Popes supremacie as dooeth his maister D. Hardyng who hath these woordes It is not good saieth Homere to haue many rulers lette one bee ruler It is true that Homere saieth it is not good to haue many equal rulers ouer one countrey or nation but this maketh nothyng to proue that there should bee one heade ouer all the Churche throughout the worlde excepte D. Hardyng can proue that Agamemnon was kyng of all the worlde or at the least that Homere meant he should so bee but he meante nothyng lesse for he speaketh of the gouernemente of the armie of the Greekes onely And so I graunt it is good likewise that one bishop doo gouerne one diocesse as it was good in Homers iudgemente that one graunde capitaine should gouerne the Greeke armie And thus muche by the waie to D. Hardyng his Poeticall argumente for the Popes supremacie Now seyng it pleased doctor Hardyng to make mention of Aristotle who misliketh not Aristocratie that is to saie the gouernyng of the beste and wisest men beyng a competente number and seyng further that many cities haue been and bee farre better gouerned in Democratie by many rulers chosen of the people then euer was the whole churche by one Pope It is presumptuouslie doen by M. Dorman bothe against his maister doctor Hardyng and against Aristotle so noble a philosopher and to zelously for one Pope to safe thei be all blinde that can not see the necessitie of one onely head gouernour euery where And it maie seme to some that suche kinde of speache doeth not so muche spryng out of absurditie of the matter as out of the disposition of M. Dormans drousie head and dimme sight Let vs in Englande bee in that poincte of the best iudgement and in the beste case as we be in déede vnder so moderate a Monarchie and yet let them withall who haue of long tyme been vnder the quiete gouernemente of many reasonable rulers neither bee starke blind neither though not in so happie a state as are we yet in no vnhappy case as it semeth M. DormaÌ„ would place them But let euery nation citie thinke it self moste happie in that state of regiment that God hath placed it in And concernyng the gouernement of the vniuersall Churche seyng it standeth of so many or rather innumerable thousandes of menne and women of al countries nations and languages throughout the whole worlde so that it can not possiblie be ruled and gouerned by one neither was it by God appoincted to bee by one gouerned no more then the whole worlde it self the seuerall kyngdomes countries thereof being appoincted by God to seuerall kynges and gouernours Yet if it must nedes be gouerned by popes seyng it nedeth many gouernours I would we had many Popes were thei good gouernours but beyng as thei are false vsurpers and cruell tyrauntes one Pope is to many by one Concernyng the auoydyng and quietyng of Schismes and troubles in the Churche we saie that as the seuerall kynges of euery kyngdome the seuerall gouernours of euery countrie and citie c. are able to ouersee their seuerall charges and to kepe their people in ciuill order and peace so are the seuerall Bishoppes of euery diocesse and the seuerall chief prelates of euery prouince able to auoide or to appeace if thei rise all schismes and troubles ecclesiasticall as saincte Cyprian out of whom this reason is borowed and falslie wrested by theÌ„ to an other purpose dooeth moste plainlie teache saiyng thus Cum statutum sit omnibus nobis c. Whereas an order saieth saincte Cyprian is taken emongest vs all and it is right and reasonable that euery mannes cause be there heard where the fault was coÌ„mitted and wheras euery Bishoppe hath a part of the flocke assigned to hym whiche he ought to rule and gouerne and for the whiche he muste gâ—ue an accompte vnto the Lorde it is not conuenient that suche as bee vnder their gouernaunce should runne from one Bishoppe to an other but there to make answere in their causes where thei maie haue accusers and witnesses of their crimes Excepte suche desperate persones thinke the authoritie of Bishoppes in Afrike to bée lesse then is the authoritie of other Bishoppes Thus farre saincte Cyprian with muche more in the same place expresly affirmyng that it is right and reason that seuerall Bishoppes haue the gouernemente of seuâ—rall diocesses euen for the same cause for the whiche you doo vntruely alledge the necessitie of one heade and declaryng the commoditie of pacifiyng of heresies Schismes and dissentions for of them he speaketh in that place and of correctioÌ„ of vices by euery suche seuerall Bishoppe in his owne charge mosie directlie against D. Hardyng and M. Dormans doctrine of pacifiyng of schismes by one onelie head of the vniuersall Churche affirming all suche appellations from a Bishoppe of one countrey to a Bishoppe of an other countrey to be vnlawfull for that all Bishoppes of all countries be of like authoritie and that none but naughtie and desperate menne doo thinke the authoritie of some bishoppes to be inferiour to the authoritie of other And further folowyng D. Hardyng and M. Dormans owne groundes wee saie that as God is the one heauenlie kyng ouer all the worlde and yet hath not appoincted any one man to bee his onelie deputie in earth ouer all the Kyngdomes of the worlde but that the whole worlde is gouerned by his prouidence as the onelie kyng thereof and by the ministerie of many seuerall kynges and rulers whom he hath seuerally appoincted ouer euery nation as his deputies as is expreslie declared in the scripture so in like wise is Christe the onelie heauenlie heade of his Churche and neither neadeth nor hath appoincted any one persone in earth to bee his deputie or vicar generall ouer all the churche throughout the worlde but by his prouidence and the ministerie of many Bishoppes his seuerall vicars in euery diocesse bothe hath and dooth well gouerne his Churche and that as it is impossible that there should bee one onelie earthlie kyng ouer all the worlde as by the state of the worlde from the beginnyng hitherto is moste manifest and in case there were one yet were it impossible for that one to ouersée his charge and to keepe all the worlde in Ciuill order seyng the wisest kinges that be haue of one particular kyngdome their handfull as thei saie so in like maner is it impossible that there should be one generall head in earth ouer the vniuersall Churche or all Churches dispersed throughout all the world conteinyng so many nations so diuerse languages and natures of men or that suche an head could ouersee his charge keepe all Churches from Schismes and troubles and pacifie them when thei were risen This as a thyng tried by the state of the worlde at this daie and euer sith the first beginnyng thereof I leaue to thy reasonable consideration good reader to determine betwixte vs. Dorman Fol. 5. And because good
chased awaie Thus farre sainct Basill Loe M. Dorman who is blasphemed not the bishop of the people as you dooe dreame but our sauiour Christe and the holie ghoste are blasphemed and suche blasphemers are iudged moste worthie to bee bishoppes of the people This is the truthe this is sainct Basilles minde that the blasphemer is made bishoppe of the people and not the bishop of the people blasphemed It is easie to perceiue therefore good readers that this is moste farre from all purpose that he allegeth by patching here and there out of Basilius Magnus his 69 epistle to the Bishoppes of Italie and Fraunce and ouerpassing purposely sentences directly touching the aduersaries them selues where saincte Basill declareth the miserable state of all the Easte Churches euen from Illyrike to Thebaida as he there saieth by reason of the disturbaunce that all good and godlie bishoppes of the saied Easte Churches whiche were of the Greekes for the moste parte suffered by the Arrians whose heresies all the world dooeth knowe how muche wee dooe abhorre And therefore euen the chief of the Papistes can not but therefore muche commende vs. What abuse therefore is this of the readers and of his own and other mennes tyme that M. Dorman should charge vs with the crimes of those menne whose heresies and wickednesse it is well knowen we doo moste detest But as before he abused certaine woordes of S. Cyprian so here because mention is made by S. Basill of these woordes Praesidentias inuadunt prima sedes populi episcopus That is to saie Thei inuade the highest roumes the chief see and the bishop of the people he trusted that the ignoraunte would take the saied woordes as meant of the bishoppe of Rome and his authoritie and of our contempte of the same But bothe this 69. epistle and the epistle folowing by maister Dorman also hereafter alleged dooe manifestlie declare all these woordes to appertaine to the Easte churches and to the Bishoppes of the Easte churches and not to the Bishoppe of Rome and that the chiefe roumes so inuaded bee the Bishoprikes of the Easte churches and not the Bishoprike of Rome and the set of euery of them is that chief see or place proposed for a rewarde of wickednesse and not Rome and that the blasphemous Arrian is that bishop of the people whooÌ„ if maister Dorman will haue to bee the Bishoppe of Rome I will not muche labour to let hym And so all this is altogether impertinent to his purpose to make