forward to meddle with more publick Church matters without our Superiors invitation or consent but we may say that it is our judgment that these additions following would greatly strengthen the Interest of Religion Church and Concord I. That the Parish Churches be acknowledged True Churches and their Ministers such Overseers as are necessary to Essentiate True Churches that is That all Presbyters be Episcopi Gregis Overseers of the Flock and the Incumbent the President among his Curate Presbyters where there be such And that the Diocesan is not the sole Essentiating Church Pastors and the Diocesan Church the lowest particular Church and the Parish Assemblies but his Chapels or Parts of the lowest Church and the Parish Ministers his Curates and no true Pastors II. That no Lay-Elder Chancellour or Civilian have or use the Decretive Power of Excommunication or Absolution called the Keys III. That New and more Peaceable Canons be made instead of that Book which now obtaineth according to the Scripture Canons Or that there be no Canons but Scripture besides Statute Laws IV. That Bishops have no Forcing Power nor the Writ de Excommunicato Capiendo or any Force by the Sword be Annexed to Excommunication as such but that the Magistrates hear and judge before they punish and Obedience to Bishops be unconstrained and voluntary V. That Bishops judge Church-Causes in Session with their Presbyters and not alone nor with some few of their own Choice or with Lay-men but in regular Synods and Ordain there by their consent and after sufficient trial of them that seek Ordination And so of Institution VI. That Diocesses be not greater than the Diocesan is able to Oversee and that he forbid not the Parish Pastors their particular works but only use his general overcight and power on Appeals VII That Bishops oft visit the inferior Pastors and Churches and instruct the Juniors by direction and Example how to Preach and guide the Flock and rebuke the Erroneous Scandalous Unpeaceable and Negligent VIII That the Bishops be Chosen by the Diocesan Synod and Consented to freely without force by their City flocks where they reside and Invested by the King who hath the power of Temporal Privileges IX That the City and neighbour Pastors be the Cathedral Dean and Prebends at least where City Churches want maintenance or that they ambulatorily Preach abroad where there is most need X. If Arch-Bishop Usher's Form or Reduction of Government to the Primitive state or else King Charles the Second his Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs be but setled by Law it will be a Healing and Great Reformation inferior Synods not hurtfully fettered being allowed under the Diocesan Synods And whether the Diocesans be Called Bishops or Arch-Bishops as Successors to the Apostles and Evangelists in the ordinary parts of their Office a general care of many Churches the name is to be left to each mans free judgment As to the ignorant clamors for a real or seeming Re-ordination 1. I have said so much against it in my Treatise of Episcopacy and my Disputation of Ordination in my Dispute of Church-Government and my Christian Concord that while the objectors by contempt refuse to read and answer them it will be no cure of their pride and partiality to repeat the same again But I say that I have fully proved unanswered that they that were Ordained by Synods of Incumbent Pastors and specially those also then approved by the Westminster Assembly had a better Ordination and that by true Bishops than either Papists or meer English Diocesans that are not Arch-bishops can give And yet they Re-ordain not Papists 1. Either they take the Parish-Churches that is the Pastor and Communicants distinct from the meer Auditors and Catechumens and from the Aliens to be true proper Churches in political Sense or not If yea Then those Churches have Bishops For Ecclesia est plebs Episcopo adunata ubi Episcopus ibi Ecclesia Their own Principle is That it is no proper political Church without a Bishop There are three degrees of Bishops 1. All Presbyters are Episcopi Gregis by the consent of Papists and Protestants 2. The chief Incumbents that have Curates or may have are Episcopi Praesides The Ordination without Diocesans was by these two sorts of Bishops 3. True Diocesans are Arch-bishops Episcopi generales plurium Ecclesiarum We refuse not their Ordination but Men have true Episcopal Ordination without it But if they say that the Diocesan is the lowest Bishop of a particular Church and that the Parish-Incumbent Rectors are no true Bishops and their Assemblies no true political Churches formed of Bishops but only parts of one Diocesan Church infimi Ordinis we abhor such Tyrannical Schismatical Diocesans and their pretence of proper power to Ordain and the Primitive Church had never any such Ordaniers or Bishops And I advise all Ministers neither to be Re-ordained by such nor to yield to the appearance of such an evil by coming under their equivocating imposition of hands lest they take God's Name in vain and harden Papists and Church-Tyrants in their false condemnation of the Reformed Churches If it be want of a legal right in England that they pretend let the Magistrate give you a Licence or Legal right I write not this for my own interest for I was Ordained by a Diocesan and am past all hopes or fears of Man. CHAP. LX. The Reasons of these ten Articles L. YOV must give me leave to tell you what objections are like to be raised against your proposed Articles of Reconciliation And first your own party will be unsatisfied in them and so they will do no good because here is not a word against Arch-bishops Bishops Deans Arch-deacons and the rest that bear office in their Courts which yet is the thing that you your self seem most to dissent from and which the Covenant did renounce M. 1. We have so much swearing and unswearing and forswearing that I will meddle as little as I can in things that look like Perjury You know that as the last Generation was sworn against Prelacy this new Generation is sworn to it Yea in a manner the whole Land is sworn or covenanted never to endeavour any alteration of it And how much soever I am against that Oath yet I will meddle as little as I can in urging men to that which they take for Perjury And I have elsewhere told you that the Covenant renounced not all Episcopacy many of the Assembly of Divines declared their dissent from any such renunciation and had entred their protestation against it as Dr. Cornel. Burges told me had not the Explication been added which confineth the Renunciation to the English frame And that the present Non-Conformists would have thankfully received the Primitive Episcopacy they shewed by their motion 1660. 2. We offer this form on supposition that we may not have what we think best but what we can joyfully submit to for our Concord and the Churches safety 3. I have
they are of the same mind and party M. Are you a Lawyer and do you accuse men in the Temple without naming them and bringing proof of their guilt Noxa caput sequitur should all the Clergy be called guilty if Sibthorp or Manwaring or Heylin were proved so what error you accuse them of prove and punish them for no other 6. But I prove that the Bishops themselves made other Ordination necessary Because they would Ordain none without sinful subscriptions and conditions which must not be yielded to If you can prove the terms lawful on which they Ordain I shall trie your skil anon II. I farther prove the Ordination in question valid thus Where there is a true notification of God's will that this person shall be a Minister of the Gospel there is no want of validity in his Ordination But those here ordained by Presbyters might have such a true notification of God's will Ergo The major is plain Because God's will and Man's consent are the fundamentum of the Relation therefore nothing can be wanting to it 's being and validity The Minor is proved Those men that have laudable ability and willingness and the consent of a people in true necessity and the approbation of a National Assembly of Learned Divines of which many Bishops were called to be members and the investing Ordination of the gravest Senior Pastors that were then to be had had a true notification of God's will that they should be his Ministers But such were these in question Ergo. III. The way of ordination which was valid in the Primitive Church is now valid But such is that in question Ergo. As to the Minor The Ordination of such Pastors as were but the Rectors of single Congregations was it that was valid in the Primitive Church But such is that in question Doctor Hammond labours to prove that in Scripture time there were no other Bishops or Presbyters but the single Pastors of single Assemblies Mr. Clerkson hath fully proved and I more fully in my Treatise of Episcopacy that for a hundred and fifty years if not much more there were no particular Churches bigger than our Parishes A Bishop then was but the chief Parish or Congregational Pastor who guided it with his Assistance And such are all our Incumbents especially in great Towns who have Chapels and Curates and Lecturers to assist them And Grotius de Imper. sum Pot. sheweth that really the chief Pastor of a Church is a Bishop whatever they call him But I have so largely proved in my Treatise of Episcopacy pag. 231 232 c. that our questioned Ordainers were scripture Bishops and that those now called Presbyters Ordained long after that I must not repeat the same things here again IV. Those that are in Orders may confer Orders Ordinis est Ordinare as Vsher was wont to say As Physicians make Physicians and Philosophers make Philosophers and Geneâ—ation propagateth the Species And our Church consenteth to this 1. In that Presbyters must concur in Ordination by Imposition of hands which is an act of authority and collation 2. In that the Convocation hath a greater power even Canon making and that Convocation consisteth half and more of Presbyters and the Canons Excommunicateth all that deny it to be the represensative Church of England But Presbyters have the power of Order as Bishop Carlton de Iurisdict proveth it commonly acknowledged equal with Bishops pag. 7. And the Church of England in King Aelfrik's time ad Wolf. in Spelman pag. 576. l. 17. Affirm that Bishops and Presbyters are but one Order V. Those may ordain validly whose Ordination is more warrantable than that of Roman Bishops for our Bishops own theirs as valid and ordain them not again when they turn Protestants But the Presbyters that Ordained here fourteen years did it more warrantably than the Roman Bishops Ergo 1. The Papists Ordain men to a false Office to be Mass-Priests But the said Pastors ordained none but to the same office that Christ instituted 2. The Papists have their power of Ordination from the Pope whose own power and office in Specie is a false Usurpation But it is not so here where the ordaining Pastors were lawfully called 3. Papists Ordination enters them into a false Church in Specie a pretended catholick Church headed by the Pope but our Pastors entered them into no Church but Christs 4. Papists make them take sinful Oaths and Conditions before they Ordain them But these Pastors at least that imposed not the Covenant did not If yet any will nullifie the Reformed Churches and Ministry and their Ordination and not the Papists we may understand what their Mind and Communion is VI. That Ordination is valid which is less culpable than many Diocesans But such is that in question Ergo To the proof of the Minor which only needs proof here 1. Some Diocesans here have been Papists as Godfrey Goodman of Gloucester and divers have pleaded for and owned a Forreign Iurisdiction which the Oath of Supremacy abjureth 2. I have fully proved in the said Treatise of Episcopacy that the Office of Pastors of single Churches is more warrantable than our Diocesans who are the sole Bishops of many score or hundred Churches 3. The said Presbyters at least who medled not with the Covenant imposed no unlawful condition on the Ordained as too many Bishops have done 4. Many Bishops plead the derivation of their power from Rome And what theirs is I shewed before But because I must not write a Treatise on this one question you may read it done copiously and unanswerably by Voetius against Comel Iansenius de desperata Causa Papatus Yet I add one difference more The Ordainers and Ordained in question had the consent of the Flocks and neighbour Ministers but the said Bishops come in by the Magistrate without the consent or knowledge of the Flocks and so do the Ministers usually whom they Ordain And what the ancient Church thought of this abundance of Canons shew I 'le now cite but one Concil Nic. 2. Can. 3. Omnem Electionem quae fit a Magistratibus Episcopi Presbyteri vel Diaconi irritam manere ex canone dicente siquis Episcopus secularibus Magistratibus usus per eos Ecclesiam obtinuerit deponatur segregetur omnes qui cum eo Communicant Oportet enim eum qui est promovendus ad Episcopatum ab Episcopis eligi quemadmodum a sanctis patribus Nicaenis decretum est in Can. qui dicit Episcopum oportet maxime quidem ab omnibus qui sunt in provincia constitui And many Councils nullifie their Episcopacy that come not in by the election or consent of Clergy and People which ad hominem is somewhat to them that urge such Councils against us L. I confess your reasons seem unanswerable at least as to the case of necessity which I am convinced was the case of those that were ordained when there were no Bishops to whom they could have access or no
be not bound to approve every Law he is bound in the main to execute them in his place And if he know that the Imposers of his Oath did mean that he should in a special manner execute e. g. the Laws against Protestants he should not take that Oath contrary to their sence Our Canons make these things forementioned their principal part as you may see by putting them first with that strange penalty of Excommunication ipso facto And indeed it is no small part of the whole Book that we dissent from II. But moreover we dare not promise or swear Obedience to our Ordinaries till we know that Lay-men governing by the Keys are not those Ordinaries I have consulted Lawyers and some say that only the Bishop is meant by our Ordinary But I think they are but few that say so And indeed we are bound to believe the contrary because terms of Art or Science are to be understood according to the use of the men of that Art or Science But men of that profession commonly call other Judges of their Courts our Ordinaries besides the Bishops So doth R. Cousins in his Tables and others 2. And other Governing Ministers whom we must obey are mentioned in the Ordination Covenant also besides our Ordinaries Our Reasons against this are these 1. It is unlawful to confederate with Sacrilegious Prophaâ—ers of a great Ordinance of God in stablishing and practising that Sacrilegious Prophanation But to Covenant or Swear Obedience to Lay-men in usurping the power of the Keys of Decretive Excommunication and Absolution we fear is such and as to the Minor the reason of our fear is if it be Sacrilegious prophanation for a Lay-man to usurp the other parts of the Pastoral Office then it is so for him to usurp the power of the Keyes But the Antecedent is confest as to the Sacraments and the charge of ordinary Teaching and Guidance of the Flocks c. 2. Ad hominem If the Bishops take it for Usurpation in Presbyters to exercise this power supposing it proper to themselves they must judge it much more so in Lay-men L. The Lay-men do it by the Bishops Authority and in his Name and so he doth it by them His Name is to the Excommunications M. 1. The Chancellors have their Commissions from the King which the Bishops cannot alter 2. If it be so it is the worse 1. That the Bishops name should be abused to a Sentence when he never heard or tryed the Cause If this be against the Bishops Will it is a forgery if he consent it seems he trusteth his Conscience in the Chancellors hands and Excommunicateth all at a venture that the Chancellor Excommunicateth though he know not whom nor why which is against the Light of Nature and the common Justice of the World. 