1_o the_o substance_n of_o their_o call_n consist_v not_o in_o this_o lay_n on_o of_o hand_n but_o in_o some_o thing_n else_o and_o what_o shall_v that_o be_v but_o their_o election_n by_o the_o people_n 2._o if_o it_o be_v nothing_o but_o a_o sign_n of_o pray_v over_o then_o then_o why_o be_v a_o consummatory_n rite_n and_o a_o benedictory_n sign_n gainsay_v and_o oppose_v for_o what_o great_a difference_n be_v there_o between_o a_o sign_n of_o prayer_n and_o a_o benedictory_n sign_n and_o how_o shall_v he_o be_v reconcile_v with_o himself_o that_o say_v it_o be_v nothing_o but_o such_o a_o sign_n of_o pray_v and_o yet_o will_v not_o yield_v that_o it_o be_v only_o a_o benedictory_n sign_n and_o for_o the_o other_o particular_a where_o he_o say_v this_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n be_v enjoy_v to_o timothy_n as_o a_o ministerial_a act_n if_o by_o ministerial_a act_n he_o mean_v a_o act_n that_o can_v be_v lawful_o perform_v by_o none_o but_o only_o by_o a_o minister_n then_o i_o desire_v some_o proof_n that_o this_o be_v so_o enjoin_v to_o timothy_n that_o it_o be_v enjoin_v to_o he_o i_o grant_v but_o that_o it_o be_v so_o enjoin_v needs_o some_o better_a proof_n than_o a_o bare_a and_o naked_a affirmation_n special_o since_o many_o thing_n be_v enjoin_v to_o timothy_n in_o those_o example_n which_o be_v and_o be_v just_o applyable_a to_o all_o christian_n furthermore_o suppose_v it_o be_v true_a that_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v enjoin_v to_o timothy_n as_o a_o ministerial_a act_n how_o do_v this_o reach_n to_o make_v good_a the_o thing_n in_o question_n what_o shall_v hinder_v but_o the_o people_n election_n may_v contain_v the_o substance_n of_o a_o minister_n call_v notwithstanding_o or_o how_o do_v it_o therefore_o follow_v that_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v not_o a_o consummatory_n rite_n or_o benedictory_n sign_n but_o something_o more_o be_v there_o any_o such_o necessary_a consequence_n here_o that_o the_o one_o of_o these_o must_v needs_o follow_v upon_o the_o other_o for_o my_o part_n i_o see_v it_o not_o nor_o see_v any_o thing_n to_o the_o contrary_a but_o if_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v such_o a_o ministerial_a act_n as_o he_o say_v it_o be_v yet_o it_o may_v still_o be_v mere_o a_o consummatory_n rite_n or_o benedictory_n sign_n and_o the_o substance_n of_o the_o call_n consist_v still_o in_o the_o people_n election_n himself_o do_v say_v as_o we_o hear_v even_o now_o that_o imposition_n of_o hand_n act._n 6._o though_o here_o he_o call_v it_o a_o ministerial_a act_n be_v nothing_o but_o a_o sign_n of_o pray_v over_o the_o deacon_n and_o therefore_o these_o two_o to_o be_v a_o ministerial_a act_n and_o yet_o to_o be_v nothing_o but_o a_o sign_n of_o prayer_n or_o benedictory_n sign_n which_o to_o i_o be_v the_o same_o be_v not_o so_o inconsistent_a by_o his_o own_o doctrine_n but_o that_o they_o may_v well_o stand_v together_o and_o himself_o do_v also_o hold_v that_o the_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n mention_v numb_a 8._o 10._o be_v a_o ministerial_a act_n and_o that_o they_o who_o do_v it_o perform_v the_o same_o as_o ecclesiastical_a elder_n and_o yet_o i_o hope_v he_o will_v not_o deny_v that_o the_o substance_n of_o the_o levite_n call_v be_v in_o the_o immediate_a designment_n and_o appointment_n of_o the_o lord_n and_o not_o in_o the_o performance_n of_o this_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n and_o therefore_o it_o follow_v that_o if_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n be_v grant_v to_o be_v a_o ministerial_a act_n yet_o still_o it_o may_v be_v mere_o a_o benedictory_n sign_n and_o the_o substance_n or_o essence_n of_o the_o minister_n call_v not_o consist_v in_o it_o but_o in_o some_o thing_n else_o a_o ministerial_a call_n stand_v in_o a_o authoritative_a send_n rom._n 10._o 15._o and_o i_o see_v not_o well_o how_o the_o people_n do_v send_v a_o minister_n to_o themselves_o answ_n but_o it_o be_v not_o easy_a to_o see_v how_o they_o choose_v a_o man_n for_o a_o minister_n to_o themselves_o be_v send_v unto_o they_o by_o god_n and_o if_o god_n do_v furnish_v a_o man_n with_o gift_n and_o a_o holy_a propensity_n of_o mind_n to_o the_o work_n in_o general_a and_o to_o such_o or_o such_o a_o people_n in_o particular_a and_o make_v way_n by_o his_o providence_n thereto_o than_o who_o can_v deny_v but_o such_o a_o man_n be_v send_v of_o god_n unto_o that_o people_n and_o then_o if_o that_o people_n observe_v god_n send_v of_o he_o in_o this_o sâ—â—t_n do_v hereupon_o elect_v and_o choose_v he_o and_o promise_v to_o be_v obedient_a to_o he_o in_o the_o lord_n what_o be_v there_o now_o want_v to_o the_o substance_n and_o offence_n of_o such_o a_o man_n calling_n to_o such_o a_o people_n and_o yet_o the_o man_n be_v not_o send_v by_o they_o to_o themselves_o but_o send_v by_o god_n and_o receive_v and_o choose_v by_o they_o parcus_n understand_v this_o send_n rom._n 10._o of_o god_n send_v and_o so_o do_v piscator_fw-la and_o who_o not_o and_o to_o understand_v it_o otherwise_o will_v be_v to_o condemn_v the_o prophet_n and_o apostle_n who_o be_v not_o send_v by_o man_n at_o all_o and_o yet_o do_v true_o answer_v this_o scripture_n in_o that_o they_o be_v send_v of_o god_n true_a it_o be_v ordinary_a minister_n be_v not_o send_v of_o god_n in_o such_o a_o extraordinary_a way_n as_o the_o prophet_n and_o apostle_n be_v but_o in_o a_o ordinary_a way_n and_o by_o ordinary_a mean_n which_o way_n and_o mean_n if_o they_o do_v observe_v they_o also_o may_v be_v true_o say_v to_o be_v send_v of_o god_n unto_o the_o people_n but_o peradventure_o our_o brother_n mean_v that_o the_o people_n may_v not_o lawful_o choose_v a_o man_n for_o minister_v unto_o themselves_o except_o he_o be_v first_o send_v unto_o they_o in_o a_o authoritative_a way_n by_o some_o other_o man_n and_o that_o otherwise_o he_o be_v not_o send_v unto_o they_o of_o god_n which_o if_o it_o be_v true_a than_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o the_o apostle_n and_o prophet_n as_o i_o say_v be_v not_o send_v of_o god_n for_o plain_a it_o be_v that_o man_n send_v they_o not_o it_o will_v also_o hereupon_o be_v requisite_a to_o be_v clear_v that_o some_o man_n beside_o the_o church_n have_v authority_n to_o send_v minister_n to_o the_o church_n and_o who_o these_o man_n be_v that_o have_v such_o authority_n have_v need_v to_o be_v clear_v also_o which_o i_o for_o my_o part_n think_v will_v not_o be_v do_v in_o haste_n and_o till_o this_o be_v do_v i_o know_v no_o reason_n but_o i_o may_v still_o retain_v this_o apprehension_n that_o man_n who_o be_v qualify_v according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o word_n and_o due_o elect_v and_o choose_v to_o some_o office_n of_o the_o ministry_n by_o god_n people_n be_v true_o send_v of_o god_n unto_o that_o people_n the_o people_n have_v not_o either_o formal_o or_o by_o grant_n of_o christ_n virtual_o the_o key_n commit_v to_o they_o how_o then_o can_v they_o give_v the_o key_n to_o pastor_n answ_n yet_o in_o p._n 7._o he_o tell_v we_o that_o he_o deny_v not_o but_o there_o be_v a_o power_n virtual_a not_o formal_a in_o the_o church_n of_o believer_n to_o supply_v the_o want_n of_o ordination_n of_o pastor_n or_o some_o other_o act_n of_o the_o key_n simple_o necessary_a hic_fw-la &_o nunc_fw-la and_o this_o power_n say_v he_o be_v virtual_a not_o formal_a now_o to_o say_v they_o have_v this_o power_n neither_o formal_o nor_o virtual_o and_o yet_o to_o say_v they_o have_v this_o power_n virtual_o though_o not_o formal_o what_o be_v it_o but_o a_o apparent_a contradiction_n but_o suppose_v it_o be_v true_a that_o the_o people_n have_v not_o this_o power_n either_o formal_o or_o virtual_o yet_o mr._n ball_n and_o mr._n baiâ—s_v afore_o he_o do_v tell_v we_o that_o ministerial_o they_o may_v give_v what_o they_o never_o have_v viz._n as_o minister_a to_o he_o who_o have_v power_n and_o virtue_n of_o derive_v it_o as_o a_o man_n not_o 〈◊〉_d a_o penny_n of_o his_o own_o may_v give_v a_o 100_o l._n if_o the_o king_n make_v he_o his_o almoner_n thus_o the_o church_n derive_v aâ—_n take_v the_o person_n who_o christ_n describe_v and_o out_o of_o power_n will_v â—ave_n place_v in_o this_o or_o that_o office_n in_o his_o church_n the_o power_n of_o the_o imperial_a dignity_n be_v not_o in_o the_o elector_n of_o the_o emperor_n nor_o the_o power_n of_o that_o office_n and_o authority_n whereunto_o a_o minister_n be_v elect_v in_o the_o church_n who_o choose_v he_o to_o that_o office_n ball_n trial_n of_o separate_a pag._n 239_o 240._o pag._n 494_o 495._o people_n may_v as_o the_o sheep_n of_o christ_n discern_v his_o voice_n joh._n 10._o and_o so_o have_v a_o power_n of_o election_n of_o their_o own_o pastor_n nor_o do_v this_o
