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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88943	Church-government and church-covenant discussed, in an answer of the elders of the severall churches in New-England to two and thirty questions, sent over to them by divers ministers in England, to declare their judgments therein. Together with an apologie of the said elders in New-England for church-covenant, sent over in answer to Master Bernard in the yeare 1639. As also in an answer to nine positions about church-government. And now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in those points.	Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.; Mather, Richard, 1596-1669. Apologie of the churches in New-England for church-covenant.; Peters, Hugh, 1598-1660.; Davenport, John, 1597-1670.	1643 (1643)	Wing M1270; Thomason E106_8; Thomason E106_9; ESTC R18913	104,756	140

carry matters justly and according to the Rules of the Word The power of the Keyes Matth. 16. 19. among other things noteth Ministeriall or delegated power of Government and this power is committed by Christ unto the Church as may appeare if wee consider first to whom Christ directed his Speech in that place of Scripture not to Peter alone but to all the Disciples also for to them all the Question was propounded by Christ vers 15. And ●eter answered in all their names Secondly that he and they were not then looked upon as Apostles or generall officers of all Churches for that Commission was not yet given them but as Disciples and Beleevers believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth Jesus Christ the rocke upon whom the Church is built wherein as they did represent all Believers so in Peter and the rest the Keyes are committed to all Believers that shall joine together in the same confession according to the order and ordinance of Christ And therefore afterward this power of Government is expresly given to the Church Matth. 18. 17. according hereunto in that description of the visible Church as it is instituted by Christ in the new Testament Rev. 4. The members of the Church are seene by John in a vision sitting on thrones cloathed with white rayment having on their heads Crownes of Gold vers 14. Now Thrones and Crownes are ensignes of authority and power to note unto us that authority and governing power which is committed by Christ unto the Church Doctor Fulke hath this saying The Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven whatsoever they are be committed to the whole Church and not to one person onely as Cyprian Augustine Chrysostome Jerome and all the ancient Doctors agreeably to the Scriptures doe confesse against the Popes pardons chap. 3. P. 381. And elsewhere he saith The authority of Excommunication pertaineth to the whole Church although the judgement and execution thereof is to be referred to the Governours of the Church which exercise that authority as in the name of Christ so in the name of the who●e Church whereof they are appointed Governours to avoid confusion against the Rhemists on 1 Cor. 5. Sect. 3. And Doctor Whitaker hath these words Hoc est quod nos dicimus Petrum gessisse personam omnium Apostolorum quare hanc promissionem non uni Petro sed toti Ecclesiae factam esse totam Ecclesiam in illo claves accepisse De pontif Roman Q. 2. c. 4. Sect. 17. And in that Booke hee is pregnant and plaine in this that by the Keyes is meant all Ecclesiasticall power and Jurisdiction and that these Keyes are given in Peter to the whole Church The same is also taught by Master Parker Polit. Eccles l. 3. c. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5 6. where he proves by many Arguments that every visible Church which hee acknowledgeth to be no other but a particular congregation hath the power of all Ecclesiasticall Government and Jurisdiction commited to it by Christ Jesus and answereth many Objections to the contrary And page 2 of that third Book making mention of foure Opinions concerning those words of the Keyes and power of binding and loosing Matth. 16. 19. the first of them that understand the Pope onely to be meant thereby as Peters successour the second of them that understand it of the Diocesan Bishop The third of them that understand those words as meant of the Ministers but the Ministers alone The fourth of them that understand Peter to represent the Church in that place and therefore that that promise is made unto the Church Of these he refuseth the three first as unsound and maintaines the fourth as onely agreeing to the truth And Master Baine saith Every Church by Christs institution hath power of Government Dioces Tryall Quest 1. p. 8. And hee tells us page 11. what hee meant by Church The word Church saith he wee understand here not figuratively tataken Metonymically for the place Syn●cdochecally for Ministers administring ordinances but properly for a body politicke standing of People to be taught and governed and of Teachers and Governours So that in his judgement every Church properly so called hath power of Government within it selfe and by these words of his it may also be concluded that all power of Government is not in the Elders alone for the power of Government by Church institution is in every Church properly so called But Ministers are not a Church in propriety of speech but onely figuratively by a synecdoche And therefore all power of Government is not in the Ministers alone but a Church properly so called is the Body politique consisting of people and Ministers But of this more may bee said in the next Question Fourthly for the matters of Independency whereof this Question also makes mention We doe confesse the Church is not so independent but that it ought to dep●nd on Christ both for direction from the rules of his holy Word Ioh. 10. 27. Act. 3. 23. and for the assistance of his holy Spirit to discerne those rules and to walke according to them when they shall be discerned Ioh. ●5 5. and 16. 