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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
power_n	authority_n	church_n	elder_n	3,463	5	9.7366	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A80418	A coole conference between the Scottish commissioners cleared reformation, and the Holland ministers apologeticall narration, brought together by a well-willer to both.		1644 (1644)	Wing C6045; Thomason E35_15; ESTC R19126	16,004	18

and interpose his authoritie for strengthning th● sentence of Non communion Apolog. There is not one word in the Apologies discourse of this point to extenuate the power of Synods which being according to the Scriptures they hold them in the highest esteeme that ever the Scripture advanced them to And on the other side they there give us an expresse that besides the said exhortations protestations and Non communion that they professe themselves ever to submit and also to be most willing to have recourse to the civill Magistrate interposing a power of another nature upon his particular cognizance and examination of such causes Reformat pag. 21. 22. To the said objection we answer 1 for there are 5 answers by way of direct confutation that this objection supposeth a case which hath not been found in the Church of Scotland for the space of eightie yeers and beleeve was never heard of in any of the Reformed Churches except those of the Separation the pronouncing of Non communion or Excommunication against a whole Church Our Excommunication hath been executed but seldome against particular members never against a whole Church and we think never shall be and therefore this imaginarie fear of that which never falleth out is not considerable rules are made for ordinarie and usuall cases Apolog. Who that have seriously read and weighed the Apologie and therein their disclaiming of the Separation properly so called their owning the Churches of Scotland and many in England for true Churches their just account of their practise in Holland and their proceedings towards the Church mistaking would after all this call the Apologizers Churches Churches of the Separation unlesse withall they exprest they meant Separation from the Prelates wayes as Scotland and England now do But what ever true Churches be named we see no reason though others beleeve quod factum non est nec fieri potest that which never hath been never shall be but that they may be incident and liable to fall into that case of having to do with a whole particular Church erring especially till those swarmes of Anabaptists Antinomians c. which have been so oft intimated and sounded in our eares be allayd You brethren your selves suppose more and therefore you may suppose the lesse For in your second answer to this objection as you call it you suppose that two or more Churches may mutually protest and pronounce the sentence of non communi●● one against another In which case say you pronouncing of non com●●●ion would prove rather a meane of division then of union and there wou●d be no remedy where the censure is mutuall to compose this difference unlesse there be a common Presbytery or Synod made up of the whole To which we answer that this case hath befallen Provinces and National prelaticall Churches in matter of Excommunication too each of them having a severall Pope in them have excommunicated one another And we see not that antidote in one of the wayes you mention namely a Classicall Provinciall Presbytery but that one provinciall Presbytery may protest against and excommunicate the other For the other way for you propound two and we are willing to take the best namely a Nationall Synod gathered and guided according to the Scriptures we willingly embrace And they that will not take the judgement of such a Synod having no Scripture to alledge justly against their resolutions let them fall into the hands of the Magistrate the Preserver of the publick peace This same reply serves to your third and fourth answer We need adde but a word in reply to your fifth answer wherein you demand by what probability it can be made to appear to any rationall man and indifferent mind that no authoritie shall be as valid as authoritie against the obstinate that Via admonitionis requisitionis is equall with Via citationis publicae authoritatis To which we answer that if it be stated that that is authoritie which is Scripture authoritie and not else and that to be most valid that convinceth and conquers actus elicitos the mind rather then that which doth onely manacle and constraine actus imperat●s the outward carriage the demand is soon answered Is the way of admonition protestation and non communion no authoritie Is that no authoritie that tels us we must give no offence Better a milstone were hanged about ones neck and he cast into the Sea then to offend a weaker brother That we were better not eat flesh then to offend c. Or is it no authoritie when a whole Church after fasting and prayer and clear disputation shall tell the obstinate erring that upon those grounds they will withdraw from them as from Heathens and Publicans The truth is that the prelaticall men have made much use of this your case alledged to plead for Bishops as most necessarie to keep Churches in union But Gods authoritie held forth to us in the judgements of Nationall Synods according to the Word will prove more effectuall then any humane instituted way whatsoever to unite Churches Reformat pag. 24. The other objection is that by this authoritie and order of government one Church hath power over another which is contrarie to that libertie and equalitie Christ hath endewed his Churches with and is no other but a