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put_v it_o in_o every_o city_n which_o we_o affirm_v not_o nor_o need_v not_o to_o carry_v the_o cause_n against_o you_o for_o if_o we_o can_v prove_v it_o in_o some_o city_n or_o in_o any_o city_n that_o the_o number_n of_o convert_v do_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o to_o make_v several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n than_o we_o prove_v the_o scripture_n hold_v out_o a_o presbyterial_a classical_a church_n and_o overthrow_v your_o grand_a principle_n about_o a_o particular_a church_n and_o reader_n observe_v the_o fallacy_n of_o these_o apologist_n how_o in_o the_o manner_n of_o their_o expression_n and_o as_o they_o propound_v it_o though_o the_o thing_n may_v be_v true_a yet_o they_o alter_v quite_o the_o state_n of_o the_o question_n for_o though_o in_o every_o city_n where_o the_o apostle_n come_v you_o can_v not_o imagine_v the_o number_n of_o convert_v shall_v be_v so_o great_a nor_o we_o neither_o yet_o in_o some_o city_n you_o may_v have_v well_o imagine_v it_o 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the_o law_n of_o nature_n and_o of_o prudence_n yea_o and_o may_v have_v some_o example_n of_o it_o and_o yet_o not_o amount_v to_o a_o divine_a institution_n many_o who_o hold_v the_o thing_n will_v not_o in_o those_o phrase_n own_o it_o 2._o these_o elder_n of_o many_o congregation_n may_v have_v a_o power_n of_o government_n in_o common_a over_o all_o and_o yet_o not_o be_v the_o first_o seat_n of_o church-power_n for_o it_o be_v not_o deny_v but_o some_o particular_a congregation_n have_v a_o competent_a number_n of_o presbyter_n both_o have_v and_o may_v exercise_v church-power_n before_o any_o such_o combination_n be_v or_o can_v be_v 3._o these_o elder_n combine_v may_v have_v church-power_n to_o rule_v these_o congregation_n so_o combine_v and_o yet_o not_o have_v a_o complete_a and_o entire_a seat_n of_o church-power_n but_o a_o power_n liable_a to_o appeal_n unto_o synod_n and_o general_a assembly_n the_o question_n between_o you_o and_o we_o be_v whether_o class_n or_o 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their_o officer_n over_o particular_a member_n as_o in_o the_o parliament_n no_o member_n have_v power_n over_o another_o more_o than_o another_o over_o he_o but_o the_o whole_n have_v power_n over_o all_o the_o particular_n for_o the_o clear_n of_o which_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n speak_v full_o in_o their_o reformation_n of_o church_n government_n in_o scotland_n clear_v page_n 24_o 25._o and_o for_o the_o close_a of_o this_o second_o head_n wherein_o you_o stand_v upon_o what_o you_o be_v not_o satisfy_v in_o but_o disallow_v if_o you_o will_v impartial_o consider_v that_o the_o scripture_n in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o apostle_n and_o epistle_n do_v as_o well_o hold_v out_o ground_n yea_o and_o more_o indubitable_a as_o i_o shall_v make_v evident_a in_o a_o particular_a tractate_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n that_o the_o first_o particular_a church_n plant_v by_o the_o apostle_n consist_v of_o more_o congregation_n and_o distinct_a meet_v place_n then_o of_o one_o only_a congregation_n you_o will_v acknowledge_v that_o where_o there_o be_v many_o presbyter_n to_o feed_v and_o rule_v and_o many_o more_o christian_n live_v in_o a_o vicinity_n then_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n it_o be_v not_o the_o most_o safe_a and_o allow_a way_n to_o retain_v the_o government_n of_o each_o congregation_n thus_o within_o themselves_o neither_o that_o it_o be_v a_o additament_n in_o the_o reform_a church_n to_o practice_v so_o but_o rather_o a_o additament_n on_o their_o part_n who_o live_v in_o a_o city_n where_o the_o number_n of_o believer_n be_v so_o numerous_a as_o to_o make_v many_o meet_v place_n there_o to_o make_v these_o place_n and_o person_n such_o distinct_a church_n as_o to_o manage_v all_o thing_n each_o one_o within_o themselves_o and_o not_o to_o grow_v into_o one_o for_o government_n and_o i_o be_o so_o far_o verse_v in_o these_o controversy_n that_o i_o challenge_v you_o five_o to_o give_v i_o a_o example_n of_o any_o 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those_o congregation_n in_o all_o weighty_a matter_n and_o great_a case_n that_o fall_v out_o those_o precept_n of_o obey_v your_o elder_n and_o they_o that_o be_v over_o you_o reach_v to_o all_o the_o elder_n as_o well_o as_o to_o those_o that_o particular_o and_o ordinary_o preach_v to_o they_o and_o however_o it_o be_v true_a such_o place_n be_v especial_o understand_v of_o they_o yet_o not_o of_o they_o only_o and_o alone_o as_o exclude_v other_o as_o your_o argument_n carry_v it_o but_z including_z other_o who_o be_v over_o they_o too_o and_o to_o answer_v you_o by_o your_o own_o instance_n give_v of_o servant_n obey_v your_o own_o governor_n as_o by_o virtue_n of_o that_o text_n particular_a servant_n be_v to_o obey_v their_o own_o master_n so_o by_o the_o same_o text_n each_o particular_a servant_n and_o all_o of_o they_o together_o of_o such_o a_o company_n and_o hall_n in_o the_o thing_n and_o rule_n of_o their_o call_n for_o the_o public_a good_a of_o that_o society_n they_o be_v to_o obey_v and_o be_v subject_a to_o the_o whole_a company_n namely_o the_o particular_a master_n of_o other_o servant_n as_o to_o their_o own_o master_n yea_o and_o to_o submit_v to_o the_o common_a order_n and_o good_a rule_n of_o such_o a_o hall_n and_o corporation_n though_o their_o particular_a master_n do_v not_o vote_n for_o but_o against_o they_o 3._o those_o ruler_n who_o be_v of_o the_o presbytery_n be_v not_o foreign_a nor_o extrinsicall_a to_o the_o congregation_n but_o intrinsicall_a and_o natural_a as_o well_o as_o their_o particular_a elder_n so_o that_o another_o without_o themselves_o do_v not_o bear_v rule_n over_o they_o but_o all_o of_o they_o together_o by_o common_a consent_n do_v rule_v every_o one_o which_o be_v a_o most_o mild_a and_o free_a form_n of_o church_n government_n for_o the_o proof_n of_o which_o i_o shall_v not_o enlarge_v but_o refer_v you_o for_o satisfaction_n to_o what_o be_v say_v to_o this_o point_n both_o by_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n and_o by_o some_o church_n from_o beyond_o the_o 25._o sea_n in_o their_o letter_n upon_o occasion_n of_o your_o apology_n 4._o it_o be_v a_o fallacious_a way_n of_o reason_v from_o the_o economical_a relation_n and_o government_n of_o husband_n over_o wife_n and_o father_n over_o child_n and_o master_n over_o servant_n and_o their_o subjection_n and_o obedience_n to_o husband_n etc._n etc._n unto_o the_o ecclesiastical_a and_o political_a because_o it_o be_v not_o to_o speak_v ad_fw-la idem_fw-la for_o in_o each_o of_o these_o the_o way_n of_o government_n be_v different_a for_o instance_n in_o those_o economical_a relation_n a_o woman_n can_v have_v but_o one_o husband_n one_o man_n can_v be_v but_o her_o husband_n and_o one_o man_n a_o father_n and_o the_o wife_n and_o child_n can_v pelinquish_v they_o diâ—…avow_v they_o though_o very_o bad_a nor_o deny_v those_o duty_n they_o owe_v they_o in_o those_o relation_n though_o censure_v by_o the_o church_n but_o they_o be_v to_o obey_v they_o which_o yet_o hold_v not_o in_o the_o member_n of_o a_o particular_a congregation_n to_o elder_n and_o minister_n that_o be_v unworthy_a and_o excommunicate_v that_o the_o member_n must_v be_v subject_a to_o they_o the_o royalist_n that_o argue_v so_o from_o that_o subjection_n and_o obedience_n which_o child_n owe_v their_o father_n to_o subject_n subjection_n and_o obedience_n to_o prince_n and_o the_o hierarchicall_a man_n that_o argue_v from_o what_o child_n owe_v to_o natural_a parent_n though_o wicked_a and_o ungodly_a to_o what_o the_o people_n owe_v to_o wicked_a minister_n be_v answer_v at_o large_a and_o you_o know_v what_o mr_n robinson_n and_o many_o of_o your_o way_n say_v to_o that_o now_o the_o same_o will_v serve_v to_o answer_v your_o comparison_n that_o the_o place_n hold_v not_o alike_o between_o the_o people_n and_o the_o elder_n and_o the_o wife_n and_o their_o husband_n mr_n baynes_n answer_v in_o the_o last_o page_n of_o his_o diocesan_n trial_n that_o which_o be_v object_v touch_v pastor_n and_o father_n that_o the_o similitude_n hold_v not_o in_o all_o thing_n parent_n and_o shepherd_n be_v absolute_o parent_n and_o shepherd_n be_v they_o good_a or_o evil_a but_o spiritual_a parent_n be_v no_o long_o so_o than_o they_o do_v according_o behave_v themselves_o 5._o the_o very_a instance_n you_o give_v of_o wife_n obey_v your_o own_o husband_n and_o servant_n your_o own_o governor_n do_v not_o therefore_o only_o tie_v they_o to_o civil_a subjection_n and_o obedience_n to_o husband_n and_o master_n exempt_n they_o from_o subjection_n to_o any_o other_o but_o they_o be_v subject_a to_o the_o magistrate_n in_o the_o commonwealth_n and_o to_o common-lawe_n notwithstanding_o so_o neither_o do_v the_o scripture_n obey_v your_o elder_n etc._n etc._n suppose_v the_o full_a latitude_n of_o those_o scripture_n be_v of_o the_o elder_n of_o particular_a congregation_n forbid_v or_o exempt_a man_n from_o that_o ecclesiastical_a subjection_n and_o obedience_n which_o concern_v they_o as_o they_o stand_v in_o relation_n to_o the_o community_n to_o the_o three_o reason_n hint_v for_o yourselves_o and_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n that_o the_o elder_n of_o other_o congregation_n shall_v have_v power_n and_o rule_v over_o church_n which_o they_o do_v not_o teach_v and_o feed_v ordinary_o by_o virtue_n of_o those_o forementioned_a precept_n be_v to_o you_o a_o question_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v suppose_v three_o or_o four_o congregation_n in_o one_o great_a town_n shall_v have_v minister_n in_o common_a to_o teach_v and_o feed_v they_o ordinary_o as_o in_o holland_n will_v you_o in_o such_o a_o case_n yield_v to_o a_o presbyterial_a combination_n if_o you_o say_v you_o will_v than_o the_o case_n be_v determine_v for_o we_o and_o thus_o i_o judge_v it_o be_v in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o apostle_n in_o primitive_a church_n but_o if_o you_o answer_v you_o will_v not_o yield_v to_o such_o a_o classical_a government_n than_o i_o reply_v it_o be_v not_o for_o want_v of_o such_o minister_n teach_v you_o and_o feed_v ordinary_o that_o you_o will_v not_o obey_v but_o upon_o some_o other_o ground_n and_o then_o this_o argument_n be_v lose_v second_o i_o answer_v your_o roll_a elder_n do_v not_o feed_v nor_o teach_v