13. but for dependency upon men or other Churches or other subordination unto them in regard of Church Government or power Wee know not of any such appointed by Christ in his Word Our Saviours words are plaine If a man heare not the Chu●ch let him beto thee as an Heathen or Publican And his promise unto his Church is plaine also that whatsoever they shall binde on earth shall be bound in Heaven c. Mat. 18. 17. c. And the Apostle bids the Church deliver the impenitent sinner unto Satan 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5 6. Now when the man upon the Churches censure comes to be in case as an Heathen or Publican yea becomes bound in Heaven as well as bound in earth and also delivered unto Satan this seems to us to be such a firme ratification of the Churches censure as leaves no roome for any other Ecclesiasticall power on earth to reverse or disanull the same and so takes away that kinde of dependency and subordination of Churches Nos plane dicimus ●cclesias initiò regi solitas esse à suis pastoribus sic quidem ut nullis essent externis aut Ecclesi●s aut Episcopis subditae non Colossensis Ephaesi●ae non Philippensis Thessaloniensi non h● Romanae non Romanae cuiquam se● paris omnes inter se juris essent id est sui omnes juris et mancipij Whitak de Pontif. Roman Question 1. Chapter 1. Section 3. That is in summe The Churches were not dependent and subordinate to others but all of them absolutely free and independent Wee affirme saith Master Baine that all Churches were singular Congregations equall in dependent each of other in regard of subjection Diocesse tryall Q 1. pag. 13. The twentieth Chapter of Mr. Parker his third Booke of Eccles Politie hath this Title De summitate Ecclesiae particularis And

modest offer of Disputation laying downe 16. Propositions which they offer to maintaine against the Prelats give this for the fourth of them viz. There is no true visible Church of Christ but a particular ordinary Congregation onely Doubtlesse every true visible Church hath power from Christ to exercise Excommunication and other Ordinances of Christ so that they proceed therein according to the Rules of the word 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. Mat. 18. 17. Now Dr. Whitakers sheweth against Bellarmine that Excommunication belongs not to the universall Church but onely to a particular Congregation Qui justè excommunicantur saith he co satanae traditos esse concedimu● non t●men posse pr●priem D●●i eject●s ex Ecclesia Catholica Quia Excommunicatio non Catholica sed particularis Ecclesiae censura est De Eccles Qu. 1. c. 6. Wherefore if Excommunication which belongs to the visible Church belongeth to a particular Congregation it followeth that there is no visible Church but onely a particular Congregation Secondly As all visible Believers are not without Christ but in Christ according as they are believers so we easily grant that those without of whom the Apostle speakes 1 Cor. 5. were unbelievers Pagans and Heathens both without Christ and also without the visible Church For those that were in Christ and believers in Him were not wont to abstaine from joyning to some particular Congregation or other and so it come to passe that as they were in Christ by their Faith so by such joyning they became also to be within the visible Church 3. But this we conceive is cleare also that unlesse Believers be Members of this or that particular Congregation to whose inspection and Government they have commended themselves in the Lord they also in some respect may be said to be without that is without the jurisdiction and power of the visible Church and without right to the priviledges of it as long as they continue in that State for the Church hath nothing to do either to dispence censures and Church priviledges to Pagans who are without all Churches and without Christ also or to such Christians who though they are not without Christ yet are not within any particular Church for neither the Church nor the Ministers thereof may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And though those without of whom the Apostle speakes 1 Cor. 5. were Pagans and Heathens both without Christ and without the visible Church also yet when hee speaketh of Judgeing and saith they might judge them that are within and not judge them that are without hee must not be understood as if he meant it simply of being in Christ or without Christ and no more then so but also of being in that particular Congregation and without it for it is plaine that those that were in Christ if they were not also within their particular Congregation they had nothing to do to judge them and those that were within their particular Congregation them they might judge though they were not in Christ 4. And that Church priviledges do not belong to Believers as such but onely to such as withall are Members of some particular Church the Grounds and Reasons in the Answer to the third and fourth Proposition sent the last yeare do seeme to us to make manifest whereto we do referre you for further Answer to this Question It is an opinion of the Anabaptists that the Church is made by Baptisme and therefore when they constitute or erect a Church they do it by being all of them Baptized which was the manner of Mr. Smith Mr. Helwis and the rest of that company when they set up their Church The Papists also do imagine that men enter into the Church by Baptisme and it is said that their Founts were set neere the doores of their Temples to signifie mens entring into the Church by Baptisme and they thought themselves to be christened or made christian soules by being Baptized But we do not believe that Baptisme doth make men Members of the Church nor that it is to be Administred to them that are without the Church as the way and meanes to bring them in but to them that are within the Church as a seale to confirme the Covenant of God unto them For 1. This is one point of the dignity and priviledge of the Church that Baptisme and all Church Ordinances are given and committed to it as Circumcision and Church Ordinances were given and concredited to the Church of the Jewes Ioh. 7. 