church All Bishops of the Universal being to be moved must be moved by such a power as this is If Emperours called councils it was not by an Ecclesiastical calling such an one as the Pope called them by at the very selfe same time but the Emperours calling was only political proceeding from a temporal power subserving to the Ecclesiastical and not able to force them by censure in case of refusing to come as the Ecclesiastical power could which power implored the Emperiall assistance to concurre with her only for the more effectual excution Perhaps somtimes Emperours might venture to call dependently of the ratification of the supreme Pastor which they presumed would be assuredly obtained in so just necessities as there seemed to presse for a speedy meeting If Emperors were present in Councels it was only by their presence and good countenance to honor encourage and further the proceedings of the Councel and to passe their Vote in points of beliefe You add something else now but it comes again presently Fifthly you object How shall we know that every one of the Councel hath a free election to it and a free decisive Vote in it I answer the freedome of every mans calling is made evidently credible by the publick sūmons sent through the whole Christian world obeyed by the same without any pertinatious opposition and the answerable publick apperance from all parts of the world every one exhibiting the publickely authenticated testimony of his election and confirmation If any man be excluded he may without he will renounce his right be heard in the Councel which being a publick hearing the matter cannot but be known Many yet never were nor can be thus injured without making their injury notorious by publik protestations and such lik remedies alwayes used against unjust exclusion or hinderance of liberty in Voting If the Councel be known notoriously to use such procedings we are not to acknowledg it for a lawfull Councel Again as private mens proceedings are not to be judgeed bad unless they can be proved to be so much lesse ought the proceedings of the Church representative to be judged bad without sufficient proof of the contrary And when such evident and notorious ill proceedings are not apparent nothing can be solidly objected against the lawfulness of the Councel And therefore it being to be admitted as a lawfull Councel it belongeth to the Holy Ghost to provide that their difinitions be not prejudiciall to the Church put under his protection and direction You only look what the inward nature of humane malice might act but you should also look to the extrinsical over-ruling providence promised by God against humane malice and weakness This is that which maketh all these factions and bandings and domineering self interest never to be effectually destructive of that secure direction promised by God to his Church Though hell gates should be set wide open they should not prevaile against her Sixthly you ask how shall ignorant people be divinely perswaded that the Councel is general I answer the publick Summons to the Councel sent through the Christian world The Publick appearance of Prelats made upon these summons from all parts of the world Their publick sitting publick subscribing publick divulging their decrees and definitions acknowledged truly to be theirs by all present denied by no man to be theirs with the least shew of probability no more then such an Act is denied to be the Act of such a Parliament All these motives I say maketh it evidently credible to the ignorant and to the learned that this is the true definition of the Church Now this being evidently credible to be her definition and I believing by divine faith all her definitions to be true I also believe this definition amongst the rest to be true It is a great signe you are ill furnished with strong arguments when you would perswade us that in things so easy to be known there be such insuperable difficulties The Councel of Trents definitions concerning faith were never opposed by France though some things ordained for practice seemed lesse sutable to the particular state of that Kingdome yet this difficulty was at last removed Seventhly you ask how many Bishops in the Trent Councel were furnished with a title to over-power the rest for the Popes ends I pray Sir tell me how many But tell me by credible witnesses such as are their own subscriptions who can assure me of this truth And when you have told me this give me leave to aske what one of them was as much as suspected to be of a faith different from the rest If they differed not in faith from the rest how then can the Pope be suspected to have acted against faith by making such Bishops Again doth the making of such Bishops make the holy Ghost unable to order things so in the councel that nothing shall happen destructive of the secure direction undertaken to be afforded for ever by him Saul shall sooner turn a Prophet and Caiphas shall prophecie not knowing what he doth before the spirit of truth sent to teach the Church all truth shall faile in his duty Eightly you ask how the Church was provided for when for so many yeares there was no Pope defining with a Councel This time you mean was the first three hundred years after Christ when for persecution no Council could be gathered All this time the known doctrine of the Apostles remained so fresh and so notorious by the Tradition of the Church diffused and there remained also so Universal a respect and obedience to the cheife Bishop of the Church notoriously known to be the upholder of true doctrine that the Church wanted not meanes to decide Controversies as farre as the necessity of those times required whence the Quartodecimani although they opposed nothing set down clearly in Scripture were Iudged Heretikes for opposing the doctrine of the first Church made evidently known by fresh Tradition Now as the Church could want Councils for so many years so it could want Councils for the short space of schism For the necessity of new declarations it not so frequent at least in any high degree of necessity calling for instant remedy and a reme-of this nature only Scripture alone you say will remedy this necessity We besides scripture have alwayes at hand the many definitions of former Councils and the known Traditions of the Church which alone served Gods Church in those two thousand yeares before Scripture and for two thousand yeares more served the faithful amongst the Gentiles who had not the Scriptures which remained almost solely and alone
those who have not Bishops some of them would have them if it were in their power as Bogerman said in the Council of Dort when that Government was commended to him Domine nos non sumus adeo felices And as for those who are ordained without Bishops were this our case we may be as sure they are true Ministers as the Papists can assure themselves that they have true Priests in respect of the uncertainties they are under of the due intention of the Priest in Baptism and of the Bishop in Ordination As to Deacons they might have been left out of the rank with Priests as to true Sacraments for it will not appear that Deacons are appointed jure Divino to assist the Ministers in the Sacraments and if so yet not to be necessary to true Sacraments that they do assist otherwise no true Sacraments What shall this also with the Romans goe into the account of articles of faith And shall this be as necessary to be believed as that Jesus is the Christ Sacraments things so necessary to the salvation of all men This we have spoken to before and it comes in here under a simple diction and not positively as it may be interpteted affirmed or if so necessary be to be taken signanter then is it more easily denied as to all men Our former distinction is yet good necessary by necessity of precept not by necessity of mean Neither is the other Sacrament so necessary as that and yet are they put together upon equall necessity The Sacraments bind us not God to work only by them And also are they administred as duely with us as elswhere Then he brings in a Syllogism against us out of my own words What is not plainly delivered in Scripture is thereby signified not to be necessary but it is not plainly delivered in Scripture that the Church should be governed by Bishops with such and such authority Thus he would bring in some of those who differ from them and us in this point disputing against Bishops But how would he conclude Therefore not necessary to salvation unlesse he concludes thus it doth not contradict us in our debate And if he does conclude so he concludes beside their intention for they would conclude no more than that they are not necessary to the Government of the Church because it is not held by others that this Government with such and such authoritie is simply necessary to salvation But to the assumption we say dato that the Government of the Church by Bishops with such and such power is not plainly set down in Scripture yet let them shew as much out of Scripture with the practice of the Church for the Bishop of Rome his being universall Bishop as we can shew out of Scripture for Bishops with some authority superior to Presbyters and I shall think better of their cause And therefore let them remember Parvi sunt foris Arma nisi est Consilium domi Let them make sure at home before they combate us with our own contentions For secondly as for such and such authority if he takes it for the Mathematicall point and indivisible degree which the Bishop must have of authority over the rest of the Clergie who is there that so contends it but the Roman Some superiority in the latitude may be able to conserve the form and this is more easily proveable out of Scripture with the practice of the Church But thirdly since he hath brought the Antepiscoparians upon the stage to make sport for them what will the Pontificians say if this argument be in earnest brought against them whatsoever is necessary is plainly set down in Scripture Government by Bishops with such and such authoritie is not plainly set down in Scripture therefore not necessary The major proposition is yet true and good against all his batteries The minor is to have their advice whether they will affirm it or deny it let them speak categorically is it plainly set down or not If it be plainly set down then this instance is against them if it be not plainly set down then they have nothing plainly set down for the Bishop of Rome upon the former rule if there be no Bishop plainly set down then not the Bishop of Rome This he gets by our contentions As for the form of ordaining Priests or Presbyters it is sufficiently set down and we have it practised with us without the Patin and the Chalice and that none but those who are Priests formally or eminently as being more should blesse the bread and consecrate the Sacrament this is clearly enough set down and what kind of bread for the Sacrament as much as is necessary is set down The Pontifician hath no reason if he considers himself to urge all particularities about the Sacraments since he accounts them so necessary would God pinch that which is necessary under so many contingences which he doth not ordinarily provide against Therefore either they are not necessary and then why are they insisted in Or if necessary yet not in all the severall circumstances for then under how many accidentalities should salvation be included He says then he could add many more particulars to the former kind no lesse necessary to be decided If no more necessary it is not like to trouble us Or if necessary they should be decidable by plain Scripture Yes if necessary to salvation And then your Doctors could not jarr about them This I deny and he had better have taken our grant that those of this sort are not plainly set down in Scripture unlesse he had proved it more strongely than by our differences It is possible to differ in plain things but we need not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 St. Mark the 6. 