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A02913 Obiections: answered by way of dialogue wherein is proved by the Law of God: by the law of our land: and by his Maties many testimonies that no man ought to be persecuted for his religion, so he testifie his allegeance by the Oath, appointed by law. Helwys, Thomas, 1550?-1616?, attributed name. aut; Murton, John, attributed name. aut 1615 (1615) STC 13054; ESTC S117349 47,923 88

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bee given great Pompe and Pride This power doth the like as all knowe I shall not need to speake of this in that all bookes are full and all consciences excepe those that are scrared with hot irons convinced here off Let but Maister Fox or any others who have described the spirituall power of Rome let but their discription thereof bee compared with this spirituall power in all their lawes Courts Titles Pompe Pride and crueltie and you shal see them very little differ except in their cruelties which glory bee to God the kings Ma tie who thirsteth not after blood hath some thinge rear a ne● although it is most grevious crueltie to lye divers yeres in most noysome and filthy prisons and continewall temtatione of want their estates overthrowne and never coming out many of them till death let it bee well weighed ād it is little inferior to the cruel suddaine death in times of the Romish power in this Nation I. It is very apparant it is that ymage or similitude off that Beast spoken of Revel 13. C. Oh yes for their is no such image of the Popish power vnder the Heavens as this wel our comfort is the stronge Lord hath said The Kings of the Earth by whose power both the beast and his image is supported shal take their power from hir then shall she stand naked and desolate and to this purpose his Majestie hath a worthie exhortation to all Princes etc. in his Apologie Pag. 103. The words are these For as she did flie but with your fethers borrowing as well hir titles of greatnes and formes of honoring hir from you as also enjoying all hir Temporall liveings by your liberalities so iff every man do but take his ovvne againe she vvill stand vp naked c. Oh that the VVords off GGD might bee accepted off his Majesty set downe by the Holy Ghost Rom. 2. Thou that teachest another teachest thou not they selff For iff he would take but his owne their titles of greatnes ād formes off honoring them and their temporal liveings this spiritual power would stand very naked and desolate I. Well the harts off Kings are in the hands of the Lord and he can turne them as the Rivers off water but I desire your advice for my owne estate I knowe every one must be are their owne burden I have a long time remained subiect to this spiritual power partely through ignorance and partely through feare C. I wil first declare vnto you the judgmēts of God against such as submit therevnto that so from an vtter abhorring thereof you may come out never to returne thither againe Secondly I will do the best I can to shewe you the way the Lord requireth you to walke in and that onely out of his word The judgments are so feareful as I tremble to thinke off them greater then which is not manifested in the whole booke off God Revel 14 9.10.11 And the third Anngell followed them sayinge with a lowde voyce iff any man Worship the Beast and his ymage and receive his marke in his forehead or on his hand the same shal drinck of the Wyne of the wrath of God yea of the pure Wyne that is powred into the Cup of his wrath he shal be tormented in fire and brimstone before the Holie Anngels and before the Lambe And the smoake of their torment shal ascend evermore and they shal have no rest day nor night which worship the Beast and his jmage and whosoever receiveth the print of his name I. I confesse these iudgments are to be trembled at but how do you apply them properly to such as worship in these assemblies C. For the satisfaction of al consciences herein that it may appeare playnly not to be gainsaid let vs cōsider the words of wisedome set downe in order as they lye And first what is ment by worship 2ly what by the Beast 3ly what his jmage is 4ly what his marke is ād lastly what is ment by forehead or hand And first for worship it is plentifully manifested in the scriptures that it is service subjectiō or obedience to such thinges as are comaunded by God or others as Mat. 4.10 Exo 20.5 dewt 13.4 and therefore his servāts wee are whome wee obey Rom. 6.16 and as the lord saith Iff I be your maister where is my feare if a Father where is myne honor or worship Mal. 1.6 2ly by Beast the scripture speaketh sometimes of cruel men in power and authority as Dan. 7.17 Luk. 13.31.32.2 Tim. 4.17 Sometimes of a blasphemous spiritual power exercised by men received off the Dragon exalting it selfe above God makeing war with the Saints and overcoming them and that hath power over every kindred and tongue and Nation so that al that dwell vpon the Earth worship him etc. And this is the Beast here spoken of even that spirituall power or jurisdiction of Rome which first wrought in a mistery and by degrees was exalted till at the last it was exalted to this cruell Beast discribed Revel 13.1 etc. Which Beast openeth his moueth to bla●phemy against ●od saying and practizing that the comaundements that God hath given for his service are not to bee regarded