gouernement by Bishops not such as you set it forth well let vs procéede Here now we must lay open what power the Pope dooth exercise and what power the Bishops in our Church doo exercise to sée if it be the same or the like Also whether the Bishops doo exercise any power but that which Christ hath giuen to his Church to be exercised by men that is either by Bishops or Presbyteries Touching the Pope he hath vsurped power ouer the whole word of God affirming that the holy scriptures haue no authority as they say vnto vs no certainty for the sense no life but as hee doth giue vnto them And for this cause hee doth take vpon him to expound them as he will contrary to the grammer sense Hee doth take vpon him to dispense with all and to abrogate expresse lawes of God And further he taketh vpon him to make lawes of his owne to bind the fayth and conscience of all men euen as the articles of our fayth doo bind or the expresse doctrine of the sacred Scriptures Hee doth vsurp in sundry things of so high nature apperteming peculiarly to God as that he sheweth himselfe as God The power which the Byshops of our Church do exercise is first in examining approâ—uing and ordaining ministers and authorising them to preach the Gospell Secondly it is in this that they are to sée the orders of the Church for the publick administration duly obserued and so they haue power to excommunicate suspend and depriue c. such as shall transgresse either against doctrine order or in manners Touching lawes they haue not power to make any one not euen in things méete indiff rent neither haue they power to abrogate or to take away any one that is made and by the publick authority of our Church established they can giue no commaundements of their owne That Christ hath giuen power to ordaine ministers and to execute the censures Ecclesiasticall you doo not call into question the controuersie is but by whome this power should bee executed whether by Bishops or by Presbyters If there be an error in the execution of it by Bishops or if there be a fault in the execution by Elders this fault or error dooth not destroy the power it selfe nor yet maketh it Antichristian as ruling ouer the faith and conscience I knowe Master Barrow that ye will here take great exception and say that the chiefe thing is yet behind For as ye charge the presbyteries most heynously in that they take vpon them to decree and ordayne Canons and constitutions vnto which they inioyne obedience in the people so the Bishops execute the lawes and Canons which haue been ordeyned by men though not by themselues the matter is all one Is not this to exercise Lordship and dominion ouer mens faith and conscience About this then must be our speciall question whether Christ hath giuen such a power vnto the Church as to make lawes or Cannons in externall matters which wee call things indifferent And whether the vrging men to kéepe them be not to take away Christian libertie and so to rule ouer the faith and conscience I knowe this question is hard to bee discussed to make euery simple man vnderstand the matter You Master Barrow and Master Greenwood are most blind in it I wish the reader to obserue because it is one maine rocke vpon which ye are runne And crye out what ye can that I like a marked seruant of Antichrist like a graceles man that hath his conscience seared with a hot Iron doo change yee wrongfully yet it shall bee euident that by seeking an Annabaptisticall freedome ye do abridge the power of the Christian Magistrate and of the Church To come therefore vnto the matter that which S. Iames sayth must first stand sure namely That there is one lawgiuer which is able to saue and to destroy Iam. 4. vers 12. Hereupon it is most sure that God alone hath Lordship ouer the conscience of man to binde the faith and conscience For looke what God hath by his lawe commaunded to bee done it is good it is holie no King nor the whole Church can make any part of it euill or commaund it not to be done Looke what God hath forbidden to be done that same is euill and vnholy no King nor yet the whole Church can make it good and holy or command it to bee done I say further that the law of God is so absolutely perfect that there is no righteousnes for men but it is therein conteyned neyther is there any vnrighteousnes but it is therein forbidden Wherefore they which take vpon them to make lawes to binde the conscience eyther by abrogating or by adding commit most high and blasphemous sacriledge of which the whole poperie is to be condemued But now there are certayne middle actions and things which we call indifferent because if we simply respect them in themselues or in their owne nature they bee neither good nor euill In these consisteth one part of Christian libertie to vse or not to vse with knowledge and discretion Now if we respect the very nature of these things no Prince or church can change it as to make them to become necessarily good or necessarily euill in themselues to the conscience And therefore touch not tast not handle not Coloss 2. vers 21. making the outward indifferent things vncleane to the conscience is to vsurpe an Antichristian power ouer the conscience euen agaynst God Also to make those externall things to be of necessitie to the conscience is to lay a yoake of bondage and agaynst this wee are willed to stand fast in the freedome wherewith Christ hath made vs free Gal 5. vers 1. Hetherto Master Barrow I thinke yée will agree with me But now touching the externall vse of these things either for Princes to make politick lawes to commaund the vse or to restraine the vse of them or for the Church to make Cannons and constitutions to commaund or restrayne the vse as shall serue for order and comelines therein lieth our disagreement and therein ye pleade for your Annabaptisticall freedome and confusion I meane that ataxia or ouerthrowe of all order First ye call it a subtill distinction which Master Caluine vseth of the externall or ciuill Court and the Court of conscience in your discouerie pag. 88. And you say Master Caluine hauing very truely set downe that it is heinous presumption in any mortall man to restrayne or make lawes of such things as the Lord hath left in libertie hee straight way least he should keepe backe ciuill Magistrates from receiuing the Gospell inuenteth a politick distinction betwixt the ciuill court and the court of conscience saying that this outward court respecteth men onely and bindeth not the conscience of the doer the other concerneth matters belonging vnto God and therefore bindeth the conscience Thus hath he both lost and entangled himselfe and vtterly ouerthrowne all his former doctrine pag. 93. In pag. 247. of
in England and planted a true Church And therefore if you deale rightly you must proue against vs. I haue shewed that popery did not vtterly destroy the visible Church And there be at this day multitudes that so walke in the holy fayth that no man is able to accuse them And therefore if either all or the most part of Schismatikes were not obstinate cauillers their mouthes might be stopped for euer Thus much might fuffice agaynst that you affirme our people neuer had any entrance to be vnder the couenant and so to stand the visible Church but to be as heapes of prophane heathen but that your matter reacheth further then against the assemblies in England condemning other Churches which professe the holy Gospel And least some may think that in this poynt I charge ye but by some hard collection in so horrible presumption as to condemne all Christian Churches I will recite the wordes which you haue set downe in your other booke pag. 33. where after long discourse agaynst the reasons which Master Caluine vseth both out of the olde and new Testament to proue that neither the worship it selfe nor the faythfull are defiled by the company of the open wicked you speake thus This and such like detestable stuffe hath Master Caluine in his ignorance partly to confute that damnable sect of Annabaptists which fantastically dreame vnto theÌ„selues a Church without spot in this life and for euery transgression that ariseth are ready to leaue forsake the felowship of the Church without due and orderly reproofe Partly also is this stuffe brought to defend his owne rash and disorderly proceedings at Geneua whilest hee at the first dash made no scruple to receiue all the whole state euen all the prophane ignorant people into the bosome of the Church to administer the Sacraments vnto them which confuse route could not fit with Christs heauenly gouernement neither could it by any meanes agree vnto them in this estate But that monstrous disorders and haynous enormityes dayly ensued thereof whereby this their Church became a iust reproch vnto all men euen to those wicked Heretikes yea that which is worse and more to be lamented it became a miserable president and pernitious example euen vnto all Europe to fall into the like transgression as the confused estate of all those regions where the Gospell is thus disorderly taught declareth Let the Reader here consider Master Barrow what a worthie Champion you â—re become for the Papists for Heretickes and Schismaticks agaynst all the Churches which professe the Gospell and agaynst all their teachers What was Master Caluine to bee regarded if he were so ignorant so rash and so disorderly in his doings How miserable was his case that he must be so pernitious an example to the ruine of many What is or what hath the Church of Geneua been and together with the assemblies of England all Churches in Europe but heapes of prophane multitudes no better then heathen or dogs if your words be true True Christ they haue none for they fit not his gouernment nor his gouernment them as you say But Master Barrow as the Churches and their ministers haue been able haue iustly defended themselues though not from all faults because there is no Church so pure agaynst the wisest and learnedst reuiling Rabsakaes the Hereticks and Schisinaticks so must you thinke that they shall be able to withstand two or thrée which are so ignorant in some grounds of religion as that their bookes are a bundle or rather a dunghill of absurdities Whom shal you euer perswade that hath any true light that your knowledge so farre passeth the learned of all Churches Were it not honour enough for ye to triumph ouer the ministers of the Church of England whom so often in disdayne you terme learned Priests but ye must be generall conquetors like Alexander the great Faine you would seeme to bee farre from the Annabaptists but how néere you are vnto them euen in their tents all that haue skill doo see Well then to conclude this poynt he that will finde a true Church with which he may ioyne himselfe he must not