53. And again this is retorted Many things might be named which were in the opinion of some Pontificians no lesse necessary to be decided than the point of originall sin the immaculate conception of the Virgin the point of Residence and of Bishops whether by Divine right and yet are they not determined in the Trent Council no nor those neither positively But it may be they are not necessary for if necessary they should be decidable by plain Decree of Council and then the Doctors could not jarr about them But to give a further check to this unreasonable exacting of such particularities to be plainly decided by Scripture let them consider generally how little was affirmatively defined and clearly in the Council of Trent Yea for further instance are these severals which he hath pointed at more necessary to be decided than the point of Indulgences which was the main point which occasioned the divisions of the Council consequently And yet was not this sufficiently handled yea as the Author of the History says the Protestants complained that the Synod had passed it over without clearing any doubt or deciding any Controversie If they could not or would not how shall we be bound under pain of damnation to take
namely by the Emperours without any contradiction of Councils Did the Nicene Council question Constantines authority to call Councils whether it was Divine or not How many humble expressions and actions of respect and subjection did come from the Councils and the Fathers which are not indeed suitable to the deportment of that Pope who trod upon the neck of Frederick the Emperour or of him that threw the Duke of Venice under his table with the dogs The competition then betwixt Emperours and Popes in point of Ecclesiastique authority as to the outward part of Religion will come to this No institution of Popes in their sense by Scripture There is under an Evangelicall promise an apopintment of kings to be nursing Fathers and of Queens to be nursing Mothers And in triumphum we might compare them as to the practice of the primitive times there was calling of Generall Councils by Emperours none by Popes till they usurped Therefore Ocham to the King may end it Tu me defende gladio ego te defendam verbo do you defend me with the Sword I will defeind you with the word This to his first answer Secondly as for the Praelates of the Church we can shew Divine institution Actes 20.28 Bishops placed by the Holy Ghost over all the flock to feed or govern the Church of God And Ephes. 4. Not lay Magistrates but only Ecclesiastical are said to be given us by Christ for the worke of the ministry c. Ans First I think that the adversaries living would goe near to starve if they would eate nothing before they proved that feeding there should be understood of governing as it must be unless he spoke in a proper disjunctiveness when he said feed or govern and if so he gives us leave to take it not for him who must get out of it the sense of governing this indeed is laboured by Bellarmin specially and he contests much for it with Luther in his first b. de Rom. Pontif. 15. ch Upon that which is said to St. Peter by Christ feed my sheep His argument is from the term 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which sometimes signifies to rule right but it doth not follow that it should therefore signifie so there upon the 21. of St. Iohn we may therefore confront him with a stronger argument 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is twice used there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but once Now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not signifie to rule therefore we should rather expound the other word by these then by it self And as for his instance out of the second Ps 9. ver where he would have the Hebrew to bear the same sense he is mistaken or worse as I think I have noted before for the Hebrew word there doth not at all signifie to feed but to break it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as in Ben Israels edition And by others though it be not read with a Vau yet there is a cholem and Montanus renders it conteres thou shalt break So then as to the former Text Acts 20.28 It can no way be proved that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there is to be construed to rule which is only to their purpose Yea Montanus and the Translation of the Syriack and of the Arabick and of the Aethiopick render it not by regere but by pascere Yea 2. Suppose that the word therefore doth signifie to govern yet doth it not therfore follow that the Text should be understood of Bishops of proper name but may be understood of simple Presbyters and without any derogation to Episcopal government because they have a power under the Bishops to rule their particular Churches namely their particular flocks although they have no power over the other pastours as the Bishops have who succeedeb the Apostles in the point of government as St. Ierom speaks in his Epistle to Evagrius 3. Suppose the verbe be to be understood of ruling and suppose that Text to mean as some proper Bishops taking 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in an higer notion yet my Adversaries will be yet disappointed of their end by that Text because we have found Divine institution of Kings and we cannot find in this Text an institution of Bishops to be above them in calling of Councils and ordering the outward part of the Church Yea 4. if that Text doth intend a power in them by the Holy Ghost of calling Councils then for ought I see the power must be primarily subjected in them and not in the Pope and therefore he must not be the chief pastour and Head of the Church which contradicts them if then they intend by the Text a proof of such a Divine institution of Praelates to govern the Church as to call Councils thereby this derogates from the Pope And if they intend not such a power to be given to the Praelates as to call Councils how doth this prove that the Pope is to call Councils from this Text Yea how do they prove that Kings or Emperours are not to call Councils for though Praelats are to govern the Church Yet Kings or Emperours might call Councils these are not opposits but agreeable because the Praelats may govern in sacris the Kings or Emperours circa sacra The speculative decision is to be by the Praelats the outward administration by the Emperours The potestas in actu signato in them in actu exercito in the Emperours And as for the other Text Eph. 4. We need say nothing or only this that the not naming of Lay Magistrates there doth not exclude them else where Doth it If it does not where is their argument If it doth then by the same law of consequence there are no Praelats to have any Divine Authority for the good of the Church because where it is said Kings shall be the nursing Fathers and Queens the nursing Mothers there is no mention of Ecclesiastical Praelats So then let them speak no more of the Fathers of the Church And then 2. This comes not to the point of the question that Lay Magistrates are not here spoken of but only Ecclesiasticall are said to be given us by Christ for the work of the Ministry for to the work of the ministry no man asserts the power of a Lay magistrate but external government is contradistiguished to the work of the ministry which consists in ministerial acts Yea 3. Is that Text to be understood of government of the Church If it be not then it is impertinently produced If it be then by his former argument the Pope is excluded because here is no mention of any appointment of him sub ratione singulritatis and in way of eminencie nay not of any priority and therefore he by this account in all his Pontificalaibus is but an human Creature Therefore upon the account of the Text we will stand our ground and not be carried about with every wind of doctrine Thirdly the Emperour is not by Divine institution Lord of the
Christian world the power of the chief Pastour of the universal Church is coextended to the universal Church Ans First Dato suppose there were by Divine institution which will never be proved a chief pastour of the universal Church yet the Emperour might be Lord of the Christian world too in his external faculty And therefore this concludes not 2. this Language was not knowen till Boniface the third in the seventh century The Roman Bishop had the honour to be called the Bishop of the first Sea or seate And yet not the first Bishop in way of jurisdiction 3. The Emperour may be as much Lord of the Christian world by Divine institution as well as the Pope for both are by election the Pope is to be chosen by Cardinals which cannot shew a Divine institution But then also he allowes Political proceeding from a temporal power yet he will not have it to be an Ecclesiastical calling such an one as the Pope called them by at the same time Ans Not Ecclesiastical subjective but Ecclesiastical objective it was And yet also Rex est mixta persona cum Sacerdote And therefore it may be the Hebrew word Cohen signifieth both Magistrate and Priest Order and freedom and time and place belong to the Magistrates administration And as for the Pope in their sense his giving an Ecclesiastical call at the same time it is utterly denied unless he could give a call before he was borne And as for the Bishop of Rome he met at Councils upon the same order with the rest Such things he should have proved rather then said And therefore that was falsly spoken by him that the Politicall proceeding was subservient to the Ecclesiastical Ans Non entis nulla accidentia There was no such Ecclesiasticall call by a Pope for there was no such Pope And 2. Though the Emperours calling was serviceable