to_o end_v their_o maâ—â—ers_n if_o they_o be_v able_a extempt_v they_o from_o be_v under_o the_o command_n of_o other_o hoshoulder_n have_v right_a to_o govern_v and_o order_v their_o family_n if_o so_o be_v that_o they_o be_v able_a do_v it_o follow_v therefore_o that_o superior_n in_o church_n or_o civil_a state_n have_v no_o power_n to_o command_v householder_n to_o do_v their_o duty_n herein_o but_o only_o to_o give_v counsel_n and_o advise_v or_o if_o housholdere_fw-la have_v such_o right_n do_v it_o follow_v that_o therefore_o they_o be_v under_o no_o command_n in_o church_n and_o commonwealth_n i_o suppose_v it_o will_v not_o follow_v at_o all_o or_o shall_v we_o say_v that_o class_n and_o provincial_n synod_n have_v no_o right_a to_o end_v their_o own_o matter_n within_o themselves_o if_o a_o national_n synod_n have_v power_n to_o command_v they_o or_o if_o they_o have_v such_o right_n shall_v we_o therefore_o say_v they_o be_v not_o under_o the_o command_n of_o the_o national_n synod_n and_o that_o the_o national_n synod_n have_v no_o power_n over_o they_o but_o only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advise_v we_o suppose_v master_n rutherford_n will_v not_o say_v so_o and_o yet_o he_o may_v as_o well_o say_v it_o as_o say_v as_o he_o he_o do_v that_o because_o antioch_n have_v right_a to_o â—nd_v she_o own_o matter_n if_o they_o be_v able_a therefore_o a_o synod_n have_v no_o power_n but_o only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advise_v and_o though_o the_o synod_n be_v to_o give_v counsel_n and_o advise_v which_o be_v the_o other_o ground_n whereon_o the_o conclusy_a afore_v mention_v seem_v to_o be_v build_v yet_o neither_o will_v master_n rutherford_n his_o conclusâ—on_n that_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n be_v only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advise_v follow_v from_o thence_o at_o all_o for_o who_o know_v not_o that_o counsel_n and_o advise_v may_v be_v administer_v and_o give_v by_o they_o who_o have_v also_o power_n to_o command_v not_o every_o one_o indeed_o as_o may_v advise_v and_o counsel_n may_v forth_o with_o command_n and_o enjoin_v nevertheless_o counsel_n and_o command_n be_v not_o so_o repugnant_a but_o that_o they_o who_o may_v command_v may_v also_o advise_v paul_n have_v power_n to_o command_v and_o enjoin_v phylâ—mon_a to_o do_v what_o be_v convenient_a and_o yet_o for_o love_n sake_n will_v rather_o beseech_v he_o philem_n 8._o 9_o the_o lord_n jesus_n to_o doubt_n have_v absolute_a authority_n to_o command_v and_o yet_o we_o find_v he_o sometime_o speak_v to_o the_o son_n of_o man_n by_o way_n of_o counsel_n or_o advise_v revel_v 3._o â—8_o i_o counsel_v thou_o to_o buy_v of_o i_o gold_n that_o thou_o may_v he_o rich_a etc._n etc._n shall_v we_o now_o infer_v from_o hence_o that_o the_o power_n of_o the_o lord_n jesus_n be_v only_o by_o way_n of_o counsel_n and_o advise_v and_o that_o his_o power_n can_v amount_v to_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o command_n i_o suppose_v we_o will_v be_v afraid_a and_o abhor_v to_o deduce_v such_o a_o consequence_n and_o therefore_o though_o a_o synod_n may_v advise_v yet_o their_o power_n to_o command_v which_o be_v more_o than_o mere_a counsel_n and_o advise_v be_v not_o from_o thence_o conclude_v to_o be_v null_a and_o so_o much_o for_o master_n rutherford_n his_o second_o place_n wherein_o he_o deal_v against_o the_o answer_n chap._n iii_o of_o the_o assembly_n act._n 15._o whether_o they_o do_v exercise_v any_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n against_o the_o obtruder_n of_o circumcision_n and_o whether_o their_o rebuke_v of_o they_o do_v argue_v the_o affirmative_a in_o his_o page_n 388._o he_o lay_v down_o this_o as_o a_o 2d._o object_n viz._n that_o there_o be_v no_o censure_v of_o person_n for_o scandal_n and_o that_o meeting_n act_n 15._o because_o there_o be_v nothing_o there_o but_o a_o doctrinal_a declaration_n of_o the_o falsehood_n of_o their_o opinion_n who_o teach_v the_o necessity_n of_o circumcision_n and_o that_o all_o be_v do_v by_o way_n of_o doctrine_n and_o by_o power_n of_o the_o key_n of_o knowledge_n not_o of_o jurisdiction_n be_v clear_a from_o the_o end_n of_o the_o meeting_n which_o be_v verse_n 2_o &_o 6._o to_o consider_v of_o that_o question_n consideration_n of_o question_n be_v the_o end_n of_o the_o synod_n be_v a_o thing_n belong_v to_o doctrinal_a power_n mere_o and_o then_o he_o subjoin_v my_o name_n and_o in_o the_o margin_n allege_v the_o answer_n chap._n 1._o page_n 8._o ans_fw-fr whereto_o i_o first_o of_o all_o return_n this_o answer_n first_o that_o the_o thing_n here_o in_o question_n be_v about_o the_o power_n of_o that_o meeting_n act_v 15._o there_o be_v nothing_o in_o the_o place_n allege_v by_o master_n rutherford_n that_o can_v warrant_v he_o to_o frame_v such_o a_o objection_n under_o master_n tompsons_n name_n and_o i_o as_o proceed_v from_o we_o and_o the_o reason_n be_v because_o that_o meeting_n act_v 15_o be_v not_o mention_v at_o all_o in_o the_o place_n by_o he_o allege_v neither_o for_o that_o purpose_n which_o he_o set_v down_o nor_o for_o any_o other_o much_o loss_n be_v the_o objection_n we_o in_o terminis_fw-la now_o to_o frame_v a_o objection_n and_o to_o allege_v chapter_n and_o page_n for_o proof_n that_o the_o objection_n be_v we_o when_o as_o neither_o page_n nor_o chapter_n aleadge_v do_v speak_v any_o thing_n at_o all_o of_o that_o matter_n what_o reason_n can_v be_v give_v for_o this_o i_o know_v not_o nevertheless_o because_o the_o matter_n contain_v in_o the_o objection_n do_v not_o much_o differ_v from_o my_o apprehension_n and_o judgement_n and_o something_o in_o the_o answer_n elsewhere_o may_v possible_o intimate_v such_o a_o thing_n though_o but_o brief_o touch_v i_o will_v therefore_o consider_v of_o what_o he_o say_v for_o remove_v the_o objection_n as_o himself_o have_v propound_v the_o same_o it_o be_v false_a say_v he_o that_o there_o be_v no_o censure_v of_o person_n here_o for_o it_o be_v more_o than_o evident_a that_o the_o public_a synodical_a censure_n of_o rebuke_n be_v put_v upon_o those_o who_o hold_v and_o urge_v the_o necessity_n of_o circumcision_n and_o why_o not_o excommunication_n also_o in_o case_n of_o obstinacy_n for_o the_o synodical_a censure_n of_o a_o public_a synodical_a rebuke_n be_v only_o gradual_o different_a not_o specifical_o from_o excommunication_n &_o both_o must_v proceed_v from_o ouâ—_n &_o the_o same_o power_n so_o then_o the_o sum_n be_v the_o synod_n have_v power_n of_o rebuke_v and_o therefore_o of_o excommunication_n also_o answ_n the_o consequence_n be_v not_o clear_a for_o who_o know_v not_o that_o there_o may_v be_v power_n to_o rebuke_v where_o there_o be_v no_o power_n of_o excommunication_n be_v it_o not_o the_o express_a law_n of_o god_n that_o every_o man_n shall_v plain_o rebuke_v his_o neighbour_n and_o not_o suffer_v sin_n upon_o he_o levit._n 19_o 17_o and_o be_v not_o our_o 〈◊〉_d word_n as_o plain_a if_o thy_o brother_n trespasle_n against_o thou_o rebuke_v he_o and_o if_o he_o repent_v forgive_v he_o luke_n 17._o 3_o whereby_o it_o be_v evident_a that_o one_o particular_a person_n have_v power_n by_o the_o law_n of_o god_n and_o christ_n to_o put_v a_o rebuke_n upon_o another_o if_o there_o be_v occasion_n for_o it_o but_o will_v it_o follow_v hereupon_o that_o one_o particular_a christian_a have_v power_n to_o excommunicate_v another_o in_o case_n of_o obstinacy_n i_o suppose_v master_n rutherford_n will_v not_o say_v so_o and_o yet_o unless_o this_o be_v say_v i_o know_v not_o how_o his_o consequence_n can_v be_v make_v good_a that_o if_o a_o synod_n may_v rebuke_v they_o may_v excommunicate_v also_o i_o know_v indeed_o he_o say_v the_o synodical_a rebuke_n be_v only_o gradual_o different_a from_o excommunication_n and_o not_o specifical_o and_o that_o both_o must_v proceed_v from_o one_o and_o the_o same_o power_n but_o this_o will_v require_v some_o proof_n and_o shall_v not_o naked_o be_v affirm_v without_o any_o proof_n at_o all_o for_o of_o itself_o it_o be_v not_o evident_a that_o where_o â—ver_o there_o be_v power_n to_o rebuke_v there_o be_v power_n of_o excommunication_n also_o the_o contrary_n i_o suppose_v be_v evident_a from_o that_o which_o have_v already_o be_v say_v from_o levit._n 19_o 17._o and_o luke_n 17._o 3._o and_o from_o many_o other_o scripture_n and_o reason_n which_o show_v that_o one_o man_n alone_o have_v power_n to_o rebuke_v who_o can_v for_o that_o be_v conclude_v to_o have_v any_o power_n of_o excommunication_n i_o know_v the_o learned_a mâ—n_z be_v copious_a in_o prove_v from_o the_o word_n of_o verse_n 24._o certain_a man_n go_v from_o we_o and_o have_v trouble_v you_o with_o word_n subvert_v your_o soul_n etc._n etc._n that_o this_o assembly_n do_v not_o only_o in_o a_o doctrinal_a way_n confute_v the_o false_a opinion_n and_o doctrine_n of_o these_o teacher_n of_o
