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power_n act_n church_n elder_n 2,749 5 9.8945 5 false
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A91654 A reply of two of the brethren to A.S. wherein you have observations on his considerations, annotations, &c. Upon the apologeticall narration. With a plea for libertie of conscience for the apologists church way; against the cavils of the said A. S. formerly called M. S. to A. S. Humbly submitted to the judgements of all rationall, and moderate men in the world. With a short survey of W. R. his Grave confutation of the separation, and some modest, and innocent touches on the letter from Zeland, and Mr. Parker's from New-England. Parker, Thomas, 1595-1677.; Steuart, Adam. 1644 (1644) Wing R1048B; Thomason E54_18; ESTC R2612 108,370 124

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where_o there_o be_v no_o superior_a or_o inferior_a there_o can_v be_v no_o obedience_n or_o disobedience_n non_fw-fr buc_fw-fr non_fw-la illuc_fw-la exemplo_fw-la nubis_fw-la aquosae_fw-la 2._o if_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n have_v power_n to_o command_v the_o church_n to_o revise_v her_o judgement_n when_o she_o judge_v any_o thing_n amiss_o 7._o sect._n 7._o sure_o he_o have_v power_n to_o examine_v and_o judge_v of_o her_o proceed_n whether_o they_o be_v regular_a equal_a and_o just_a or_o no_o except_o you_o will_v say_v that_o he_o come_v to_o the_o knowledge_n of_o your_o itregular_a and_o undue_a proceed_n in_o your_o presbytery_n by_o immediate_a revelation_n suppose_v either_o the_o one_o or_o the_o other_o what_o reason_n have_v you_o to_o deny_v he_o part_n and_o fellowship_n with_o you_o in_o that_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n which_o you_o engross_v and_o appropriate_v to_o yourselves_o as_o we_o have_v former_o see_v 3._o if_o so_o than_o your_o 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of_o christ_n within_o his_o jurisdiction_n or_o dominion_n as_o he_o can_v have_v if_o he_o be_v true_o christian_n do_v act_n of_o justice_n bounty_n grace_n towards_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n any_o whit_n more_o defile_v a_o magistrate_n how_o far_o from_o true_o christian_n soever_o then_o act_v of_o the_o same_o nature_n perform_v unto_o his_o other_o subject_n the_o king_n and_o those_o that_o be_v in_o authority_n in_o paul_n day_n be_v general_o all_o the_o king_n without_o exception_n far_o from_o be_v true_o christian_n and_o yet_o be_v it_o not_o lawful_a for_o they_o to_o interpose_v with_o their_o authority_n or_o power_n that_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n in_o their_o dominion_n may_v lead_v a_o quiet_a and_o peaceable_a life_n in_o all_o godliness_n and_o honesty_n if_o not_o then_o be_v that_o exhortation_n of_o he_o 1_o tim._n 2.2_o to_o be_v lay_v up_o in_o lavender_n for_o some_o hundred_o of_o year_n after_o it_o be_v give_v or_o else_o the_o benefit_n and_o blessing_n the_o obtain_n whereof_o by_o prayer_n be_v make_v the_o ground_n of_o the_o exhortation_n must_v have_v be_v make_v over_o in_o the_o intention_n of_o those_o that_o have_v so_o pray_v unto_o their_o posterity_n after_o many_o generation_n a._n s._n may_v choose_v which_o of_o the_o two_o he_o will_v believe_v for_o my_o part_n i_o shall_v not_o be_v his_o corrival_n in_o either_o you_o have_v hear_v a._n s._n his_o distinction_n for_o a_o coercive_a power_n about_o the_o church_n in_o a_o civil_a magistrate_n demonstrationes_fw-la autem_fw-la ubi_fw-la but_o where_o be_v his_o proof_n quas_fw-la non_fw-la invenio_fw-la usquam_fw-la esse_fw-la puto_fw-la nusquam_fw-la what_o i_o find_v not_o any_o where_n i_o believe_v to_o be_v no_o where_o i_o have_v search_v 16._o sect._n 16._o and_o that_o somewhat_o narrow_o throughout_o the_o whole_a volume_n of_o his_o discourse_n to_o find_v something_o that_o with_o any_o indulgence_n of_o imagination_n may_v be_v