n●w prelaticall dominion set over the Churches of Christ To this say you we answer 1 That we are far from imposing any such c●ll●terall power The power which we maintain is aggregative of the Offi●ers of many Congregations over the particular members in which as in the naturall and politick body one member is not subject to another but is to the whole 2 It is say you a miserable mistake to compare Presbyteries and Prelates together For the Courts of Prelates are altogether f●rrain and extrinsecall in the Congregations over which they rule But the power of Presbyteries is intrinsecall and naturall they being constitute of the Pastors and Elders of the particular Congregations ●ver which they are set So that another without themselves doth not bear rule over them but all of them by common consent do rule over every one which is no more then ●●r a memb●●●f a particular Congregation to be ruled by his own particular Eld●●ship F●r they dis●ern no sentence of excommunication of any member without the knowledge and consent of the particular Congregation that is particularly concerned therein Apolog. You say you impose n●t a collaterall power Sure your laws do impose that one congregation shall be subject to the Elders suppose of twenty congregations And the authority of 19 of them is as ●●llaterall The congregations every one chose their own officers to rule over themselves in the Lord. But we heare not you say that they chose their Officers to rule over themselves and others though we hear you say that the Officers themselves are readie enough to consent so to rule which is as extrinsecall as Episcopacie if Episcopacie be as intrinsecall as Presbyterie For are not Bishops chosen by the people at their instalment where customarily people are allowed to make any just exception and hath in part been practised in England though with little successe in their domineering times Just as anciently as Hieronimus tels us Vnus eligebatur qui caeteris preponoretur c. To av●id schisme one of the class●●all Presbytery was chosen to be as Chai●-man over them all in their Consistorie who from being so annually at last became so for his life time and so hence was born Episcopacy Besides we know that the Bishop and his Chaplains Chancellour Archdeacon Register c. were parishioners within their own Diocesse if not Elders or Officers in their severall congregations And people formerly have been as willing they should reigne as ever any people were in your Kingdom to have the Presbyterie over them And the Bishops on the other side did as cunningly comply with the Congregations they grounding their Court proceedings upon the Church-wardens or Parish Elders presentments upon the peoples complaints and testimony and did not passe an Excommunication without the subscription of the hand of a Minister or two of that Archdeaconrie or Countie-Presbyterie and last of all the Excommunication was not pronounced without the consent of the Minister of the particular Congregation So that it is clear it is not peoples consent onely but if according to the Word that makes a government lawfull God hath chalked out to us patterns of people chusing Officers for the congregation And congregations chusing men for Synods or Councels but not as we conceive of chusing men to make a middle classicall Presbyterie What ever plausible shews of reason may seem to commend a way yet onely Gods way shall have the blessing of God upon it And if it cannot be resolved on all hands as yet clearly which is it let that your golden speech be written upon all your actions That th●se that are m●st averse to ☜ Reform p. 26. Presbytery if they allow no materiall difference in doctrine worship or practise might inj●y their peace and all comforts of their Ministery and profession under it without controlment of that authoritative power which they so much apprehend We have been of late made to fear the contrary by the reports of some not of meanest rank of your own Nation but now we desire rather to hope upon your words here given under your own hands then fear by reason of theirs Trusting also that as you were kindly invited to our Assembly so you will be as helpfull to our poore Churches as your Armies by God● blessing are like to be the Common-wealth according as both Nations have vowed to indeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England and Ireland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government according to the Word of God 〈◊〉 p. 26. We crave leave to conclude with your own words hoping we may as confidently speak them as you did namely That so much for the present have we said not for confutation but meerly for justifying our own and other reformed Churches against such mis-representings and mistakings as in matters of Religion are too frequent in this place a● this time c. FINIS