against_o the_o answer_n it_o in_o his_o pag._n 410._o where_o he_o propose_v a_o object_n to_o this_o effect_n to_o wit_n paul_n exercise_v the_o key_n of_o knowledge_n upon_o barbarian_n and_o may_v have_v preach_v to_o indian_n and_o do_v to_o scoff_a athenian_n yea_o paul_n by_o this_o power_n dogmatic_a rebuke_v the_o athenian_n act._n 17._o 22._o yet_o paul_n have_v no_o power_n to_o excommunicate_v the_o athenian_n and_o then_o he_o subjoin_v my_o name_n and_o cite_v in_o the_o margin_n the_o 43_o and_o 44_o page_n of_o the_o answer_n answ_n this_o objection_n be_v take_v from_o paul_n rebuke_v the_o athenian_n our_o brother_n have_v no_o reason_n to_o propose_v it_o under_o mr._n tompsons_n 〈◊〉_d and_o i_o for_o as_o much_o as_o in_o all_o that_o discourse_n of_o we_o the_o athenian_n to_o my_o remembrance_n be_v not_o so_o much_o as_o once_o mention_v sure_o in_o the_o page_n by_o he_o allege_v there_o be_v no_o mention_n of_o the_o athenian_n at_o all_o and_o therefore_o why_o this_o objection_n shall_v be_v propose_v and_o report_v by_o he_o as_o we_o we_o do_v not_o know_v which_o i_o do_v not_o say_v 〈◊〉_d though_o i_o think_v the_o objection_n so_o weak_a as_o though_o the_o author_n of_o it_o may_v not_o well_o own_v it_o for_o from_o whosoever_o the_o objection_n come_v for_o aught_o that_o i_o yet_o perceive_v there_o be_v good_a weight_n therein_o for_o which_o cause_n and_o because_o in_o one_o of_o those_o page_n we_o have_v deliver_v something_o concern_v a_o minister_n power_n to_o preach_v to_o pagan_n in_o general_a though_o nothing_o concern_v the_o athenians_n in_o particular_a as_o he_o report_v therefore_o i_o be_o willing_a to_o consider_v what_o mr._n rutherforâ—_n say_v for_o the_o satisfy_n of_o the_o objection_n propose_v as_o not_o willing_a to_o pass_v by_o any_o thing_n without_o consideration_n wherein_o ourselves_o may_v seem_v to_o be_v concern_v or_o aim_v at_o i_o deny_v not_o say_v he_o but_o there_o be_v a_o great_a odds_n betwixt_o a_o concionall_a rebuke_v by_o way_n of_o preach_v which_o may_v be_v and_o be_v always_o perform_v by_o one_o and_o a_o juridical_a rebuke_v by_o a_o power_n jurididicall_a of_o the_o key_n which_o be_v perform_v only_o by_o a_o church_n society_n answ_n if_o all_o this_o be_v grant_v you_o the_o objection_n be_v not_o satisfy_v nor_o his_o purpose_n gain_v thereby_o for_o the_o clear_n whereof_o it_o be_v good_a to_o consider_v the_o thing_n in_o question_n and_o how_o this_o objection_n come_v in_o and_o whereto_o it_o tend_v and_o then_o we_o may_v better_o discern_v how_o the_o objection_n be_v remove_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n answer_v the_o thing_n in_o question_n be_v whether_o a_o synod_n have_v power_n of_o jurisidiction_n and_o excommunication_n mr._n rutherford_n his_o scope_n in_o that_o place_n be_v to_o prove_v the_o affirmative_a and_o therefore_o for_o a_o dozen_o or_o 14_o page_n together_o he_o have_v these_o word_n in_o the_o top_n of_o every_o lease_n the_o power_n of_o a_o synod_n a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o his_o medium_n to_o prove_v this_o tenent_n be_v this_o because_o a_o synod_n have_v power_n to_o rebuke_v whereupon_o ensue_v the_o objection_n that_o paul_n may_v rebuke_v the_o athenian_n and_o yet_o may_v not_o excommunicate_v they_o and_o therefore_o enough_o a_o synod_n may_v rebuke_v it_o follow_v not_o that_o they_o may_v excommunicate_v this_o be_v the_o order_n of_o the_o dispute_n as_o be_v plain_o to_o be_v seem_v by_o pâ—â—â—sing_v the_o place_n and_o now_o come_v in_o the_o answer_n which_o mr._n rutherford_n give_v to_o the_o objection_n to_o wit_n that_o there_o be_v a_o great_a odds_o betwixt_o a_o concionall_a rebuke_v and_o a_o juridical_a the_o one_o be_v perform_v by_o one_o and_o the_o other_o by_o many_o which_o answer_v i_o conceive_v be_v not_o sufficient_a because_o this_o difference_n may_v he_o grant_v and_o many_o more_o may_v be_v add_v if_o he_o please_v and_o yet_o the_o thing_n in_o question_n not_o gain_v nor_o the_o objection_n remove_v at_o all_o for_o what_o though_o a_o concionall_a rebuke_v be_v perform_v by_o one_o and_o a_o juridical_a by_o many_o yet_o still_o it_o remain_v clear_a that_o there_o may_v be_v rebuke_v where_o there_o be_v no_o jurisdiction_n and_o therefore_o though_o a_o synod_n may_v rebuke_v it_o follow_v not_o that_o they_o may_v excommunicate_v nor_o have_v power_n of_o jurisdiction_n if_o our_o brother_n will_v have_v satisfy_v the_o objection_n he_o shall_v not_o have_v satisfy_v himself_o with_o allege_v the_o difference_n mention_v between_o a_o concionall_a rebuke_v and_o a_o juridical_a or_o synodical_a but_o shall_v have_v prove_v that_o there_o can_v be_v any_o concionall_a rebuke_v at_o all_o at_o least_o wise_a not_o any_o rebuke_v of_o athenian_n who_o be_v not_o subject_a to_o excommunication_n and_o if_o this_o have_v be_v prove_v the_o objection_n have_v be_v full_o remove_v but_o this_o he_o have_v not_o prove_v at_o all_o nor_o once_o attempt_v to_o prove_v it_o but_o plain_o yield_v the_o contrary_a and_o therefore_o for_o aught_o i_o see_v the_o objection_n remain_v in_o its_o strength_n and_o so_o the_o strength_n of_o his_o argument_n remove_v thereby_o who_o will_v prove_v the_o synod_n power_n of_o jurisdiction_n from_o their_o power_n of_o rebuke_v but_o let_v as_o hear_v what_o he_o answer_v in_o the_o word_n ensue_v it_o can_v be_v deny_v say_v he_o but_o the_o rebuke_v of_o man_n because_o they_o subvert_v soul_n verse_n 24._o be_v not_o a_o mere_a concionall_a rebuke_v which_o may_v be_v perform_v by_o one_o first_o it_o be_v a_o rebuke_v verse_n 24._o second_o it_o be_v a_o rebuke_v perform_v by_o many_o by_o a_o whole_a synod_n 6._o 22._o three_o it_o be_v perform_v by_o a_o political_a society_n answ_n and_o what_o of_o all_o this_o may_v it_o not_o nevertheless_o be_v deny_v that_o this_o rebuke_v be_v any_o other_o then_o in_o a_o doctrinal_a way_n be_v it_o grant_v that_o it_o be_v a_o rebuke_v and_o a_o rebuke_v perform_v by_o many_o and_o if_o be_v grant_v by_o a_o political_a society_n too_o must_v it_o need_v follow_v that_o therefore_o it_o be_v juridical_a or_o in_o way_n of_o jurisdiction_n i_o see_v no_o necessity_n of_o such_o consequence_n nay_o master_n rutherford_n himself_o do_v confess_v as_o we_o hear_v afore_o in_o his_o page_n 393._o that_o the_o specification_n of_o this_o rebuke_n must_v not_o be_v fetch_v from_o the_o efficient_a cause_n because_o one_o apostle_n might_n himself_o alone_o have_v rebuke_v these_o obtruder_n of_o circumcision_n if_o therefore_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o many_o person_n a_o whole_a synod_n a_o political_a society_n or_o what_o ever_o else_o he_o will_v call_v they_o be_v the_o efficient_a cause_n of_o this_o rebuke_n yet_o all_o this_o be_v too_o little_a to_o prove_v that_o the_o rebuke_n be_v juridical_a unless_o the_o specification_n of_o it_o must_v be_v fetch_v from_o the_o efficient_a cause_n which_o master_n rutherford_n himself_o disclayme_v moreover_o i_o will_v put_v this_o case_n suppose_v a_o pagan_a or_o a_o christian_a of_o another_o nation_n and_o kingdom_n shall_v come_v into_o a_o church_n assembly_n whether_o the_o assembly_n be_v a_o congregationall_a church_n or_o a_o synod_n and_o in_o the_o assembly_n shall_v open_o and_o scandalous_o misbehave_v himself_o in_o one_o kind_n or_o other_o to_o the_o dishonour_n of_o god_n and_o grieve_v of_o the_o godly_a and_o the_o danger_n of_o corrupt_v other_o that_o shall_v behold_v such_o bad_a example_n i_o will_v glad_o know_v whether_o this_o assembly_n be_v it_o synod_n or_o other_o may_v not_o lawful_o rebuke_v this_o scandalous_a practice_n and_o behaviour_n and_o if_o they_o may_v whether_o it_o will_v follow_v thereupon_o that_o they_o may_v also_o lawful_o excommunicate_v the_o man_n if_o his_o sin_n and_o impenitency_n shall_v deserve_v the_o same_o if_o it_o be_v say_v they_o may_v i_o will_v know_v quo_fw-la jure_fw-la and_o who_o give_v they_o such_o authority_n to_o excommunicate_a pagan_n or_o man_n of_o another_o nation_n be_v only_o there_o present_a at_o that_o time_n occasional_o and_o if_o they_o may_v not_o so_o proceed_v against_o such_o a_o person_n than_o the_o answer_n to_o master_n rutherford_n alledgement_n in_o the_o case_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n be_v ready_a and_o plain_a for_o as_o he_o allege_v first_o here_o be_v a_o rebuke_v second_o a_o rebuke_v of_o many_o even_o a_o whole_a synod_n three_o of_o a_o political_a society_n and_o body_n even_o so_o the_o same_o may_v be_v say_v in_o this_o case_n in_o all_o the_o particular_n for_o first_o here_o be_v a_o rebuke_v second_o rebuke_v of_o many_o three_o by_o a_o political_a society_n and_o body_n and_o yet_o all_o this_o be_v too_o little_a to_o prove_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o