desire_n etc._n etc._n for_o any_o thing_n i_o can_v see_v you_o seem_v no_o way_n mind_v to_o submit_v yourselves_o to_o they_o m._n s._n i_o be_o sorry_a your_o eye_n shall_v be_v so_o dim_a or_o yourself_o so_o to_o dote_v all_o indifferent_a man_n can_v see_v in_o the_o apology_n abundance_n of_o propensitie_n to_o submit_v to_o they_o according_a to_o truth_n far_o more_o than_o there_o be_v in_o one_o a._n s._n to_o submit_v to_o five_o minister_n who_o holiness_n you_o admire_v and_o who_o learning_n you_o extol_v a._n s._n you_o be_v divine_n you_o shall_v rather_o first_o have_v consult_v with_o the_o assembly_n of_o divine_n your_o brethren_n than_o so_o ex_fw-la abrupto_fw-la go_v to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n that_o arrogate_v not_o to_o himself_o any_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n this_o be_v more_o convenient_a to_o the_o spirit_n and_o power_n of_o godliness_n that_o the_o spirit_n of_o the_o prophet_n in_o such_o matter_n shall_v be_v subject_a to_o the_o prophet_n then_o unto_o the_o spirit_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n m._n s._n mark_v how_o this_o fellow_n a._n s._n 1._o suppose_v it_o arrogancy_n in_o the_o parliament_n to_o have_v any_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n in_o case_n the_o assembly_n which_o god_n forbid_v shall_v mistake_v sure_o by_o this_o bold_a expression_n he_o will_v not_o have_v the_o parliament_n judge_v of_o the_o reason_n of_o the_o assembly_n in_o case_n of_o dissent_n lest_o of_o all_o do_v a._n s._n consider_v that_o the_o parliament_n be_v member_n of_o many_o excellent_a church_n that_o they_o lay_v down_o the_o common_a prayer_n book_n in_o their_o house_n before_o some_o presbyterian_o can_v see_v reason_n to_o do_v so_o that_o the_o parliament_n so_o look_v on_o the_o assembly_n choose_v by_o they_o as_o not_o to_o take_v thing_n mere_o upon_o trust_n but_o see_v with_o their_o own_o eye_n 2._o he_o dream_o suppose_v that_o either_o our_o assembly_n be_v like_o the_o assembly_n of_o scotland_n for_o breadth_n and_o strength_n or_o else_o he_o take_v they_o for_o a_o church_n and_o in_o the_o act_n of_o prophesy_v which_o last_o i_o wonder_v a._n s._n be_v a_o rank_a presbyterian_a shall_v in_o the_o least_o allow_v of_o and_o call_v the_o five_o minister_n to_o the_o rule_n thereof_o 3._o a._n s._n suppose_v that_o it_o be_v less_o convenient_a to_o the_o power_n of_o godliness_n for_o the_o wrong_v five_o minister_n to_o appeal_v to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n in_o parliament_n 4._o a._n s._n suppose_v that_o because_o the_o parliament_n have_v choose_v the_o assembly_n that_o therefore_o some_o man_n in_o some_o case_n at_o least_o shall_v wave_v the_o parliament_n and_o go_v to_o the_o assembly_n this_o be_v a._n s._n his_o fine_a intimation_n prompt_v to_o all_o scandalous_a and_o false_a teach_v erroneous_a minister_n to_o take_v up_o and_o learn_v in_o their_o case_n relate_v to_o religion_n to_o wave_v the_o parliament_n and_o to_o go_v to_o the_o