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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14461	The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe; Disputations chrestiennes. English	Viret, Pierre, 1511-1571.; Calvin, Jean, 1509-1564.; Brooke, John, d. 1582.	1579 (1579)	STC 24776; ESTC S119193	490,810	627

colde coniectures Nowe Iesus Christ who is the infallible veritie woulde not that we should builde the articles of our fayth vppon coniectures but vpon the expresse veritie For sith that he and his Apostles doe witnesse that they haue man●fested all that which was necessary to our saluation hath commended to vs so much the loue towards our bretheren it is not lyke to be true but is repugnant to the witnesse of Iesus Christ that they haue spoken vnto vs so obscurely haue giuen vnto vs onely some coniectures of this matter and of the loue that we owe vnto the dead the which the Priestes doe wrest it more then that which is due vnto those that be liuing Hillarius Bicause that Iesus Christ hath spoken so obscurely therefore they would make commentaries gloses for to declare it bicause that it bringeth vnto them more profit Thomas Thou hast opened a place Theophilus of which I would gladly be resolued that is to say of the preaching to the dead For to tell the truth I haue oftentimes dreamed mused after it bicause that I considered y according to the witnesse of the Scripture n●ne can haue saluation but thorowe the faith in Iesus Christ Now if we do compare those which haue knowne Iesus Christ and haue beleeued in him with those which haue not beleeued and which haue neuer hard him speake the number of those here shal be very little in respect of others Wherefore it followeth that there should be a merua●lous number of the damned that the mercy of God shall not be so great as his rigor iudgement Now it is straunge to mans reason to iudge that God will dampne so many chie●●y sith y he hath had as many which haue not known Iesus Christ for want that one hath not shewed him vnto them Wherefore me thinketh that the opinion of those héere is not much out of reason And I would gladly know what places they can haue of the holy Scripture for to proue it for I will accord and agrée almost sooner to that then to the opinion of Purgatory Theophilus Thou hast moued a question the whiche cannot be expressed and absolued in few wordes For we must first declare what knowledge of Iesus Christ is necessary vnto saluation and how it hath bene alwayes preached from the beginning of the world among all people nations And how it hath ben sufficiently manifested vnto the elect for their saluation to the reprobate for their condempnation Insomuch that they are all inexcusable they cannot alledge ignorance sufficient for to excuse them And it is not néedfull that they haue any more preaching after this lyfe But I had rather that we would omit and leaue off that matter vntill an other time that we maye speake more amply of it and better to satisfie the question which is made dayly touching the saluation or dampnation of our predecessors which haue liued in errour and ignoraunce Yet neuerthelesse bicause that the places which we haue accustomed to alledge for y preaching to the dead may also serue to the matter at this present time I am contented y we do entreat of them for to declare that they are not firme inough for to proue the same nor the Limbe nor Purgatory in like manner to which the others would make thē serue But for that that it may be that Eusebus doth put them foorth amongst his defenses it were better that we do delay that matter vntil such time as he bringeth it in by course in following his matter by order or if be do it not thou maist put me in remembrance Thomas Yet neuerthelesse before that Eusebius pursueth the other places that he hath determined to put foorth or open I wil propound vnto him an argument concerning the point of which we haue entreated off that is to say of the remission forgiuenes of sinnes in the other world Whervpon I demaund of thée Eusebius when Iesus Christ did giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen vnto his Church as wel in y person of S. Peter as vnto al y church generally that he declare the power of them of the ecclesiastical ministry hath he not sayd namely That which thou shalt binde in earth shall be bound in heauen that which thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen He sayth not That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde in heauen or in Purgatory or in hell or in the other world or in the other life and in an other earth but speaketh of this héere in the which the keys haue ben giuen in the which the Euangelical ministry hath his vigor and strength