22. Now if Baptisme in its first being and institution be given as a benefit and priviledge to the Church then Baptisme is not that which makes the Church but the Church is presupposed and must be before it for the dones or persons to whom a thing is given must needs be before the gift that is given to them 2. The nature and use of Baptisme is to be a seale to confirme the Covenant of Grace between God and his Church and the Members thereof as circumcision also was Rom. 4. 11. Now a seale is not to make a thing that was not but to confirme something that was before and so Baptisme is not that which gives being to the Church nor to the Covenant but is for confirmation thereof To bring in Baptisme before the Covenant and before the Church with whom God makes the Covenant and then to bring in the Church afterwards is to make Baptisme a seale unto a Blanke or to a falshood When the Jesuits of Rhemes had said that Christ sent 12 Apostles to the Jewes to move them to penance and so by Baptisme to make them of his Church And that Paul was sent to the Gentiles to move them also to faith and penance and by Baptisme to make them of his Church This saying of making men of the Church by Baptisme though uttered by them as it were by the way and not being the chiefe scope of their discourse yet seemed to Mr. Cartwright so erroneous and unsound that hee would not let it passe without bearing speciall witnesse against the same And therefore in opposition thereunto he hath these words and in another Character for more conspicuousnesse viz. That Baptisme makes not men of the Church but sealeth their incorporation into it hath been declared afore Argument of Acts 6. 1. And that Catechisme which is commonly said to be penned by our Reverend Brother Mr. Ball or Mr. Nicholas now with God giving this for the definition of Baptisme that it is a Sacrament of our ingrafting into Christ communion with him and entrance into the Church doth in the Exposition plainely declare that when they called Baptisme a Sacrament of our entrance into the Church they did not meane that Baptisme made men Members of the Church but signified and sealed that they were Members afore The seed of Abraham say they Pag 144. Gal. 3. 7. or children of Christian Parents are within the Covenant are Christians and Members of the Church 1 Cor. 7. 14. Rom. 11. 16.

of Church Government is not in the Elders alone but some power is in the people And else-where he counts it no Sacriledge for Members of the Church though not in office to handle those keyes Mat. 16. but rather a frivolous thing to thinke otherwise Quasi absque sacrilegio saith he tractare claves priva●i nequeant qui e●●s privatim tractare jubeatur Quoties fratres suos admonere consolari et aedificare Imò ve●ò est publica clavium tractatio quam plebs Christiana in unum coacta sine ullo sacrilegio ministrat 1 Cor. 5. Polit. Eccles l. 3. c. 2. p. 8. And yet this is not a singular conceit of his or ours but the concurrent judgement of many worthy witnesses of the truth in these latter dayes who do with great consent hold the Ecclesiasticall government to be of a mixt form compounded of all three Estates and that the people are not to be wholly excluded from having any thing to do therein Si velimus Christum ipsum respicere fuit semper Ecclesiae Regimen monarchicum Si Ecclesiae presbyter●s qui in Doctrina et disciplina suas partes agebant Aristocraticum si totum corpus Ecclesiae quatenus in Electione Episcoporum et presbyterorum suffragia ferebat it a tamen ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 semper à presbyteris servaretur Democraticum Sic partim Aristocritum partim Democraticum partim etiam Monarchicum est semper que fuit Ecclesiae Regimen Whita de pontif Rom. Qu. 1. c. 1. sect 2. The Church saith Mr. Cartwright is governed with that kinde of Government which the Philosophers that write of the best Common-wealths affirme to be the best For in respect of Christ the head it is a Monarchy and in respect of the Ancients and Pastors that Governe in Common and with like Authority among themselves it is an Aristocraty or rule of the best men and in respect that the people are not secluded but have their interest in Church matters it is a Democraty or popular State 1 Reply p. 51. And when Dr. Whitegift from the Doctrine of the Authors of the Admonition would infer this consequence viz. that then the more that ruled the better estate it should be and so the popular state should be the best In Answer hereunto he saith I have spoken of this before where I declared that the mixed estate is best both by the example of the Kingdome of Christ and also of this our Realme pag. 181. 182. And againe whereas Mr. Dr. saith that Excommunication and consequently Absolution or restoring to the Church again pertaineth only to the Minister it remaineth that I shew that the Presbytery or Eldership and the whole Church also hath interest in the excommunication and consequently in the absolution or restoring unto the Church againe p. 183. And againe it is certaine Saint Paul did both understand and observe the rule of our Saviour Christ viz. that rule Mat. 18. Tell the Church but he communicateth this power of Excommunication with the Church and therefore it must needs be the meaning of our Saviour Christ that the Excommunication should be by many and not by one and by the Church and not by the Minister of the Church alone for hee biddeth the Church of Corinth twise in the first Epistle once by a Metaphor another time in plaine words that they should Excommunicate the Incestuous person And in the 2d. Epistle understanding of the Repentance of the man he intreateth them that they would receive him