first yet afterwards were of greater number in one City then did or could ordinarily assemble in one place for the worship of God and therefore had a plurality of Pastors and Officers which made a common Presbytery for governing the whole Apologet. These words makes a speech of a Judge at an Assizes touching Lent-fastings to come to mind Who said that he could prove that Lent-fastings were of Apostolicall institution for the last six hundred yeers Whereupon one standing by said to another of his friends That all the craft and cunning lay in this for the Judge to prove it to be Apostolicall for the first six hundred yeers or the first hundred or first f●urty yeers But to return to the Apologie whose words are milde and soft but as wooll-packs deadning Cannon shot that the bullets can do no hurt can make no battery We could not Apol. p. 13. saith the Apologie but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one City at first then might make Observe that the same argument that is urged to prove a Presbytery was formerly urged by the Bishops to prove an Episcopacy up one entire congregation ruled by their own Elders that also preached to them For that in every City where they came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundrie Congregations or that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteri●ll combination we did not imagine We found also the Nonconformists in their answer to the arguments used for Episcopall government over many Churches brought from the instances of the multitudes of beleevers at Jerusalem and other places and Cities mentioned in the New Testament to assert that it could not be infallibly proved that any of those we read of in the Acts or elsewhere were yet so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first times So the Apologie The word afterwards hath a large extent and therefore d●●h no● punctually tell us whether you mean after the Apostles ti●es or when and therefore doth nothing weaken the Apo●●●●i● and so you and we must leave it as we found it unblemished in this as the rest which is the onely designe in this paper leaving it to disputation to be discussed out Reformat pag. 13. To a●●uch when we are not challenged that we 〈…〉 to the Magistrate then the reformed Churches do they being 〈…〉 their own principles of Ecclesiasticall government may suffer a 〈◊〉 ●●●st●uction then we our selves would willingly undergo or put upon the intentions of men who seek not their own things but the things of Jesus Christ Apolog. Let the world judge whether the Apologizers and those of their judgements were not challenged when the Peaceable Plea cals them not onely in the book but in the title of the book in the face of the world Independents Which the Apologie could not but upon just grounds count as a proud and insolent title for any Apol p 23. to assume and as a trumpet of defiance against what ever power Spirituall or Civill from them that should be conceived to own it and therfore do in expresse words there abhor it and detest it that Churches and Magistrates should not loose the true face of their judgement in such a swelling title For if upon a grosse errour of Ref●rm p. 23. C●●●ule Bez●m de Haereticis a civili Magistr pu●●●ndis an another Church they dare exercise onely a non communion with it which after you call no authoritie then there is more left for the Magistrate to do then when you have excommunicated it which you call there your power So likewise when a classicall Presbyterie of many Ministers and lay-men and those of great place and power in the Common-wealth shall authoritatively rule all matters of sixtie or an hundred Parishes that are but mixtly Ecclesiasticall but partly secular or civill if some of them not so altogether one would think now that here were left lesse to the Magistrate then when every one of those severall Parishes regularly gathered into a Church way do meddle with nothing as Churches but things purely Ecclesiasticall leaving the rest to the Magistrate who is the civill power over them all We give for the present some small instance to take off the prejudices of us that may be instilled into the minds of civill power by the abhorred name of Independancy and not to bring any or their way into an odium with any as we hope they in their books that have so oft up the names of Separation Brownisme Independancy Popular Anarchie c. do not intend to render us odious For till Church government be clearly discussed according to the Scriptures the scale is even which side to use your own words doth most imitate the Pagans and Infidels of old the Papists Prelates and Arminians Reform p. 13. of late to make the way of Christ hatefull to Princes and Magistrates And till it doth appear whose principles are closest to the rule of the Word all will say in your phrase that they give fully as much as any to the Magistrate as God in his Word giveth them and so cannot be more or lesse And for our own parts to wash our own hearts from finister intentions we wish a curse upon those designes that shall flatter men to facilitate a forming and winding in of a Discipline that shall not be the closest to the Scriptures Reformat pag. 17. No sooner is the Prelaticall party by the power and blessing of God begun to be subdued in this Island but ariseth unexpectedly the opposition on the other hand waiting the opportunity stronger then it was before which moved some of our Divines of late to write on this hand in defence of the government of the reformed Churches as others had done before them in other Churches In France Beza against Morelius Sadeel Two Nationall Synods also of the reformed Churches in France the one at Orleans 1561. Another at Rochel 1571. Apolog. It should seem by your own quotations here that long before your No sooner c. not staying to wait this opportunitie learned and godly men have written neer an hundred yeers since against Classicall Presbyteries and for Congregationall Churches Besides those many worthy famous men which you quote with honour in your Peaceable Plea As for Mr. Beza against Morelius Sadeel his Tract is not at hand and therefore we cannot now speak to it particularly But this ●ou know that an honest Aeriu● a Presbyter is condemned by a pi●●s and learned Epiph●nius as guiltie of heresie for saying that a B●●hop did not differ from a Presbyter but that a Presbyter was as high in dignity and order as the Bishop * Quid est Episcopus ad Presbyterum Nihil hic differt ab illo unus enim