I wil not reiterate that that you said of the forgiuenes of fault paine For al that is against you But me thinketh that the Pope and those that haue receiued the power of him doe verye euill vnderstand their office willing to extend and stretch the power of their keyes pardons and indulgences vnto the other world and vnto the dead which haue their estate a part and seperated from ours and are no more vnder the iudgement of the church which is in earth which hath not to regard but on the liuing Eusebius Alexander of Ales Gabriel Biel haue very wel satisfied y obiectiō For they do answere y the dead ought to be accōpted to be yet vpō the earth as touching y absolutiō or ligatiō binding or vnbinding vntil y they are passed entred into the kingdome of heauen For whilest y the soules are in purgatory they are vpon the earth sith that they are not yet in heauē that they are yet of the Church militant not of y triumphāt Furthermore euen as those which are in the earth are yet in the way and not at the end full marke so are those which are deteined in Purgatory They are in passing for to goe to the countrey as touching the purgation by the which they are purged passe to the country as by y way Although y they are at the ende marke as touching the confirmation For they can no more sinne nor merit Furthermore all the while that they are ayded receiue comfort of the temporall earthly goods by prayers one may well holde accompt them for to be yet of this world sith that they doe communicate with vs of the goods which are there Hillarius He will accompt then of the dead as of the Monkes which are dead to the world in some pointes but not in other some They are dead to the world as to that that they doe serue and profit no person no more then the dead But they are not dead as to eating and drinking and to other carnall workes For in y there is not a people which doe better liue in the world nor which are more of the world Euen so shall it be of the dead They shal be dead to vs for to giue vs

necessary for our bodies and soules Can he or will hée not dooe that without those thinges wilt they binde and tye his grace vertue and power and inclose shut it in wax salt and water as they doe require by their prayers If those thinges be not charmes sorceries and enchauntmentes I knowe not what we may call charmes sorceries enchauntmentes Hillarius When they do coniure and blesse their welles and fontes christening places they gape ouer the water and blowe in it as though they had the holy Ghost within their throate and that they would shut him in it It is very néedefull that that holy Ghost whome they doe plunge and shutte in that water can swim or otherwise he shall bee in daunger of drowning Theophilus Euen as they doe with the water war so doe they with the fire and incenie vppon Easter euen when they blesse their Pascall of wax Eusebius Sith that all that is done vnto the honour of God can it be but good Theophilus Howe can it be to the honour of God to attribute vnto the creatures the honour which belōgeth vnto him Or to shut vppe and lymit his grace vertue and power by them And to ouerthrowe and tourne vpside downe altogether the order of God and the vse for which hée hath created them for hée hath not created the water salt fire the ware for to purifie the soules for to oriue away the Diuelles and for to be remedyes to all corporall and spirituall diseases But he hath created the water for to drincke for to wash awaye the filthinesse of the body for to refresh sprinckle and helpe the naturall necessities for which God hath ordayned them As much must wée vnderstande of the fire salte and ware and all other creatures whiche cannot serue vs but accordinge to their naturall properties and according to the ordinaunce of god Wherefore whosoeuer altereth and chaungeth that order of nature and vse of the creatures otherwise then he ought attributinge vnto them any other propertie then that whiche God hath gyuen vnto them hée blasphemeth God and is worthy to be taken for a Sorcerer and a Magitian For wherein doth a good Phisitian and a Philosopher differ from a Charmer and Magitian but in this that those doe followe the order of God in his creatures and their naturall dysposition and those héero doe peruerte and ouerthrowe it and wyll by woords charmes and coniurations chaunge their nature and bring them to other effectes then God hath appointed them Eusebius By thy reasons thou doest also abolysh the vse of the Sacramentes Theophilus That is an other thinge forasmuche as it is ordeyned of GOD who maye make hys creatures to serue to what it pleaseth hym For hée which is the Lord may vse them eyther after that order as hée hath appointed them of nature or miraculously