Popes they are not to be accounted Legal Popes Ans. Farewel the Papacy then and yet must we be burnt for not being their Subjects 1. Then it seems that Election and Consecration made them not Popes at all before the Churches acceptance And sure that never made them such afterward 2. Then we have no Popes now most of the Church Abassines Copties Armenians Syrians Greeks Moscovites Protestants c. there are two to one are against the Papacy 3. And then Eugenius the 4th and others disowned and damned by General Councils your own Churches Representatives were no Popes Next he saith That the abuses of Election came from mingling Lay-authority with Church-Government which is out of their Sphere Now this abuse is much consonant with the Doctrine of Protestants so that those for the most part who conform their practice according to the Protestants Principles introduced this abuse into thâ—… Popes Election Ans. Reader what doth this man deserve for thus murdering the Papal cause 1. Our question was not who it was long of thâ—… they had no true lawful Popes for a long time but whether it be not true and their succession interrupted 2. And is he worthy to be accounted a man that ever read Church-History that knoweth not that before there were any Christian Emperours the Laity with the Presbyters chose the Bishop of Rome and all other Bishops so then if this was the abuse the first and ancient way was the abuse which their innovation rectified and who knoweth not what power the Emperours used from 320 till 1000 years in disposing of all the Patriarchal seats And seeing Cardinals are the newest way of Election is not the newest likest to be the abuse 3. But I desire the Reader specially to note that this man confesseth that Popes were formerly chosen according to Protestant principles and that their present way is a Reformation of the Protestant way as abusive and who then are the Innovators and the culpable Reformers even Hildebrand Greg. 7. after bloody Wars against the Emperours and the perjury that he had involved a great part of the Clergy in And yet they would perswade men that it is our Principles and Reformation that are new and theirs is the old way 4. We are not ashamed to own that the Protestant principles do assert the power of Christian Princes in matters of Religion so far as the sword is therein to interpose which Bishop Bilson of Chris. Subjection hath well opened and the power of the people in consenting to their Pastors and that we abhor their forcing Princes to be their executioners R. B. Is consecration necessary and by whom ad esse W. J. It is not absolutely necessary ad esse R. B. If Consecration be not necessary to Papacy then it is not necessary that this or that man consecrate him more than another and then it is not necessary to a Bishop and then the want of it makes no interruption in any Church any more than in yours W. J. Neither Papal nor Episcopal Iurisdiction as all the Learned know depends of Episcopal or Papal ordination nor was there ever interruption in successions in Episcopal Iurisdiction in any See for want of that alone that is necessary for consecrating others validly and not for jurisdiction over them R. B. What multiplied self-destroying answers are you driven to 1. See here Reader how short a solution you have from themselves of all their old objections about the Bishops Ordination at the Nags head-Tayern in Cheapside and the interruption of our Succession and nullity of our Priesthood now you see that jurisdiction depends not on Ordination but may be without it Their Pope and Bishops may have all their Ecclesiastical Government though they be Lay-men And may not Parish-priests have so also over the people These Papists are more kind to the Protestant-Churches that have not Episcopal Ordination than some called Protestants in this age are want of Ordination nulleth not their Government But for my part I would the Church had never known any such Jurisdiction as is neither the Magistrates by the sword nor given by Ordinaion to the Pastors called the power of the Keys At least I thought that it had been necessary to Popes and Prelates that they be Priests If some as seniors among Presbyters may be the Governours of the rest as an Abbot among Monks yet sure he must be a Presbyter or Monk himself I take the Priestly Office or Ministry to be essentiated by a Subordination to Christ in the participation of the three parts of his Office ministerially viz. to be Sub-teachers Sub-rectors and Sub-priests to guide the people in Gods worship If Ordination be not necessary to Iurisdiction a presumptuous word for Clergy-men then either such unordained Bishops may ordain or not If not they are no Bishops What is their Jurisdiction If yea then they may give that which they never had and Lay-men may ordain And may not ordained Presbyters ordain much more One would think that the reading of Voetius against Iansenius De desperata causa Papatus had driven this man to these desperate answers But he was aware that some Popes having been unordained men he had no other shift Join to this what Dr. Stillingfleet after others hath fully proved that the Orders given by Schismaticks and Hereticks are valid in the opinion of their Doctors and you will see that their talk against the English Ministry is such as the men do not believe themselves R. B. Q. 3. What notice or proof is necessary to the Subjects W. J. So much as is necessary to oblige subjects to accept of other elected Princes to be their Soveraigns R. B. 1. But what that is you would not tell us 2. But if this be so it must be so much as sufficeth to the subjects to distinguish him from Usurpers or else Kings and Usurpers must be equally obeyed and if so then 1. The greatest part of the Christian world Abassines and the rest before named have no such notice of your Pope it was many ages before the Abassines heard of him 2. And Greeks and Protestants have no such notice nay you tell no man which way he should have it when neither any one way of election nor any Consecration is necessary to the Office 3. And then what notice had men in the long Schisms which was the true Pope But note Reader that a Kingdome is so narrow a space that notice may be given to all the subjects who is their true King But the Earth is so great and so much of it unknown and so few ever sailed about it since the Creation and those few saw so few of the inhabitant that verily it is a hard matter to satisfie all the world who is the true Pope and that he is truly elected and is no Usurper And on these terms it is but little of the world that is obliged to be subject to the Pope And now Reader if this man hath
taught thee to understand what a Pope is and what makes him so and who is he thou art far more teachable than I am for he leaveth me more at a loss than he found me CHAP. IV. What mean you by the word Bishop W. J. I mean by Bishop such a Christian Pastor as hath power and jurisdiction to govern the inferior Pastors Clergy and people within his Diocess and to confirm and give holy Orders to such as are subject to him R. B. Here I desired to know of him whether he meant a power given by God or by men and if by God whether mediately or immediately But this he was not willing to answer Saying W. J. The definition abstracts from particulars and subsists without determining that question R. B. But sure equivocals make no good definitions and power or Episcopacy given by God and given by man cannot be ejusdem speciei and therefore the word as to them is equivocal Here therefore I asked Q. 1. Whether seeing they seem to make the Pope himself but a humane creature or jure humano they set not the Bishop above him if the Bishop be jure divino And if not whether they make not all their Churches humane things or however the Roman Church to be humane and so its form not necessary to Salvation if the Pope be humane W. J. Where said I that Election was jure humano that there be an election of him is jure divino by competent Electors the determination who hic nunc are competent is jus Ecclesiasticum Know you not that neither the Electors nor Consecrators of him give him Papal jurisdiction but Christ R. B. 1. You say that there is no need of Revelation to know the Church-Governours therefore they are not of Gods making unless it be jure naturali which none pretend For God no way giveth right but by natural evidence of this will or by Revelation either natural in the constitution of the Creatures or natural by Providential alterations or by Supernatural notice 2. If God have not annexed the power to any one sort of Electors choice or have given no power to any determinate persons to choose a Pope nor to any to choose the Choosers then either God giveth no power to the Pope or else he giveth Papal power to every one that shall be chosen by whomsoever The later you abhor for then any man might be Pope at his pleasure and there might be a thousand at once The former consequence is plain because if God make not every man a Pope but one man in the world the Donation of God must by God be some way applied to that person rather than to others Now if God hath neither impowred any determinate or specified persons to elect him rather than others nor any to elect Electors nor yet made the Consecrators the determining appliers there is no way by which God applieth it more to that man than to others You neither do nor can name any other way Now you confess that God hath not given the power of Election to any determinate persons but that the Electors may be sometimes people sometime Presbyters or both sometime Princes sometime Bishops sometime Cardinals All that God saith you hold is that they be competent But this determineth of none And you neither do nor can tell us to whom God hath given the power to judg antecedently of the Electors competency and to choose the choosing persons without which it will never be any mans work unless all that think themselves competent may choose Popes You dare not undertake to tell us whether it be all the Christian world or only the City of Rome Princes Prelates Presbyters people or who that God hath made choosers of the choosers So that you cannot say that God giveth the Pope his power by your way 3. But on the by I desire those that say that their Electors or Ordainers give Ministers their power to learn here this truth from you that God giveth the power by his Donative word and men do but determine of the person that shall from God receive it But yet a determination there must be and that of Gods appointment R. B. I told him that R. Smith called Bishop of Calcedon Governour of the English Papists ubi supra confesseth it to be no part of their faith that the Pope is St. Peters successor jure divino He answereth W. J. You should have done well to cite the place for I have no time to seek whole books over R. B. Note what trust is due to this sort of men I had to him in the same book cited the words in pag. 289. of my book and R. Calcedons book cap. 5. the words are To us it suffereth that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peter 's successor and this all the Fathers testifie and all the Catholick Church believeth but whether it be jure divino or humano is no point of faith Now when he came to the words where I cited them he wisely takes no notice of them And now when I refer him to the citation which was a few leaves before the weary wary man instead of an answer saith I should have done well to cite the place for he hath not time to seek whole books But what good will well-doing do to such a one as you where the better it is the worse you like it Is not this a false intimation that I did not cite them R. B. Qu. 4. I asked How shall we know who hath this Episcopal power What election or consecration is necessary to it If I know not who hath it I am never the better He answereth W. J. As you know who hath temporal power by an universal or most common consent of the people The Election is different according to different times places and other circumstances Episcopal Consecration is not absolutely necessary to true Episcopal Iurisdiction R. B. More hard things still 1. I know who is King in temporal power in our hereditary Kingdom by the constitution of the Monarchy confest by all men to be hereditary and so attested by Law and History and by most credible testimony and uncontrouled fame that CHARLES the Second is the true Heir And in Elective Kingdoms as Poland it is known by publick undenied testimony But do Bishops become such by their birthright and hereditary Title who hath asserted that If it be by Election the Electors must have just power to elect 2. But what mean you by common consent of the people No man can tell whether you join those words to know or to hath If you mean that I must know it by the peoples consent as notifying it to me it 's nothing to our question now nor is it always true The greater part of the people may mistake the Prince's right and suppose it to be in a Usurper and yet the Prince doth not lose his right by that nor must I believe them And I think in your Schisms
of the Presbyters where there are any under them and so thought your own Bishops for above 600 years even when Gregory 1st wrote his Epistles But if you had asserted that it would do more to unpope and unbishop your Church than to disprove ours But he saith that the Capitula had the power of electing Bishops and of constituting Parish-Priests in such places as wanted them Ans. 1. Suppose they had you say no particular Electors act is necessary ad esse and why theirs 2. But quo jure by what right could one Dean and Chapter of a City elect an Overseer of many hundred Parish-priests and many score or hundred thousand souls without their consent You dare not say that God gave them that power and if man did it what men were they If you say that they were men that had more power in England than the King Parliament and the consenting people you must prove it If you lay it on any foreign power Pope and Council we will deny their power here and herein What man doth man may undo 3. But indeed your meer Capitular Election is null and contrary to Gods Word and the ancient custom of the Churches By Gods Word the consent of the Flock and of the ordainers and of the ordained made a Pastor Bishop or Presbyter By the customs of the Churches in the Empire sometime the greatest neighbour-neighbour-Bishops assumed the power and sometimes Councils overtopt them all and undid what they did and sometimes the Emperours put in and out as pleased them as Solomon put out Abiathar But always the peoples election or acceptance was necessary For instance when Gregory Nazianzene had confuted the Macedonians and Arrians and encreased the Church at Constantinople though the Arrian Bishop since Valens time kept the great Church Gregory had a little one and was chosen their Bishop by the Orthodox people alone This was his first title After that Peter Bishop of Alexandria made him Bishop quantum in se or confirmed him this was his additional title After this the same Peter bribed by money without recalling his former grant made Maximus a right seeker of a Bishoprick as the world hath since gone bishop in his stead the people refused the change and retained Gregory Afterward Maximus got both Peter and the Egyptian bishops to make him bishop of Constantinople where was the Pope all this while the people still kept close to Gregory Afterward Theodosius the Emperor returning from the West puts Gregory in possession of the great Church and turneth out the Arrians and confirmeth him bishop After this Miletius of Antioch and a Council at Constantinople make Gregory bishop After this more bishops coming in to the Council got the major vote and he discerning that they were resolved to depose him departed requesting the Emperors leave as seeing the doleful divisions and contentiousness of the bishops not otherwise to be quieted entreating the Emperor to keep them in some unity and peace lest it should disgrace and ruin the newly reformed Church And the Council made Nectarius bishop the Pope in all this never minded By this one instance you may see how bishops were then made in the greater places though in lesser the election of the people and Presbyters and the ordination of three neighbour-bishops did suffice according to the ancient rule and custom But he saith That the old bishops were living and not legally deposed Ans. 1. Sub judicelis est we say they were 2. Some deserted 3. An illegal removal of the former doth not ever nullisie the title of the latter viz. when the flock consenteth to the change c. else what seat is there that hath not had their succession interrupted and corrupted but none more than Rome and Constantinople and Alexandria What poysonings fightings unjust depositions and schisms have made way for successions Is your Papacy therefore null But methinks it is a strange novelty that he makes the Capitula to have had the right of chusing not only the bishops but all the Parish-priests to say nothing of the Patrons or the Princes power which I think is as good as the Chapter who knoweth not that the bishops and the people did always chuse the Presbyters and not the Chapters But he saith that they were intruded by Seculor Power Ans. And were not your Popes so ordinarily till Hildebrand got the better of the Emperor But we had more than this R. B. Your Popes have not the consent of the most of the Christians in the world nor for ought you or any man knows of most in Europe W. J. Of what Christians such as you and your associates are We regard that no more than did the ancient holy Popes not to have bad the consent of the Nestorians Eutychians Pelagians Donatists Arrians c. R. B. Contempt of most of the body of Christ is one of the great proofs that you are all the Church And did not the Donatists say the same before you And what but the sword doth make your cause to be better than theirs How easie is it for any Sect to say We are the only Church of Christ and though most of the Christian world be against us we regard them not Reader mark the truth and câ—…ndor of these men When we tell them that the Greeks Armenians Syrians Iacobites Georgians Copties Abassines are of the same Church with us because they have the same Head and the same essential faith the Papists in their talk and writings tell us that they are more of their mind than of ours and that indeed they are not Hereticks but well-meaning-men But when we tell them then how two or three parts of the Church is against their Popes pretended universal power they number all these then with Hereticks as not to be regarded But abundance of their own Writers yea such as have lived among them at Ierusalem and other parts do vindicate the generality of these foreign Christians from the charge of Heresie 2. But doth not the world know that a man is supposed to be rightful Pope as soon as the Cardinals an upstart sort of things have chosen him before ever any of the people of Europe even Papists do consent But perhaps hee 'l say that the people consent that these shall be the chusers sure they did not so till Hildebrands days nor since any otherwise than by silence or non-resistance where they have no places to speak nor power to resist even as the Countrey-men consent to the conquering Armies that oppress them R. B. It 's few of your own people that know who is Pope much less are called to consent till after he is setled in possession W. J. What then Is not the same in all elective Princes where the extent of their Dominions is exceeding large R. B. 1. I confess when we have an Elective King of all the world I had rather Cardinals chuse him at Rome than all the world should meet to chuse him And if