to Ecclesiasticall affairs yet the Ecclesiastical persons that met were servants to him therein And Bishops of Rome have not abhorred such acknowledgements herein And whereas some Romanists have compared the Pope to the Sunne and the Emperour to the Moon though some Popes since have eclipsed the Emperour yet some Emperours before have not only Eclipsed the Pope but have put him out Therfore had he good cause to say Peradventure sometimes Emperours might adventure to call dependently of the ratification of the supreme Pastour Ans surely there is more due when Adversaries will give so much Nimia perfectio parit suspicionem But this will not content us there was no real entity of such a Supreme Pastour Nor was he so much as then Ens rationis No the foure Generall Councils a primo ad ultimum were menaged in the call and ratification by the Emperours They gave them not onely countenance and a vote in point of belief but also their external establishment They began and ended them Idem est principium destitutionis constitutionis So the Nicene Council was called by Constantine the Great The Council of Constantinople was called by Theodosius the elder The Council of Ephesus by Theodosius the younger The Council of Chalcedon by Martianus and by them they had their confirmation And so Councils are to be called as our Church in the 21. Article The fourth answer he passeth here As to the fifth answer he saies these Elections do appear by authenticated testimonies and confirmation Ans But their Election may not appear free thereby That which may appear in the fact may not appear in the qualities And therefore if it were not free it were as well no Election as if the Council be known notoriously to use such proceedings we are not to acknowledge it for a lawful Council And this puzzles and disturbs our assent more Infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost in Councils is necessary to infallible Decrees this they suppose In Councils unlawful there is no infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost this they must grant and in effect here he doth otherwise how can we disacknowledge any Council or not acknowledge it for a lawful Council Now then since a Council may by such proceedings notoriously known nullifie it self how shall we be certain whether a Council doth not morally forfeit its assistance Although imdem est non apparere et non esse as to outward censures yet this is not enough for an infallible assent of the Decrees to have a charitative opinion of lawful proceedings If I be deceived in my charitative opinion no ill consequence but if I be deceived in my opinion of the Council I wrong my self in misgrounding my Faith In point of charity no man is bound to infallibility but in we point of Faith we are therefore I do not well see can ever be ascertained of the infallibility of a Council how unless we be ascertained of an impossibility in the Council to lose the infallible assistance For as we cannot believe the Church's infallibility in one point unless it be infallible in all according to Mr. Knot my adversaries late Principles so we cannot be assured of the lawfulness of any one Council by the certainty of Faith unless we can be assured of the lawfulness of all Now then if they can infallibly inform us that every Council shall have infallible assistance we will not discuss at all that which cannot be namely whether it hath forfeited the priviledges by such proceedings but though it hath not forfeited its moral being by such proceedings we yet want a proof infallible whether so or not and then if not whether it shall have infallible assistance For ought I know the Holy Ghost may be said to preside there and yet not rule as Bellarmin in his 1. B. de con cap. 18. saies that the Pope in a Council may be considered as President or as Prince as President so he is to follow the major part as Prince so he can rescinde all Now which hath the Holy Ghost following the major part or the Pope Is the Holy Ghost tied to the Council as the Heathens fastned their Gods to their Cities No they will say not to all but lawful Councils But let us then know by the Holy Ghost which Councils shall be lawful Otherwise though infallible direction will never deceive us we may be deceived in infallible direction since there is acknowledged by him a possibility of humane malice and weakness and factions and bandyings and domineering self-interest Unless they can prove an extrinsecal over-ruling providence promised by God against humane malice c. to all Councils I shall never be sure whether they are not in any one And therefore that general Text the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church will not infer infallibility in a Council unless it could infer infallibility of the lawfulness according to them and yet not so neither according to us that Text is made good to every member of the Church invisible and is that therefore infallible If it be why then is infallibility arrogated to
Luke 10.16 We say first this seems not to be rightly applyed to the businesse we are about for this was directed not to the Governors of the Church but to the seventy Disciples or Elders which were sent by Christ to preach the VVord Secondly If you doe extend it to the Representative Church yet doth it not command subjection of judgement alwayes to whatsoever is said but not to despise them as is intimated by what followes and he that despiseth you despiseth me VVe may differ without despising And Thirdly If you will from hence argue that whatsoever was determined in a Council was also determined by Christ then Honorius was by Christ determined an Heretick as you may see in the practicks of the sixth Oecumenical Synod as Nilus in his second Book And if you say that the Church cannot erre in a General Council then resolve Nilus the reason why the Pope doth not hear a General Council for if that General Council did not erre as by your argument it must not then the Pope did erre As for the other places of Holy Scripture which you produce of Christs being with his Church to the end of the world and of his promise of leading his Church into all truth VVe answer together First Though the promise be extendible to the end of the world yet it is not necessary to understand it so as that there shall alwaies be equality of assistance to the times of the Apostles which is hard to affirm since we cannot say that there is such necessity for such assistance or such dispositions in the Governours of the Church to receive such assistance Secondly The Promise is made good by a sufficient direction of the Church to their end of happinesse although not without possibility of error For every simple error doth not deprive the Church of Salvation and then it may also recover it self from errour by more perusal of the Scriptures But if it may at all erre it hath not the property of a ground of Faith nor a just capacity of an Infallible communication of all things which are to be believed You go on Now this Church whose Authority is thus warranted did precede the Scriptures Answ VVarranted as a Church but not as so not as Infallible Did precede the Scriptures which for a great part were written upon emergent occasions as you say Answ As for the writing of Scriptures and the emergent occasions you may be further referred to Doctor Field whom you made use of against me VVhatsoever the occasion was the end was to make what was written a sufficient rule of Faith and Manners And as for your objection and inference upon it VVe answer with a distinction the Scripture is considerable two wayes either in respect to the substance of Doctrine or secondarily in respect to the manner of delivery by writing in the first regard the Scripture did precede the Church for the Church was begotten by it which to them was as certain as the written to us And if you could make your Traditions of proper name equally certain you would say somewhat And as for Scripture that which is written doth binde though it doth not properly binde as written You say that the Church was called the Pillar and ground of Truth before it was written and so you say might be said of other passages We answer As that place expressed it doth not appear to us that it was so called since first we find it in termes in Saint Pauls Epistle But if so or other like were used before the answer before will serve By all which places the authority of the Church is commended to us and we are referred to the Church as a Guide in all our Doubts So you say and so we say Where is the Adversary How doth this conclude contradictorily We confesse that the Authority of the Church is commended to us in Scripture but not directly in every place you name nor in any is it so commended to us as to ground our Faith We confesse we are referred to the Ministers for Direction and to the Governours for jurisdiction yet are not the Latter Masters of our Faith unto whom we should be bound in a blind Obedience of Universal assent or practice We take their advice but we are not by them determined in our Faith We may beleeve what they say but not because they say it As it is drawn from Scripture so it draweth us If they make it probable that it is so because they say it yet it hath not the certainty of Faith without the Word of God I should be very tender of incompliance with the judgement of the whole Church but yet I must have for my warrant of Faith the Lord saith And although there be no appeal from a General Council yet have they no infallible judgement You proceed even the Scripture it self is beleeved upon the Tradition and authority of the Church Answer This was touched before in the case of Saint Austin and it is in effect answered as before by Doctor Field Indeed we take the Canonical Books by Tradition from the Church but we doe not take them to be Canonical by Tradition from the Church The authority of the Church moves me as to the Negative not to dissent but assent is settled to them as such in the way of Faith because they are such In thy Light we shall see Light as the Psalmist speaks Psalm 36.9 or by thy Light so by Scripture we see Scripture Next follows the Expostulation which may be put into this discourse Either we ground our beleef upon the Church or upon our own fancy and private Interpretation of Scripture c. Answer We deny your disjunction VVe ground our beleef neither upon the authority of the Church as you nor upon fancy neither as some have done who have been better friends to Romans then they have been to us as Doctour Whitaker told Campian upon a like imputation of Anabaptastical fancies VVe differ from you because we allow to private Christians a judgement of discretion or discerning which sure is commended in that precept Prove all things in the first Epistle to the Thessalonians 5.21 We differ from those who magnifie their private interpretations because we say they should be directed by their Ministers and ordered by the Bishops the Pastours of the Church chiefly when they are assembled in a General Council wherein is the highest power of Oyer and Terminer as we may speak of hearing and ending differences in the Church yet we cannot say that we are absolutely bound unto their Canons we having the judgement of private discretion and they not the judgement of Infallibility And if you cannot say that they are absolutely without any doubt but true without doubt we can say that we should not absolutely beleeve them Every possible defect of certainty in the Object excludes Faith the certainty whereof admits no falsity Therefore can we not presently yeeld or assent to whatsoever is by them defined