2. And it is contrary to the nature of the Pastoral Office to execute it by men of another Calling Either it is proper to Bishops or not if not Presbyters or Lay-men may use it if yea then none may be deputed to use it that are not Bishops If the Keys and not the Sacraments may be used by Lay-men then the use of the Keys is not proper to Pastors but only Sacraments But no man can give a just reason why Lay-men may not give the Sacraments as well as use the Keys Yea indeed the Sacramental administration cannot be proper to the Pastoral Office if the Keys be not For the â—se of the Keys is to Judge who shall be admitted to Sacramental communion and if only Delivering and not Iudging to whom be proper to the Pastor then he is but a carrier or cryer and Executioner of Lay-mens Judgment perhaps lower than the Deacon Barely to say over the words and do the action is but an outward Ministration and no act of Power at all L. But it is not the Chancellor but the Surrogate that Excommunicateth M. 1. Ask those that have been much among them how oft they have heard a Lay-Civilian say at once I admonish you I admonish you I admonish you I excommunicate you 2. Hypocrisie is but an aggravation of Sin The Lay-man decreeth the Excommunication which is the judicial act when they use a Surrogate Priest it is but as a hireling Servant to pronounce the Decree to mock the Church with a Formality 3. If indeed it be the Priest that Excommunicateth and Absolveth when no Bishop is there then they confess that the power of the Keys is not proper to a Bishop but may be validly used by a Priest. L. But what have you against swearing Obedience to the Bishops themselves supposing the Canons were materially Lawful M. III. We have nothing against a peaceable submission to them if they were proved all Usurpers For my part when I think how the High Priests were made out of a wrong line by Roman power and purchase c. in Christs time and how much he was for submission to them and a use of all that was good and lawful done by those bad unlawful intruders it resolveth me to regard bare Possession so far as our own edification and the common peace requireth But as Christ was a Nonconformist to the Pharisees vain Traditions so he was so far from swearing Obedience to these Usurpers that he oft plainly and vehemently reproveth them Many for the bonum publicum which is Suprema Lex and finis regiminis did live in quiet submission to the Usurpers of civil power here who yet would never have sworne obedience to them or justified their Usurpation That the frame of Diocesans as the only Bishops is unlawful tota specie I have so largely proved in my Treatise of Episcopacy that I must not here repeat it as long as the Diocesan party by not answering it seem to grant it I have proved 1. That this Diocesan Species destroyeth the old Species of particular Churches turning the Parishes into no Churches but parts of a Diocesan Church while they make a Bishop essential to a Church 2. That they set up a false Species instead of it viz. A Church infimae speciei which hath many score Parishes if not many hundred in it without any under-Bishop to them 3. That it deposeth the old species of Bishops and Presbyters both which were to every Church of the lowest species a Bishop with his Presbyters ejusdem ordinis if they could be had so that many score or hundred Bishops are put down on pretense of setting up Episcopacy 4. And they set up both Bishop and Presbyters of a humane unlawful sort instead of those deposed viz. Arch-bishop infimi ordinis over a thousand or hundred Carcasses of Churches and half Presbyters that have not the power of the Keys nor are of the same Order with the Bishops 5. That they deposed Christs true Church Discipline and made it as impossible as for one School-master alone to govern all the Schools in a Diocess or one Physician many hundred Hospitals or one Mayor many Hundred Corporations without
such as he may not with a good Conscience subscribe unto let him be Excommunicated ipso facto and not restored but only by the Arch-Bishop after his Repentance and publick Revocation of such his wicked Errors L. I hope you that agree with the Church in Doctrine have nothing against Publishing such an Excommunication M. I Subscribe to the Doctrinal Articles as true because I judge of them by what I take to be the Author's meaning But 1. The words in the obvious sence are divers of them liable to Exceptions 2. And some of them about Traditions Ceremonies c. are of small moment and dubious 3. And every word that is true is not an Article of the Creed nor necessary to Church Communion so that all Men must be cast out of the Church that dissent from it And this Excommunication extends to Lay-Men who are not bound to know as much as Ministers L. What is therein the Articles that any good Man can scruple M. Article 3. Learned Men doubt of Christ's going down into Hell. Art. 4. That Christ's Body in Heaven hath Flesh and Bones is contrary to two General Councils that of Nice and that before it at Const. which it confuteth And in this they agree Art. 8. That Athanasius's Creed ought to be omnino recipiendum credendum wholly received and believed when the Damning part is scrupled by many Conformists Art. 9. Bishop Ieremy Taylor was against that of Original Sin. Art. 10 Many called Arminians are against that No Power to do good Works Art. 11. Many Conformists are against the word We are accounted Righteous before God only for the merit of Christ because a subordinate Righteousness is mentioned many Score or Hundred times in Scripture Art. 12. Many think that good Works spring not necessarily from Faith but freely Art. 13. Many think that merit of Congruity may be held and that Men by natural or antecedent Works may be made meet to receive Grace which Dr. Hammond in his Annotations seemeth much to insist on under the Name of Probity Art. 14. The said Dr. Hammond and many other write for good Works over and above God's Commandments as only counselled by God and voluntarily done which this Article calleth Arrogancy and Impiety And many follow Dr. Hammond and yet subscribe this Art. 15. Is denied by them that think Infants sinless when Baptized Art. 16. Many deny falling from Grace given Art. 17. Dr. Hammond and his Followers seem to deny the absolute Election here described Art. 18. Many good Men think some are saved that live up to the Light of Nature and yet this Article curseth them that say so Art. 19. The Description of the Visible Church greatly disagreeth from that now given by many great Church-men not at all mentioning the Bishops or their Government in it And some deny that the Church of Rome hath Erred De Fide. Art. 20. The Churches Power to decree Ceremonies as not limited here is doubted of by good Christians And they see not how that is not made necessary to Salvation contrary to this Article which is made necessary to avoid Excommunication as for wicked Errour Art. 21. Too many deny what is said here against gathering Councils witout the Will of Princes and that Councils may 〈◊〉 in things pertaining to God c. Art. 23. Seems defective about calling Ministers to them that are for uninterrupted Canonical Succession c. Art. 25. Contrary to this Article some great Church-men think that Confirmation at least is a Gospel Sacrament and that it hath a visible sign ordained by God. I will proceed no further herein By this it is evident that many Subscribers are great Nonconformists and if they speak their Minds are Excommunicated ipso facto L. You make our Articles of Religion a doubtful thing what certainty then is there of the Protestant Religion M. The Protestant Religion is the Holy Scriptures older than our Form called the 39 Articles which are a laudable sound account how we understand the Scriptures but not of such perfection that all Men must be Excommunicate that say any word in them is faulty Chap. XXV Point XXII Of Publishing the Sixth Canons Excommunications L. WHat is the Sixth Canons Excommuication M. Whosoever shall affirm that the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of England by Law Established are wicked Antichristian or Superstitious or such as being commanded by lawful Authority Men who are Zealously and Godly affected may not with any good Conscience approve them use them or as occasion requireth subscribe unto them Let him be Excommunicate ipso facto and not restored till he repent and publickly revoke such his wicked Errors L. I confess it sounds harshly to lay so great stress on every Ceremony of the Church as to Excommunicate every one that Calleth any one of them unlawful What could be said more of the Ten Commandements or the Creed If it be a wicked Errour to mistake about a Ceremony or to account a Cope or a Pair of Organs unlawful the Lord have Mercy on us what a Case are we all in by wicked Errours What shall my poor Country Neighbours and Tenants do that few of them understand one half the Creed M. Yet 1. The Articles and our Ordination-Vow oblige us to believe and teach that nothing is necessary to Salvation but what is contained in the Scripture or certainly proved by it And that General Councils and all Men are fallible And sure they are very near to Infallibility who are so Infallible about every Rite and Ceremony that they dare bind all the Land to justifie or notblame them on pain of ipso facto Excommunication 2. Yet Grotius and Bishop Taylor that justifie some Lying are Men that deserve Praise with them and in truth And Oh! how many Thousands live quietly in their Communion who err in greater Matters than a Ceremony 3. And judge by what I have said of the Symbolical Crossing in Baptism Godfathers c. whether it be a wicked Errour deserving Excommunication and Ruine to charge any one of their Rites with Sin. 4. Was it not enough to cast us out of Ministry and Maintenance for blaming a Ceremony but they must cast us out of the Church what is Pharisaical if this be not Chap. XXV Point XXIII Of Publishing the Seventh Canons Excommunications M. THe Seventh Canon is Whosoever shall hereafter affirm that the Government of the Church of England under His Majesty by Arch-bishops Bishops Deans Arch-deacons and THE REST THAT BEAR OFFICE in the same is Antichristian or repugnant to the Word of God Let him be Excommunicate ipso facto and so continue till he repent and publickly revoke such his wicked Errors L. Mark here that And connexeth all these Offices it is not OR disjunctively So that you fall not under this Canon if you condemn every Church Office save one if you condemn not all M. That 's a meer violent unjust exposition The Government is the thing named as consisting of many
Offices as a Body of many Members or a Chain of many Links as we say Bonum est ex Causis integris And he that wounds any one Member wounds the Man and he that breaketh one Link breaketh the Chain And he that accuseth any one part of the Government accuseth the Government thereby And there is no doubt in the World but they so intended that made this Canon L. And what have you against your Obedience to this M. You may easily know what by what is already said 1. I have fully proved as aforesaid in my Treatise of Episcopacy that if Episcopacy were never so certainly of Divine Institution this Form of Diocesan Prelacy deposeth quantum in se the old Church Form the old Episcopacy the old Presbytery and almost all true Discipline and in stead of each sets up that which is repugnant to the Word of God. And must we all confederate to maintain this Church Corruption and all agree to renounce Reformation or any Conviction tending to Repentance 2. I have told you what it is for Lay-men and Courts to arrogate the Decretive Power of the Church Keys and for single Priests and Officials to rule all the Clergy and People as under them And for our Prelate to undertake to be the sole Bishop over many Hundred Clergy And then to Govern per alios in a secular manner even by Lay-men that do that in his Name which he knows not of and this in order to Gaols and Ruine If all this be agreeable to God's Word what is contrary to it 3. I have told you what it is to make every Church Officer so necessary as that it should be Excommunication to say Any one of them is sinful when as Learned good Men as most the World hath have written to prove almost all of them sinful corrupt Inventions of Arrogance and that it 's far worse for Men to presume to make new Forms and Offices of Church Government than new Ceremonies 4. The Parliament of England condemned the Oath called the caetera Oath in the Canon of 1640. And the late long Parliament of 1662. never restored it nor any since And was it not formed according to this Canon What 's c. but And the rest that bear Office therein reliquos ad ejusdem gubernaculum constitutos For my part tho' I have oft read over Cousins Tables and the Canons I do not yet know and remember all the Church Governing Courts and Offices How many there be besides the Bishop the Chancellors Court the Arches the Prerogative Court the Arch-deacons Commissaries Officials Surrogates I know not And are every one of these become as necessary to be taken for lawful as the twelve Apostles or the Articles of our Creed For my part I am far from thinking that those Bishops and Doctors should be Excommunicated or Damned who by Faction are drawn to deny the Ministry and Churches that have not Prelatical Ordination and Government and shall all be condemned that think as ill of Civilians Excommunicatings 5. I have told you what it is for every Lord Knight and Gentleman that doth but say that any of these Church Governing Offices are against the Word of God to be ipso facto an Excommunicate man. And for the people to be put to question whether they may chuse them for Parliament men and whether they may sit in Parliament while Excommunicate L. This Canon with the three or four adjoining make me begin to think hardlier of the Canoneers than I thought I should ever have done as to their honesty M. I would not have you think too hardly of them but only to think truly of Nonconformity Chap. XXVII Point XXIV Of Publishing the 8th Canons Excommunications L. VVHat is the Eighth Canon and its Excommunication M. Whoever shall hereafter affirm or teach that the Form and Manner of Making and Consecrating Bishops Priests or Deacons containeth ANY THING in it that is repugnant to the Word of God Let them be Excommunicated ipso facto and not to be restored until he repent and publickly revoke such his wicked Errors L. What have you against the Execution of this M. A great deal In sum it is unrighteous oppressing and dividing to cast out all Persons from the Church of Christ who think that nothing is faulty in the Book of Ordination or in their Principles or Practice there expressed And we dare not curse those that Christ doth bless should we do this for a Benefice in what should we differ from the sin of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousness whose iniquity and madness his Ass rebuked saith St. Peter 2 Pet. 2. 15. Yea shall we not be far worse than he that for an House full of Silver and Gold could not go beyond the Word of the Lord and did not curse but bless Gods people And it is not proud malignant Tongues reviling Gods Servants and calling their Opinions wicked Errors that will make Christ disown his Members or will warrant Balaam or us to curse them O how unlike is this to the Spirit and Ministry of Christ for Prelates and Priests to curse and cast out the Children of God for saying that they go against his Law. L. But what is amiss in the Book of Ordination M. I am anon to tell you that But if there were nothing amiss in it yet the belief of its innocency is not necessary to Salvation L. But if every man have leave to accuse the Orders of the Church what Order can be maintained M. 1. Leave modestly to express dissent in a doubtful case may stand with Order 2. If men do it disorderly there be other Penalties besides ipso facto Excommunication Every breach of the peace is not Rebellion nor punisht with Death But I 'll tell you briefly what may occasion good men to say that their Ordinations are sinful 1. In that they thereby obtrude Pastors on the Churches upon the bare choice of a Patron without or against the peoples wills 2. In that they professedly ordain such as their Canon forbids to Preach or Expound any Doctrine 3. In that they determine that Bishops Priests and Deacons are three distinct Orders which yet is an undetermined Controversie among even the Learnedst Papists And must we damn and cut off men for that which the very Papists leave at liberty 4. In that they ordain men to an Office which Scripture maketh no mention of Dr. Hammond saith that it cannot be proved that there were any Presbyters subject to Bishops in Scripture times nor any but Bishops None that had not power of Ordination and the Keys nor any Bishops of a multitude of Churches and Presbyters both which are here ordained 5. In that they Swear Obedience to Arch-bishops and their Sees and make Priests Covenant Obedience to their Ordinaries as aforesaid If a godly man do as Bucer did to King Edward the Sixth as you may see in his Scripta Anglic. and desire some of these faults to be amended doth he deserve