answer_n be_v whole_o take_v up_o and_o spend_v in_o two_o other_o thing_n the_o objection_n which_o he_o propose_v as_o we_o be_v whole_o leave_v untouched_a those_o two_o thing_n be_v these_o the_o one_o a_o answer_n to_o another_o passage_n of_o we_o in_o another_o place_n of_o the_o answer_n the_o other_o a_o answer_n to_o the_o last_o part_n of_o his_o objection_n which_o himself_o do_v acknowledge_v to_o be_v the_o say_n of_o other_o and_o not_o we_o and_o therefore_o he_o bring_v it_o in_o thus_o viz._n other_o say_v because_o there_o be_v a_o representative_a worship_n etc._n etc._n by_o those_o word_n other_o say_v plain_o declare_v that_o what_o he_o thus_o express_v proceed_v not_o from_o we_o but_o from_o other_o and_o so_o though_o he_o return_v answer_v to_o this_o say_n of_o other_o and_o to_o another_o say_n of_o we_o which_o we_o have_v write_v elsewhore_n yet_o for_o this_o of_o we_o which_o he_o propose_v in_o this_o hâ—s_n objection_n i_o find_v no_o answer_n thereto_o at_o all_o and_o therefore_o i_o think_v the_o thing_n remain_v as_o it_o be_v unless_o we_o shall_v take_v his_o mere_a propose_v of_o it_o for_o a_o satisfy_a answer_n which_o we_o see_v no_o reason_n to_o do_v nevertheless_o though_o he_o turn_v away_o from_o this_o passage_n of_o we_o without_o return_v any_o answer_n thereto_o yet_o there_o be_v another_o which_o he_o apply_v himself_o more_o direct_o against_o and_o therefore_o to_o this_o sixteen_o objection_n he_o beg_v his_o answer_n thus_o sure_o the_o aforesaid_a reverend_a brethren_n of_o new-england_n have_v these_o word_n but_o it_o seem_v to_o we_o the_o power_n of_o a_o synod_n be_v not_o proper_o a_o power_n and_o exercise_v of_o government_n and_o jurisdiction_n but_o a_o power_n of_o doctrine_n and_o so_o a_o synod_n be_v rather_o a_o teach_v then_o a_o govern_v church_n from_o whence_o say_v he_o i_o infer_v that_o our_o brethren_n can_v deny_v a_o power_n of_o govern_v to_o a_o synod_n but_o it_o be_v not_o so_o proper_a govern_n as_o excommunication_n and_o ordination_n perform_v in_o their_o congregation_n but_o say_v i_o it_o be_v more_o proper_o govern_v as_o to_o make_v law_n and_o rule_n of_o govern_v be_v a_o more_o noble_a eminent_a and_o high_a act_n of_o govern_v as_o be_v evident_a in_o the_o king_n and_o his_o parliament_n than_o the_o execution_n of_o â—hese_n law_n and_o rule_n answ_n so_o then_o thâ—se_a former_a word_n of_o we_o propose_v in_o the_o objection_n be_v whole_o forsake_v and_o leave_v and_o instead_o of_o answer_v they_o he_o fall_v as_o we_o set_v upon_o other_o word_n which_o we_o have_v write_v elsewhere_o and_o apply_v himself_o to_o deal_v against_o those_o other_o by_o which_o deal_v the_o considerate_a reader_n may_v judge_v whether_o the_o former_a word_n be_v thus_o handsome_o forsake_v and_o leave_v do_v not_o still_o remain_v in_o their_o strength_n and_o whether_o it_o have_v not_o be_v as_o good_a never_o to_o have_v propose_v they_o at_o all_o in_o his_o objection_n as_o have_v propose_v they_o to_o turn_v away_o direct_o and_o immediate_o from_o they_o unto_o other_o matter_n without_o return_v one_o word_n of_o answer_n to_o the_o former_a the_o wise_a in_o heart_n may_v consider_v what_o this_o do_v import_n but_o such_o he_o be_v please_v to_o acquit_v the_o former_a and_o to_o apply_v himself_o to_o the_o other_o let_v we_o therefore_o leave_v the_o former_a in_o its_o strength_n and_o unshaken_a and_o consider_v of_o what_o he_o say_v in_o this_o other_o wherein_o when_o he_o speak_v of_o make_v law_n and_o rule_n of_o govern_v either_o he_o meâ—nes_n this_o make_v law_n and_o rule_n proper_o so_o call_v or_o else_o he_o mean_v it_o only_o of_o a_o ministerial_a power_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o law_n and_o rule_n of_o christ_n and_o in_o his_o name_n to_o command_v obedience_n thereto_o and_o it_o seem_v by_o the_o instance_n which_o he_o give_v of_o the_o king_n and_o his_o parliament_n that_o he_o intend_v the_o former_a sense_n and_o if_o so_o than_o the_o answer_n be_v that_o this_o noble_a eminent_n and_o high_a act_n of_o govern_v as_o he_o call_v it_o do_v not_o belong_v to_o any_o synod_n upon_o earth_n but_o only_o to_o the_o lord_n jesus_n christ_n in_o heaven_n the_o scripture_n abundant_o witness_v that_o he_o only_o be_v the_o lord_n and_o law_n giver_n to_o his_o church_n lâ—â—_n 4._o 12._o isa_n 33._o 22._o for_o the_o clear_n of_o which_o point_n much_o need_v not_o to_o be_v say_v consider_v that_o this_o learned_a brother_n himself_o do_v elsewhere_o direct_o and_o in_o express_a term_n coâ—fesse_v as_o much_o as_o we_o desire_v in_o this_o matter_n for_o in_o one_o place_n speak_v in_o one_o place_n of_o a_o power_n to_o prescribe_v rule_n and_o law_n he_o do_v not_o only_o distinguish_v they_o from_o law_n proper_o so_o call_v by_o the_o word_n directive_n call_v they_o directive_n law_n but_o also_o for_o further_o explain_v his_o mind_n annex_v these_o word_n they_o be_v not_o proper_o law_n which_o the_o church_n prescribe_v christ_n be_v the_o only_a lawgiver_n due_a right_n page_n 395._o and_o in_o the_o page_n follow_v speak_v of_o a_o society_n or_o a_o synod_n power_n of_o make_v law_n he_o add_v for_o explanation_n thus_o i_o take_v not_o here_o law_n for_o law_n proper_o so_o call_v but_o for_o ministerial_a directory_n have_v ecclesiastical_a authority_n so_o then_o the_o church_n or_o the_o synod_n have_v no_o power_n at_o all_o to_o make_v law_n proper_o so_o call_v for_o christ_n â—s_v the_o only_a law_n giver_n and_o if_o so_o than_o the_o govern_v power_n of_o synod_n which_o our_o brother_n will_v prove_v by_o this_o noble_a and_o eminent_a and_o high_a power_n of_o make_v law_n be_v not_o prove_v thereby_o at_o all_o in_o as_o much_o as_o this_o noble_a and_o eminent_a power_n of_o make_v law_n do_v not_o belong_v to_o any_o synod_n upon_o earth_n but_o to_o christ_n only_o and_o this_o may_v be_v a_o answer_n to_o what_o he_o say_v or_o a_o synod_n power_n to_o make_v law_n it_o law_n be_v take_v in_o their_o proper_a sense_n but_o if_o he_o intend_v not_o this_o sense_n and_o meaning_n in_o the_o place_n we_o be_v speak_v of_o but_o only_o the_o latter_a viz_o that_o synod_n have_v power_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o law_n and_o rule_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o command_v obedience_n thereto_o than_o i_o confess_v the_o answer_n in_o the_o 7_o the_o page_n thereof_o do_v acknowledge_v such_o power_n to_o belong_v unto_o synod_n but_o how_o this_o can_v prove_v their_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o government_n proper_o so_o call_v which_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v thence_o infer_v we_o for_o our_o part_n do_v not_o yet_o perceive_v for_o the_o power_n here_o describe_v be_v but_o a_o mere_a doctrinal_a power_n and_o we_o have_v give_v sundry_a instance_n in_o the_o answer_n pag._n 43._o 44._o to_o show_v that_o there_o may_v be_v a_o power_n by_o way_n of_o doctrine_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o rule_n and_o law_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o command_v obedience_n thereto_o where_o yet_o there_o be_v no_o power_n by_o way_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o discipline_n to_o punish_v the_o breach_n of_o those_o rule_n which_o instance_n this_o reverend_a brother_n do_v not_o satisfy_v at_o all_o and_o therefore_o though_o synod_n have_v power_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o rule_n and_o law_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o command_v obedience_n thereto_o which_o power_n we_o deny_v they_o not_o yet_o that_o which_o he_o from_o thence_o will_v infer_v that_o they_o have_v also_o a_o power_n of_o government_n and_o jurisdiction_n do_v not_o follow_v from_o thence_o at_o all_o unless_o we_o shall_v say_v that_o doctrine_n and_o discipline_n doctrine_n and_o jurisdiction_n or_o government_n be_v the_o same_o brief_o thus_o a_o power_n of_o make_v law_n proper_o so_o call_v be_v a_o noble_a and_o eminent_a kind_n of_o government_n but_o this_o power_n do_v not_o belong_v unto_o synod_n but_o to_o christ_n a_o power_n of_o clear_n up_o christ_n law_n and_o command_v in_o his_o name_n obedience_n thereunto_o do_v belong_v unto_o synod_n but_o this_o be_v no_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o government_n but_o a_o ministerial_a power_n of_o doctrine_n and_o so_o still_o our_o tenent_n do_v stand_v that_o a_o synod_n if_o it_o may_v be_v call_v a_o church_n be_v rather_o a_o teach_n then_o a_o govern_v church_n second_o say_v our_o author_n our_o brethren_n incline_v to_o make_v a_o synod_n a_o teach_a church_n answ_n we_o never_o yet_o absolute_o yield_v that_o a_o synod_n may_v be_v call_v a_o church_n 〈◊〉_d on_o the_o contrary_a we_o have_v say_v that_o unless_o it_o can_v be_v prove_v that_o in_o scripture_n the_o name_n of_o a_o church_n be_v give_v to_o a_o