aboue nature Although that who so would attribute vnto the water of Baptisme or vnto the breade and wine in the Lordes supper that whiche you doe attribute vnto your waters saltes fires inceuse and waxe shoulde bée greatly to be rebuked For all the vertue and efficacie of the Sacramentes doe depende of the promise of God of which you haue nothinge in your ceremonies invented and forged by your owne sence and vnderstanding wythout the worde of God no more then the Magicians and enchaunters haue in their witchinges and inuocations Wherefore we cannot repute and take such superstitions followinge the manner forme as you doe holde but for such as those haue bene of whiche you haue taken the example Hillarius But how can it bée pleasing and agréeable to God to forsake and renounce Iesus Christ his sonne and the Christianitie for to make themselues Panims or Iewes Tell me Eusebius if thou doe not thincke that the Chaldeans and Persians are worthy to be accompted and taken for Idolaters to baue had the fire in so great admiration that they haue worshiped it as God Eusebius Who doubteth of that Hillarius Now what reason haue you for to excuse your selfe of that same Idolatry more lawfully then they Theophilus That Idolatry is the most auncient which hath bene almost amongest men chiefely before that there was any vse of Images And I doubte not but that wée referre it vnto the Idolatry of the fire followinge also the opinion of Sainct Hierome and of Lyra that which Moses calleth Vr of the Chaldees For notwithstanding that that name is taken for the place wherein Tarch the Father of Abraham dwelled yet neuerthelesse it is very lyke that that place hath taken his name of that fire which the Chaldeans worshipped as wée sée dayly that many Townes and Villages dooe take their name of the Gods Sainctes and Patrons whiche are there adored honoured as are S. Claudus S. Hippolite Sainct Denis Sainct Iames others innumerable For Vr signifieth in the Hebrew and Chaldee tongue fire and furnayse And vnto that agréeth well that which is spoken off in the booke of Iosua that Tareh the Father of Abraham was an Idolater although there bee no mencion made that hée worshypped Images and Idolls But it was bicause he was defiled and infected with that Idolatry of the Chaldees for the which Abraham departed from his countrey in not worshypping the fire in stéede of the true God. Hillarius That Idolatry hath not bene onely among the Chaldees and Persians But it is also spredde abroade amonge other Nations who of longe time haue in lyke manner worshypped the fire vnder the name of Vesta who was in greate honour and estimation amonge the Troyans before the warre of Troy and from thence hath bene wyth the other Gods caryed into Italy by Aeneas and so came vppe the custome to kéepe a continuall fire in his Temple at Rome within a Bore or Pyxe as they doe nowe the holye hoaste For that cause the Poetes manye times dooe call it the Troyans fire and the fire of Laomedon the founder and buylder of troy The Greekes also dyd the lyke in Athens and Delphos And Seruius wituesseth that they kept it also in the Temple of Iupiter and of Minerua by which they woulde vnderstande the earthly heauen and the celestiall fire And St●abo hath written almost the lyke that is to say that there was an olde Temple of Minerua Poliade in which was kept a Lampe continually burning and there was a Couent of Nounes I thincke that Pope Sabinianus dyd take example of the samo when that he constituted and ordeined that Lampes shoulde be continually kept burninge in the Temples as Platine and Volaterran dooe witnesse Theophilus If they had the lyke that of which Sainct Augustine maketh mencion which was inextinguible in a certeine Temple of Venus whiche the Panims had they woulde make of it a great myracle and would esteeme it for a goodly relike For he sayth that it contimeth alwaies burning in the aire abroad without euer being put out or quenched eyther with the winde

beleeue that thou art not ignorant how your owne doctours do answere to that place Among which Holcot repugneth Saint Augustine saying that his exception is not sufficient and that the man which knoweth Iesus Christ may be saued without baptisme by an other meanes then by martyrdome But which is more he affirmeth that the man which beléeueth himselfe to be perfectly baptised yet neuerthelesse is not shal be out of all daunger of dampnation and saith that that saith shoulde s●rue hun to saluation although that it were builded vpon a falsitie But what is he among vs which is perfectly assured whether he be baptised or no. Howe can we knowe it but by the witnesse of an other Therefore the ma●ster of the sentences aunswereth vppon the