to dispute all such matters with you I have fully answered it in my Catechisme on the Ninth Commandment Briefly this may satisfie you No ones private good must be sought by a means that would destroy all Humane Trust and Converse But if you give men leave to lye when they think it needful or harmless it will destroy all Humane Trust and Converse For almost all will think their lyes are profitable And we have had Learned Moderate Conformists that have trusted to this Argument and openly defended it If Knaves would take my Purse I may defend my self with my Hands Ergo If they would deprive me of my Maintenance and Ministry I may defend my self with my Tongue L. And how do you answer them M. That no man must defend himself by means which will do more hurt than his Ministry or Life is worth But to let men loose so to lying is such and more forbidden of God than â—anddefence And sin ever doth more hurt than good VI. We may suppose also that Perjury is unlawful and would much more destroy all Mutual Trust and consequently Humane Converse VII And we may suppose that he that either commandeth or perswadeth others to be prejured or that openly justifieth their perjury by telling them that it is no perjury or no sin is guilty of their perjury VIII And we suppose that to draw whole Churches and Kingdoms into perjury by force perswasion example or justification of it and telling them that they need not repent of it is one of the hainousest sins that man can commit except making it the very Mark or Stigma without which none may be Magistrates Ministers or Freemen L. No one I hope will deny any of this M. IX We presuppose that all Vows Oaths Covenants Professions imposed by Superiours must be taken in that sence in which they any way expound them without forcing them either by a laxe or an over-rigid interpretation But if they do not otherwise expound them they must be taken in the sence as those words are commonly used and understood by such as treat of the subject which they belong to L. You have so cautelously exprest it that I cannot contradict you M. I must not be tedious in writing the same things oft If any doubt whether our expositions of Oaths and Subscriptions be not over-strict or rigid I pray read the words of Dr. Sanderson cited by me in the end of my first Plea for Peace and know that we stand to his rules of exposition X. We may suppose that seeing repenting and amending is the condition of forgiveness to make a Covenant in any sin that we will never repent and amend is so heinous a crime as is next to the renouncing of Pardon and Salvation And in National guilt and danger deliberately to Covenant that we will never endeavour any amendment of the Nations sin is next to begging Gods Curse on the Land e. g. If a man were a Fornicator and Perjured and the Land commonly guilty of the same he that would make a Bargain or Covenant and that deliberately that he will never amend nor ever endeavour to amend the Land or any other What would you think of that mans case L. What should I think but that he is a Monster and miserable Wretch But what 's that to us I hope there are none such in England that worse than Witches would sell themselves and the Nation to the Devil M. I pray over-run me not in the application I do but tell you what I suppose we are agreed in I shall tell you after why I speak it XI I also suppose that bare Possession proveth not a Bishop or Pastors right to the place and power which he claimeth Nor is any disseized of his right by being disseized of separable accidents L. That 's true But what use you 'l make of it I know not M. XII Lastly I must desire you to remember that as we profess to stick at nothing but sin against God and not things indifferent as we are slandered so if but one of all the imposed Acts of Conformity be certainly sinful and if but one of all the Arguments which I shall use do prove it so not only the two thousand that were ejected were bound to be Nonconformists but also all the English Ministry and the Act of Uniformity if Conformity be sin did vertually though not actually turn out all the Clergy at once because all were bound rather to resign than sin L. The truer and more dreadful the consequence is the hardlyer will I believe the antecedent till I needs must M. You cannot expect that we affirm it For 1. We know how cautelous we must be in meddling with the case of other men Let them judge themselves who are called to it 2. And I told you before what the Law threatens and the Canons against them that affirm any of the impositions to be sinful much more that shall so deeply accuse the Laws 3. But sure no Law or Reason forbiddeth men to fear sinning against God themselves nor to tell the World what it is that they fear and why they dare not do it without accusing any other CHAP. II. What our Nonconformity is not M. BEfore I tell you wherein our Nonconformity doth consist I must tell you wherein it doth not consist to avoid the false reports that commonly go abroad against us And therefore I must premise that I pretend not to tell you the opinion of every odd person that Conformeth not no more than you justifie all that Conform in all their opinions I think few doubt not but that some Atheists Sadducees Infidels Hobbists Sociâ—ians if not Papists outwardly Conform Yet we charge not their errours on the Church and so on the other side But those that were called by the King and one another 1660 and 1661 to treat of Concord and that Assembled at Sion Colledge and elsewhere about it did openly make known their minds And I think they meddled not against any of these things following by any accusation of them as sinful I. They never denyed the Lawfulness of a form of Prayer or a Liturgy Though some falsly so accuse them II. They denyed not the soundness of the matter of Prayer contained in the form of the English Liturgy in the main They though it a good Book and the making of it a great Reformation and honoured the excellent men that made it but they thought it not such as could not or should not in any thing be amended or that all might say was without fault III. They thought not the Imposition of it a reason sufficient to prove it unlawful for them to use it were there no more IV. They offered to use it when amended and if that could not be had they told you in their Reply their purpose rather to Communicate in the use of it than not at all and to have used all the lawful part themselves if they might be suffered in their publick places and
Ministry on such terms V. They never accused the use of Holy dayes as dayes of Thanksgiving to God for giving such Holy Apostles to the Church and whose memory we honourable commemorate VI. They never accused our Kneeling at the Lords Supper as unlawful but only the casting Godly persons from Communion for not using it when they take it to be sin About the Kneeling the old Nonconformists were not of one mind some thought that every objectum motivum of Adoration was forbidden that was a Creature But others said that every Creature in the World may be such an object Our Meat is objectum motivum when we pray for a Blessing on it If I see the Relicts or Picture of a Friend that I wronged while he was alive I may well be moved by it to beg pardon of God. All his works must move me to adore and praise him But we may not make any Image objectum terminativum or ad quod to which we direct our Divine Worship as a Medium of our sending it to God. The only great difficulty about this is from the argument of scandalous hardening the Papists that live among us Though indeed our Doctrine avoideth that scandal VII They never accused the Ceremony of laying the hand on the Book and kissing it in taking an Oath VIII They never spake against the Ring in Marriage IX They meddled not with the Surplice Tippet Hood Rochet Cope but only the casting men out of the Ministry that dare not use them thinking them unlawful Though we justifie them not X. They accused not all significant use of the Cross but only that in Baptism it seemed to have all or most of the nature of a Humane Sacrament of the Covenant of Grace as it is expounded in the Liturgy and Canon XI They spake not against Episcopacy as it is a presidency among and over Presbyters differing in Degree and not in Office called ORDER and that in a Church of the lowest Species XII They opposed not Arch-Bishops as over many such Churches and Bishops nor Diocesans as Arch-Bishops ruling but by Gods Word XIII They said nothing against Metropolitans Patriarchs Lay-Chancellors Commissaries Officials Surrogates Archdeacons c. as Officers of the King appointed to do nothing besides the Sacred Ministry if they be Clergy-men but what belongs to Magistracy XIV They said nothing against any promise of Obedience to them only in the capacities and in the exercise of the power forementioned XV. Much less did they ever oppose or question Swearing to the King according to the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy And I with divers others also being for some ends entered as his Chaplains in Ordinary took also that Oath of Fidelity which the Kings Houshold Servants take XVI We never were for any dishonouring of Kings by publick Excommunications much les by Subjects or Forreigners whom Kings never choose to be their Pastors but only in case of necessity for such a denyal of Sacramental Communion to them as Bishop Andrews in Fortura Torâ— and Bishop Bilson plead for which is but to forbear our selves a sinful act XVII We never pleaded for any Elders or Chancellors power of the Keys who are but Lay-men XVIII We never held that Magistrates are bound to add their force by the Sword to the censures of the Church as such and to punish men more because the Church hath by Excommunication cast them out or because they are not reconciled XIX We never thought that things indifferent do become unlawful to us because the Magistrate commandeth them XX. We never held that the Scripture is a particular Rule commanding every accident and circumstance about Gods Worship but only a general Rule requiring all to be done in Love and Peace and to edification and decently c. in those circumstances which must be some way determined and God hath left to variable Humane determination Such as are Time Place Utensils Translations Sections Metres Tunes Methods and Words in Preaching and Prayer Habit Gesture and many such XXI We never held it unlawful to do one of these actions though it were by mistake unlawfully commanded e. g. If the Rulers prescribe a Time Place Metre Tune c. unfit if it be not so bad as to overthrow the ends and use of the Worship the fault of the Commander will not disoblige us from the duty of obeying And whereas some argue that no man hath authority to sin ergo we are not bound to obey that which is no act of authority I answer Rulers have authority to command that which is good though not in a faulty manner and when we cannot do the good without the faulty manner it is their fault and not ours e. g. If an inconvenient Time Place Text Tune c. be chosen the Union and Concord which is held by agreeing in those Modes is necessary He that will not joyn in them cannot joyn in the Worship So that we obey the Ruler or Guide as a determiner of the means of Concord which is necessary and not sub ratione erroris as misdetermining though in that which is misdetermined If a Master bid his Servant go at an unseasonable time about his work it 's his duty to go at that time We never pray without some fault in the manner and yet must rather do it so than not at all The mistaken Ruler bids us not sin It 's his sin to choose a mis-circumstance and it is not his own action that he bids us do but ours And it s to us a lawful circumstance because necessary to Concord and commanded though mistakingly XXII We never held it unlawful to joyn with a Church or Minister that hath some faults both Personal and in their acts of Worship as if all that joyned were guilty of all the faults there committed No not though we knew before hand that some false Doctrine would be uttered or fault committed Else we must separate from all the world and all from us XXIII We never thought it a duty to separate from every Church that culpably neglecteth Discipline and hath open wicked men therein If we be not guilty of it and cannot lawfully live in the Communion of a more obedient reformed Church XXIV We never judged needless affected singularity a duty but judge it best in lawful things for Concord sake to Conform to the custom of the Churches where we live or come XXV Though we think not that men may command us to destroy our Neighbours Souls by scandal yet when disobedience to a Rulers Law is like to do more hurt than the scandal taken at it comes to we are for avoiding the greater hurt XXVI We never separated from any tolerable Parish Ministers or Churches as if they were no true Ministers or Churches nor perswaded any so to do nor to take the Communion of such Churches for unlawful to us either occasionally or constantly when we can have no better without more hurt than benefit to our selves and others XXVII We hold
that the Form and Manner of Making and Consecrating Bishops Priests or Deacons containeth any thing in it that is repugnant to the word of God. Though it assert that the Bishops and Priests are distinct Orders which even in K. Aelfrick's days the Church of England denyed XXV We must publish them Excommunicate who affirm that the Nonconformists may truly take the name of another Church c. and that any assemblies of Subjects not allowed by Law are true and Lawful Churches XXVI No Minister must wittingly administer the Sacrament to any but such as Kneel nor to any of the foresaid depravers of the Liturgy Ceremonies Orders of the Church c. Can. 27. XXVII None of other Parishes are often to be admitted to Communion XXVIII All Ministers that repent of Conforming must be suspended excommunicate and deposed at last Can. 38. XXIX We must give the Sacrament to none that go for it from unpreaching Ministers but must send them home Can. 57. Nor must Baptize their Children XXX Ministers must not be suffered that wear not the Surplice Can. 58. XXXI No Minister must refuse or delay to Christen any Child that 's brought to the Church to him on Sundays or Holydays to be Christened without exception of Atheists or Infidels Children Can. 68. XXXII No Minister may keep any Fast in publick or at private Houses or be present at any on what necessity soever without the Bishops License for it under Hand and Seal or the Laws appointment XXXIII We must if commanded publish all Excommunicate that affirm that the Sacred Synod is not the true Church of England by representation or that deprave it as a faction c. XXXIV No man was to be ordained or suffered in the Ministry for twenty years that did not subscribe thus I do declare that I do hold that there lies no obligation on me or on any other person from the Oath commonly called the Solemn League and Covenant to endeavour any change or alteration of Government in Church or State. XXXV All Nonconformists must swear that they will never endeavour any alteration of the Church Government or else be banished five miles from Corporations and all places where ever they preached since the Act of Oblivion XXXVI All Ministers must subscribe and Nonconformists swear that they abhor the Trayterous position of taking Arms by the Kings Authority against those that are Commissioned by him XXXVII We must assent and consent to the damnatory sentence in the Creed called Athanasius's XXXVIII Every Minister consenteth to say the Morning and Evening Service every day in the year not being lett by sickness or other urgent cause XXXIX Ministers must concur to force the unwilling Parishioners to the Sacrament or else to Excommunicate and ruine them XL. If we dare not Conform for fear of sin we must forsake our Ministry to which we are Ordained and Vowed and give over Preaching the Gospel what ever need there be and must also remove our dwelling from all places aforesaid These are the parts of Ministers Conformity Lay Mens Conformity is as followeth I. They must trust their Souls with the Pastoral oversight of those and only those as their fixed Pastors whom Patrons will choose for them and Bishops institute Though the Conformists accuse many Patrons of such hainous sins as speaketh them unfit for so strange a trust besides those that are Papists and Bishops say they have not power to keep out the unfit II. They are not only hereby deprived of the exercise of Self-Government for the saving of their own Souls but of due Family Government for the safety of Wife and Children and Servants and must not bid them choose better Pastors III. They are forced to forbear Communion with all Nonconformists and to separate from all others besides Conformists though they account this Schismatical separation IV. When God commandeth them If thy Brother trespass against thee tell him his fault between thee and him if he hear not tell the Church c. And with Drunkards Railers Fornicators c. not to eat They are forced to have Communion with Parishes where no such Discipline is exercised nor can they perform any such duty and to lose all the benefit of this Christian Order and Discipline none being so much cast out as Conscionable Dissenters V. Conscionable care to obey Gods Law is greatly discouraged and made a dangerous thing while it must be mens utter ruine to deny Conformity even in a Ceremony to men when it 's done for fear of sinning against God. VI. They are to be deprived of Baptism and Christendom for their Children if they dare not use the foresaid way of God-Fathers as described VII They are also to be unchristened if thinking our Crossing is used as an unlawful Humane Sacrament they dare not receive it as a dedicating Badge of Christianity VIII If they think Kneeling at receiving the Sacrament an unlawful hardening the Papists they are denyed Communion IX If any dissent but from Confirmation Organs Kneeling at the Rails taking a Reader or unfit man for their Pastor they must not be received to Communion by a Conformist in another Parish X. All the Land is engaged Ministers Vestries Corporations and Militia by Oaths or Covenant never to endeavour any alteration of Government in the Church XI They are all engaged to abhor the position as trayterous of taking Armes by the Kings Authority against any Commissioned by him in pursuit of such Commission XII All Corporation Government and Trust is confined to them that declare that there is no obligation on them or any other from the solemn Covenant or Vow not excepting so much as to oppose Schism Popery or Prophaneness to defend the King or repent of sin though these be Vowed I have now told you what Conformity is in Ministers and People CHAP. V. I. Of Re-Ordination L. YOV have named a great number But I doubt whether all these are imposed and in many of them I see no harm M. I told you that if any one of them imposed be sinful Nonconformity is a duty which all the Ministers in England were bound to L. What sin can you find in Re-Ordination M. I must first state the Controversie before I argue it 1. The word Ordination may signifie either the first Dedication and Ordination to the Ministerial Office as such by which a man is separated from the Laity to Gods Ministry Or else a Mission on some particular Ministerial work as Paul and Barnabas were sent abroad Acts 11. Or a Minister may be sent to America c. Or else a fixed appointment to some one particular Church or Flock which is done here by Presentation Institution and Induction It is neither of the two last that we speak against They may be often done But it s only the first 2. The word Ordination may signifie 1. That Moral action by which a man is made a Minister of Christ which is his solemn Contract with Christ exprest by his Consent and by