that_o other_o church_n in_o such_o ease_n may_v take_v away_o the_o power_n from_o such_o a_o church_n for_o aught_o i_o see_v this_o will_v not_o follow_v at_o all_o no_o more_o than_o the_o other_o for_o though_o christ_n have_v not_o give_v to_o any_o church_n a_o power_n of_o male_a administration_n as_o mr._n rutherford_n speak_v yet_o have_v he_o give_v to_o every_o church_n a_o power_n of_o administration_n which_o if_o they_o manage_v not_o aright_o but_o do_v abuse_v the_o same_o the_o lord_n jesus_n will_v be_v displease_v with_o they_o for_o this_o abuse_n and_o other_o church_n may_v and_o aught_o to_o advise_v they_o and_o admonish_v they_o and_o testify_v against_o they_o for_o the_o same_o but_o for_o the_o power_n itself_o as_o christ_n himself_o do_v not_o forthwith_o deprive_v they_o thereof_o so_o much_o less_o may_v other_o church_n take_v it_o from_o they_o for_o who_o give_v they_o this_o authority_n per_fw-la in_o parem_fw-la non_fw-la habet_fw-la potestatem_fw-la and_o church_n be_v all_o of_o equal_a authority_n and_o not_o one_o superior_a or_o inferior_a to_o another_o as_o therefore_o when_o child_n or_o servant_n in_o a_o family_n be_v not_o govern_v as_o they_o ought_v to_o be_v yet_o neighbour_n family_n have_v not_o warrant_v because_o of_o this_o male_a administration_n to_o invade_v the_o right_n and_o destroy_v the_o power_n of_o such_o a_o family_n even_o so_o it_o be_v in_o this_o case_n of_o church_n this_o maladministration_n in_o a_o church_n be_v not_o forthwith_o a_o sufficient_a warrant_n for_o neighbour_n church_n to_o invade_v the_o right_n of_o such_o a_o church_n and_o to_o take_v away_o its_o power_n from_o it_o especial_o if_o we_o do_v consider_v that_o this_o maladministration_n in_o a_o congregation_n may_v possible_o be_v but_o pretend_v and_o not_o real_a and_o that_o the_o administration_n of_o the_o class_n may_v paradventure_o be_v real_o such_o in_o which_o case_n mr._n rutherford_n say_v the_o power_n of_o the_o classis_fw-la be_v not_o of_o christ_n but_o their_o voice_n ought_v the_o jure_v to_o be_v swallow_v up_o by_o the_o congregation_n and_o the_o elder_n thereof_o this_o argument_n therefore_o from_o maladministration_n of_o the_o power_n of_o a_o congregation_n which_o mr_n rutherford_n say_v it_o be_v reason_n shall_v be_v destroy_v by_o another_o power_n add_v to_o it_o mean_v the_o power_n of_o a_o classis_fw-la be_v of_o no_o sufficient_a force_n to_o take_v away_o the_o power_n of_o a_o congregation_n at_o all_o not_o to_o establish_v the_o power_n of_o the_o classis_fw-la over_o the_o same_o be_v as_o just_o applyable_a against_o the_o classis_fw-la itself_o therefore_o for_o aught_o that_o do_v yet_o appear_v supreme_a ministerial_a church_n power_n which_o i_o conceive_v must_v needs_o be_v somewhere_o may_v as_o well_o be_v in_o the_o congregation_n as_o in_o the_o classis_fw-la and_o can_v neither_o by_o this_o argument_n of_o maladministration_n nor_o by_o any_o other_o that_o we_o have_v yet_o see_v be_v place_v in_o the_o classis_fw-la any_o more_fw-it then_o in_o the_o congregation_n chap._n xii_o whether_o it_o be_v against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o the_o adverse_a party_n be_v judge_n and_o whether_o mr._n rutherford_n can_v safe_o say_v that_o none_o of_o they_o do_v so_o teach_v and_o whether_o this_o say_n that_o party_n may_v not_o be_v judge_n do_v make_v against_o entireness_n of_o power_n in_o a_o congation_n any_o more_o than_o in_o a_o general_a or_o national_n council_n the_o next_o place_n where_o mr._n rutherford_n deal_v with_o the_o answer_n be_v in_o his_o p._n 456._o where_o allege_v mr._n tompson_n and_o i_o page_z 5._o he_o have_v these_o word_n as_o we_o viz._n if_o it_o be_v against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o the_o adverse_a party_n be_v the_o sole_a judge_n which_o must_v be_v if_o the_o sole_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v in_o the_o congregation_n as_o we_o grant_v in_o a_o extraordinary_a case_n and_o the_o congregation_n be_v in_o a_o island_n itself_o alone_o and_o so_o it_o shall_v be_v lawful_a for_o a_o single_a congregation_n to_o do_v that_o which_o be_v against_o all_o equity_n and_o the_o very_a light_n of_o nature_n it_o must_v then_o follow_v that_o it_o be_v not_o against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o a_o congregation_n though_o consociate_v with_o other_o congregation_n have_v entire_a jurisdiction_n within_o itself_o answ_n our_o word_n in_o the_o page_n allege_v be_v more_o prospicuous_a and_o clear_a than_o these_o which_o be_v here_o set_v down_o for_o we_o neither_o do_v we_o make_v any_o mention_n of_o a_o congregation_n in_o a_o island_n nor_o yet_o of_o a_o congregation_n consociate_v with_o other_o church_n lest_o of_o all_o do_v we_o say_v or_o report_v other_o to_o say_v that_o it_o be_v lawful_a for_o a_o single_a congregation_n to_o do_v that_o which_o be_v against_o all_o equity_n and_o the_o very_a light_n of_o nature_n none_o of_o these_o thing_n be_v we_o and_o therefore_o that_o our_o true_a meaning_n may_v plain_o appear_v as_o it_o be_v i_o will_v transcribe_v a_o few_o of_o our_o word_n which_o be_v these_o viz._n sure_a we_o can_v think_v that_o there_o can_v be_v such_o a_o case_n imagine_v wherein_o you_o will_v grant_v it_o lawful_a for_o a_o single_a congregation_n to_o do_v that_o which_o be_v against_o all_o equity_n and_o the_o very_a light_n of_o nature_n and_o yet_o you_o grant_v that_o the_o case_n may_v be_v such_o that_o a_o single_a congregation_n may_v have_v entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n within_o itself_o which_o seem_v to_o we_o plain_o to_o prove_v that_o for_o a_o congregation_n to_o be_v so_o independent_a as_o to_o be_v the_o final_a judge_n of_o offence_n within_o itself_o be_v not_o against_o all_o equity_n nor_o against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n as_o be_v intimate_v by_o you_o these_o be_v our_o word_n much_o differ_v from_o those_o which_o mr._n rutherford_n set_v down_o as_o we_o which_o i_o think_v meet_v to_o relate_v out_o of_o the_o answer_n that_o our_o meaning_n may_v appear_v as_o it_o be_v and_o no_o otherwise_o and_o now_o let_v we_o hear_v what_o our_o brother_n subjoin_v for_o answer_v none_o of_o we_o say_v he_o do_v teach_v that_o it_o be_v against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o the_o adverse_a party_n be_v the_o judge_n it_o may_v fall_v out_o in_o a_o general_a council_n lawful_o convene_v from_o which_o their_o be_v no_o provocation_n yea_o and_o in_o a_o national_n council_n for_o all_o counsel_n may_v err_v the_o adverse_a party_n may_v judge_v as_o it_o be_v a_o lawful_a council_n according_a to_o a_o church_n constitution_n that_o condemn_v christ_n of_o blasphemy_n and_o they_o be_v also_o his_o enemy_n answ_n and_o may_v it_o not_o also_o fall_v out_o in_o a_o provincial_a synod_n and_o in_o a_o classis_fw-la or_o presbtytery_n of_o many_o church_n i_o suppose_v it_o can_v be_v deny_v but_o the_o judge_n in_o all_o these_o may_v be_v the_o adverse_a party_n and_o so_o if_o the_o adverse_a party_n may_v not_o be_v judge_n than_o neither_o general_n nor_o national_n counsel_n nor_o provincial_n synod_n nor_o class_n nor_o presbytery_n may_v be_v judge_n because_o there_o be_v none_o of_o these_o but_o possible_o they_o may_v be_v party_n and_o so_o this_o argument_n party_n may_v not_o be_v judge_n do_v make_v no_o more_o against_o the_o congregation_n power_n of_o judge_v then_o against_o all_o ecclesiastical_a assembly_n whatsoever_o unless_o therefore_o man_n will_v overthrow_v the_o power_n of_o all_o ecclesiastical_a judicatories_n whatsoever_o without_o exception_n of_o any_o they_o can_v have_v no_o help_n from_o this_o argument_n to_o overthrow_v the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o congregation_n not_o to_o insist_v upon_o that_o which_o may_v also_o be_v true_o allege_v that_o the_o objection_n have_v the_o like_a force_n if_o any_o at_o all_o against_o civil_a judicatories_n but_o be_v it_o so_o indeed_o as_o our_o brother_n affirm_v that_o none_o of_o they_o do_v teach_v that_o it_o be_v against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o the_o adverse_a party_n be_v the_o judge_n i_o think_v he_o shall_v not_o thus_o have_v speak_v for_o i_o be_o much_o mistake_v if_o the_o contrary_a hereunto_o be_v not_o certain_o true_a for_o first_o of_o all_o i_o allege_v the_o word_n of_o reverend_a mr_n herle_n in_o his_o book_n of_o independency_n page_n 5._o allege_v in_o the_o answer_n page_n 6_o the_o very_a pag._n which_o here_o mr_n rutherford_n be_v deal_v against_o in_o which_o place_n of_o mr._n herle_v there_o be_v these_o word_n viz._n that_o there_o ought_v to_o be_v gradual_a judicatories_n wherein_o the_o aggrieved_a party_n may_v appeal_v from_o the_o lesser_a to_o the_o high_a that_o against_o the_o very_a light_n of_o nature_n the_o adverse_a party_n be_v not_o the_o sole_a