again And therfore considering that the Absolution of the Excommunication doth pertain unto the Churches it followeth that the excommunication doth in like manner appertainunto it p. 184. And again that the Ancients had the ordering of these things and that the peoples consent was required that the Ministers did not take upon them of their own Authority to Excommunicate c. It may appeare almost in every page of Cyprians Epistles In Augustines time it appeareth also that that consent of the Church was required p. 187. To these may be added Mr. Fenner who speaking of the Ecclesiasticall Presbytery and of the businesse which the Presbytery is to deale in which hee distinguisheth into judiciarie as deciding of doubts and dispencing of Censures and extrajudiciary as Election Ordination c. hath these words Atque haec sunt negotia quae praestari debent In quibus per omnes Ecclesias summa Ecclesiastica potestas presbyterio demandata est ita tamen ut in his quae maximi sunt momenti et ad ecclesiae totius bonum velruinam maxime spectant post 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 suam de his captum consilia Ecclesiae denunciantur ut si quid habeant quod consulant vel objiciant in ●●edium proferant postea autem auditis et assentien ibus nisi ad majorem Senatum negotium deferri fuerit necesse ad turbas vita●das sive componendas quod tum cum Major pars Ecclesiae dissentit faciendum est decervenda et pro decretis Ecclesiis pro●onenda sunt and then he declares what hee meanes by those matters maxim momenti viz. excommunication absolution elections and deposings of Ministers and such like Sacrae The. lib. 7. c 7. wherin he plainly sheweth that though the power of the Presbytery be very great yet in things of greatest moment as Censures and Elections the people if they have any thing to counsell or object have liberty to bring it in and afterwards matters are to be concluded when they have bin heard speake and have given their consent for which liberty and power of the people he bringeth these Scriptures 2 Chro. 30. 23. Acts 1. 15. 23. 26. 1 Cor. 5. 4. 2 Cor. 1. 6. 7. Zanchius speaking of that Question per quos exerceri debet excommunicatio answers thus nempe per Ecclesia● seu per ministros Ecclesiae nomine eoque et cum consensu totius Ecclesiae Promissio illa Quaecunque ligaveritis ad totam Ecclesiam est facta Ergo c. Praeterea Apostolus hoc expressius declaravit 1 Cor. 5. congregatis vobis c. alloquebatur autem totam Ecclesiam Patres idem docent Cyprianus ad Cornelium Rom. Episcopum seribit se multum laborasse apud plebem ut par daretur lapsis p●enitentibus Si ergo non erat unius Episcopi cum suo Presbyterio solvere quempiam sed requirebatur plebis eoque totius Ecclesiae consensus Ergo neque ligari quispiam poterat id est Excommunicari sine totius Ecclesiae consensu Augustinus etiam contra Donatistas ait supersedendum esse excommunicatione Quando tota plebs laborant eodem merbo Quid ita causam adfert Quia inquit non assentientur excommunicationi c. Satis aperte docet tunc temporis non solitum fuisse excommunicationem ferri in Quempiam sine totius Ecclesiae consensu et ratio est in promptu Quae enim adomnes pertinent eum consensu omnium fieri debent Ergo sine totius

when themselves are Alients and Strangers Cyrus Darius and Artaxerxes gave great countenance and incouragement to the Jewes to build the House of God that they might offer sacrifices of sweet savour to the God of Heaven and pray for the life of the King and of his Sonnes Ezra 6. 8 9 10. I● which case good Ezra blesseth the Lord that had put such a thing into the Kings heart to beautifie the House of the God of Heaven Ezra 7. 27. And therefore Kings and all in Authority should be prayed for that we may lead a godly and peaceable life in Godlinesse and honesty 1 Tim. 2. 1 2. Neverthelesse the things that are ordained and commanded of GOD the observing of them in a peaceable way yeilding out reverence to all that are in Authority and praying for them this observing of the Ordinances of God cannot be unlawfull for lack of the Commandement of Man as appeares by the doctrine and pract●ce of the Apostles Act. 4. 19. 5. 29. and the approved practise of Believers in their times if they had neglected the Ordinances of God and namely Church Ordinances till they had had the commandement of Magistrate therein such neglect would have beene their grievous sinne and for ought we know they might have lived and died without them the Magistrates at that time be●ng all either Heathens or Jewes yet enemies and if Church Communion and the exercise of such Ordinances as Christ hath appointed for his Churches was lawfull and needfull and profitable when Magistrates were enemies to the Gospell and bee not so when Magistrates doe professe the Gospell we doe not see but Christians may sometimes be losers by having Christian Magistrates and in worse condition then if they had none but professed E●emies Besides this if Superiors should neglect to provide bodily sustenance for them that are under their charge we doe not thinke that any Mans Conscience would be so scrupulous but hee would thinke it lawfull b●y all good meanes to provide for himself in such case rather then to sit still and say if I perish for hunger it is the sinne of them that have Authority over mee and they must answer for It Neither can we tell how the Conscience of any Christian can excuse himself if he thinks no● the Ordinances of Christ as necessary for the good of his soule as food is necessary for his temporall life or doe not willingly in this spirituall hunger break through stone Walls as the Proverbe i● and runne from Sea to Sea to seeke God in his owne way rather then to perish without spirituall food because others provide not for him And this is our Answer to this eleventh Quere concerning your standing in the Parish Assemblies which Answer of ours and the exhortation therein as we pray the Father of mercies to