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power_n	apostle_n	church_n	key_n	4,850	5	9.8788	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A82522	The defence of sundry positions & scriptures for the Congregational-way justified: or An answer to an epistle written by Mr. Richard Hollingworth, unto S.E. and T.T. wherein he (in many particulars) chargeth them with injurious dealing against God, and against himselfe, in that booke of theirs, called A defence of sundry positions, &c. Containing a vindication from such charges and aspersions so laid upon them. As also a briefe answer to his large (if not unreasonable) demands, to have scripturall, or rationall answ. given to his 112 queries. / By Sam: Eaton teacher Tim: Taylor pastor [brace] of [brace] the church at Duckenfield in Cheshire. Published according to order.	Eaton, Samuel, 1596?-1665.; Taylor, Timothy, 1611 or 12-1681.	1646 (1646)	Wing E120; Thomason E346_4; ESTC R24943	33,505	50

they gave no such Command Answ You lately found fault with an argument of ours because it was a Comparatis alleadging that allusions and Comparisons are not argumentative if allusions and Comparisons were not capable of a better symmetrie and proportion then this of yours we should not onely not yeeld them to be argumentative but we should disavow and discard them as not illustrative For though it was not our intent as we said to answer all the branches of your objections with this one instance but onely that that deceives its strength from the truth of Churches and therefore your triumph out-running your victory might well have beene spared when you say your not bringing a more punctuall and more pertinent proofe argues either an implicite confession of the truth of my answer or inability to oppose it and though we have brought other punctuall and pertinent proofes which are above the reach of your instance yet though all were as you would beare the world in hand your Allegorie wants that due proportion that should render it illustrative much more argumentative For First it is not the practise of Congregationall members or Churches to take any much lesse as many good members as they can come by out of this and that and the other neighbouring Churches concerning which God hath given no Command that those persons should leave those Churches For so your comparison should be framed to make it runne paralell with the case Nay the Congregationall members make it their scope to take in none but those that having righteously withdrawne themselves from other Churches doe voluntarily tender themselves to communion with them that so they may enjoy those Ordinances purely with the corruption of which they were not onely polluted but endangered before And that they may enjoy other Ordinances purchased for their speciall edification by the precious bloud of Christ which their soules languished in the want of whilest they were some of them as members in the line of Parochiall-Communication Once more it is the scope and end of Congregationall members and Churches if we understand them aright sure we are it is our owne desire and practise to receive in no members but from such Churches in which we have no ground of hope in sight for a reformation in any tollerable proportion of time all of us having expressed the offence given us by Parochiall disorders to private brethren because it would have beene interpreted a disturbance of the Churches peace for private persons to speake publiquely against the received practise of the Church And some of us who by our calling were better enabled having not onely in vaine witnessed against the Leaven with which we saw the Churches leavened but also fruitlesly waited a long time for redresse of present greivances when there was no hope left have withdrawne 3. If God by meanes of this present happy Parliament wherein next under God is our present hope or by other should worke such a reformation that we might comfortably joyne with Churches meeting neerer to our habitations then our owne we should be willing for our parts and we beleeve the same of all our brethren to lay downe by mutuall consent our Covenant and fall into fellowship in severall other Churches especially where we were sometimes members respectively 4. It supposeth the Churches from which our members have withdrawne have as good right to hold their members as well as any man in Derby hundred hath to with-hold the stones of his house from those that without a just power endeavour to take them away which how you will make out seeing that you hold no other tie but the boundaries and limits of the Parish or Chappelry do so fervently dispute against expresse agreements and Covenants we understand not Yet if the waies and walking of Parish Churches were such as tended to the edification of the members and no just cause appeare of their removall or withdrawing we should not contest with you about it But if either visible wicked members be admitted to the Lords Supper without hope of redresse or the dispensation of the Lords Supper and