you_o ordinary_o but_o only_o govern_v you_o and_o yet_o by_o virtue_n of_o those_o forementioned_a precept_n you_o obey_v they_o and_o be_v subject_a to_o they_o so_o that_o this_o be_v no_o good_a argument_n against_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o have_v power_n and_o authority_n over_o those_o who_o man_n teach_v not_o ordinary_o for_o than_o what_o become_v of_o the_o rule_v elder_n in_o the_o church_n who_o be_v neither_o pastor_n nor_o teacher_n to_o the_o four_o reason_n draw_v from_o corporation_n who_o have_v the_o power_n and_o privilege_n of_o life_n and_o death_n within_o themselves_o which_o kind_n of_o power_n you_o will_v have_v i_o answer_v you_o can_v frame_v a_o good_a argunment_n from_o corporation_n and_o civil_a power_n to_o body_n ecclesiastical_a and_o spiritual_a power_n and_o i_o may_v give_v you_o the_o many_o difference_n allege_v by_o yourselves_o between_o civil_a power_n and_o ecclesiastical_a and_o the_o different_a manner_n of_o dispensation_n but_o i_o must_v not_o enlarge_v here_o only_o refer_v you_o for_o this_o to_o separat_fw-la mr_n robinson_n church_n mr_n burrough_n and_o theol._n dr_n ames_n 2._o corporation_n go_v according_a to_o the_o law_n of_o the_o land_n and_o to_o their_o charter_n agree_v upon_o and_o make_v in_o parliament_n they_o make_v not_o themselves_o a_o corporation_n nor_o go_v not_o according_a to_o private_a rule_n and_o order_n to_o pass_v sentence_n of_o death_n etc._n etc._n but_o be_v rule_v though_o they_o have_v officer_n as_o major_a and_o alderman_n by_o the_o law_n of_o the_o land_n and_o so_o go_v they_o may_v more_o safe_o have_v a_o power_n within_o themselves_o but_o your_o particular_a congregation_n set_v up_o yourselves_o without_o leave_n of_o magistrate_n or_o minister_n not_o proceed_v upon_o common_a rule_n of_o government_n in_o sentence_n of_o excommunication_n etc._n etc._n agree_v by_o synod_n but_o only_o upon_o your_o own_o will_n and_o private_a rule_n which_o you_o have_v fancy_v be_v lay_v down_o in_o scripture_n 3._o corporation_n though_o they_o judge_v their_o member_n and_o pass_v sentence_n of_o life_n and_o death_n within_o themselves_o yet_o sometime_o nay_o often_o in_o great_a case_n and_o offence_n their_o inhabitant_n be_v try_v and_o sentence_n pass_v upon_o they_o in_o other_o court_n of_o justice_n and_o that_o when_o they_o will_v proceed_v against_o they_o yet_o the_o matter_n be_v carry_v high_a to_o be_v try_v if_o you_o will_v grant_v this_o in_o the_o corporation_n to_o your_o congregation_n that_o assembly_n and_o synod_n may_v judge_v and_o pass_v sentence_n upon_o your_o member_n as_o oft_o
be_v most_o willing_a to_o have_v recourse_n unto_o for_o our_o part_n we_o see_v not_o then_o nor_o do_v yet_o see_v and_o likewise_o we_o do_v then_o suppose_v and_o do_v yet_o that_o this_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v unto_o other_o church_n offend_v together_o with_o this_o other_o that_o it_o be_v a_o command_n from_o christ_n enjoin_v to_o church_n that_o be_v final_o offend_v to_o pronounce_v such_o a_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n and_o withdraw_n from_o they_o while_o impenitent_a ac_fw-la unworthy_a to_o hold_v forth_o the_o name_n of_o christ_n these_o principle_n be_v receive_v and_o general_o acknowledge_v by_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n to_o be_v a_o mutual_a duty_n as_o strict_o enjoin_v they_o by_o christ_n as_o any_o other_o that_o these_o will_v be_v as_o effectual_a mean_n through_o the_o blessing_n of_o christ_n to_o awe_v and_o preserve_v church_n and_o their_o elder_n in_o their_o duty_n as_o that_o other_o of_o claim_n to_o a_o authoritative_a power_n ecclesiastical_a to_o excommunicate_v other_o church_n or_o their_o elder_n offend_v for_o if_o the_o one_o be_v compare_v with_o the_o other_o in_o a_o mere_a ecclesiastical_a notion_n that_o of_o excommunication_n pretend_v have_v but_o this_o more_o in_o it_o that_o it_o be_v a_o deliver_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o their_o elder_n offend_v unto_o satan_n for_o which_o we_o know_v no_o warrant_n in_o the_o scripture_n that_o church_n shall_v have_v such_o a_o power_n over_o other_o church_n and_o then_o as_o for_o the_o bind_a obligation_n both_o of_o the_o one_o way_n and_o the_o other_o it_o can_v be_v suppose_v to_o lie_v but_o in_o these_o two_o thing_n first_o in_o a_o warrant_n and_o injunction_n give_v by_o christ_n to_o his_o church_n to_o put_v either_o the_o one_o or_o the_o other_o into_o execution_n and_o second_o that_o man_n conscience_n be_v according_o take_v therewith_o so_o as_o to_o subject_v themselves_o whether_o unto_o the_o one_o 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presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v do_v but_o assist_v and_o back_o the_o sentence_n of_o other_o church_n denounce_v this_o non-communion_n against_o church_n miscarry_v according_a to_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o crime_n as_o they_o judge_v meet_v and_o as_o they_o will_v the_o sentence_n of_o church_n excommunicate_v other_o church_n in_o such_o case_n upon_o their_o own_o particular_a judgement_n of_o the_o cause_n then_o without_o all_o controversy_n this_o our_o way_n of_o church_n proceed_v will_v be_v every_o way_n as_o effectual_a as_o their_o other_o can_v be_v suppose_v to_o be_v and_o we_o be_v sure_a more_o brotherly_a and_o morâ—…_n suit_v to_o that_o liberty_n and_o equality_n christ_n have_v endow_v his_o church_n with_o but_o without_o the_o magistrate_n interpose_v their_o authority_n their_o way_n of_o proceed_v will_v be_v as_o ineffectual_a as_o we_o and_o more_o liable_a to_o contempt_n by_o how_o much_o it_o be_v pretend_v to_o be_v more_o authoritative_a and_o to_o inflict_v a_o more_o dreadful_a punishment_n which_o carnal_a spirit_n be_v seldom_o sensible_a of_o this_o for_o our_o judgement_n and_o for_o a_o real_a evidence_n and_o demonstration_n both_o that_o this_o be_v then_o our_o judgement_n as_o likewise_o for_o a_o instance_n of_o the_o effectual_a success_n of_o such_o a_o course_n hold_v by_o church_n in_o such_o case_n our_o own_o practice_n and_o the_o blessing_n of_o god_n thereon_o may_v plead_v and_o testify_v for_o we_o to_o all_o the_o world_n the_o manage_n of_o this_o transaction_n in_o brief_n be_v this_o that_o church_n which_o with_o other_o be_v most_o scandalize_v do_v by_o letter_n declare_v their_o offence_n require_v of_o the_o church_n suppose_v to_o be_v offend_v in_o the_o name_n and_o for_o the_o vindication_n of_o the_o honour_n of_o christ_n and_o the_o relieve_v the_o party_n wrong_v to_o yield_v a_o full_a and_o public_a hear_n before_o all_o the_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n or_o any_o other_o whosoever_o offend_v of_o what_o they_o can_v give_v in_o charge_n against_o their_o proceed_n in_o that_o deposition_n of_o their_o minister_n and_o to_o subject_n themselves_o to_o a_o open_a trial_n and_o review_v of_o all_o those_o forepast_a carriage_n that_o concern_v that_o particular_a which_o they_o most_o cheerful_o and_o ready_o according_a to_o the_o forementioned_a principle_n submit_v unto_o in_o a_o place_n and_o state_n where_o no_o outward_a violence_n or_o any_o other_o external_a authority_n either_o civil_a or_o ecclesiastical_a will_v have_v enforce_v they_o thereunto_o and_o according_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n offend_v with_o other_o two_o gentleman_n of_o much_o worth_n wisdom_n and_o piety_n member_n thereof_o be_v send_v as_o messenger_n from_o that_o church_n and_o at_o the_o introduction_n and_o entrance_v into_o that_o solemn_a assembly_n the_o solemnity_n of_o which_o have_v leave_v as_o deep_a a_o impression_n upon_o our_o heart_n of_o christ_n dreadful_a presence_n as_o ever_o any_o we_o have_v be_v present_a at_o it_o be_v open_o and_o public_o process_v in_o a_o speech_n that_o be_v the_o preface_n to_o that_o discussion_n to_o this_o effect_n that_o it_o be_v the_o most_o to_o be_v abhor_v maxim_n that_o any_o religion_n have_v ever_o make_v profession_n of_o and_o therefore_o of_o all_o other_o the_o most_o contradictory_n and_o dishonourable_a unto_o that_o of_o christianity_n that_o a_o single_a and_o particular_a society_n of_o man_n profess_v the_o name_n of_o christ_n and_o pretend_v to_o be_v endow_v with_o a_o power_n from_o christ_n to_o judge_v they_o that_o be_v of_o the_o same_o body_n and_o society_n within_o themselves_o shall_v further_o arrogate_v unto_o themselves_o a_o exemption_n from_o give_v account_n or_o be_v censurable_a by_o any_o other_o either_o christian_a magistrate_n above_o they_o or_o neighbour_n church_n about_o they_o so_o far_o be_v our_o judgement_n from_o that_o independent_a liberty_n that_o be_v impute_v to_o we_o then_o when_o we_o have_v least_o dependency_n on_o this_o kingdom_n or_o so_o much_o as_o hope_n ever_o to_o abide_v therein_o in_o peace_n and_o for_o the_o issue_n and_o success_n of_o this_o agitation_n after_o there_o have_v be_v for_o many_o day_n as_o judiciary_n and_o full_a a_o charge_n trial_n and_o deposition_n of_o witness_n open_o afore_o all_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n as_o can_v be_v expect_v in_o any_o court_n where_o authority_n enjoin_v it_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v do_v as_o public_o acknowledge_v their_o sinful_a aberration_n in_o it_o restore_v their_o minister_n to_o his_o place_n again_o and_o order_v a_o solemn_a day_n of_o fast_v to_o humble_v themselves_o afore_o god_n and_o man_n for_o their_o sinful_a carriage_n in_o it_o and_o the_o party_n also_o which_o have_v be_v depose_v do_v acknowledge_v to_o that_o church_n wherein_o he_o have_v likewise_o sin_v in_o this_o part_n of_o your_o apology_n be_v contain_v the_o four_o and_o five_o of_o those_o five_o forementioned_a head_n unto_o which_o i_o refer_v all_o i_o shall_v answer_v to_o what_o you_o say_v upon_o your_o three_o and_o last_o instance_n about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n in_o the_o church_n the_o scope_n of_o which_o four_o head_n be_v to_o answer_v and_o take_v off_o a_o common_a objection_n bring_v against_o your_o way_n the_o strength_n of_o which_o answer_n be_v make_v up_o of_o those_o part_n and_o stand_v in_o these_o particular_n first_o in_o lay_v down_o your_o own_o principle_n which_o you_o hold_v in_o such_o a_o case_n second_o your_o practice_n according_a to_o those_o principle_n occasion_v upon_o a_o offence_n commit_v in_o one_o of_o your_o church_n which_o story_n you_o brief_o relate_v three_o the_o success_n and_o effectualness_n of_o your_o practice_n according_a to_o your_o principle_n illustrate_v by_o a_o instance_n now_o for_o that_o common_a