any shewe for the Popes authoritie or any reseÌ„blaunce of our doinges against the Pope For if he would haue it to perteine to vs as doing the like now as was dooen in sainct Basilles tyme by the Arrians For he saieth it dooeth liuelie represente our tymes why maie not we with as good and more reason affirme it rather to apperteine to the Papistes them selues and moste liuelie to represent their doynges It is their passyng pride and ambition whiche sheweth that thei feare not the Lorde Thei haue inuaded presidences not onelie ecclesiasticall but temporall also hauyng the titles of bishoppes leadyng the liues of temporall Lordes and Princes The more wicked that any of them is the more blasphemous the more likelie is he to clime to the highest place as his due reward Whiche hath been obserued for a rule in the election to the Papacâ—e the higheste place of all this many hundreth yeres What speake I of election For the obteinyng of the whiche highest place among them so many fraudes simonies poisonynges bloudie fightes and murders haue been committed as maie to suche who will read their owne stories well appeare Yea the verse Pope that now is Pius the fowerth dooeth pitifullie complaine that not onelie Simonie and corruption by largition of huge summes of money but also force and armes haue been attempted to depriue hym yet liuyng of his Papacie and to place an other To proceede the authoritie of Priestes is loste emongest the Papistes and turned into temporall lordship The rulers of the clergie among the Papistes can not teache the people thei are so ignoraunt and their liues be suche that thei haue lost their libertie to speake againste vices where of them selues are moste guiltie and the laitie doeth disdaine to bee by suche admonished Where y e Papistes doo beare swaie there are all godlie mennes mouthes stopped by their exceadyng crueltie onely blasphemous Friers haue their tongues at libertie The holie Sacramentes are prophaned by their superstitions the holie woorde of God is corrupted by their gloses and Traditions In summe all holie thynges are by their vnholie dooynges polluted and defiled And thus farre touchyng as muche as is by M. Dorman alledged out of S. Basill and howe it doeth right well agree with our aduersaries Now S. Basill hath more matter whiche maister Dorman hath of purpose ouerpassed as in his owne eares somewhat soundyng of Popishe properties to witte that the authoritie of Priestes was loste for that there lacked in the cleargie suche as could with knowledge féede the Lordes foulde for that thei of the cleargie conuerted the prouisioÌ„ made in the churche for the poore to their owne pleasures kepte not the Canons and rules ecclesiasticall vsed all libertie in sinnyng came to dignities Ecclesiasticall by mennes fauoure more then their owne worthines and so became their bonde men who bestowed vpon suche benefite or benefice This hath also S. Basill in that Epistle Now what ignoraunce of Goddes lawe was in the Popishe cleargie vntill we stirred theÌ„ vp to their bookes what riotous wasting of ecclesiasticall possessions vpon their owne pleasure before we did finde faulte with it what breache bothe of Goddes lawe and of the old Canons Ecclesiasticall yea euen of their owne Popishe decrées also what libertie and impunitie of moste wicked life vntill all the worlde cried out vpon theim what suite simonie and ambition for Ecclesiasticall promocions was emongest the Popishe cleargie how many of theÌ„ for bribes or worldlie fauour were promoted how few for their owne worthinesse was well knowen ouer all Christendome and can not yet be forgotten I am sure therefore that this whole place of S. Basill maie more iustlie be applied to the Papistes then to vs. And it is not vnknowen to M. Dorman that it is in reasonyng the greatest faulte that can bee to bryng that for hym whiche maie bee either common to his aduersaries or returned backe against hymself Wherefore I beseche thee good reader consider the sinceritie of M. Dorman who vpon suche places as are these taken out of sainct Cyprian and S. Basill as it were vpon good and substantiall groundes concluded thus Dorman Fol. I. To be shorte there was neuer yet any heretike emoÌ„gest so many as from tyme to tyme haue continually troubled the Churche of God that made not his firste entrie into his heresies by the proclaimyng as it were of opeÌ„ warre against the beautifull order
Christian readers you shall wel perceiue that this is no newe deuise or fantasie imagined by me I will here laie before your eyes the iudgemente of certaine notable menne whom God gaue to his churche to serue for a wall for the same against the incursions of the wicked Phylistines his enemies In whom you shall moste plainlie perceiue this order in Christes Churche to bee so necessarie that the onelie breach and lacke thereof hath been by theÌ„ taken to be the high waie verie path that leadeth to all heresies Nowell M. Dorman maie bee carelesse no man taketh the Popes supremacie to be his deuise and inuention it is knowen to bee the inuention of the ambitious Popes themselues whom the diuell hath set a woorke to trouble the quiete state of Christendome and to bryng all errours into Christ his Churche and to laie the foundation of the kyngdome of Antichrist Dorman Fol. 5. And firste to beginne with that blessed martyre of God sainct Cyprian hath he not concerning thiâ— matter in an epistle by hym written to Cornelius then bishop of Rome thiese woordes Neque enim aliunde obortae sunt haereses aut nata sunt schismata quà m indâ— quèd sacerdoti dei non obtemperatur nec vnus in ecclesia ad tempus sacerdos ad tempus tudex vice Christi cogitatur That is neither yet truely doo heresies arise or schismes growe of any other cause then thereof that menne obeye not the Prieste of God neither doo thinke that there is in the Churche in the steede and place of Christe one Priest and one iudge for the tyme. Nowell Either M. Dorman had not with sufficient diligeÌ„ce reade and noted that long epistle written by sainct Cyprian to Cornelius Bishop of Rome or els he deepely dissembleth that which he there perceiued For though the epistle be written to Cornelius yet it is for a great parte writteÌ„ of Cyprian hymself and many of the sentences in that epistle yea this verie sentence whiche M. Dorman here alledgeth for Cornelius his supremacie as Bishop of Rome by the tenure of the epistle appeareth to bee written speciallie of saincte Cyprian hymself Bishop of Carthage in Afrike rather then of Cornelius as afterward at large shal be declared And further it appeareth that this sentence and all other sentences of the authoritie of the Prieste or Priestes Bishoppe or Bishoppes for saincte Cyprian in that epistle doeth ofte chaunge the number and sometyme speaketh as of one sometyme as of many or all Priestes and Bishoppes doo indifferentlie appertaine as well to euery and all Bishoppes of all cities and diocesses as to either Cornelius or Cyprian For that he here saith Sacerdoti dei non obtemperatur The priest of God is not obeied is asmuche as Sacerdotibus dei the Priestes of God are not obeied As when the scripture saieth Regem honora honoure the Kyng is as muche as though it had saied Let subiectes of all places honour their kynges Touchyng these woordes Neque vnus in ecclesia ad tempus Sacerdos ad tempus index vice Christi cogitatur that is to saie Neither is one Prieste in the Churche for the tyme and iudge for the tyme in Christes steede thought vpon I haue declared at large before how that saincte Cyprian taketh all Bishoprikes to be but one Bishoprike as the faithes of all men are but one faithe Vnafides saieth sainct Cyprian vnum baptisma vnus episcopus cuius à singulis in solidum pars tenetur There is one faith one Baptisme there is one Bishoprike the whiche euery Bishoppe hath wholie for his parte So that wheÌ„ he speaketh of one Bishoppe one iudge in the churche for the tyme or of the bishop whiche is one and ruleth the Churche absolutelie he meaneth euery Bishop in his owne diâ—cesse without exception if he speake speciallie he doeth meane the Bishop of that citie or diocesse wherof he entreateth whether it be y e bishop of Rome Carthage or any other place For the moste manifest proufe whereof note these woordes of saincte Cyprian to Pupianus who was stubborne againste the saied Cyprian whereof it hath been before entreated Vnde enim schismata c. Whereof saieth sainct Cyprian doo heresies and Schismes spryng but of this that the Bishoppe whiche is one and ruleth the Churche is through the proude arrâ—gant presumption of certain contemned and set at nought and beyng the man by Goddes approbation allowed and honoured is of vnwoorthy men iudged And a little before this place Tâ— te episcopum episcopi iudicem iudicis ad tempus à deo dati coÌ„stituis Thou doest make thy self a Bishop ouer the Bishop and a Iudge ouer the Iudge by God for the tyme appoincted Thus muche saincte Cyprian to Pupianus who despised the saied Cyprian so appoincted by God to be the Bishoppe and Iudge for the tyme as he there saieth Now in his epistle to Cornelius he saieth thus Neque enim aliunde c. Neither doo heresies arise or schismes grow of any other cause but hereof that