execution of the power of the Keys and other Ordinances be wanting without hope of redresse we conceive they have no more power to with-hold such a member from joyning to another Church for his spirituall better accomdation than a Master hath to with-hold his Servant from removing to another Family that so he may not be enfeebled by being straitned in his food or endangered by the unwholsomenesse thereof 5. Fifthly But it may be there may be some more ground for your fift charge which is That we discover too much willingnesse to quarrell at your expressions a little after say you you discover too much willingnesse to quarrell at my expresfions wherein you say I would suggest that you make opposition to Magistracy but doth not Master Weld a Congregationall man when Master Rathband chargeth Independents to hold that Christians may and ought to set up new Churches and practise in them all Gods Ordinances without the consent of a Christian State yea against their peremptory Commands and established lawes and in the midst and against the minde of such Churches as they freely acknowledg to be the true Churches of God say of this Article no pen can expresse a greater latitude of opposition against Magistracy and Lawes and Churches too then he affirmes to be in us Doe not I use his owne words Print them in a different Character Cite them in the Margent c. Answ True you do so notwithstanding it was not discerned by us and the fault was most in your selfe For you print it in a different Character and cite Master Weld in the Margent but were defective in a letter to guide to the citation and hence the mistake For you cite Answer to 9 pos pag. 76. as appertaining to the letter U speaking of something that was proper to Apostolick men and then immediately joyne T. W. to W. R. pag. 67. by close to it without any other letter as if it had belonged to the same thing and so we received of it as you may discerne by our defence when we make any mention of that part of your answer which speakes of the Apostles preaching against the peremptory Command of Magistrates we print your Citation pointed at by the letter b and we annexe T. W. to W. R. pag. 67. to it as appertaining to the same thing The truth is we were faulty also because if we could have looked into that place of Master Welds booke we might have rcctified our selves in that mistake But that Booke was out of our way when we should have done it and afterwards we did not minde And as for the different Character we minded it lesse because for many causes the Character is changed besides that when other mens words are cited Had we beene aware that they were Master Welds words we would have have given a more pertinent answer which hereafter if there shall

there i● no difference in that betwixt us and the primitive Apostolicke gentile Churches 2. The civill custome of those Countries differ much from ours hence we are not bound to make the covering of a mans head a token of dishonour 1 Cor. 11. 4 5. 7. 10. Answer What ever it be that the Apostle meaneth by covering of the head for that is disputable it seemeth to us to be perpetuall and binding to all Churches as well as to that of Corinth because of the Apostles reasons in 1 Cor. 11. 7. 14. He saith ver 7. The man ought not to cover the head because he is the Image and glory of God but the woman must because she is the glory of the man And ver 14. he saith Nature it selfe teacheth that if a man have long haire it is a shame to him because haire is not given to him for a covering For so it is to be understood to make the Antithesis perfect But if a woman have long haire it is an honour to her because her h●ire is given her for a covering We think the reason is fetcht from the excellency of the one sexe above the other and that reason which is drawne from nature are perpetuall And if ever in force remaine still in force 3. The Church was then but in gathering from amongst Heathens and Jewes bence we want examples to convince refractory Anabaptists of the baptizing of Christian Infants c. Answ Such an argument as this you use to defend your selves in pleading for an Nationall Church Scripture say you mentioneth not a Nationall Church for beleevers were not so many then as to beare the name of a Kingdome or Nation As we conceived it weake against us so may the Anabaptists judge it unsatisfactory against them For can any one rationally thinke but that among those many thousands converted of Jewes and Heathens and gathered into Christian Churches there were not many who had Infant Children some of them borne before they were converted who upon such conversion of their parents were to be accounted Christian Infants and others borne after such conversion in that period of time which the history of the Acts of the Apostles fills up which Infants must also be stiled Christian Infants And if so then the reason of wanting examples of baptizing Christian Infants is not that which you alledge viz. because the Church was then but in gathering from amongst the Heathens and Jewes But because it seemed good to the Holy Ghost for what cause we dare not determine to forbeare the expresse mentioning of Infants baptisme 4. The Church was then under heathenish persecuting Magistrates hence they had no houses built for or appropriated to holy worship Answ In your Examinations pag. 6. you cite 1. Cor. 11. 