which_o be_v not_o your_o case_n deny_v authoritative_a power_n but_o if_o you_o say_v this_o text_n be_v mean_v secondary_o of_o all_o church_n and_o christian_n though_o they_o have_v not_o authoritative_a power_n i_o grant_v it_o but_o than_o it_o be_v in_o way_n suitable_a which_o the_o word_n of_o god_n give_v warrant_n and_o allowance_n for_o as_o in_o reprove_v mourn_a for_o the_o sin_n etc._n etc._n which_o must_v be_v show_v in_o some_o other_o scripture_n for_o else_o the_o presbyterian_o may_v pretend_v by_o virtue_n of_o this_o text_n that_o they_o ought_v not_o to_o be_v partaker_n of_o other_o man_n sin_n that_o they_o may_v censure_v depose_v excommunicate_a member_n of_o other_o church_n who_o be_v suffer_v to_o go_v on_o in_o sin_n better_a than_o you_o can_v draw_v from_o this_o text_n that_o you_o may_v call_v not_o only_o particular_a member_n but_o whole_a church_n to_o a_o account_n examine_v they_o and_o pronounce_v that_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o they_o but_o in_o a_o word_n brother_n let_v i_o tell_v you_o if_o such_o general_a text_n as_o these_o that_o may_v be_v apply_v to_o any_o course_n and_o way_n conceive_v by_o man_n in_o their_o own_o brain_n to_o hinder_v sin_n and_o reduce_v from_o offence_n will_v serve_v turn_n for_o church_n government_n and_o for_o remedy_n to_o reduce_v church_n than_o we_o can_v give_v you_o beside_o your_o own_o two_o text_n quote_v here_o for_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o non-communion_n many_o other_o such_o and_o more_o probable_a too_o for_o the_o authoritative_a power_n of_o presbytery_n and_o sinod_n as_o that_o in_o 1_o cor._n 14._o 22._o and_o the_o spirit_n of_o the_o prophet_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o prophet_n but_o we_o be_v not_o so_o hard_o put_v to_o it_o there_o be_v particular_a instance_n and_o example_n if_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o answer_n to_o such_o a_o narration_n will_v permit_v i_o to_o insist_v at_o large_a that_o prove_v the_o point_n in_o difference_n namely_o of_o act_n of_o power_n exercise_v by_o church_n in_o common_a as_o in_o election_n determination_n and_o imposition_n upon_o difference_n and_o controversy_n as_o act_n 15._o 2._o 4_o 6_o 7_o 13_o 22_o 23_o 24_o 28_o 29._o act_n 16._o 4_o 5._o 2_o corinih_n 8._o 18_o 19_o but_o let_v the_o indifferent_a reader_n judge_v by_o this_o which_o have_v be_v say_v whether_o the_o reform_a church_n or_o the_o independent_a practice_n most_o safe_o there_o be_v a_o ground_n as_o yourselves_o confess_v for_o the_o sentence_n of_o excommunication_n such_o a_o sentence_n you_o acknowledge_v in_o particular_a church_n and_o practice_v it_o and_o such_o a_o sentence_n have_v be_v decree_v and_o pass_v upon_o member_n of_o church_n by_o those_o who_o be_v not_o member_n of_o those_o church_n as_o the_o scripture_n be_v clear_a for_o it_o 1_o tim._n 1._o 19_o 20._o but_o on_o the_o other_o hand_n it_o be_v not_o grant_v that_o the_o scripture_n give_v any_o ground_n of_o pronounce_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o whole_a church_n or_o do_v allow_v any_o such_o practice_n of_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n unto_o all_o church_n against_o whole_a church_n this_o i_o utter_o deny_v and_o your_o scripture_n prove_v they_o not_o and_o i_o wonder_v how_o you_o dare_v call_v it_o the_o command_n of_o christ_n and_o the_o way_n of_o christ_n as_o you_o do_v in_o page_n 18_o 19_o and_o brethren_n beside_o that_o the_o scripture_n give_v neither_o precept_n nor_o example_n for_o your_o way_n of_o non-communion_n consider_v whether_o the_o scripture_n give_v not_o ground_n rather_o to_o the_o contrary_a namely_o against_o a_o particular_a church_n withdraw_v and_o renounce_v all_o christian_a communion_n with_o whole_a church_n upon_o a_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n for_o let_v i_o ask_v you_o may_v not_o such_o a_o church_n or_o church_n be_v true_a church_n for_o all_o this_o continue_v in_o their_o office_n upon_o mistake_a partiality_n and_o notwithstanding_o all_o the_o light_a a_o particular_a church_n can_v give_v they_o be_v unsatisfied_a now_o if_o a_o particular_a man_n may_v not_o separate_v nor_o withdraw_v christian_a communion_n from_o a_o true_a church_n though_o upon_o his_o counsel_n and_o advise_v she_o redress_v not_o but_o it_o be_v a_o schism_n then_o for_o one_o church_n upon_o counsel_n and_o advice_n give_v to_o more_o church_n though_o not_o take_v to_o separate_v formal_o from_o many_o church_n by_o pronounce_v that_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o withdraw_a and_o renounce_v all_o christian_a communion_n can_v be_v justify_v paul_n do_v not_o renounce_v nor_o cast-off_a church_n for_o many_o thing_n amiss_o though_o upon_o his_o counsel_n they_o be_v not_o mend_v as_o appear_v in_o the_o church_n of_o corinth_n that_o have_v be_v twice_o admonish_v 2_o cor._n 13._o 1_o 2._o and_o â—…t_a repent_v not_o and_o now_o paul_n do_v it_o the_o three_o time_n and_o yet_o refuse_v paul_n counsel_n and_o power_n be_v so_o infallible_a and_o authoritative_a deserve_v more_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n than_o the_o often_o reject_v the_o counsel_n and_o power_n of_o any_o particular_a church_n can_v do_v but_o i_o will_v answer_v you_o in_o your_o own_o language_n that_o your_o sacred_a and_o undoubted_a principle_n and_o supreme_a law_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o of_o the_o power_n of_o church_n offend_v to_o pronounce_v the_o heavy_a sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o the_o church_n offend_v and_o of_o declaration_n and_o protestation_n to_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n that_o they_o may_v do_v the_o like_a with_o your_o own_o practice_n express_v in_o the_o 20_o and_o 21._o page_n be_v to_o i_o apocriphâ—…_n and_o judge_v it_o to_o be_v a_o additament_n which_o therefore_o rest_v on_o you_o who_o allow_v the_o sentence_n of_o excommunication_n to_o make_v evident_a and_o demonstrate_v that_o of_o non-communion_n protestation_n declaration_n etc._n etc._n and_o thus_o it_o often_o fall_v out_o whilst_o man_n will_v oppose_v that_o which_o have_v long_o be_v receive_v in_o the_o church_n of_o god_n upon_o pretence_n of_o the_o want_n of_o scripture_n ground_n and_o bring_v in_o new_a way_n they_o practise_v novelty_n upon_o less_o ground_n and_o foundation_n from_o scripture_n than_o they_o reject_v the_o old_a as_o be_v to_o be_v see_v in_o this_o instance_n 2._o as_o these_o principle_n of_o yourâ—…_n have_v no_o foot_n in_o scripture_n so_o it_o will_v appear_v they_o be_v no_o sufficient_a remedy_n for_o miscarriage_n and_o evil_n which_o fall_v out_o in_o particular_a church_n by_o reason_n of_o their_o complete_a and_o entire_a power_n within_o themselves_o first_o because_o there_o be_v more_o act_n of_o power_n then_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o the_o instance_n you_o give_v upon_o it_o reach_v unto_o so_o that_o grant_v all_o you_o say_v of_o it_o yet_o it_o will_v but_o reach_v to_o that_o particular_a case_n or_o some_o such_o like_a case_n but_o will_v be_v no_o way_n sufficient_a either_o for_o prevent_v or_o remedy_v other_o evil_n and_o mischief_n which_o dâ—…e_v and_o will_v arise_v upon_o a_o congregationall_a government_n thus_o entire_a within_o itself_o so_o that_o here_o lie_v the_o fallacy_n in_o the_o question_n between_o you_o and_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o point_n of_o government_n you_o speak_v to_o some_o point_n of_o government_n but_o not_o to_o all_o and_o instead_o of_o lay_v down_o principle_n that_o shall_v answer_v all_o case_n they_o only_o serve_v but_o to_o some_o and_o so_o your_o principle_n that_o shall_v be_v simpliciter_fw-la be_v only_o secundum_fw-la quid_fw-la for_o in_o the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n there_o be_v many_o other_o act_n of_o power_n as_o of_o make_v and_o ordain_v minister_n of_o receive_v in_o member_n of_o agree_v upon_o a_o government_n doctrine_n and_o worship_n etc._n etc._n which_o this_o full_a complete_a entire_a power_n of_o particular_a congregation_n take_v upon_o they_o to_o do_v of_o which_o many_o great_a mischief_n do_v arise_v and_o be_v like_o error_n in_o the_o first_o concoction_n which_o your_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n reach_v not_o unto_o nor_o do_v not_o help_v but_o second_o beside_o this_o the_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v unto_o the_o other_o church_n offend_v with_o that_o practice_n of_o church_n final_o offend_v to_o denounce_v such_o a_o senâ—…ence_n of_o non-communion_n do_v not_o answer_v the_o case_n allege_v in_o heresy_n schism_n or_o person_n injure_v nor_o be_v not_o a_o sufficient_a remedy_n like_o that_o of_o combination_n of_o elder_n and_o for_o the_o make_v good_a of_o that_o i_o shall_v examine_v the_o way_n and_o course_n prescribe_v by_o you_o in_o your_o principle_n here_o lay_v down_o of_o submission_n non-communion_n declaration_n and_o protestation_n and_o