any School-master but an Usher or Monitor or any Physitian or any Mayor or Justice under him 6. That they have set up a false humane Discipline before described instead of Christ's which they have taken down And all this we dare not justifie by a confederacy by Oath IV. And we think that the fourth thing which we stick at needs no other reason suppose the species of Diocesans were of God's appointment and only the numerical Bishops usurpers we can submit and live peaceably but we cannot swear obedience to them They plead more than we for the power of ancient Councils and Canons I have elsewhere fully proved as Paul of Venice hath done and Mr. Clarkson and Dr. Burnet and many others that many great Councils nullified the Episcopacy of all that came in without the election or consent of the Clergy and Flocks And we our selves cannot conceive how any man can be the Pastor of those that consent not though we can easily conceive that Dissenters may oft be obliged to consent when they do not so may a Son or Daughter be obliged to obey their Parents in consenting to Marry such as Parents choose for them when yet it is no marriage till that consent How few in a Diocese ever know of the Bishops Election till it's past and how few consent I need not tell We can submit to these but not swear Allegiance to them V. And in all the foresaid cases we have another disswasive 1. It is so much of the King's Prerogative that all Subjects must swear Allegiance and Fidelity to him that in almost all Nations it hath been thought dangerous to make the Subjects also swear obedience to every Justice or inferior Officer lest it should make them too like Kings 2. Lest the Subjects should be entangled between their Oath to the King and their Oaths to all these Officers in case of the Officers contradiction to the King 's 3. Lest so many Oaths should make that Government a snare to the conscientious which should be for their ease and safety 4. Lest so much swearing make Oaths contemptible and bring in perjury and endanger the King who should by our Oaths be secured 2. And I have elsewhere named many Councils and Canons which prohibit Bishops this practice of making the Clergy swear fidelity to them and have condemned it as of dangerous consequence And they that are for Councils should not engage us causelesly against them 3. The present Impositions greatly stop us till we better know what it is that we must do We have cause to make a stand when we are all sworn never to endeavour any alteration of the Government of the State which we readily obey and yet seem to be called to do that which we are told by some is an alteration of it That is the making of our present species of Archbishops Bishops Deans Archdeacons yea Chancellors Officials Commissaries c. as unchangeable a part of the Government as Monarchy it self is and so disabling the King to make any alteration in them For set all this together and consider 1. All the Clergy is bound or sworn to obey both Bishops and every Ordinary 2. The Canon ipso facto Excommunicates every man that affirmeth that the Church Government under his Majesty by Archbishops Bishops Deans Archdeacons and THE REST THAT BEAR OFFICE in the same is repugnant to the word of God so that all the Lords and Gentlemen in England that have affirmed that the Government by the Keys as used by Diocesans over hundreds of Churches or by Archdeacons Lay Chancellors c. is repugnant to God's word being already ipso facto Excommunicate how far they are capable of being Parliament-men I know not but I suppose if in Parliament they shall affirm any such repugnancy they are Excommunicate and without the Act of King and Parliament no alteration can be made 3. And now to fix them all the Kingdom is sworn never to endeavour any alteration in the Church Government viz. In the Corporation Act the Militia Act the Vestry Act the Oxford swearing Act after the Act of Vniformity And is not every Chancellor or Archdeacon or Bishop now made as immutable necessary a part of the Kingdom as the King L. You speak ignorantly for want of acquaintance with the Law Do you think King and Parliament oblige themselves It is only particular subjects out of Parliament that they oblige M. I. But when the Parliament is dissolved are they not all particular subjects save the King. And are they not all then hereby bound And do you think that it was the meaning of the Act that they who swear never to endeavour alteration may yet endeavour it if they be chosen Parliament men I will manifestly disprove it All these Oaths do joyn the Government of Church and State together Yea and put the Church-Government first as if it had the preeminence But it was never the meaning of the Oath that the Parliament may endeavour to alter Monarchy which is the State-Government Ergo it meant not that they may endeavour to alter Prelacy or Church-Government II. But suppose it be as you say They that know the present thing called the Church of England know that their Writers openly maintain that the Obligation of the Canons depends not on the Parliament save only as to the forceable execution of them but on the authority of the Church as a Society empowred by Christ And therefore that King or Parliaments at least may be Excommunicated by them as well as others All are Excommunicate men that do but call their Government sinful CHAP. VII II. Of the restraint of Ordained Ministers from Preaching and expounding any Scripture or Matter or Doctrine Can. 49. L. WHat is it that you have against Conformity in this M. I. That men are at once made Christ's Ministers and forbid to exercise that which they are Ordained to II. That we are laid under the hainous guilt of breaking our Vow when they have engaged us to make it and of betraying mens Souls by omitting a vowed duty 3. That we are forbidden that which is the duty of every Lay Christian that is able as if they would suppress Religion and Charity it self L. But you do not swear or subscribe to this Canon M. 1. But we are bound by them to obey this Canon for it is the Law of the whole Church of England 2. I have shewed you that swearing obedience to them must mean obeying their Laws which are far more of weight than particular mandates L. But as long as you may have Licenses how doth this put you on any sin of omission or commission M. Both their words and their deeds tell us that they Ordain more than they Licence to Preach or Expound any Doctrine And is it no sinful omission think you for all the rest to forbear all this 2. And many were Ordained heretofore who by the new Act of Uniformity are denyed Licenses without new Professions and Covenants
take on them to be necessary interpreters of its great difficulties If such men forbear that expounding which they forbid others till they will do it better the loss will be the less Scripture speaketh plainlier than this 2. But who giveth this exposition To expound the Law by a common obligatory Exposition is proper to the Law-makers He that maketh the words maketh not a Law if he make not the sense Judges make not the sense but decide particular Cases by it as they understand it The Canons are made by the Convocation which he that denyeth to be the Representative Church of England is Excommunicate The Pulpit Preachers nor the particular Bishops are not the Convocation and therefore have not power to expound their Canons by any Common obligatory exposition much less contrary to the express words Which way most of the Clergy went under Bishop Parker Grindal and Abbot is well known And yet now they are so far from being taken for the Expositors of the Churches sense that they are openly scorned as popular fautorer of Puritans and those of their mind called Grindalizers II. But it is the second that is the Trojan horse whose name is Legion I mean that hath many more evils in the belly of it viz. that we must profess that the three Books Articles Liturgy and Ordination are so utterly faultless that there is nothing in them Contrary to the word of God and that we Assent and Consent to all contained and prescribed in and by them L. What have you against this what is there in it that is contrary to God's word M. God's word is perfect and forbids the least faulty errour or defect If we had never seen the Book we know that men made it and that every one that made it had ignorance error and sin and can a perfect faultless volumn be made by such faulty men Operari sequitur esse They renounce all pretensions to Infallibility in the Articles of Religion L. You interpret the words rigorously By nothing contrary they meâ—n nothing so contrary as that one may not use the Books M. If by nothing they mean not nothing and if by contrary they mean not contrary we will better know what they mean before we subscribe else you may make it lawful to subscribe to any thing in the world and say that the Imposers mean better than they speak L. And Assent and Consent is expresly confined to the use M. 1. I shall prove that that is not true 2. That if it were true it no whit amends the matter nor maketh it lawful to us I. It is not true For. 1. The words of the declaration are as expresly universal as man can speak And the foregoing words to the use do speak but deâ—fine and the words of the Declaration de mediis And all Lawyers agree that when the title of a Law expresseth the End that limiteth not the sense of the words of the Law because the Means may be larger than the End. As the Oxford Act of Confinement is in the title to keep Nonconformists from Corporations And yet Lawyers resolve that it extendeth also to Conformists if one of them should but once preach in a Conventicle The Parliament and Prelates thought that the way to secure the Vse was to oblige them to Assent and Consent to all in the Book contained and prescribed 1. Therefore they ty all to declare in that same form of words and to add no other least they should make any exposition that limits them 2. And the word Assent signifieth an Act of the understanding which must have Truth for its object 3. And it is after exprest by the word Approbation whereas a man may use that which he doth not approve of 2. Oaths Covenants and Professions must be taken in the most usual proper sense unless another be exprest to be the Imposers meaning which is not here done and the words are most universal and without exception 3. And to put all out of doubt the Parliament expounded themselves 1. At the making of the Act this was debated and reasons given against the limited expressions which prevailed 2. Since then a new Act against Conventicles being made it was moved in the Lords House that seeing Non-conformists were thus far forbidden private worship they should be so far invited to Conformity as that a Proviso might be added to this Act that the Declaration in the Act of Uniformity should be understood to oblige men but to the Vse of the things required and the Commons rejecting that Proviso it came to a debate or conference between the two Houses where the Commons gave their reasons against that sense and proviso In which the Lords acquiesc't Though I was not present the Parliament-men that were reported this and I never met with man that contradicted it or questioned the truth of it II. But if it were otherwise it were to us never the better For 1. It were an ignorant reproach of the Church of England to say that they have put any thing in their Liturgy which is of no use This will Include every syllable They themselves tell you in their Prefaces what use the very Calender and every other part are of The use of the Articles of Faith and Doctrines is our understanding assent and belief of them in order to Love and Practice The use of the orders in the Rubrick is to oblige us to obedient practice and so of all the rest And to Assent approve and Consent to every thing contained and prescribed practically even to the use of them is more than a bare speculative assent L. Wherein lyeth the sin of such a Declaration M. 1. In general it is incredible as I said before in consideration of the matter and the Authors together The Book of Articles Liturgie and Ordination are a big Volumn and contain great variety of matter and that high and mysterious The Authors were every one of them men of imperfection that had ignorance error and sin And operation exceedeth not power Who dare say that any Sermon or Prayer that ever he maketh hath nothing in it but what he may assent and consent to Much less so great a Book 2. The Articles which must be subscribed as faultless say Art. 15. Christ alone is without sin But all we the rest though baptized and born again in Christ yet offend in many things and if we say that we have no sin we deceive our selves and the truth is not in us And Art. 21. General Councils For as much they be an Assembly of men whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God they may err and sometimes have erred even in things pertaining to God And are our Convocation more infallible than General Councils The Church must be exemplary in humility and is it humility to say we Bishops and Priests having written three Books he shall not preach Christ's Gospel that will not declare that there is not a word in them that is