mr._n tompsons_n name_n and_o i_o and_o chap._n 1._o page_n 9_o of_o the_o answer_n he_o say_v we_o there_o teach_v that_o there_o be_v a_o power_n of_o clear_n truth_n dogmatical_o &_o that_o ultimate_o where_o the_o controversy_n be_v end_v but_o he_o say_v we_o will_v have_v this_o vltimate_a power_n not_o in_o a_o synod_n only_o but_o also_o in_o a_o congregation_n and_o then_o no_o answer_v three_o thing_n which_o there_o ensue_v answ_n our_o word_n be_v these_o by_o power_n of_o decree_n we_o understand_v power_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n dogmatical_o for_o the_o word_n translate_v decree_n be_v dogmata_fw-la in_o the_o original_a act._n 16._o 4._o and_o this_o power_n we_o confess_v be_v in_o a_o synod_n though_o not_o all_o in_o a_o synod_n alone_o but_o also_o in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o single_a congregation_n now_o these_o bring_v our_o word_n if_o therefore_o this_o reverend_a brother_n will_v overthrow_v our_o tenent_n in_o this_o particular_a he_o shall_v have_v prove_v that_o there_o be_v not_o any_o power_n as_o all_o in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o single_a congregation_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n dogmatical_o this_o indeed_o have_v be_v direct_o contrary_a to_o what_o we_o teach_v but_o this_o be_v neither_o prove_v nor_o once_o attempt_v to_o prove_v and_o therefore_o our_o tenent_n herein_o do_v yet_o stand_v good_a for_o any_o thing_n he_o have_v say_v to_o the_o contrary_n and_o no_o marvel_n siâ—h_v the_o express_a word_n of_o the_o text_n do_v witness_v that_o every_o bishop_n have_v power_n and_o be_v boand_v by_o his_o office_n and_o duty_n by_o sound_a doctrine_n both_o to_o exhort_v and_o convince_v gainsayet_n tit._n 1._o 9_o and_o according_o the_o presbytery_n of_o antioch_n do_v labour_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o truth_n in_o that_o controversy_n about_o circumcision_n and_o have_v much_o disputation_n about_o it_o among_o themselves_o afore_o there_o be_v any_o speech_n of_o send_v to_o jerusalem_n for_o help_v act._n 15._o 2._o which_o show_v that_o they_o have_v power_n or_o right_a to_o have_v clear_v the_o matter_n among_o themselves_o if_o ability_n have_v serve_v or_o else_o this_o endeavour_n have_v be_v sinful_a as_o be_v a_o attempt_v to_o do_v that_o whereto_o they_o have_v no_o right_n so_o that_o for_o aught_o we_o yet_o so_o the_o power_n that_o we_o speak_v of_o and_o which_o we_o hold_v to_o be_v in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o congregation_n be_v there_o indeed_o by_o the_o appointment_n of_o the_o lord_n but_o let_v we_o hear_v master_n rutherford_n answer_v first_o say_v he_o they_o seem_v to_o make_v this_o dogmatic_a power_n a_o church_n power_n and_o the_o exercise_n thereof_o formal_o a_o act_n of_o church_n government_n and_o so_o it_o must_v be_v church_n power_n and_o church_n government_n in_o the_o synod_n as_o well_o as_o in_o the_o congregation_n answ_n whence_o do_v it_o seem_v that_o we_o do_v so_o make_v it_o be_v there_o any_o such_o word_n as_o here_o he_o set_v down_o or_o any_o word_n equivalent_a thereto_o or_o do_v the_o place_n make_v any_o mention_n of_o church-power_n and_o church_n government_n at_o all_o or_o be_v there_o so_o much_o as_o one_o word_n that_o look_v that_o way_n if_o there_o be_v let_v our_o brother_n say_v that_o we_o seem_v to_o â—each_v as_o he_o do_v report_n but_o if_o there_o be_v not_o we_o be_v sorry_a he_o shall_v report_v we_o to_o teach_v oâ—_n seem_v to_o teach_v that_o which_o to_o our_o remembrance_n we_o never_o say_v nor_o think_v and_o sure_o it_o be_v we_o have_v express_o say_v the_o direct_a contrary_n in_o page_n 7_o the_o page_n next_o save_v one_o afore_o this_o which_o here_o he_o be_v deal_v against_o where_o we_o have_v these_o word_n it_o seem_v to_o we_o say_v we_o that_o this_o power_n viz._n by_o disquisition_n and_o disputation_n to_o clear_v up_o the_o rule_n and_o then_o to_o command_v obedience_n thereto_o be_v not_o proper_o a_o power_n and_o exercise_v of_o government_n and_o jurisdiction_n but_o a_o power_n of_o doctrine_n and_o so_o a_o synod_n be_v rather_o a_o teach_n then_o a_o govern_v church_n these_o be_v our_o word_n in_o the_o page_n afore_o allege_a wherein_o we_o plain_o express_v what_o the_o power_n of_o synod_n seem_v unto_o we_o to_o be_v even_o the_o direct_a contrary_a to_o that_o which_o he_o say_v we_o seem_v to_o make_v it_o we_o on_o the_o one_o side_n affirm_v and_o express_v that_o it_o seem_v to_o we_o the_o power_n of_o a_o synod_n be_v no_o power_n of_o government_n and_o jurisdiction_n but_o a_o power_n of_o doctrine_n and_o he_o on_o the_o other_o side_n report_v that_o we_o seem_v to_o make_v the_o exercise_n of_o dogmatic_a power_n to_o be_v formal_o a_o act_n of_o church-government_n and_o so_o to_o place_v church-government_n in_o the_o synod_n in_o which_o report_n we_o must_v needs_o say_v we_o be_v plain_o misreported_n his_o second_o answer_n be_v this_o the_o last_o period_n and_o conclusion_n of_o the_o controversy_n can_v be_v both_o in_o the_o congregation_n by_o right_a only_o and_o in_o the_o synod_n by_o right_a only_o for_o two_o last_o power_n can_v be_v proper_o in_o two_o subordinate_a judicature_n answ_n this_o be_v very_o true_a but_o it_o touch_v not_o we_o at_o all_o for_o we_o never_o say_v the_o last_o period_n of_o the_o controversy_n be_v both_o in_o the_o congregation_n only_o and_o in_o the_o synod_n only_o if_o we_o have_v so_o say_v let_v the_o place_n be_v produce_v where_o we_o have_v say_v it_o for_o the_o place_n by_o he_o allege_v do_v afford_v we_o no_o such_o thing_n nor_o any_o place_n else_o that_o we_o know_v of_o all_o that_o the_o place_n afford_v concern_v this_o point_n be_v only_o this_o that_o there_o be_v a_o power_n of_o clear_n the_o truth_n dogmatical_o in_o a_o synod_n though_o not_o in_o a_o synod_n only_o but_o also_o in_o the_o presbytery_n of_o a_o single_a congregation_n and_o this_o doctrine_n i_o hope_v our_o brother_n will_v not_o deny_v but_o whether_o this_o power_n be_v last_o in_o the_o synod_n or_o in_o the_o congregationall_a presbytery_n of_o this_o we_o do_v not_o speak_v at_o all_o much_o less_o do_v we_o say_v as_o he_o do_v apprehend_v and_o report_v that_o this_o power_n be_v both_o last_o in_o the_o synod_n and_o last_o in_o the_o congregation_n too_o wherefore_o our_o defence_n in_o this_o particular_a must_v needs_o be_v this_o that_o what_o here_o he_o confute_v to_o be_v out_v be_v such_o a_o thing_n as_o never_o fall_v from_o our_o mouth_n or_o pen_n nor_o for_o aught_o we_o know_v do_v never_o enter_v into_o our_o thought_n three_o he_o say_v if_o a_o controversy_n concern_v many_o congregation_n as_o this_o do_v act._n 15._o i_o see_v not_o how_o a_o congregation_n except_o they_o transgress_v their_o line_n can_v final_o determine_v it_o answ_n neither_o do_v this_o touch_v we_o except_o we_o have_v say_v that_o a_o congregation_n may_v final_o determine_v controversy_n which_o concern_v many_o church_n which_o yet_o we_o have_v not_o say_v as_o for_o that_o controversy_n act._n 15._o it_o be_v plain_a from_o verse_n 2_o that_o antioch_n do_v endeavour_v to_o have_v end_v it_o among_o themselves_o so_o far_o as_o they_o be_v trouble_v therewith_o for_o some_o teach_n that_o corrupt_a doctrine_n among_o they_o they_o have_v much_o disputation_n about_o the_o point_n afore_o they_o determine_v to_o send_v out_o for_o help_v elsewhere_o now_o to_o what_o end_n be_v thus_o much_o disputation_n if_o they_o have_v no_o right_a to_o determine_v the_o matter_n may_v they_o not_o better_o have_v spare_v their_o pain_n or_o do_v they_o not_o transgress_v their_o line_n in_o attempt_v what_o they_o do_v attempt_v sure_o it_o seem_v they_o do_v if_o they_o have_v not_o right_a to_o determine_v the_o matter_n but_o for_o our_o part_n since_o we_o do_v not_o find_v they_o in_o the_o least_o reprove_v by_o the_o holy_a ghost_n for_o this_o attempt_n therefore_o we_o can_v but_o think_v they_o do_v well_o therein_o and_o thereupon_o it_o follow_v that_o if_o antioch_n be_v a_o congregationall_a church_n as_o it_o seem_v to_o we_o it_o be_v from_o act._n 14._o 27._o either_o this_o controversy_n do_v trouble_v no_o church_n but_o antioch_n only_o or_o else_o when_o a_o controversy_n or_o corrupt_a opinion_n do_v trouble_v many_o church_n one_o of_o they_o may_v lawful_o determine_v and_o end_v it_o so_o far_o at_o it_o concern_v themselves_o chap._n v._n again_o of_o that_o assembly_n act._n 15._o whether_o their_o rebuke_v the_o false_a teacher_n do_v prove_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o excommunication_n in_o synod_n and_o whether_o preach_v do_v prove_v the_o assembly_n where_o it_o be_v to_o be_v a_o church_n the_o new_a place_n where_o i_o find_v he_o except_v