make effectuall by his blessing for those good ends which wee intend therein so wee cannot in the same but reflect upon our selves and our owne wayes in times past as seeing not a little cause to judge our selves before the Lord as long as wee live for our sinfull ignorance and negligence when wee were in England ●o observe and walke according to those Rules of the Word which now upon occasion given by this Qu. wee doe commend to your selves and other Christians The Lord in mercy pardon our offences and direct your selves and his servants in ●ur deare Native Countrey both in remaining and removing to doe that which is pleasing in his sight Whereas this Qu. in the first clause and last but one compared together speakes of Believers out of the Kingdome of GOD and possibility of salvation we conceive it is a contradiction for those that are true Believers cannot be out of possibility of salva●on but possibly may yea most undoubtedly shall bee saved Joh. 3. 16. and 5. 24. the contrary whereof is to overthrow all the promises of the Gospell and with the Papists and Arminians to establish falling from grace 2. For that saying Extra Ecclesiam non est salus wee conceive it cannot be universally true if it be meant of the visible Church which in the New-Testament is a particular Congregation but onely being taken for the Church invisible or the Vniversall Church which is the whole company of the elect in Heaven in Earth and not yet borne Ioh. 10. 16. and 17. 20. out of which elected Company there is not one that shall be saved nor any of the elect neither but in the way of Regeneration Ioh 3. 3. but as for the Visible we believe the old saying is true there are many Wolves within and many Sheepe without Joh. 10. 16. and therefore it cannot be universally true that out of the Visible Church there is no salvation Inasmuch as all Christs Sheepe shall be saved Ioh. 10. 28. of whom yet notwithstanding there are some not joyned to the Visible Church If the Thiefe that repented on the Crosse was a Gentile as it was possible he was then hee was uncircumcised and then it will trouble a Man to tell of what Visible Church he was and yet there is no doubt but he was saved The like may be said of Iob and of his friends of whose salvation we make no question and yet it is a great question whether they were of any Visible Church or no inasmuch as the Visible Church in those times seemed to be appropriated to the House and posterity of Abraham Isaac and Iacob of which line race it cannot easily be proved that all these men did come nor that they joined themselves in Visible fellowship with that Church The Centurion Mat. 8. 10. and the Woman of Canaan Mat. 15. were both of them believers and saved and yet it doth not appeare that they were members of the Visible Church of the Iews which was the only visible Church of God in those times Men of yeares ought to be believers and so in the state of Salvation afore they be joyned to the Visible Church and therefore there may be salvation out of that Church For it is possible that such an one as being a Believer is fit to bee joyned to the Church m●y di● and depart this life afore hee can bee joyned as that good Emperour Valenti●ian 2. died before hee could bee baptize● And for your selves if you should thinke that Baptisme makes men members of the Visible Church as is intimated in your fourth Question you may not then deny but there may be salvation out of the visible Church unlesse you will say that there is no salvation without Baptisme which we believe is farre from you to imagine 3. We doe hold that so oft and so long as a believer doth not joyne himselfe as a Member to some particular Congregation or other so oft and so long he is without the Church in the Apostles sence 1 Cor. 5. for the Church in the Apostles sence is a particular Congregation for he writeth to and of the Church at Corinth which Church was a

particular Congregation 1 Cor. 5 4 14. 23. 11. 17. 20. and having power of judgeing her own Members as all visible Churches have yet had no power of Judgeing any but such as were within that particular Congregation as all them they had power to judge whether they were believers in Christ or no. Mr. B●i●● as we said before is very large and cleare in proving this Position that the Churches instituted by Christ and the Apostles were only such as might meet in one Congregation ordinarily and answers many objections to the contrary Di●ces tryal Q. 1. 4. For the Question it selfe we hold that every believer if possibly he can is alwayes bound to joyne himselfe as a Member to some particular Congregation or other and yet not because else he is a Heathen and Publican or out of possibilitie of salvation as this Question suggests but upon other grounds 1. Because of the Commandment of God Cant. 1. 8. Math. 6. 10. 33. 2. Because willingly not to doe this is a secret disparagement to the wisdome of God that hath ordained Churches with giving power and privilegdes therunto Mat. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 4. and promises of his gracions presence to be with them and amongst them Mat. 18. 20. Rev. 2. 1. Exod. 20. 24. Now to what end were all these if believers should live and no● joyne themselves to some Church These priviledges and promises would in such case be all in vain and the mercy of God offered therin unthankfully neglected Thirdly voluntarily abstaining from joyning to the Church is noted and condemned as a sinne Heb. 10. 25. and a signe of fearefull unbelievers Act. 5. 13. of the rest durst no man joyne unto them Fourthly good men in Scripture have been forward in practise this way Isay 2. 2 3. Zach. 8. 23. Act. 2. 41 42. and 9. 26. and have mourned with much bitternesse when they have been deprived of Liberty so to doe Isay 56. 3. and Ps 42. and 63. and 84. Fiftly this joyning is a part of that Order and orderly walking which is required of believers Col. 2. 5. 1 Cor. 14. 