but in steed thereof setteth vp comaunds of his owne vnto the which whosoever will not bee subject excommunication and all crueltie even to death will ensue yea even with Gunpowder err it faile and for this his crueltie he is called a Beast Thirdly by Image is ment any forme shape similitude or resemblance of the thinge spoken of as Deut. 4.15.16 etc. Exo. 20 4 so that where soever such a spirituall power is as this aboue discribed there is the Beasts Image as in England the like power or Beast to the first is not to bee found vnder the Heavens in exaltation and cruelty Fourthly by marke is ment profession or practice whereby wee are knowne from others as Mat. 7.20 1. Iohn 2 2 Iohn 13.35 As badges or markes do put difference betwixt this Mans and that Mans in Cattel or servants as by such a mans marke wee knowe these are his sheepe and by such a Mās badg wee knowe this man belongeth to such a great man so they are said to have put on Christ that have received his baptisme Gal. 3.27 even as a servant is knowne by putting on his libery Lastly forehead or hand the holy Ghost vseth that phraise from the Old Testament where Gods people were commaunded not onely to lay vp his Commaunds in their harts and in their soules but to bind them for a signe vpon their hands that they might bee as frontiers betweene their eyes Dewt. 11.18 and 6.6.8 The wysedome of God therein teaching that the forehead and hād are the apparantest parts of the body to the view of all Men so that to receive the marke in the forehead or hand is to make manifest profession of him wee obey The some of all which is that whosoever openly professeth obedience and subjection to that Spirituall cruell
OBIECTIONS Answered by way of Dialogue wherein is proved By the Law of God By the law of our Land And by his Ma ties many testimonies That no man ought to be persecuted for his religion so he testifie his allegeance by the Oath appointed by Law 〈◊〉 2.4 He shal judg amonge the Nations re●uke many people they shal breake their swords also into mattocks their speares into sithes Nation shall not lift vp a sword against Nation neither shall they learne to feight any more 〈◊〉 11.9 Then shall none hurt nor destroy in all my Holy mountaine ● Cor. 10.4 For the weapons of our warrfare are not carnall but mighty through God to cast downe holds Printed 1615. To all that truely wish Ierusalems prosperity Babilons destruction wisedome vnderstanding be multiplied vpon you IN these days if ever that is true which the wisemā said Eccl. 12.12 there is none ēd in makeing many bookes much reading is a wearines to the flesh yet considering how heynous it is in the sight of the lord to force mē ād wemē by cruell persecutiōs to bring their bodies to a worship wherevnto they cannot bring their spirits wee thought it our duety for Gods glory the reformation thereof in this our owne natiō to publish this litle writing following wherein is manifestly proved by the law of God the law of our lād his Maties owne divers testimonies that no mā ought to be persecuted for his religiō be it true or false so they testifie their faithful allegiance to the King What shal men do striveing about matters of religion til this be ended For if this be truth that the kings of the earth have power frō God to cōpel by persecution all their subjects to beleeve as they beleeve then wicked is it to resist ād the persecutiōs of such is iustly vpon thē and the Magistrats that execute the same are clere frō their blood ād it is vpō their owne heads but if the kings of the Earth have not power from God to compel by persecution any of their subjects to beleeve as they beleeve seeing faith is the worke of God then no lesse wicked is it in the sight of God to disobey and the persecutions of such are vpō the Magistrats the blood of the persecuted crieth vnto the lord and wil be required at the Magistrats hands Wherefore in al humility reverēce ād loyalty wee do humbly desire of our soveraign lord the K ād al Gods ministers vnder him as Iudges Iustices of peace etc. by whome this persecutiō is executed thēselves to cōsider not whether herein they please lord Bbs but whether they please the lord Iesus Christ who after a little whyle shall judg all judges according to their workes without respect of persons ād therefore are comaunded to kisse the sonne least he be angrie they p●rish in the way psa 2. our humble desire is that they would consider what is testified in the scriptures that The kings of the Earth shall give their power vnto the Beast til the words of God be fulfilled thē shal they take their power from hir If it be granted as it is that the kings of this nation formerly have given their power vnto that Romish Beast it shal evidently appeare that our lord the king and al Magistrats vnder him do give their power to the sāe beast though the Beast be in another shape For as that spiritual power or beast of Rome sets vp a worship as they pretend for God and force al therto by cruel persecutiōs the kings of the earth giveing their power therevnto so this spirituall power or beast of Englād sets vp a worship as they pretend for God and force al thereto by cruel persecutiōs the kings Ma tie giveing his power here vnto Oh that al that are in authority would but cōsider by the word of God which shal judg them at the last day what they do when they force men against