and_o restore_v mr_n ward_n agree_v upon_o be_v it_o not_o upon_o the_o news_n of_o the_o parliament_n and_o the_o probability_n of_o the_o revolution_n of_o thing_n and_o i_o propound_v this_o question_n because_o mr_n bâ—…rroughs_n who_o come_v in_o m._n ward_n place_n after_o his_o deposition_n come_v back_o to_o england_n but_o at_o the_o begin_n of_o the_o parliament_n and_o till_o he_o come_v or_o be_v resolve_v to_o come_v it_o be_v not_o probable_a m._n ward_n be_v restore_v and_o if_o so_o that_o it_o be_v do_v when_o all_o be_v like_a to_o break_v up_o and_o they_o to_o come_v fâ—…_n england_n may_v we_o not_o suspect_v it_o be_v do_v for_o a_o instance_n to_o vindicate_v your_o way_n with_o and_o to_o serve_v your_o turn_n as_o in_o this_o apology_n rather_o than_o from_o any_o necessity_n of_o right_v a_o person_n â—…jured_v or_o correct_v a_o church_n offend_v 5._o why_o do_v not_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n take_v offence_n as_o well_o at_o m._n sympson_n church_n and_o at_o his_o schism_n in_o set_v up_o another_o church_n and_o at_o all_o that_o bitterness_n evil_a speak_v between_o those_o two_o church_n the_o ground_n indeed_o and_o foundation_n of_o that_o unhappy_a business_n about_o m._n ward_n and_o of_o all_o the_o evil_n commit_v therein_o and_o according_o have_v require_v m._n sympson_n church_n to_o have_v submit_v but_o here_o be_v not_o a_o hint_n of_o this_o in_o all_o the_o relation_n of_o your_o practice_n i_o have_v a_o letter_n out_o of_o holland_n by_o i_o that_o concern_v this_o business_n write_v thus_o that_o though_o m._n sympson_n with_o sâ—…me_n fâ—…w_o morâ—…_n râ—…t_v themselves_o from_o m._n bridges_n church_n to_o the_o great_a offence_n thereof_o yet_o m._n goodwin_n and_o his_o associate_n when_o they_o come_v to_o hear_v the_o business_n about_o m._n ward_n never_o question_v that_o scandal_n i_o mean_v of_o their_o schism_n from_o the_o same_o church_n now_o if_o it_o be_v so_o be_v not_o this_o a_o partial_a remedy_n not_o reach_v to_o all_o the_o offence_n noâ—…_n to_o the_o bottom_n of_o it_o why_o do_v you_o not_o summon_v both_o these_o church_n in_o the_o matter_n of_o scandal_n and_o difference_n to_o submit_v as_o well_o as_o one_o of_o the_o church_n will_v not_o your_o principle_n serve_v in_o difference_n between_o church_n as_o for_o difference_n in_o one_o church_n or_o be_v it_o that_o there_o be_v no_o complaint_n of_o neither_o side_n or_o be_v it_o because_o you_o be_v tender_a of_o question_v the_o multiplication_n of_o church_n though_o by_o separation_n and_o schiâ—…me_n or_o what_o be_v the_o reason_n you_o question_v not_o that_o 6._o whether_o be_v the_o other_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n or_o any_o of_o they_o who_o can_v not_o but_o be_v offend_v as_o they_o of_o amsterdam_n hague_n utrich_n leyden_n delft_n call_v in_o by_o arnheim_n or_o by_o the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n to_o join_v in_o the_o hear_n try_v of_o that_o business_n and_o depose_v witness_n or_o do_v they_o send_v messenger_n or_o be_v it_o only_o agitate_a by_o two_o minister_n â—…nd_v two_o messenger_n of_o tâ—…_n church_n of_o arnheim_n one_o church_n only_o 〈◊〉_d to_o 〈◊〉_d one_o to_o one_o both_o equal_a and_o whether_o there_o can_v be_v the_o like_a majesty_n and_o solemnity_n of_o a_o meeting_n where_o they_o be_v equal_a â—…ay_v a_o inferiority_n in_o as_o much_o as_o a_o representative_a church_n consist_v of_o four_o be_v below_o a_o church_n represent_v as_o in_o a_o presbyterial_a assâ—…bly_n i_o have_v a_o letter_n from_o holland_n by_o i_o wherein_o a_o godly_a ministâ—…r_n write_v thus_o i_o be_v desire_v by_o mr_n ward_n to_o be_v present_a at_o that_o meeting_n but_o when_o the_o time_n come_v neither_o i_o nor_o any_o other_o english_a minister_n but_o they_o of_o arnheim_n be_v callâ—…d_v 7._o to_o what_o or_o to_o how_o much_o do_v your_o practice_n who_o be_v the_o church_n offend_v amount_v unto_o upon_o mr_n bridges_n church_n submission_n and_o your_o full_a hear_n and_o find_v both_o side_n to_o be_v in_o a_o error_n do_v you_o enjoin_v and_o draw_v up_o a_o order_n that_o the_o church_n offend_v shall_v public_o acknowledge_v their_o sinfâ—…_n abeâ—…ation_n before_o you_o and_o the_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n and_o restore_v their_o minister_n again_o and_o that_o they_o shall_v keep_v a_o solemn_a day_n of_o fast_v to_o humble_v themselves_o for_o their_o sinful_a carriage_n and_o that_o the_o minister_n depose_v shall_v acknowledge_v to_o the_o church_n wherein_o he_o have_v likewise_o sin_v or_o do_v you_o leave_v they_o to_o themselves_o upon_o your_o find_v the_o offence_n to_o do_v what_o they_o think_v fit_v both_o church_n and_o minister_n as_o be_v against_o your_o principle_n for_o one_o church_n to_o decree_n and_o impose_v any_o thing_n upon_o another_o and_o so_o they_o â—…ooke_v up_o this_o way_n voluntary_o will_v you_o will_v speak_v out_o and_o once_o tell_v we_o plain_o what_o you_o hold_v and_o what_o you_o woâ—…ld_v 〈◊〉_d that_o so_o the_o reader_n may_v judge_v of_o the_o effectualnessâ—…_n of_o your_o 〈◊〉_d 8._o i_o ask_v of_o you_o whether_o mr_n bridge_n with_o the_o offend_a church_n at_o rotterdam_n do_v sit_v as_o judge_n with_o they_o oâ—…_n 〈◊〉_d in_o their_o own_o cause_n to_o examine_v depose_v etc._n etc._n or_o else_o 〈◊〉_d by_o aâ—…_n delinquent_n to_o be_v charge_v try_a etc._n etc._n 9_o i_o deâ—…e_v to_o know_v of_o you_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d he_o be_v râ—…stored_v do_v as_o forme_o officiate_v in_o that_o church_n and_o how_o long_o and_o whether_o mr_n bridge_n and_o he_o continue_v there_o as_o fellow_n minister_n and_o whether_o both_o between_o they_o two_o and_o between_o the_o church_n and_o mr_n ward_n there_o be_v that_o mutual_a carriage_n as_o before_o and_o aught_o to_o be_v between_o fellow_n minister_n and_o minister_n and_o people_n 10._o how_o can_v a_o church_n representative_a be_v a_o sufficient_a and_o allow_a remedy_n to_o take_v up_o great_a offence_n in_o a_o church_n at_o a_o great_a distance_n and_o whether_o this_o imply_v not_o a_o implicit_a faith_n in_o the_o represent_v to_o let_v the_o representer_n upon_o hear_v put_v a_o final_a determination_n and_o conclusion_n to_o great_a offence_n and_o difference_n without_o return_v back_o the_o business_n to_o the_o church_n represent_v or_o so_o much_o as_o ever_o acquaint_v they_o with_o the_o business_n before_o all_o be_v end_v as_o be_v in_o this_o particular_a case_n and_o whether_o faith_n mr_n robinsâ—…s_fw-fr argument_n against_o the_o presbyterian_o â—…bout_o the_o power_n of_o their_o elder_n be_v not_o strong_a against_o your_o principle_n and_o practice_n here_o relate_v and_o what_o ground_n be_v there_o from_o tâ—…e_a scripture_n that_o four_o man_n of_o another_o church_n shall_v have_v power_n to_o call_v unto_o and_o insist_v upon_o a_o judiciarie_n charge_v against_o they_o who_o be_v great_a than_o themselves_o namely_o against_o a_o whole_a church_n consist_v of_o officerâ—…_n and_o people_n 11._o suppose_v the_o church_n of_o arâ—…m_n who_o send_v two_o ministerâ—…_n and_o two_o gentleman_n â—…s_v messenger_n of_o their_o church_n upon_o their_o return_n back_o to_o the_o church_n and_o give_v a_o account_n of_o all_o the_o proceed_n and_o issue_n of_o that_o business_n have_v dislike_v the_o determination_n and_o judge_v some_o of_o the_o proceed_n unjust_a otherâ—…_n unsatisfactory_a and_o not_o according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o word_n as_o the_o church_n of_o 〈◊〉_d may_v well_o have_v do_v there_o be_v just_a ground_n for_o it_o as_o i_o will_v show_v in_o the_o second_o particular_a under_o the_o next_o head_n what_o must_v have_v be_v do_v in_o this_o case_n must_v the_o messenger_n themselves_o have_v be_v now_o question_v by_o the_o church_n for_o manage_v matter_n no_o better_a or_o must_v the_o sentence_n agree_v upon_o both_o for_o the_o church_n and_o mr_n ward_n be_v reverse_v or_o must_v other_o messenger_n be_v send_v to_o hear_v matter_n again_o and_o to_o change_v or_o add_v what_o be_v amiss_o and_o what_o if_o the_o church_n will_v not_o alter_v that_o which_o upon_o so_o full_a a_o hear_n and_o trial_n be_v agree_v upon_o now_o i_o ask_v of_o you_o and_o appeal_v to_o the_o reader_n consider_v that_o the_o church_n or_o church_n themselves_o may_v probable_o and_o it_o can_v but_o be_v expect_v 〈◊〉_d and_o vary_v in_o their_o judgement_n from_o their_o messenger_n about_o the_o determination_n of_o offence_n and_o difference_n whether_o this_o be_v a_o likely_a mean_n and_o sufficient_a remedy_n to_o end_v all_o strifed_a or_o rather_o will_v not_o be_v as_o the_o begin_n of_o new_a strife_n and_o a_o occasion_n of_o endless_a contention_n 12._o in_o this_o way_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n and_o your_o practice_n upon_o occasion_n of_o offence_n and_o
therefore_o where_o any_o one_o repâ—…nts_n the_o church_n receive_v he_o so_o that_o in_o substitute_v the_o magistrate_n power_n in_o defect_n of_o excommunication_n and_o give_v a_o great_a deal_n more_o civil_a power_n for_o want_n of_o spiritual_a to_o make_v it_o as_o available_a for_o those_o spiritual_a end_n of_o the_o church_n be_v to_o leave_v the_o proper_a remedy_n and_o mean_n and_o to_o take_v up_o other_o and_o i_o will_v desire_v you_o to_o answer_v i_o whether_o the_o proper_a remedy_n and_o mean_n appoint_v for_o such_o end_n and_o use_n or_o the_o improper_a remedy_n nay_o remedy_n appoint_v and_o intend_v main_o for_o other_o end_n be_v most_o effectual_a and_o powerful_a to_o accomplish_v those_o end_n as_o also_o whether_o a_o part_n of_o a_o proper_a remedy_n be_v assist_v and_o back_v with_o a_o great_a proportion_n of_o a_o remedy_n of_o another_o nature_n and_o kind_n can_v be_v as_o effectual_a as_o the_o whole_a remedy_n and_o mean_n as_o for_o instance_n whether_o a_o little_a grace_n assist_v by_o civility_n and_o fairness_n of_o nature_n will_v do_v as_o much_o to_o overcome_v lust_n and_o destroy_v the_o flesh_n as_o the_o high_a degree_n of_o grace_n that_o saint_n may_v attain_v unto_o and_o whether_o a_o little_a spiritual_a knowledge_n second_v with_o a_o great_a deal_n of_o common_a and_o outward_a ecclesiast_n knowledge_n be_v as_o available_a for_o a_o christian_a conversation_n as_o great_a measure_n of_o spiritual_a knowledge_n though_o a_o man_n have_v but_o a_o little_a knowledge_n in_o philosophy_n physic_n law_n etc._n etc._n but_o more_o particular_o to_o let_v you_o see_v that_o your_o recourse_n unto_o the_o magistrate_n and_o the_o magistrate_n assist_v and_o back_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n be_v not_o comparable_a to_o that_o of_o excommunication_n and_o presbyterial_a government_n i_o shall_v commend_v to_o your_o consideration_n these_o eight_o follow_v particular_n first_o there_o may_v be_v many_o sin_n and_o error_n which_o the_o christian_a magistrate_n meddle_v not_o with_o be_v not_o matter_n of_o his_o cognisance_n if_o you_o will_v have_v recourse_n to_o he_o or_o if_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n be_v pronounce_v against_o a_o church_n because_o of_o impenitency_n in_o they_o he_o have_v nothing_o to_o do_v to_o assist_v and_o back_o it_o there_o be_v no_o law_n for_o such_o thing_n which_o yet_o be_v spiritual_a evil_n and_o prejudicial_a to_o the_o soul_n of_o man_n shall_v be_v deal_v with_o to_o recover_v man_n out_o of_o they_o learned_a zanchius_n in_o his_o difference_n that_o he_o give_v between_o the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n and_o the_o magistrate_n censure_n observe_v this_o for_o a_o special_a one_o there_o be_v many_o wickedness_n against_o which_o the_o magistrate_n true_o christian_n do_v not_o use_v to_o proceed_v neither_o be_v bind_v by_o his_o