40. Sixtly If Believers doe neglect this joyning it is not onely a wrong to themselves but also a great unkindnesse to God for if one believer may doe this why not another and if two why not three foure c. and if all believers should doe thus God should have no visible Churches upon Earth unles he will acknowledge the Assemblies to be of unbelievers Churches foras stones in the Mountains are not an house untill they be joyned together though they be digged up out of the Quarry and squared hewn and hereby are made fit to be joyned together and so to become an house so believers are not a Church till they be joyned in holy Covenant in some Congregation though the worke of Grace and Faith in their soules have made them fit and meete to be a Church of God which is the House of the living God or as the humane soule and body are not a man unlesse they be united so Christian or believers are not a visible Church without visible union into some particular Congregation Mr. Perkins having said that forth of the militant Church there are no meanes of salvation no preaching of Gods word no invocation of Gods Name no Sacraments and therefore no Salvation concludes with these words For this cause every man must be admonished evermore to joyn himselfe to some particular Church being a sound Member of the Catholick Church Expos of Creed in the Article of the Church and Doctor Ames gives 6. Reasons why every Christian should ioyne himselfe to some particular Church or other Cas Cons● L. 4. c. 24. Q. 1. and in another place he hath these words Illi igitur qui occasion●● habent adjungendi sese Ecclesiae ●am negligunt gravissimè peccant non tantum in Deum ratione Institutionis sed etiam in suas proprias animas ratione benedictionis adjunctae etsi obstinatè persistant in ipsa incu●ia quicquid alias profitentur vix possunt haberi pro fidelibus Regnum Dei verè quaerentibus Medul Theol. l. 1. c. 32. Sect. 28. First whereas this 13th Question speakes of private and illiterate persons into a Church Body combined wee looke at this as an incongruous expression if not a contradiction For a company so combined as to make a Church are not fitly called private though they be illiterate in respect of humane learning in as much as a Church or a Church-body especially in times and places of peace and liberty is a publike Congregation and society and the acts of Communion which they have among themselves such as is the election and deposing of Ministers whereof the Question makes mention are not private acts but publike or people-like Neither are literate or learned men therefore publike because they are indued with humane learning unlesse withall they be called to publike office or imployment in Church or Common-wealth and therefore if illiterate be an exegesis of private we conceive that exegesis is not good Secondly whereas this Question asketh Whether it be lawfull and convenient that such a company should themselvs ordinarily examine elect ordain and depose their owne Ministers if ordinarily be as much as frequently we answer three things First that if one Church doe frequently come to such actions that is to take in and put out the same men this is not without suspition of much levity and rashnesse in the people or unfaithfulnesse or unworthy walking in the Ministers or both and therefore ordinar●ly that is frequent taking in and putting out againe in this manner is as much as may be to be avoided Secondly when such things doe often and frequently fall out it is doubtlesse a Judgement of God upon such a people to have so many changes in their Ministers as was that of which it was said three shepheards have I cut off in one moneth Zach. 11. 8. that People should be so oft as sheep having no Shepheard for the transgression of a land many are the Princes thereof Pro. 28. 2. So in like sort for the transgressions of a Church many are the Ministers thereof we meane when they have many Ministers by the comming in and going out of the same men or the removing of some and the taking in of others in their roome for otherwise it is a blessing of God when a Church is furnished with variety of Ministers at the same time Acts 13. 1. 21. 18. Phil. 1. 1. Thirdly yet this word ordinarily doth seeme to imply that in your judgement sometimes this may be lawfull and convenient to be done Now upon the same ground on which it may be done sometimes upon the same it may be done at other times if there be just occasion Thirdly for the assistance of the Ministers of other Churches of which this Question maketh mention if this be onely by way of counsell or advice we know nothing unlawfull or

mentioned that onely he that doth those may performe this other also as some others thinke but being nothing else in the true nature and use of it but the execution and accomplishment and confirmation of election it may bee performed by the people of God that yet have no Officers even as Election may upon which it doth depend 5. Lastly let these sayings of some Protestant Writers of singular note either for holinesse or learning or both be well considered of Master Perkins saith Succession of Doctrine alone is sufficient for this Rule must bee remembred that the power of the Keyes that is of order and jurisdiction is tyed by God and annexed in the New Testament to Doctrine If in Turkey or America or elsewhere the Gospel should be received by the counsell and perswasion of private persons they need not send into Europe for consecrated Ministers but they have power to choose their owne Ministers from within themselves because where God gives the Word he gives the power also upon Gal. 1. 