save thousands meerly for water and words and comdemn thousands that had not the opportunity of these And it is certain that Christians never dream'd of this absurd opinion or else godly Emperours would have forced Baptism on the children of all their Heathen Subjects and would where their conquering Armies came in Charity have catcht up their children and baptized them And Bishops and Doctors would have taught and intreated them so to do To make meer baptising alone the condition of Infant salvation is to lay Heaven on such a ceremony quite out of the Infants power as would but tempt the rational Infidels to deride Christianity No sober men lay a childs Estate or Life on such a thing 2. If there must be some condition of Right to Baptism antecedent to it what is it 1. It is not actual faith in that Infant that understands not 2. It must then be some others act or nothing If anothers whose should it be so likely as the parents from whom the Children have their essence Whom nature hath taught to take them as almost parts of themselves and so hath the custom of all Nations and who are obliged above all other to provide for them and whose will in their Infancy disposeth of them till they come to have a rational will of their own in act And Scripture from end to end confirmeth this But besides this you know not whither to look for a title-conditione unless to some Pro-parent whose the child is upon the Parents Death or Resignation For 1. If you say it is the Faith of the Church as some that giveth the Child Title what Church mean you The Universal or National or Diocesan or Parochial And how doth the Church give right to Pardon and Life to Infidels Children If it be meerly volendo as if Heaven were at their Will why do they not sit at home and make a deed of Gift of Heaven to the Infants at the Antipodes and of all the World If it be by baptizing them I shewed before that Baptism meerly as such doth it not And if it be the Will of the Baptizer they must mean the Priest Deacon or another And to say that these are the Terms of Infant Title to Baptism and Salvation that if the Priests will they shall be baptized and saved or else not seemeth a New Gospel 2. But it seems with us it is the God-fathers that give them Title else the Church could save them when they will without Godfathers And if so where is the proof of it in Scripture or Reason that God will accept and save Infants because a meer Neighbour will bring them to be baptized and promiseth to bring them up well if they live It is supposed that these Sponsors own not the Children and how come they then to have the power to be their Representatives and to dispose of their Souls L. But any Beggars Child hath right to be taken into your house if you are so Charitable as to do it And so much right to Baptism and Salvation by it Christ hath given to all M. Where is that deed of Gift to be found It is not a Forgery He hath made a Covenant to the Faithful and their Seed But where hath he said I will save all Infidels Children if any Priest or Christian will but Baptize them He that said Go to the high-wayes and hedges and compel them to come in excepted the Refusers and required none but perswading compulsion And its Parents that have power of their Children He that can believe to day that God hath made a Gift of Salvation to all Infants that any body will baptize may easily believe to morrow that he will not cast away the rest meerly because no Carrier will bring them in or because no body will wash them and say over them the words of Baptisme God hath made even in the Second Commandment and in Exodus 34. when he proclaimed his name and nature so great a difference between the Seed of the Godly and the Wicked that we dare not consent to the confounding of them nor with the Anabaptists unthankfully to deny this Mercy nor to deny or corrupt Pauls plain assertion Else were your Children unclean but now are they holy L. III. What mean you by your third Exception M. I have told you while I opened the former They personate the Child without Authority And it is a great doubt whether the Covenant and Baptisme were not a meer Nullity did not Parents besides the Laws of Conformity some way signifie their own Agency therein If any Neighbour should make a Covenant in the name of your Child binding him at Age to Marry an Heiress who hath a Lordship to her Portion would this either oblige your Son or give him any present right to her or her Estate L. If the Donor or person empowered Consent it giveth a conditional right which becometh Actual when he marrieth her and so here if God consent its so far valid M. God hath given Christ and Life conditionally to all before they believe or are baptized But all must not therefore be baptized This is not Actual Right and so such Infants have no right by this Rule till they believe in Christ. But Baptisme is an actual Marriage with Christ and its a Mockery where neither Party doth consent Christ doth not consent for he hath made no Promise but to the faithful and their Seed Let them that affirm more show it The Infant doth not consent having no Will of his own in Act and the thing being done by one that had no power to personate or oblige him And he may say It was no act of mine personally or Legally L. Any one may accept a gift for another and bind him to gratitude which if he refuse he forfeits it M. If the Donor give it on those Terms it 's true And if you can prove that God hath made his Covenant Gift of Pardon and Salvation to all the Seed of Infidels Atheists and Wicked Men on Condition that any body will but Accept it in their names at present and bind them to accept it at Age it will then I confess prove a valid act of Charity And I see not but why some good man should say Lord I accept of Christ and Salvation for all the Infants on Earth and I bind them to accept it when they come to Age and I hope the meer want of washing shall not deprive them of that which I have power to accept for them I never heard of valid contracts made for Infants by any one that will but pretend to personate them L. Thus you would make rebaptizing necessary if such Baptism be a nullity M. 1. Not to any whose Parents though besides the Laws of Conformity own their agency and dedicating their own child to Christ which I hope is the case of most custom through God's mercy teacheth them better than the Canons and Common-Prayer-Book 2. And I think not to any other whose Parents
said at the Grave than in the Pulpit L. But some say none of those words signifie the persons Salvation but his removal hence M. Read them If those do not none do L. But some say that by Excommunicate is meant Excommunicable or such as ought to be Excommunicate and then what more can you desire M. Their saying is a presumptuous contradiction to that which they consent to what reason have they for it Is Excommunicate and Excommunicable all one Or may they put what sense they list on Laws If they do but tell the Bishops this much they will make them know that they are not made Judges of who is Excommunicable When I have craved but the alteration of that word they answered me with contempt that so every Priest or Curate should have the power of damning whom he please But sure Siâ—encing our judgment of a man is not damning him But what place is there for any doubt when the Book nameth the three sorts excepted exceptio firmat regulam in non exceptis Yea the express exposition in the Canon â—8 is If he shall refuse to Christen the one or bury the other that is Any brought except the party deceased were Denounced Excommunicate Majori Excommunicatione for some grievous and notorious Crime and no man able to testifie of his repentance he shall be Suspended by the Bishop of the Diocese from his ministry by the space of three months And alas how many thousand Infidels Hobbists Sadducees Hereticks Adulterers Thieves Perjured Scorners at godliness c. are among us unexcommunicated If all in England be saved except the Unbaptized Excommunicate and Self-murtherers which de singulis one by one must be said of all the rest either Scripture and Pulpits are much mistaken or else we that live among men are in a dream and our senses are all deceived CHAP. XVII Point XIV Of Consenting to Read the Apocrypha L. WHat harm is there in reading the Apocrypha M. I told you that we scruple not reading most of it in the place of Homilies or other Books especially the books called Wisedom and Ecclesiasticus But 1. Many Bishops and Doctours of the Church of England have accused the books of Tobit of down right lies and the books of Iudith Bell and Dragon c. as being meer fictions 2. And when we read these it is to be done in the same order as we read the Scripture by the name of Lessons which is the Title given to the Chapters read out of the Old and New Testament 3. And if we could yet read all these that will not serve unless we declare our Assent Consent and Approbation of the Appointment of them in the book which we cannot do L. But they are for the most part to be read but on week days or holy days M. The Conforming Clergy Consent and Covenant to the Imposition that requireth them to read the Common-Prayer every day in the week unless they be hindred by sickness or some urgent cause And so it is still the publick Service God's Service is all to be done with holy Reverence and if the Book of Tobit and some others be guilty of so many gross falsehoods as Protestants have and do still accuse them of I fear both to use them as Lessons in the place of God's Word lest it be prophanation and also to subscribe or declare my Approbation of the Calender and that use lest I be guilty of the sin of all the Ministers in England that so use it And it 's dangerous to seem to tell the people that so many books are God's Word that are not such For they understand not the Greek word Apocrypha and every Reader at least that is not Licensed to Preach is forbidden by the Canon to expound even that one word to them CHAP. XVIII Point XV. Of Assenting to Mistranslations and Subscribing that they are not contrary to the Word of God. L. ARE not the Epistles and Gospels used according to the last Translation M. Yes in the new Books they are but the Psalms are not L. What great mistranslations are there M. Sometimes a whole Verse or more is left out and sometimes the Translation is quite contrary to the Text. As Psal. 105. 28. They rebelled against his word instead of They rebelled not against his word And in the Book which this justifieth are many in the Epistles and Gospels I have cited them at large elsewhere L. How cometh there to be so many faults in the old Translation M. The work was an excellent good work But the Authors it seems for want of skill in the Hebrew followed the Septuagint Greek translation which hath these and many such defects L. Sure it is lawful to use and follow the Septuagint for the Apostles did so in the New Testament M. 1. The Apostles some times use it and sometimes follow the Hebrew against it and sometimes neither 2. But to Use it is one thing and to Justifie it is another thing It was in common use in the time of Christ and his Apostles and they used that in speaking to the people which use made intelligible and acceptable And we scruple not using it But all the works of Man are imperfect as Man is And why must we subscribe that there is nothing in it contrary to the word of God When as every mistake in it is contrary to it L. It seems then you would not subscribe to the Bible that there is nothing in it contrary to the Word of God M. I will subscribe to the truth of all that is in the true Copies of the Original if there by any such And I will subscribe that the various Lections in those Copies that we have are not the failing of the Holy Ghost or Apostles nor are such as leave us in just doubt of any necessary Truth And I will subscribe to the Translation so far as it agreeth with the Original But I will not subscribe that any Translation is perfect or faultless or to this or that Hebrew or Greek Copie as if in every word or Lection it certainly agreed with the Autographs And why should men make snares for the Church by imposing Professions that any mere man's works are perfect when all mortal men are confessedly imperfect Is it not enough peaceable to use them and to profess that all the word of God is infallible Truth L. But I cannot think that an Approbation of all the Translations is intended in your Assent and Consent M. Are they no part of that which is contained in the Book and prescribed by it Or could not the Parliament speak sense Chap. XIX Point XVI Of Consenting to reject all from Communion who desire not our Episcopal Confirmation L. ME thinks you that have written a Book for Confirmation should not scruple consenting to this M. I told you that I am so far from scrupling the true use of Confirmation that I think it is the want of it that is the greatest corruption of
Licensed as is aforesaid presume to appoint or hold any Meetings for Sermons c. nor attempt by Fasting and Prayer to cast out any Devil c. L. All this was done to prevent Abuses M. It fell out well that they did not forbid Christianity or reading Scripture in a known Tongue to prevent abusing it And next that they forbad not Law and the use of Reason which is most of all abused But do not you thâ—â—k that they make very unworthy Men Ministers or that they change or maim the Pastoral Office when no Minister no not the wisest may be trusted to fast and pray with his Neighbours Should a Master of a Family be forbidden this in his House the Iews forbad it not to Cornelius What jealousies have such a Clergy of one another And of Preaching Fasting and Praying What if some Neighbours have some great Temptations some great Guilt some great Danger by a Plague or the like or some great Affliction some Friends near Deathâ— or some important Business of great moment as Marriage Travel Navigation c. Must the Bishop know all their secrets that their Pastor at home must know Or is he a capable Judge for many Hundred Parishes when they must Fast or Pray Or did you ever know any go to him for such a License Are not those unworthy Ministers that be not fit to be trusted to Fast and Pray with their People while the Law is open to punish all abuses of it And are not those over-subject to Prelacy that will Swear Obedience in this any more than against Preaching the Gospel Dan. 6. 5. We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel except we find it concerning the Law of his God. Chap. XXXVI Point XXXIII Of the Excommunication of the three last Canons M. THe quality of the rest of the Canons resolve me that it is unlawful for me if commanded to publish an Excommunication against any upon the three last L. What â—e the three last M. The 139th is Whosoever shall hereafter affirm that the Sacred Synod of this Nation in the Name of Christ and by the King's Authority assembled is not the true Church of England by Representation let him be Excommunicate and not restored till he repent and publickly revoke this his wicked Error L. What fault can you find with this M. 1. No Man can tell what is the Church representative till they know which is the Church real And this they tell us not either as to Matter or Form. 1. Whether the Church real be only the Clergy or also the Laity Whether the King and Parliament Nobles Gentry and Commons be all Represented in the Convocation If yea by what Law or Power And may we say that King and Parliament do what these do What need they then after to confirm their Canons And they that hold the Church Laws bind in Conscience as such before King and Parliament confirm them will bring King and Parliament under their Obedience if not Excommunication But if they pretend not to represent the King and Laity they falsly exclude them from being part of the Church 2. They are utterly disagreed de Forma what the Church of England is either it hath an Ecclesiastical constitutive Soveraign Power or not If not it is not an Ecclesiastick Body Politick And of late their disputing Doctors plainly confess that it hath no such specifying Summa Potestas and so is formally no Political governed Church The King's Government of it by the Sword which none deny they say is but an Accident of it and not Essential to the Church And so in sum it is but a meer Community or a voluntary Confederacy of many Churches that make no unifying Politie And that is to be a Church only in a loose and not proper sence as the Assembly at Nimegen was a Kingdom 3. I doubt not but Thousands of Lâ—y-Men and many Dissenting Ministers are true Parts of the Church of England And therefore that the Convocation represented our part only of that Church 4. If they be but a Community they can make no Laws but only Contracts Laws are only the Acts and Instruments of Rulers Therefore we owe no Obedience to them as being no Commands of Rulers till the Civil Power make them Laws save as particular Pastors may make them Laws to their several Flocks 5. If they make them obligatory Church-Laws as the Acts of the Convocation then it seems the Representative Church governeth the Real and the Presbyters in Convocation exercise a Legislative Power which is the highest that Bishops can pretend to 6. These being left thus in uncertainty in the dark how comes that Man to deserve Excommunication or be wickedly erroneous that herein declareth his dissent I dare not publish such an Excommunication if commanded L. What is the 140th Canon M. Whosoever shall affirm that no manner of Person either of the Clergy or Laity not being then particularly assembled in the said sacred Synod are to be subject to tâ—e Decrees thereof in Causes Ecclesiastical made and ratifyed by the King's Majesty's Supream Authority as not having given their Voice to them Let him be Excommunicated and not restored c. Here craftily in a Parenthesis they put in the King's Authority and if they mean only his Obligation on us no one of us denieth it But because their disputing Doctors take that but as an Accident we may say that the Papists themselves are oft put to say that General Councils bind not the absent till they receive them And the French long received not the Council of Trent nor many Churches other Councils L. What is the last Canon M. The 141st for so many Church-Commandments we have God's Ten being but a little part of our Religion is Whoever shall affirm that the Sacred Synod assembled as aforesaid was a Company of such Persons as did conspire together against Godly and Religious Professors of the Gospel and that therefore both they and their Proceedings in making Canons and Constitutions in Causes Ecclesiastical by the King's Authority Let them be Excommunicated and not restored c. Here again we doubt not of the King 's obligatory Power But what the Persons and their Works were I think a Point that Christians may differ about and not deserve Excommunication It seems they could foresee what Men would judge of them and no wonder tho' they had not the Gift of Prophecy I am none of their Judge but leave God's Work to himself But I must say that this Book of Canons doth no whit increase my esteem of Council of Prelacy of Humane Canons or Clergies Laws nor of the particular Bishops and Clergy that made them And that I will neither publish such Excommunications nor promise or swear to do it Tho' I know that stretching pretences satisfie some Men like theirs that own the name of Sacred to that Synod because Sacrum quod sanctum simul execrabile signat A professed and relative Sanctity may be granted them Chap.