seeke it in the publike assemblies either in England Scotland Geneua or any region of Europe for by your iudgement they be all prophane heapes but he must seeke the fellowship and ioyne with the Donatists of England Now to the second part of the assumption where you say that the Church of England hath power to cast foorth none by excommunication I am of the minde that Christ hath giuen such a power to his Church and also doo take it that the Church of England is not boyd thereof But you condemne all excommunication which is not executed by an Eldership and the people of euery particular assemblie If excommunication be onely to bee so executed then how could Esra with the Elders and Princes of Israel publish an excommunication generall against euery one that should not within three dayes come vp to Ierusalem Esra 10. vers 8. And where doo you proue that excommunication is to be executed vpon any but for contumacie and contempt of the Church Doo you hold that a man which doth repent him for his adulterie these heresie or such like and is cast downe in sorrowe is yet to be deliuered vp to Satan If not why doo you vpbrayd that there is none cast foorth among vs but for contumacie In the next place you take vpon you to confute and cut downe foure false expositions as you say of Math. 18. vers 17. Tell the Church The first sort take the word Church for the Pope the second for the Archbishops and Bishops which exercise this power for the whole Church the third for the companie of the Elders apart from the people which they call the Consistorie the fourth are they which would haue the people excommunicate without the Elders The two first sorts that is the Pope and the Bishops doo depend you say vppon one line and build their preheminence vpon the promise made to the Apostle Peter Math. 16. vers 18. 19. where the keyes of the kindome of heauen are giuen him And vpon the Apostle Paul his example who deliuered Hymeneus and Alexander vnto Satan Timoth. 5. 10. You are so learned and skilfull Master Barrow yea so trustie and true that wee must holde them for Oracles that doo proceede out of your mouth although indeed they be neuer so false as shall appeare Touching the place in Mat. 16. for the keyes giuen vnto Peter it is agreed vpon by all parts that there is a power giuen to be exercised in the Church The disagréement is chiefly about this to whom it is giuen The Pope with his adherents sayth it was giuen onely vnto Peter and his successors He sayth further that Peter was Bishop of Rome that there is his chaire and that this power is annexed to that chaire and so the Pope alone is to haue it and from him all other are to participate which
shall exercise any part of it in the Church The Bishops of the church of England and they that maintaine the government by presbyteries doo both alike condemne that challenge of the Pope as an vsurpation Both parts affirming that although our Sauiour doo speake onely to Peter saying to thee I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen yet he giueth him nothing but that which he gaue vnto the other Apostles This they prooue by Ioh. 20. where he breathed vpon them and sayd ioyntly to them all As the father sent me so I send you and whose sinnes ye shall forgiue they are forgiuen c. With what face can you say then Master Barrow that the Bishops and the Pope depend vpon one line and build their preheminence vpon that promise made vnto Peter You might truelier haue sayd that the Bishops and presbyteries depend vppon one line for their preheminence not only for that they expound those places Math. 16. and Ioh. 20. alike but also that the Bishops challenge none other power then the presbyteries do For the controuersie betweene the Bishops and the presbyteries is whether of them by Gods word for the benefit of the Church are to exercise that power which Christ hath left vnto her The one side doth affirme that by Gods word the execution of this her power doth belong to the Bishops as being most properly the Apostles successors and therefore do hold that the Church of England hath done right in reseruing this power vnto them The Churches which hold the other gouernment do affirme that when our Sauiour saith tell the Church it is not meant tell the Bishop or those which are ioyned with them but tell the Church is tell the Consistorie which consisteth of Pastors Teachers and Elders chosen from among the people This Consistorie say they is to haue and to exercise that power and iurisdiction which the Bishops do hold Now Master Barrow as you say the gouernment thus by the Bishops is popish so you grieuously condemne the Consistorie affirming that it is irregular that it hath no ground or warrant in Gods word but vtterly subuerteth all order and openeth a wide gap vnto all licentiousnes c. Then come the fourth sort which expound these words tell the church wrong And those are they which say tel the church is tell the congregation of people without the Elders Here you shew some skill also to confute which is but to fight with your owne shadow for this fourth sort I thinke haue neuer been heard of but among your selues And in déede your heauenly patterne whatsoeuer ye speake of pastors teachers and Elders is nothing else but an heape of people without any of these officers For was it euer heard of among men that there bee offices in which there is no