for although there may be a visible Church without a Pastor as when the Pastor dieth the Church is not unchurched yet can there be no Pastor of a Church unless there be such a Church in being And for your Succession since the last pretended Reformation it was interrupted in Queen Maries daies when a Popish Priest was your Predecessor who had his autoritie from the Bishop who was a Papist and held of the Pope 〈◊〉 could tell you their names i◠need were And neither that Priest or any of his Successors ever since have had any other calling or Ordination but from the Bishops as long as they were standing Pr. If this were true touching Succession yet you cannot denie but that we have the word and Sacraments and a companie of faithful Christians communicating in those Ordinances under a faithfull Pastor are a visible Church of Christ Ph. Touching the Word and Sacraments I have alreadie given you an answr and indeed the Papists and almost all Hereticks pretend as you do and have the word amongst them and their Ministers or Priests have as orderly a Calling and Ordination as yours have and yet this makes them not the true visible Churches of Christ as all you do acknowledg Pr. I do not conceive that the Papists have either the Word or Sacraments amongst them for that the word is so corrupted by their false Glosses and Translations that it s made a leaden rule to be bowed everie way to serve their own turn for upholding their superstitions and their service is in Latine which the common people understand not And for the Sacrament of Baptisme it hath so manie additions that the Nature of it is destroied And for their Ministerie they are professed Papists and adversaries to Christ in all his Offices Ph. I do confess their Ministers are no Ministers of Christ but lims of Antichrist in respect of their Callings yet I do not condemn them all as Reprobates no more then I do Pope Gregorie the great Thomas a Kempis Ferus Stella and other their Preachers whom I think to have been godly and devout men in their times And for corrupting the Scriptures if putting false Glosses upon them make Gods word cease to be Gods word then are you Formalists deeply guiltie for the vulgar Translation is abominably corrupt and yet you allowed it and manie of you used it translated in the late Service-Book And all that you alledge for your succession of Ministerie and visible Churches your Classes Councels and Synods their autoritie over other Churches compelling others by the Temporall Power to believe and worship God as they see best is in effect grounded upon or agreeing with the corrupt Glosses and notes of the Rhemists upon the New Testament and other popish Authors and thence fetched by the late Formalists to defend themselves against the Puretans And for the Latine Service it is much like our Organ Anthems both edifying alike and the one as tollerable as the other See the old Protestant and New Formalist Pa. 36. 37. And concerning the Papists addition of Cream Salt Spittle c. to the Sacrament of Baptisme I confess the addition wicked and abominable and yet no worse haply nor so bad as the Cross which you received and used for that serves to blesse or rather conjure all the rest and is honored with Divine honour and an holie daie appointed for it And yet I must tell you that with one consent you allow of this Sacrament administred by the Papists who do not administer it but with these additions to be a true Sacrament And you hold that those who were baptized by Papists are not to be rebaptized Pr. For my part I have cast off these corruptions and am constant to those principles tending to Reformation which others my Reverend Brethren of the Clergie have approved of and I am now about to set up the Government of Christ in my Parish Ph. I fully understand your designe you and your fellowes intend the old but not the oldest way of pretended Reformation wherein you shuffle and cut as fast as Hocus Pocus and your proceedings are so ridiculous that everie indifferent capacitie hath light enough through your figleaves to see your nakedness Pr. Wherein are we guiltie of such shufling or why are we so ridiculous Ph. In your proceedings for upholding your Parishes you pretend one thing viz. Reformation but your end and designe is to avoid the danger of loosing your Livings in case the Parishes should be dissolved Pr. I know nothing we do for which we can be justly censured we continue our preaching and do endeavour to settle Presbyterian Government according to Gods word Ph. For your preaching I earnestly desire you may sincerely applie your selves to it for that probably may do some good but for your other fetches and devices they savour more of Politicks then Religion squared by Gods word Pr. What Policie can there be in setling the Presbyterian Government with the Classes and Synods we settle nothing but what we are willing likewise to submit unto and to be judged by as well as the people Ph. Let the Government be what it will so your Livings and estates may be secured it s no great matter if the Parlament please but to declare that all your Parishes are visible Churches that you may hold them intire and the people be inforced to pay you all your Tithes Oblations obventions Mortuaries and other dues you will be satisfied and wait for further Reformation when it may stand with your honour and profit And upon that condition you will submit to the present Government of the Common-wealth But if your interest in these things be interrupted or in danger you know no other way to secure them but by setling this Government And this is the mark at which you shoot take but a view of those places your own Parish for one where the Elders are chosen do they serve for anie thing but Cyphers or do you and they act anie thing towards Reformation but meerly to this end and purpose Pr. I do confess if the Churches were equall or independent so there were Government as well in Church as Common-wealth and other things in order it might be well And where the Elders are chosen if Reformation go not on it is because the Elders refuse to act or joyne with the Minister Ph. I confess I know some nominated for Elders who make scruple to joyne with you in your business haply because they have found out your deceit which is meerly to make a shew of Reformation but your chief end is the securing your Livings Pr. That is not the cause of their refusal it is because the Parlament doth not arme them with power to execute their Offices and compell obedience to their injunctions as is fit for Ecclesiastical Magistrates Ph. If your proceedings were of God you would not need the secular Power to compel to obedience such as are within the Church and for those which