ob●●ctions made by thée that we must vnderstande the wordes of saint Augustine according to the declaration that he hath giuen in other places in which he entreateth that matter more amplie And therefore saith he we must vnderstande those thinges of those which haue had the time and leasure for to be baptised haue not done it For if any hauing faith and charitie woulde be baptised and cannot being ouertaken with necessitie the benignitie liberalitie of y most puissant God recompenseth y which wanted in the sacrament For when he may pay if he do not pay he abideth bound But when he cannot and yet neuertheles he is willing to do it God which hath not tyed his power vnto the sacraments imputeth it not vnto him I haue alledged vnto thée the very wordes euen as they be written in the booke of the maister of the sentences which yet proueth by saint Augustine that the inuisible sactification hath béene in some and hath profited them without the visible sacramentes saying after this manner the visible sanctification the which is done by the visible sacrament may be without the inuisible but it cannot profite Yet we must not neuerthelesse contemne and dispise the visible sacrament For the contemner of the same cannot be sactified inuisib●●e And notwithstanding that Holcot alloweth that which others haue written of the baptisme of bloude he declareth yet neuerthelesse sufficiently ynough that he which without being baptised sheddeth his bleude for the name of Iesus Christ is not baptised by that bloude which hath béene shed But that the Church holdeth him for baptised bicause that by the same he hath sufficiently witnessed that he hath not dispised baptisme but that he woulde willingly receiue it if it had béene possible for him Sith that he hath shewed such faith in the Gospell of Iesus Christ Eusebius I graunt that thou saiest as touching men of age vnto whome the faith and repentaunce doe recompence the want of baptisme But of young infantes it is otherwise For sith that there is neither ●aith nor repentance in them they cannot be saued without baptisme Therefore saith the maister of the sentences that those which dye without baptisme yea though one bring them to bee baptised shal bee dampned and doth proue it by saint Augustine saying holde this for a suertie and doubt nothing at all of it that not onely men hauing already reason but also the young infants which begin to liue in their mothers belly and doe there die without the sacrament of holy baptisme which is giuen in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost or those which without the same doe passe out of this worlde after that they are borne shal be punished with eternall fire For although that they haue not had sinne by theyr proper acte and woorke yet they haue neuerthelesse drawen vnto them by their conception and natiuitie the dampnation of originall sinne Theophilus Thou hast nowe beaten downe the Lymbe of the young infants For if the wordes of Saint Augustine be true according to the sence whiche thou giuest vnto them the little infantes dying without baptisme are all dampned and punished in eternall ●re They are then in hell Wherefore it is not nowe néede to forge and make for them a Lymbe By that meanes all the doctrine of your doctours is here ouerthrowne And therefore they haue not all allowed that sentence but haue iudged it too rigorous and cruell in such sort that some for that cause haue called S. Augustine the hangman of the young In●ants notwithstanding that he is well worthie that they doe speake of him more reucrently For I do not thinke that he himselfe would that these wordes shoulde be taken after such r●gour and extremitie And therefore it is néede to consider the occasions which might haue moued him to write after that sort For if the necessitie and the impossibilitie excuseth the great ones wherefore shall the little ones ●e lesse excusable which haue yet more excuse then the great ones may haue For when they dye being young or in their mothers bellie or out of it what fault then was in them that they were not baptised hath God conceiued more greater hatred against them then against the great ones although the baptisme of the water shoulde be asmuch necessarie vnto saluation as you do make it if there be any exception for the ene by what right reason may it be denyed vnto the others when the cause the excuses are equall But we ought to consider that in the t●●e of Saint Augustine there might be a great sort of people which had not the Sacraments in such estimation and reuerence as they ought to haue as wée haue proued it in our time in which some haue so much attributed vnto it that they haue made of the visible signes a Iesus Christ and an Idole The others