11. Doctor Willet saith Whereas Bellarmine objecteth that as in the old Law the Priesthood went by carnall generation and lineall descent from Aaron so in the New it must bee derived by succession from the Apostles we answere first that our Saviour Christ and his Apostles could shew no lineall descent from Aaron neither had their ordination from his Successors and yet were the true Pastors of the Church And a little after This we say further that both before Christ there were true Pastors and Prophets which were not ordained by the Priests of Aaron and since Christ that received not their ordination successively from the Apostles First in the old Law when the ordinary Priesthood was corrupted God raised up Prophets from other Tribes that received not from the Priests their ordination and allowance such an one was Amos who was among Heardsmen and was made a Prophet as he was gathering wilde black-berries After the same manner in the corrupt times of the Gospel the Lord hath raised up faithfull Ministers to his Church that could shew no succession from the degenerate Clergy And a little after If Paul were made an Apostle without the ordination of the lawfull Apostles much more may the Lord raise up new Pastors to his Church without ordination from the usurpers of the Apostles Synops Papism contr 2. Q. 3. of Succession Error 20. p. 81. Mor●●y his words are full and plaine to the same purpose viz Although some of our men in such a corrupt state of the Church as we have seene in our time without waiting for calling or allowance of them who under the title of Pastors oppressed the Lords Flock did at first preach without this formall calling and afterward were chosen and called to the holy Ministey by the Churches which they had taught yet this ought to seeme no more strange then if in a free common-wealth the people without waiting either for the consent or for the voices of those that tyrannize over them should according to the Lawes make choice of good and wise Magistrates such happily as God would serve his turne of for their deliverance and for the publike restitution And hereof wee have examples first in the Acts where wee read that Philip who was but a Deacon preacheth in Samaria without the calling of the Apostles yea without their privity who for all that gave their allowance to his worke In Frumentius carried upon another occasion into the Indies a meere Lay-man who yet there preacheth the Gospel and a good while after is there made Bishop In those of whom Origen speaketh that shall come by chance into a City where never any Christian was borne shall there begin to teach and labour to instruct the people in the Faith whom the People shall afterward make their Pastors and Bishops and besides in all the Scriptures there is not one place that bindeth the Ministery of the Gospel to a certaine succession but contrariwise the Scripture sheweth that God would send two speciall witnesses to prophesie against Antichrist Of the Church chap. 11. p. 371. Doctor Whitaker answering Bellarmine that would prove Protestants to have no Church because their Ministers had no Ordination by Bishops saith That as sometimes Bishops were chosen by the Clergy and sometimes by the People so the same may be said of Ordination viz. that it was sometimes by the Clergy and sometimes by the People and then addeth Quod si vocationem corum Episcoporum legitimam fuisse concedat Bellarminus De ordinatione minus laboramus Qui enim habent authoritatem vocandi iidem etiam authoritatem ordinandi habent si legitima ordinatio non possit impetrari nam ordinatio sequitur vocationem qui vocatur i● quasi in sui muneris possessionem mittitur de Eccles Q. 5. cap. 6 p. 510. Finally Doctor Ames doth also witnesse the same in many places of his workes for a taste take these few sayings of his in this case viz. Ad totam Ecclesiam semper pertinet ordinatio quoad jus vim virtutem illam quam habet in Ministro Ecclesiae constituendo sicut celebratio matrimonii vim aut virtutem omnem acceptam refert legitimo consensui conjugum Ecclesie statu ministerio ordine deficiente collapso vel corrupto à plebe etiam actus iste ordinationis quatenus necessarius est ad Ministri constitutionem in tali casu potest legitimè exerceri Bellarm enervat lib. 3. de clericis cap. 2 de ordinatione And againe a little after Episcopos veros à veris Episcopis ordinariè dicimus ordinand●s esse sed nomine Ecclesiae cui ordinantur And againe a little after Potestas ordinandi est aliqu● modo originaliter in tota Ecclesia sicut potestas videndi originaliter est in toto animali quamvis formaliter subjectivè sit in oculo tantùm tum etiam ordinationis exercitium pendet à tota Ecclesia sicut actus videndi hoc vel illud determinatè pendet non ab oculo sed à toto And againe Quamvis in Ecclesia benè constituta non debeat aliis quam presbyteris ordinandi manus mandari in defectu tamen idoneorum presbyterorum potest non presbyteris mandari And yet againe in the next place Si concedatur hoc quòd ex ordine nemo possit esse legitimus pastor nisi sit à legitimo Pastore Episcopo ordinatus In ordinis tamen defectu cùm jam primò instaurari debet ordo non potest●tam accuratè observari atque adeo extraordinarium aliquid tum potest intervenire sine ullo vitio These words you see are punctuall and plaine that the power of ordaining Ministers is originally in the Church and that though when a Church hath Presbyters the act of ordaining is to be done by those Presbyters yet in defect of such it may be performed by them that are no Presbyters lawfully and without fault which is the case of our Churches that are in their beginnings and may