law_n as_o for_o instance_n private_a fall_n out_o hatred_n &c_n &c_n as_o also_o many_o evil_a manner_n both_o domestical_a and_o public_a which_o do_v not_o disturb_v the_o public_a peace_n or_o the_o public_a good_a but_o the_o church_n ought_v not_o to_o bare_a these_o but_o to_o correct_v they_o according_a to_o christ_n institution_n now_o what_o will_v you_o do_v in_o this_o case_n here_o your_o recourse_n of_o submission_n to_o the_o magistrate_n with_o the_o magistrate_n back_v non-communion_n fail_v you_o and_o conduce_v nothing_o at_o all_o second_o in_o case_n the_o magistrate_n be_v of_o those_o church_n and_o chief_a in_o those_o sin_n and_o miscarriage_n for_o which_o non-communion_n be_v denounce_v against_o those_o church_n as_o may_v easy_o fall_v out_o how_o will_v you_o have_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n now_o back_v and_o assist_v both_o those_o church_n and_o the_o magistrate_n member_n of_o they_o shall_v have_v nothing_o to_o back_o non-communion_n to_o make_v it_o equivalent_a to_o excommunication_n nay_o i_o ask_v of_o you_o who_o bring_v in_o more_o of_o the_o magistrate_n power_n to_o supply_v the_o want_n of_o excommunication_n where_o the_o particular_a church_n will_v not_o and_o the_o class_n may_v not_o what_o shall_v be_v do_v with_o the_o magistrate_n offend_v what_o mean_n have_v god_n leave_v for_o the_o recovery_n of_o they_o you_o can_v imagine_v they_o will_v make_v use_n of_o their_o power_n against_o themselves_o now_o if_o they_o may_v not_o have_v spiritual_a remedy_n and_o censure_n as_o of_o excommunication_n this_o principle_n of_o the_o magistrate_n power_n fall_v short_a here_o whereas_o in_o presbyterial_a government_n there_o be_v a_o remedy_n and_o redress_v for_o all_o and_o certain_o god_n way_n of_o govern_v his_o church_n provide_v for_o all_o whereas_o you_o fall_v short_a 3._o what_o if_o upon_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n denounce_v against_o a_o church_n or_o church_n the_o magistrate_n judge_v otherwise_o and_o hold_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n unjust_a and_o will_v not_o assist_v it_o which_o may_v ordinary_o fall_v out_o what_o effectual_a mean_n have_v the_o offend_a church_n of_o be_v reduce_v now_o by_o virtue_n of_o the_o magistrate_n power_n and_o what_o must_v be_v do_v in_o this_o case_n may_v the_o magistrate_n revoke_v that_o sentence_n of_o the_o church_n or_o church_n offend_v and_o declare_v it_o null_a and_o cause_v the_o church_n who_o pass_v the_o sentence_n to_o recall_v it_o and_o to_o continue_v their_o communion_n and_o suppose_v those_o church_n will_v not_o revoke_v it_o but_o stand_v to_o their_o act_n what_o shall_v be_v do_v in_o this_o case_n who_o must_v judge_v now_o between_o these_o church_n and_o the_o magistrate_n may_v the_o magistrate_n now_o by_o his_o power_n which_o you_o give_v he_o in_o ecclesiastical_n instead_o of_o back_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o a_o church_n miscarry_v as_o the_o church_n suppose_v now_o turn_v his_o power_n against_o the_o church_n for_o denounce_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n vojust_o as_o the_o magistrate_n judge_v and_o not_o only_o declare_v it_o void_a but_o punish_v this_o church_n or_o church_n for_o denounce_v such_o a_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n and_o declare_v and_o protest_v to_o all_o other_o church_n that_o they_o may_v do_v the_o like_a and_o what_o if_o all_o the_o church_n protest_v to_o will_v continue_v to_o renounce_v communion_n with_o the_o church_n censure_v with_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n notwithstanding_o the_o magistrate_n refuse_v to_o assist_v that_o sentence_n nay_o though_o he_o declare_v it_o void_a or_o what_o if_o upon_o the_o magistrate_n declaration_n some_o of_o the_o church_n give_v the_o righ-hand_n of_o fellowship_n again_o but_o other_o will_v not_o what_o must_v the_o magistrate_n or_o the_o church_n do_v in_o these_o case_n and_o the_o like_a consider_v well_o of_o it_o whether_o this_o effectual_a way_n of_o you_o the_o magistrate_n assist_v and_o back_v the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n instead_o of_o a_o powerful_a mean_n to_o relieve_v injure_a person_n or_o reduce_v church_n will_v not_o prove_v a_o mean_n of_o great_a difference_n and_o division_n as_o well_o between_o the_o church_n and_o the_o magistrate_n as_o between_o the_o church_n themselves_o 4._o must_v the_o magistrate_n assist_v and_o back_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o the_o church_n or_o church_n offend_v and_o persist_v therein_o upon_o the_o come_n of_o it_o to_o he_o and_o so_o punish_v it_o according_a to_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o crime_n as_o he_o judge_n meet_v without_o first_o hear_v what_o the_o church_n can_v say_v for_o itself_o or_o must_v he_o first_o hear_v they_o both_o and_o in_o case_n more_o church_n mutual_o renounce_v communion_n with_o one_o another_o and_o protest_v against_o each_o other_o with_o other_o particular_n instance_a in_o about_o the_o remedy_n of_o non-communion_n under_o the_o four_o general_a head_n what_o shall_v he_o do_v in_o these_o case_n must_v he_o hear_v all_o 5._o what_o magistrate_n or_o magistrate_n do_v you_o mean_v to_o who_o in_o ecclesiastical_a cause_n you_o will_v have_v recourse_n unto_o and_o that_o must_v assist_v and_o back_o the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n do_v you_o mean_v the_o supreme_a and_o chief_a magistrate_n the_o high_a power_n only_o or_o all_o inferior_a magistrate_n in_o their_o several_a station_n and_o division_n where_o these_o thing_n fall_v out_o as_o major_n of_o city_n and_o town_n justice_n of_o peace_n and_o such_o magistrate_n or_o do_v you_o mean_v the_o christian_n protestant_n magistrate_n or_o magistrate_n though_o heathen_n popish_a arrian_n or_o do_v you_o mean_v by_o the_o magistrate_n power_n that_o there_o shall_v be_v court_n of_o civil_a judicature_n erect_v in_o every_o division_n of_o the_o county_n to_o hear_v the_o difference_n that_o fall_v out_o between_o church_n offend_v one_o with_o another_o etc._n etc._n or_o what_o do_v you_o mean_v if_o you_o understand_v the_o supreme_a magistrate_n
so_o there_o be_v need_n of_o synod_n for_o the_o govern_n of_o the_o church_n and_o for_o the_o prevent_n of_o herâ—…fies_v in_o a_o word_n all_o thing_n be_v loose_a in_o independent_a government_n every_o one_o be_v leave_v and_o may_v take_v liberty_n without_o control_n to_o do_v what_o be_v good_a in_o their_o own_o eye_n if_o they_o like_v not_o any_o church_n whereof_o they_o be_v member_n they_o may_v go_v to_o another_o nay_o a_o few_o in_o a_o church_n dislike_a that_o church_n may_v go_v make_v a_o church_n themselves_o and_o make_v minister_n and_o hold_v what_o they_o will_v as_o mr_n sympson_n do_v with_o some_o few_o more_o and_o since_o some_o have_v rend_v from_o mr_n sympson_n church_n as_o he_o from_o mr_n bridge_n the_o rule_v they_o go_v by_o be_v loose_a nothing_o be_v fix_v nor_o certain_a among_o they_o and_o there_o can_v be_v no_o settledness_n of_o mind_n nor_o consistence_n of_o principle_n in_o that_o way_n simple_a and_o well_o mean_v people_n according_a to_o their_o principle_n must_v be_v draw_v till_o they_o come_v to_o that_o to_o hold_v that_o there_o be_v no_o true_a church_n nor_o minister_n at_o all_o yet_o upon_o the_o earth_n which_o principle_n begin_v to_o take_v and_o spread_v already_o among_o many_o independent_o in_o a_o word_n that_o liberty_n and_o looseness_n which_o be_v from_o first_o to_o last_o in_o independent_a government_n hold_v no_o authoritative_a ecclesiastical_a power_n out_o of_o the_o particular_a congregation_n to_o remedy_n or_o prevent_v any_o matter_n and_o that_o which_o be_v in_o the_o particular_a congregation_n be_v on_o many_o ground_n and_o principle_n of_o they_o so_o slight_a and_o weak_a as_o the_o only_a subject_n of_o excommunication_n be_v no_o other_o kind_n of_o sin_n than_o may_v evident_o be_v presume_v to_o be_v perpetrate_v against_o the_o party_n know_v light_n etc._n etc._n as_o that_o two_o or_o three_o saint_n or_o now_o of_o late_a six_o or_o seven_o may_v withdraw_v from_o church_n defective_a and_o impure_a and_o make_v church_n and_o choose_v all_o officer_n etc._n etc._n with_o other_o like_a so_o that_o what_o need_v they_o care_v then_o for_o that_o church_n of_o which_o they_o be_v member_n though_o cast_v out_o see_v they_o can_v make_v new_a and_o have_v all_o to_o their_o own_o mind_n be_v chief_a there_o be_v a_o dangerous_a temptation_n even_o to_o sober_a man_n to_o make_v they_o presume_v to_o broach_v that_o practise_v that_o which_o else_o they_o will_v never_o have_v do_v but_o in_o the_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n there_o be_v consistence_n unity_n and_o strength_n as_o be_v evident_a by_o a_o hundred_o year_n visible_a experience_n of_o god_n blessing_n from_o heaven_n upon_o they_o there_o be_v also_o a_o certainty_n and_o fixedness_n of_o rule_n agree_v on_o both_o for_o particular_a congregation_n for_o class_n and_o synod_n there_o be_v a_o aw_v and_o preserve_v of_o officer_n and_o people_n in_o their_o bound_n and_o keep_v they_o from_o run_v out_o to_o error_n etc._n etc._n there_o be_v no_o man_n be_v he_o never_o so_o able_a or_o subtle_a that_o can_v escape_v call_v to_o account_n and_o censure_n magistrate_n and_o minister_n have_v their_o power_n in_o the_o church_n without_o usurpation_n and_o confusion_n and_o to_o conclude_v in_o the_o word_n of_o the_o commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n be_v magistrate_n and_o civil_a power_n acquaint_v with_o this_o order_n and_o government_n of_o the_o church_n they_o will_v find_v their_o authority_n increase_v their_o work_n more_o easy_a and_o their_o place_n more_o comfortable_a thereby_o and_o now_o have_v give_v a_o answer_n to_o that_o part_n of_o your_o apology_n under_o that_o instance_n of_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n by_o speak_v full_o of_o those_o five_o head_n unto_o which_o i_o refer_v all_o your_o discourse_n about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n begin_v in_o pag._n 12._o and_o end_v in_o the_o 21._o i_o will_v for_o a_o close_o speak_v something_o to_o some_o of_o your_o passage_n contain_v in_o this_o part_n of_o your_o narration_n which_o can_v not_o so_o well_o be_v take_v in_o nor_o so_o proper_o animadvert_v upon_o under_o those_o five_o head_n without_o the_o reader_n be_v much_o confound_v and_o entangle_v 