22. and say To come together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is if rightly translated to come together in one place and ●o Ecclesia is opposed to the buildings or houses in which they did eate and drinke in Here you say That the primitive Churches had not houses c. Doe you not manifestly contradict your selfe for if they were not houses in which they did eate and drinke in but did meete together in for holy worship were they not so farre forth set a part for holy worship If by appropriation of houses to holy worship which you say was not then in the primitive times but ought to be now you meane such a setting a part as must necessarily exclude all using of such houses to other purposes it is superstition so to conceive or speake But if you grant that ●se may be made of them otherwise then in Gods worship How are they then appropriated to Gods worship more now then in the times of primitive Churches For they were then knowne noted places at least among some Churches and capacious of great multitudes in which the Churches did ordinarily meete as from 1 Cor. 14. 23. appeares They meete in the night to pray preach and celebrate the Supper Ans And did they not meet in the day also How else did 1 Cor. 14. 23 the unbeleevers meet with them come among them Ministers had no setled maintenance Answ It is a non sequitur that because the Church was under Heathenish and persecuting Magistrates therefore Ministers had no setled maintenance Is there any rule for setled maintenance in the whole Gospell which yet being that there are predictions many of peaceable and prosperous times to the Church there might have beene if God had meant any such thing Nay there are intimations if not cleare declarations against setled maintenance to arise from the Churches There was then an extraordinary effussion of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles Evangelists and sundry of the Elders and people hence there was no neede of Universities c. Answ Yes there was neede because you speake but of sundry and the Apostle desired that they all might speake with tongues but rather that they might prophesie 1 Cor. 14. 5. therefore there might be use of schooles in reference to them that wanted extraordinary gifts Nor of studying for Sermons Answ Yes Else what meaneth the Apostle when he bids Timothy stirre up the gift c. and give attendance to reading c. No using set Prayers and Psalmes Answ Were there no set Psalmes in those dayes were those Psalmes Hymmes and spirituall songs which the Church at Ephesus and at Colosse and all the Churches did sing inspired by the spirit And were no scripture Psalmes sung in those times That will be a strengthening to them that doubt of the singing of Davids Psalmes As for prayers is there a necessity now of a Forme because extraordinary gifts are ceased May not an ordinary gift be sufficiently helpfull to put up prayers by We would thinke it should now be unseasonable to plead for set formes of prayer 6. The Apostles had the care of all the Churches and without difference taught and baptized and ordered matters in all Churches where they came now we may not expect such Officers but must be content with ordinary Elders amongst whom so much of their power as God intended to be perpetuall ●s divided Answ But if there be an universall visible governing Church which you plead for the Elders of it must have care of all the Churches and must Preach Baptize and rule where ever they come And the representative oecumenicall Church or Counsell consists of such Elders that every of them must have care of all the Churches Where then is the difference according to your principles betwixt the Apostles and such Elders in that matter And whether the Brethren do not share in some of their power you know is under controversie 7. There were then some extraordinary occasionall precepts and practises which binde not in ordinary as selling all to give to the poore Mat. 19. 21. having all things common Act. 2. 44 45. 4. 32. 3● 35. Answ Selling all and giving to the poore was never a precept nor