and the claim of the Monarchy of all the Earth was then but in the Egg even after 600 years and came not into the open World till about the time that Mahomet came else undoubtedly your Lyturgick Commemorations and Prayers would have had some mention of the Universal Bishop as well as our Prayers mention the King and Bishops especially when it was then the Custom to record and commemorate all the Patriarchs and greatest Prelates and the Imposition would have come forth as by his Authority as the Trent symbolical Oath doth and as our Lyturgie doth by Authority of the King and Parliament and Convocation Surely this is much against you Because he knew not the Scholiastes mentioned by Usher he questioneth his Citations about the change of the Ethiopick Lyturgie I next added that Constantin's Letters of Request to the King of Persia for the Churches there mentioned by Eusebius in Vit. Const. do intimate that then the Roman Bishop Ruled not there To this he saith Why so The Pope might command and the Emperour intreat Answ. 1. This sheweth that the Emperours who used to call Councils called none out of Persia for they had no Power there 2. And withal Why is there not a Syllable in any Church-History or credible Author that we have heard of that mentioneth that ever the Pope sent one Command into Persia or that ever he corrected suspended or deposed any Bishop there or excommunicated any there though indeed that had been no sign of Governing Power seeing an equal may renounce Communion with an equal Heretical Society or Person Why is there no mention that ever any General Council did any of this No nor ever took any such exterior Churches into their care any otherwise than as Neighbours to help them nor never made any one Governing Canon for them And I pray you How would the Persian King that must be intreated by Constantine have taken it to have the Religion of his Kingdom under the Command of one of Constantine's Subjects But you have the affirmative let us see your proof that ever the Pope Governed the Persian Churches Next I noted that Even at home here the Scots and Britains obeyed not the Pope even in the days of Gregory above 600 but resisted his changes and refused Communion with his Ministers To this he replyeth That 1. This was their errour as our disobedience now is and Beda so chargeth it on them that it followeth not that they had never been under the Pope 2. That they also held that which was condemned as a Heresie at Nice yet it followeth not that they were not under that Council's Authority 3. They also refused Communion with the English Converts Answ. These words signifie what you would have us believe but let us try what more 1. Seeing you can bring no word of proof that ever they had been subject to the Pope before And 2. Seeing they were found utterly Aliens to his subjection And 3. Seeing they were found in possession of Opinions and Customs quite contrary to the Pope's 4. And seeing they pleaded Tradition for this 5. And seeing they renounced Communion with those that came to subjugate them And 6. Seeing the Pope's Ministers never pretended to any ancient possession in pleading with them as you may see in Beda 7. And seeing we read in Beda Gildas and others that they had heretofore made use of the assistance of the French Church by Germanus and Lupus as more Neighbours without any mention of subjection to Rome Let the Reader that careth what he believeth now judge whether ever the Scots and Britains were before subject â—…o the Pope 2. It is false that the Council of Nice condemned their Easter-practice as a Heresie though they united on a contrary resolution And as it is certain that that Council had no authority out of the Empire and so not over Britain when it was out of the Empire so this British Custome plainly intimateth that Britain had not received the decrees of that Council 3. That they refused the Communion of the English as half Papists it is no great wonder And yet I remember no proof of that at all in Beda but only that taking the English for Pagan-Tyrants that conquered and opprest them they refused to join with Augustine the Monki in preaching to them It 's like taking it for a hopeless attempt in them that were odious to them and open Enemies and not to be trusted Next I recite the words of their Reinerius Cont. Waidens Catal. Bibl. Pat. To. 4. p. 773. The Churches of the Aâ—…enians Ethiopians and Indians and the rest which the Apostles converted are not under the Church of Rome One would think plain words He replyeth No more are you what then our question is not of what is done de facto for the â—…present but what de jure ought to be done or hath been done The Author saith not These Nations were never under the Church of Rome but are not now Aus It 's no wonder that you desire to be the expositors of the Scriptures and all other Books for that is the only device to make them speak what you would have them If Gregory the Seventh be the Expositor of St. Paul no doubt but St. Paul shall be for the power of Popes to depose Kings and Emperours If Innocent the Third be his Expositor no doubt but by Bread 1 Cor. 11. he meaneth no Bread and by this Cup no Wine And I confess there is greater reason that you should be the infallible Expositors of Reynerius than of Christ or Paul for he was more your own and under your Government But this Reynerius was an unhappy speaker and if he were here I would ask him 1. Why do you speak in such a manner as any ordinary Reader would think that you speak de jure de facto and yet mean de facto only 2. Why speak you so as an ordinary Reader would think that you spake dâ—… statu statuto when you mean but de praeente statu inordinato 3. Why speak you of so great a sin as Rebellion against the Vice-Christ and Schism from the Universal Church without any note of reprehension 4. Why name you the old extra imperial Churches only and not those that since renounced Rome as all the Greek Church if you meant but what you charge the Greek Church with Had you not more easily fastened a charge of Rebellion on all those Eustern Churches that sometimes acknowledged some primacy of Rome than on those that the World knoweth were never under him 5. And why do you say also in general and the rest which the Apostles converted are not under the Church of Rome if there were not some special reason for it We took your meaning to be Though those in the Empire and many without it that were turned from Infidelity by the Popes Subjects be under the Church of Rome the first by the Laws of the Empire and Councils and the latter
prove what they list and this is their proof of Universal Tradition and the Papal Soveraignty of the World He concludeth â—…ou will not forget to answer these questions in your next And I think I have not forgotten it nor failed to evince his worse than forgetfulness and that the Councils then extended but to the Roman Empire and consequently the Papal and Patriarchal pretensionâ—… to no more and even of the Popes Western Diocesses the number of Bishops at those Eastern great Councils were not considerable nor yet any Agency of the Pope in and about them W. J's Fourth Chapter answered I next added for he begins his Chapter in the middle of a Section 2. That the Emperours called and enforced the Councils who had no power out of the Empire To this he saith Called they them alone had they not the Authority of the Roman Bishop joyned with them or rather presupposed to theirs prove that the Emperours called them Ans. Shall I prove it to those that have read the Histories of the Councils or to them that have not If to them that have not I cannot prove it or any such matters but by desiring them to read it If you tell a Woman that it is ten thousand years since the World was created and I tell her it is not 600 neither of us proveth to her what we say but she will believe him that she liketh best But to him that hath read or will read the History I disdain the Task Must I write Books to prove that there were such men as Constantine or Theodosius in the World I will be none of that mans Teacher that hath read the full history of the Councils of Nice First and Second of Ephes. First and Second of Constantinople First Second Third Fourth Fifth c. of Sirmium Armenium and many such as cannot see that the Emperours called them without any previous Call or Authority of the Pope some as Nice the Emperour called immediately by his own Letters without a word of the Popes interposing Authority or Call Most of the Emperours wrote to the Patriarchs and Metropolitanes to call the Bishops under them Sometimes to the Patriarch of Alexandria first if not only to call the rest sometimes to him of Constantinople and sometimes to all the five and if the Pope did at any time send a Bishop or two and a Priest thither you thence pretend that the Pope called the Council He addeth Had not the Emperours power to signifie to those extra-imperials that a Council was to be celebrated and to invite them at least Ans. Yes sure even at the Antipodes but when the History tells us that he commanded and oft threatned them if they came not and that he wrote to them and the men are named what signifieth your question W. I. Could not the Bishop of Rome or other under whose Jurisdiction they were respectively notifie to them the celebration of the Council and require their presence in it you cannot but see this Ans. I cannot but see your shame when you open it 1. Could not an Angel from Heaven have called them yes no doubt but no History saith that they were so called but tells us how in another manner 2. The word Jurisdiction signifieth so much of your Errour and interest that you are resolved at least to keep up the name and supposition and when you do but adde over all the World it maketh me remember Christs temptation All this will I give thee but it is too strong a temptation for the Pope to over-come But you would have gratified me much if you had told me what Patriarch's Jurisdiction in those times the Churches in Persia and India and the rest that were extra-imperial did belong to or where I may find any notice of the Summons that the Pope or any Patriarch sent them to any of those ancient Councils 3. I told him that the Diocesses which these Bishops were related to are described and expresly confined within the verge of the Empire vid. Blondel de primatu To this 1. He taketh it for a Fob to be referred to Bloudel Answ. Look then in your own Cosmographers and even in Aubâ—…rtus Myraeus his Notitia Episcopatuum abating his Fiction of the submission of the Abassine Emperours and such-like in him and his Confession that his Book had next to nothing of the Patriarchate of Alexandria He tells you that the Armenia major and minor were in the Province of Pontus Scythia in the Province of Thracia c. And that you may know who it was that gave these Jurisdictions he tells you how Iustinian gave his Name to a City of Bulgaria subjecting many Bishops of Dacia Dardania Mysia Pannonia c. to that Arch-Bishop with this addition sed ille ab ipsis consecretur eadem jura super eos habeat quae Papa Romanus habet super Episcopos sibi subditos Was that all the World then Novel 119. 508. He next citeth Pisanus's Nicene Canons giving the Pope Universal Power and the Bishop of Alex. and Antioch extra-imperial Power and he promiseth hereafter to justifie those Canons But in the mean time I shall as much regard his Citations out of Esop's Fables or out of Genebrard or Cochleus He saith The Council of Calcedon c. 28. giveth to the Bishop ef Constantinople Authority over the barbarous Nations near those Parts that is such as were extra-imperial such as that of Russia and Muscovia Answ. Is not this a confident Man 1. The Council saith only that the Bishops of the fore-said Diocesses naming only Pontus Asia and Thracia which are among the barbarous shall be ordained by the Throne of Const. And who knoweth not that the word Diocess signified then a part of the Empire and that many of the barbareus so called then were within the Empire such as were the Scythians Gothes or Getae or Sauromatae which Eusebius saith were Conquered by Constantine But is here any mention of Russia or Muscovy 2. And how long after this was it that all History tells us the Muscovites and Russians that were not Gothes were converted to Christianity So that here is not a Syllable in all that he hath said for Popery except the Canons of Pisanus and Turrian which they must better prove before we take them to be of any just regard It is not the word of Baptista Romanus or any late Iesuite that can suffice us I added lastly that Patriarchal Priviledges were ordinarily given by the Emperours who added and altered and sometimes set Rome highest and sometimes Constantinople His many vain words against this I will not tire the Reader with reciting Every man knoweth it that knoweth Church-History Why else in the days of Mauricius and Phocas was one set highest at one time and the other at another time How else came the Bishop of Constantinople to pretend to Universal Primacy His marvel that I translate Pontifex Pope as if never man had so done as if we had never read Bellarmine
Socrates Sozomene Theodoret Evagrius Procopius Victor Nicephorus c. and judge as you see cause especially if you will also read but the works of Tertullian Cyprian Nazianzene Basil Hilary and the true Acts of the old Councils 5. I added the equalizing the Patriarch of Constantinople which he denyeth against the express words of the Council I might adde the after prefering the Bishop of Constantinople The oft contempts and excommunications of him the altering of Church power ordinarily by the Emperors is Iustinian's making Iustiniana prima and secunda to be absolute and under no Patriarch as was Carthage and saith Pet. a Marca and many others Heraclea Pontus and Asia long The managing of many Councils without him and passing Canons as Calced 28. against him The whole Council of Ephes. 2. going against his Legates and that under a most pious and excellent Prince Theodos. 2. that used Cyril and made him President Ephes. 1. and Dioscorous Ephes. 2d and countenance this Council against the Pope When Zeno carryed on his Henoticon and Anastasius his Reconciliation how little did he or any of the Eastern Churches stick at the Popes dissent No nor Iustinian when he turned to the Heresie of the Apththartodocitae and when he drag'd Vigilius as some Historians say with a rope instances might be multiplyed § 32. My 6th proof of the novelty of the Papal Sovereignty was from the testimony of their own greatest Bishops where I cited Greg. 1st his words so plain and large against a Universal Bishop or Pastor as plainer can scarce be spoke and answered Bellarmine words against it and I shall take the impartial Reader to need no more answer to W I. than even to read the words of Gregory themselves only noting that this Iohn of Constantinople that claimed the title of Universal Bishop was a man of more than ordinary mortification and contempt of worldly things for his poverty and great fasting called Iohannes jejunus and therefore not like to do it out of any extraordinary worldliness and pride And also that Gregory was of so little power himself being then out of the Empire under other powers for the most part that he did not blame Iohn as for claiming that which he hath right to but that which no Bishop at all had right to The case is most plain § 33. My 7th proof was The Papists themselves confess that multitudes of Christians if not most by far have been the opposers of the Pope or none of his Subjects Therefore there have been visible Churches of such To this He granteth the antecedent of Christians net Univocally so called but of no others Answ. Here he intimateth that most of the professed Christians of the world were not univocally Christians by profession but equivocally only and who will easily believe such Teachers as unchristen most of the Christian World Any Sect may take that course their sence is this none are Christians indeed but only those that are subjects to the Pope therefore all the Christian World are his Subjects Just so the Donatists and some Foreign Anabaptists take it but for granted that none are Christians but those that are Baptized at Age and then the Inference will be plausible that all the Christian World is against Infant-Baptism § 34. To Aeâ—…eas Sylvius Pope Pius 2d words That small regard was had to the Church of Rome before the Nicene Council He replyeth that he meaneth not so small as not to be the Head of all other Churches else the Council of Nice had introduced a new Government Answ. His words are plain and all History of those times confirm them No one Church before the Council of Nice had any Government over others but what was for meer Concord by free consent at least before Constantine gave it them And in the Council of Nice there is not a word that intimateth that the Pope was Ruler of all the World of Christians but his power is mentioned as limited to his Precincts and the like given to Alexandria Yet Innovation in giving power to Patriarchs is no wonder in Councils How else came Constantinople and Ierusalem to be Patriarchs Was it not by Innovation § 34. Next he saith I cite Goldastus but where the Lord knows Answ. I perceive the Man is a stranger to Goldastus who hath gathered a multitude of Old Writers against the Papacy for Princes Rights and bound them in many great Volumns De Monarchia Constitut. Imperial I cited no particular words but all these great Volumns of many Authors of those times shew the opposition to Papal Claims § 35. His saying That the Schismatical Greeks were not Univocal Christians is no more regardable than the Greeks Anathematizing Papists § 36. My plain Testimony of their Reynerius Armeniorum Ecclesiae Aethiopum Induorum caeterae quas Apostoli converterunt non subsunt Ecclesiae Romanae He first cavils at my saying were not under instead of are not not seeing that I only recited the Assertion as uttered by Reynerius so long ago and must I not say that he saith then they were not under if he so long ago say They are not 2. But he would perswade the Credulous that this speaks of them but as Schismaticks as Alexandria Antioch Constantinople are not now under Rome but have been Answ But those that will be satisfied with forced abuse of words may believe any thing that a Priest will say The context confuteth you You do not pretend that India turned from you and was under you By the Churches Planted by the Apostles he plainly meaneth those without the Empire as being none of the Provinces put under the Bishop of Rome nor of old claimed by the Pope § 37. I cited Melch. Canus words Loc. l. 6. c. 7. fol. 201. Not only the Greeks but almost all or most of the rest of the Bishops of the whole World have vehemently sought to destroy the Priviledges of the Roman Church and indeed they had on their side both the Arms of Emperours and the greatest number of Churches and yet they could never prevail to abrogate the Power of the one Roman Pope To this he saith That 1. Canus speaks of different times not conjunctly 2. And he taketh them not for univocal Christians And here he finds a Root of Rebellion q. d. Most of the Countries Rebelled against the King Ergo he had no Authority over them Answ. Our Question here was only of the matter of Fact Whether de facto most of the Bishops and Churches have not been against the Papacy This Canus asserteth therefore I seek no more And when you have proved them no Christians or Rebels I shall consider your Proofs 2. Had he meant only the most of the Bishops and Churches per vices it had signified nothing to his purpose For that had been no strength but might have been some inconsiderable Town at a time 3. But that all Church-History may help us better to understand his words that tell us oft