have an account of my own Doctrine in above an hundred Books of which I leave Posterity to judge L. Yes we hear what is said against you for your Rebellious Doctrine in former times M. I then gave the World an account in my Book called Political Aphorisms or a Holy Common-wealth written for Monarchy by Mr. Harrington's Provocation what moved me to be on the Parliaments side and I know nothing that they have charged on my Doctrine but the words of that Book which I revoked long ago and some Clauses in my Saints Rest which I expunged before the King came in And if my later writings as my Second Plea for Peace written purposely to satisfie them of my present judgment be not regardable why do they call me to retractations And if the Act of Indempnity have done nothing against our former Actions all General Monk's Army and the rest such that restored the King must expect the like reward if death deliver them not from mens wrath L But why should you not give over Preaching when you are silenced Have not the Bishops power to silence and degrade as well as to ordain or the Parliament at least M. We doubt not but the Magistrate hath power to hinder Preachers from doing mischief and to restrain those that Preach Rebellion Sedition or Heresie or that do more hurt than good But not on that pretence to hinder good and to forbid Christs Ministers to Preach his Gospel Bishops and Senior Pastors are Investing Ministers of Christ to ordain fit Men to the Ministry and judge of their fitness to that end And if men prove uncapable by Apostacy or Heresie or Perfidiousness they ought to do as Cyprian did about Martial and Basilides require the Congregation in the name of Christ to forsake them But they have no power to forbid any faithful Minister to do the Office to which he is ordained nor to forbid the people to hear them And if they do their Commands are nullities as to any Obligation to Obedience L. But they that give you the Office may take it away M. He that giveth it as a Donor may which is Christ but not he that only as a Servant delivereth that which his Master gives If you send a Servant to deliver a Man Possession of House Land Horse Money c. That Servant cannot take it from him at his pleasure I do not think that the Priest that Marryeth Men can unmarry them when he will If he could I think he would have more work I scarce think the Patron that giveth one a Benefice can take it away when he will which is more alienable than the Office. A man cannot renounce it himself when he will who hath some more power of himself than the Bishop hath Do you not know that all are agreed that the Office of the Ministry is as Marriage during Life and not for Tryal or at Pleasure except in case of Adultery Therefore the Papists say that Ordination maketh an Indelible Character Of this all Parties are agreed L. But why say you the Ordainers do not give you the Power but as Investing Ministers you are not called immediately by Christ as the Apostles were who then doth give it you if not the Ordainers M. 1. The Office lyeth in an Obligation to great labour and great patience as well as in a gift of power It is a power to work in a suffering state And as the Bishop can oblige no man to this against his will so neither can he oblige any man farther than Christ and his own consent oblige him Therefore it followeth that neither can he give the power farther than Christ giveth it and the Ordainers and People and Magistrates have each their part under Christ in the conveyance L. How doth Christ give Ministers their Office M. 1. He maketh a Law that there shall be a Ministry and specifieth the Office by describing their work and the necessary qualification of the Persons So that it is not left to Bishops nor any to alter the Office nor to admit any uncapable Persons into it 2. Next Christ blesseth Mens Preparatory Studies and endeavours and by his gifts and grace doth give them all Ministerial Abilities 3. He maketh them desirous and willing of the Office and Work in Love to the blessed Effects and so maketh them Consenters 4. His Providence bringeth them where their Labours are really needful 5. He moveth the minds of the Flock or Electors to desire chuse or accept them 6. He commandeth the Ordainers to Approve and Ordain those that are thus qualified as aforesaid 7. He commandeth Magistrates to protect and encourage them 8. He commandeth the Neighbour Church-Pastors to own them in their Neighbourly Communion Thus you may see how Ministers are made by Christ tho' not without mans Service Do you know how God maketh Marriages 1. He instituteth the State and by his Law maketh the Husband the Ruler of the Wife 2. He causeth their natural Capacity and Inclination 3. His Providence acquainteth them with each other And 4. He moveth them to Consent And 5. He maketh it the Ministers Duty to do his part so that the Husbands power is of God. Do you know who giveth the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs of London their Power 1. The King by Charter determineth what Power they shall have and how they shall be qualified and how chosen and how sworn and invested 2. The Citizens accordingly choose them 3. And the Recorder Sweareth them Who is it now that giveth them the Power The King's Charter tho' not till they be duly qualified and chosen The Recorder cannot depose them again No nor the Citizens who may do more unless it be in the Charter L. But what Sin fear you by ceasing your ministry M. 1. We fear the guilt of Perfidious breaking of our Ordination Vow by which we solemnly obliged our selves to diligent performing of our Ministry The Bishops put those of us on this whom they ordained who now would force us to violate it 2. Therein we fear the guilt of Sacriledge as alienating Persons consecrated to God. And we can judge it to be no better than Pharisaical Hypocrisie in them that aggravate the Sacriledge of alienating consecrated Utensils and Lands and yet will alienate consecrated Persons and take it to be well done whereas the Lands and Goods are but to serve the Persons who are nearer to God while they serve him 3. We fear the Sin of Cruelty Unmercifulness and the guilt of Damning Souls As if we were commanded to forbear feeding our Children or the Poor we should expect to be charg'd with Murdering them if they died of Famine by our Neglect 4. We fear being charged with fighting against Christ or as Enemies to his Kingdom and to his Saving Work He was so great an Esteemer of Souls and Holiness that by the greatest of Miracles he came in Flesh to redeem and sanctifie and save Men And if we starve and betray them to Satan by our neglect
be such And tho' good and sober Lords and Gentlemen will promote good and sober men the propagation of the species is the most natural Appetite and an evil Tree will bring forth evil Fruit and a Hater of Godliness is unlike to chuse a godly Pastor And any man that hath Money be he never so bad or erroneous may buy an Advowson or Presentation And must all pâ—or Souls have no other Pastors than these men will chuse And quo jure how came they by a right to chuse Pastors for all the â—and Did God ever give it them The People at first sinfully gave it them in blind gratitude for Building and Endowing Temples But Mens Grant many hundred years ago being sinful hath no power to bind our Consciences Our Fore fathers might give their Lands from their Posteritâ— but they could not give away Gods Ordinances nor the means of our Salvation If Patrons might ill dispose of Temples and Tythes that 's nothing to prove that they may chuse Pastors for all men against their wills L. But the Bishops have the power of Institution and they will keep out unworthy Men. M. 1. Do they de facto keep them out I told you truly what a company of ignorant drunken Readers I was bred up under till I was thirteen years of Age or fourteen and what a sort were round about us And yet the Bishops were as good men as any I know now Bishop Morton was our Bishop If we are so hardly agreed in a notorious matter of Fact viz. what Pastors multitudes of Parishes now have it 's in vain to dispute of any thing else 2. When we have told the Conformists what men are Instituted their common answer is that it 's long of the Patrons and the Law that enableth not the Bishop to keep them out And that if the Bishop deny Institution to any one that can but say some account of his Faith in Latin a quare impedit will force him to Institute him But whether you will lay it on the Bishops want of Power or their Will it 's no relief to the miserable People And that which the Bishop requireth more to Ordination is but a Certificate of a good Conversation which I never knew man so Heretical or wicked in all my Life that could not get from three Ministers L. Would you have Patrons turned out of their right M. No it is no right of Gods giving to be the sole Choosers of Pastors for men Souls There is a threefold part in Ministers admittance 1. To judge who is fit to be by them Ordained And this is the Ordainers part 2. To Chuse or Consent who shall be the Pastor of Mens Souls And this is the Peoples part 3. To judge and chuse who shall have the publick Places Maintenance Countenance and Toleration And this is the Magistrates and Patrons part L. But these three may differ and it 's like will do so how then shall ever the Churches be provided M. There is nothing in this World without difficulties and inconveniences But on so great a Treasure a threefold Lock is good security and hath less inconvenience than the way that we are against It 's like necessity will at last make all consent as the Cities in Belgium do in their Government But if they should not 1. None can chuse who shall be the Pastor of this or that Church till the Ordainers consent that he be in general a Minister in the Church Universal So that their Consent so far is previous 2. If the Patron offer an unfit Man and the People refuse him he may offer others If they continue to disagree it is but let the Patron chuse who shall have the Place and Tythes and the People chuse who shall be their Pastor L. What confusion will this bring in Shall one that is no Pastor have the Benefice and whom shall the People chuse and where shall they Assemble M. If great Men that should keep Gods Order will obstinately break it it 's they that cause the confusion and inferiors cannot remedy it But if you will lay by prejudice and have patience I shall open the case to you I. The Magistrate as the Patron of the Church must see that every place have competent Teaching And over the meer Catechumens or Auditors he may appoint who shall chuse these Parish Teachers and to them as such he may give the publick Place and Maintenance if Original Dedication to Pastors as such make it not Sacriledge to alienate it And these Teachers are bound to Preach Catechise and do all that 's due to Catechumens II. If these men be tolerable no doubt the generality of the People will chuse them for their Pastors prudence requiring it rather than lose the advantage of the Place and of a countenanced maintained Ministry III. If intolerable Men get in or such as the Flock of Communicants cannot submit to it 's most like that the People will for the advantage of the publick Place and Countenance take some Neighbour Pastor for theirs and there Communicate paying their Tythes at home IV. If most chuse the Parish Teacher for their Pastor and a few Dissenters go to the next Parish Church the inconvenience will be comparatively small V. If any number can consent to no Parish Minister near them it is but to tolerate their Communion in a place of their own preparing if the Magistrate find their Principles and Conversation tolerable and this under Laws of Peace and good Behaviour and what harm is in all this L. It seems then you take it for unlawful Conformity to take the Parish Ministers for our Pastors M. No Sir tho' any Patron chuse them and obtrude them to whom God hath given no such right yet if they be fit or tolerable Men the convenience of Place Countenance Maintenance and Parish Order will teach Men as I said finis gratiâ in prudence to consent to them But if such be unfit and intolerable I will have better if I can And I take it for unlawful Conformity to take all or any that are intolerable for our Pastors because such Patrons chuse them who I should be loth should chuse my Servants my Cook or my Physician And it 's unlawful to give away to a Patron the Churches right of Election or Consent if we can keep it Chap. XLV Point II. Whether Parents have not more right than our Patrons to chuse Pastors and Church Communion for their Children M. II. THE next fault of Lay-Conformity is That they are deprived of due Family-government while a Stranger called Patron and not the Parents must chuse who shall be Pastor to their Children when they are at Age and to what Church their Family shall go L. Did not you say before that the King may settle Teachers in all the Parishes and force Men to hear them why then may he not force you and your Children and Servants to hear them as Catechumens M. I told you that he ought to take
just occasion to seek it 3. They say that there is no Church without a Bishop and that the Diocesan-Church is the least true political Church And if so he separateth not from any Church that separateth not from the Diocesan 4. These foresaid persons do nothing to forfeit the Communion of neighbour Churches therefore it is a sin and wrong to deny it them If it were proved an errour to avoid that as a sin which they avoid all mankind hath errours and to be over-fearful of Fire or Water or Plague or Poyson is a tolerable safe weakness and not like the sins that swarm in multitudes of tolerated Parishioners L. That which is not so immoral as Fornication Drunkenness Cursing and Swearing may be more hurtful to the Church and so deserve greater severity from Governours M. The Church-Keys are to be used with due relation to Heaven and those are to be taken in or cast out that Christ will take in or cast out from Heaven And if you think he will damn an obedient godly Christian for fearing to partake of the sin of wicked Priests or for fearing to be poysoned with love-killing Doctrine or for fearing the vain Worship of mens traditions rather than a prophane derider of Conscience and a filthy Fornicator Drunkard or Blasphemer I shall not think it worth my labour to dispute with you But men that take the Churches welfare to lie in the wealth and domination of such as they more than in the Holy Obedience Conscience and Piety of the People will object the same that you now do CHAP. LIII POINT X. Of Swearing never to endeavour any alteration of Government in the Church M. HOW far this extendeth objectively I before proved X. by 1. The words of the Oaths 2. The consent of the Bishops 3. And the words of the seven Canons and the Et Caetera Canon in 1640. so that there is no doubt of it 2. How far it extendeth as to the persons obliged I before told you and you may read 1. In the Corporation Act which imposeth it on all Corporations 2. In the Vestry Act which imposeth it on all Church-Vestries 3. In the Act of Vniformity which imposeth the subscription on all the Clergy 4. In the Oxford Act of Banishment which imposeth the Oath on Non-conformists and more 5. In the Militia Act which imposeth it on all the Military Commanders and Souldiers in the Land so that you may well say that is a National Covenant or Oath 3. What is amiss in the Church-Government that needeth an amending alteration I have so often told you that I will not repeat it Judge then what this Oath importeth L. It could never be the meaning of the Parliament that no man shall endeavour to amend the faults of any Officers Courts or Actions for they often amend their own Acts of Parliament and they reserve a Power in King and Parliament to make alterations even in Church Governments But that belongs not to the People nor should they endeavour it M. 1. I hope you will not confound Stated Offices and Mens Exercise of them in Practice I grant that they do not bind us by Oath never to endeavour that Bishops and all the Officers of their Courts may be honest men and slander and injure no man against Law c. But it is the Offices as here stated that are made thus far unalterable named in the Canon arch-Arch-Bishops Bishops Deans Arch-Deacons and the rest that bear Office therein 2. I grant that the Law is made to bind none but Subjects and that an altering power is reserved to King and Parliament But it doth not follow that all the Subjects be not bound by it Though They may change Laws yet We may not And as you say They suppose that it belongeth not to the People to endeavour it Which We grant as to any Rebellious Seditious or otherwise unlawful Endeavour But whether God bind not all men in their own Place and Calling by Prayer Conference Elections of Officers Petition c. to endeavour to amend all Crying Dangerous Common Sins is a farther Question L. They cannot mean to exclude Petitioning for that is the Subjects Right and is by them allowed with Restraints M. 1. It is meant in opposition to the Scots Covenant which tyed men to oppose Popery Prelacy and Schisme only in their several Places and Callings 2. It is expres'd in the most universal terms without the least Exception by men that knew how to speak 3. Reasons were given in Parliament against any Limitation and those Reasons carryed it 4. They were Men that were wholly for the Church of England whose Canon had before Excommunicated themselves and all men that accused any Office in the Church Government as sinful And they knew that should any of them when the Parliament is risen yea or there so say he is an Excommunicate Man. 5. It is most certain that they intended to bind all Subjects on whom these Oaths are imposed even from petitioning or any other Endeavour of Alteration though they allow petitioning in other Cases for they intended to fix and secure the Church-Government against all Alterations 6. Therefore as I said before they joined it with yea and set it before State-Government in all their Oaths and Covenants And do you think in Conscience they left men at liberty to petition against Monarchy or against the Life or Power or Honour of the King Far be it from us to think so ill of them I must profess to you that I do not think half so ill of well-order'd Monasteries of Men or Women as I do of our large Diocesses or our Lay-Excommunicators according to the Canons And yet even in the Times of Popery the Nation was not Sworn never to endeavour any alteration of Monasteries If you would have all Corporations Soldiers Vestries Ministers sworn never to endeavour to cure the Sick to relieve the Poor to seek more Wealth to reform all Play-houses Ale-houses and Taverns to Catechize their Families c. I would not join with you National Oaths and Covenants are Matters of great moment We have deeply suffered by rashness in such already And should any of them prove false and wicked and the Nation be stigmatized with Perjury you might more sadly write Lord have Mercy on us on the Land than on the Doors where the most dreadful Plague prevaileth CHAP. LIV. POINT XI Of Swearing an Abhorrence of taking Arms against any Commissionated by the KING M. THis also I have said enough of in the Case of the XI Ministers and told you that we are far from scrupling it in Disloyalty but in Loyalty only 1. Lest the Keepers of the Seals may by Commissions depose the King or deliver up the Kingdom to whom they please 2. Because the Authority of a Commission as above and against the King 's own Law is not a matter that Lawyers and Judges themselves are agreed of and therefore unfit for the unskilful Vulgar to determine by their