of_o the_o great_a necessity_n of_o discipline_n then_o of_o sacrament_n his_o word_n be_v these_o there_o be_v no_o such_o moral_a necessity_n of_o sacrament_n as_o there_o be_v of_o the_o ministry_n of_o the_o word_n and_o consequent_o of_o the_o use_n of_o the_o key_n where_o a_o scandalous_a person_n may_v infect_v the_o lord_n flock_n for_o where_o vision_n cease_v the_o people_n perish_v but_o it_o be_v never_o say_v where_o baptism_n cease_v the_o people_n perish_v pag._n 455._o answ_n how_o shall_v we_o be_v sure_a that_o by_o vision_n prov._n 26._o 18._o be_v mean_v discipline_n yea_o discipline_n not_o in_o a_o large_a sense_n as_o comprehend_v general_o all_o order_n and_o behaviour_n concern_v a_o church_n and_o outward_a duty_n therein_o but_o discipline_n strict_o take_v for_o administration_n of_o censure_n for_o of_o this_o be_v one_o question_n how_o i_o say_v shall_v we_o be_v sure_a that_o by_o vision_n be_v mean_v this_o discipline_n the_o usual_a expositor_n tremeliâ—â—_n and_o junius_n 〈…〉_z and_o other_o do_v expound_v the_o same_o of_o the_o preach_a and_o dispense_n of_o the_o word_n make_v no_o mention_n at_o all_o of_o discipline_n as_o mean_v thereby_o and_o the_o 〈◊〉_d branch_n of_o the_o verse_n he_o â—hat_n keep_v the_o law_n be_v bless_v do_v â—hew_v that_o by_o vision_n in_o the_o former_a branch_n be_v mean_v the_o law_n or_o doctrine_n or_o word_n of_o god_n and_o if_o the_o scripture_n do_v not_o sâ—y_v where_o baptism_n cease_v the_o people_n perish_v yet_o neither_o do_v it_o say_v where_o administration_n of_o censure_n cease_v the_o people_n perish_v and_o therefore_o no_o necessity_n of_o censure_n above_o sacrament_n can_v be_v conclude_v hence_o uncalled_a minister_n in_o case_n of_o necessity_n without_o ordination_n or_o call_n from_o a_o presbytery_n may_v preach_v and_o take_v on_o they_o the_o holy_a ministry_n and_o exercise_n power_n of_o jurisdiction_n because_o of_o the_o necessity_n of_o the_o soul_n of_o a_o congregation_n in_o a_o remote_a island_n require_v so_o answ_n if_o they_o may_v do_v these_o thing_n without_o ordination_n as_o for_o my_o part_n i_o deny_v it_o not_o so_o that_o the_o election_n or_o consent_n of_o the_o congregation_n be_v not_o wanâ—ing_v for_o that_o i_o suppose_v may_v be_v a_o good_a part_n of_o a_o outward_a calling_n than_o i_o demand_v whether_o one_o minister_n alone_o may_v not_o thus_o do_v i_o mean_v whether_o one_o alone_o may_v not_o in_o the_o case_n propose_v take_v on_o he_o the_o holy_a ministry_n and_o preach_v the_o word_n as_o a_o minister_n if_o many_o may_v do_v it_o than_o i_o suppose_v there_o be_v no_o question_n but_o one_o may_v do_v it_o much_o rather_o and_o if_o so_o than_o i_o demand_v further_o whether_o such_o a_o single_a minister_n may_v not_o also_o administer_v the_o sacrament_n to_o such_o a_o congregation_n i_o suppose_v it_o can_v be_v deny_v for_o if_o he_o lawful_o take_v on_o he_o the_o ministry_n and_o preach_v as_o a_o minister_n what_o shall_v hinder_v but_o he_o may_v also_o baptise_v and_o minister_v the_o lord_n supper_n and_o if_o he_o may_v thus_o do_v than_o i_o demand_v last_o whether_o this_o single_a minister_n may_v also_o administer_v discipline_n and_o censure_n in_o that_o congregation_n if_o he_o may_v then_o either_o the_o power_n of_o those_o censure_n must_v be_v in_o himself_o alone_o or_o in_o the_o congregation_n also_o in_o himself_o alone_a it_o can_v be_v because_o censure_n must_v be_v dispense_v by_o a_o church_n and_o one_o man_n alone_o can_v be_v a_o church_n if_o it_o be_v in_o the_o congregation_n also_o then_o here_o be_v a_o power_n of_o excommunication_n or_o other_o censure_n even_o in_o the_o people_n which_o be_v against_o our_o brother_n judgement_n if_o it_o be_v say_v that_o this_o single_a minister_n as_o long_o as_o he_o wanâ—s_v other_o minister_n join_v with_o he_o may_v not_o administer_v censure_n or_o discipline_n than_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o power_n of_o censure_n be_v not_o always_o annex_v to_o the_o ministry_n as_o a_o inseparable_a adjunct_n thereof_o nor_o be_v censure_n to_o be_v prefer_v before_o sacrament_n as_o more_o necessary_a as_o our_o brother_n will_v have_v it_o for_o as_o much_o as_o here_o be_v a_o ministry_n and_o the_o administer_a of_o sacrament_n the_o necessity_n of_o the_o soul_n of_o the_o congregation_n require_v so_o and_o yet_o for_o all_o this_o not_o any_o power_n of_o censure_n at_o all_o our_o brother_n therefore_o may_v make_v his_o choice_n whether_o he_o will_v grant_v the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n of_o discipline_n to_o be_v in_o the_o people_n or_o whether_o he_o will_v say_v the_o necessity_n of_o the_o soul_n in_o a_o congregation_n do_v require_v sacrament_n more_o than_o discipline_n for_o though_o these_o be_v both_o against_o himself_o yet_o upon_o the_o ground_n which_o himself_o do_v here_o lay_v the_o one_o of_o the_o two_o be_v unavoidable_a but_o i_o hope_v no_o necessity_n in_o any_o of_o the_o most_o extraordinary_a case_n require_v that_o a_o midwife_n may_v baptise_v or_o that_o a_o private_a man_n remain_v a_o private_a man_n may_v celebrate_v the_o lord_n supper_n to_o the_o church_n without_o any_o call_n from_o the_o church_n answ_n concern_v the_o midwife_n i_o think_v the_o same_o that_o he_o do_v and_o concern_v the_o private_a man_n i_o also_o therein_o â—â—curre_v that_o without_o call_v from_o the_o church_n he_o may_v not_o perform_v what_o here_o be_v speak_v of_o but_o here_o i_o will_v make_v this_o quare_fw-la whether_o 〈◊〉_d man_n that_o never_o be_v a_o minister_n may_v not_o as_o well_o in_o a_o extraordinary_a case_n perform_v 〈◊〉_d act_n of_o administer_a of_o baptism_n or_o the_o lord_n supper_n without_o any_o call_n from_o the_o 〈◊〉_d bytery_n or_o the_o church_n unto_o who_o the_o office_n of_o ministry_n as_o take_v on_o he_o without_o any_o such_o call_n the_o whole_a ministry_n and_o so_o preach_v and_o exercise_v the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n as_o a_o minister_n for_o as_o for_o the_o one_o of_o these_o our_o brother_n express_o grant_v a_o man_n mâ—y_o lawful_o take_v it_o on_o he_o without_o any_o such_o calling_n the_o necessity_n of_o the_o soul_n of_o a_o congregation_n in_o a_o island_n require_v so_o and_o if_o this_o necessity_n will_v warrant_v the_o one_o which_o be_v the_o whole_a and_o so_o the_o great_a why_o will_v it_o not_o warrant_v the_o other_o which_o be_v but_o one_o act_n and_o so_o the_o lesser_a one_o will_v think_v one_o act_n of_o dispense_n baptism_n or_o the_o supper_n be_v a_o lesser_a matter_n than_o the_o whole_a ministry_n and_o all_o the_o action_n thereof_o and_o marvel_v it_o be_v that_o the_o necessity_n of_o the_o soul_n of_o a_o congregation_n shall_v warrant_v this_o which_o be_v the_o great_a and_o yet_o the_o same_o necessity_n shall_v not_o be_v sufficient_a warrant_n for_o the_o lesser_a a_o man_n calling_n be_v otherwise_o alike_o unto_o both_o that_o be_v have_v a_o outward_a call_n to_o neither_o himself_o do_v sometime_o reason_n thus_o if_o we_o give_v to_o believer_n that_o be_v not_o in_o office_n one_o pastoral_a act_n we_o may_v with_o the_o like_a weight_n of_o reason_n give_v they_o all_o peaceable_a plea_n page_n 272._o now_o if_o this_o reason_n be_v good_a from_o one_o act_n to_o all_o why_o be_v no_o this_o as_o good_a from_o all_o to_o any_o one_o or_o to_o some_o one_o and_o why_o may_v we_o not_o in_o like_a manner_n argue_v thus_o if_o person_n uncalled_a may_v without_o ordination_n or_o call_n take_v on_o they_o the_o whole_a ministry_n why_o may_v not_o person_n uncalled_a without_o ordination_n or_o call_n take_v on_o they_o to_o baptise_v or_o minister_v the_o supper_n not_o that_o i_o think_v such_o a_o practice_n to_o be_v lawful_a but_o only_o i_o intend_v to_o make_v quaere_fw-la about_o the_o validity_n of_o our_o brother_n kind_n of_o argue_v yea_o it_o be_v elsewhere_o his_o argue_v that_o it_o person_n not_o in_o office_n of_o ministry_n may_v execute_v censure_n and_o discipline_n they_o may_v then_o administer_v the_o sacrament_n for_o say_v he_o what_o hinder_v by_o this_o reason_n but_o they_o may_v also_o without_o minister_n preach_v and_o administer_v the_o sacrament_n peaceable_a plea_n page_n 196._o yea_o say_v he_o i_o sâ—e_v not_o but_o with_o a_o like_a warrant_n private_a man_n may_v administer_v the_o sacrament_n vbi_fw-la supra_fw-la page_n 196._o this_o we_o see_v be_v his_o argue_v elsewhere_o and_o yet_o in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n he_o grant_v that_o person_n uncalled_a may_v in_o case_n of_o necessity_n without_o ordination_n or_o call_n take_v on_o they_o the_o ministry_n in_o general_a and_o in_o particular_a may_v exercise_v the_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o yet_o for_o all_o this_o he_o say_v that_o no_o