assembly_n 5._o a._n s._n suppose_v that_o the_o assembly_n will_v be_v so_o unwise_a see_v what_o a_o silly_a fellow_n a._n s._n be_v as_o to_o go_v beyond_o their_o ordinance_n to_o judge_v one_o another_o when_o as_o they_o will_v take_v upon_o they_o no_o such_o thing_n not_o so_o much_o as_o to_o cast_v out_o or_o take_v in_o one_o member_n without_o the_o parliament_n much_o less_o will_v they_o judge_v person_n that_o shall_v wrong_v the_o five_o minister_n that_o be_v not_o of_o the_o assembly_n the_o rest_n of_o his_o annotation_n on_o the_o inscription_n be_v but_o mere_a paper_n blot_v and_o therefore_o i_o omit_v they_o a_o preface_n to_o the_o reader_n by_o way_n of_o introduction_n to_o the_o ensue_a part_n of_o the_o discourse_n which_o respect_v the_o book_n itself_o reader_n have_v diligent_o peruse_v the_o cacologeticall_a or_o rough_a commentary_n of_o a._n s._n upon_o the_o smooth_a apologetical_a narration_n of_o the_o five_o minister_n i_o find_v the_o great_a difficulty_n that_o he_o be_v like_a to_o encounter_v who_o by_o a_o sober_a answer_n shall_v desire_v to_o make_v the_o world_n amends_o for_o that_o injury_n which_o that_o writing_n have_v do_v it_o be_v this_o how_o to_o make_v his_o answer_n soft_a '_o enough_o for_o the_o truth_n be_v that_o here_o be_v much_o more_o anger_n or_o passion_n than_o reason_n to_o turn_v away_o and_o the_o wiseman_n inform_v we_o that_o it_o be_v a_o soft_a answer_n that_o turn_v away_o wrath_n prov._n 15.1_o if_o a._n s._n can_v be_v but_o redeem_v out_o of_o the_o hand_n of_o that_o great_a jealousy_n wherewith_o he_o burn_v over_o his_o present_a apprehension_n in_o re_fw-mi presbyterali_fw-la though_o all_o the_o argument_n and_o strength_n of_o discourse_n wherewith_o his_o judgement_n be_v support_v therein_o be_v leave_v entire_a to_o he_o he_o will_v be_v find_v in_o a_o sufficient_a posture_n himself_o to_o do_v himself_o the_o right_n of_o give_v satisfaction_n unto_o the_o world_n for_o the_o wrong_n he_o have_v do_v it_o in_o that_o discourse_n and_o to_o make_v his_o atonement_n with_o his_o own_o pen._n though_o in_o many_o case_n anger_n be_v able_a to_o do_v more_o than_o reason_n can_v undo_v yet_o in_o matter_n of_o argument_n or_o writing_n the_o little_a finger_n of_o a_o man_n reason_n be_v common_o able_a to_o pull_v down_o what_o the_o loin_n of_o his_o passion_n have_v in_o a_o tumultuary_a way_n and_o method_n build_v up_o any_o man_n that_o shall_v but_o diligent_o observe_v the_o endless_a variety_n and_o multitude_n of_o keen_a expostulation_n imperious_a interrogation_n the_o importune_a peremptory_a and_o insult_a charge_n crimination_n and_o aspersion_n the_o wriggling_n wring_n wrest_n wrangling_n the_o straining_n stretching_n stinging_n stingling_n the_o captious_a crooked_a and_o cross-grained_a interpretation_n of_o thing_n wherewith_o that_o piece_n be_v farce_v in_o a_o unreasonable_a proportion_n to_o the_o bulk_n of_o it_o can_v light_o but_o conclude_v that_o indignation_n be_v the_o chief_a oracle_n consult_v with_o about_o the_o frame_n of_o it_o but_o because_o i_o will_v willing_o decline_v all_o occasion_n of_o heat_n and_o recrimination_n as_o far_o as_o a_o sober_a and_o just_a vindication_n not_o so_o much_o of_o the_o person_n as_o of_o the_o cause_n so_o evill-intreated_n therein_o will_v bear_v i_o shall_v chief_o confer_v with_o a._n s._n about_o his_o real_n and_o leave_v man_n of_o common_a civility_n to_o determine_v and_o judge_v of_o his_o personal_n