abound more and more with you and with Your loving Brethren Sam. Eaton Tim. Taylor COncerning your questions whereto you require rationall and scripturall answers you have beene so insatiable in the multiplication of them as that you have made your demand irrationall to rationall men If seven or eight questions may well exercise an Assembly of men some weekes perhaps monthes to give scripturall and rationall answers to them how long may one or two be exercised in answering one hundred and twelve questions Yet we shall say somewhat to them and give our sense of them the better to be excused with the Reader though we give not at present a direct scripturall answer to any of them 1. Your questions are reduceable to these heads Some of them are either in whole or in part answered already in our defence as Q. 11. 24. 30 31. 35 36. 38. 41 42 43. 48 49. 52. 56. 73. 77 78. 84 85. 102 103. 2. Some of them are bottomed upon mistakes of things asserted to be held by us which yet we hold not as 19 20 21 22. 39. 44. 50 51. 56 57 58. 61. 80. 3. Some of them do arise and proceed ex non concessis from things taken for granted which yet we cannot grant as 23. 29. 32. 84. 4. Some of them are de non negatis of things which we grant and yeeld as well as you wherein you and we doe agree or else they are de negatis of thi●gs which both you and we do alike deny as 55. 86 87. 91. 96 97 98 99 100. 102 103. 5. Some of them are in the nature of them deep censures full of calumny slander both of our way persons as 1 2 3 4 5 6. 10. 15. 37. 41. 45. 49. 57 78. 83. 88. 104. 10● 6. Some of them savour of a bitter distempered spirit and tend to incense the Magistrate against us as 57. 96. 106 107 108 109 110 111 112. 7. Some of them seeme to be dubious questions proceeding from a troubled spirit that either we have Auditors to heare us preach or any maintenance from any beside them of our owne way as 77. 79. 84. 8. Some of them are entrapping questions and in them there is aliquid latens some thing that appeares not and you watch for advantage as 76. 81. 82. 9. One of them in a superfluous Parenthesis gibes at the language of many godly knowne Christians who yet are able to justifie their expressions viz. 46. 10. One of them is a question concluding with a vaine-glorious chalenge viz. 100. 11. Some of them are such as that many of the Brethren of the Presbyterian judgement doe agree with us in them and we may referre you to them to answer them as 46. 71. 12. One of them is rather a point controverted among your selves then betwixt you and us viz. 90. 13. Some of them are impertinent and come not up to the controversie betwixt us as 16. 17. 18. 44. 54. and same others 14. Some of them are unnecessary questions because the answering of some one would cut off and make voide the necessitie of propounding and answering of the rest of that nature as the answering of the 7. would prevent the propounding of the 8. 10. 13 14. the answreing of the 11. would make the 9. and 12. uselesse So the answering of 63. makes vaine the propounding of 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. 64. 65. 66. 68. and so of others 15. The most of them are argumentative and do dispute against the thing and sometimes conclude peremptory rather then propound and inquire after the thing of which yet in forme of words there is a question made By all which it arpeares how many of this great multitude of Questions might have beene spared and how little reason we have to answer them Had you not done more commendably if you had propounded some one Question of a kind as namely one about constitution of Churches one about gathering out of many Churches one about the qualification of Members one about an universall visible governing Church one about diversity of Congregations in those City Churches mentioned in Scripture one about the entity and power of an incompleate Church that hath no Officers one about the Covenant and of what Covenant Baptisme is the seale one about the power of the Keyes one about Ordination one about Communion of Officers one about maintenance of Officers one about a private mans exercising his gifts one about withdrawing from communion of ones own Church Ministry and Ordinances one about the externalls of discipline whether they be contained determinately in the New Testament one about the lawfulnesse of tolerating another way then what is by Law established and yet it vvould have been unseasonable to have propounded some of these till the answers vve have given to them already in our Defence have beene rendred invalid and all these would not have amounted to above 15. Questions vvhat then vvould have become of your many scores But your designe vvas under the forme of sundry Questions to assault us vvith sundry Arguments for very many of your Questions yea the most of them are arguments which if we confute and overthrow though your greatest strength be put forth in them yet you come off with honour you asserted nothing positively but propounded only Questions if we confute them not nor answer them clearly we receive as you imagine a blot thereby such cunning there is in the vvay of your proceeding But vve rather choose to put you upon it to state the Question vvith us and then to forme your Argument and vve shall vvillingly ingage our selves then in answering of you this is to set our selves upon equall ground vvith you and you cannot and we hope the Reader vvill not expect fairer proceedings from us Notwithstanding if you like not this vvaite but a vvhile till this present controversie be issued betwixt us and if others in the intrim doe not we shall probably be at leasure to undertake the particular answer of them in the forme they are presented to us FINIS