their soules ād consciences to dissemble to beleeve as they beleeve or as the K and state beleeves they would withdrawe their hands ād harts therefrom ād never do as they have done partely through inconsideration and partely to please lord Bbs being in favour with the King It cannot but with high thāk fulnes to God ād to the king be aknowledged of al that the kings Ma tie is no blood thirsty man for if he were bodily destruction should be the portion of al that feare God and endeavor to walke in his waies as may be seene in the primitive time of this spirituall power or beast of England after that king Henry de 8. had cast of the Romish beast ād since so far as leave hath bene graunted them by hanging burning banishing imprisoning ād what not as the particulars might bee named Yet our most humble desire of our lord the king is that he would not give his power to force his faithful subjects to dissemble to beleeve as he beleeves in the least measure of persecution though it is no smale persecution to lye many yeares in filthy prisons in hunger cold jdlenes devided from wife family calling left in continual meseries ād tēptations so as death would be to many lesse persecution seeing his Ma tie confesseth that to change the mynd must bee the work of God And of the lord Bbs wee desire that they would a little leave of persecuringe those that cannot beleeve as they til they have proved that God is welpleased therewith and the soules of such as submit in safety from condēnation let them prove this and wee protest we wil for ever submit vnto them and so wil thousands and therefore if there bee any sparke off grace in thē let thē set thēselves to give satisfaction either by word or writing or both But if they wil not but continue their cruel courses as they have done let them yet remēber that they must come to judgment and have their abhominations set in order before them ād be torne in peeces when none shal deliver them And whereas they have no other cullor of ground out of the scriptures then that they have Cano●●zed a law viz that whosoever shal affirme hat the K Ma hath not the same power ove● the church that the godly kings of Israel had vnder the law c Let him be excomunicate ipso facto The vnsound 〈…〉 s of which ground is manifested in this Dialogue followeing wherein is shewed their pal●able ignorance in that they knowe not the mi 〈…〉 iay of God and therefore have they made this canon in flattery to the king onely to support their pride and cruelty for if the kingdome or and of Israell or Canaan now vnder the gospel be an earthly kingdome or land or Israel now a worldly or fleshly Israell as both were vnder the law Then wee would confesse there should be an earthly king therof but if the king some of Israel now be not earthly but heavēly Ioh. 18.36
whē the fulnes of the gentiles is come in the jewes shal be cōverted now if the jewes who are such fearefull blasphemers of Christ ād his gospel that contemne him and his Testamēt with al dispyte if their conversion must be waited for ād that they may not be destroyed from the face of the Earth then who may not see iff they shut not their eies that the conversion off all is to bee waited for and that no man for blaspheming Christ ād his gospel map be destroyed or afflicted by imprisonments death or any calamitie whatsoever I. It is not to be gain-saied with any shewe of truth I would God the Kings Ma tie would consider of this point seeing that the cruel Bbs by vseing his power commit such sin against God in this thinge both in persecuting thē that cannot of faith yeild and also in foreeing them that do yeild contrary to their consciences to sin against God and to perish if they repēt not C. I am perswaded that if his highnes did but once wel wey ād consider it he would never suffer such high iniquitie to be co●●i●ted against God contrary to his expresse comaundement ād all to bee done by ●he Kings power for nothing have they els to beare them out The Lord perswade the harts of his Ma tie and his posterity vnto it seeing his throne is established by him that he and his posterity may sit raigne over these Nations and Kingdoms till Iesus Christ the comaunder of these thinges come in his glorie to recompence every Man according to his workes without respect of persons A. If vvicked malefactors should bee let allone to the end of the vvorld then vvhere is the Magistrats svvorde it is of no force if evil men may not be cut of C. I acknowledg vnfainedly that God hath given to Magistrats a sword to cut of wicked mē and to reward the weldoers Rom. 13 chap. But this Ministery is a worldly Ministery their sword is a worldly sword their punishments can extend no further then the outward man they can but kil the bodie Luk. 12.4 And therefore this Ministery and sword is apointed onely to punish the breach of worldly ordināces which is al that God hath given to any mortal man to punish The King may make lawes for the safetie ād good of his person state and subjects against the which whosoever is disloyall or disobedient he may dispose of at his pleasure the Lord hath given him this sword and authoritie forseeing in his eternal wisedome that if this his ordinance of Magistracie were nor there would be no liveing for men in the world and especially for the Godly ād therefore the Godly have particular cause to glorifie God for this