menne obeie not the Prieste of God neither dooe thinke that there is in the Churche in the steede and place of Christe one Prieste one Iudge for the tyme. Compare now these twoo places together and you shall finde them all one in effecte And that S. CypriaÌ„ nor any other could haue vttred in diuers places one sense more nearelie vnlesse he would haue vsed the same woordes altogether But it is moste manifeste to all men that will reade these epistles that in the first place by the bishoppe whiche is one and ruleth the Churche by the man by Goddes approbation allowed by the coÌ„temnyng of whom heresies and schismes doo spryng and arise by the Bishoppe or Prieste and by the Iudge for the tyme by God appoincted S. Cyprian hymself beyng Bishop of Carthage is ment and by hym that despiseth the saied Bishop is Pupian meant who did despise the saied S. Cyprian Wherefore either it muste folowe that saincte Cyprian is the heade of the vniuersall Churche seyng those woordes whiche by M. Dormans iudgemente appoincted that head apperteine to him orels as the truthe is in déede that any Bishop is called by saincte Cyprian the Bishoppe whiche is one and ruleth the Churche or the iudge for the tyme in the Churche in Christes steede or place for all is one and that then the speciall bishop of that place whiche is intreated of whether it be Rome Carthage or any other is meant and so consequentlie euery Bishop in his owne diocesse is that one Bishop that ruleth in the churche and that iudge for the time in the steede of Christe And that in this place saincte Cyprian meaneth no supremacie of any one Bishop but the equalitie of all Bishops it maie bee moste euident to them that will read the whole epistle and note how ofte he speaketh of all Priestes and Bishops As Sacerdotibus tantus honor conceditur so great honor is geuen to
Priestes and immediatlie before the place by M. Dorman alledged are these woordes Sacerdotalis authoritas Sacerdotum hostes That is to saie the Priestlie authoritie and the enemies of Priestes Also these woordes nexte folowing the same place Sacerdotum collegium mox Sacerdotes i. dispensatores dei the Colledge or companie of Priestes and the Priestes that is to saie Gods dispensers or stewardes If thei will in readyng the epistle note these and many like phrases thei shall easelie perceiue this also whiche M. Dorman alledgeth to be spoken of the authoritie of many and not of one onelie And if it bee to tedious to peruse the whole epistle if the readers will but caste their eye vpon the shorte argument of the epistle written by Erasmus who was no vnskilfull or negligent vewer of the writynges of the olde fathers and whose authoritie M. Dorman vseth in this booke against vs thei shall easilie vnderstande the same Erasmus his woordes in the argument or summe of this epistle are these Ostendit praetereà qualiter sacerdotalis authoritas potestas diuina dignatione firmetur inde abortas haereses nata esse schismata ê™ dei sacerdotibus obtemperare noluerint Saincte Cyprian doeth shewe saieth Erasmus how the Priestlie authoritie and power is by Gods goodnesse established and that heresies and schismes dooe arise hereof that thei will not obey the Priestes of God Thus farre Erasmus who speaketh as you see of the verie place here by M. Dorman alleged And if M. Dorman had read and marked but this shorte argumente of that epistle thereby might he haue vnderstaÌ„ded that this place by hym alleged for the supremacie of one to witte Cornelius as Bishop of Rome perteineth to the authoritie of all the Priestes of God aswell as to hym And that sainct Cyprian meaneth that euery one Bishop should bee ruler onelie in his owne diocesse and that no one Bishop or other manne should bee ruler and iudge ouer all other Bishoppes appeareth by his woordes wherewith he blameth Pupianus for that presumption Tu te episcopum episcopi c. Thou doest make thy self a bishop ouer the Bishop and a iudge of the iudge by God for the tyme appoincted These are sainct Cyprians woordes with whom in this case sainct Augustine doeth agree who as is before noted reporteth and alloweth these woordes of sainct Cyprian Neque quisquam nostrum episcopum se esse episcoporum constituit c. That is to saie none of vs maketh hymself Bishop ouer Bishoppes or doeth by tyrannicall feare force his felowe Bishoppes to the necessitie of obeiyng Seyng euery Bishop hath of his libertie and power his owne free iudgemente as he who can not be iudged of an other neither can hymself iudge an other lette vs then looke all for the iudgement of our Lorde Iesus Christ who alone hath power bothe to place vs in the gouernaunce of the churche and to iudge of our actes Thus farre saincte Cyprian and faincte Augustine by whose iudgemente you see M. Dorman how the Pope hath vsurped a tyrannie ouer other Bishops in takyng vpon hym to be Bishop ouer all Bishops and iudge ouer the Iudges appoincted for the tyme in Christes steede and that you mainteine the saied tyrannie Dorman Fol. 5. Hetherto saincte Cyprian By the whiche woordes good Christian readers it is so euident that there must bee one Prieste in the Churche whom all other muste obeie that the same muste bee taken of vs for iudge here in earth in the steede of Christ that you see I nothyng doubt greate cause to condeÌ„ne the grosse ignoraunce of our late apologie wherein the authors contrary to this doctrine of saincte Cyprian moste impudently pronouÌ„ce that in his Churche Christ our lorde vseth not the helpe of any one man alone to gouerne the same in his absence as he that standeth in neede of no suche help and that if he did no mortall man could be found hable alone to doe the same and finally with the same S. Cyprian who died a holie martyr and is no doubt a sainct in heauen to whom the belief of bothe these twoo articles seemed not onely not impossible but also verie necessarie to liue and dye in the obedience of this Priest and vnder suche a iudge then with a sorte of leude losels in whose Churche beyng a certain secrete scattred congregation vnknowen to all the worlde beside and to their own felowes too is nother heade order obedience neither yet certaine rules or groundes where on to staie to runne hedlong ye wote no more then your guides whither Nowell I trust it is sufficientlie and moste euidently declared that euery Bishop in his owne diocesse is that one Priest whom all must obeie and that this place apperteineth to any Bishop of any place as well as the Bishoppe of Rome But whereas M. Dorman would so â—aine haue these woordes of saincte Cyprian Vnus in ecclesia ad tempus sacerdos c. whiche is to saie one Prieste and one Iudge in the Churche for the tyme in the steede of Christ to proue that there ought to be one heade Bishop ouer all the Churche if that to gratifie M. Dorman were grauÌ„ted hym where vpon he would gather consequentlie that Cornelius as Bishoppe of Rome should bee that one heade as to whom and of whoÌ„ this place is written as M. Dorman thinketh if it be declared by the verie place it self that these wordes bée spoken and meant of saincte Cyprian hymself and not of Cornelius and so consequentlie the supremacie of the Churche by their owne reason to bee remoued from Rome to Carthage in Afrike where no Christian Churche now is maie not M. Dorman D. Hardyng and Hosius who doo al so confidentlie allege this place for the Bishop of Rome his supremacie bee either ashamed of their greate folie or els declare their shamelesse impudencie For declaration whereof I saie that as this thirde epistle of the first booke is written to Cornelius then Bishop of Rome so is a greate parte of the saied epistle written of saincte Cyprian his owne affaires and of the iniuries doen to hymself by the heretikes bothe present in Afrike and of their railinges against him in his abseÌ„ce as appeareth by these woordes about a side of a leafe in folio from the beginnyng of the epistle Quae autem sui elatio quae comminantium tumens inflata ac vana iactatio illic absenti minari cùm hic me habeaÌ„t in potestate praesentem What a presumption of themselues iâ— this what a swelling and puffed and vaine braggerie is this there to mannesse me beyng absente when as thei haue me here presente in their handes By these woordes of S. Cyprian it appeareth euidentlie that here he speaketh of hymself beyng despised and in his absence railed vpon by certaine of his owne inferiours and so goeth on with a longe processe and with many allegations out of the scriptures and reproueth that damnable vice of