nullifie the Baptismal Vow 10. If the King's Souldiers at once swear to fight for the King and to destroy or plunder some innocent men or the Papist Souldier should swear to be true to the King and to pull down the Protestant Ministry and Bishops the former Part binds them though the latter doth not L. An Oath unlawfully imposed binds no man. M. That 's only the Doctrine of Perjury contrary to all sober Christian Casuists An unlawful imposition that is made by an Usurper without true power binds no man to take the Oath imposed but if he take it without being bound to take it the Oath binds him to the lawful part of the matter 1. If a High-way Robber make me swear to be true to the King that Oath binds though he had no Authority to impose it on me 2. If an Usurping Minister Baptize a man and make him Vow himself to Christ his Vow binds him though the Usurper had no authority 3. If a man make many voluntary Vows which no man bound him to make he is bound to keep them if the matter be lawful And the want of authority in the imposer doth but leave you as a volunteer unobliged to take it 4. And I would not have a Popish Clergy tempted to say The King and Parliament had no authority to impose the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy on us without the Pope therefore we be not bound to keep them L. But the Covenant was forced and no man is bound by a Promise or Oath which he was forced to make M. That 's a Doctrine of gross Perjury It 's true that no man that without authority forceth another to promise any thing to him can lay any just clame to that which he forced a man to promise For no mans own Crime can give him right to a Commodity Nemini debetur Commodum ex propria culpâ and the promiser is not bound to give it him because he hath no right to receive it but if you be injuriously forced to promise or vow your Duty to GOD or the King or your Neighbour that vow and promise doth bind you to perform it 1. If it be done without right by Prince or Prelates that force men to be Baptized yet that forced Vow doth bind them 2. If Bishops unjustly force unfit men to the LORD's Supper their Vow there made obligeth them 3. As I said if a High-way Robber force you to swear to be true to the King or to restore ill gotten goods or to recant a slander that Oath doth bind you 4. If the King should unjustly force you to Marry a Woman the Covenant binds you The Reason is because man hath free will and doth all that he doth by that choice which is true freedom It 's no proper force of his will that moveth him though we call it force from anothers act who doth his best to force him a man may refuse though he die for it He that casteth his goods into the Sea to save the Ship is urged to it but may choose He that giveth a Thief his purse to save his life might have chosen Do not the Martyrs freely lay down their lives and if any deny Christ or his Cause to save his life and say I was forced that will not save his Soul. 5. And your Doctrine will set up all unfaithfulness and rebellion All men that under Penalties are commanded to swear Allegiance or to take this Corporation-Oath or the Militia-Oath or the Oath to the Bishops are hereby taught to say We were forced to it by the King and Prelates and did it all against our wills and therefore are not bound by it Such principles loose the bonds of all Societies Loyalty and humane Converse and married men will put away their Wives when they are weary of them and say I was forced against my will by my Parents or by Poverty c. L. But this Covenant was unlawfully taken as well as unlawfully imposed and therefore bindeth not M. This also is Pernicious Doctrine against all sober Casuists If the matter be good the causeless and unlawful act of taking it doth not nullifie the obligation to perform it He that voweth an indifferent act should not have done it for a vow must not be causeless but he must keep it when it is made He that sinned in marriage when he ought not yet must perform his marriage Covenant He that in meer hypocrisie maketh the Baptismal vow did sin and yet is bound to keep it The truth is wicked men have so much of ill principles and ill ends that they do all sinfully that they do oft as to the substance and ever as to the manner But they are not disobliged from all their Contracts and Vows because they sinfully made them Else they will purposely do all sinfully that they may not be obliged So that 1. If the Act of Imposition 2. The Act of Swearing 3. And part of the matter Sworn be all unlawful yet a man is obliged to that part of the matter that is lawful But part of the Vow in question was good L. What part of it was good as to the matter M. 1. The renouncing of Popery 2. And of Schism 3. And of Prophaneness 4. The Obligation to defend the King. 5. The Profession to Repent of sin c. L. But all this we are bound to otherwise before M. Then you confess that it is good and then the Vow in question binds us to it I hope you are not so ignorant as to think that 2 Vow binds not a man to do that which he is bound to before I told you before tho' a man be bound by his Vow in Baptism to Christ his renewing it at every Sacrament layeth more and more Obligation on him If a man have taken the Oath of Allegiance every time he taketh it he is again bound to the same thing One may have a thousand Obligations to one and the same Duty L. But one thing is unanswerable No man is bound by a Vow that had not a self-obliging power But the Subjects of England and Scotland had no self-obliging power to take that Covenant because the King was against it The 30. of Levit proveth this at large M. Indeed if the Act of Vowing were not only sinful but a meer nullity that Vow being no Vow could not bind But that Levit. 30. doth no whit prove this I have fully manifested in my Christian Directory in the chap. of Vows to which I referr you part 3. cap. 5. Where the whole case of Vows is so largely opened that I will here only say this little The text of Levit. 30. doth expresly speak only of Women that are in a Parents or Husbands house and only of Vows made freely to God of doing or offering something to him Yea it seemeth limitted to them of which many reasons may be given And many reasons I have there mentioned pag. 33. why it doth not extend to Princes and Magistrates for releasing
inserted those restraints of the hurt and abuse of the Diocesan form and their Courts as may do much to secure Religion And if they be kept from doing harm we have most of our end Their faults are not ours who cannot remedy them 4. And you are mistaken in thinking that this form of Reconciliation will cause no Concord Less was accepted with published thanks to the King for his Declaration 1660. And I believe that the Dissenters would be so few as that the Concord of Consenters would render them inconsiderable or uncapable of being dangerous to our peace L. But 1. what makes you put in so much that no body denieth Do you not seem hereby to intimate unjustly that all this is denied you M. 1. I have no hope of Concord but by disputing ex concessis and improving mens own principles Do you think I am so foolish as to expect that Adversaries so fierce should change their judgments by any thing that I can say if their own interest or their own principles by inference change them not 2. We want nothing more in reality and practice than that which is most granted us in shadow and general words who grant not that we must obey God before man And must love God above all our neighbours as our selves and must do as we would be done by And must bear with the receive the weak and persecute none c. And if this were done we were all agreed O happy England if all were granted practically and indeed which men in general words approve But if they grant this and yet will not grant it but seek to ruine them that seek it are they not unexcuseable L. Why begin you with the qualifications requisite to Baptism as if you spake to Infidels M. Because I cannot build without a foundation This is the chief thing necessary to our Reformation that the Church may consist of capable persons L. Why name you Parents and Pro-parents instead of God-fathers and God-mothers M. Because it belongs to him to covenant in the Childs name or behalf whose will may justly go as for the Childs will and that is they whose he is and who have the power of him and whom God hath commanded and authorized to this office and who are obliged to educate him and seek his well-fare By Pro-parents I mean such as by Adoption or otherwise justly take the child for theirs which when Parents leave them Orphans is usual I say nothing against God-fathers as seconds presupposing this much L. But I pray you who shall be judge whether the profession be Understanding which must be made by the Adult or by the Parent By this trick you will make the Priest the chief Governour of the Church and he shall keep out whom he pleases as for want of understanding the words of the Covenant M. 1. I confess that this is the first and most momentous part of the power of the Keys But it tells us that it is not only Bishops that have that power But either some-body or no body must have this power or trust 1. If No-body Turks Heathens Sadducees any may be baptized tho' in scorn and may be members of the Church at pleasure and the Church shall indeed be no Church being confounded with the World. A Parrot may be taught to say those words A man of about 80 Years of age in the Parish where I taught being ask'd who Iesus Christ was pointed to the Sun and said That was he and ask'd Wh was the Holy Ghost Said he thought the Moon What wiseman will be the Pastor of such a Church 2. Christ hath instituted an Office for this judgment and given them the Keys Therefore there must be some such judge 2. If Some-body who must it be 1. If it be every expectant for himself it will be as before and there will be no Church Any Heathen may come in 2. If it must be the Magistrate you call him to attend this Service and to teach and try all that are baptized at age and all Parents for their Children And if you lay on him the Pastors Office you make him Pastor 3. If it must be the Bishop it is impossible and no Bishop will do it when he doth not so much as know or see one of an hundred in his Diocess It must then be the Parish-Minister or No-body 3. Those must be trusted with it whom Christ hath appointed for such trust But that is the Ministers To them he hath commited the Keys of his Church or Kingdom 4. Those must be trusted with it that must Execute it It is the Minister that must Baptize And therefore he must judge whom to baptize or else he is but an Executioner like one that washeth any one that 's foul and not a judge of what he doth nor must answer for it 5. The Universal Church ever since Christ's days hath agreed in this And shall we now overthrow it And as to the exception against the Power of the Pastor 1. All power may be abused shall we have no King no Judge or Justice or Bishops because they may abuse their power 2. It is so natural to men to consult their own carnal Interest which will here most lie in pleasing the people and sloathfully to omit so costly and troublesome a duty that it 's enough to foretell that a hundred will sin in making the door too wide for one that maketh it too narrow and doleful experience tells us this We are confounded by the contrary extream 2. He that is refused wrongfully by one Minister may find enough that will receive him 3. We grant appeals to Rulers in case of Male-administration 4. The setting open the Church-doors without an examiner will be an hundred fold worse And you must be like the Woman that would never have her house swept lest her servant should chance to sweep out a pin What think you of all the ancient Churches that taught the Adult long as Catechumens before they would baptize even them that begg'd it L. 2. In your second Article again you give the Minister a power to judge of mens Understanding But I need no further answer to that But do you not thus make Examination by Ministers necessary to the Sacrament M. I make it needful to Confirmation or Adult-Communion but that is but once in a Man's life L. But is it not enough that Children own their baptismal Covenant by coming to Church and not denying it without any Confirmation or other Profession M. Many come to hear that are no Christians Children are born in Nescience and when they come to age must be made knowing Christians and believe and obey for themselves if they will be saved and they cannot consent to their baptismal Covenant if they understand it not This is the thing that hath corrupted the Church Those that were Infant-Christians and at age were no Christians have filled many Congregations Yet I confess that where Confirmation and Personal Trial is by the