unless_o possible_o somewhat_o in_o this_o kind_n shall_v now_o and_o then_o occasional_o fall_v in_o i_o make_v no_o question_n but_o that_o the_o apologist_n will_v be_v well_o able_a to_o bear_v it_o that_o the_o cause_n which_o they_o maintain_v shall_v have_v the_o preeminence_n of_o their_o person_n in_o point_n of_o defence_n nor_o be_v they_o so_o scant_v in_o the_o consciousness_n of_o their_o own_o worth_n and_o innocence_n but_o that_o they_o be_v very_o well_o able_a to_o be_v out_o and_o bear_v the_o want_n of_o so_o much_o of_o their_o reputation_n for_o a_o time_n as_o the_o observation_n and_o annotation_n of_o i_o know_v not_o who_o have_v unjust_o take_v from_o they_o especial_o in_o case_n they_o shall_v see_v it_o bestow_v by_o their_o friend_n upon_o the_o accommodation_n of_o that_o honourable_a cause_n wherein_o they_o be_v engage_v and_o declare_v since_o the_o former_a impression_n of_o this_o discourse_n i_o perceive_v there_o be_v yet_o more_o anger_n and_o indignation_n break_v forth_o into_o the_o world_n against_o that_o harmless_a gall-less_a and_o dovelike_a apologetical_a narration_n concern_v which_o that_o may_v be_v true_o say_v though_o in_o a_o different_a sense_n which_o ausonius_n say_v of_o none_o of_o the_o worst_a emperor_n in_o his_o epitaph_n etc._n marcus_n antonius_n auson_n de_fw-fr duodecim_fw-la caesaribus_fw-la etc._n etc._n hoc_fw-la solo_fw-la patriae_fw-la quòd_fw-la genuit_fw-la nocuit_fw-la all_o the_o harm_n it_o have_v do_v to_o the_o world_n or_o its_o country_n only_o be_v this_o it_o have_v beget_v and_o that_o not_o in_o its_o own_o likeness_n child_n of_o sweet_a sober_a and_o temperate_a spirit_n 29._o aelian_a lib._n 1._o cap._n 29._o but_o rough_a bluster_a borean_a observation_n and_o annotation_n ghastly_a anatomy_n with_o some_o such_o other_o heterogeneal_a fiery_a impression_n aelian_a make_n report_v of_o a_o strange_a prodigy_n once_o happen_v in_o a_o grecian_a island_n viz._n that_o a_o sheep_n bring_v forth_o a_o lion_n this_o lion_n bring_v forth_o with_o this_o remarkable_a and_o eminent_a contrariety_n to_o the_o course_n of_o nature_n presage_v as_o the_o same_o author_n relate_v tyranny_n i_o have_v much_o rather_o be_v a_o benefactor_n to_o the_o world_n by_o the_o communication_n of_o my_o hope_n to_o it_o when_o i_o have_v any_o that_o may_v befriend_v it_o then_o to_o draw_v
from_o the_o old_a or_o new_a testament_n but_o he_o shall_v have_v do_v more_o ingenuous_o to_o have_v add_v no_o nor_o yet_o any_o material_a or_o implicit_a pattern_n neither_o for_o if_o he_o have_v any_o material_a pattern_n it_o be_v so_o pure_o material_a that_o it_o may_v contend_v with_o materia_fw-la prima_fw-la itself_o for_o the_o prize_n of_o invisibilitie_n if_o he_o have_v any_o implicit_a it_o be_v wrap_v up_o under_o so_o many_o fold_n and_o plight_n of_o obscurity_n that_o no_o see_v eye_n be_v able_a to_o pierce_v through_o to_o it_o but_o do_v we_o not_o give_v sentence_n too_o soon_o it_o may_v be_v his_o pattern_n from_o the_o new_a testament_n will_v carry_v it_o though_o that_o from_o the_o old_a refuse_v to_o meddle_v with_o it_o but_o where_o shall_v we_o seek_v this_o he_o tell_v we_o pag._n 41._o that_o we_o may_v see_v it_o in_o the_o history_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n in_o the_o judgement_n give_v out_o at_o the_o synod_n either_o true_o or_o untrue_o so_o call_v of_o jerusalem_n concern_v the_o business_n of_o antiochia_n what_o possible_o we_o may_v