to the contrarie do holde them as signes without vertue and efficacie no more then the signes which the souldiours do beare for to shewe what Prince they do serue Hillarius But haue we not had Anabaptistes which would baptise them selues againe and haue co●demned the baptisme of young Infants willing to deferre it vntill they should come vnto the age of discretion Theophilus Let vs not doubt that from the time of Saint Augustine but that there be many founde more negligent then they ought to he touching the sacramēts the which thing hath cōpelled the aun●ients to magnifie them so much And therefore those which are come after them not considering the causes wherefore they did the same haue taken the wordes rawly without a fit interpretation and without taking beede to their manner of speaking rethorically and figuratiuely which hath beene the cause that they haue made Idols as though the vertue of Iesus Christ and of the Christian religion were in those visible signes Wée cannot deny but that in the time of those good auncient fathers many after that they had knowen the Gospell tarryed not long time to cause themselues to be baptised yea often times vntill the latter end of their life Nowe they did the same some through negligence others bicause of

that power but of him Wherefore one might rightly say of him The Lord the God of Gods. For there is not a Priest of how smal learning soeu●r he be which according to their doctrine but dareth to attribute vnto himselfe the power to make Gods. For which I will haue none other witnesse but their booke intituled Stella clericorum in which are written such woordes O howe venerable is the dignitie of the Priests betwéene whose handes the sonne of God is incarnate as in the wombe of the Virgin And afterwardes speaking●●n the person of the Priest Hee which hath created mée hath giuen me power to create him Hée which hath created me without mée is created by the meanes of mée Afterwardes hée concludeth sith then that the Priest is of so greate a dignitie that hée is the creator and maker of his creator and of euery creature it is not conuenient to loose or damne him They do● finde it inconuenient that God should damp●e the priests bicause that they are the creators of hun And yet neuerthelesse the popes may wel condempne the popes yea out of this world sithence that they are before God their souereigne Iudge which are not onely priests but which is more doe make the priests Doest thou finde this straunge Thomas Thomas To speake the truth those Gods doe handle very euill the one the other Hillarius I doubt not but that which pope Stephen hath done vnto Formosus doth not séeme straunge vnto thée But pope Sergius the third hath done vnto him worse Thomas Then that poore soule Formosus was most vnhappy after his death They haue done against the prouerbe which forbiddeth to fight with the dead Hillarius Thou maist haue well sayd it if thou hadst heard the history all out The crueltie of L. Sylla against Marius was not so great But I thincke neuerthelesse but that those popes haue takē their patron vpon him For so did he cause Marius to be taken out of y earth after y he was dead to be auenged of him And Sylla fearing that one should not doe to him the like after he was dead commaunded that his body should be burned For vntill his time the famelly of which he came off accustomed to bury the bodyes of the dead and had not as yet burned them as others did But for to retourne vnto Sergius thou must vnderstande First that he hath so reproued all the actes of Formosus that those whom Formosus did make priestes shoulde retourne againe to take their orders of him iudging those vnworthy to be priests whom Formosus had made if they did not the same And not being content to haue done that dishonour vnto Formosus after his death caused his body to be taken out of the sepulchre againe and did not onely cut off the fingers or the hand as Stephen his predecessor did but did cut of his head as a malefactor euen so as though he were a liue Afterwardes did cast the body into the stud ●yber as vnworthy of buriall and humaine honour ●hou canst not now denie Theophilus but that the popes haue power ●oth ouer the Gods and ouer the quick and the dead And for more greater confirmation hereoff they haue their Canons which do giue vnto them power to iudge not onely the quicke but also ouer the dead and to excommunicate accurse the hereticks but which to more Pope Boniface hath better declared his diuine power against S. Harman whose body and bones he caused to bee digged vp whō those of Ferrara haue honoured accompted for a Saint already the space of xx yeares condempned him for an heretick and burned him As some say that they haue