and vnder suche a iudge meanyng the Pope of whose supremacie sainct Cyprian neuer dreamed then with a sorte of leude losels in whose Churche beyng a certaine secrete scattered congregation vnknowen to all the worlde beside and to their owne felowes too is neither head order obedience neither yet certaine rules or groundes wheron to staie to runne headlong ye â—ote no more then your guides whither And withall to note in the margent of his booke this to be the definition of the protestantes churche To the which outragious railynges in this and all other places I saie as S. Cyprian in this verie epistle saieth to suche like railers againste hym Multa turpia probrosa ore tuo digna te proferre That thou vttereste many vile and shamefull woordes mete for thine owne mouthe And as S. Augustine euen in the place by M. DormaÌ„ in the first face of his booke alledged doeth saie to Petilian beeyng a weake reasoner but a mightie railer suche as M. Dorman is Tu es maledicus conuiciator non veridicus disputator Thou art an euill tongued railer not a true and pithie reasoner The firste parte whereof M. Dorman hymself doeth in this place and in all the reste of his booke prooue aboundauntlie the weakenesse of his reasonyng partly I haue alreadie and shall hereafter more and as I truste sufficientlie declare Now to the matter I saie our congregation is not so scattered nor so secreate and vnknowen to the worlde as M. Dorman dooeth make it the Pope and his haue bothe more knowledge and feelyng also then likyng thereof And wee take this obiection as no reproche beeyng common to our congregation with the primitiue churche of our sauiour Christ his holie Apostles speciallie in the time of persecutioÌ„ We are not headlesse as you make vs we haue Christ in heauen our Prince in earth vnder hym wee haue orders bothe ciuile and ecclesiasticall and liue as men maie thereafter We doo obeie our naturall Prince and the magistrates and ecclesiasticall prelates vnder our Prince with better conscience then you doo obeie your foraine head the Pope of Rome Wée haue the rules groundes of Goddes woorde and therefore we knowe whither to goe and whervpon to staie whatsoeuer you M. Dorman saie Dorman Fol. 5. But sainct Cyprian was he trowe you of this mind alone No verilie for saincte Hierom is of the same as by thiese his woordes it is moste euident Ecclesiae salus in summi sacerdotis pendet dignitate cuisi non exors ab omnibus eminens detur potestas â—ot in Ecclesia efficientur schismata quot sacerdotes The healthe saieth he and welfare of the Churche dependeth vpon the estimation of the chief Priest who if he haue not authoritie pearelesse and aboue all other ye shall haue in the Churche so many schismes as there be Priestes Nowell It is true that S. Hierome is of the same minde that S. Cyprian was of but neither of them bothe were of that minde that D. Hardyng and M. Dorman bee of that is to witte that either there should be one head ouer all the churche or that the Bishop of Rome should be that head but that euery bishop in his own diocesse is summus sacerdos the high priest ouer his owne cleargie and that one bishop is not superiour to an other Neither hath sainct Hierome in the whole dialogue against the Luciferians asmuche as one woorde that is speciall to the Bishop of Rome onelie but common to all bishops of all places as the learned that will reade the dialogue shall easilie vnderstaÌ„de and as Erasmus in the argumente of the saied Dialogue hath well noted saiyng Liber est in primis lectu dignus quippe qui multa salutaria praecepta complectatur de vita Episcoporum The booke is verie woorthie to be reade saieth Erasmus as the whiche doeth conteine many holsome preceptes concernyng the life of Bishops Thus farre Erasmus For whereas the Luciferians thought that laie menne which had fallen into heresie beyng penitent might be receiued into the churche again but that bishops ought not to bee receiued againe vpoÌ„ their penauÌ„ce except thei were vnbishopped S. Hierome proueth that the bishops also vpoÌ„ conuersion penaunce might be receiued and remaine still bishops And here about is the disputation in the first part of the said dialogue coÌ„teining the one half of the same in the whiche part also is this sentence by D. Hardyng and M. Dorman alleged for the authoritie of one Bishop ouer the whole Churche whiche is by S. Hierome there moste plainly spoken for the authoritie of euery bishop in his owne diocesse But it is expedieÌ„t that I doo note certain of the places out of the said dialogue whiche euidently doo proue that which I saie of euery bishops authoritie doo reproue y e wresting of this place by D. Hardyng M. Dorman to the authoritie of one bishop ouer al the churche Orthodoxus dixit Nescis laicos clericos vnuÌ„ habere christuÌ„ nec alium neophytis aliuÌ„ Episcopis esse deuÌ„ cur ergo noÌ„ recipiat clericos qui recipit laicos peniteÌ„tes That is to saie He of y e right faith said thus Dooest thou not knowe y t aswel thei of the laitie as thei of the cleargie haue both one Christ that suche as be but nouices in christian religioÌ„ haue not one God and bishops an other but that bothe haue one God why should not he therefore receiue theÌ„ of the cleargie who doeth receiue suche of the laitie as bée penitent And again not muche after Luciferianus oro te noÌ„ne legisti de episcopis dictuÌ„ vos estis sal teâ—rÄ™ c. which is to say The LuciferiaÌ„ said I pray thae hast y u not read y t which is spokeÌ„ of bishops you are the salt of the earth but if y e salt haue lost his saltnesse what caÌ„ be salted therwith and so foorth at large Vnto whoÌ„ Orthodoxus aunswereth thus Sit ita vt vis Arrianorum Episcopus hostis Christi sit sal infatuatuÌ„ c. That is to saie Be it so as thou wouldst haue it that an ArriaÌ„ bishop is the enemie of Christ bee it y e he is infatuate or vnsauery salte c. Hitherto out of S. Hierome against the LuciferiaÌ„s Wherby you maie sée y t he speaketh of many bishops or of one heretike bishop as of al of y e same sort Now to come nerer the place by D. Hardyng and M. Dorman alleged wheras the Luciferian thinketh the dignitie of a bishop to be so great that it maie not be reteined by one that hath once been in heresie S. Hierome coÌ„sesseth in déede that bishops be in authoritie aboue al priestes deacons in their owne diocesse but that yet thei maie neuerthelesse after peniteÌ„ce reteine their bishoprikes These be S. Hieromes woordes alitile before the place by M. Dorman alleged Orthodoxus NoÌ„ equideÌ„ abnuo hanc
impudente that he cared not whom he brought or what he saied so he mighte seeme to saie and bryng somethyng were it neuer so farre from or so muche against his purpose Dorman Fol. 5. 6. Leo of whom the whole Councell of Calcedon as one of the greatest for nomber so of all men accoÌ„pted emongeste the fower generall for authoritie reported so honourably that thei did not onely with one voice all openly professe themselues to beleue as he did but called him also by the name of Sanctissimus et beatissimus that is moste holie and blessed of all other speakyng of the misticall bodie of Christes Churche writeth after this sort Haec connâ—xio totius quidem corporis vnanimitatem requirit c This combination and ioignyng together he speaketh of the bodie of Christes Churche requireth an vnitie of the whole bodie but especially of the priestes emongest whom although there be one dignitie common to them all yet is there not one generall order emongest them all For euen emongest the blessed Apostles in that similitude of honor was there yet a difference of power and whereas in their election thei were all like yet was it geuen to one to bee aboue all the rest Out of whiche forme is taken our difference of Bishoppes and by merueilous order and disposition is it prouided that euery one should not chalenge to hymself euery thyng but that in euery Prouince there should bee one whose iudgement emongest the reste of his brethren should bee chief and of moste authoritie And againe certain appoincted in greater cities whose care should be greater by whom to the only seate of Peter the charge of the vniuersall Churche might haue recourse that nothyng might at any tyme dissent from the head Nowell The Councell of Calcedon professed that thei beleued as did Leo concerning the moste blessed Trinitie condemned Eutyches heresie but what is that to the purpose We professe that we doo therein beleue as did Leo and we doo like wise condemne the heresie of Eutyches For that the saied Councell calleth hym Sanctissimum beatissimum the moste holie and blessed what maketh that for his supremacie All the Priestes and deacons of Rome doo call S. Cyprian bishoppe of Carthage Beatissimum gloriosissimum papam the moste blessed and moste glorious Pope as I haue before noted and yet I thinke that M. Dorman will not therefore graunt sainct Cyprian the supremacie But what the Councell of Calcedon graunted to Leo Bishop of Rome or is feigned to haue graunted to hym or what thei graunted equallie with hym to Anatholius bishop of Constantinople and what Leo did like or mislike allowe or reiect of the said Councell I shall haue more conueniente place to declare afterwardes where M. Dorman dooeth more speciallie entreate of the saied councell Now concernyng this epistle by M. Dorman alleged this is first moste euident that the epistles caried about in the names of the firste auncient Popes are either forged or at the leaste corrupted by their ambitious successours of later tyme to make a shewe of the antiquitie of their chalenge of the supremacie and this to bée true is easie to perceiue by many circumstances as shall hereafter at large bee declared But be it that these be Leos owne woordes and were this Leo accompted neuer so holie yet I trust he beyng bishop of Rome maie netther bee his owne witnesse nor iudge in his owne cause of the Popes supremacie The holiest and the beste men that bee are lightly partiall in their owne