1._o to_o that_o passage_n p._n 14._o we_o have_v for_o the_o most_o part_n of_o the_o time_n we_o be_v abroad_o three_o elder_n at_o least_o in_o each_o congregation_n who_o we_o be_v subject_a to_o i_o ask_v if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n you_o many_o time_n have_v but_o three_o and_o sometime_o but_o two_o nay_o one_o elder_a the_o government_n of_o your_o church_n then_o be_v either_o monarchical_a government_n or_o oligarchicall_a at_o best_a and_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n who_o be_v the_o elder_n subject_n to_o the_o elder_n than_o be_v under_o no_o subjection_n but_o if_o the_o church_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o elder_n and_o not_o the_o elder_n to_o the_o church_n riddle_n i_o what_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o all_o those_o phrase_n the_o church_n still_o do_v so_o and_o so_o not_o the_o elder_n the_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n depose_v m._n ward_n and_o not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o elder_a or_o two_o and_o so_o m._n nye_n and_o m._n goodwin_n the_o minister_n be_v send_v by_o the_o church_n and_o that_o church_n which_o have_v offend_v confess_v their_o sin_n and_o restore_v their_o minister_n to_o his_o place_n again_o which_o sure_o be_v not_o m._n bridge_n and_o a_o lay-elder_n or_o two_o 2._o to_o those_o passage_n of_o church_n offend_v call_v to_o a_o account_n church_n offend_v proceed_v to_o full_a and_o open_a trial_n and_o examination_n to_o judiciarie_n charge_n and_o deposition_n of_o witness_n open_o before_o all_o comer_n of_o all_o sort_n as_o can_v be_v expect_v in_o any_o court_n where_o authority_n about_o they_o enjoin_v it_o and_o of_o a_o particular_a church_n be_v censurable_a by_o neighbour_n church_n about_o they_o i_o desire_v to_o put_v this_o disjunctive_a proposition_n either_o this_o power_n of_o call_v to_o a_o account_n examine_v depose_v witness_n censure_v they_o etc._n etc._n be_v act_n of_o rule_v and_o government_n and_o in_o the_o church_n challenge_v act_n of_o subjection_n or_o they_o be_v not_o if_o you_o grant_v they_o be_v act_n of_o rule_n and_o government_n than_o there_o be_v a_o authoritative_a power_n which_o church_n have_v out_o of_o their_o church_n and_o you_o grant_v it_o in_o such_o act_n at_o least_o though_o not_o in_o that_o of_o excommunication_n but_o whether_o if_o it_o be_v so_o in_o these_o that_o of_o excommunication_n will_v not_o follow_v let_v it_o be_v consider_v for_o either_o the_o censure_n of_o excommunication_n be_v not_o found_v upon_o the_o common_a ground_n on_o which_o calling_n to_o account_n and_o some_o censure_n be_v or_o else_o there_o be_v some_o proper_a peculiar_a ground_n in_o the_o nature_n of_o that_o ordinance_n or_o in_o the_o scripture_n forbid_v that_o though_o allow_v other_o neither_o of_o which_o will_v be_v find_v to_o have_v a_o foundation_n in_o scripture_n and_o if_o so_o why_o then_o do_v you_o make_v all_o this_o ado_n of_o entire_a full_a complete_a power_n within_o yourselves_o and_o be_v against_o the_o combination_n of_o church_n in_o class_n and_o presbytery_n to_o do_v that_o constant_o certain_o and_o present_o upon_o scandal_n that_o fall_v out_o in_o a_o church_n which_o you_o do_v at_o best_a but_o at_o uncertainty_n and_o after_o a_o long_a time_n when_o the_o remedy_n may_v come_v too_o late_o a_o year_n or_o two_o afterward_o but_o if_o you_o answer_v these_o be_v no_o act_n of_o government_n and_o rule_n in_o this_o church_n or_o church_n but_o mere_o act_n of_o consultation_n advice_n persuasion_n and_o that_o when_o the_o church_n offend_v have_v hear_v all_o they_o only_o give_v their_o counsel_n and_o advice_n and_o commend_v it_o to_o they_o but_o it_o be_v in_o their_o liberty_n to_o do_v or_o not_o to_o do_v for_o though_o they_o submit_v to_o a_o hear_n and_o open_a trial_n by_o virtue_n of_o the_o principle_n of_o submission_n yet_o they_o submit_v not_o to_o stand_v to_o the_o determination_n and_o agreement_n of_o that_o church_n or_o church_n i_o answer_v if_o you_o mean_v no_o more_o than_o the_o bare_a power_n of_o counsel_n and_o advice_n in_o all_o this_o and_o no_o power_n of_o authoritative_a determination_n and_o decision_n this_o be_v no_o more_o nor_o you_o give_v no_o more_o to_o the_o church_n offend_v then_o to_o particular_a christian_n who_o may_v counsel_v they_o in_o such_o case_n and_o why_o then_o do_v you_o hold_v out_o such_o word_n and_o your_o practice_n of_o a_o full_a and_o
open_a trial_n and_o what_o speak_v you_o of_o room_n for_o complaint_n and_o of_o subject_v to_o a_o open_a trial_n and_o review_v of_o what_o can_v be_v bring_v and_o of_o be_v censurable_a by_o neighbour_n church_n etc._n etc._n whether_o be_v not_o all_o these_o the_o usual_a phrase_n and_o expression_n of_o act_n of_o power_n and_o government_n can_v there_o be_v so_o much_o as_o trial_n and_o examination_n and_o judiciary_n charge_n and_o deposition_n of_o witness_n without_o authority_n much_o less_o censure_n can_v you_o ever_o show_v it_o either_o in_o civil_a government_n in_o commonwealth_n or_o in_o ecclesiastical_a in_o church_n out_o of_o scripture_n or_o story_n where_o all_o these_o act_n be_v exercise_v and_o practise_v by_o person_n who_o only_o have_v power_n of_o counsel_n and_o advice_n and_o if_o you_o can_v how_o can_v you_o make_v it_o good_a but_o that_o this_o must_v be_v more_o than_o advice_n and_o counsel_n namely_o authoritative_a power_n it_o be_v give_v as_o a_o rule_n by_o yourselves_o that_o in_o matter_n of_o a_o common_a nature_n it_o be_v in_o ecclesiastical_a government_n as_o in_o civil_a now_o if_o in_o all_o civil_a assembly_n all_o these_o act_n and_o practice_n be_v act_n of_o authority_n and_o government_n why_o hold_v it_o not_o so_o in_o ecclesiastical_a and_o further_o to_o reason_n though_o church_n be_v sister_n and_o equal_v each_o consider_v by_o itself_o yet_o in_o case_n of_o offence_n and_o difference_n between_o church_n the_o church_n complain_v and_o appeal_v unto_o to_o who_o the_o rest_n submit_v shall_v now_o be_v great_a and_o have_v more_o power_n in_o this_o thing_n than_o the_o church_n submit_v and_o their_o act_n shall_v be_v authoritative_a as_o in_o reason_n 6_o or_o 8_o man_n fall_v out_o and_o choose_v and_o submit_v to_o other_o to_o hear_v the_o business_n and_o make_v a_o end_n of_o it_o these_o be_v now_o great_a and_o have_v a_o power_n and_o authority_n over_o these_o quo_fw-la ad_fw-la hoc_fw-la and_o in_o these_o act_n and_o what_o they_o do_v be_v act_n of_o power_n which_o they_o must_v stand_v unto_o or_o suffer_v the_o penalty_n three_o you_o speak_v more_o than_o once_o upon_o occasion_n of_o this_o scandal_n commit_v in_o that_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n of_o church_n as_o in_o the_o plural_a number_n sister_n church_n to_o be_v consult_v with_o before_o hand_n and_o of_o your_o church_n mutual_o and_o universal_o acknowledge_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n and_o how_o that_o church_n â—…hich_v with_o other_o be_v most_o scandalize_v do_v by_o letter_n declare_v their_o offence_n and_o of_o require_v a_o full_a and_o public_a hear_n before_o all_o the_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n now_o what_o and_o where_o be_v those_o other_o church_n of_o who_o all_o this_o be_v speak_v i_o grant_v that_o at_o arnheim_n be_v one_o church_n that_o mr_n bridges_n church_n shall_v have_v consult_v with_o or_o have_v submit_v to_o but_o where_o be_v any_o other_o church_n i_o will_v yield_v the_o church_n at_o arnheim_n may_v by_o letter_n declare_v their_o offence_n but_o i_o know_v not_o what_o other_o church_n do_v by_o letter_n do_v the_o like_a i_o grant_v the_o church_n at_o arnheim_n be_v a_o church_n of_o our_o nation_n before_o who_o the_o offend_a church_n do_v yield_v a_o public_a hear_n but_o i_o know_v of_o no_o other_o i_o will_v not_o question_v but_o that_o the_o church_n at_o arnheim_n and_o mr_n bridges_n church_n do_v upon_o the_o offence_n of_o depose_v mr_n ward_n acknowledge_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n and_o submit_v to_o one_o another_o but_o i_o doubt_v no_o other_o do_v then_o mutual_o submit_v for_o beside_o the_o church_n at_o arnheim_n offend_v and_o mr_n bridges_n church_n offend_v there_o be_v no_o other_o church_n of_o your_o way_n and_o communion_n for_o the_o offend_a church_n to_o consult_v with_o or_o that_o do_v write_v letter_n or_o before_o who_o the_o business_n be_v hear_v etc._n etc._n for_o i_o suppose_v and_o judge_n mr_n simpson_n new_a church_n be_v at_o that_o difference_n with_o mr_n bridges_n church_n and_o mr_n bridge_n with_o he_o mr_n bridges_n church_n shall_v not_o have_v consult_v with_o mr_n simpson_n before_o hand_n and_o that_o mr_n bridges_n church_n will_v not_o have_v yield_v the_o principle_n of_o submission_n to_o have_v submit_v to_o a_o full_a trial_n and_o examination_n of_o all_o proceed_n before_o mr_n simpson_n and_o in_o case_n mr_n simpson_n church_n have_v send_v letter_n declare_v their_o offence_n they_o will_v have_v decline_v it_o as_o partial_a and_o as_o account_v they_o the_o party_n offend_v and_o i_o never_o hear_v that_o mr_n simpson_n with_o some_o messenger_n of_o his_o church_n join_v with_o the_o messenger_n of_o arnheim_n in_o the_o trial_n of_o that_o business_n of_o mr_n ward_n or_o sit_v as_o judge_n etc._n etc._n so_o that_o i_o can_v tell_v why_o you_o use_v church_n in_o the_o plural_a number_n thus_o all_o along_o in_o that_o business_n but_o that_o the_o reader_n may_v conceive_v for_o your_o great_a authority_n and_o esteem_n and_o for_o the_o great_a solemnity_n of_o the_o action_n there_o be_v more_o church_n beside_o that_o at_o arnheim_n four_o for_o those_o two_o gentleman_n who_o be_v send_v with_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n offend_v to_o require_v a_o account_n whether_o be_v those_o gentleman_n elder_n of_o the_o church_n of_o arnheim_n or_o private_a member_n only_o if_o they_o be_v not_o elder_n why_o be_v private_a member_n send_v before_o elder_n show_v we_o a_o rule_n for_o that_o and_o satisfy_v we_o how_o private_a person_n and_o no_o officer_n of_o the_o church_n shall_v represent_v the_o church_n but_o if_o they_o be_v elder_n why_o do_v you_o name_v they_o gentleman_n only_o and_o not_o speak_v of_o they_o as_o officer_n 5._o whether_o though_o you_o make_v so_o sure_a of_o it_o yet_o it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v doubt_v upon_o the_o ground_n of_o reason_n