also done y like of wikchf who neuertheles was of better learning thē his aduersaries But that same is alwaies common to all the papistical sect as de Roma the defiler of the faith hath well confirmed it those yeares past in two poore faithfull Christians at Aix in Prouence Hée hath stocked imprisoned them so much hath so scorched and burned their feete anckles within their bootes which he filled with grease and so putting to fire that those poore people martyrs of Iesus Christ could not tary the time to be altogether burned but they died whilest that he was absent were buried by y hangmā in vnhallowed ground bicause that they were accompted by them for heretickes Yet neuerthelesse that cruel tyrant de Roma could not be contented with all that but was very angry bicause they buried them caused thē to dig thē vp againe to burne the being dead sith y he could not burne thē being aliue On y contrary euen as Boniface hath caused this S. Ha●man to be digged vp to be condemned for an hereticke bu●ned him who neuerthelesse was accōpted for a Saint● he hath also canonised S. Lewes who was of y bloud roial who as some men say was professed of y order of S. Fraunces Also in like manner pope Felix Gregory haue ordeined that one should celebrate yearely feasts sacrifices in y memory of y martyrs Now what other thing is y but to iudge thē saints to deify them But to y end y euery one do not attribute vnto themselues the power to make Gods as the popes that euery one do not honor him y cōmeth in their fantasy Pope Alexander y third hath ordeined y no man should be holden and accompted for a Saint and that no diuine honour shoulde be attributed vnto him except that he were first inrolled among the Saintes and canonised by the commaundement and ordinaunce of the Apostolical seate That commaundement and degrée is written in the decretals in the title of the reliques of Saints Sith then that he canoniseth and maketh Saintes afterwards when they are made he vnmaketh them it followeth then that he maketh and vnmaketh the Gods that he is Iudge both of the quicke and of the dead For all that is God vnto man to whom he giueth the honour due vnto god Now we cannot denie but that the superstitious and Idolaters do giue vnto their Saintes and vnto dead men the ●onor due vnto God alone Wherefore it followeth that they are their Gods as well as to the Idolaters those whom they haue accompted for Gods which neuerthelesse were dead men which haue ben canonised by the kings Princes and Senates and the cōmon errour of the people euen as the pope the superstitious do yet vse at this day Sith then that the pope maketh and vnmaketh such Gods which are dead men and iudgeth condempneth and absolueth them it followeth then that he is the Iudge of the quicke the dead the which is also declared by the example of y Emperour Henry y fourth who was excōmunicated afterwards was put into a cruel prison in y citie of Liege by his proper and onely sonne in the which he was strangled and so as

wel assured of it But if that which they do write of the buls and pardons be true it is great felly for the papistes to bestowe any more any pennye nor halfe pennye neither for the funerals nor for y masses vigils nor other suffrages for y dead that they should reiect a● other manner of doings for to hold themselues onely to y buls pardons and to buy them for to draw the s●ules from Purgatory For it should not cost them so much should haue sooner dispatched ri● away the poore soules from Purgatory For if the Pope hath in his hands the treasure of the Church hath the power as Alexander de Ales witnesseth by the power of his keys by the meanes of his indulgences to distribute bestow them as wel to the liuing as to the dead the Papistes haue no more néede of any other thing For euen as they haue by their Masses and other inu●ntions abolished put out the vertue of the death and passion and of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ so the Popes which haue bene the authors of the buls and indulgences haue abolished masses suffrages al meritorious works for the quicke for the dead which their predec●ssors haue inuented without the word of god And so by that meanes one shal haue no more néede not onely of Iesus Christ but also of their masses nor of all that that they can do but it is sufficient for al to haue paper parchment written and buls signed sealed with waxe or with lead ●ut which is more I am very much abashed how they dare to attribute so much power ouer y dead to their buls keys absolutiōs sith that the Pope Gelasius and their decre●als Canons doe witnesse and openly confesse that the church can bind● and vnbinde those y be liuing not the dead and that w●e doe not read that the same