Confirmation Vocation Missions Jurisdiction All these explained Sect. 8. He makes the Chapters in Queen Elizabeth days to have had the power of choosing all the Parish Priests Popes no Popes for want of common consent Sect. 9. who must choose a Monark of all the earth Sect. 10. Their succession interrupted Sect. 11. 12. Is it essential to a Bishop to have many Congregations parishes or presbyters By affirming this he nullifieth all the first Bishops who were Bishops before they made presbyters under them and so denyeth all succession by denying the root CHAP. 5. What they mean by TRADITION Sect. 1. He thinks the Tradition of all the world may be known by every Christian as easily as the Tradition of the Canonical Scripture Sect. 2. Tradition against Popery Sect. 4. The Protestants Abassines Armenians Greeks c. are of one Church Sect. 4. The contradictions of W. J. The unity of all other Christians as such greater than the unity of Papists as Papists Sect. 5. CHAP. 6. What they mean by a General COUNCIL His definition of a general Council is no definition Sect. 2. Councils of old not called by the Pope Sect. 3. His confusion and contradictions Sect. 4. General Councils were but of the Empire proved Sect. 5. The impossibility and utter unlawfulness of a true universal Council of the whole Christian world proved Sect. 6. How many make an universal Council Sect. 7. They make presbyters uncapable of voteing in councils and yet the highest ancient part of the Papacy viz. to preside in councils is oft deputed to presbyters Sect. 8. The council of Basil that had presbyters rejected by them for other reasons Sect 9. CHAP. 7. What they mean by SCHISM Papists acquit all from schism who separate not from the Whole visible Church of Christ Sect. 1. We separated not from the Greeks Arminians c. Sect. 3. He absurdly requireth that we should have our Mission and Jurisdiction from them if we have communion with them Sect. 4. We have the same faith with them Sect. 5. How far we separate from Rome Sect. 6. They were not our lawful pastors Sect. 7. Of hearing the pharises Sect. 8. We infer not Rebellion against Authority by our rejecting trayterous Usurpers Sect. 9. Whether the first Reformers knowingly and wilfully separated from the whole Church on earth Sect. 10. He pretendeth that the Churches unity is perfect and therefore that it is impossible there should be any schism in it but only from it when their own sect had a schisme by divers Popes for forty years Whether all that followed the wrong Pope those forty years were out of the Church and damned Sect. 11. His definition of schism agreeth best to the Papists who separate from all the Church save their own sect Sect. 12. An admonition to others Sect. 13. My Reasons unanswered by which I proved 1. That we interrupted not our Church succession when we broke off from Rome 2. That the Roman Church is changed in Essentials PART II. The PREFACE ALL was not well said or done by every Bishop or Council of old Sect. 1 2 3. Of the considerableness of the extra-Imperial Churches of old Sect. 4 5. The plea of Peters supremacy and their succession overthrown There never were twelve Patriarchal seats as the successors of the twelve Apostles No one Patriarch claimed to be an Apostles successor but Rome and Antioch and Antioch never claimed supremacy on that account Sect. 6. The true state of the controversie about the Churches perpetual visibility Sect. 7. Papists make Christians no Christians for not obeying the Pope and no Christians to be Christians if they will be his subjects Sect. 8 9. What I maintain Sect. 10. A discourse republished proving that Christs Church hath no Universal Head but himself Pope nor Council CHAP. 1. The Confutation of W. I's Reply Twelve instances confuâ—…ing the wild fundamental principle of W. J. that whatever hath been ever in the Church by Christs institution is essential to it Sect. 4. By this he unchurcheth Rome Sect. 5. He saith that every such thing is essential to the Church but not to every member of the Church but to such as have sufficient proposal confuted Sect 6. By this their Church cannot be known or the faith of a few may make others Christians Sect. 7. His assertion further confuted Sect. 8. His Logical proof shamed that every accident is separable and therefore all that Christ instituted to continue is no accident Sect. 9. Whether the belief of every institution for continuance be essential to the Church Sect. 10. They unchurch themselves Sect. 11. He acknowledgeth that all Christian Nations are not bound to believe the Popes supremacy expresly but implicitely in subjecting themselves to them that Christ hath instituted to be their lawful pastors Five notable consequents of this The true method of believing Sect. 12. The instance of the conversion of the Iberians and Indians vindicated He supposeth that every revealed truth was taught them by lay-persons Sect. 13. The instance of Peters not preaching his own supremacy Act. 2. vindicated Sect. 14. The Indians converted by the English and Dutch are taught the true faith Sect. 15. And so are the Abassines Sect. 16. His Doctrine against Christs visible reign containeth many gross errors commonly called Heresies And by making the Christian world a Monster if it have not one Papal Head he maketh the humane world a Monster because it hath not one humane King Sect. 17. CHAP. 2. Our Churches visibility confessed Theirs to be by them proved How far any Protestants grant the power of Patriarchs and the Pope as Patriarch Sect. 1. He biddeth me but prove that any Church which now denieth the Popes Soveraignty hath been always visible and he is satisfied whether that Church always denyed it or not Sect. 2. Notes hereon Whether they should exclaim against Christ as an invisible Head who make him as visible in the Eucharist to every receiver as a King is in his cloathes Sect. 3. Whether a Ministry be essential to the universal Church Sect. 4. His Argument against our Christianity re-examined and confuted by divers instances of such fallacies Sect. 5. He requireth an instance of any Church-Unity though without a humane head which endeth the controversie Sect. 6. More differences and greater amongst Papists than among all the other Churches Sect. 7. He hath no evasion but saying that these Churches are not Christians because they depend not on the Pope from which he before said that he abstracted Sect. 8. He denieth us with the Abassines Greeks Armenians c. to have been of the Church and of one Church both fully proved Sect. 9. The charge of Nestorianism and Eutichianism on many Churches examined Sect. 10. His shameful calling for the names of sects and requiring proof of the Negative that they are not such Sect. 11. CHAP. 3. More of our Unity Of the speech of Celestines Legat at Ephesus Sect. 1 2. His saying and unsaying Sect. 3. His
no man could say that the common consent of the people was always for him that carried it at last as right But if you mean as you seem that the universal or common consent of the people is the determining cause that must qualifie the person for the power Then either you mean an antecedent or a consequent consent If antecedent that is election which you say may vary If consequent it could not cause that which was caused before And it is not true that the consequent consent of the most of the people depriveth the King of his Power or proveth it to be in a Usurper 3. But seeing you here also say that Consecration is not absolutely necessary nor Election by any one sort or way but may be varied as times vary you have made either any man a Bishop that any men will chuse or you have made no man a Bishop for want of a determining application or no man can know himself or be known to be a Bishop If the question were Who is the true Husband of such a woman and you should say That her own antecedent consent or election is not necessary but without it sometimes the Kings election sometimes the Ministers sometimes the Parents may serve and Matrimonial celebration is not necessary it would follow that the woman may have a Husband against her will and before she consent and she may have many or can never know which is he for the King may chuse her one and the Priest another and the Parents a third So here 4. And if his Consecration be not necessary to Episcopacy how will you prove Ordination necessary to the Priesthood Here I noted R. B. that he resolveth the mysteries of their succession and mission into popular consent To this W. I. saith that he meaneth it only as the means of knowing it Ans. But I enquired of the causes or evidences by which a Bishop may be known from a Usurper what it is that maketh him a Bishop as I would know a man from a brute a Judg a Physician a Merchant from other men But he durst not come to this because guilt makes them conscious of their own defect But W. I. saith p. 50 It is sufficient that some generalities of Election be determined jure divino Ans. Let them be such that I may know a Bishop from a Usurper by and it is enough W. J. As that it he done by Christians by such as are capable to know who is a fit person for the Office chusing freely occording to the Laws of God the further determinations are left to the Church c. R. B. Worse still 1. If the men of York chuse a Bishop of London or several parties chuse ten Bishops here they are all chosen by Christians But that is not enough What if ten parties chuse ten Popes ten Kings ten Bishops the Christianity of the chusers will not prove them all authorized 2. Nor will the choosers capacity of knowing the capable prove it Three or four very wise men may best know who is capable to be a Judg a Bishop a Husband a Tutor a Physician c. and yet if they should choose all the Judges Bishops Husbands c. in the land the persons chosen by them would be never the more such than the unchosen 3. But being conscious that you had said nothing you put in these words according to the Laws of God But the question is How shall I know what makes a true Bishop according to the Laws of God and you skilfully tell me he must be chosen by knowing Christians according to the Laws of God He that is not satisfied by you with such talk let him be unsatisfied R. B. I here noted again that by his way none of our Churches are disabled from the plea of a continued succession for want of Episcopal Consecration Ordination or due Election 2. But that we cannot know their Bishops to be true Bishops because we cannot know that they have common consent He answereth W. J. No man argues you of the want of succession in your respective Sees because you want Episcopal Consecrations but because you want Episcopal Election Confirmation Vocation Mission Iurisdiction For your first Bishops in Queen Elizabeths time and the same is of your Ministers of Parishes were intruded by secular power the Capitula had the present power of electing the Bishops vid. caet R. B. 1. It 's well we are now quite rid of the old cavil of the Nags-head Consecration Why was not this confest sooner Did you well to abuse the people so long 2. I thought we had nothing to have proved but due Qualifications due election or consent and due Ordination or Consecration But here now comes in I know not what and how much more Confirmation Vocation Mission Iurisdiction All hard words Had I put him but to have told us the meaning of these also what work should I have made him 1. What is Confirmation without which Qualifications Election and Ordination make not a true Minister or Bishop O that we knew it 2. What is Vocation besides the three aforesaid and which is necessary ad esse 3. And what is Mission besides those three which is also so necessary 4. And what meaneth he by Iurisdiction that was wanting was it the Iurisdiction of the Collator or of the Receiver not the former for we never knew that God gave any Jurisdiction to the Clergy but the Pastoral power of guiding the Churches by the Word and Keys which is the work of their own office and the office of the Ordainer is â—…o ordain and if he have power to Ordain or Consecrate he hath that Jurisdiction which consisteth of that power If it be the Receivers Jurisdiction that he meaneth that is the same contradiction For to ordain one to the Pastoral office is to give him all the jurisdiction which is part of that office And for any other jurisdiction we wish Princes would keep it both from the ordainers and the ordained But he saith that our Bishops wanted Episcopal Election Is it come to that and yet the way of Election all this while made so indifferent What is Episcopâ—…l Election not an Election by Bishops that you affirm not Not an election to be Bishops that you deny them not It is therefore such an Election as is necessary to the being of a Bishop And what is that why all that we have been able to extort from you is That it be done by Christians capable to know fit persons choosing freely according to the word of God But what it is that is according to the Word of God and what measure of consonancy to the Word and in what points is necessary ad esse you durst never tell us And we say that our Bishops were chosen by Christians capable of knowing fit persons I confess that it is my own judgment that they should have the choice or consent of the people whom they are to oversee and
you mean that they have not the same extâ—… communion of Pastors in dependance on one as the 〈◊〉 Pastor or Governour of all the rest indeed there is none such but you For it is in that that they differ from you Reader is not here an excellent Disputer I affirm that the judgment of most of the Christian world is against the Papists in the point of an Universal Head or Governour of all Churches He saith that no one party which is for an Universal Governour and yet is against an Universal Governour is so big as their party I grant it Had they all dependance on one as an Universal Governour they were not against on Universal Governour The Abassines have one Abuna but he claimeth no Universal Government The Armenians have their Catholick Bishop but he claimeth no Universal power The Greeks have their Patriarch at Constantinople but he pretendeth not to govern all the World We are all against any Head of the whole Church on Earth but Christ and therefore are united under no other You say that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 patcht body of a thousand different professions c. Ans Reproach not the Body of Christ they are far more united than your Church as Papal Are not the seâ—…en points of 〈◊〉 mentioned by Paul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4 5 6 7 as good as yours 1. They have one â—…ead that never â—…arieth and whom all receive you have a Head rejected by most Christians and oft turn'd into two or three Heads one saying I am the Head and another I am the Head and setting the world in blood and contention to try it out which of them shall get the better as your forty years Schisms shewed 2. Therefore this Church which you reproach as patcht is but one But yours is really many and not one specifically as well as oft numerically when there were two or three Popes you had two or three Churches For it is the pars imperans that individuateth the Society And de specie you are still three Churches as holding three several heads one holdeth the Pope to be the Head another a Council and a third the Pope and Council agreeing And these Heads have oft condemned and deposed one another Councils namned Popes as Hereticks Infidels Simonists Murderers Adulterers and Popes accused Councils of schism and rebellion at least And to this day there is no certainty which were true Popes nor which were true Councils some being called by you Reprobate because they pleased not the Popes and some approved But our Head of the Church is not thus divided nor schismatical 3 Our common faith is still the same and its rule the same but yours is mutable by new additions as long Councils will make new Decrees and no man can tell when you have all and your faith is come to its full stature Nay and your Decrees which are your rule of faith are so many and obscure that you are not agreed your selves in the number or the meaning of them 4. It is a notorious truth that all these Churches which you say have a thousand professions as they all agree in one Christian profession so do less differ among themselves than your seemingly united Church doth with it self whether you respect the number or the weight of differences 1. For the Number sint libri judices all the Christian World besides hath not so many nor I think half so many Volumes of Controversies as your Writers have written against one another as far as is come to the notice of this part of the World 2. And for the Weight 1. I have shewed that you are divided in your very Fundamentals the Supremacy you confess here that your Church is not at all agreed what the Christian faith is or who is a Christian some say he that believeth the Church and that God is a rewarder others say a Christian must believe in Christ c. 2. Your Commentators differ about the sense of hundreds or thousands of Texts of Gods own word 3. Your Disputers about Grace and Free-will accuse one the other of making God the cause of Sin and of denying the Grace of God 4. Your Moralists differ about many instances of Excommunicating Kings and then killing them and of the Popes power to depose them and of perjury lying murder adultery fornication false witness yea about loving God himself whether it be necessary to love him once a year or whether attrition that is repentance from bare fear with penance may not serve turn to Salvation with abundance such And we confess that other Christians have their differences And what wonder while they are so imperfect in knowledg and all grace And now if Concord or Discord must tell us whose Tradition or Judgment is most regardable let the Impartial judg whether the moâ—…â—…egardable Tradition of the far greatest part of the Church be not against you and whether your reproaching them for discord condemn not your selves much more than them If a subject should stile himself the Kings Vicegerent and claim much of his Prerogative without his Commission and a third part of the Kingdom should unite in receiving and obeying him and have otherwise a thousand contentions among them Qu. Whether these or the rest of the Kingdom were the more and better united When I next questioned Whether the vulgar that know not Councils resolve not their faith into the belief of the Parish-priest he saith no. And saith That the Priest is but the means by whom we come to believe and tells us that else we know not whether there were any Christians 500 years ago c. Ans. But if they will be content with Ministerial teaching and Historical proof of things past we would not differ from them we do not only assert these as well as they but we say that as we have sounder teaching so we have far better Historical Tradition of our faith than that which dependeth on a pretended fanâ—…tick Infallibility or authority of their Pope and Sect even the Historical Tradition of the whole Christian World and of many of the enemies themselves CHAP. VI. What mean you by a GENERAL COUNCIL W. I. A General Council I take to be an Assembly of Bishops and other chief Prelates called convened confirmed by those who have sufficient spiritual authority to call convene and confirm it R. B. Here is nothing still but flying and hiding his cause is such that he dare not answer Note that 1. Here is no mention of what extent it must be at all whether these Prelates must be sent from all the Christian world or whence The least Provincial Council that ever was called may be a General Council by this description 2. He tells us of other chief Prelates and yet never tells what sort of things he meaneth by chief Prelates that are no Bishops And when he hath told us doubtless he will never prove nor I hope affirm that any such Prelates are of Christs institution And if the