A thousand will be unnamed when you have done your best at it But the Rule must not name every Errour against it The contrariety will be discernable It is enough that men profess a perfect Rule and renounce all contrary and be responsible to the Church and their Rulers when they corrupt Religion contrary to the Rule and their own Profession An Errour not manifested hurts not others and none is punishable till proved If Heresy be kept secret the Church must not make new Laws and Tests to make men confess it but punish it when it is vented L. But shall Ministers make no profession but what a Papist or a Heretick will make M. No if a Papist or Heretick will profess all that is necessary else we must make more Must we make new Creeds or new Scriptures as oft as dissemblers will falsely profess that already made This was the temptation to those multitudes of Creeds by which Councils distracted the Churches which Hilary decryeth L. But the Bishops will never take down the Oath of Canonical Obedience and all the other Oaths and Subscriptions that are formed to their Interest M. I cannot help that Over-doing is un-doing If ever Episcopacy be cast out it will be by such over-doing which will not let men live in Peace that would not molest them L. 6. Why do you seem to grant the Bishops and Patrons votes in the choice of Pastors when before you seem to have much against them M. I have nothing against the Ordainers judging of the fitness of the Ordained nor of Magistrate or Patrons disposal of Temples and Tithes And because nothing but necessity will weigh down the great inconvenience of maintaining distinct Pastors while â— setled Lecturer hath the Temple and Tithes therefore I suppose that the Bishop and Patron will have their Votes And I suppose you know that it is vain to motion to Patrons to resign this power were it worse than it is else Advowsons would not be sold at such rates as they are by many Patrons And my silence where speaking will do no good is no sign of my approbation L. But do you think that the Communicants shall have a negative Vote in choosing Pastors M. I think they will not till God raise up better men than many Patrons are But I am past doubt that God's Law of Nature and Scripture and the whole consent of ancient Churches Fathers and Councils are for it And methinks were not carnal Interest stronger with them than Religion men that are professedly for God's Law and Church-Canons and Customs should not obstinately oppose them all Yea the highest Episcopal Men are in this against them Mr. Thorndike saith that till the Clergy and People again choose their own Bishops there needs no other reason be given of the contempt of Episcopacy Yea I have proved past denial oft that no Non-consenter can be a member of any Pastoral Church nor any man be a mans Pastor that doth not consent It 's reason then to speak for the Flocks Consenting Vote L. But they may be forced to consent M. I shall give you a reason against that anon L. Do you think the ignorant vulgar are fit to choose themselves a Pastor The most are usually the worst M. If the Church-men will make the uncapable rabble Communicants and then deny them Church-privileges because they are uncapable they condemn themselves for taking yea forcing in such uncapable men Even as the Bishops that Ordain Ministers that cannot Preach and then by their Canon forbid them to Preach 2. And yet I will say That never knew any places in City or Country that have oft had better Pastors for Learning and all Worth than where the Communicants were the choosers Yea even the ignorant usually have a gust that discerneth and valueth good and able men 3. And yet I speak not so high as for their Power of first Choice but only of Consent nor yet to choose who shall be a Minister but who shall be their Pastor The Bishop asketh not their consent at Ordination L. But you know that if there must three Consents go to it The Ordainers the Patrons and the Communicants they may never agree and frustrate all M. Humane faultiness puts inconveniences into all actions But we must not cure it with a worse If you would take no Physick till three Physicians agree it 's a less mischief than to give any man that can buy that Power a right to impose what ignorant fellow or enemy he will to be your sole Physician Three Locks and Keys in three hands to so great a Trust may be better than one in an untrusty hand Shall every Papist or Atheist choose me a Physician as fitter than I 2. But if they should never agree it is but every one stopping at his own part The Ordainers have done their part and the Patron hath chosen a Teacher for Auditors and a Pastor for such as will accept him and the People that trust him not may go to one that they can trust and this is better than worse L. But the Patron will prevail against them as long as he must nominate though the Bishop and People had a Negative Vote for if they refuse one he will still name another of his own complexion M. Uncurable evils I cannot help I can but wish that no Patron had ever built Churches or given Glebes at so dear a rate as thereby to buy from the Church its Privileges L. But can you think that the Bishops will ever abate Re-ordination of thsoe ordained by Presbyters M. I think not and therefore I have no hope of concord by their Concession But I know that former Bishops would have done it and the Church of England still owned such since the Reformation and God may send England such again and for such an age I write and not for this with any great hope And if you would not have the Land confounded with doubts whether they be Baptized or whether they had any valid Sacraments and whether the Papists or Protestants be the true Church c. it concerns you all to regard the decision of this Case L. But you speak only against Re-Ordaining those that are already Ordained and nothing for the time to come M. 1. You know it is hopeless to move for that 2. And it 's meet that Ordination should be well regulated 3. And when all the unjust impositions are removed as is here desired few moderate men will scruple Ordination L. VII Your 7th hath so much reason that I can say nothing against it but that I doubt the Bishops will never abateâ— their Ceremonies or any part of their Liturgy so far to endure any to disuse it though they meddle not against it M. I know what 's necessary and just but I know not what men will grant I am of your mind of those in possession except some few But if any man will make and keep up any instruments of division and hurt on
by Church-Government it is by the Magistrate's Sword and not by ours by the Keys 7. And is it not then ridiculous contradiction to dispute so hard about church-Church-Power and against the Presbyters claim when you confess that it is an useless shadow that you dispute for and it 's not it but the Sword that doth the deed 8. Is it not an odious defacing of Princes and Magistrates to say That they are bound to Imprison and Ruine a man as a meer Lictor or Executioner of the Judgment of the Clergy or of a Chancellor without ever hearing or trying his Cause and to punish him again because they punisht him before or because he hath not got their pardon 9. If Excommunication be grosly unjust as against Christs Members for doing their duty or for common humane infirmity they do well that set by it no more than it deserveth and pretend not to repent when they do not nor cannot nor ought to repent L. Though you call it no Punishment to keep all the Non-Communicants from publick power and trust I think it will pass for a notable Penalty M. I grant them as much as I can as knowing how little they will yield to and indeed it 's my opinion that to deny all Non-Communicants Magistracy and publick Trust would be to Reform the Common-Wealth in the Foundation if the Keys were but justly exercised But then by this I exclude none but the Intolerable that Neither Communicate with the Approved or the Tolerated Churches L. But Rulers will turn this against you and shut out the Tolerated with the Intolerable M. I cannot help that Must I not tell men what is Right because they will do Wrong L. But you are for having all the Subjects forced to be Catechised and to be Auditors And do you think that this will not force Non-Conformists to hear against their Consciences M. I say not that they should be forced to hear in the Parish Church but either in a Parish Approved or a Tolerated Church How have they a Toleration that may not hear their Tolerated Pastors And he that is not for hearing at all is not to be Tolerated And indeed if those that are no Members in Communion of any Church but meer Catechumens or Auditors should be forced to hear in their own Parishes ordinarily if there be meet Teaching I oppose it not L. But is it noâ— as injurious to force men against their Consciences to Hear as to Communicate M. No the Case is greatly different Nature bindeth all men to learn that they may know what is good or evil to themselves Learning and Knowledge is the common Duty and Interest of mankind and though no man can be forced to Believe and Repent he that is forced to Hear may hear that which may make him Voluntarily Believe and Repent You must force your Children to Learn but not to Communicate I told you that to give a man the Sacrament is to give him a seal'd Pardon and Gift of Christ and Life which no unwilling man is capable of but he may be capable to Hear and Learn And this being only to those that are refusers of all Church-Communion or are uncapable and are in none either Approved or Tolerated what Conscience can such pretend against hearing or against being restrained from crimes and profaning holy things or reproaching Religion though they be not constrained to what they are uncapable of L. I am fully satisfied that your way of dividing all the Subjects into the Approved the Tolerated and the Intolerable is of absolute necessity And to conclude I am satisfied that you Non-Conformists have a Cause so good that you do well to suffer for it but were I in your case I know not what I should do my self The Flesh and World are strong and it 's easier to be convinced that one should be a Martyr than to submit to Martyrdom God be merciful to our weakness M. He trusteth not Christ that thinks he shall be a loser by him and he that will save his life from him by sin shall lose it and he that loseth it for him shall save it L. X. Your 10th for some Toleration will never be endured though the truth is your Reasons for it are unanswerable and your Limitations so strict as prevent most of the Objections that might be made against it M. God's Law requireth forbearing and forgiving one another and receiving the weak in Faith. And they that cannot Tolerate the Tolerable methinks should fear the thoughts of death lest then God will not Tolerate them but cast them out as they cast out his Children L. I confess you convince me that know what most Patrons in England are that it is unfit that all the Peoples Souls should be so far at the mercy of those Patrons that seem to care but little for their own as that no man must have any other or better Pastor than they will choose for him and that all mans duty to care for his Salvation and all the judgment of the Church of Christ from the Apostles dayes till a few hundred years agoe should wholly give place to the pretended right of any fellow that can buy an Advowsoâ— or Presentation And it were to be wisht that it were wholly taken from them and left to the Clergy and People alone the Magistrate being Iudge whom he will Approve or Tolerate But there is no hope that Patrons will let go their supposed right if an Angel from Heaven should speak against it but in all reason they should grant the Communicants that small consequent Vote of Consent or Dissent that you pleaded for but if they will not do that they should give them leave to go to another Parish or to choose a Tolerated Pastor whom they will maintain But men are so set on their own ways that they banish all sense of others case and of what conduceth to the common good M. We can but bring the truth to light and shew a self-wounding people the Balsam that must heal them and stay till God will give them a heart to use it L. But you are so careful not to offend them by â—otioning 〈◊〉 wide a Toleration that I doubt it will do little good For 1. some will scruple some of the Subscriptions or Oaths which you grant shall be imposed on them 2. If all the Tolerated must be responsible for their Doctrine and Ministration it 's two to one but the Rulers to whom they must give account will be so contrary to them that they will have no peace or safety M. How would you have these dangers and inconveniences be avoided An unlimitted Toleration of the Intolerable is it self Intolerable and you can devise no safer limitation The engagements which they are to take tell you the Terms of Toleration and if men will-Preach against those Terms that is against the Christian Faith or the Holy Scripture or their Allegiance to the King or if they use their Meetings to destroy Love and Peace
much against it And what Learned men wrote against it read but Mich. Goldastus his many Volumes of Collections and you may see Yea the Papists are not agreed of the very essential Form and Constitution of their Church and therefore are indeed of several Churches One Party thinks that the supremacy is in the Pope another that it is in a General-Council and a third that it is in the Pope and General-Council agreeing and yet all these so far bear with one another as to cover over the difference with the Name of one Church and to repute each other as True Roman Catholicks Yea more it is by an Allowance of Dissenters or different ways of Worship that the Pope doth chiefly keep up 〈◊〉 Kingdom When any Religious people have fallen into a dissatisfaction with the loose Discipline and Conversation of the Bishops and their Churches the Pope alloweth them to set up by themselves and exercise a stricter Discipline Worship and Conversation of their own devising which he alloweth and no Bishop shall have power to impeach And thus he keepeth them in dependance on himself as the only Defender of their humours inventions and liberties of different ways On such accounts there are multitudes of Sects among them under the name of Friars and Fathers and Sisters c. The Benedictines Augustinians Dominicans Franciscans Iesuits Carthusians c. And all have their several ways of Discipline but it sufficeth that all depend upon one Pope In Rome it self Philip Nerius being a Serious Religious man was unsatisfied with the dead formal way of the Bishops and Mass-priests and to bring men to knowledge and seriousness in Religion he borrowed a Church and set up a Lecture or Course of Serious Extemporate Worship almost like the exercise called Prophecying that Arch-Bishop Grindal was for and the Lord St. Albans Bacon writes for Four Zealous men spent the whole day one in Extemporate praying and one in Preaching and Expounding Scripture and one in telling the people the History of the Church and the Lives and Miracles of Saints and one in Praying again just like those here hated as extemporate Puritans The Bishops said they were proud hypocrites that drew crowds of people after them for reputation of sanctity and they persecuted Nerius and accused them to the Pope and silenced him The silencing Bishop was presently struck with death and Nerius went on Baronius being his second The crafty Pope instead of calling them Fanatick Rognes and Rebels thinks it policy to turn this stream of Pious Zeal into his own channel to drive his own Mill and he rescueth them from the Prelates and alloweth their Exercises and calleth them by the name of the Oratorians and honoureth the leaders so that he drew them to depend on him and Baronius to write those many great Volumes of Ecclesiastical History which have done Rome greater service than any one Writer that I know of in the world and to this day the Oratorians are the most sober Puritan Papists Thus did he make use of the Sectarian singularity of Ignatius Loyola a Souldier turned to Superstition allowing them as others to set up by themselves from under the power of the Bishops in dependance on the Pope alone whereby he hath mastered Emperours and Kings and Kingdoms and made great attempts on Abbassines Greeks yea on Congo Iapan China and the Heathen World. And I have credibly heard that Dr. Tho. Goodwin Philip Nye and Dr. Owen the Leaders of our Independants did tell the King that as the Pope allowed these orders of Religious parties in meer dependance on himself without subjection to the Bishops all that they desired was not to be the masters of others but to hold their own liberty of Worship and Discipline in sole dependance on the King as the Dutch and French Churches do so they may be saved from the Bishops and Ecclesiastical Courts 2. But further Do you forget that the Spaniards by their sacred Cruelty and Inquisition have lost the Low Countries and had almost lost the seventeen Provinces 3. And do you not know that ever since the days that the Arrian Gothes possessed Spain they have been like Ireland a blind superstitious People whose Ignorance most fitteth them for such a kind of Concord And is there not a Concord in their way among the enslaved ignorant Muscovites and among the Turks and many Heathens Satan himself is against the dividing of his Kingdom 4. And do you think that the effect of Spanish and Italian Tyranny and Concord doth answer the cost The Cruelty of their Inquisition hath made their names as odious as of Cannibals or Wolves insomuch that the Lord Bacon thought that an Invasive War against them as the enemies of mankind that violate the Laws of Nature and Nations was just And the many millions that they most cruelly murdered and tormented in Mexico Peru Hispaniola c. among whom were divers Kings do tell the World what are the fruits of their Catholick fury and Arbitrary Government Their Arch-bishop Barth de Casa and their Jesuit Ioseph Acosta eye witnesses of undoubted credit report that which renders them liker devils than men And Gage that lived there among them seconds it And it was no small infamy to their King Philip that he put to death his Son and Heir Charles Are these the patterns that you would have us imitate And as for Italy 1. Read of all their Histories and then name that Country on earth if you can that for many Generations hath been infested with so much Civil War and Blood as Italy hath been yea Rome it self 2. And since policy hath setled it of late in Peace what a Peace is it and of what effect It is said by travellers that no Country more aboundeth with Atheists and Infidels that are indeed of no Religion And truly if it be God and Conscience that you would have banished out of England and Infidelity Sadduceism Hobbists Malignity Drunkenness Whoredom Perjury that you would have take the place I dare say that the Devil will not fight against such Concord but will promote it withal his policy and power by himself and all his agents Ecclesiastical Civil and Military 4. Yet further Why look you not on all the rest of the World as well as Spain and Italy Indeed Iapan restored Concord but it was by so devilish and cruel Torments of Christians and those that would not accuse them as rendreth their names odious to mankind of which Varenius will satisfy you But what France what Ireland and others have got by cruelty I have told you before And though I am far from justifying the Hungarians men that I know not or their case for flying to the Turks for help do you think that the Countries now ruined by War and the many thousands in Austria Silesia Moravia and Hungary killed and taken Captives and the thousands killed in Fight and the Famine that the next year is like to come on the ruined Countries where