power or authority at all annexed vnto the officers which execute them not euen in the things wherein their offices consist aboue those which haue not the same offices For if it be true which you say that the greatest minister hath no more power to bind or loose the sinnes of the least member then the said member hath to bind or loose his Or if Christ speake to all euen to the wemen Iohn 20. whose sinnes ye forgiue they are forgiuen c. If the word haue no more efficacie to worke faith deliuered by the ministrie or the Sacrament to seale the promises haue no more power deliuered by a minister then when the same word is vttered and those Sacraments deliuered by any man or by any woman or if euery young man yea euery maide which is of the assembly haue equall power with any to excommunicate we would see wherein the power of any of your officers consisteth where all or euery one haue equall power there all are officers where all are officers we may say that in déed none are publick officers This is Master Barrowes heauenly patterne by which he hath conuinced all our Churches and found them so obstinate for reiecting it that they be quite separate from Christ Master Barrow will say he spake not of the Sacraments for he faith a minister onely is to deliuer them And I say one part of the power of loosing is by the Sacraments in as much as they seale our faith The power of discipline exercised by the presbytory as it is in the Churches of France Scotland Geneua the Low Countries c. you most grieuously condemne the reader shall see your own words in your other booke page 189. and 190. thus you speake These men in stead of this grosse Antichristian gouernement c. would bring in a new adulterate forged gouernement in shew or rather in despite of Christs blessed gouernement which they in their pride rashnes ignorance and ensualitie of their fleshly hearts most miserably iunouate corrupt and peruert c. Also page 166. you tearme Classical and Prouinciall synods and counsels a diuelish forgery Here you say the fault and pride of the Elders is intollerable Also you say that many were the reasons and more the inconueniences that might bee alleaged against this presumptuous irregular consistorie which hath no ground in the word of God but vtterly subuerteth destroyeth and corrupteth the whole order and Communion of the Churches openeth a wide gap vnto all licenciousnes and prophannes of manners c. Thus the Church of England is no Church of Christ because of their gouernement by Bishops In other places where the gouernement is by presbytreies not onely the people by your sentence are prophane multitudes but their ministers proud rash ignorant and in the sensuality of their fleshly hearts haue corrupted Christes gouernement in despite thereof haue set vp a diuelish forgery and open the gap vnto all prophanenesse c. O Master Barrow what reproaches are these against all churches and their ministers I must néeds tell you againe that there is not any which hath any sparke of Christian modesty but will say God hath not sent ye your sufferings are not to be gloried in you are but Rabasaka that thus reproach the church of Christ What Schismaticks haue gone beyond ye Now followeth the suspension from the Sacraments You must vnderstand that al your friuolous cauils about this and all your reproaches reach not alone vnto the Church of England but vnto all the reâ—ormed Churches which practise a suspention Master Beza in his booke against Erastus page 10. sheweth the vse and practise of it not onely in their Church but in the auncient Churches Also page 124. he proueth it by the example of Moses sister and of those which were restrained a whole month from eating the passeouer these ceased not in the meane time to be accounted members of the congregation When the repentance is not throughly testified or the rest stand in néed of some terror as wel as the party that hath offended then is there vse of suspention To proue that neither the worship of God nor yet the godly are polluted by the
which would not yeeld to receiue any fruite or comfort by their prayers I take it Master Barrow you haue the letter If you haue it shew it vnto some honest man that may speake for you and defend ye not to be past shame in forging such a sense If ye haue it not I can let ye haue the perfect copie of it and will let any friend ye haue see it They are so far off in the letter from giuing the least suspition that they doubt of our Church and ministrie as that they pronounce it your heathenish opinion whereby ye denie vs to be Christians What preachers sent vnto ye I know not but that they refrayned to haue conference with ye perceiuing vpon the sight of your little paper as yee say that they could not defend their estate doe yee indeede think still that they tooke it to be the roaring of a Lyon could they not discerne thinke ye betwéene rudere and rugire Your multitudes and armies of wordes being but vayne â—anglings I will passe by and come directly to the substance of the matter And because our ministrie is ordayned by Bishops which is by one part of their gouernement your third and fourth accusation shall bee handled ioyntly as it were vnder one In page 104. Ye wonder as ye say that in this florishing estate of our Church which ouerfloweth with so great learning aboundeth with so many writers that not one of them should