and very comfortably for the vulgar sort of less learned people who make the greatest Number of Souls in the world by those clear words of the Prophet Esay c. 35. Say to the faint-hearted Take courage and fear not behold God himself will come and save you then shall the Eyes of the blind be opened and the Ears of the deaf shall be opened and there shall be a Path and a way and it shall be called the Holy way and this shall be unto you a direct way so that fools cannot erre by it By this place it is evidently proved that the way which our Saviour at his coming would teach us should be not onely in it self but as the Prophet saith should be to us a direct way so that fools cannot erre by it Let there arise never so many Controversies in Religion let there spring up never so many Sects yet the Promise of God will stand that our Saviour at his coming should shew us A holy way which should be unto us so direct a way that fools cannot erre by it What Holy way is this I say It is the Holy Catholick Church which even by this place is proved Infallible A way so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it But even wise men might erre by it and by following it most faithfully if this way could be fallible and lead Men into Errours and those damnable To our Purpose then All Christians of whatsoever Religion they be agree in this That there must be One Judge of all Controversies and doubts which either be or can be in Religion The Reason is apparent because otherwise every Man might be left free to believe what he judged best and so we should have as many Religions as there be Private and different Judgments For if you in private without all fault may follow your own Judgment even after reading of Scripture and believe that to be true which out of Scriptures you think truest why may not I though I judge quite contrary to you believe that also to be truest which I think to be true according to the Scriptures Whence you see that Christ should have left a very Miserable Church and should have gathered together a most heart-disunited sort of People if after their reading of Scriptures he had left them no other Judge but their own private Judgment What Law-maker was ever so Inconsiderate as to leave onely a Book of Laws to his Common-wealth without any living Judge to whose Judgment All were to submit True it is that to submit exteriorly to temporal Judges is sufficient they being able and onely to judge of the Exterior Man But God who searcheth the Reines and the Heart and who looketh most upon the Mind which is the Seat of True or false belief doth chiefly exact that those of his Church be of One faith Inteâ—iourly or else they be not of One faith for faith essentially consisteth in the Interiour Judgment He hath all reason to exact they be of One faith for he could not seriously desire their Salvation without he required of them to do that which is so wholly Necessary to Salvation that without it no man is saved For without faith it is Impossible to please God Heb. 11.6 that is It is impossible to please him without true faith for he is not pleased with false faith But without we please God it is impossible to be saved therefore without true faith which consisteth in the Interiour Judgment it is Impossible to be saved And St. Paul Ephes 4.5 teacheth us that there is but one faith one baptism and one God There being but One faith and it being impossible to please God without this One faith and all things necessary to please God being under Precept and of most strict Obligation it followeth that it is a Precept and a strict Obligation to have this faith which chiefly and Essentially consisteth in the Interior Judgment This I press so hard because my Adversary hath a doctrine which I take to be exceedingly pernicious for he saith Pag. 26. Answ 5. We say They should be directed by their Ministers and ordered by Bishops the Pastors of the Church chiefly when they are assembled in a General Councel wherein is the highest power of hearing and ending differences in the Church Yet we cannot say that we are absolutely bound to their Canons we having the Judgment of private discretion and they not the Judgment of Infallibility and therefore since they have not a power not to erre we have a power to suspend our faith c. By these and many other words used to this Effect you see here this Judgment of Private discretion left free in the Interiour to hold what a Private person thinketh fit after perusal of the Scripture although a whole General Councel thinketh and most unanimously defineth the Contrary even after they have heard and most diligently weighed and pondered the same places of Scripture Good God! Is that thy Promise of a Holy way that shall be to us a direct way that fools cannot erre by it Yea is not the wisest Man in the world most likely to erre in this way by which he may in his Interior Judgment go quite Contrary to all Christendome I know indeed that All who are not Roman Catholicks must say this for if the Church in a General Councel be fallible then we cannot ground one 〈◊〉 upon that Councels definition But even by this desperate Consequence it is evident that God would give his Church aâ— Infallible assistance so to make good his Promise of leaving to them a Holy way which should be unto them a direct way so that fools cannot erre by it For any Man of mean Capacity cannot erre if he will submit his judgment to the Catholick Church whereas any Man of never so great a Judgment cannot but be highly suspected of Errour and deeply guilty of exposing himself to manifest hazard of Erring in that faith without which it is Impossible to please God when he doth not submit his Interior Judgment to the known unanimous Judgment of the whole Church St. Cyprian was a Prime Doctor of the Church and yet grounding himself upon that which he judged to be Scripture as appeareth by his first Book Ep. 6. and other places he did erre grossly about the necessity of Rebaptizing those who had been baptized by Hereticks But saith St. Austin l. 2. de Bapt. c. 4. If he had lived to see the determination of a Plenary Councel he would for his great Humility and Charity straightway have yielded and preferred the General Councel before his own Judgment Thus speaketh S. Austin of S. Cyprian though he knew his private Judgment of discretion to be far less exposed in this Case to hazard of Erring then is the private Judgment of discretion of most private Men in the world especially when they go point-blank against a whole General Council in points of higher Concernment then was this point in which S. Cyprian
which by the Trent Councel was Christened Authentique before it was born You make that to be the Scripture by which you must decide Controversies then you decide Controversies by Scripture And hath that no faults in it Is it every word Infallibly done If Infallibly done at first why did Clement the eighth vary from Sixtus quintus and why doth Isidor Clarius vary from him in thousands of places And do you any where find in Scripture that this Interpretation is made Canonical And are there none that find great fault with this Latin one If you will look into your Bellarmine in his third Book De verbo Dei 10. Chapter you may finde the contrary and although it goes under the account of an antient Edition and Hieronis yet in the Chapter before you may see he findes adversary objections and you may find by his confession that all is not his VVhat need then Sixtus Quintus have made it up And is not your Rhemish Testament very faultie Will you undertake to make it all good against Fulk And if you say that you may be certain of your Latin by the Church which you will prove to be infallible until you do prove it you doe again commit the fallacie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This should have been made irrefragably sure at first by Achillean invincible arguments and then we should have fallen down before you But again you tell us you will do it and presently fly at us for our Opinion Is there not one of yours who is prettily in his Opposition against Bishop Andrewes about the Popes temporal power compared to the pulex Qui cessim fugit fugit recessìm Et subsultibus hinc hinc citatis Vibrat cruscula And is there no more do so In some lines following of your Treatise we have nothing but petitions or repetitions and we answer no more till you prove more then this no man ever erred by following Scripture sincerely which you grant to be the infallible Word of God If they erred they erred from Scripture not by it But fools may be made wise by Scripture and wise men may erre by your Church until you make it infallible Nullibi pronior fidei lapsus quam ubi rei falsae gravis autor extitit as he said If they may teach that which is false wise men may also be deceived if they be not infallible they may teach that which is false But in the eighth line of the ninth page you oppose to me Saint Austins authoritie and of all the greatest Doctors which ever the Church had that they professed themselves unable to understand the Scriptures and that after many years study and how then c. We easily answer Saint Austin doth not say that the Scripture is absolutely and universally in all places so difficult that we may not get out from thence that which will direct us to Heaven for then he should contradict himself Doth he not say in his 4 th chapter of the 2. Book Dê Doct. Christ That there are some things indeed difficult but the obscurity is profitable to tame our pride by labour and to bring back our understanding from loathing cui facile investigata plerumque vilescum as he saith And fully again in in his 10 th Tome De verbis Apostoli Serm. the 13 th Verbi Dei altitudo c. The sublimitie of the Word of God doth exercise our study doth not deny to be understood If all were shut up there would be nothing whereby that which is obscure would be revealed Again if all were covered there would not be from whence the soul should receive nourishment and might have strength to knock at that which is shut Therefore your fallacie