matters Wherefore Christ our sauiour moste woorthie of all credite saieth Si testimonium perhibeam de meipso testimonium meum non est verum If I beare witnesse of my self my testimonie is not true whiche he saieth for that were his testimonie neuer so true as it was euer moste true yet beyng of hymself it would not be taken of men as true as it appeareth by the woordes of the Phariseis to our sauiour Tu de teâ—pso testimonium perhibes c. Thou say the Phariseis beareth witnesse of thy self thy witnesse is not true If Christes woordes maie not here take place let the Pope then cause this note to be blotted out of his own canon lawe also Papa iudex esse noÌ„ debet in causa propria The Pope maie not bee iudge in his owne cause For it standeth there in vaine as it seemeth To the whiche yet it appeareth that Pighius in the fifte booke of his Hierarchie had a respece for he allegyng a Clementine that is to saie a Popes decree for his purpose hath these woordes Quum Clementinam audis nolo imagineris audire te vnius hominis Romani pontificis in sua ipsius causa sententiam sed cogita te sententiam audire Viennensis concilij in quo ex vniuersa ecclesia conueneruÌ„t plusquaÌ„ 300 episcopi That is to saie When thou hearest the name of a Clementine I would not haue thee to imagine that thou hearest the iudgemente of one man to witte the bishop of Rome in his own cause but consider that thou doest heare the Sentence of the Councell of Vienne in the whiche moe then 300. Bishops were assembled out of the vniuersall Churche Thus farre Pighius Wherby it maie seeme that he dooeth not thinke the Popes onely testimonie in his owne cause to be sufficient D. Hardyng who dooeth folowe Pighius verie muche saieth that he will not allege the testimonies of many Popes for the proofe of the supremacie for that wee doo make though without all cause saieth he exception against the popes as vnlawfull witnesses in their own cause And therefore he is somewhat more shamefaste then M. Dorman and hath onely noted this epistle of Pope Leo whiche M. Dorman thus largely rehearseth and with marginall notes so beautifieth as some speciall place to prooue the Popes supremacie As he laith on loade coÌ„tinually not of popishe witnesses but Popes theÌ„selues witnesses in their owne false claime though he can not dissemble hymself in an other place but that wee maie make exception vnto them as not indifferent witnesses in their owne quarelles Well if these causes of exception to Popes in their own cause whiche I haue alleged shall not seeme to D. Harding and M. Dorman sufficiente I trust yet that all reasonable indifferent men shall iudge them sufficient And for more reasonable cause of exceptioÌ„ to this Leo here and all other Popes too in this matter wee saie that Zozimus or Sosimus bishop of Rome about a. 24. yeres before this Leo moued with an ambitious desire of this supremacie which the bishops of Rome his successours now striue for as it were pro aris focis for life and death as one might saie did corrupte and falsifie the decrees of the Nicene Councell pretendyng that it was decreed in that Councell that the bishop of Rome should be the chief iudge aboue all other bishops that it should
in the scriptures declared to be so by God appoincted so is there no disorder that seuerall churches haue seuerall bishoppes to their heades but is moste necessarie for all good order so to bee And so is that sentence of Nazianzene generally takeÌ„ nothyng against the gouernance of seuerall bishops in seuerall diocesses no more then it is againste the ciuill regiment of seuerall gouernours in seueral countreis For as it is apperteinyng to God onely to our sauior Christ his sonne by their almightie power wisedome to gouerne all y e world all the church so is it enough and to muche for any one man well to gouerne a little parcell therof And so to returne to Nazianzene his saiyng VVhere is no rule there is no order Truthe it is but where one Bishop as one head is in euery diocesse there is some rule therefore there is some order VVhere many rule there is seditioÌ„ It is true if many magistrates haue equall rule in one coÌ„mon wealth or if many ecclesiasticall persones haue equall authoritie in one seuerall Churche wee confesse it is like to their phantasie who would haue many equall Goddes to rule the worlde But one seuerall ruler in one seuerall dominion one seuerall bishop in one seuerall diocesse dooe resemble one God rulyng one whole worlde and one Christ ruling one whole churche so well as earthly creatures maie resemble the heaueÌ„lie creatour But one earthlic man by gouernyng all the whole worlde or the whole churche throughout the worlde to resemble God or Christe is a presumption vnhearde of but onelie in the Pope of Rome Let therefore seuerall rulers and Bishoppes holde themselues contented with seuerall dominions and diocesses accordyng to Gods ordinaunce For it is false that suche seuerall rulers in seuerall places doo cause sedition and it is prooued false by the ciuile gouernemente of diuers rulers in diuers couÌ„treis for so it staÌ„deth for the moste part throughout the worlde at this daie Wherefore M. Dorman and D. Hardyng maie as well saie that the worlde is seditiously gouerned by diuers princes as the Churche by seuerall Bishoppes But as Nazianzene euer dreamed of one Emperour ouer all the worlde to auoide seditioÌ„ though he teacheth there is one God no more did he though he teache one Christe yet euer dreame of one onely head bishoppe or Pope ouer the whole Churche throughout the worlde to auoide schismes as dreamyng M. Dorman phantasieth and thinketh all men that bee awake to dreame too as he dooeth He speaketh further in his sleape and saâ—eth Howe shall wee then saie Our Lorde loueth Syon aboue all the tabernacles of Iacob What this dooeth meane or to what purpose it is I knowe not And I beléeue M. Dorman when he waketh if euer he wake can not tell hymself For Pighius out of whoÌ„ he borowed it is a sleape and neuer will wake to tell his dreame Dorman fol. 7. There is no doubt therefore but that Christe hath prouided for his churche whiche he redemed so dearely as with the expence of his owne moste precious bloud a iudge and chiefe ruler to ende and determine so many controuersies as he knewe should molest and infest the same Thei caÌ„ not saie that are aduersaries kicke againste this truthe that this whiche I allege was in the olde lawe and in a shadowe that these daies and this tyme requier other maners For that argumente hath their Englishe apologie soluted and pronounced that so to saie were Plusquam ridiculum seeyng there was then idem deus idem spiritus idem Christus eadem fides eadem doctrina eadem spes eadem haeredit as ideÌ„ foedus cadem vis verbi dei the same God the same holy ghost the same Christ the same faithe the same doctrine the same hope the same heritage the same couenaunte the same strength of Goddes woorde Nowell M. Dorman is so mightie in reasonyng and hath so many and so good groundes that he is full of conclusions as you sée We graunt Christe hath prouided for his churche so dearely bought and beloued of hym as well as he did for the Iues better too For wheras thei had but one chief bishop for their whole nation he hath by the ministerie of his Apostles prouided euery greate citie euery Diocesse of suche a one that thei maie bee the better gouerned and lesse pained to traueill farre for the decision of their doubtes and controuersies Wherefore in these poinctes wee make no exception to your olde shadowe nor require no new maners But as thei and we haue one God one spirite one Christe one faithe one doctrine one inheritaunce and so foorthe that so in like maner there bee one like ecclesiasticall â—egâ—ment that euery one diocesse countrey or nation haue in like wise one bishop to bee their iudge and determiner of doubtes as had the nation of the Iewes But M. Dorman dealeth not truely with the Apologie The Apologie declareth that the church of God was muche obscured and broughte to a small number emongeste the Iewes and it shâ—weth thaâ— it hath in like wise also been obscured and broughte to a small number emongest Christians The aduersaries of the Gospell who are the corrupters thereof and would haue no corruption nor decaie of the Churche now noted or knowen saie although the Churche of God was obscured and brought to a little number in the old lawe and in the shadowe and figure when nothing was perfite yet can it not be so in the time of the Gospell the tyme of grace and perfection c. The Apologie replieth That defence can not serue for there was the same God the same spirit the same Christ c. then as is now and therefore as the Churche decaied then so maie it and hath it decaied now M. Dorman handleth the matter as though he could prooue by the Apologie that because there was the same God the same Christ the same holy ghost c. in y e Iuishe church as is now therfore must there be one head bishop ouer all the christian churche dispersed throughout y e world as there was one head bishop ouer all y t Iues. Whiche foloweth no more then that we must haue circumcision now for that the Iues had it then Vnlesse M. Dorman thinke he may mingle In lente vnguentum thinges moste impertinent together and prooue quidlibet ex quolibet all thinges of euery thing at his pleasure Dorman Fol. 7. But yet this I proteste that apon the auctoritie of ther Apologie whiche with me is in that conceit that it is with all honest and learned men that is to saie taken as in deede it is for a fardle of lies I am no whitte the bolder to reason thus Nowell Here is at once a protestation and also a confutation of the Apologie For other confutation or answere to it then this and suche like as you shall heare hereafter haue thei not hetherto made Wherefore as iustlie might we chaleÌ„ge all the