see_v in_o length_n and_o time_n be_v not_o easy_a to_o determine_v for_o the_o present_a but_o i_o have_v both_o more_o hope_n and_o fear_n of_o see_v a_o thousand_o other_o thing_n which_o yet_o i_o can_v certain_o say_v that_o i_o shall_v see_v than_o i_o have_v of_o either_o ever_o to_o see_v classical_a proceed_n demonstrate_v out_o of_o that_o passage_n of_o scripture_n nor_o do_v a._n s._n so_o much_o as_o put_v forth_o his_o little_a finger_n towards_o such_o a_o demonstration_n but_o content_v himself_o for_o the_o present_a to_o threaten_v we_o with_o his_o own_o hope_n of_o see_v the_o business_n clear_o demonstrate_v to_o we_o by_o a_o better_a ●and_n ere_o long_o clear_a demonstration_n of_o any_o thing_n from_o the_o scripture_n shall_v be_v very_o welcome_a to_o we_o at_o any_o time_n but_o i_o think_v i_o see_v such_o insuperable_a difficulty_n in_o the_o way_n that_o i_o fear_v that_o demonstration_n will_v never_o come_v out_o clear_a yet_o because_o i_o will_v help_v forward_o the_o clearness_n of_o it_o what_o i_o can_v i_o shall_v make_v bold_a to_o propound_v unto_o he_o that_o either_o be_v or_o shall_v be_v the_o undertaker_n thereof_o a_o few_o particular_n which_o i_o humble_o conceive_v must_v be_v substantial_o prove_v to_o make_v the_o demonstration_n clear_a at_o least_o to_o i_o and_o many_o other_o 1._o it_o must_v be_v prove_v that_o the_o apostle_n in_o that_o meeting_n at_o jerusalem_n act_v 15.6_o sit_v there_o only_o in_o the_o capacity_n of_o ordinary_a elder_n or_o presbyter_n and_o not_o as_o apostle_n i._o that_o they_o wave_v or_o silence_v the_o spirit_n of_o infallibility_n which_o be_v give_v they_o and_o fall_v to_o work_v with_o the_o weak_a and_o fallible_a spirit_n of_o other_o man_n which_o be_v as_o if_o a_o man_n shall_v pull_v out_o his_o eye_n to_o see_v with_o the_o hole_n 2._o it_o must_v further_o be_v prove_v that_o this_o council_n at_o jerusalem_n have_v their_o state_n and_o set_v time_n of_o meeting_n as_o weekly_o monthly_a yearly_a or_o the_o like_a and_o that_o they_o do_v not_o assemble_v occasional_o only_a for_o this_o be_v one_o of_o the_o high_a character_n of_o presbytery_n by_o a._n s._n his_o own_o calculation_n pag._n 39_o 3._o it_o must_v yet_o be_v prove_v that_o they_o have_v authoritatem_fw-la citationis_fw-la a_o authoritative_a power_n to_o cite_v and_o call_v before_o they_o who_o they_o please_v with_o in_o the_o pale_a of_o apostolical_a jurisdiction_n that_o be_v within_o the_o compass_n of_o the_o whole_a world_n 4._o it_o must_v also_o be_v make_v clear_a that_o the_o apostle_n and_o elder_n that_o be_v member_n of_o this_o synod_n be_v send_v hereunto_o by_o those_o particular_a church_n over_o who_o they_o have_v right_a to_o claim_v jurisdiction_n or_o intend_v to_o include_v in_o their_o determination_n 5._o the_o demonstration_n will_v never_o be_v clear_a till_o it_o be_v substantial_o prove_v that_o there_o be_v none_o authorize_v to_o sit_v in_o that_o council_n but_o only_a church-officer_n and_o ecclesiastical_a man_n the_o contrary_a hereof_o seem_v at_o least_o very_o apparent_a from_o ver_fw-la 22._o &_o 23._o 6._o that_o likewise_o must_v not_o be_v leave_v unprove_v that_o this_o council_n have_v power_n as_o well_o to_o make_v new_a law_n of_o indifferent_a thing_n as_o to_o impose_v thing_n necessary_a upon_o the_o church_n ver_fw-la 28._o 7._o the_o demonstrator_n to_o make_v his_o work_n clear_a and_o clever_o must_v prove_v that_o the_o church_n of_o syria_n and_o