may help to deceive the ignorant 1. Your Popes as Universal Bishops had never true Power over us 2. Nor any Bishops as their Ministers as such 3. For this treasonable Usurpation we were bound to avoid them as scandalous Invaders of Christ's Prerogative which some call Antichristian 4. Our English Bishops and other Pastors when they came to see that such an Usurper had no right to govern them forsook him but forsook no Governour 5. Those Bishops that adhered to him the People justly forsook as Usurpers under him 6. Those that forsook him they obeyed as their true Pastors And now will it follow if I be obliged to renounce a Usurping Vice-King and Traytor as having no power over me as such and that I partake not of his Treason that I must therefore forsake the King for his personal faults If the Deputy of Ireland should say I am Vice-King of all the Kings Dominions and I challenge Obedience from all the Subjects and the King forbid us to obey him as such I may obey him in Ireland till the King depose him and I must renounce him in England and yet I must not tell the King Sir why must we not then for your faults also renounce you The scandal of Treasonable Usurpation differeth from a meer immorality or miscarriage R. B. Qu. 2. Is it no Schism unless wilful W. J. No. R. B. Again you further justifie us from Schism If it be wilful it must be against knowledge But we are so far from separating wilfully from the whole Church that we abhor the thought of it as impious and damnable W. J. Abhor is as much as you please for your own particular I know not what may be pleaded for you I am certain that your first beginners did it and that knowingly and wilfully and you still maintaining what they began must by all considering Christians be judged guilty of the same Crime for still you remain separate from all these Christians from which they departed that is from all the visible Churches existent immediately before they sprung up and in their time and still continue through the whole World R. B. A naked bold and shameless assertion without one word of proof Our Reformers knew no Head of the Church but Christ and they neither renounced him nor any one Member of his Church as such but only a Trayterous Usurper and his Sect indeed while he claimed but as Patriarch some Government of them jure humano by the Will of Princes they gave him answerable obedience and in their ignorance most gave him too much and many perceived not his Usurpation But when the Empire was down that set him up or had no power here and their own Princes no longer obliged them hereto he had not so much as such a humane Authority And when they that renounced him as a Traytor to Christ protested to hold Communion with all Christs Church on Earth according to their distant Capacities and to abhor all separation from them would not a man have expected that this Dispute should have given us some proof that to forsake this false Head was to separate from all the visible Churches on Earth I proved our Union with them before Yea he presumes to say That he is certain that they did it knowingly and wilfully As if he knew all the hearts of thousands whose Faces he never saw when they that should know them better thought that they were certain that they separated from no Christians but an Usurper and his Adherents as such And this we have great reason to continue as much as Subjects have to separate from Rebels R. B. Qu. 3. It is no Schism if men make a division in the Church and not from the Church W. J. Not as we are here to understand it and as the Fathers treat it For the Church of Christ being perfectly one cannot admit of any proper Schism within it self for that would divide it into two which cannot be R. B. 1. If there be other Schisms besides separating from the whole Church why should you not here understand it unless understanding things as they are will hurt your Cause 2. What a stranger doth this Disputer make himself to the Fathers if he know not that they frequently use the word Schism in another sense than his I will not be so vain as to trouble my self or the Reader with Citations The Indexes of the Fathers and Councils will satisfie those that will but search them Was it a separation from the whole Church which Clemens Romanus the eldest of them all doth write his Epistle to the Corinthians against or rather a particular Schism between the people and some few eminent men Read it and see what credit these men deserve when they talk of the Eathers Judgments 3. But his reason is most unreasonable That the Church of Christ is so perfectly one that it cannot admit of any proper Schism within it self Can the Unity be perfect while all our uniting Graces are imperfect When every Member is imperfect in Knowledge Faith Love Holiness Obedience Iustice Patience c. how can the Union be perfect 4. Reader do but read their Councils Church-Histories Baronius Genebrard Platiâ—… Wernerus to whom I may add above one hundred and if thou dost not find them and also their polemical and practical Divines commonly mentioning Schisms in the Church of Rome it self then believe these deceivers and call me the deceiver Do they not lament their Schisms Were not the Councils of Constance Basil Pisa c. called to heal them Do they not number the Schisms that fell out in 40 or 50 years time and continued Dare any man deny it Were these then Proper Schisms or not No it 's like this man would say that none of these Writers speak properly when they call it Schism I would he would tell in the next what proper word to use But either these Schisms were within the Church or without it Reader see whither falshood will run at last If they were within the Church then W. I. doth but abuse you by his falshoods If without the Church then one half the Roman Church was Unchurched for 40 or 50 years when they followed one Pope while the other half followed another And who knoweth which of these parts was the Church It seems whoever adhered to the wrong Pope was none of the Church But saith Wernerus and other Historians sometimes the wisest were at their Wits end and knew not which was the true Pope nor is it known to this day Nay the matter is yet worse A great General Council deposed Euginius the Fourth as no Pope but an uncapable wicked Heretick and yet he kept in and became the only Head of their Church whom the rest succeed And so all that Church by this rule was unchurched Sure necessity must make you recant and say that yet both Parties in your long and odious Schisms were within the Church or else what a Wound will ye inflict
which we charge them with in Europe and yet the Papists so charge them still that they may seem to have reason for condemning them fearing that their non-subjection to the Pope will not seem enough with impartial men And as to the great Confidence that they seem to place in their succession to St. Peter and Christs words to him on this Rock I will build my Church and to thee I give the Keys c. and feed my sheep I have oft answered it more fully than is fit again to recite but these few hints I would commend to the Reader 1. That we affirm that Peter was among them as a fore-man of a Jury and no more and so Christ spake to the rest in speaking to him and the same power is given to the rest The Church is said to be built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Jesus Christ being the head Corner-stone Is not this as much as is said of St. Peter Christ gave them all the power of Holy Ghost and the remitting and retaining sins binding and loosing which is the Keys which he gave to Peter And they are all sent forth to feed Christs Sheep Now the Fathers give as high Titles oft to others as to the Pope yea and to Peter see what I have cited in my Key for Catholicks pag. 175. 176. and what Gataker hath cited out of Dionysius Tertullian Basil Ierome Augustine Theodoret Gildas Nicephorus c. Cin. 395. 396. 2. Peter never exercised any authority over any of the rest of the Apostles He called them not governed them not There is mention of Paul's reproving him Gal. 2. but none of his reproving them Schismes being among them and greatly lamented they are never directed to unite in Peter as the way to Concord nor to have recourse to him to end them Nay when the over-valuers of Peter made one party in the Schism among the Corinthians Paul seeks to take them off that way and set Peter in the same rank with himself and Apollos as Ministers only by whom they believed calling them Carnal for saying I am of Cephas never calling them to unite in him as the Head of all And had this been necessary what had this been but to betray the Churches 3. The Apostles were never properly Bishops but of a higher rank Bishops were the fixed Over-seers of particular Churches and no one had many But Apostles only planted them and governed them for their Confirmation and so passed on from one to another and had care of many such at once If any one Church might pretend superiority by vertue of succession it would be Ierusalem and next that Ephesus where it is said that Iohn the Beloved Disciple was as Bishop and which hath continued to this day 4. The Apostles as such had no Successors nor as Bishops in any distinct Seats The same Christ that called Peter called the rest and called especially the Beloved Disciple to whom on the Cross he commended his Mother when Peter had denyed him and he promised to be with them to the end of the World But no Bishops on Earth ever pretended to superiority over any other Churches as the Successors of the other eleven Apostles Where are those Seats or where ever were they If the Apostles Successors must rule the Churches as such tell us which be the other eleven and which be their Diocesses and of what extent Nay it is considerable that even in the times of domination there were but five Patriarchates ever set up and not twelve and not one of those claimed Power by vertue of succession from any Apostle Constantinople never pretended to it Alexandria claimed the honour of succession only from St. Mark who was no Apostle And Ierusalem from Iames whom Dr. Hammond laboureth to prove to have been none of the Apostles but a Kinsman of Jesus Only Antioch and Rome claimed succession from Peter and Antioch as his first Seat but they did on that single account claim Power then over other Churches And seeing the Church is built on the Foundation of Apostles and Prophets and that all the Apostles 1 Cor. 12. are mentioned equally as the noblest Foundation Members or Pillars and the People chidden sharply by Paul for making Cephas a Head What reason have we to believe that Peter only hath perpetual Successors fixed to a certain City and that no other of all the Apostles have any such What word of God will prove that Peter hath left his Power at Rome and no other Apostles no not one hath left theirs to any Place or Person on Earth yea and that he left it more to Rome than to Antioch when Antioch claimeth the first succession from him and Rome but the second and when Nilus and others have said so much to make it probable that Peter never was at Rome and when it is certain that Paul was there and those old Fathers that from some word of one of Eusebius his doubtful Authors do say that Peter was at Rome and Bishop there do also say that it was the Episcopal Seat of Paul and when it is certain that no Apostle was any-where a Bishop formaliter but only eminenter as being not fixed nor fixing their Power to any Seat And Dr. Hammond giveth very considerable conjectures That if Peter and Paul were both at Rome they had divers Churches there Paul being the Bishop of the Uncircumcision and Peter of the Circumcision only from whence we may see that the Spirit of God in his Apostles judged that there might be more Churches and Bishops in one City than one much more over a thousand Parishes though as the contrary Spirit prevaileth the contrary Interest and Opinion prevailed with it These things premised the Reader must know that the state of the Controversie between Mr. Terret alias Mr. Iohnson and me is this Finding the Church of Rome in possession of abundance of Errours and Vanities he would not only perswade us that they are of God and have ever been the same because it is so with them now but also concludeth that these Carbuncles are essential to Christianity and the Church and that we cannot prove that we are a Church and Christians unless we prove that we have had from the Apostles a continued succession of their Errours As if a man could not prove himself to be a man unless all his Ancestors from Adam had the French-pox or the Leprosie On the contrary I maintain that the Church of Christ which is his Body is essentiated by true consent to the Baptismal Covenant which is our Christening and integrated by all the additional degrees that this Covenant is expounded in the Creed Lord's Prayer and Christian Decalogue The Lord's Supper is but the same Covenant celebrated by other signs not for Essence but Confirmation That all that consent to the celebrated Baptismal Covenant heartily are Members of the invisible Church and all that profess consent in Sincerity or Hypocrisie are visible Members
on the 6th of Ianuary till after the middle of Chrysostom's time and so in the present case had it been as ancient as they pretend it was not Universal 2. But he saith that at least as Patriarch of the West by the Churches grant they were in full quiet possession of that Right or Power which we confess was lawful Ans. No such matter We make no such Confession Those Protestants who think that the superiority of Patriarchs is lawful do hold that it is by humane Laws and that if any such Laws were made by that which you call the Church that is by Councils it was by such Councils as in such matters received their Power from the Emperours without which they might not set up one City above another nor distribute Provinces and Diocesses and as was done and therefore that while the Imperial Laws enforced them they had the Law to bind Subjects to obey them but when any Kingdom was cut off from the Empire it was from under those Laws and under the Laws of their own Prince and the former decrees of Councils were no Laws to them any longer though they might by voluntary contract still associate with Forraign Lands So that such hold 1. That while Britain was under the Roman Empire they owed some respect or obedience to the Pope as Patriarch of the West as English-men do the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury 2. That before and after they owed him no more obedience than to the Bishop of Rhemes or Arles 3. That when the Saxon Kings permitted the first English Bishops voluntarily to subject themselves to the Patriarch of Rome they made themselves Debtors of all lawful obedience which they promised 4. That when the Saxon and Danish Kings Commanded their Subjects such lawful obedience to the Bishop of Rome they owed it him by the obligation of their Soveraigns Laws 5. And when those Laws ceas'd their obligation ceased and when those Laws forbad it it became unlawful And so the Roman Patriarch had no power in England when the King and Law did deny it him or cease to give it him This is the judgment of those Protestants that think such Patriarchs lawful The other that think them a sinful Usurpation think that they were never lawful yet he urgeth us with what Conscience we ceased to obey them Pag. 74. he saith Prove that any Church which now denyeth it hath been always visible and I am satisfied whether that Church always denyed it or no. Ans. This hath some moderation in it 1. There hath no Church but that of Ierusalem been always visible from the beginning of Christianity for no other was at first existent 2. And that was not visible from the beginning of the World 3. This Church of Ierusalem as it consisteth of the most Christians there now denyeth your Papal Power 4. The Churches of Alexandria Antioch and Abassia now deny it and have been always visible 5. The Church of Ephesus and many others of Greeks that now deny it have been always visible since Paul's time and Constantinople since the first planting 6. And I pray you note that the Church of Rome hath not been always visible for it did not exist till some years after that at Ierusalem Yea note that you cannot pretend that the Bishop of Rome was the Universal Bishop from the beginning for you confess Peter was first Bishop of Antioch and all that while Rome was not the Mistress Church And so if you should have the Supremacy it must be by a change from the first State Though indeed Peter himself never claimed nor exercised any such thing much less did he ever leave it to a Successor and least of all as fixed to one City any more than St. Iohn's power was to the Bishop of Ephesus And indeed Bellarmine himself dare not deny but that the Seat of the Universal Bishop may possibly be removed from Rome to some other place And then suppose it were to Avignion or to Constantinople where is St. Peter's Successor How must he be chosen or how shall his power above others be known when all the old pretensions faile Pag. 78. till then there 's nothing but vain words When I noted that They that make Christ corporally present in every Church in the Eucharist should not say that the King of the Church is absent He replyeth We dispute of a proper visible presence such as is not in the Eucharist Ans. You affirm that Christ is there corporally present under the Forms of Bread and Wine and that the Bread which we see is the Body of Christ and no Bread and yet that we see not the Body of Christ Sure we see something or nothing and if it be something and not Bread nor Christs Body what is it But suppose that it be not Christs Body which we see yet while the Bread is turned into his Body that which you do see is nearer to him than a Kings Crown or Clothing is to the King and yet if you see the King only in his Cloths his â—…ace being vailed will you say that he is not a visible King Doth clothing make Kings or the species of the Consecrated Bread make Christ to become invisible 2. Do you not bow towards him on the Altar Do you not carry him in procession about the Streets and do you not constrain all that meet you to kneel down and adore sure you do not think him to be out of sight or hearing or far off to whom you pray and whom you so honour as present As Paul said to the Iews God is not far from every one of us so that Christ who is adorably present in his Body on the Altar and corporally present in every Receivers hand and mouth surely hath not yet forsaken the Earth so far as to be uncapable of constituting a visible Kingdom without a Pope Pag. 79. I told him that When they prove 1. That Christ is so absent from his Church that there is need of a Deputy to essentiate his Kingdom and 2. that the Pope is so deputed they will have done their work He replyeth I have proved that Christ instituted St. Peter and his Successors to govern visibly his wholly Universal Church in all Ages Ans. Wonderful when was it and where Let the Reader find any such thing in your writing for I cannot no not a word Had that been done I had contradicted you no longer but if it be by an Invisible Proof that your Visible Head reigneth I cannot judge of it He next addeth I press you therefore once more to give an instance of something which hath been ever in the visible Church by Christs institution and yet is accidental to the Church Ans. 1. If I have not given you such Instances and Reasons also to prove that all that Christ instituted to continue is not essential let the Reader say that I have failed you 2. But if I had not what is it to your cause will it thence follow that
Andrew cited by me elsewhere and many a Protestant that taketh Peter to have been among the Apostles as the Fore-man of a Jury to the rest would say the same words But he intimateth that the Pope is Peter's Successor True he so supposed him as a Bishop but not as an Apostle and therefore not in equality of Power And common reasâ—…n will interpret him in the common sense of all the Councils and those times viz. as having the first place in the Imperial Councils and being the chief of the Patriarchs in the Empire but not as being the Bishop of all the World There is no probability that this one Man extended his Power further than the Empire and so that he was a Papist and yet you have not proved one in 400 years and more But he saith had not the Council of Ephesus consented they would have contradicted one imposing a Superiour and a Iudge Answ. 1. They never took him for a Judge any further than as the first Patriarch had the first Seat and Vote 2. Cyril was there the first the Legates coming after the Decrees past 3. Cyril was glad of the consent of the West it being become too much of the cause of the day Whether Nestorius or he was the wiser Speaker and should prevail 4. What 's this to the Government of all the World Shew us when that Council subjected any without the Empire to the Pope or to themselves 5. Yea in the Empire he is blind that seeth not that Councils were above Popes and when the major Vote carried it they condemned Popes as well as others as they did Honorius and many since Pag. 90. You have another Instance of his saying and unsaying When I named the Churches of Ethiopia India the outer Armenia c. that were not under the Popes jurisdiction he faith I must mean that they were never under it for if they were under him in any Age and for any time since Christ you can never make them an instance of those who were perpetually in all Ages a visible Congregation of Christians not acknowledging the Popes Supremacy Ans. And yet this same man said before that he did not put me to prove that in all Ages they did not own the Pope but that they that own him not now had been a Church any other way truly united who can answer him that saith and unsaith and changeth his Cause as the occasion tempteth him I have oft told him 1. I prove that the extra-imperial Churches never were subject to the Pope unless when any of them by conquest fell under the Empire or on such an odd accident in some singular instance which I have enumerated in my Naked Popery 2. And that no Church in the whole World owned him as the Bishop of all the World for above 400 if not above 600 years 3. And that those that owned him not as Britain at the first and owned him after and disowned him again were still Christian Churches united in Christ. But the man is loth to understand and pag. 91. saith You mean all other extra-imperial Nations or some If all I find the quite contrary for the Gothes successively Inhabitants of Spain never acknowledged themselves Subjects of the Empire who yet are now subject to the Roman Bishop and consequently were and are sometime under him Ans. I have oft and plain enough told you my meaning This is very cautelously written 1. If the Gothes in Spain were not subject to the Empire the old Inhabitants were before the Gothes conquered them and the Gothes themselves when by Theodosius's leave they dwelt in Thrace and near it And though the Gothes became their Masters they did not exterminate all the Inhabitants who had been used to some subjection to the Pope 2. Yet how little Spain then depended on the Pope is known even by the current of all the Gothick Councils the Toletane Hispalense c. where their Kings called them and were oft present and made certain parts of their Canons and were over and over magnified and Canons made for their honour and security and the due election of Successors when there was not a word of subjection to the Pope 3. And you do well in affirming no more but that Spain is now and therefore sometime under the Pope that they are now so indeed their Inquisition witnesseth nor was it ever in my thoughts to deny it But what of that 〈◊〉 He addeth And the Swedes and Danes though now they reject all obedience to him yet in the year 1500 they acknowledged him c. Ans. Very true and what of all this no doubt but long before 1500 the Pope got possession of the Western Churches we doubt not of it But he tells me that to maintain my Cause I must shew that all the extra-imperial Churches were from under the Pope Ans. My Causâ—… is not of your stating but my own I maintain 1. That the Pope was never made the Bishop of all the World 2. And that the Primacy so much mentioned in the ancient Canons was only over or in the Imperial Churches and was a humane institution and that the Councils and Emperours never pretended to give or acknowledge any more Nor did the Councils themselves and all the Patriarchs pretend to any more nor dream of Governing all the World 3. That the Churches that were from the beginning without the Empire were none of them subject to the Pope for above 400 if not 500 or 600 years 4. That the Empire of Abassia and all the Eastern and Southern extra-imperial Churches Persia India c. were never under the Pope to this day save that the Portugâ—…ls and Spaniards have lately got some Footing in part of the Indies 5. That the whole Greek Church the Armenians Georgians Syrians Egyptians c. never were under the Pope as Pope that is as the Universal Bishop of all the World but only as the primate of the Empire 6. That even in that relation he was not properly the Governour of any of the Diocesses of the other Patriarchs nor the other distinct as Diocesses Carthage Iustinianâ—… c. but the prime Patriarch that had the first Seat in Councils which put in and out Bishops at their pleasure with the Emperours will even Patriarchs and all 7. That those that were under him for some time as Britain were divers of them from under him before and after And yet that the Reader may not mis-understand the matter and this mans importunity I must repeat the exceptions laid down in my Naked Popery pag. 106. 107. and tell him what I grant him 1. Some Cities that were near to Scythia and Persiâ—… had Bishops to whom some Neighbour Scythians and Persians might be voluntary Subjects 2. Some Cities and Countries were sometime under the Roman Power and sometimes under the Enemies Persians Parthians Armenians Gothes Vandales as Africa c. when they were of the Empire their Bishops came to Councils and when they were under Heathen