this doubt how this argument of yours holdeth As it was in the shadowe so must it be in the body also but al the Iues had one head priest Ergo all christians must so haue also Why this I saie should holde and not the other I would gladlie learne the reason of you at your leisure if there be any other reason then this that you maie take of shadowes what you liste and leaue and refuse what you list and as pleaseth you without al colour or shadow of reason or truthe that ye maie be the children of your Romishe father the Pope with whom as by Daniel was before prophesied of hym and as in his owne Canon lawe is recorded will standeth for reason and so dooeth it with you all in all thynges likewise Now where M. Dorman concludeth thus for his one heade saiyng Haue I proued onely by reason and by examples of common wealthes that there must be one head ouer all Christes churche Haue I affirmed this because sainct Cyprian S. Hierome blessed and holie Leo sainctes in heauen now so saied Saieth not the lawe so too I answere Noforsooth M. Dorman you haue neither proued it by reason nor by examples of cōmon wealthes for bothe all reason and all examples bee againste you and dooe proue and declare that euery particular kingdome dominion citie and companie haue their seuerall gouernours and not all the worlde one earthlie gouernour Sainct Cyprian and S. Hierome say not so but cleane contrarie to your saiyng to witte that euery diocesse euery prouince ought to haue his peculiar bishop to gouerne it And as for blessed and holie Leo though he bee by you adourned with a double epitheton where S. Hierome and S. Cyprian muste bee content with a single S. though you put to the third title too in woorship of the three circles in the Popes Imperiall mitre yet haue I alleged sufficient cause why he cā not serue your tourne And as for the lawe it likewise saieth againste you and your owne witnesse S. Cyprian testifieth that it speaketh against you for the equall authoritie of euery bishop in his owne diocesse and therefore ouerthroweth your supremacie of one heade Bishoppe ouer all And the leudenesse of your collection that because one nation had one head bishoppe therefore must all nations haue one head bishop ouer them is besides so manifest that it needeth no confutation Dorman Fol. 8. But here I knowe our aduersaries will saie that these proofes neded not to proue that christes churche must haue a head and a iudge to order determine doutfull questiōs whiche happē emōgst vs wherof the world is now so full For that will thei say thei know as well as Cyprian Hierome Leo or any of thē all although thei wil not admit the same iudge or the same head that thei doo But what head thinck you good readers appoinct thei to gouerne Christes Churche here in earthe what iudge to determine controuersies Forsoothe the head of the churche thei saie wherein we finde no faulte but say the same our selues is Iesus Christ and the iudge of all controuersies arisyng therin thei call the scriptures Nowell Although you question with the reader as merueiling at the straungenesse of our head yet are we bound to you that you finde no faulte with vs that wee saie Christe is our head as in deede he is the onely head of the catholike or vniuersall churche of all places and ages and none but he alone neither in heauē nor earth what so euer you saie to the contrarie That you dooe thinke it so straunge that wee call the Scriptures the iudge of all controuersies we meruaile not seyng you folowe your owne phantasie in matters of religion directlie against the scriptures But what soeuer you doo or saie we saie and beleue that the woorde of God and of our sauiour Christ ought to be iudge here betweene vs in our daies For it shall iudge both you and vs too in the laste greate daie accordyng to the saiyng of our sauiour Qui spernit me non accipit verba mea habet qui iudicet eum Sermo quem locutus sum ille iudicabit eum in nouissimo die That is to saie He that despiseth me and receiueth not my woordes hath that shall iudge hym The woorde whiche I haue spoken that shall iudge hym in the last daie M. Dormā auoide the contempt that you maie escape the iudgement Dorman Fol. 8. Here suffer me a little I beseche you to shake these maskers out of there cloutes and to make open to the worlde their greate dissimulation and sotteltie whereby vnder the name of Christ his moste holy worde so glittryng at the firste shewe in the eyes of the simple yea perhappes of some of the wiser sorte also that it is to be feared leste it strike them blinde all together thei seeme to haue purchased to them selues a double benefite at once first greate credite by pretendyng and vsyng naie rather abusyng the name of Christ and his worde next greate securitie bothe for ther owne persones and also for all suche diuelis he doctrine as thei or any other heretikes liste to vtter VVhilest on the one side thei take themselues to be out of all checke of man and maie be controlled of none as thei saie but of God onely who if he let thē alone till that tyme that thei thinck he will then bid thei vs let them shifte for thē selues theie shall haue tyme enough in the meane season to preache and teache without controllmente what thei list and on the other side whilest by prouokyng to the scriptures as ther iudge thei thinck themselues to stande apon a sure grounde seyng thei are alreadie with themselues at a poinct to receiue no other interpretation thereof then shall make for ther purpose and thei also see that emongest so many heresies as haue hetherto troubled the churche of God there was neuer yet any one so horrible and absurde that the author thereof hath not by this meanes in his owne iudgement been right well able to susteine defende Nowell Holde not the man for Goddes sake he seemeth to phantasie that he is plaiyng his parte in the stage and wil by priuilege of his office vnuisour and vncase some of his plaie felowes to make sport and to mooue laughter But where he calleth Christ and the scriptures our cloutes I would he wist we reioyse of those cloutes as muche as dooeth M. Dorman either when he is in a glorious golden Cope with a paire of glitteryng gilte Censers in his handes perfumyng and withall woorshippyng a golden God no boliar nor wiser then the golden calfe or when he is in his robes on the scafolde and plaiyng his part in a Christmas game and I trust he shall sooner reueste himself againe in these his royall robes then plucke vs from Christe our head and from the scripture our iudge whiche he calleth our cloutes Good
erat sancta quę apud impios non erat Nunc autē aut tales aut peiores facti sunt Christiani quales sūt hęretici aut gentiles adhuc autem maior continētia apud illos inuenitur quamuis in schismate sint quà m apud Christianos Qui ergo vult cognoscere quae sit vera ecclesia Christi vnde cognoscat nisi tantummodo per scripturas Sciens ergo Dominus tantam confusionem rerum in nouissimis diebus esse futuram ideo mandat vt Christiani qui sunt ī Christianitate volentes firmitatem accipere verae fidei ad nullam rem fugiant nisi ad scripturas Alioqui si ad alia respexerint scandalizabūtur peribunt non intelligentes quae sit vera ecclesia That is to saie Let them that bee in Christianitie flie to the scriptures And wherfore ought al Christians at this time to flie to the scriptures Because in this time sith heresies possessed those Churches there can bee no proofe of true christianitie neither can there be any other refuge of Christians desiryng to knowe the true faithe but the diuine scriptures For before it was declared by many meanes whiche was the true churche and whiche was Gentilitie but now thei who would knowe whiche is the true churche can knowe it by no meanes but onelie by the scriptures Why so For all these thinges whiche are properly Christes in y e truth the same hath heresie also in schisme Heresie hath churches likewise and the diuine Scriptures likewise Bishops likewise and other orders of clearkes Baptisme likewise the sacramente of thankes geuyng likewise and all other thinges to conclude euen Christ himself He therefore that would knowe whiche is the true churche of Christ how can he knowe it in so greate cōfusion of likelihoode but onely by the scriptures Further the churche of Christ might be knowen before by the maners of it when the conuersation either of all or of the moste parte of Christians was holie whiche was not so emongest the wicked But now Christians are become either suche or woorse then be the heretikes or Gentiles yea there is greater continencie emongeste them though thei bee in schisme then is emongest the Christians He therefore