was euer cōmaunded or done not of Iesus Christ himselfe which al●ne hath the power to do that But hath said namely vnto S. Peter Al that that thou shalt binde or vnbinde vpon the earth shal be bound in heauē He hath said namely vpon earth For he hath neuer sayd that he that shal be dead being bound shal be vnb●und Beholde the very wordes of the Canons which doe well way the wordes of Iesus Christ and doe confirme y that I haue said of the authoritie of the keyes at the least in this place in which is said very plainely that by those words of the gospell is declared that none can be excommunicated or absolued a●ter he is dead For he saith That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde vppon earth He sayth not vnder the earth declaring that we may binde and vn binde those that be alyue for y diuersitie of their merits but we cannot giue sentence of the dead Beholde the question that Gratian propounded the resolution in his owne words Thomas How can that agrée with that which hath bene alreadie alleadged of the very Canons which doe giue power to excommunicate the Hereticks after they be dead It must néeds be that the canons be contrary the one vnto the other Theophilus That is not newe nor rare with them But the glosers doe excuse that by their interpretacions and exceptions I doe not denye but that we may condempne dempne after that one is deade the false doctrine that a man and an Hereticke shall holde during his lyfe if then it be manifested euen as it might bée done by some of them of whom they doe alleadge the examples for to aduertise the Churches to the ende that the faythfull might the better kéepe themselues But to excommunicate and curse the persons I knowe or sée not how that can bée bo●ne with all by the holy Scripture ●ith that they are before theyr Iudge vnto whome the Angells did sende the Diuell as is written of Michael the Archangell who disputing with the Diuell about the body of Mo●es durst not vse rayling iudgement agaynst him but said vnto him The Lord rebuke thée Yet neuerthelesse those heere dare to enterprise more agaynst men both quick and dead then the Angells durst agaynst the Diuels although that they holde them already for most certe●●e to be condemp●●ed of God. Hillarius I am yet abashed of one thing If the Pope haue such power to giue full remission from payne and fault by his bulles moulgences aswell for the quick as for the soules of the dead I meruayle that hée hath not already long sithence made empti● and cleansed Purgatory and that he hath not fetched out all the soules sith that he giueth so many pardons dayly and hourely and not only he but al ●is Cardinals bishops priests monks Eusebius There is a goodly aunswere vnto that question The first is for that there goeth euery day new into Purgatory The other is euen as Saint Thomas saint Bonauenture doe aunswere vnto that obiection that it is very requisite and needefull before that the indulgence and pardon be auayleable that it haue reasonable cause and that the dispensation of the goods and treasure of the church in which are assembled and comprised al the merits of Iesus Christ all the merits of al the Saints and Saintes which euer were should be done with moderation and discression or otherwise god will not accept it And therefor the pardons indulgences are not giuen vnto any person eyther for him or for any other be he quicke or dead but by reason of some good worke that he hath done eyther for him selfe or in the name of those for whome the pardon is giuen And therefore is lymitted the power of all those which haue the charge to giue them al do know be they Cardinals Archbishops Bishops Abbots Moonks or Priests how many they may giue euery day except the Pope which hath not his power limitted except he vse thē vnreasonably the pardōs thē that he wil giue shal not be auaileable with god Hillarius I vnderstand what thou wouldest say The pope hath heaped vp together all the merits of Iesus Christ of the patriarchs prophets Apos tles Martirs confessors virgins saints saintes of paradise of al the Christian Church in a treasure and a garner of which he alone hath the keyes and can open or shut distribute little or much when he will and as it pleaseth him For he is the great lockesimth But al the others are but as his seruaunts of whom he lymitteth the power and the office of euery one in such sort that they cannot distribute but that that he hath delyuered vnto them and of whom they haue the keyes Wherefore if it behoueth that hée haue in the treasury garner a great many of seuerall chābers and cabins of which many must haue the keyes euery one his owne for to depart and bestow that whereoff he hath the dispensation without daring to touche the