and_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o it_o be_v not_o more_o brotherly_a and_o more_o suit_v to_o that_o liberty_n and_o equality_n christ_n have_v endow_v his_o church_n with_o but_o a_o point_n of_o great_a authority_n inequality_n and_o usurpation_n for_o four_o man_n grant_v they_o to_o be_v a_o church_n representative_a to_o take_v upon_o they_o what_o those_o four_o member_n of_o arnheim_n do_v to_o a_o whole_a church_n for_o so_o many_o day_n so_o full_o and_o judiciary_o to_o proceed_v as_o you_o write_v in_o the_o 21_o page_n then_o for_o a_o whole_a presbytery_n of_o minister_n and_o elder_n or_o a_o grave_a synod_n to_o call_v to_o a_o account_n and_o hear_v the_o offence_n of_o two_o or_o three_o in_o a_o particular_a church_n and_o together_o with_o that_o church_n representative_a to_o decree_v such_o censure_n as_o public_a acknowledgement_n of_o their_o offence_n or_o excommunication_n etc._n etc._n six_o i_o much_o wonder_v how_o you_o can_v call_v the_o meeting_n of_o mr_n goodwin_n and_o mr_n nye_n with_o two_o gentleman_n more_o call_z mr_n bridge_n with_o the_o rest_n of_o that_o church_n suppose_v to_o be_v delinquent_n such_o a_o solâ—…mne_a assembly_n the_o solemnity_n of_o which_o have_v leave_v as_o deep_a a_o imprâ—…ssion_n upon_o your_o heart_n of_o christ_n dreadful_a presence_n as_o ever_o you_o have_v beeâ—…_n present_a at_o certain_o you_o have_v either_o be_v but_o at_o few_o solemn_a assembly_n where_o christ_n dreadful_a presence_n have_v be_v or_o else_o your_o fancy_n be_v mighty_a high_a at_o that_o time_n as_o to_o make_v such_o a_o deep_a impression_n upon_o you_o of_o a_o dreadful_a presence_n as_o ever_o you_o have_v be_v at_o let_v i_o ask_v mr_n nye_n what_o be_v this_o assembly_n beyond_o the_o solemn_a general_a assembly_n of_o scotland_n where_o you_o be_v present_a when_o the_o great_a solemn_a covenant_n of_o the_o kingdom_n pass_v of_o which_o you_o write_v so_o high_o into_o england_n or_o be_v it_o beyond_o the_o assembly_n of_o divine_n wherein_o not_o only_o two_o of_o you_o be_v for_o consultation_n but_o all_o you_o â—…ive_v with_o so_o many_o other_o godly_a divine_n where_o instead_o of_o two_o gentleman_n assist_v then_o here_o the_o worthy_n of_o both_o house_n lord_n and_o commons_o assist_v nay_o a_o theatre_n of_o all_o other_o the_o most_o judicious_a and_o severe_a where_o much_o of_o the_o piety_n learning_n and_o wisdom_n of_o two_o kingdom_n be_v meet_v in_o one_o as_o yourselves_o confess_v afterward_o in_o the_o 27_o page_n i_o be_o of_o the_o mind_n there_o be_v ordinary_o many_o assembly_n and_o where_o you_o may_v have_v be_v that_o have_v a_o more_o dreadful_a presence_n of_o christ_n then_o that_o have_v the_o church_n meet_v to_o partake_v in_o the_o lord_n supper_n call_v the_o dreadful_a and_o terrible_a hour_n by_o some_o of_o the_o father_n
of_o dort_n and_o unto_o ostensum_fw-la vedelius_fw-la de_fw-la episcopatu_fw-la constantini_n magni_fw-la who_o as_o all_o man_n know_v give_v in_o that_o book_n power_n enough_o to_o magistrate_n in_o ecclesiastical_n yet_o he_o lay_v down_o at_o large_a that_o as_o the_o anabaptist_n and_o socinian_o follow_v the_o donatist_n give_v too_o little_a to_o the_o magistrate_n so_o the_o arminian_n do_v offend_v in_o the_o excess_n for_o before_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n they_o contend_v that_o under_o the_o orthodox_n magistrate_n the_o church_n have_v of_o itself_o no_o spiritual_a power_n the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n do_v perform_v their_o office_n in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o magistrate_n so_o that_o the_o magistrate_n because_o he_o for_o other_o business_n can_v not_o preach_v etc._n etc._n he_o do_v preach_v by_o the_o minister_n they_o give_v the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n to_o the_o magistrate_n alone_o they_o give_v the_o call_n of_o minister_n and_o their_o depose_n to_o the_o magistrate_n alone_o with_o many_o other_o such_o but_o afâ—…er_v the_o synod_n they_o deny_v it_o be_v their_o right_n and_o office_n to_o oblige_v man_n by_o their_o authority_n to_o the_o decree_n of_o synod_n however_o agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n or_o to_o use_v any_o coactive_a power_n in_o that_o case_n etc._n etc._n in_o which_o they_o take_v away_o as_o much_o from_o the_o magistrate_n as_o in_o other_o thing_n they_o seem_v to_o give_v and_o it_o may_v be_v fear_v however_o these_o apologist_n now_o to_o ingratiate_v themselves_o and_o be_v leave_v alone_o in_o their_o churchway_n say_v they_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o presbyterial_a and_o that_o they_o profess_v to_o submit_v and_o to_o be_v most_o willing_a to_o have_v recourse_n to_o the_o magistrate_n judgement_n and_o cognizance_n and_o examination_n of_o ecclesiastical_a cause_n yet_o when_o they_o shall_v come_v once_o to_o be_v cross_v and_o the_o parliament_n by_o the_o advice_n of_o the_o assembly_n to_o settle_v the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n and_o by_o their_o authority_n to_o bind_v they_o to_o the_o thing_n agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n we_o shall_v see_v then_o what_o they_o will_v say_v of_o the_o magistrate_n power_n there_o be_v too_o many_o speech_n already_o since_o the_o meeting_n of_o the_o assembly_n out_o of_o their_o fear_n how_o thing_n may_v go_v which_o have_v fall_v from_o many_o independent_o that_o prognosticate_n they_o will_v do_v by_o the_o parliament_n as_o the_o remonstrant_n do_v after_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n by_o the_o state_n 2._o but_o whatever_o you_o say_v here_o that_o you_o think_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o principle_n suffragamur_fw-la of_o the_o presbyterian_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v i_o do_v much_o doubt_v it_o and_o do_v judge_v that_o in_o many_o thing_n you_o give_v no_o more_o in_o ecclesiastical_n then_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o in_o other_o you_o give_v less_o and_o they_o give_v more_o m._n robinson_n in_o his_o apology_n say_v of_o himself_o and_o his_o church_n that_o in_o the_o point_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o his_o office_n they_o hold_v altogether_o the_o same_o thing_n which_o the_o belgic_a church_n do_v and_o that_o to_o their_o confession_n in_o this_o point_n they_o do_v ex_fw-la animo_fw-la agree_v now_o the_o belgic_a church_n be_v presbyterian_o and_o your_o churchway_n &_o m._n robinson_n differ_v not_o much_o â—…o_o that_o till_o you_o know_v what_o you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n then_o m._n robinson_n and_o his_o church_n do_v i_o can_v believe_v you_o especial_o consider_v that_o m._n burroughes_n one_o of_o you_o in_o his_o lecture_n upon_o hosea_n speak_v of_o the_o power_n of_o magistrate_n in_o church_n affair_n veâ—…_n give_v no_o more_o to_o they_o then_o the_o rigide_a presbyterian_o namely_o that_o the_o king_n be_v supreme_a governor_n to_o govern_v in_o a_o civil_a way_n by_o civil_a law_n so_o as_o to_o sâ—…_n christ_n not_o dishonour_v so_o as_o to_o keep_v out_o idolatry_n to_o protect_v the_o church_n to_o punish_v enormitio_n that_o be_v there_o to_o define_v it_o from_o enemy_n in_o that_o sense_n he_o be_v say_v to_o be_v the_o head_n but_o that_o title_n of_o supreme_a governor_n be_v understand_v in_o a_o civil_a way_n be_v more_o proper_a now_o it_o be_v easy_a out_o of_o beza_n calvin_n zanchius_n and_o many_o presbyterian_o to_o show_v more_o power_n give_v to_o king_n by_o they_o in_o matter_n of_o religion_n then_o by_o m._n burroughes_n there_o so_o that_o i_o have_v more_o reason_n to_o judge_v of_o your_o principle_n by_o what_o m._n burroughes_n write_v particular_o and_o by_o way_n of_o answer_v doubt_n of_o conscience_n then_o from_o a_o narrration_n in_o general_a and_o from_o we_o think_v more_o than_o the_o principle_n of_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v in_o other_o thing_n you_o give_v not_o so_o much_o to_o the_o magistrate_n as_o the_o presbyterian_o first_o whereas_o the_o a_o presbyterian_o do_v acknowledge_v the_o protestant_a prince_n and_o magistrate_n a_o eminent_a member_n of_o the_o church_n and_o in_o their_o great_a assembly_n and_o counsel_n give_v he_o a_o eminent_a place_n and_o power_n you_o according_a to_o your_o principle_n do_v not_o own_v he_o for_o a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n neither_o shall_v his_o child_n be_v admit_v to_o baptism_n nor_o he_o to_o the_o ordinance_n though_o a_o protestant_n and_o orthodox_n unless_o you_o account_v he_o a_o visible_a saint_n etc._n etc._n neither_o do_v you_o give_v he_o so_o much_o power_n or_o vote_n no_o not_o in_o a_o particular_a church_n in_o any_o church_n matter_n of_o censure_n admission_n election_n of_o officer_n etc._n etc._n as_o you_o do_v give_v to_o one_o of_o your_o serve_a man_n and_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n and_o his_o child_n though_o bring_v up_o and_o profess_v the_o true_a religion_n may_v be_v and_o will_v be_v keep_v from_o the_o sacrament_n all_o their_o day_n 2._o the_o presbyterian_o give_v to_o the_o magistrate_n a_o coercive_a and_o coactive_a power_n to_o suppress_v heresy_n schism_n to_o correct_v troubler_n and_o unruly_a person_n in_o the_o church_n to_o tie_v and_o bind_v man_n by_o their_o authority_n to_o the_o decree_n of_o synod_n make_v according_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n which_o power_n as_o b_o voetius_fw-la show_n only_o the_o remonstrant_n with_o the_o libertine_n do_v not_o admit_v but_o all_o the_o presbyterian_o do_v reject_v such_o opinion_n that_o the_o magistrate_n can_v not_o by_o his_o stringere_fw-la authority_n bind_v and_o compel_v man_n to_o observe_v the_o decree_n of_o synod_n conformable_a to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n ordinem_fw-la now_o do_v you_o allow_v the_o magistrate_n such_o a_o power_n by_o your_o plead_n for_o toleration_n of_o religion_n and_o for_o liberty_n of_o conscience_n and_o that_o conscience_n be_v not_o to_o be_v tie_v and_o by_o your_o speak_n against_o imposition_n of_o thing_n lawful_a and_o agreeable_a to_o the_o word_n as_o set_v form_n of_o prayer_n decree_v by_o synod_n and_o such_o like_a it_o be_v very_o suspicious_a you_o allow_v not_o such_o a_o power_n to_o magistrate_n and_o your_o good_a friend_n â—…0_n m._n s._n in_o his_o answer_n to_o the_o observation_n and_o consideration_n upon_o your_o apologetical_a narration_n plead_v your_o cause_n deny_v and_o plead_v against_o this_o coercive_a power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n 3._o the_o presbyterian_o give_v a_o great_a deal_n of_o power_n to_o the_o supreme_a christian_a magistrate_n in_o the_o reformation_n of_o religion_n and_o in_o repair_v and_o build_v the_o house_n of_o god_n as_o may_v be_v show_v out_o of_o calvin_n zanchius_n peter_n martyr_n etc._n etc._n but_o whether_o the_o independent_o give_v as_o much_o when_o they_o allow_v private_a man_n to_o gather_v and_o make_v church_n and_o minister_n to_o do_v such_o public_a work_n and_o that_o without_o leave_n nay_o against_o the_o mind_n and_o law_n of_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n i_o question_v there_o be_v a_o tractate_n in_o my_o hand_n about_o a_o church_n that_o go_v under_o the_o name_n of_o one_o of_o you_o wherein_o civil_a magistrate_n be_v cut_v off_o and_o minister_n too_o from_o have_v any_o power_n to_o make_v church_n and_o the_o immediate_a independent_a power_n from_o christ_n be_v give_v to_o the_o saint_n only_o to_o gather_v and_o combine_v themselves_o in_o such_o a_o assembly_n without_o expect_v warrant_n from_o any_o governor_n what_o soever_o upon_o earth_n saint_n as_o saint_n have_v a_o right_n and_o full_a power_n to_o cast_v themselves_o into_o the_o fellowship_n without_o ask_v the_o consent_n of_o governor_n and_o civil_a magistrate_n who_o have_v no_o power_n in_o the_o marriage_n of_o their_o people_n nor_o shall_v have_v it_o be_v a_o act_n of_o natural_a civil_a