vndertake to proue the ministry of their Church directly by the rules of Gods word in their office entrance administration and maintenance These may very well be some of those swelling words of banitie which Saint Peter speaketh of for who if he know not before the vaine insolencie of Master Barrow and his fellow reading this wonder would not iudge them to bee men very deepely read Haue they not read ouer thinke ye all the learned writers of this age wondring that there is not one among them all that hath vndertaken to proue our ministrie directly by the rules of Gods word Is it not pitty that there be no moe learned writers that these men might search them also to haue this poynt handled If you haue now done wondring Master Barrow giue vs leaue a little to wonder The Papists denying that the churches which haue reiected popery haue any ministry and requiring proofe thereof many learned writers both of other Churches and of our owne nation haue vndertaken this matter and haue so directly proued our ministry by the rules of Gods word as that the Papists haue no cause to glorie Now there be two things here which we may wonder at the one how it should be possible that such swelling insolency could be found in the hearts of men grosely ignorant as that hauing read almost nothing and vnderstanding lesse by sundry degrees yet openly vaunt as if they had read all and could finde no such matter The other how men of so contrarie disposition should vse the very same weapon against the Church for this is one weapon of the Papists and now in your hands Ye haue no ministrie of Christ If the reader shal here thinke that I grate too hard vpon Master Barrow who directeth his spéech but against the ministry of our Church the matter is farre otherwise as I will make it appeare for first he denieth the ministry of all Churches in expresse words affirming that there is no ministry in all Europe nor in all these knowne parts of the world Secondly we are to note that although the reformed Churches doo differ sundry of them each from others in the manner of the calling and ordination of ministers yet the defence which the learned writers doo make is generally for the ministry of all those Churches as well for the ministry of the Church of England as of others which haue forsaken Antichrist and preach the Gospell Therefore Master Barrow read all the learned writers which haue stood to maintaine against the Papists that Master Luther Master Caluine Master Bucer Martyre the rest were ministers of Christ and seeing ye will needs fight against God and his truth try your strength and see how ye can gratefie the Church of Rome in ouerthrowing that which all her learnedest patrons are not able to shake more then they be able to shake or remoue a mountaine The ministry of our Church is not you say the ministry of the Gospell or the ministry of Christ but the ministry of Antichrist comming in the life and power of the beast Your reason is that we are the children of the Bishops the Bishops are the creatures of the Pope Against this I did alleage that the popish Bishops haue their consecration and power from the Pope they sweare obedience vnto him to maintaine his dignity religion lawes and ceremonies And also with him doo exercise a power ouer the faith and conscience of men But the Bishops of the Church of England haue not their ordination consecration or power from the Pope but from our Church which hath renounced Antichrist The Bishops of England acknowledge no subiection to the Pope but by anoath haue renounced his vsurped power and tyranny The Bishops of England are not ordayned to vphold and maintaine the religion or lawes of Antichrist but quite contrary they promise and professe to aduaunce the Gospell of Iesus Christ c. They vsurpe not a Lordship ouer the faith and conscience of men Let vs see now what ye bring against this It helpeth not our Bishops ye say any thing that they haue broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope renounced his yoake euen his vsurped power and tyrannie seeing they vsurpe and retaine if not the same yet as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope exercising their authoritie and commaundements contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and of their prince page 113. If it be thus our case is hard but Master Barrow remember the old Prouerb a lier needeth to haue a good memorie for in page 181. and 182 you haue quite forgotten what ye had set downe here for there yee doo affirme that the Bishops which died for the Gospell were godly blessed Martyres of whose happie and blessed estate ye doo not doubt Your reason is for that they were not conuinced but did exercise that power ignorantly I pray ye tell me Master Barrowe could they bee godly and had but broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope Could they be godly men exercising as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope Yea could they bee true thristians exercising their commaundementes and power contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and man Or could ignorance excuse them in these matters Then tell vs why the Pope might not be a good Christian also before he was conuinced Which way dooth the whéele turne now Master Barrow Ye can neuer be able to bring both ends together in these yee must either condemne those Martyrs or else make the