or Arrian Princes they took it for their calamity and were glad of any Communion with the Imperial Churches and the Honour and countenance of their Relation and it 's like would come among them if they could 3. Some Bishops that lived in Heathen or persecuted Countries in distress were glad to seek Countenance and help from the Roman power as the Britains did from France and a Basil and the Eastern Bishops did from the West in Valens his persecution while yet they took them not for Governours And some weak Princes that lived near the Roman Empire were glad of their Friendship and afraid of their Enmity and were willing to hold a communion with them in Religion in which their Clergy should have some dependance on Rome which was the case of the Saxons in and after Gregory the first 's days 4. Some Western Countries that were converted from infidelity by some Preachers subject to the Pope became themselves subjects to that Seat as their Converters and in obedience to them that first prevailed with them which was partly the case of the Saxons and of some Countries of Germany and Sweden Denmark Poland c. 5. Lastly when the Eastern Empire and Churches forsook the Church of Rome the Pope received a great diminution in the extent of his Primacy the East that forsook him being about twice as big as those that remained under him but withal a great Intensive increase of his power for shortly after he claimed the Government of all the World as Universal Bishop not only of the Empire but the Earth And after that many that were his Subjects owned him in that relation And since then I deny not but that many Princes without the Empire have been his Subjects yea he purposely broke Germany and Italy into many small Principalities and free Cities that they might not be strong enough to resist his claim If all these Concessions will do them any good let them make their best of them I must intreat the Reader to remember hence-forward what is our difference and not to expect that I repeat this over and over again when his words invite me to it Pag. 91. he saith The Indians were not always extra-imperial for in the year 163. they subjected themselves to Antonius Pius And so the Armenians 572. being greivously persecuted for the Christian Faith by the Persians they rendered themselves Subjects to the Roman Empire And 1145 they and the Indian Christians subjected themselves to the Pope and again 1439 and so remain at the present Ans. 1. This maketh against you rather than for you If your Kingdom extended not so far as the Empire But indeed these are impertinent words As it was but a small part of the Indies that ever was under the Heathen Romans so it is not their Empire that I speak of but the Christians for before Constaâ—…ine's day the Patriarchs made no pretence to govern all within the Empire much less all without Pighius tells you That General Councils were the device of Constantine I would you had told us 1. What Indian or Armenian Bishops were at any General Council before Constantine's days and where that Council was and when 2. And what Indian or Armenian or Persian Bishops were imposed or deposed by the Pope of Rome This undertaking would have tryed your strength but you were wiser 7. And it was but the nearer Armenia that you say yielded to the Roman Emperour and I confess that the part that was under hiâ—… had Bishops at some few Councils and are not the men of whom I speak though even they were soon separated from Rome and were no longer under the Roman Papacy 3. But your Fable of the Armenians and Indians subjecting themselves to the Pope and so remaining to this day may be meet to abuse Women with that know not your Cheats by a tale of a counterfeit Patriarch but neither Merchants nor any acquainted with History that know the World will believe you any more than that the Greeks are your Subjects who at Florâ—…ce compelled by necessity made far more shew of it than ever the other did In sum I heartily wish that all the World were as much the Popes Subjects as the Armenians and Abassines are on condition that none were any more your Subjects And whereas you say pag. 92. No one of thâ—…se hath been in all Ages a visible Congregation besides that of Rome 1. A repeated contempt is answer enough to a repeated false Historical Assertion 2. Again I tell you that is no question but whether those that now are none of your Subjects were in all Ages Christians 3. You have not yet proved that there was one Papist in the World for 400 years You add For each of them at one time or other became the same Congregation to that by subjecting and conforming themselves to the Bishop of Rome Ans. As true as the Turk is subject to you If some little of the Indian were subject to a Heathen Antonius doth that prove that they and all the Christians there were subject to Constantine or to the Pope when they revolted And when was Ethiopia and Persia subject to you And why do you not blush to say that the. Armenians are now subject to you You are like to be good Deliverers of Traditions to us and Infallible Decreers and Deciders of Controversies that stick not at such notorious fictions If you had said that England Scotland Sweden Denmark are your Subjects the falshood had some more pretence because you have some among them all I next noted That these Churches profess it to be their Tradition that the Pope was never their Governour This he denyeth and calleth for proof Ans. I give you proof 1. See the words of your own Writers e. g. Godignuâ—… de rebuâ—… Abaâ—…inorum reciting the conference of the Emperours Mother and the Iesuite wherein she professeth it and the answer of the Iesuite confessing it and Godignus confirming it that they were Christians from the time of the Eunuch Act. 8. or St. Matthew and the Pope had nothing to do with them 2. When the same Countries do at once profess these two things 1. That in Religion they follow the Tradition of their Fathers from the Apostles 2. And that the Pope is none of their Governour set these two together and you must conclude that they suppose their Tradition to be against the Papacy or that they are Sots and that these two are their Principles all the Historical notice that we have of those Countreys by Travellers Merchants and Writers Papists Greeks and Protestants assure us deny it as impudently as you will I will not tire the Reader with needless History I next added that No History or Authority of the least regard is brought by your own Writers to prove these under the Pope He replyeth Yes those that say All were under him Ans. That is none but Pope Leo himself and a few of the Empire who speak of no All
contrary to St. Peter's Judgment 3. And if so then you are gone many hundred years ago Why do you contrary to St. Peter's mind pretend to the highest Ecclesiastical Authority since Rome ceased to have the highest Civil Power Should not Constantinople and Vienna and Paris be preferred before Rome You cannot make both your ends meet I added That these Councils gave not the Pope any Authority over the extra-imperial Nations He replyeth If they had it before and by Christs institution they neâ—…ded not I answer So if Constantinople had it before by Christs institution they need not have given it equal priviledges but did they that proceeded by Parity of reason believe that either of them had any such Title I added some further proof 1. Those extra-imperial Nations being not called to the Councils were not bound to stand to such decrees had they been made He replyeth somewhat that is instead of the Book which he promised before and calleth to me to remember to answer him and nothing that he hath said is more worthy of an answer viz. How came the Bishops of Persia of both the Armenia's and Gothia which were all out of the Empire to subscribe to the first Council of Nice How came Phaebamnon Bishop of the Copti to subscribe to the first Council of Ephesus How came the Circular Letter written by Eusebius Caesar Palest in the name of the Council to be directed to all Bishops and in particular to the Churches throughout all Persia and the great India Lastly if those Bishops were not called to Councils why do Theodoret Marianus Victor Eusebius Socrates all of them affirm that to the Council of Nice were called Bishops from all the Churches of Europe Africa and Asia and he citeth the places in the Margin Ans. 1. Here is but two Councils named in which such invited Bishops are pretended to have been the subscriptions to the rest for many hundred years afforded him no such pretence no not as to one Country in the World 2. To the Council of Nice there subscribed unless you will believe Eutychius Alexandrinus the Presbyterians Friend that tells you of strange numbers but 318 as full Testimony confirmeth And 3. I desire the Reader to note that these subscriptions have no certainty at all The Copies of Crab Binnius Pisanus c. disagree one from another And Crab giveth the Reader this note upon them p. 259. that the Collector must be pardoned if he erre in the assignation or conscription of Bishops or Bishopricks especially beyond Europe for â—…hough they were four old Copies that he used yet they were every one so depraved that the Collector was wearied with the foolish and manifold variations for never a one of them agreed with the rest This is our notice of the subscriptions and as I said Eutychus Aâ—…x quite differeth from all And 1. whereas he tells us here of the Bishops of Persia there is no mention of any man but one Iohannes Persidis and he is said to be Provinciae Persidis and the Romans named not extra-imperial Countries by the name of Provinces therefore there is little doubt but this was some one that verged on the Kingdom of Persia in some City which was under the Romans then and sometimes had been part of Persia. I have oft mentioned Theodoret's plain Testimony saying that James Bishop of Nisibis sometimes under the Persian was at the Nicene Council for Nisibis was then under the Roman Emperour 2. As to the Bishâ—…ps of both the Armenians the Copies disagree even of the number of those of Armenia minor they name two Bishops of Arm. major one hath four another five another six and part of the Armenia's being in the Roman Power it is most probable that these Bishops were Subjects to the Empire or if any at the Borders desired for the honour of Christianity to be at the first famous General Council it signifieth not that any had power to summon them or did so The Emperour had not and that the Pope did it none pretend that hath any modesty and they are called in the subscriptions The Provinces of Armenia 3. And as for Gothia the Books name one Man Theophyâ—…s Gothiae Metropolis which no Man well knoweth what to make of for the Nation of Gothes were not then Christians Socrates saith that it was in the days of Valens that some of them turned Christians and that was the reason that they were Arrians and that Wulphilus then translated for them the Scripture But if they had a Bishop at the Nicene Council it is evident that he was in the Empire for the Gothes then dwelt in Walachia Moldovia and Poland and were no other than the Sauromatae that Eusebius tells us Constantine had Conquered and tells us how even by helping the Masters whom the Servants by an advantage of the War had dispossest so that your Instance of Theophilus Gothiae as without the Empire is your errour Myraeus calls part of France Gothia Saith Marcellinus Comes eodem anno of Thodos 1. after the Council Const. 1. Universa gens Gothorum Athanaricho Rege defuncto Romano sese imperio dedit This was a great addition But here Pisanus helps us out and saith Hunc Eusebius Pamphylus Scytam dixit in vita Constantini Metaphrastes addeth Wulphiluâ—…'s success Eusebius indeed tells us that there were 250 Bishops that differs for the common account and he was one of them and that the Bishop of Persia was present Vit. Const. l. 3. c. 7. And that there were learned Men from other Countries Scythia being one and the Bishop of Tomys was called the Scythian Bishop And that Constantine was the Caller of the Council not the Pope And that he wrote Letters to the Bishops to summon them to appear at the Council And who will believe that he wrote his Summons to the Subjects of other Kings Or if he had What 's that to the Pope If Ioh. Persidis were not a Roman Subject that word he was present seemeth to distinguish his voluntary presence from the Summons of others But saith Euseb. 16. cap. 6. Writs of Summons were sent into every Province And the Persian and Armenian Provinces are here named with the Bishops Those that have leisure to search into the Roman History may find what Skirt of Persia and what Part of Armenia were in the Empire in those times and it 's notable that when these Bordering Parts were lost these Bishops were never more at any General Council neither at Ephesus Constantinople Nice 2. c. And Eusebius there tells us as the reason why some came came from the remotest Countries viz. some did it out of a desire to see the famous first Christian Emperour and some out of a conceit that a Universal Peace should be established And so Ioh. Persidis might come with the rest And though I find not Pisanus's words of Theophilus in Eusebius I find ibid. l. 4. c. 5. That it was no wonder that even a Scythian Bishop should be
at this and other Councils For though Rome had formerly been so far from conquering the Scythians that they paid them Tribute yet Constantine disdaining to pay them Tribute Conquered Scythia and after that Sauromatia also The Indians Blemayans Ethiopians and Persians sent honourable Embassies and Presents to Constantinople c. 7. as Neighbours but he was far from summoning their Subjects to his Council but wrote his Letter to the King of Persia only to favor them at home Judge now whether here be a word of summoning any one Bishop out of the Empire or a word of the Pope's summoning them but the contrary or any certainty that any â—…ut of the Empire were there And if any were how inconsiderable their number was â—…nd on what occasion it was like that they were voluntarily there Nay it is most probable that there was not one there by the Circumstances mentioned His second Instance is of Phebamnon at the Council of Ephesus Answ. 1. Mark what kind of proof this Man pretendeth to when he nameth 1. But one Council after Nice 2. And but one Man and no Summons much less that a Pope summoned all the Christian World 2. But what is that he meaneth The Copties are the Egyptian Christians Egypt was known to be in the Empire If he mean that the Abassines are here called the Coptie and their Bishop here he is very shameless and few Men of understanding will believe him It 's plain by the manner and place in the Subscriptions that Coptie there signifieth a City being put in the Genitive Case singular as the others are It 's not Phebammone Episcopo Coptorum but Phaebammone Copti and is put in the midst of the Imperial Bishops by Binnius But Crab hath no Subscriptions at all But was there any City of that Name Yes and amongst those Bishops that were most frequent at the Eastern Councils Ferrarius out of Strabo Plutarch Ptolomy and others saith Coptos Cana teste Rhamusio Urbs Emporium Aegypti sive Thebaidis ad Nilum que merces ex India per sâ—…um Arabicum advectae terra jumentis deferebantur a Thebis 44. mill pas in B. 8. Babylonem versus a Berenice urbâ—… ad sinum Arabicum 258. ab Alexandria vero supra 300. ubi smaragdi inveniuntur Meminit illius Staius l. 1. Theb. Coptos erisoni lugentia flumina Nili You see now with what Ignorances and cheats the unskilful are deceived by these Disputes and the Pope pretendeth to the Monarchy of the World His last proof is out of Theodoret Mar. Victor Eusebius and Secrates That to the Council of Niâ—…e were called Bishops from all the Churches of Europe Affrica and Asia Answ. Would any Man not blinded by prejudice understand this of any other than all the Bishops of Europe Africa and Asia which were in the Empire when he knoweth 1. How much of these three parts of the World were in the Empire 2. That the Emperour wrote a Letter to the Bishops to summon them 3. That he had no power out of the Empire 4. How ill it would have been taken to have summoned or called the Subjects before he had requested their Princes to send them Certainly Constantine would have written to their several Princes and not first to them 5. His Letters to the King of Persia for the Churches there shew this in which yet he never presumed so far as to desire that they might come to his Councils 6. No History mentioneth any such thing as any summons to any one extra-imperial Bishop 7. And to end all doubts the Subscriptions shew that they were not there shall we not believe your own Books and our own Eyes He citeth Theodor. l. 1. c. 7. I suppose he meaneth his Eccles. Hist. for in that he mentioneth the calling of the Council but hath not a word of what this Man doth cite him for But cap. 25. he saith that Europae totius Africae quin etiam maximae partis Asiae imperio potitus est Constantinus Yet this is too largely spoken Socrates hath no such words besides his Recitation of the words of Eusebius Eusebius indeed saith That the Bishops were called out of all these Provinces and who ever questioned it Not a Syllable in any of his cited Authors of any Call or Summons to any one Man out of the Empire These are the Foundations of the Roman Monarchy But I had almost over-past his mention of Eusebius Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine 's Circular Letter writ in the Name of the Council to be directed to all Bishops and in particular to the Churches through all Persia and the Great India Answ. 1. If it had been the Pope's Letter it would with these Men have proved his Soveraignty of the Earth But alas it was Eusebius's Letter 2. It 's strange if Eusebius were as great an Arrian as you commonly suppose him that the Council should chuse him to write the circular Letter and that you had not feigned that he did it as the Pope's Vicat 3. If writing a Letter would prove a Governing Power I would write a Letter to Rome presently that I might be the Governour of the Pope and then I would command him to lay by his Ambition and recall his rebellious and bloody Decrees and to let the Christian World have peace 4. But the man tells me not by one word where to find any such Epistle of Eusebius In Eusebius there is none such nor in Socrates nor in Theodoret nor in the common Histories of the Councils whence is it that W. I. fished it out At last I found in Pisanus his new-invented History of that Council the Title of Circularis Epistola Scripta ab Eusebio But not a word that it was written to the Churches of Persia or India nor any other by name much less without the Empire nor a word that it was written by him in the name of the Council All these are W I's forgeries But the words and Margin open all the matter Socrates and others tells us that Eusebius having staggered in the beginning of the Council and being as you commonly say an Arrian when he saw how things would go subscribed to the Council and lest his own Flocks should censure him or differ from him he wrote in his own name a Letter only to his own flock giving them the reason and sence of his subscription and indeed he seemeth therein to prevaricate and to give an Arrian sence of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saying To be of one substance with the Father signifieth no other thing than that the Son of God was in nothing like the rest of the Creatures but altogether like to the Father alone that begat him nor begotten of any other than of the Fathers substance and essence to which thus set forth right and reason required that we should condescend This prevaricating Letter to Caesarea the Author of Pisanus Story calleth a Circular Letter ignorantly and W. I. added the rest and thus these men