as_o we_o see_v that_o in_o some_o case_n one_o may_v be_v a_o pastor_n without_o ordination_n whereupon_o it_o must_v needs_o follow_v either_o that_o one_o may_v be_v a_o pastor_n without_o any_o authoritative_a call_n or_o else_o that_o ordination_n be_v in_o effect_n but_o the_o same_o with_o imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o so_o there_o be_v no_o such_o difference_n between_o they_o as_o be_v pretend_v but_o so_o many_o pastor_n send_v a_o pastor_n to_o a_o congregation_n though_o that_o congregation_n never_o choose_v he_o answ_n take_v your_o own_o word_n for_o answer_n pag._n 496._o we_o never_o read_v that_o in_o the_o apostle_n church_n a_o man_n be_v obtrude_v upon_o the_o people_n against_o their_o will_n and_o therefore_o election_n by_o the_o people_n in_o the_o apostolic_a church_n as_o act._n 1._o 26._o act._n 6._o 2_o 3_o 4._o rev._n 2._o 1_o 2._o act._n 20._o v._n 28._o must_v be_v our_o rule_n any_o election_n without_o the_o people_n consent_n must_v be_v no_o election_n for_o if_o it_o please_v not_o the_o whole_a multitude_n as_o act._n 6._o 5._o it_o be_v not_o a_o choice_n and_o in_o pag._n 465._o he_o tell_v we_o that_o all_o incorporation_n have_v power_n by_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n to_o choose_v their_o own_o ruler_n and_o officer_n and_o that_o christ_n have_v provide_v the_o same_o in_o a_o eminant_a manner_n for_o his_o church_n and_o therefore_o for_o this_o passage_n that_o many_o pastor_n may_v send_v a_o pastor_n to_o be_v pastor_n to_o a_o congregation_n though_o that_o congregation_n never_o choose_v he_o we_o desire_v that_o he_o will_v take_v his_o own_o money_n for_o payment_n chap._n xxv_o whether_o a_o minister_n call_v consist_v in_o election_n or_o in_o imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o whether_o of_o those_o be_v great_a and_o whether_o be_v prior_n or_o posterior_n whether_o 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o act._n 6._o 2_o 3_o 4._o act._n 13._o 1_o 2_o 3._o do_v prove_v that_o the_o minister_n call_v consist_v in_o imposition_n of_o hand_n by_o the_o presbytery_n and_o that_o such_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v not_o a_o consumatory_n rite_n or_o benedictory_n sign_n also_o whether_o rom._n 10._o 15._o do_v prove_v that_o a_o man_n can_v be_v a_o minister_n except_o some_o presbytery_n ordain_v he_o afore_o the_o people_n choose_v he_o and_o whether_o otherwise_o the_o people_n do_v send_v a_o minster_n to_o themselves_o and_o whether_o the_o people_n of_o god_n may_v not_o aswell_o discern_v a_o man_n fitness_n to_o be_v ordain_v as_o his_o fitness_n to_o be_v elect_v pag_n 493._o if_o the_o people_n may_v elect_v officer_n then_o in_o some_o case_n they_o may_v ordain_v they_o also_o because_o ordination_n be_v less_o than_o election_n and_o depend_v upon_o it_o as_o a_o necessary_a antecedent_n and_o it_o be_v nothing_o but_o a_o consummation_n of_o election_n or_o the_o admission_n of_o a_o person_n into_o the_o possession_n of_o that_o office_n whereto_o he_o have_v right_o before_o by_o election_n if_o then_o a_o single_a congregation_n may_v elect_v which_o be_v the_o great_a they_o may_v ordain_v which_o be_v the_o less_o and_o for_o this_o he_o allege_v the_o answer_n pag._n 46_o 47._o and_o then_o give_v answer_v thereto_o in_o these_o word_n ordination_n be_v the_o more_o and_o election_n the_o lesser_a for_o ordination_n be_v a_o act_n authoritative_a of_o the_o presbytery_n 1._o tim._n 4._o 14._o answ_n take_v ordination_n as_o we_o take_v it_o for_o imposition_n of_o hand_n on_o a_o church_n officer_n and_o then_o we_o think_v it_o be_v less_o than_o election_n as_o be_v but_o a_o rite_n or_o ceremony_n use_v at_o a_o minister_n entrance_n into_o his_o office_n but_o not_o at_o all_o of_o the_o essence_n thereof_o nor_o be_v we_o alone_o or_o the_o first_o that_o have_v so_o think_v for_o to_o omit_v other_o he_o that_o write_v the_o book_n call_v the_o unbishoping_a of_o timothy_n and_o tytus_fw-la affirm_v pag._n 114._o that_o it_o be_v no_o essential_a but_o a_o ceremonial_a part_n of_o ordination_n which_o may_v be_v sufficient_o make_v without_o it_o and_o say_v that_o angelus_n de_fw-fr clavasio_n peter_n martyr_n and_o other_o both_o papist_n and_o protestant_n affirm_v the_o same_o and_o in_o pag._n 116._o he_o say_v it_o be_v a_o act_n of_o service_n or_o ministry_n not_o of_o authority_n and_o no_o more_o than_o a_o external_a compliment_n or_o ceremony_n allege_v dr._n ames_n &_o other_o for_o the_o same_o tenant_n but_o now_o election_n be_v more_o than_o a_o ceremony_n that_o may_v be_v omit_v mr._n rutherford_n himself_o be_v judge_n for_o in_o his_o pag._n 496._o he_o tell_v we_o that_o in_o the_o apostolic_a church_n a_o minister_n be_v never_o obtrude_v upon_o the_o people_n against_o their_o will_n but_o that_o they_o still_o have_v the_o election_n of_o their_o minister_n and_o this_o he_o say_v must_v be_v our_o rule_n so_o that_o any_o election_n without_o the_o people_n consent_n must_v be_v no_o election_n for_o if_o it_o please_v not_o the_o whole_a multitude_n it_o be_v not_o a_o choice_n and_o in_o p._n 202._o he_o tell_v we_o out_o of_o chrysostome_n that_o all_o election_n of_o pastor_n be_v null_a without_o the_o consent_n of_o the_o people_n whereby_o it_o seem_v that_o election_n be_v something_o essential_a and_o so_o consequent_o more_o than_o imposition_n of_o hand_n which_o be_v but_o a_o rite_n or_o ceremony_n which_o may_v be_v absent_a and_o yet_o a_o man_n have_v all_o the_o essentials_n of_o a_o minister_n notwithstanding_o as_o for_o 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o the_o imposition_n of_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n there_o speak_v of_o i_o conceive_v can_v not_o be_v any_o act_n of_o superior_a authority_n but_o only_o a_o approbatory_a sign_n or_o rite_n which_o may_v be_v use_v by_o inferior_n towards_o your_o superior_n for_o timothy_n be_v a_o evangelist_n how_o can_v any_o ordinary_a presbytery_n have_v authority_n over_o he_o or_o give_v office_n or_o authority_n to_o he_o beside_o it_o be_v not_o say_v that_o timothy_n receive_v his_o gift_n by_o the_o lay_n on_o of_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n but_o by_o the_o prophecy_n and_o by_o the_o lay_n on_o of_o paul_n hand_n and_o with_o the_o lay_n on_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n now_o between_o those_o two_o phrase_n by_o the_o lay_n on_o of_o hand_n and_o with_o the_o same_o there_o be_v great_a difference_n the_o one_o import_v some_o cause_n or_o authority_n or_o power_n the_o other_o import_v no_o more_o but_o a_o approbatory_a rite_n or_o a_o sign_n use_v in_o a_o solemn_a commend_v of_o one_o to_o god_n by_o prayer_n altar_n damascen_n pag._n 161._o of_o which_o more_o be_v to_o be_v see_v in_o the_o plea_n for_o the_o church_n in_o new_a england_n part_n of_o the_o second_o chap._n 12._o quest_n 2_o 4._o for_o aught_o i_o see_v the_o author_n may_v argue_v thus_o the_o people_n may_v ordain_v ergo_fw-la they_o may_v preach_v and_o baptise_v for_o all_o the_o three_o be_v presbyterial_a act_n give_v to_o man_n in_o office_n answ_n we_o read_v in_o mornay_n de_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la chap._n â—_o that_o of_o old_a time_n it_o be_v a_o argument_n rise_v in_o the_o church_n he_o may_v baptise_v he_o may_v administer_v the_o lord_n supper_n ergo_fw-la he_o may_v lay_v on_o hand_n but_o such_o argue_v as_o mr_n rutherford_n use_v they_o may_v lay_v on_o hand_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v baptise_v this_o we_o remember_v not_o that_o we_o have_v read_v in_o any_o author_n except_o in_o he_o nor_o do_v we_o think_v the_o consequence_n the_o same_o inasmuch_o as_o in_o the_o one_o the_o argument_n proceed_v from_o the_o great_a to_o the_o less_o and_o in_o the_o other_o from_o the_o less_o to_o the_o great_a and_o yet_o affirmative_o in_o both_o thus_o the_o argument_n be_v understand_v by_o the_o forename_a author_n of_o the_o unbishoping_a of_o timothy_n and_o tytus_fw-la who_o in_o pag._n 100_o speak_v of_o these_o word_n of_o mornay_n lay_v down_o the_o argument_n thus_o he_o can_v baptise_v he_o can_v consecrate_v and_o administer_v the_o lord_n supper_n which_o be_v the_o great_a and_o more_o honourable_a action_n ergo_fw-la he_o may_v lay_v on_o hand_n which_o be_v the_o less_o and_o this_o kind_n of_o argue_v for_o my_o part_n i_o think_v to_o be_v good_a but_o for_o that_o of_o mr._n rutherford_n i_o see_v no_o more_o consequence_n therein_o then_o if_o one_o shall_v say_v he_o that_o may_v do_v the_o lesser_a may_v do_v the_o great_a also_o in_o which_o i_o see_v no_o strength_n of_o consequence_n at_o all_o pag._n 493_o 494._o whereas_o some_o say_v act._n 6._o 3_o 4_o 5._o election_n of_o seven_o man_n to_o be_v deacon_n go_v before_o ordination_n or_o imposition_n of_o hand_n v_o 6._o answ_n election_n of_o the_o people_n go_v before_o ordination_n in_o the_o