his blessed ordinance of Magistracie and to regard it with all reverence But now the breach of Christs lawes of the which wee all this while speake which is the thinge onely I stand vpon his Kingdome is spirituall his lawes spirituall the transgressions spirituall the punishment spirituall everlasting death of soule his sword spirituall no carnall or worldly weapon is given to the supportation of his kingdome nor to punish the transgressors of the lawes of this kingdome The law-giver himself hath comaunded that the transgressors of these lawes should be set alone vntil the harvest because he knowes they that are now tares may hereafter come to repētance and b●come wheat they that are now blasphemers persecutors oppressors as Paul was may by the power of Gods word become faithfull and a faithful witnes as he was They that are now fornicators etc. as some of the Corin once were 1 Cor. 6.9 may here after become washed clensed sanctified as they were they that are now to people nor vnder mercie as the Saints sometimes were 1. Pet. 2.10 may hereafter become the people of god obtaine mercie as they did all come not at the First houre some come not till the eleaventh houre if those that come not till the last houre should be destroyed because they come not at the first houre then should they never come but be prevented A. Were not blasphemers put to death in time of he lavv 1 evit 24.11 c. C. Yes an Isralite blasphemmy the Lord or doeing any thinge presumptiously which was blasphemy Num. 15.30 no sacrifice to bee offered for him but would you from hence have the kings Ma tie to put al his subjects to death that conteinne the truth of Christ If yea see what will followe All Papists ought to be put to death who are direct blasphemers Revel 16 10.11 VVhen the viall of Gods wrath was powred vpon the throne of the Beast which all England confesse is ment the Popish power they blasphemed the God of Heaven c. All the Iewes that speake many thinges blasphemously against Christ ought to be put to death Yea of what profession soever he bee doeing any thinge presumpteously against Christ ought to bee put to death by your affirmation no sacrifice to bee offered no repentance to be admitted dye he must vnder two or three witnesses but that this is most false Christ and his Appostles in his Testamēt doth manifestli declare as is before shewed was no Paul a blasphemer yet received to mercie But this the Holie Ghost teacheth from blasphemy vnder the law Heb. 10. He that dispyseth Moses Lawe dieth without mercie vnder two or three witnesses of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall he bee worthy that treadeth vnder foote the Sonne of God counteth the blood off the Testament as an vnholy thinge wherewith he was sanctified doth dispite the Spirit of grace Speaking of such as had received acknowledged the truth vers 26. This is now the due proportion an Israelite according to the flesh in the time of the law presumpteously sinninge against Gods comaundemēt by his comaund must dye by the worldly sworde no sacrifice to be offered for him so in the new Testament or time of the gospel a spiritual Isralite according to the faith contempteously or dispitefully sinning against Christs commaund he hath former acknowledged dispi●eing and contemning them by his comaund must dye by the spirituall sword no repentance to be admitted seeing he crucifyeth againe to himself the sonne of God makes a mock of him Heb. 6.6 David and Peter came not within this compasse though they sinned off knowledg yet they did it not comtemteously or dispitefully but through frailtie If an Isralite vnder the Law did ought through ignorance as Num. 15. or through frailtie as Levit. 6. There was sacrifice for him so vnder the gospel an Isralit doeing ought through ignorāce or through frailtie as Peter and Barnabas with the rest of the Iewes mencioned Gal. 2. or the me●steous person 1. Cor. 5. There is repentance for him This is it that cōfounds al true religiō That be cause it was so in the time of the law therefore it may be so in the time of the gospell by
power off Rome The Beast or to that Spirituall cruell power off England his Image wheresoever they or eyther of them are exalted such a one and such persons shall drinke off the wine off Gods wrath and bee tormented in fire and brimstone and shall have no rest day nor night for evermore I. Your discription of the Beast the Papists will deny so will the English Lord Bbs and their followers deny your discription of his ymage but thousands will grant both and some will deny both as the Familists who say that Religiō standeth not in outward thinges ād therefore they wil submit to any outward service and they that do not so but suffex persecution say they are iustly persecuted C. Those enimies to the Crosse of Christ are most of them not worth enformation because for the most part they are such as do with an high hand sin after enlightninge haveing forsaken the way wherein they walked because they would not beare Christs Crosse but in that some simple soules may be seduced by them let vs a little in generall compare their opinion with the scriptures True it is that religion standeth not onely in outward thinges for God requireth the hart and truth in the inward parts but that God requireth not our subjection vpon feareful punishments to those outward ordinances which he requireth is a doctrine of devils as I shall prove And first for the outward ordinances off the old Testamēt which were meerly shadowes now are beggerly rudiments Gal. 4.16 what indignation the lord had towards them that transgressed Nadab and Abihu offering straing fire which the Lord hath not comaunded a fire went out from the Lord devoured them Levit. 