de Pontifice Romano and others that so speak c. is a vain digression not worthy an answer nor the rest I will here briefly recite some undeniable Reasons which I have given pag. 100 c. of my Naked Popery to prove what we have been all this while upon 1. That the Papal Power was not held to be jure divino but humano 1. It stood by the same right as did the other Patriarchs but it was jure humano 2. The Africans Aurelius Augustine c. of the Carthage Council enquired not of Gods Word but of the Nicene Canons to be resolved of the Papal Power 3. The whole Greek Church heretofore and to this day is of that Judgment for they first equalled and after preferred Constantinople which never pretended to a Divine Right but they were not so blind as to equal or prefer a humane right before a Divine 4. The fore-cited Ca. 28. of the Council of Calcedon expresly resolves it 5. Their own Bishop Smith confesseth that it is not de fide that the Pope is St. Peters Successor jure divino II. The Roman Primacy was over but one Empire besides all the Reasons fore-going I added That the Bishop of Constantinople when he stood for to be Universal Bishop yet claimed no more therefore no more was then in contest but Power in the Empire III. That Councils then were called General in respect only to the Empire I proved by ten Arguments p. 104. 105. adding five exceptions Page 114. he had put a Verse under the name of Pope Leo with a Testimony c. I shewed that there was no such and he confesseth the Errour but he supposeth a confident Friend of his put it into his Papers and now saith the Verse was Prosper's and some words to the like purpose are Leo's de Nat. Pet. Prosper he saith is somewhat ancienter than Leo and less to be excepted against Ans. 1. He was Leo's Servant even his Secretary as Vossius and Rivet have shewed and so his Words and Leo's are as one's 2. It is in a Poem where liberty of phrase is ordinarily taken 3. No wonder if Caput Mundo be found in a Poet either as it is spoken de Mundo Romano or as Caput signifieth the most excellent great and honourable And so Rome it self is oft called by Historians Caput Mundi before and since Christianity entered it And it may well be said that this was Pastoralis Honoris though not ex Pastorali Regimine Universali For one Bishop was a Caput or chief to others Pastorali Honore that was not their Governour as the chief Earl or chief Judge among us is to the inferiours 3. And the Pope did Nihil possidere armis 4. And Tenere and Regere be not all one He may be said thus Tenere in that the Religion which he professed had possession of more than the Roman Empire and he was the Chief Bishop in honour of that profession The sense seemeth to be but this As great a honour as it is to be the Bishop of the Imperial City of a Conquering Empire it is a greater to be the Prime Bishop of that Christian Religion which extendeth further than the Roman Conquests He citeth a sentence as to the same sence out of Prosper de Vocat Gent. l. 2. c. 6. viz. That the Principality of the Apostolick Priesthood hath made Rome greater through the Tribunal of Religion than through that of the Empire Which I take to be the true sence of the Poet but to be greater by Religion than Empire is no more to be Ruler of the World than if I had said so of Melchizedeck that he was greater as he was Priest of the most high God than as he was King of Salem But there is in the cited place of Prosper none of these words nor any about any such matter at all but there is somewhat like it in cap. 16. which indeed is expository Ad cujus rei effectum credimus providentia Dei Romani regni latitudinem praeparatam ut Nationes vocandae ad Unitatem Corporis Christi prius jure unius consociarentur imperii quamvis gratia Christiana non contenta sit eosdem limites habere quos Roma multosque jam populos sceptro Crucis Christi illa subdiderit quos armis suis ista non domuit Quae tamen per Apostolici sacerdotii principatum amplior facta est arce Religionis quam solio potestatis All this we acknowledge that Prosper then said about 466 years after Christ being Pope Leo's Secretary and seeing the Church in its greatest outward Glory The Unity of the Empire prepared for the greatness of the Church and those that were United in one Empire were United after in one Religion and yet the Gospel went further than the Empire and Rome it self became more honourable in being the seat of the most honourable Christian Bishop whose Religion extended further than the Empire than in being the Imperial Seat of Power The words which he citeth of Leo I made the lightest of because he was a Pope himself and pleaded his own cause more highly than any of his Predecessors and lived so late but yet the words do not serve the Papists turn for he at large sheweth that his meaning was that Rome which was domina mundi before it waâ—… Christian and yet not the Ruler of the World was prepared to be the Seat of Peter and Paul that even the outer Nations by their Neighbourhood to the Empire might be capable of the Gospel which is a certain Truth Ut hujus inenarrabilis gratiae per totum mundum diffunderetur effectus Romanum regnum divina providentia praeparavit cujus ad eos limites incrementa perducta sunt quibus cunctarum undique gentium vicina contigua esset universitas Disposito namq divinitatis operi maxime congruebat ut multa regna uno confâ—…derarentur imperio cito pervios haberet populos praedicatio generalis quos unius teneret regimen civitatis Nec mundi dominam times Romam qui in Caiphae domo expaveras sacerdotis ancillam And mentioning 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at Rome he saith ut cos in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 caput est Christus quasi geminum constituerit lumen oculorum de quorum meritis atque viâ—…tutibus que omnem loquendi superant facultatem nihil diversum nihil debemus sentire discretum quia illos electio pares labor similes finis fecit aequales And in the next Sermon expounding super hanc petram thus saith super hanc inquit 〈◊〉 â—…ternum extruam templum ecclesiae meae caelo inserenda sublimitas in hujus fidei firmitate consurget Hanc confessionem portae Inferi non tenebunt c. And of Tibi dabo claves Transivit quidâ—…m in Apostolos alios vis illius potestatis sed non frustra uni commendatur quod omnibus intimetur Petro enim singulariter hoc creditur quia cunctis ecclesiae rectoribus Petri forma proponitur Manet
ergo Petri privilegium ubicunque ex ipsius fertur aequitate judicium nec nimia est vel severitas vel remissio So Petrus Chrysologus expoundeth super hanc petram Serm. 74. p. 69. 1. and many others But it is the way of these Men to take some Sentence that soundeth as they think for sufficient Proof of their Foundations Leo in his Epistles to Anatolius and to the Emperour Martian against him Ep. 54. p. 131. layeth all the Priviledges of the Churches on the Council of Nice Privilegia ecclesiarum sanctorum Patrum Canonibus instituta Venerabilis Nicenae Synodi fixa decretis nulla novitate mutari c. He saith that no later Council though of greater number can alter any thing done in the Council of Nice and so none of their Rules for the Churche's Regiment And in many other Epistles to Pulcheria c. he over and over accuseth him as breaking the Statutes of the Fathers and Councils but not the Institution of Christ or his Apostles Next he citeth Leo's Epist. 82. to Anastas But it is in the 84th and he that will but read it will easily see that it was but in the Empire that Lâ—…o claimed the final Decision and Appeals And once more I here appeal to any impartial Man that ever read over all the true Epistles and Decretals of the Popes themselves and findeth that none of them for 400 if not 500 years were ever sent to any extraimperial Church as any way exercising Authority over them yea and till after 600 when Gregory sent into England they wrote but to their own Missionaries or but by way of Counsel as any Man may do whether he can believe they then arrogated the Government of all the World In the rest of this Chapter there is nothing worth the answering but that he saith to prove Ethiopia under the Patriarchs of Alexandria That 1. Some Learned Men think Ethiopia is included in Egypt 2. That Dr. Heylin and Rosse did regard Pisanus his Nicene Canons and their Authority is more than mine Answ. 1. You are a Learned Man who take Thracia to have been without the Empire and must I therefore be of the same mind If your Learned Men cannot distinguish between Egypt an imperial Province and the vast and distant Kingdoms of Ethiopia What 's that to me Is it enough to confute any evident truth that there was found some Man that was against it 2. Nor is the Name of Heylin and Rosse of any more Authority to prove the Antiquity of a late-produced Script against all the Testimony of the Fathers and Councils near those times than your own naked Assertion would have been Is not this a pitiful Proof that Pisanus's Canons are authentick and ancient because Dr. Heylin and Rosse regard them If you had any better Proof Why did you not produce it An Answer to W. J's fifth Chapter The thing that I asserted is 1. That the Pope had never any Governing Power over the whole Earth 2. Nor anciently over any out of the Empire 3. Nor a proper Government of the other Patriarchs or exempt Provinces within the Empire But that he was principally for the honour of the Imperial Seat and next as to honour the Memorial of St. Peter voluntarily by Councils and Emperours made the prime Bishop of the Empire Alexandria first and Constantinople after the second Antioch the third c. And that not the Pope but the Emperours and General Councils were the chief Rulers of the Imperial Churches But in these Councils the Bishop of Rome had the first Seat and Alexandria the second And that this Bishop of Rome had but one Voice ordinarily in Councils but sometimes he claimed a Negative Voice and sometimes Councils have condemned excommunicated and deposed him And in his absence the Bishop of Alexandria had the same Power as he when present had Now W. I. here citeth some Testimonies truly and some falsly to prove that which I deny not that sometimes the last Appeals were made to him and other Priviledges allowed him which belonged to the first Bishop of the Empire I think it but an injury to the Reader to examine them any further If he will read the Histories and Fathers themselves he needs not my Testimony If he will not my Testimony is no notifying Evidence to him And upon the perusal of the rest I find nothing in this Chapter needing or worthy of any further Answer And I am sensible that fruitless altercation will be ungrateful to wise and sober Men. An Answer to W. J's Sixth CHAPTER § 1. I Noted that under the Heathen Emperours Church-Associations were but by Voluntary Consent and yet then they called in none without the Empire To this he Replyeth 1. Denying such Consent 2. Saying They could not call them that were Extraimperial to sit with them Answ. 1. I would he had told us how Provinces were distributed while Emperours were Heathens if not by Consent Doth he think that the Pope did it all himself Did he make Alexandria Antioch Patriarchates and divide to all other Bishops their Seats and Provinces If he say this he will but make us the more wary of such a Disputant for he will never prove it 2. And if by Consent they could not call any without the Empire then none were Called which is the Truth § 2. But he cometh to his grand Proof That the four first Councils were Univerâ—… as to all the World 1. Because they are called General and Oecumenical Councils by themselves by the Canons by Histories by the whole Christian World by the Fathers by Protestants by our Statute-Books by our thirty nine Articles and by Orthodox Writers To all which I Answer Even in Scotland the Presbyterians have their General Assembly which yet is somewhat less than all the World And as for their Phrase of Totius Orbis So it is said in the Gospel that all the World was Taxed by Augustus He is very easily perswaded that after all the Evidence which I have given and in particular after the sight of all the subscribed Names at Councils which were within the Empire can yet believe that they were the Bishops of all the World because he readeth the name Oecumenical and Totius Orbis § 3. But he argueth from the Reason of the thing 1. Councils were gathered for the Common Peace of Christians Answ. The Peace of the Christian World is promoted by the Peace of the Empire 1. As it was the most considerable part then of the whole Christian World 2. As the welfare of every part conduceth to the welfare of the World 3. As it is Exemplary and Counselling to all others but not by Authoritative Command and Constraint § 4. Secondly He saith Else any obstinate Hereticks might but have removed to the Extra-imperial Churches and been free Answ. 1. He might no doubt have been free from force unless his own Prince were of the same mind 2. But he could not have
sound any respect to the Bishop of Rome any reverence of his place and judgment any counsel that he giveth to any any help that any sought of him as signifying his Government of all the Empire 6. That he feigneth all such interest or power in the Empire to be a Monarchical Government of all the world 7. That he to these ends leadeth men into verbal quarrels about the sense of many passages in history and fathers where he knoweth that the vulgar cannot judge nor any that are not well versed in all those books which most preachers themselves have not sufficient leisure for 8. That contrary to the notorious evidence of histories he maintaineth that no Councils were called without the authority of the Roman Bishop when the Emperors ordinarily called them by sending to each Patriarch to summon those of his circuit to such a place and the Bishops of Alexandria and Constant. had more hand in calling them till 700 or 800 if not much longer than the Pope had 9. If the Reader can trie all our passages here about by the books themselves not taking scraps but the main drift of Church-history and the particular authors I will desire no more of him than to read them himself if not neither to believe the report of W. I. or me as certain to him For how can he know which of us reports an author truly but to keep to such evidences of Reason and Scripture as he is capable of judging of § 2. When I said that the Emperor Theódòsius 2d gave sufficient testimony and those that adhere to Dioscorus how little in those days they believed the Popes infallibility or sovereignty when they excommunicated him and the Emperor and â—…ivil Officers bare Dioscorus He doth over and over tell me how I defend Rebels against a Sovereign and I have laid a Principle emboldening all Rebels to deposâ—… Sovereigns or prove that they have no authority over them Answ. Alas poor Kings and Emperors who are judged such subjects to the Priests that he that pleadeth for your power pleadeth for Rebels against your Sovereign Pope And that are by these even judged so sheepish as that by the name of Rebellion charged on your defenders they look to draw your selves to take them for Rebels who would make you know that you are Princes and not the subjects of forreigners or your subjects but yet the instance which I give sheweth the sense of Theodosius and others be it right or wrong § 3. Had it not been that the Printer by three or four Errata's as Sixtus fifth c. made him some work he had had little to say but what confutes it self § 4. But cap. 4. p. 289 he would be thought to speak to the purpose viz. That out of the Empire the Pope restored Bishops and did he depose any He was wiser than to name any but saith Such were all those Bishops who about the year 400 in Spain and France and an 475 in England and 595 in Germany 499 and other Western and Northern Kingdoms who were taken from under the command of the Roman Emperor or were never under it and were restored by the Bishop of Romes authority c. Answ. Meer deceit he can name none deposed or restored by the Pope but 1. Such as were in the Empire 2. Or such as were in the same national Church with Rome when the Barbarians claimed power both over Rome and the neighbour Countreys as Odoacer and others claimed power to have the choice of a Pope themselves or that none should be Pope but by their consent 3. Or when the King of any revolted or conquered nation subjected himself or his subjects voluntarily to the Pope as they have done since the declining of the Empire Or 4. when they that had been used in the Empire to the canonical way in Councils and under Patriarchs desired when they were conquered to do as they had done and were permitted As the Patriarch of Constant. that layeth no claim as jure divino yet under the Turk claimeth still superiority over all those Churches that were formerly by Councils put under him what Princes soever they be under supposing that those Councils authority is still valid though the Empire be dissolved 5. Or when the Pope was but a meer Intercessor or Arbitrator and no Rector § 5. But p. 410 c. he cometh on again with repetitions and additions to prove that Forreigners were at the four first General Councils Answ. If he prove that all the Churches in the world made up those Councils he put hard to prove that indeed they were universal But I have not yet found that he hath proved it of any one unless in the fore-excepted cases I. His Theophilus Gothiae metropolis I spake of before He now saith Bishop of Gothia in the farthest parts of the North beyond Germany Answ. But where 's his Proof The Country that he talks of was not long after converted to Christianity He knew not that it was the Getae that were then called Gothes saith Ferrarius Polouci teste Math. Michovicus Steph. Paul Diac populus Sarmatiae Europeae boreale latus maris Euxini incolentes prius Getae teste D. Isidor li. 9. De quibus Auson Horum metropolis et urbs GOTHIA archiepis antequam à Turcis occuparetur Auson ep 3. Hinc possem victos inde referre Gothos Regio Gothea nunc Osia inter Tyram et Borysthenem This was then in the Empire § 6. II. His second is Dominus Domnus Bosphori a City of Thracia Cimmeria or India as Cosmographus declares the Bishop of Botra a City of this name is found in Arabia and Sala a Town also of great Phrygia the higher Pannonia and Armenia is so called Answ. This pitiful stuffe may amase the ignorant Domnus Bospori is the last subscriber Bosphorus is said in the subscriptions to be Provinciae Bostrensis in a Roman Province There be divers straites of the sea called Bosphori one between Constant and Calcedon another the sretum Cimmerium vel os Moeotidis called of the Italians stretto de Cassa and the straits between Taurica Chersonesus in Europe and Sarmatia in Asia There is the City Bosphorus an Archiepiscopal seat vulgo Vospero Abest inquit Ferrarius à Thracio 500 mil. pass ab ostio Tanais 375 in austrum This was in the Empire and he himself nameth it first a City of Thracia and yet the Learned Cosmographer proveth that it was out of the Empire are not these meet men to prove all the Earth to be in the Popes jurisdiction § 7. III. His 3d. is Ioh. Persi lis of whom enough already he is said to be of the Province of Persia which therefore was some skirt of Persia then in the Empire and a Town in Syria was called Persa what proof then is here of any one man out of the Empire So much for Nice § 8. IV. He next tells us of three Bishops of Scythia at the first Council at Constant.