that would knowe whiche is the true Churche of Christe how can he knowe it but onelie by the scriptures The Lorde therefore knowyng that in the last daies there would be so greate confusion of thinges dooeth commaunde that Christians whiche be in Christianitie willyng to haue the suertie of true faithe dooe flie to no other thing but to the scriptures Els if thei haue respecte to other thynges thei shall stumble or faile of the truthe and perishe not vnderstāding whiche is the true churche Thus farre that aunciente author whose sentence and verie woordes though for auoidyng of prolixitie alittle intermitted I haue truely rehearsed You maie see that this auncient writer will not allowe that you beeyng the one partie should claime to your self the name of Christians the name of the churche the names of bishops and the names of the cleargie and so to take vpon you as iudges to condemne the other partie but that bothe you and wee must be iudged and tried whether we be in Christianitie and in the true church by the scriptures You see the names of the churche of Bishops and cleargie whiche are common to heretikes with Christians can not prooue you to bee catholikes for that heretikes vse the same names but that bothe you and wee muste knowe by the Scriptures whether wee bee in the true faithe or no for that as he saieth in this confusion of thinges bothe the true churche and the true faith must bee knowen by the Scriptures onelie and by no other thyng and that whosoeuer goeth aboute otherwise to knowe them shall stumble and perishe Wherein this author dooeth agree with S. Augustine S. Hierome S. Chrysostome and with all the olde Doctours of the auncient churche Whereby al men maie well vnderstande that it is not our newe opinion as M. Dorman would haue it seme but the olde true perswasion of all the auncient doctors and godly fathers of the primitiue churche that the Scriptures as moste indifferent and certaine ought to be iudges in controuersies in religion rather then Doctours then Councelles then your Churche then dead menne then angelles yea that the scriptures should bee iudge and not thei And that the true sense of scriptures if doubte rise thereof maie bee and must be gathered by the conference of the scriptures who doo clearly expounde themselues For the declaration whereof the said doctors doo so often and largely write that the rehersall thereof would fil an huge volume but I did thinke that this much would suffice But you Papistes will neuer allowe the Scripture as iudge nor the sense thereof to be certaine vntill it come to the exposition of the Churche and you will bee that churche that must so expounde it your self that is you will graūt no sense to be true but your own sense But wee deny that you are the true Churche that hath this autoritie of determinyng of the sense of the scriptures And if you will saie still your are the churche neither will nor can proue it but onely by so saiyng we be not so voide of all sense and vnderstāding but that we perceiue you will haue no sense but your owne and that you will be still bothe parties and iudges in your own causes againste vs as the Iuishe high Prieste Phariseis and Scribes would needes be against Christ and his Apostles who did by your iudgemēt as it semeth allege the scriptures for themselues againste the saied high Prieste Scribes and Phariseis in vaine for that thei being the churche as you now be were the iudges of the sense of the saied scriptures by Christ and his Apostles alleged And I am sure that the high Prieste with his Iuishe churche was able to saie as muche for the ordinarie succession of the high Priestes his predecessours euen from Aaron vntil his time for antiquitie for consente and for vniuersalitie againste Christe and his Apostles so fewe in comparison and as it seemed latelie starte vp as you are able to saie for your churche or against vs. But yet we doo thinke that the woorde of God as it was alleged by Christe and his Apostles against the saied high priest and his churche so maie it and ought also to be alleged by vs against your high priest and your churche and that the same woords of God whiche shal iudge bothe you vs in the worlde to come as is saied ought also to be iudge betwéen you and vs here in this transitorie worlde for so dooeth our sauiour Christ teache so doo S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Hierome with all the auncient doctors of the Churche teache also as hath been partely besore specified crie you neuer so muche to the contrarie and make you neuer so many exceptions to the scriptures and claime
the moste blessed Trinitie to the Popes vsurped supremacie minglyng vs in lente vnguentum to witte matters moste impertinente together might moste iustlie bee blamed in this place therefore sauyng that he dooeth so in all places Finallie I would haue thee good reader to note that as S. Hierome would not knowe Vitalis and Meletius for that thei were forainers and not his owne bishops for that they taught false doctrine and therefore were not of Christ but of Antichrist and for that they were of a straunge language so haue we the same causes altogether not to knowe but to refuse the bishop of Rome and moe too as this specially that he being a forainer would vsurpe suche a supreame authoritie or rather cruell tyranny ouer vs with whom of right he hath nothing to doo Dorman fol. 14. Tell them boldely vvith S. Austen that yovv vvill ovve neither sute nor seruice to their chaire of pestilēce nor be a member of that body that either lacketh a head and is a dead tronke or hath many and is a liue monstre Novvell Be bolde and blushe not M. Dormā as boldly to belie S. Augustine as ye streight before haue dealt with S. Hierome For neither be the woords you doo reherse S. Augustines neither are the greatest part of them to be found in the place by you noted nor y e woordes which be in that place whiche you haue noted whose so euer they bee make ought for your purpose or against vs. You should haue done more simply had you alleaged a proufe for your headles trunke or liue monstre out of Pighius Hosius Pope Boniface his Extrauagants there shall you in déede finde for your purpose for much adoo is made there to saue the Popishe churche as hauing two heades one in heauen an other in earth as they say from being a liue monstre Erasmus being no simple iudge of the true and counterfeite writinges of the olde doctours in his preface before the booke De quaestionibus veteris noui testamēti intitled vntruly to S. Augustine doth by diuersitie of S. Augustines phrase and the phrase of that book probably and by very barbarous and false Latine vsuall in that booke vnaccustomed to S. Augustine certainly and by sundry doctrines in that booke most contrary to S. Augustines doctrine in his bookes vndoubtedly prooue that it is not S. Augustines worke so that it were to muche impudencie for any man but onely Hosius and M. Dorman to alleage it for S. Augustines The woordes of that authour who so euer he was a little more largely rehearsed by Hosius than by you M. Dorman leaste it myght appeare you had followed him to neere are these Eorum qui extra ecclesiam vel contra ecclesiam sedes suas instituerunt Cathedram pestilentiae dicimus Qui enim inconcessa praesumit c. We saye that the chaire of them whiche haue made them sees without or against the churche is the chaire of Pestilence He that presumeth vpon vnlawfull thinges is guiltie howe muche more if he also corrupte the tradition of him whose seate he vsurpeth For they trouble the order begunne of Peter the Apostle and kept to this tyme by the continuance of Bishoppes succeedyng chalenginge to themselues ordre without origine that is to saye professinge a bodye without an head Wherefore it is agreable their seate also to appeere to be the chayre of Pestilence Thus farre that incerteine author alleged by Hosius and nowe by M. Dorman for S. Augustine First if you woulde haue this place to make for you against vs you must proue your selues to be the true churche of Christe which you shall neuer be hable to dooe being in deede the Synagoge of Antichriste Further it appeareth by these woordes vvhose seate he vsurpeth meaninge Peters seate that this was writen in later times against some Antipope wrongfully chosen and intruding himselfe into the Bishoprike of Rome For it hath been no noueltie for these .iii. or .iiii. hundreth yeres to haue .ii. or .iii. Popes at once one chosen at Rome by some Cardinalles an other at Auinion by other some Cardinalles the thirde in a thirde place appointed by the Emperour and one to keepe his Papal see at Rome an other at Auinion in Fraunce the third at Rauenna in Italie or some where els And so some writer in fauour of him by like that was chosen and kept residence at Rome hath written this against some other that vsurped Peters seate and so they beynge many at one time troubled the order of the succession of one after an other begunne at Peter and so continued till such discorde came in by those who settinge vp an other chaire and so not sitting in Peters chaire sate as he saieth in the chaire of pestilence Howsoeuer it be the mater can not be applied to vs who doo not vsurpe Peters chaire Further what woord is