cilicia_n have_v their_o commissioner_n or_o delegate_n sit_v authoritative_o in_o this_o synod_n because_o they_o be_v include_v in_o the_o determination_n ver_fw-la 23._o 8._o it_o must_v be_v prove_v likewise_o that_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n sit_v as_o commissioner_n upon_o the_o same_o term_n for_o the_o church_n of_o antioch_n in_o this_o synod_n 9_o it_o must_v be_v make_v to_o appear_v either_o that_o this_o synod_n or_o council_n will_v have_v proceed_v as_o now_o they_o do_v whether_o they_o can_v have_v say_v it_o seem_v good_a to_o the_o holy_a ghost_n and_o to_o we_o or_o no_o or_o that_o ordinary_a synod_n or_o assembly_n may_v lawful_o proceed_v as_o they_o do_v though_o they_o have_v no_o such_o assurance_n of_o a_o concurrence_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n with_o they_o as_o they_o have_v 10._o and_o last_o proof_n must_v be_v make_v that_o those_o word_n in_o the_o close_a of_o the_o epistle_n send_v from_o this_o council_n to_o the_o respective_a church_n you_o shall_v do_v well_o ver_fw-la 29._o be_v fulminative_a &_o import_v some_o such_o threaten_a or_o intimation_n as_o this_o that_o if_o they_o do_v not_o submit_v some_o further_a course_n must_v be_v take_v with_o they_o if_o all_o these_o particular_n shall_v be_v substantial_o clear_v and_o prove_v i_o shall_v free_o acknowledge_v that_o there_o be_v a_o plausible_a pattern_n for_o a.s._n his_o government_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n but_o hic_fw-la labour_n hoc_fw-la opus_fw-la est_fw-la i_o shall_v not_o pre-judge_n any_o man_n ability_n but_o for_o the_o present_a i_o do_v as_o much_o expect_v the_o fulfil_n of_o that_o poetical_a prophecy_n vnda_fw-la dabit_fw-la flammas_fw-la &_o dabit_fw-la ignis_fw-la aquas_fw-la as_o i_o do_v ever_o to_o see_v that_o fifteen_o of_o the_o act_n safe_o deliver_v of_o the_o manchild_n call_v presbytery_n therefore_o a._n s._n must_v pardon_v we_o if_o as_o yet_o we_o be_v not_o able_a to_o see_v any_o pattern_n at_o all_o of_o his_o government_n neither_o formal_a nor_o material_a neither_o explicit_a nor_o implicit_a either_o in_o the_o old_a or_o new_a testament_n well_o but_o yet_o the_o man_n have_v one_o string_n to_o his_o bow_n more_o though_o grace_n will_v not_o relieve_v he_o it_o may_v be_v nature_n will_n he_o have_v as_o he_o say_v a_o pattern_n in_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n which_o will_v suffice_v they_o must_v i_o believe_v have_v very_o good_a appetite_n to_o presbytery_n that_o will_v be_v suffice_v with_o this_o pattern_n the_o law_n of_o nature_n be_v a_o very_a vast_a volume_n and_o a._n s._n have_v not_o quote_v either_o page_n leaf_n or_o section_n of_o the_o book_n so_o that_o i_o know_v not_o whither_o to_o turn_v or_o where_o to_o look_v for_o his_o pattern_n but_o i_o think_v the_o man_n himself_o have_v give_v ample_a testimony_n to_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n that_o it_o be_v no_o way_n guilty_a of_o or_o accessary_a to_o his_o presbyterian_a government_n for_o that_o which_o can_v be_v make_v out_o to_o the_o judgement_n and_o conscience_n of_o man_n without_o the_o help_n of_o such_o a_o host_n of_o scholastic_a intricate_a if_o not_o inexplicable_a distinction_n as_o a._n s._n be_v fain_o to_o leafy_a and_o muster_v together_o p._n 29._o 30._o 31._o 32._o etc._n etc._n before_o he_o can_v make_v either_o h●ad_a or_o foot_n of_o his_o 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