inconvenient in such assistance because Churches are as Sisters one to another Cant. 8. 8. And therefore it is our practice in ordination of Ministers as also in removall of them to have such assistance But for authority and power we know none that Ministers have properly so called in any Congregation or Church save that one over which the Holy Ghost hath made them overseers and therefore we thinke it not lawfull nor convenient when a Church is to ordaine Officers to call in such assistance viz. by way of authority or power of the Ministers of other Churches Fourthly we judge it lawfull and convenient that every Church of Christ what ever their humane learning be whether much or lesse should elect and choose their Ministers God doth not for ought we know give this power of calling their owne Ministers unto such Churches as have many learned men in them and deny it unto others but gives it indifferently to every Church as they are a Church and so to one Church as much as to another If we thought you doubted whether the power of calling Ministers were given by Christ unto the Church we might here alledge many Reasons for it but this being the constant judgement of the eminent Lights of this age and the former who have been studious of Reformation wee must hope till we hear to the contrary that your selves do not differ from them in this point As for us those grounds and reasons from the holy Scripture which are alledged by 1 Calvin 2 Zanchius 3 Mr Cartwright 4 Dr Ames and 5 others doe satisfie us in this particular 1 Institut 4. 3. 14. 15. 2 De redemp in 4. praecep p. 1015. 1016. c. who alledgeth Bucer and Musculus 3 1. Reply p. 44. c. 4 M●dul Theol. l. 1. c. 21. Sect. 30 cas consc lib. 4. c. 25. Q. 5. 5 Demonist of disc c. 4. Fifthly as for that objection which seemes to be implyed in the word illiterate that it should not be lawfull or convenient for a body to choose their owne Ministers because they are illiterate or want men of humane learning among them wee further answere thereto first that among us when a company are to be combined into a Church-body as you speake there is usually one or other among them who doe not want all humane learning but have been trained up in Universities and usually have been Ministers and Preachers of the Word in our native Countrey and approved by the godly there and are here by the company that doe so combine intended to be chosen afterwards for Pastors or Teachers and accordingly after the Church is gathered are in due time elected and ordained into their places Secondly but yet if there were none such among them at their first combining and uniting we doe not see how this could hinder them of liberty to choose Ministers to themselves afterward when God shall send any to them that may be fit for the worke because this is a liberty that Christ hath purchased for them by his precious bloud and they that are fit matter to bee combined into a Church-body are not so illiterate but they have learned the Doctrine of the holy Scripture in the fundamentall points thereof they have learned to know the Lord and their owne hearts they have learned Christ the need they have of him and of all the meanes of enjoying him the worth that is in him and the happinesse laid up for them in him and therefore they may not be reproached as illiterate or unworthy to choose their owne Ministers nay they have the best learning without which all other learning is but madnesse and folly and science falsly so called 1 Tim. 6. 20. and indeed of none account with God nor available for direction and guidance in the affaires of the house of God such as is this election of Ministers nor for the salvation of the soule in another world 1 Cor. 1. 19. 20. 2. 14 Job 32. 8. 9. though it may be and is very usefull therewith Thirdly you know and we doubt not doe abhorre as much as wee the spirit of those men that are proud of their owne learning and vilified Believers in Christ for want thereof saying Doe any of the Rulers or of the Pharisees believe in him but this people which know not the Law are cursed John 7. 47. 48. 49. First a company of fourty persons or twenty or lesse is not such a small company but they may be a Church properly and truely so called if there be nothing against them but this that such a number may seeme not sufficient We do not finde that God doth any where say they must be above fourty or else they cannot be a Church and therefore no mortall man can justly say it Nay rather that speech of Christ of two or three gathered together in his name Matth. 18. 20. doth plainly imply that if there be a greater number then two or three whom they being not satisfied in the answere of an offendor may appeale unto and in so doing tell the Church such a small number may be a Church and may have the blessing of his presence to be among them Besides the time hath been in the dayes of Adam and Noah when there was not fourty persons in the world and yet Adams family in his time and Noah● in his was in those dayes a Church if there was any Church on earth And if Christ and his twelve Disciples were the first Christian Church it is too much for any man to say that twenty or fourty is such a small company that they cannot be a Church Secondly for the matter of Government there is a difference between ability and right In respect of the former in as much as some cases are more difficult then others and some Churches of lesse spirituall abilities then others and God doth not afford assistance and direction at some times so much as at others therefore in such cases it is requisite that Churches should seeke for light and counsell and advice from other Churches as the Church at Antioch did send unto the Church at Ierusalem in a Question which could not bee determined among themselves Act. 15. 2. But this is not because they have no right but when they are not able Thirdly as for right let it be considered how the Church at Antioch did long endevour to have ended that matter amongst themselves before they determined to send to Ierusalem vers 2. which shewes that they had power or right to have transacted that businesse among themselves if ability had served or otherwise that endevour had been sinfull as being a presuming to doe that whereunto they had no right We conceive then that every Church properly so called though they be not above fourty or twenty persons or ten or the least number that you mention have right and power from Christ to transact all their owne Ecclesiasticall businesses among themselves if so be they be able and