is à dicto secundum quid if from hence you would conclude all to be difficult yea so you would contradict Saint Peter who saith of Saint Pauls Epistles that somethings of them are hard to be understood not all Exceptio in non exceptis firmat regulam as the Rule is Yea you would contradict your self who say more then once that those things which are plain in Scripture you believe by the authority of Scripture But if from the asserting of some things difficult you would onely conclude that this cannot be the judge in Controversies as you seem to intend in your conclusion we say plainly this difficulty in some things of Scripture doth not inferre the necessity of an infallible Judge on earth your premisses do not conclude this and we allow unto you the use of Judges on earth although they be not infallible As Judges in civil Causes may and do sometimes erre yet is there use of them so also is there of Ecclesiastical Judges though not incapable of errour and again there is no peril of damnation on either side soberly held in points of Question and therefore the Scripture yet may be the way so direct that fools cannot erre in matters of necessary faith and practice And fourthly a General Council is the highest you can goe in humane Authoritie and yet this doth not binde unto Faith because it is not free from errour To which purpose believe Saint Austin if you will stand to his judgement in his third book against Maximinus Bish of the Arrians the fourteenth chapter Sed nunc nac ego Nicenum c. But now neither ought I produce the Nicene Council nor you that of Ariminum as boasting thereof neither am I held under the authority of this nor you of the other Let matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason be debated by Authorities of Scriptures not proper witnesses to any but common to both So he Where you see he prefers the authorities of Scripture before Councils which are proved not infallible even here because one was for the Arrians Here is Council against Council as there hath been Pope against Pope In this case what will you do which must you submit to Is one infallible contrary to another infallible If you must submit to both you submit to errour if to one why not to the other if that be infallible And this also will include uncertainty of all humane definitions about the Canon of Scripture which hath been spoken to before We come now to your second Reason in your eighth Number That you say comes into this Enthymene Many Controversies there are and may be yet very many more most neerly concerning the necessary means to salvation which can never be ended and undoubtedly decided by judgement and sentence of the Scriptures therefore the Scripture is not the Judge We answer to the Antecedent in those termes I deny it in both the branches if you mean by those things nearly concerning the necessary means to salvation such things as are indeed necessary to salvation otherwise you go upon a false supposition that there is a necessitie of a Judge on earth undoubtedly to decide that which is not necessarie Therefore chuse you which you will hold to if you mean those
hath sufficiently provided for the salvation of man in regard of means of Knowledge without an infallible Judge on Earth because things necessary are plainly set down in Scripture And in another place you say what is not plainly delivered in Scripture is thereby signified not to be necessary Of this your opinion no proof was given by you untill you come unto this present place Here then I will begin to discusse this Question And first I will take leave to state this Question a little more fully and distinctly 2. Your Assertion then is That all things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture In this Assertion there be 2 things which need a full and distinct declaration The first is to declare these words Necessary to salvation The second to declare those other words Plainly set down in Scripture And first concerning those words Necessary to salvation they must of necessity be understood so that all things are plainly set down in Scripture which are necessary First to the Universal Church as it is a communitie Secondly all things which are necessary to all States and Degrees that must needs be in this community Thirdly all things necessary to every single person bound to be of this community As for the first the Church being intended to be a community diffus'd through the whole World and intended for a Perpetuity must by infallible authority be plainly told in what manner she is in all times and places to be provided of lawful Pastors and that with perpetual Succession and what power these Pastors have either in respect of one another or in respect to their particular flocks and what Lawes they may make either single in regard of their flocks or assembled in regard of the whole community and how many to this effect must be assembled who must call their assembly who perside in it when it is to be accounted lawful when an unlawful assembly Whether the Precepts of this assembly oblige under pain of damnation to the keeping for Example of any Feast as Christmasse Ascension or any Fast as the Fast of Lent of Christmasse Eve and to this community it is also necessary to know what publick service may and ought to be imposed upon all and when all are bound to be present at it What Sacraments are to be administred by whom when the people are bound to use them and how often and in what manner and form they must be Administred All these things are necessary to the Chuch as a community and yet there is not one of all these things plainly set down in Scripture whence very many and very important differences be amongst Christians all undecidable by Scripture Some of you contend according to Scripture that there must be Bishops with such and such Power and Authority and that without them you can have no true Priests or Deacons and without these no true Sacraments things so necessary to the salvation of all men Others answer in the words of your own doctrine What is not plainly delivered in Scripture is thereby signified not to be necessary But it is not plainly delivered in Scripture that the Church should be governed by Bishops with such and such authoritie That Priests should be Ordained with such and such a Form that none but Priests should have Power to blesse the Bread administer the Sacraments That this Bread must be Wheat-bread or Barley or Oaten or Pease-bread Therefore all these things are signified not to be necessary The same Argument might be made of other such like Controversies which certainly be no lesse necessary then the former to be decided Though according to their Doctrine none of them should be necessary Or if necessary they should be decidable by plain Scripture and then your Doctours could not jarre about them as they doe Some of you will have no words at all necessary to the Administration of Baptisme some will have such kinde of words and others words very different from them in substance Secondly to speak now of such things as are of strict necessity to certain men of certain states and degrees in the Church Your Bishops must know how to ordain Priests and with what form of words or actions Where shall they find this plainly set down in Scripture They must also know whether they can lawfully permit women to baptize at all or baptize in necessitie onely and not out of it Whether they may permit women or lay-men to blesse the bread and distribute the Sacrament seeing that Christ said Do this all not plainly expressing how far these his words extended themselves Priests must know what kind of Ordination is necessary for their Function what commssion is necessary for their lawful Missions and whether it can be granted by Lay-men or no as also their power to make and administer Sacraments and yet none of these are plainly set down in Scripture and endlesse controversies there be about them 4. Thirdly divers of the former things not set down plainly in Scripture are necessary to be known by all men all being obliged to serve God in a true Church having a lawful succession of true Pastors truly ordain'd themselves and truly ordaining their Priests who must be known to Administer true Sacraments in their true matter and form preaching also the Word of God by lawful Mission It is necessary to the salvation of every man to believe and doe somethings and not to do some other things not plainly set down in Scripture Every one is to believe some things distinctly Now which these things be or how many Scriptures expresse not Every one is bound not to work upon the Sunday Every one is bound not to have two wives at one time not also to marry within such and such a degree of consanguinity Where be all these things plainly set down in Scripture Of divers other things we shall yet say more Yet even hence appeareth how many endlesse difficulties these words of yours Necessarie to salvation bring with them 5. Other endlesse difficulties be superadded by those other words Plainly set down in Scripture First to prove a point plainly set down in Scripture so that I infallibly know the undoubted true sence of it I must first know such a book to be the true and undoubted Word of God which as I shall shew Numb 20. cannot be known by Scripture at least by those who can truly swear that they are no more able by the reading of the book of Numbers for example to discover in it any Divine Light shewing it to be true Scripture more then they discover in the books of Judith or Toby shewing them to be true Scripture Secondly they must infallibly shew that this very Verse in which I find this point is not thrust in among other true parts of Scripture or some word changing the sense either thrust in or left out in this Verse and this they must know infallibly Thirdly after all this they must yet further know and that infallibly