Religion which they hold to be that which by Tradition the Church received for the Apostles and therefore most being against the Papacy think Tradition is against it And the Tradition of two parts of the Christian world especially those next Ierusalem is more regardable as such than the Tradition of the third part only that is contrary unless better Historical proof mak a difference § 29. 4. My 4th proof was Many Churches without the virge of the Roman Empire never subjected themselves to Rome and many not of many hundred years after Christ Ergo there were visible Churches from the beginning to this day that were not for the Roman Vicarship To this he saith If I can prove as I have proved that any one Extra-imperial Church was subject to the Bishop of Rome and you cannot shew some evident reason why that was subject rather than all the rest I convince by that the subjection of all Now it is evident that the Churches of Spain France Britain of France and Germany when divided from the Roman Empire were as subject as the rest c. Answ. 1. Yes and much more Rome it 〈◊〉 was then under Theodorick and other Arrian Gothes and those Rulers gave them their liberty herein and being Hereticks no wonder if the Bishops chose to continue their former correspondency and Church-order to strengthen themselves Here is then a special reason why Rome it self and the rest of the Churches should so voluntarily continue 1. Their old custom when under the Empire had so setled them 2 Their strength and safety invited them 3. It was their voluntary act 2. But what 's this to those many hundred years before when the Empire was not so dismembered Though even till after Gregories daies an 6â—… the Britains obeyed you not yet I told you that when Pagans or Arrians conquered any parts of the Empire the Christians would still be as much under the old Christian power as they could which made the Major Armenia when subduâ—…d by the Persians crave the Romans Civil Government and revolt to the Emperor and kill their Magistrates even when they were not governed by the Pope at all § 30. Here he repeateth what he had frivolously said before of the Council of Nice with an odd supposition as if India were in America and then betaketh himself to prove out of the Fathers the Roman Sovereignty but with such vain citations that I dare not tire the Reader with repeating and particularly answering them 1. They being at large answered by Chamier Whittakers and many other Protestants long ago and many of them or most by my self in my key and my former answer to him 2. Because it is needless to him that will peruse the Authors and Histories themselves and useless to him that will not 3. This general answer is sufficient 1. Part of them are the words of spurious books as St. Denis an interpolate book of Cyprian some new found Chaldaick Nicene Canons c. 2. Part of them say nothing of the Pope but only of St. Peter as being the first of the Apostles but not as the Governour of the rest 3. Part or almost all of them speak only of an Imperial Primacy that mention the Pope 4. Part of them speak only of an honorary precellencie of Rome and the Church there 5. Some speak only de facto that at that time the Church of Rome had kept out the Arrian Nestorian and Eutychian Heresies more than the â—…ast did which was because they had more orthodox Emperours and therefore that those sects that then differed from them were not in the Right nor in the Church 6. Some are only the commendations of Eastern Bishops persecuted by the Arrians in the East that fled to Rome for shelter 7. As high words are often given by Doctors and Councils themselves of Cyril and other Bishops of Alexandria and of Bishops of Ierusalem Antioch and Constantinople as those that are acquainted with Church-writings know There needeth no longer confutation of his Citations § 31. My fifth proof was that The Eastern Churches within the Empire were never subjects of the Pope He denyeth this Antecedent I proved it as formerly from the Africans Letters to Celestinus and the words of Basil c So farther 1. Because the Pope chose not the Patriarchs of Alexandria Antioch Ierusalem or Constantinople nor the Bishops under them 2. He did not ordain them nor appoint any Vicar to do it nor did they hold their power as under him To both these he saith It was not necessary c. But their Patriarchal power was from him Answ. Prove that and you do something but no man verst in Church-writings can believe you I remember not to have met with any learned Papist that affirmeth it that the Pope set up the other four Patriarchs it is notorious in history that as the Churches of Ierusalem and Antioch were before the Church of Rome so Alexandria Antioch and Rome were made Patriarchates together and no one of them made the rest and the other two were added since He proveth it because he restored and deposed those Patriarchs as occasion required Answ. 1. Tell this to those that never read such writings Princes and Councils did set them up and cast them out as they saw cause it were tedious and needless to any but the ignorant to recite the multitude of instances through the reign of all the Christian Emperors till Phocas time how little had the Pope to do in most of their affairs 2. They frequently set up and deposed one another far ofter than the Pope did any Doth that prove that they were Governours of each other accordingly 3. Councils then judged all the Patriarchs Roman and all as is notorious 4. The Pope sometime when he saw his advantage and saw one side striving against another would set in to shew his ambition as the prime Patriarch to strengthen himself by such as needed him and usually was against him that was likest to overtop him as neighbour Princes in War are afraid of the strongest and that was usually the Bishop of Constantinople 3. I said They received no Laws of his to rule by He replyeth The Lawes and Canons of the Church they received and those were consirmed by his authority Answ. But did he make them any Lawes himself by the Church your mean Councils and those made Laws for him therefore he was their subject He had but a voice and was not so much as a speaker in the Parliament some Councils you confess he neither presided in nor any for him as Binnius confesseth of Council Const. He had little to do in any of the Councils for 500 or 600 years less by far than the other Patriarchs 4. I said They were not commanded or judged by him He replyeth I have evidenced they were commanded and judged by him Answ. Reader the solution of such historical controversies is by reading the histories themselves Read throughly the histories of Eusebius
which they may shortly expect by the perswasions of some I have attempted to make this Return to this one Reply which is all that ever they published against me that I know of And because true Order requireth first that we understand each others terms I must begin with that though it be the last thing in his Book in which you will see what a sandy fabrick it is which is adorned by them with the great Epithetes of Apostolical Ancient Universal Infallible and how little they know or can make others know what it is of which they do dispute or what that Church is to which so many hundred thousand Christians called by them Hereticks have been sacrificed by sword and flames In the second Part I defend the Visibility of the Church which the Protestants are members of against his vain Objections And in the third Part I defend those Additional arguments by which I proved it In all which I doubt not but the impartial understanding Reader may see that their Terrestrial Universal Monarchy and their condemnation of the greatest part of the Church of Christ are contrary to Sense Reason Tradition Consent Antiquity and Scripture and that their Kingdom standeth but on three Legs IGNORANCE and deceit worldly INTEREST and the SWORD and violence And when these and especially the sword of Princes do cease to uphold it it will presently die and come to nothing For though Melchior Canus say that the Roman Priviledges as he calleth them have stood though the greater number of Bishops and Churches and the Arms of Emperours have been against them yet was it upheld against all these by no better means than those aforesaid The greater number of Churches and Bishops viz. of East and South being against them and all the other four Patriarchates renouncing them as they do to this day they laid the faster hold of the West and by mastering Italy flattering and advancing France promising Kingdoms and Empire to their Adherents threatning the deposition of others dividing Germany and all Europe that many might need the Pope and few be able to resist him and by keeping men ignorant that they might be capable of their Government by these means they overcame the Arms of Emperours and made them their Subjects whose Subjects they had been If there were nothing else to satisfie the Reader against Popery but these following Particulars it were a shame to humane nature to receive it 1. The natural incapacity of one man to be a Church-Monarch any more than to be a Civil Monarch of the whole Earth 2. That Bellarmine confesseth that the Pope succeedeth not Peter as an Apostle but as an Universal Pastor But Peter never had any higher office than to be the first Apostle 1 Cor. 12. 28. God hath set in the Church first Apoctles not first a Vice-Christ 3. That they affirm that it is not de fide that the Pope is Peter's Successor 4. That none of the other Apostles had Successors as in superior seats nor did any Patriarch much less twelve claim power as Successors of any Apostle save Antioch and Rome and Antioch as from the same St. Peter but no Universal Soveraignty 5. That whoever will turn Papist must confess that he was an ungodly hypocrite before and that all professed Christians are so save the Papists that know their doctrine 6. That he must renounce the senses of all sound men and believe them all deceived by Miracle The Contents of the first Part. CHAP. 1. Sect. 1. HIs Explication of the terms CATHOLICK CHURCH 1. He excludeth all from Christs Universal Church and Christianity that are no Members of Christian Congregations Yet meaneth not only Churches but Families Ships or any civil Assemblies Damning all solitary Christians or that are alone among Infidels 2. He maketh subjection to the supreme Pastor necessary and yet saith the Votum of it alone will serve Sect. 2. He unchurcheth Parish-Churches He maketh dependance on lawful Pastors in general necessary but not on the Pope particularly Sect. 3 What Faith must be in a Church-member His implicite discourse of implicite faith which indeed is no faith of any particular Article Several senses of implicite faith opened His general faith proved No particular faith In what sense we believe all that God hath revealed Sect. 8. His instances explained Sect. 9. When virtual repentance sufficeth Sect. 10. His avoiding to answer Sect. 11. The Papists Church invisible Sect. 12. His strange Doctrine of generals Sect. 13. What Christianity is is no point of faith with them Sect. 14. The invisibility of their Church further proved Sect. 15. Their contradictions about receiving all faith on the Churches Authority Sect. 16. 17. The true method of believing Sect. 18. Humane faith is joyned with Divine Sect. 20. What the Essentials of Christianity are Sect. 21. Papists utterly disagreed what a Christian is and confounded and their Church invisible Sect. 22. Notes of great moment hereupon The baptizing of men that believe only that there is a rewarding God is a new false baptism Sect. 23. Q 3. Who are the Pastors whose rejection unchurcheth men Of Parish Priests Q. 4. How shall all the world be sure that Popes and Priests had a just Election or ordination Sect. 24 25 26 27 28. CHAP. 2. Their sense of the word HERESY Whether Heresie be in will or understanding Sect. 1. Hereticks by their definition are unknown Sect. 2. The power of judging of the Sufficiency of proposals make 's the Clergie Masters of all men lives Sect. 3. He maketh none Hereticks that deny not Gods Veracity Sect. 4. And all Hereticks to deny it Yea all that receive not every truth safficiently proposed Yet unsaith all and saith that not culpable neglect of sufficient proof of all but contradiction to the known proposal of lawful superiours makes a Heretick Sect. 7. Q. What sufficient proposal is Sect. 8. 9. He saith that the true Church-Governours may be known without Revelation Sect. 10. Sufficiency further examined Sect. 11. He hereticateth themselves or none Sect. 12. Whether every misunderstanding of an intelligible Text of Scripture be Heresie Sect. 13. What Heresie is indeed Sect. 14. CHAP. 3. Their meaning of the word POPE Sect. 1. Popes judged Herteicks by many Councils Where Christs institution of the Papacy must be found Sect. 2. Who ad esse must elect the Pope Sect. 3. W. J. cannot and dare not tell Consecration denyed to be necessary to the Pope Sect. 6. Neither Papal nor Episcopal Iurisdiction he saith depends on Papal or Episcopal ordination Sect. 7. So they may be Laymen What such jurisdiction is Sect. 8. What notice or proof is necessary to the subjects CHAP. 4. Their sense of the word BISHOP The Pope is not of Gods ordaining in their way Sect. 1. 2. Their Bishop of Calcedons testimony put off Sect. 3. They make all men that will or no men to be Bishops His great confusion and contradictions Saying we want not Episcopal Consecration but Election
and yet be punished if he do not come to Church and communicate 2. Lament Reader to think what engines Clergy-tyranny hath made against Christiaâ—… Love Peace and Concord to set the world into a war If the Council for want of understanding a point of doubtful words pronounce such words Heresie all people for feaâ—… of being burnt and damned must fly from all as hereticks that they think are for those condemned words All our Plowmen and women must be supposed to know that it is heresie e. g. to say that Christ hath but one will though the speaker mean objectively one or else One by Union of the divine and humane nature or to say that it was not God that was conceived and suffered and dyed and was passible when he meaneth only formalâ—…ter not As God but onâ—… he that is God and then every family must have an inquisition and people must fâ—… from one another before any judgment Doth not this give every lad and woman somâ—… power of the keyes and every subject a power of judging Kings and Judges 3. But mark Reader how sin condemneth it self as envy eateth its own flesh e. g. general Council condemneth Pope Eugenius as an Heretick or Iohn XXIII or others Tâ—… whole Church of Rome continued in communion and subjection to this condemned Herâ—…tick as they did with Honorius Therefore by their own sentence the whole Church 〈◊〉 Rome must be taken for Hereticks And if so 4. See how they justifie us for separating from them when they judge us hereticks themselves if we communicate with them Alas if a wrangling proud Clergy have but ignorance and pride enough to call Gods servants Berengarians Wicklefists Waldenses Lutherans Zuinglians Calvinists Iconoclasts Luciferians Quartodecimani c. hereticks all families and neighbourhoods are presently bound to fly from one another as if they had the plague or were enemies And must subjection come in for heresie If you call our King a heretick must all his subjects be taken for heretiâ—…ks for having communion and subjection to him Will the Popes chargeâ—… yea or real heresie disoblige us from Subjection And yet will you pretend to be loyal subjects § 21. I gave him the proof that he before called for from Thomas à Iesu Paulâ—… Veriditus Harris of Dublin against Usher that their writers vindicate the Greeks from heresie To which he saith that I could not but know that he meant of the modern Greeks as hereticks and not of the ancient fathers of which Bernard Aquinas Paul Harris speak Answ. This Answer hath a very bold face if it do not blush 1. It was the words of Thomas à sancto Iesu de convers Gent. a late writer that I recited to whose testimony as his he giveth not one word of answer And Thom. in the words cited expressely speaketh of the present Greeks and it is the very scope of his writing 2. Thomas cited ex junioribus Azorius 1. Iustit Moral l. 8. c. 20. To which he giveth not a word of answer 3. Paul Harris saith that when the Greeks had explicated their à Patre per filium viz. in the Council at Florence they were found to believe very orthodoxely and catholickly yeâ—… doth this man say that Harris speaks of the ancient Greeks expressely contrary both to his drisâ—… and words Is there any dealing with these false hereticaters It 's well that no Council hath anathematized falshood and calumny for heresies else we must have no communion with such that have no better meanes to dispute down christian Love and Concord Yea what need I more testimony than that Council of Florence it self which so judged and was supposed to heal the breach by explications Nor is it true that Bernard and Aquinas spake not of the Greeks in their times as owning the same cause that these do now § 22. I told him if Greeks and Latines will divide the Church and damn each other they shall not draw us into their guilt He saith again that the Church cannot be divided it is so perfectly One Answ. If I have not shamed the Saying let me bear the shame though we say that it cannot have any part totally divided from Christ for then it were no part and therefore none is divided relatively or really from the whole body But if the parts may not have sinful divisions from each other secundum quid Paul told the Corinthians amiss and the Papists Historians much mistook that talkt of about 40 Schisms at Rome and of the Popes adherents when part of the body had one head and part another for so long a time and to such sad effects § 23. Next I cited him the express words of their own Florentine Council professing that the Greeks and Latines were found upon conference to mean the same thing To which he saith 1. That it was but a few of them and that Marcus Ephesus dissented 2. Thaâ—… they revolted when they returned home Answ. 1. See still how they fight against their selves The seeming concord of this Council which did the Pope who was newly condemned and deposed by a great general Council more service than ever any did them is the great pretense of their false boasting that the Greek Church is subject to the Pope And yet he teaches us truly to say that it was but a few and that Marcus Eph. dissented and that they stood not to it when they came home The known truth is that the Emperor in distress constrained some to dissemble in hope of relief of which when he failed the submission was at an end And the Church never consented to it 2. But as to the point in hand it is not the Greeks recovery from an error that the Council mentioneth but the discovery of their meaning which was found to be Orthodox And though they yet use not the Romans phrase they never retracted the sense in which they were found to be orthodox § 24. Next he citing Nilus that the Greeks broke off from the Latines for the filioque alone I recited Nilus his title and words at large professing that There is no other cause of dissention between the Latin and Greek Churches but that the Pope refuseth to deferre the cognisance and judgment of that which is controverted to a general Council but he will sit the sole Master and Iudge of controversie which is a thing aliene to the Lawes and actions of the Apostles and Fathers The cause of the disserenâ—… saith he is not the sublimity of the point exceeding mans capacity for other matters that have divers times troubled the Church have been of the same kind This therefore is not the cause of the dissention much lesse the Scripture But who the fault is in any one may easily tell that is well in his wits Nor is it because the Greeks 〈◊〉 claim the Primacy N. B. He mentioneth that the Pope succeedeth Petâ—… only as a Bishop or dained by him as many other Bishops originally ordained by him do