in the Church untill the harvest are hypocrites profane men shall be cashiered or rather never admitted into the Churches of Christ But I cannot devise how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seem as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5. 1. compared with chap. 3. 1. 3. chap. 4. 10. Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit. l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14. 23. Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I hâ—ld it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert. de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9 And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he hath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had
a cause as a Proctor once said untill dooms day if he lived so long These are not so likely to do good as the superintendencie of Bishops which grew up within the first three hundred years after Christ and were ordained as was pretended for a remedie against Schisme and Heresie which yet proved more dangerous then the disease and made way for Antichrist the head of Prelacie The Commission granted by King Henrie the eight to the Lord Crumwell Fox Acts and Monum. vol. 1. pag. 503. to visit the Clergie And the High-Comission Stat. 1. Eliz. ch. 1. granted in the first year of Queen Elizabeths Raign had as great shew and Probabilitie of doing good as these Classes and Synods And for present I conceive did some good But when wicked men became High Commissioners that proved a notable scourge to the godlie of the Land And so will your Classes and Synods in a short time when wicked and ambitious men get into the chief places and Power prove as bad if not worse because they be more then the High Commissioners who were but two and thirtie And this through the just judgment of God because these Policies are not of his appointment Pr. Why should you say so Ph. Because God never useth to bless means devised by man to accomplish his work in things appertaining to Religion especially when they come in Competition with those things which he hath appointed when men's posts are set up by God's Posts or when Go'ds means are laid aside For example God hath ordained his word and the Censures of the Church to keep and drive out the profane and to bring them to Repentance and amendment of life Instead of these the State erected or rather continued from the Papists the Spiritual Courts or rather Baudie Courts whose Officers lived upon the bloud of the best and the sin of the worst I need not tell you what profit or rather hurt came to all sorts of men by this means To come a little nearer to that which hath a little more shew of State-Religion The Parlaments of this Nation have made several Acts Ordinances for reformation of offences against profaning of the the Lords day and against swearing and drunkenness but the Church-Censures have not been used for those ends See but the effect what good these Laws have done no reformation much less any repentance in the Delinquents for the punishments touch not the heart and soul But for the present cause the sinner to rage and raile and some to vow to be avenged of those who accuse them and some to sin on purpose to provoke others who are more grieved for their transgressions then they themselvs or because of the sleight punishment appointed for expiation of such offences whereas if Gods waies were taken up he would bless the same for the conversion and amendment of such as belonged to him and the rest would either be outwardly reformed or at least left without excuse So then if these things be not of God I shall expect no good from them And can those things which are meerly prudential overtop those things which undoubtedly are of divine institution The foolishness of God is wiser then man Pr. But you said even now that those who put the Parlament upon these things have their ends and aimes in them What good or profit can they have by such Classes Synods or Appeals Ph. They do much conduce to uphold their double honour which they labour so much for I conceive the chief Engineers for contrivance of these things are the greatest and wealthiest of the pretended Clergie who have the greatest power in everie Countie which they extend to the utmost having an oare almost in everie boat and they take themselvs wronged if they may not order or contrive all designs both concerning peace and war nay and their projects reach verie far take but a view of the late great designes wherein besides their secret interests in particular States-men which they extended far and wherein they prevailed much Their publick preaching was almost nothing but Politicks in manie places Their fear was and yet is that the Parlament and Armie complying would spoil their great livings and countenance their opposites more then they and so the wheeles of their Chariots would fall of This fear they tearmed the miserie and danger of the Church as the late Arch-Priest Laud did in a case not much unlike theirs And their praiers and preaching must prevent it if possible and further their designe which was First to raise a new war and then to prepare the sillie people to entertain the Scots as avengers of the Covenant to perfect that design which was to set up that Government and Platform which they had modelled as neer the Scotch fashion as would stand with their honour and profit and by their subtiltie and earnestness they prevailed much upon the people and manie of the more religious sort believed them both in Citie and Countrie During this time they bent all their force against Rebels Hereticks Schismaticks and Sectaries which they said did much endanger the Church that is the Diana of their great Livings Well it pleased God by part of that Armie of Sectaries whom some of these men had cursed and scoffed at by the name of Saints to frustrate the design by scattering the enemies Armie almost miraculously which was not prepared for relief of the Church as our Clergie told us but to root out and destroie the godlie of the Land But the snare is broken and we are delivered blessed be God and there that design ended Now these men fall to work afresh and if you will believe them the Hereticks and Sectaries do again threaten the destruction of the Church of God and more hurt comes to the Church by these Hereticks and Sectaries then did by all the Marian Persecution and accordingly the people in manie places begin to believe them as they did before But the Center where all their lines meet and the Axis upon which they turn is their honour and profit for for if they can hold their own they have and will have all the best livings all the peoples heads under their girdles and all the power in the Classes and Synods and so upon the point the power of the Countie and of the whole Common-wealth and will without doubt reign in the Consciences of all sorts of men and incroach upon the Temporal power as much as their Predecessors the Prelates did before And this must needs conduce to their honour and profit Pr. Alas it cannot be conceived that so learned Orthodox men should aime at such ends being for the most part godly painful Preachers of the word Pr. I do not judge all Ministers but conceive many to be faithful but I speak of the most of those whom you account the best the Ringleaders chief Projectors and rigid of the Presbyterial Partie whose preaching for the most part is but reading and their Sermons for the most