which is hard to affirme since we cannot see that there is any such necessity for such assistance And by those words such assistance Your last reply sheweth that you meane assistance extended to Infallibility Sir stand to Scripture and shew out of the Text that he promiseth to be with them securing them from all error in the first age and he promiseth not so much for the second or third age Against your reasons we have our reasons bring against my illimited text another text teaching clearly that my Text ought to be limited to a smaller assistance in other ages then was here promised for the first As for the necessity of the people which was the prime reason why Christ gave this infallibility it was greater in ages remoter from Christ you ask why then be our traditions now equally infallible to those of these times I answer that as it is harder to prove now that Christ did such miracles was crucified did rise again then it was presently after these things happened yet all these things be as infallibily true now as they were then and as infallilible so I say of Traditions which for all this doe not lose a sufficient measure of infallible certainty But to go on What if there be no such necessity of such assistance for other ages what Text have you to prove that God must needs give no more then is necessary and cannot promise more and give what he promiseth I know you will say this infallibility in ages after the Scripture was not necessary because the Scriptures alone would serve to decide all controversies Sir did not the Church alone serve to decide all Controversies before the Scripture was written Yes Why then was Scripture thought necessary by you even for this end for which the Church was well provided before Again the old Scripture did it not testifie as much as was necessary that Jesus Christ was the true Messias Yes To what end then was Saint John Baptist sent to testifie this To what end a voyce sent from Heaven to testifie this To what end so many Miracles wrought to testifie this To what end did Christ and his Apostles still further testifie this Mark here how false your judgement is in thinking God will promise just what is necessary and no more Sir in Ages after the first when the Church should grow from a Grain of Mustard-seed to be a Tree of vast extent in such a vast compasse and in progresse of many Ages a world of doubts would rise which Bookes were Scripture which not Which corrupted Scripture which not Which was the undoubted sense of the uncorrupted Scripture which not Why might not Christ for any thing you know by Scripture think this a sufficient Reason to promise an assistance extended to infallibility for other Ages of the Church as well as for the first age Will an authority so assisted to testifie all this infallibly be lesse necessary then so many Authorities to Testifie that Jesus Christ was the true Messias after it was infallibly Testified by true Scripture And all these Testimonies were given to the Jewes as ill as they were disposed How then can you say of the Church of Christ that she for want of this Disposition was deprived of this Assistance in all Ages but the first VVhat you adde of Traditions hath been already Answered See also Number Twelve But what you adde of Scripture having still the same certaintie is apparently false speaking as you speake in Order to assure us For you your selfe confesse that divers Bookes of Scripture as the Apocalyps c. are now held certain which were not held so before Again many and a good many bookes of Scripture are quite lost How know you by Scripture only that no necessary point for practice or beliefe contained in those bookes only did not perish with the bookes themselves And as for the bookes we have you see how uncertain we remain about the true sense of them in highest points Then they had the Apostles themselves or the known Disciples of the Apostles to tell them the meaning of these words This is my Body is this so really or figuratively only These words Baptize all Nations do or do not include Infants To be a Priest or a Bishop was to have power to sacrifice to absolve or was it not Now times make these held for uncertainties whereas by and by you admit that by this promise of Christ the Church is secure from damnable error though not from all simple errors for then no body should be left for God to be withal you admit that which will destroy quite what you said before For before you said Heresie consisted in opposition to clear Scripture whence all those must needs be Hereticks who opposed clear Scripture Therefore all those who held these prime points in which you and we differ with us against you were Hereticks for they held these points which as you say are against clear Scripture But by your own confession Christ had no visible Church baptizing teaching all Nations c. but those who held these prime points in which we and you differ wherefore we must confesse that Christ was with these Opposers of evident Scripture or else you cannot shew with what Members of the Church he was for all these last ages preceding the Reformation Let us go on 30. What kind of assistance Christ promised may be gathered behold a fifth Text out of several words in the 14. chapter of Saint John there verse 15. he saith I will pray the Father and he shall give another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever even the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive And verse 27. The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in my Name he shall teach you all things and suggest unto you all things whatsoever I shall say unto you And chap. 16. ver 12. I have yet many things to say unto you How be it when the spirit of Truth is come he will guide you into all Truth I aske now according to these Texts How long is this spirit of Truth to abide with them in their successours For ever saith the Text. Shall he also secure those with whom he for ever abideth from all errour He will guide you into all Truth saith the Text. Give me then leave lesse to regard what you say to the contrary Where there is all Truth there is no errour If you answer there is no Fundamental errour I Reply that all Truth excludes all errour either in points Fundamental or not Fundamental And being you cannot assuredly tell me which points be Fundamental which not which destructive of salvation which not which be curable which are not you must grant me that she is to be believed in all points And fear not to believe her She will guide you into all Truth Therfore you may securely follow her in all herwaies This promise of Christ made equally to the Apostles and
the right state of the question All these things he says are necessary to a Church as a Community To follow him again we say first that we deny that all these things are absolutely necessary to a Church as a community for severall Churches have differed from one another in some of them as in Fasts and in the keeping of Easter and in forms of Prayer for as for the Liturgies they talk of they are filii populi Secondly though necessary to a Church yet not simply necessary to salvation Thirdly some of them may be necessary to a Church visible not necessary to the Church as invisible but he tampers about the change of the state of the question to make what is necessary to salvation to be necessary to a Church as visible and whatsoever is necessary to a Church as visible to be necessary to salvation which cannot be true For as for that that there is no salvation to be had out of the Church according to that of St. Cyprian in his Tract de simplicitate Prelatorum Habere non potest Deum Patrem qui Ecclesiam non habet Matrem yet this is to be understood of those that are desertors of the Church as is to be seen there by the comparation of antecedents and consequents and the whole scope of the Tract And therefore simply what is necessary to a Church visible is not necessary to salvation because without contradiction to the Father it may be possible to have salvation without the Church And therefore may I conclude that my Adversary did not well comply with his promise of stating this question a little more fully and distinctly And yet there is not one of all these things plainly set down in Scripture whence very many and very important differences be amongst Christians Ans All he says is not true For the Sacraments are plainly enough set down in Scripture for all that is therein essentiall and necessary Then secondly the Argument is not concluding these things are not plainly set down in Scripture therefore very many and very important differences amongst Christians For first the unplainesse of them in Scripture is no efficient cause thereof for they might in those things give every one their liberty in their particular Churches as St. Cyprian doth plainly shew us in his second B. first Ep. where having spoken of some who did hold those things which they did once take up he speaks notwithstanding sed salvo inter Collegas pacis et Concordiae vinculo quaedam propria quae apud se semel sunt usurpata retinere quae in re nec nos cuiquam facimus aut legem damus cum habeat in Ecclesiae administrationis voluntatis suae arbitrium liberum unusquisquae praepositus rationem actus sui Domino redituras So he Therefore may they not all practise the same thing and yet there be no morall difference if negative differences not positive contentions if some yet not many if many yet not important in point of salvation because each Bishop in his Church hath free power to establish what he thinks fit And what Generall Council hath bound the universall Church in all these particularities Yea again the unplainess of these things in Scripture is not the causa sine quae non of these differences for there are differences with the Roman Church against others even in some things which are plainly set down in Scripture as in point of justification against Images to be worshipped against half Communion and generally the differences betwixt us And indeed what is there so plain about which some have not differed And then again how is this mended by a Council Not by their Council of Trent because in their Decrees the sense is not plain Therefore let them find better provision than God hath made directly in Scripture before they find fault with Gods direction as to those things which are important unto salvation for otherwise the term is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is beside the state of the question Nextly he objects the differences amongst us about Bishops with such and such a power and authority and that without them you can have no true Priests or Deacons and without these no true Sacraments things so necessary to the salvation of all men Ans This is a question belonging rather to the Church than to salvation and therefore we need not say any more to it Yet secondly the differences amongst us are for the most part stirred upon the occasion of the Bishop of Rome and therefore the Pontificians have no cause to impute to us as a fault the disagreement of Protestants in this point because it ariseth in great part from the domination of the Bishop of Rome They thought by an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that they could never sufficiently gainsay the Roman Bishop but by cashiering the whole genus and therefore to make all sure they denied all Bishops since the Argument is good a negatione generis ad negationem speciei if no Bishop then not universal Indeed here they erred if they thought that the position of Bishops did inferr the universall for it doth not follow a positione generis ad positionem speciei determinatae and therefore they might have Bishops and not him Yea the holding of Bishops by Divine right is as like a mean to destroy the Pope's authority as any other And to this purpose was it so holty disputed in the Trent Council and some lost their favor with the Pope for being eager in the affirmative And in the promotion of Cardinals at the end of the Synod the Pope professed he would passe by those who had stood for Residence and Bishops to be jure Divino For this institution of them by Divine right made them not to depend upon the Pope which would weaken his authority And therefore as to the Controversie about Bishops whether we derive them and their authority from Scripture my Adversary might have done well to have said nothing since if it be necessary to be determined clearly then the Trent Council is to be blamed for not determining it If it be not necessary then why doth he put it in amongst necessary questions To this therefore we say no more than thus Had there not been Bishops there would not have been a Pope and therefore is this an argument that there were Bishops in the Antient Church for how otherwise could there have been a Bishop universall so also had there not been a Pope there would have been lesse contention about Bishops as appears by this that if Petrus Balma who was the last Bishop of Geneva would have turned Protestant he might have continued Bishop As for no true Sacraments without Priests and Deacons we say if he takes Priests in a proper sense we deny that there is now any such to be because there is now no reall externall sacrifice If he takes it in the Analogicall sense we have no reason to doubt of true Priests being rightly ordained And for