and that his primacy is nâ—… governing power nor given him by Peter but by Princes and Councils which he copiouâ—… proveth To this he saith 1. that yet this may stand with the â—…ioque being the first cause Answ. 1. But the question was of the sole cause 2. He denyeth it to be any cause but only an Occasion and the Popes usurpatâ—…on to be the only Cause 3. Is it not known that the Quarrel and Breach began long before about the Title of universal Bishop though the Greeks did not then excommunicate you 2. He saith that By this it 's implied that the Greeks agree with them in all things save the Popes Sovereignty Answ. Doth it follow that because he saith that this only is the cause of the division of your Churches therefore there are no other disagreements all sober Christians have learnt to forbear excommunications and separations when yet there are many disagreements and we never denyed but the Greeks agree more with you than they ought and specially in striving who shall be great § 25. To his repeated words that all these were not distinct congregations c. I told him again that we are for no congregations distinct from Christians as such To which he replyeth again 1. That no hereticks say they depart from the Church as Christian. Answ. But if they do so it 's no matter though they do not say so Whoever departeth from the Church for somewhat Essential to Christianity departeth from it as Christian but you say your self that all hereticks depart from the Church for somewhat Essential to Christianity Ergo c. Object Then they are Apostates Answ. Apostates in the common sense are those that openly renounce Christianity in terms as such but those that renounce any essential part are Apostates really though but secundum quid and noâ—… the usuall sense 2. He intreateth me to name him the first Pope that was the Head of the whole Church in the world Answ. 1. There never was any such for the whole Church never owned him Abussia Persia India c never was governed by him to this day and not past a third or fourth part is under him now 2. But I must name the first that claimed it had I lived a thousand years at every Popes elbow I would have ventured to conjecture but it is an unreasonable motion to make to me that am not 70 years old I must confess my ignorance I know not who was the first man that was for the Sacrament in one kind only without the cup nor who first brought in praying in an unknown tongue or Images in Churches nor who first changed the custome of adoring without genuflexion on the Lords dayes I leave such Taskes to Polydore Virgil de Invent. rerum Little know I who was the first proud Pope or Heretical or Simoniacal or Infidel Pope it satisfies me to know that 1. It was long otherwise 2 And that it came in by degrees nemo repentè sit pessâ—…mus 3. And that it should not be so The rest of his charge against the Greeks c. requireth no answer instead of doing it he tells me he has proved there must be governours of the whole Church which if he had done as to any Universal Head he might have spared all the rest of his labour § 26. I thought a while that he had answered all my book but I find that he slips over that which he had no mind to meddle with and among others these following words you may judge why P. 115. Many of the Greeks have been of brotherly charity to our Churches of late Cyril I need not name to you whom your party procured murdered for being a Protestant A worthy Patriarch of Constantinople who sent us by Sir Tho. Roe our Alexandrian Sept. and whose confession is published And why is not He as much the Greek Church as Ieremias Meletius first Patriarch of Alexandria and then of Constantinople was highly offended with the fiction of a submission of the Alexandrian Church to Rome under a counterfeit Patriarch Gabriel's name and wrote thus of the Pope in his Letters to Sigismund King of Poland An. 1600. Perspiciat Mojestas tua nos cum majoribus c. Your Majesty may see that we with our Ancestors are not ignorant of the Roman Pope whom you pray us to acknowledge nor of the Patriarch of Constant. and the rest of the Bishops of the Apostolical Stats There is one universal Head which is our Lord Iesus Christ. Another there cannot be unlesse it be a two-headed body or rather a monster of a body You may see most serene King that I may say nothing of that Florentine Council as a thing worthy of silence that we departed not from the opinions and traditions of the East and West which by seven General Councils they consigned and obsigned to us but that they departed who are daily delighted with novelties In the same letter he commendeth Cyril and what can a Protestant say more against the Vice-Christ and your novelties and the false pretended submission of the Greeks So much to that which he calleth his First part of his Book An Answer to W. J's second Part of his Reply § 1. IN this which he calls his Second Part there is so much of meer words or altercation and of his false interpretation of some particular histories and citations that should I answer it fully it would be a great snare to the Reader 1. To weary him 2. To lose the matter in controversie in a wood of words 3. And to suppose us both to strive about circumstances and so to cast it by that I shall not lose so much of my time to so ill a purpose All that I desire of the Reader that would have a particular answer is 1. That he remember the answer that is already given to much of it 2. That he observe that almost all his citations signifie no more than 1. That both the Romans and other Patriarchs were long striving who should be the greatest and therefore intermeddling with as many businesses as they could 2. That the supream Church-power being then placed by consent and by the Emperors in Councils the five Patriarchs ought to be at these Councils when they were Universal as to the Empire 3. That Rome had the first place in order of these Patriarchs or Seats 4. That the eastern Bishop when opprest by Arrlans and persecutions did fly for council and countenance to the Roman Emperors who held orthodox and to the Roman Bishops as the first Patriarchs and as having interest in the Emperors he that was one of the greatest might help the oppressed to some relief having an orthodox Emperor by which means Constantius was constrained and Athanasius restored by the threatning of a war by the western Emperor and not by the authority of the Pope And the like aid was oft sought from Alexandria and Antioch 5 That this man and the rest of them straineth all such words as
those General Councils in all their Decrees Constitutions and Canons intended to Oblige all Christians through the whole World and thereby demonstrated themselves to have Iurisdiction of the whole Church and never so much as insinuated that their Authority was limited within the Precincts of the Empire Answ. 1. I have proved the contrary at large already 2. They might well commend their Decrees or Judgments to all Christians on two accounts 1. For Concord sake it being desirable that all Christians should as much as may be be of one mind and way 2. Ratione rei decretâ—… And so all Churches are bound to receive the same Truth that one is bound to If the Bishop of the poorest City Excommunicate a Man justly for Heresie all the Bishops in the World that know it are bound to deny Communion to that Man and so Cyprian commended the Bishop of Rome for denying Communion to Felicissimus partly because they are bound to keep Concord with all Christians and Order and partly because they are bound to avoid Hereticks And yet such a Bishop is not Governour of all other Bishops nor Cyprian of the Bishop of Rome But let us hear your Proofs § 26. I. Thus saith W. I. the Council of Ephesus saith Their Decrees were for the good of the whole world Answ. I do not mean to search so large a Volumn to find where seeing you tell me not where When as he is unworthy to be Disputed with that knoweth not how commonly then the Roman Empire was called Totus Orbis and even the Scripture saith That all the World was Taxed by Augustus How oft doth Nazianzene complain that the Bishops and Councils had distracted and divided the whole World And also that all that is for the good of the whole World is not an Act of Government of the whole World e. g. The Works of Augustine Chrysostome c. § 27. II. Saith he Thus the Council of Chalcedon Act. 7. declareth the Church of Antioch to have under its Government Arabia Answ. But do you think that no part of Arabia was in the Empire Look but in the Maps of the Empire if you have no other notice And you will be put hard to it to prove that they meant the rest of Arabia § 28. III. And act 16. c. 28. saith he That the Bishop of Const. should have under him certain Churches in Barbarous Nations which you must prove to have been under the Empire Answ. 1. I thought you must have proved that it was out of the Empire who undertook to prove it as you affirm it 2. But seeing Papists lay Mens Salvation upon such skill in History Cosmography and Chronology which this great Disputer had so little of himself we must study it better for the time come And I did fully prove to you before that the Sauromatâ—… many of the Scythians and Goths were conquered and in the Empire and Barbarians were in the Empire And by the way Note 1. That this â—…uncil of Chalcedon even writing to Leo Bishop of Rome tell him That They were called by the Grace of God and Sanction of the most Pious Emperours not mentioning any call of Leo's 2. That the Emperour Martian in his Decree against Hereticks and for this Council saith All Men must believe as Athanasius Theophylus and Cyril believed not naming the Bishop of Rome and that Cyril Praefuit Concilio Ephesino not saying that the Bishop of Rome did it or Cyril as his Vicar And that the Council-Bishops contemptuously against the Romans cryed out They that gain-say let them walk to Rome and stood to their last Canon against the Popes dissent § 29. IV. Next he saith Nicephorus l. 5. c. 16. saith That Leo the Emperour Wrote to the Bishops of all Provinces together Circularibus per Orbem literis ad Ecclesias missis Leo haec sic ad omnes Episcopos misit which he accounts were above a thousand to have them subscribe to the Council of Chalcedon Answ. Some Men perceive not when they consute themselves 1. I tell you Totus Orbis was a common Title of the Empire 2. Had Leo any power out of the Empire His commands shew that they were his Subjects that he wrote to 3. Were any called or wrote to under the Name of Provinces but the Roman Provinces 4. Do you think that there were not more than a thousand Bishops in the Empire Yea many thousands if poor Ireland had as many hundred as Ninius speaks of 5. But remember hence that if all Bishops were written to then the Bishop of Rome was written to to Subscribe the 28 Canon of the Council of Chalcedon which he refused as Papists say But indeed the Epistle that Niceph. there mentioneth c. 16. was but to enquire of all the Bishops whether they stood to the Council of Chalcedon or no and what Bishop of Alexandria they were for to save the calling of a new Council and it is plain he wrote only to his Subjects § 30. V. Next he saith The Bishops of the second Armenia which seem to have been out of the Empire wrote an Answer and Adelphus Bishop of Arabia Subscribes among the rest to this Epistle Answ. 1. He tells me â—…ot where to find any of this In Nicephorus there I find it not 2. But if he know not that part of both the Armenias were Roman Provinces he may see it in the Titles of the Nicene Council and in the Maps and Histories of the Empire And of Arabia I spake before § 31. VI. He saith The Bishop of the second Messia which you must prove to have been then under the Empire writ that the Council of Nice delivered the Faith toti terrarum Orbi and style the Bishop of Rome the Head of Bishops and that the Council of Chalcedon was gathered by Pope Leo's Command Answ. Here is neither Matter nor Authority worthy an Answer 1. He citeth no Author for what he saith 2. Whether he meaneth Messua or Messia or Messina they were all in the Empire But what he meaneth I know not Since I find in his Errat Messia r. Toti But where or what Toti meaneth my Cosmographers tell me not If it be Tottaium that he meaneth it was a City of Bithynia under the Arch-Bishop of Nice But it seems he durst not say it was in the Empire but instead of proving it in I must prove it out without knowing Place or Author 2. He that yet understandeth not the Romans Terrarum Orbem and he that reading History can believe that Pope Leo called the Council at Chalcedon is not to be convinced by me if he maintain that the Turks called it He tells us out of no cited Author of an Epistle subscribed by Dita Bishop of Odyssâ—… in Scythia which I have nothing to do with till I know the Epistle But he should have known that Odyssus is a City of Mysia near the Euxine Sea within the Empire § 32. VII His last Instance is considerable viz. Of the Bishops of Spain
France and Germany To which I say 1. That none but Rome much medled in the Empire after their Conquest Nor Rome much in comparison of Alexandria Constantinople and Antioch 2. I easily confess that those Churches within the Empire had been settled in their several powers by the Councils at Nice and Const. did plead the same Canonical Settlement to keep their possession when they were conquered And that e. g. Rome under Theodorick and other Arrians was willing to keep their Relation to the Orthodox Churches of the Empire for their strength And Neighbours that were under Heathens or Arrians were glad of a little countenance from Councils of great Bishops in the Empire as Basil and the Easternes under Valens were from the West without Subjection to the Pope § 33. Pag. 116. After some trifling Quibbles he Answereth my Charge That their Church is not one but two having at times two Heads The Pope to some and a Council to others To this he saith 1. That this belongs to them that take Councils to be above the Pope and not to him who is of a contrary Opinion Answ. It is to your Party in general I did not say that W. I. was two Churches but that those called Papists are so 2. He saith That they also can answer me with a wet finger for the Pope is in the Council and not excluded Answ. Such wet-fingerd Answers serve to deceive the Ignorant The Question is not of the Popes Natural Person but of his Political Two summa potestates make two Polities The Pope in a General Council is not the summae potestas if a Council be above him and may Judge and Depose him To be a Member of a Council that hath the Sovereignty is not to have the Sovereignty Did you not know this § 34. I urged him as his proper work to answer these Questions Whether the Church of which the Subjects of the Pope are Members hath been Visible ever since Christ's days on Earth And therein 1. Whether the Papacy that is their Universal Papal Government over all the Earth hath so long continued 2. Whether all the Catholick Church did still submit to it 3. Whether those that did submit to it took it to be necessary to the Being of the Church and Mens Salvation or only to the more Orderly and Better being But he would not be driven to touch at any of these or prove the perpetual Visibility of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 over my last 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 over many of his Imâ—… 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 that I refer him but to the pâ—…sing of the Histories which 〈◊〉 coâ—…th with the General Answers which I have before given And he will find 1. That the Pope was but a National Primate 2. And that by Humane Institution 3. And under a General Council 4. Striving upon every Advantage to be greater 5. Under the power of Princes 6. And when he lost his power over all the other four Patriarchs the West falling from the Empire he sought to bring the Western Princes under him and claimed a Government over all the World The Third Part A Defence of my Arguments to prove That the Church of which the Protestants are members hath been visible ever since the daies of Christ on Earth § 1. I Began with an Explication of the termes but this Disputer saith that this is of no concern to his Argument nor much to my answer Answ. It pleaseth not those that are all darkness such Explications as you gave me are indeed of little Use. 1. He saith I make Believers and true Christians Synonyma's whereas one may be a Believer as an unbaptized Catechumene but is not a Christian till baptized Answ. As a Pope once told one how little wit in a place of power would serve to govern the world so I see by this man How little Reason will serve to set up a Iesuite for an â—…nanswerable disputant among the ignorant The word Christian as well as Believer signifieth 1. A heart-consenter to the Baptismal Covenant 2. Or a Professor of that consent And 1. Regularly by Baptism 2. Or without it when it cannot be â—…ad 1. As soon as a man Believeth and Consenteth he is a Christian before God 2. As soon as he solemnly professeth it he is an incompleat Christian before men 3. As soon as he professeth it in Baptism he is orderly and regularly a Christian before the Church Even as two secretly maâ—…rying are marryed before God and when they publish their mutual Consent and Covenant as suppose it were where a priest is not to be had they are irregularly married before men but solemn Matrimony maketh it a Legal Marriage in fore And this distinction holds of the word Beleiver as well as of Christian A Beleiver a Disciple and a Christian were Synonyma's before Popery was born § 2. Next he saith that my words Subject to Christ their Head are equivocal Because Subject may signifie but inferior and Head but a principal member Answ. What is not equivocal to a Jesuite 1. Did I not put this first The Church is the Kingdom of Iesus Christ 2. When I said It is the whole company of Believers subject to Christ their head are not the words significative enough of a governing Head And did I not adde the constitutive parts are Christ and Christians as the pars imperans subdita are there more notifying words in use If there are tell'them me if you can or was not this a cavil that had more of Will and Interest than of Conscience § 3. I said Protestants are Christians protesting against and disallowing Popery To this he cavils 1. That the name had another original 2. That the Greeks Arrians Antitrinitarians Socinians Hussites Anabaptists Familists Millenaries Quakers are not Protestants Answ. 1. Did I undertake to tell you the first Rise of the name or only to tell whom I mean in my dispute If I had the German protestation immediately against a particular Edict was principally and finally against Popery and in that sence is the name continued But it is not the Name but the Church and Religion that I dispute of You know that the Name Reformed Catholick Christians pleaseth us better than the Name of Protestants Were not Christians after they were first called so at Antioch of the same Religion as before when they were called but Disciples and Believers yea and Nazarens by their adversaries 2. Who would have thought that you had taken Arrians Antitrinitarians Socinians or any that deny an Essential part of Christianity for true Christians Did you not here oft profess the contrary and those that are no Christians are not in my definition those that are Christians as Greeks Millenaries and Hussites and most Anabaptists with us are Protestants but not meer Protestants they have somewhâ—…t more and worse which giveth them another name but if Christians protesting against Popery they are of the same Church universal as we are § 4. When I call Popery