right_n and_o as_o magistrate_n have_v no_o power_n over_o family-government_n to_o appoint_v who_o i_o shall_v admit_v into_o my_o family_n etc._n etc._n much_o less_o have_v they_o power_n over_o christ_n family_n this_o union_n of_o a_o church_n be_v a_o spiritual_a right_n which_o be_v transcendent_o out_o of_o the_o sphere_n of_o the_o magistrate_n authority_n and_o the_o apostle_n teach_v the_o saint_n to_o do_v it_o without_o ask_v leave_n of_o the_o magistrate_n yea_o not_o to_o for_o sake_n it_o though_o the_o magistrate_n forbid_v it_o heb._n 10._o 25._o now_o i_o believe_v you_o can_v show_v i_o any_o principle_n in_o presbyterial_a government_n nor_o quote_v i_o the_o judgement_n of_o any_o presbyterian_a that_o cut_v short_a the_o power_n of_o the_o orthodox_n protestant_n magistrate_n about_o congregation_n and_o assembly_n as_o this_o do_v 4._o the_o presbyterian_o do_v grant_v the_o magistrate_n a_o power_n about_o the_o public_a exercise_n of_o the_o ministry_n that_o it_o be_v so_o far_o subject_a to_o the_o direction_n of_o the_o magistrate_n that_o without_o his_o approbative_a authority_n or_o confirm_a authority_n or_o his_o toleration_n of_o it_o it_o ought_v not_o by_o the_o church_n to_o be_v public_o begin_v in_o his_o territory_n nor_o practise_a dâ—…decimae_fw-la apollonius_n of_o zealand_n who_o write_v a_o answer_n to_o vedellius_fw-la by_o the_o command_n of_o the_o waâ—…achrian_a classis_fw-la be_v a_o great_a presbyterian_a and_o in_o that_o answer_n must_v needs_o show_v it_o upon_o occasion_n of_o vedelius_fw-la give_v so_o much_o to_o the_o magistrate_n in_o ecclesiastical_a thing_n yet_o he_o grant_v the_o magistrate_n this_o power_n about_o the_o exercise_n of_o the_o ministry_n now_o whether_o your_o principle_n allow_v this_o to_o the_o magistrate_n let_v your_o practice_n speak_v about_o your_o make_v minister_n and_o exercise_v of_o it_o as_o you_o do_v 5._o the_o presbyterian_o grant_v to_o the_o magistrate_n a_o power_n in_o private_a meeting_n as_o well_o as_o in_o public_a church_n over_o exercise_n there_o as_o well_o as_o those_o in_o the_o public_a place_n so_o 4._o voetius_fw-la we_o reject_v that_o novelty_n of_o the_o remonstrant_n that_o the_o magistrate_n have_v no_o power_n in_o private_a meeting_n but_o only_o in_o public_a temple_n now_o whether_o you_o allow_v the_o magistrate_n a_o power_n concern_v your_o private_a meeting_n or_o only_o over_o the_o public_a meeting_n or_o whether_o you_o do_v not_o with_o the_o arminian_n make_v the_o ground_n of_o this_o power_n in_o the_o magistrate_n the_o grant_n of_o a_o public_a meetingplace_n i_o desire_v to_o be_v satisfy_v from_o you_o but_o by_o all_o this_o the_o reader_n may_v see_v in_o these_o particular_n you_o do_v not_o give_v more_o power_n to_o the_o magistrate_n for_o the_o presbyterian_o give_v what_o you_o give_v and_o not_o only_o so_o but_o they_o give_v that_o which_o you_o deny_v and_o so_o give_v more_o than_o you_o but_o brethren_n wherein_o and_o in_o what_o do_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n then_o the_o presbyterian_o have_v you_o express_v wherein_o the_o presbyterian_o give_v too_o little_a to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n and_o in_o what_o their_o principle_n be_v defective_a and_o wherein_o you_o give_v more_o you_o have_v deal_v fair_o and_o ingenious_o and_o a_o man_n may_v have_v know_v where_o to_o have_v have_v you_o and_o how_o to_o have_v answer_v you_o but_o to_o accuse_v thus_o in_o the_o general_a and_o not_o to_o signify_v the_o crime_n be_v not_o just_a but_o as_o you_o do_v throughout_o your_o apology_n under_o the_o figge-leaves_a of_o dark_a doubtful_a general_a speech_n cover_v your_o opinion_n lest_o your_o nakedness_n shall_v appear_v so_o in_o this_o place_n but_o not_o to_o let_v you_o go_v away_o thus_o but_o that_o i_o may_v drive_v you_o out_o of_o your_o hole_n and_o thicket_n and_o divest_v you_o of_o your_o cover_n and_o that_o i_o may_v a_o little_a take_v off_o the_o odium_n and_o suspicion_n that_o presbyterial_a government_n may_v lie_v under_o among_o many_o who_o know_v not_o their_o principle_n by_o reason_n of_o this_o passage_n of_o you_o the_o magistrate_n power_n to_o which_o we_o give_v as_o much_o and_o as_o we_o think_v more_o than_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v i_o will_v propound_v some_o question_n to_o you_o to_o draw_v out_o what_o you_o hold_v about_o the_o power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n in_o ecclesiastical_a thing_n and_o to_o give_v some_o further_a light_n for_o the_o present_a of_o the_o presbyterian_a principle_n concern_v the_o power_n of_o magistrate_n referve_v the_o particular_a lay_v down_o what_o the_o presbyterian_o give_v to_o the_o magistrate_n in_o ecclesiastical_a thing_n and_o what_o not_o till_o my_o rejoynder_n shall_v come_v out_o to_o your_o reply_n 1._o whether_o the_o power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n about_o ecclesiastical_a thing_n be_v a_o power_n extrinsecall_v objective_n coercive_a indirect_a mediate_a accidental_a and_o consequent_a or_o spiritual_a intrinsical_n formal_a proper_a and_o antecedent_n now_o concern_v the_o first_o the_o presbyterian_o give_v as_o much_o to_o the_o magistrate_n as_o you_o nay_o more_o as_o have_v be_v partly_o show_v already_o but_o for_o the_o other_o the_o spiritual_a intrinsical_v formal_a etc._n etc._n if_o you_o ascribe_v that_o to_o the_o magistrate_n as_o i_o think_v you_o do_v not_o nor_o your_o principle_n do_v not_o yield_v it_o unless_o according_a to_o your_o second_o great_a principle_n lay_v down_o in_o the_o 10._o and_o 11._o page_n you_o be_v since_o the_o assembly_n to_o please_v the_o parliament_n the_o more_o as_o you_o may_v imagine_v come_v off_o from_o your_o former_a judgement_n and_o practice_n i_o do_v refer_v you_o for_o satisfaction_n to_o the_o three_o most_o learned_a select_a disputation_n of_o ecclesiastica_fw-la voetius_fw-la and_o unto_o debet_fw-la waâ—…us_o excellent_a answer_n to_o the_o tractate_n of_o uttengobardus_fw-la so_o strong_a that_o the_o author_n can_v never_o reply_v again_o though_o in_o a_o book_n publish_v he_o promise_v to_o do_v it_o and_o unto_o circasacra_fw-la apollonius_n learned_a answer_n to_o vedelius_fw-la dissertation_n 2._o i_o ask_v of_o you_o whether_o the_o civil_a power_n do_v contain_v the_o ecclesiastical_a formal_o and_o eminent_o so_o as_o that_o power_n can_v give_v and_o produce_v the_o other_o or_o whether_o there_o be_v a_o intrinsical_a dependence_n of_o the_o ecclesiastical_a upon_o the_o political_a in_o their_o nature_n form_n and_o exercise_v of_o they_o or_o whether_o there_o do_v not_o reside_v in_o the_o church_n all_o ecclesiastical_a power_n absolute_o necessary_a to_o the_o build_n up_o of_o the_o kingdom_n of_o christ_n and_o salvation_n of_o man_n even_o when_o the_o magistrate_n be_v not_o of_o the_o church_n 3._o i_o ask_v of_o you_o whether_o in_o write_v this_o passage_n of_o your_o apology_n you_o consider_v and_o remember_v all_o those_o difference_n and_o distinction_n give_v by_o so_o many_o excellent_a divine_n as_o junius_n zanchius_n amesius_n etc._n etc._n concern_v those_o two_o power_n civil_a and_o ecclesiastical_a and_o their_o administration_n and_o in_o particular_a among_o the_o rest_n that_o difference_n take_v from_o their_o 4._o matter_n and_o the_o subject_n wherein_o they_o make_v the_o subject_n of_o political_a administration_n to_o be_v humane_a thing_n and_o matter_n but_o of_o ecclesiastical_a to_o be_v divine_a and_o sacred_a and_o if_o so_o whether_o do_v not_o presbyterian_o according_a to_o those_o difference_n and_o distinction_n which_o distinction_n be_v acknowledge_v also_o by_o yourselves_o as_o by_o m._n robinson_n and_o by_o some_o of_o you_o in_o your_o print_a book_n as_o i_o remember_v give_v the_o magistrate_n that_o power_n in_o ecclesiastical_n which_o be_v give_v he_o in_o the_o word_n of_o god_n 4._o consider_v all_o ecclesiastical_a power_n and_o right_n be_v common_o by_o divine_n reduce_v to_o a_o threefold_a head_n namely_o potestas_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d which_o of_o these_o power_n do_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n than_o the_o presbyterian_o or_o in_o all_o of_o they_o do_v you_o give_v more_o or_o do_v you_o not_o for_o the_o present_a that_o power_n you_o seem_v to_o give_v the_o magistrate_n and_o intimate_v it_o that_o you_o give_v more_o than_o the_o presâ—…eriall_a principle_n allow_v as_o may_v be_v gather_v from_o the_o follow_a word_n in_o p._n 19_o &_o from_o those_o word_n in_o p._n 17._o the_o magistrate_n interpose_v a_o power_n of_o a_o other_o nature_n unto_o which_o we_o upon_o his_o particular_a coguizance_n and_o examination_n of_o such_o cause_n profess_v ever_o to_o submit_v and_o also_o to_o be_v most_o willing_a to_o have_v recourse_n unto_o must_v fall_v under_o the_o last_o head_n of_o the_o power_n of_o judge_v and_o determine_v in_o matter_n ecclesiastical_a and_o that_o upon_o