of Sam. 8. they have not rejected thee but me Ans Surely they had better have supposed this truth than proved it First and again we are not upon disobedience but inobedience not upon rejecting Authority which God had vested in Samuel but upon suspending assent to a truth proposed And then 2. In the time of Samuel it was a plain 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the people had Laws and Ordinances given them by divine immediate direction but it is yet to be proved whether what Churches do enjoyn do come from God immediatly to the Prelats And therefore since that case had contempt in it the discourse suits not our question And Christ to his disciples the first Prelats of the Church he that despiseth you despiseth me Ans Those Disciples were not in his sense Prelats for the Apostles were the Prelates but these whom Christ here spake to were the seventy two Disciples or Elders Therefore he mistakes in the quality of the persons Secondly this was by Christ applied to ministerial acts of preaching these other Prelats seldome do yet if they did here were a mistake in the quallity of the matter which with us is in point of jurisdiction The main Text then is St. Matt. 23.2 The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses Chair all whatsoever therefore they say unto you to keep and do He saies here Mark these most ample words all therefore whatsoever Ans we have marked them and yet cannot this Text be understood reduplicatively without exception because the Pharisees did teach errours He saies then many of them publiquely did teach errours though not by publique authority Ans So then they did teach errours and publiquely This which is affirmative is enough for us let them prove the negative for them But this is strange that they should teach and teach publiquely and not by publique authority If they did teach they did teach upon authority though not with that authority as Christ If they did teach publiquely then they had publique authority And doth not he seem to profess that authority was vested in them by a lawful succession of Moses And did my adversary thinke that they could sit in Mose's chaire and yet not have publique authority He calls them the lawfull successours of Moses But it may be they were not in the chaire when they did teach errours no How then is it said the Scribes and Pharisees set in Moses chair And how then did they teach publiquely But they were not in the chair of Moses when they did teach errours Will they say so But in their sense they were in the chair of Moses because they understand thereby authority if they doe not they are taken for then they must understand it of teaching the doctrine of Moses and then by consequent all whatsoever must be understood as symbolical thereunto And if they would understand it thus we would also subscribe this proposition that when they did teach errours they were not in the chair of Moses As namely when they did teach for doctrines the traditions of men Alas if this should be applied to the Pope in his chair how should the people be able to distinguish betwixt teaching errours publiquely which my adversary doth acknowledge and teaching them publiquely with publique authority which he denies They who formerly have told us that it is so easie a way to find by the Church to Heaven do now say that which shews it is an hard matter to find the Church teaching by publique authority One being imperfect in sight asked his servant whether there was not such a thing in the window and the Servant asked the Master whether there were such a window they tell us that there is in the Church infallibility taught by publique authority and others aske the question where is that Church and when shall we know when it teacheth so He tells us that they cannot do any thing against Scripture when they proceed by way of defining with publique authority Yea but we must have another infallibility to assure us that they do now thus define Let them infallibly define when the Church doth infallibly define since all good discourse begins with a definition And then let them tell us by what method we may come to the knowledge of this proposition that the Rulers of the Jews condemned Christ by private authority Neither is that to be swallowed Acts. 3.17 that the Church to the full hath now as much reason to be heard as the old jewish Church then For if he takes the Church here for the Church universall it were more likely indeed what he saies but how is that possible to make an address to them upon all occasions unles there were a standing Representative But if he takes the Church here for a particular Church by way of an Individuum vagum or determinately of the Roman it were indeed possible to make with more expedition address to such but then it would be shewed to be likely that any particular Church of any one denomination should have such priviledges annexed to it as the old Iewish Church had especially if we take in into the account of the old Iewish Church those extraordinary revelations of God immediately made to Moses and the Preists and the Prophets whereof Malachi was the last Indeed such an infallibility only will serve their turn but till they prove it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And as the Synagogues authority was not limited so as to be obeyed and heard only in points of trespass betwixt Brother and Brother but was to be extended to all whatsoever they should order so you cannot without depressing the authority of Christs Church who had a better covenant established upon better promises Hebr. 8.6 hinder her power from being extended to all whatsoever she shall order Ans This undâ—es all I take the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of my adversary for my major proposition then I assume what proportion the Synagogue had to the whole Iewish Church a particular Church hath to the universal Church therefore every particular Church is not limited in authority but as he saith of the Synagogue that its authority was not limited so as to be obeyed and heard c. And then what need of an universal Church Bishop Council Indeed such a power would be requisite for the Roman Church because they cannot stretch it beyond a particular Church But this spoyles all his discourse in his four first Chapters which he saies he intended as for the universal Church But what use of this when a particular may sooner and more easily decide all having all authority to command and to be obeyed in all things which she shall order Thus not only the five Patriarchates were independent of any one and had all Iurisdiction within their own divisions but other Churches nationall might be independent and independents might be Churches And since ten men with the Jew made a people and a people made a capacity of a Synagogue why
definitions of Councils to be prophetical If they be concluded by discourse then are they fallible if their conclusions be prophetical then by revelation But also these terms to propose faithfully what was formerly revealed are somewhat obscurely proposed Doth he mean it of the sense of Scripture Then where was it formerly revealed if it was clearely revealed what need of a Council to see that which others may see if not how was the sense revealed to them infallibly without a revelation If he meanes what was formerly revealed of Traditions those are beside the word of God and therefore these do not belong to interpreting of Scripture And yet also the Church hath not been so faithful in proposing these as hath been noted before Or doth he mean it of traditive interpretations as they are called but where are these to be found who gives us their number formal and material Let them then take home to their own Tents those that claim full assurance by the spirit in any point We differ from them much first because we doe not pretend any such necessity of ful assurance in every point but the Roman must otherwise what need of an infallible living Judge 2. We pretend not to any praerogative above other Churches as to the knowing the sense of Scripture they do Therefore they urge that of St. Cyprian in allusion to what St. Paul said of the Church of the Romans then for their Church now that perfidiousness cannot have accesse to them not considering besides what hath been said to it before what Nilus comments upon it that the Apostle spoke it of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the time that was past not of the future And thirdly we do use meanes towards the finding out the true sense but they must have it by an extraordinary assistance of the Spirit which needs not means if they will have it by infallible assistance in places of controversie Therefore Stapleton thinks rationally that conclusions from discourse cannot be infallble and therefore he will have them to be Prophetical and that will be by revelation This number receives again my reinforcements of my answer to that Text forenamed about the Church the pillar and ground of truth as we ordinarily read it I said it respects the office of the Church according to the rule of the School-man He saies again No it respects the Authority And here he does 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for he offers no reason why it should be taken in his way For as to that which he urgeth here that it is called