10.1.2 The men off Bethsh●mosh lokeing into the outward arke which God had forbidden Num 4.20 The Lord slevve fifty thousand threescore and ten of them 1. Sam. 6.19 Ozza of a good intent leaninge his shoulder to the same outward arke which God forbad the Lord slewe him 1. Chro. 13 7.-10 Ozziah the King offering vp outward incense which God comaunded onely the Preist Num. 18.3.7 The Lord smit him with leprosye vntil his death 2. Chro. 26. Corah and his company what feareful judgments came vpon thē though he a Levite for presuming to meddle with the Preists office the earth openinge and swallowing them vp Num. 16. King Saule likewise offering vp incense in time off need as he thought the Lord rent his Kingdome from him 1. Sā 13. as also for his disobedience afterwards touchinge the fat of Amelecks cattle 1. Sā 15. How often was the wrath of the Lord powred downe vpon the Isralites because off their transgression of his outward ordinances in place person and thinges for it was a Low Levit. 17.3.4 That who so brought not his sacrifice to the place viz to the doore of the tabernacle of the congregation but offered it vp other where blood should be imputed to that man he should be cut off from among his people yea such sacrifices were estemed off God as offered to devils vers 7. the lord caused them to pronounce Dewt. 27.26 cursed be he that confirmeth not al the words of thir law to do them all the people must say so be it was God thus jealous of Moses ordinances ād is the lesse jelous of Christs must he die that dispiseth Moses law and shal he escape that dispiseth Christs vpon what pretence soever And Christ saith It becometh him all his to fulfill all righteousnes in outward ordināces as washinge with water Mat. 3.15 whosoever saith he knoweth God keepeth not his comaundments which are outward as wel as inward he is a lyar 1. Ioh. 2.4 whosoever breakes the least comaundment and teacheth men so he shal be called the least in the kingdome of heaven Mat. 5.19 whosoever will not heare that Prophet Chr Iesus in al thinges that he shal say vnto thē shal be destroyed out off his people Act. 3.22.23 the affectiōs of the soule are to be manifested by the actions of the body according to Gods word and al other good intēts or affections are abhominable Wee may not neither can wee Worship God with our Spirits and the Devill with our Bodies For VVee are bought VVith a price and therefore must not bee the Servants off Men but must glorifie God with our bodies with out spirits for they are his 1. Cor. 6.20 and. 7.23 And this mai suffice to satisfy any cōcerning the over throwe off this accursed conceit knowing also that Christ and his Apostles and all his Disciples to the end of the world might and may live peaceably enough from persecution if this doctrine might be observed viz submissiō with our bodies to any outward service The Lord discover such Hipocrites I. I blesse God I have learned of thApostle 2. Cor. 13.8 To say nothing against the truth but for the truth and therefore when I see thinges are evidently manifested by the scriptures disirous to submit ād not to cavil But you knowe it is pleaded they have the word and Sacraments in the English assemblies C. I confesse they have the scriptures in the which Gods misceries are conteyned which is locked vp from thē ād revealed to his Saincts Col. 1.26 which they woefully pervert to their owne destruction They have also imitations of Gods ordinances as water bread and wine ād other thinges which they use after their owne invētions which thinges maketh them boast so much of their Christianity and of their Church and which maketh them reason thus Wee are Gods people for wee have the word and Sacraments The Philistimes might better have reasoned 1. Sā 5. who had the true arke of God amongst them these have but a shewe Wee are Gods people for wee have Gods Arke and holy Oracles amongst vs. But I thinke they had no great cause to rejoyce there of in the ēd No more shal these have in the end when God recompenceth al that with hold the truth in vnrighteousnes Gods dealing is not now as it was of old he now reserveth punishmēt to the last day he is patiēt and would have men repent but they despise his bountifulnes and long suffering preaching peace when there is no peace I. It cannot be denyed but that the ministers preach many excellent truths and do bring people to much reformation in many thinges C. True it cannot be denyed For if the devil should come in his owne likenes men would resist him but because he trāsformeth himselfe into an Angel of light therefore he deceiveth So his ministers if they should teach al lyes mē would not be deceived by them nor plead for them but because they teach many truths people receive them but first for whatsoever they teach they neither could nor should teach publiquely their moueths should be stopped if they received not that their power to teach such truths frō those the Dragon sends ād therefore none cā receive those truths from thē