the ground of truth it is not solidly objected for the term in the Greek is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that which is to keep firm and stable the prop the support and this fairly imports an act ex officio to keep up and uphold the truth He saies also it suits well with his sense to give order to Timothy to carry himself well that the Church might be thought to be infallible so as not to make men believe it improbable that God should assist infallibly such a Church Ans The strength of this Argument himself destroies He is afraid to make good life an Argument of infallibility because he saies it is a pitiful argument since Solomon the Idolaters was assisted with infallibility Well But let them first take my sense with the rule of the School-men and so compare them with his reason which is but a pitiful argument and then judge whether it be not best to take my account upon the place Secondly If badness of life be a prejudice to infallibility then since they cannot deny that some of their chief Pastours have been in life scandalous their infallibility will be scandalized and so cannot be such a way as that fools cannot erre as he urged before Thirdly If this satisfies the multitude that those who are to instruct them are of unblamable life yet this though it be enough ad faciendum populum yet this is not enough to judicious men who look for satisfaction upon solid principles nor can this make Faith unto the people of their infallibility but a better opinion thereof Fourthly As for Bishops and Deacons which he saies should be so qualified by the order of St Paul to and for the credit of such a Church he does not there find in St. Pauls Epistle any Cardinal Bishop or Cardinal Presbyter or Cardinal Deacon in whom the power of infallibility according to them should chieflly consist and therefore that Text doth not positively serve their turn Fiftly I had thought infallibility could have defended it self without the credit of a good life since the grace of gifts and the gift of grace are two things I said moreover what need of such instructions which St. Paul gives to Timothy if the Church were infallible since infallible assistance is immediate He answers here this is a strange consequence the Church is infallible in defending points in a general Council Ergo no man needeth instructions for his private good behaviour Ans But first the instructions he gives to Timothy were such as respected him in his place for the ordering of the Church in rebus fidei in matters of Faith as appears by the summe of Christian Doctrine which he gave him Great is the mystery of godliness c. Secondly By my Adversaries opinion there was no such need of instructions for a private life since it is a pitiful argument to derogate from infallibility by a bad life Thirdly Neither was Timothy I hope in their account a private man After this he hath two questions in the clouds Was it so for the first two thousand yeares before the Scripture was written Ans This is imediately subjoyned to the other before and therefore should seeme to be univocal to it And then we say two things first he supposeth that which is to be proved that the Church in that space was absolutely infallible 2. much less was it infallible in Councils as he now pretends which then were not as he now would have them Therefore from hence it should follow that if the Church be infallible it may be infallible without Councils and this is against him Another question is this Or do we perhaps teach this infallible assistance to be communicated to every one immediately Ans He speakes gravely as antient men were wont with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he notes in his Rhetoriques But why should he think we think he doe For the Church by him might be thought to be infallible though Timothy was not because according to him infallibility is in a representative And though Timothy might have been President of a Council yet was he not to be according to my Adversary personally infallible but as Head of the Council Yea he could not be Head of a Council then for this was according to my adversaries reserved for St. Peter And yet infallible assistance was communicated to every of
This manner of speech might serve us against their infallibility but no speech serves infallibility but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And all those testimonies were given to the Iewes as ill as they were disposed Ans he seemes to mistake what I said formerly about indisposition to receive infallibility For I spoke of it in order to those who should receive the gift of it for the Church and he now seems to speake of it in order to the people But 2. Suppose there were as good a disposition the possibility hereof cannot conclude the same necessity of the same assistance and some of their men are named by some of ours for denying any such disposition towards such a measure of the spirit as formerly was given That the Scripture hath still the same certainty he saies categorically is apparently false speaking as you speake in order to assure us c. Ans All his reasons are invalid For as for the first that I confess some books of Scripture were formerly not acknowledged by all which now are received this is of no weight because it is sufficient to my discourse that they have still the same certainty from the time of their general reception And 2. They have in themselves allwaies the same credibility as well as his Traditions as he hath noted before And that many and a good many books of Scripture are quite lost is first in those termes at least a supposition Whether any be lost is yet work for Tishbi specially whether many much more whether a good many but it is obvious to a Romanist that denies the Scripture to be sufficient to find it imperfect in the matter In ingenuity he should have said nothing herein lest he should be interpreted for his own ends As the Socinian who denies Christs satisfaction to prove his opinion denies Christ's Divinity that so the satisfaction should not be sufficient so the Romanist lest the Scripture should be thought to be a sufficient rule saies a good part of it is lost Thus with their honesty they have lost their modesty Secondly let them again consider how much prejudice comes to their Church which they say is the depositary of Christian Doctrine upon the loss of a good many books of Scripture Thirdly yet dato non concesso suppose so yet that which doth remain is surely as sufficient as the old Scripture without all the new Fourthly my words do not engage me in this debate because they are of a capacity to be understood of that Scripture which doth remain Fifthly If any be lost me thinks as the Sibills books the rest should bear a better price And as to his other exceptions about the sense of Scripture about the Sacrament of the Eucharist or of Baptism whether to Infants or to be a Priest or a Bishop was to have power to sacrifice or absolve or not we say first that we have said enough already And we say that we need not say any more in these points till they make good these postulates First whether the exact knowledge of these points be necessary to Salvation Secondly whether if not they can yet prove an infallible Judge in all points of controversie appointed to us by God And as to the last they are first to prove a real sacrifice in the time of the Gospel otherwise there will be no object for a special act of a Priest as such And absolution simply we deny not their absolution to be necessary to salvation and that it can make attrition to be as good as contrition are tasks for them to prove who affirm them And as for that he saies that then they had the Apostles themselves or the known Disciples of the Apostles to tell them the meaning of those words He does not well consider what he saies if they gave the sense of those places which are obscure where are these interpretations why have we not a tradition of them if not they say nothing if so they must derogate from the Church's fidelity because it hath justly communicated and handed to us traditions of other matters then are written and not the sense of those Texts which are written 2. We are yet entirely able to hold the buckler in the defence of our position that there is no such need of an infallible exposition of those Texts which contain points necessary for faith or practice The water where the lambe might wade was clear enough then and had been yet clear enough had not the great Fisher troubled the waters for better fishing If the point of the diall be not fixed they may vary the shadow but the sun keeps it regular motion So if their gnomon be loose they may make the time to go for them but the sun of righteousnes Jesus Christ the same yesterday and to day and for ever as the author to the Hebrews speaks doth in an uniforme and regular course shine in the Scripture and the doctrine of Christ by the twelve Apostles is equally set for all times only the Roman makes the variation who would have the Scripture follow the Church and not the Church the Scripture We need not then yet their Oedipus who hath a foot so great that he must wear a slipper The following words in this section are somewhat cloudy and they do need a clue to shew us their right connexion His drift seems in them to be this to make me destroy my self by two positions first that the Church is secure from damnative errour though not from all simple errour the second this Heresie consisted in opposition to clear Scripture Ans One would have thought that a bad conclusion could not lawfully be begotten of these two positions since specially the second is such as was antiently held by those who do understand distinctly points of divinity And also I had thought once that he had granted the former though now pro re naâ—a he doth think otherwise I am sure he had more reason to stand to it then to abide the perill of the negative Well but what from hence Whence all those must needs be Hereticks who opposed clear Scripture Therefore all those who hold those prime points in which you and we differ with us against you were hereticks for they held these points which you say are against clear Scripture Ans The Church is considerable in the quantity of it so it is universal or particular it is considerable in the quality invisible or visible the Church invisible is distributively secure from all damnative errour the universal visible may be secure from all damnative errour This we say still But by what engine is this drawen into his conclusion which he saies should proceed partly from this position But 2. What if we grant all that those who have been with them against us in the points of difference were Hereticks it is but like for like for they familiarly give us no other name then Hereticks And I think we shall do very few Learned and sober men any harme