there here to proue y e chayre of Rome to be the head of y e vniuersall church but rather to be the head of that peculiar church of Rome onely where Peters successours haue cōtinued Such kinde of head gouernour as we doo not denie euery bishop to be in his own diocesse so yet subiect to his prince as y e bishop of Rome ought to be to y e Emperour his lord To proceede we hauing Christ to be our head our church is no dead trunke as lacking an head and hauing him our head onely other his ministers our gouernours vnder him our churche is no liue monster as hauing many heades no more than our cōmon wealth hauing God the only head in heauen our prince his seruant our head gouernour in earth is therefore a liue monstre or the whole worlde hauing God to his head is therefore a dead truncke because it hath no one onely earthly head nor can haue any such no more can the vniuersall churche throughout the whole worlde haue any suche one earthly head Wherefore as M. Dormā would gather our church to be a dead truncke for that we will not graunt one onely head in earth ouer all the churche though we graunt Christe to be the onely head therof as in déede he is so let him gather in like wise that the whole world is a dead trūcke for that it hath no one onely head in earth though it haue God for his head in heauen and so he may cōclude that god and Christ the authours of life be no heades or no such heades as can saue the bodies whereof they be heades from being dead trunckes except the saide bodies haue a false vsurper from Rome to be their head besides and to geue them life And had M. Dorman had so muche leasure from his diuinitie matters as to haue looked better vpon his notes of the Canon lawe his peculiar studie he would haue bene better aduised than to haue called vs Acephalos headles and therfore dead trunckes who doo obey our owne Prelates seing Acephali as is there
haue raigned but not by me thei haue been Princes and I haue not knowen them And if suche seueral testimonies of doctours maie not serus vs if we for further proufe bring a number of doctours ioinctly agreyng together forbiddyng bishops suche tyrannicall dominion ouer the churche of God as did saincte Cyprian in the Councell of Carthage with the allowance of the whole Councell then and with the approbation of saincte Augustine afterwarde and an other whole Councell also The woordes spoken by saincte Cyprian in the saied Councell and by so many Bishops and Doctours allowed are these Nemo nostrum episcopum se episcoporum constituit aut tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitateÌ„ collegas suos adigit quando habeat omnis episcopus pro licentia libeitatis potestatis suae arbitrium proprium tanquà m iudicari ab alio noÌ„ possit cum necipse possit alterum iudicare That is to say None of vs maketh hymself Bishop ouer Bishops or doeth by tyrannicall feare force his felowe Bishops to the necessitie of obeiyng seyng euery Bishop hath for his libertie power his free iudgement as he who can not be iudged of an other neither can himself iudge an other Bishop Thus farre saincte Cyprian and saincte Augustine Wee shall profite I saie no more by the allegations of Doctours yea or whole Councelles thaÌ„ by the allegation of the Scriptures themself againste the Popes saiynges or doynges what so euer thei bee Neither the texte of the scriptures nor the interpretation of Doctours nor iudgementes of Councelles can haue any credite againste hym For as Pighius the principall Doctour of the Popes part saieth In concilijs vniuersalibus vniuersis haud ferè aliud factum est quà m vt conuenientes ex toto orbe episcopi praeiudicatam iam Apostolicae sedis vnanimi consensu amplexarentur sequerentur sententiam nec in eis definitum aliquid quod non iam praeiudicatum antè definitumque esset à sede Apostolica That is to saie In all generall Councelles for the moste parte nothyng els is doen but that Bishops comyng together out of all partes of the worlde should embrace and folowe with agreable consent the foreiudged and afore determined sentence of the Apostolike see and that nothyng was defined in suche generall Councelles the whiche was not before defined and foreiudged by the Apostolike see Thus farre Pighius who also affirmeth in the same place that the onely iudgement of this one see is more sure then the iudgement of an vniuersall CouÌ„cell of the whole worlde Wherby it maie well be vnderstaÌ„ded what labour and coste euen by the Papistes themselues is loste and how in vaine their Bishoppes take suche paine to come to Councelles out of all partes of Christendome leauyng their cures vncared for and vnlooked tos and that sometyme a sorte of yeres together as of late thei haue doen in the laste Tridentine councell onelie to determine thynges alreadie determined and that therefore thei should like wise men keepe themselues at hâ—me and spare suche trauell and coste and onely herken what is pronounced out of that sacred mouth of the Pope at Rome and it to obeye absolutely And the same Pighius afterward in an other place saieth expresly Huic sedi authoritas componendi definiendi exortas i domo ecclesiastica vniuersas questiones controuersias ab eodem Christo est data tibi verò illius definitionibus iudicijs absque vlla discussione est imposita obsequendi necessitas That is to saie The authoritie of orderyng definyng and determinyng of all questions and controuersies risen in the Churche is geuen by Christe to this see of Rome and vpon thee is laied a necessitie of obeiyng all definitions and determinations of the saied see without any examinyng or discussing of y e same These be Pighius woordes also No meruaile therefore if you doo well coÌ„sider the premisses that M. Dorman calleth the Popes supremacie the fundation of al. Naie it is the fundation superstruction batilmentes garnishinges and all together it is all and all in all For were this one article of the Popes supremacie with the appurtenauÌ„ces as I haue said once obteined you neede not to trauell in writyng any more you neede not to bryng any proufes out of the scriptures Doctours or Councelles for you or againste vs any more for it were concluded at once that you be the Catholikes who doo acknowledge the necessitie of obeiyng the voice the determinations and definitions of that high Prieste without whattes or whies without discussyng or examinyng of them by your selues or with others and that we bee the heretikes who doo not obeye his voice beyng against Goddes voice but are so bolde to examine how his voices doo agree with Gods voice And therefore are we worthie to dye moste cruell death due to suche false heretiques Graunte this one proposition of the Popes supremacie with the appurtenaunces I saie and by and by all that M. Dorman hath hitherto most leudlie alledged or shall alledge hereafter for the Popes supremacie is to the purpose all lies he hath alreadie made and shall hereafter make for that purpose are truthes And whatsoeuer we saie to the contrarie what scriptures what Doctours what Councelles so euer we bryng all is to no purpose nor of any credite for he alone is iudge whose the cause is he alone as your greate Doctour Pighius saieth is more to be beleued then a generall Councell of the whole worlde assembled And therefore hath M. Dorman doen like a wise manne to entreate first of the Popes supremacie and in the treatie thereof to spende more paper ynke more oile and labour as thei saie yea twise as muche as he hath doen in the other three principall matters though otherwise the greatest of all other as touching euen the verie Masse it self whiche as it hath hitherto susteined the Pope and all his Cleargie so if the Pope doo not now by his supremacie and irrefragable authoritie susteined by maister Dorman like a friende at néede susteine the Masse againe it maie come to passe that bathe Pope and Masse will come to nought shortly Now foloweth the diuision of M. DormaÌ„s treatie Dorman fol. 4. In the handlyng whereof I purpose God willyng to take this order Firste before I come to the principall poincte that lieth in question betwene vs whiche is of the bishop of Romes supremacie to proue to you by moste plain and euident reasons that the Churche of Christe here militante in earth muste of necessitie for diuerse and sondrie vrgent causes haue one chief heade and ruler vnder Christe to rule and gouerne the same Secondarily that that one heade muste needes bee a Prieste Thirdlie so last of al that of all priestes the bishop of Rome is he whiche must supplie that place and that for so that is head ruler of the churche he hath byn of the auncient couÌ„cels olde fathers within the first sixe
hundred yeres after Christes departure taken Nowell And I folowyng your order M. Dorman doo affirme and will proue the contrarie to all and euery pointe of your diuision that is to witte Firste that it is not profitable muche lesse necessarie that the Churche of Christe here in earth should haue one chief heade and ruler vnder Christe to gouerne the same and that for diuers and sundrie vrgent and moste weightie causes Secondarilie that no prieste can bee any suche one heade of the Churche here in earth Thirdly that of all priestes the bishop of Rome can not be that heade for that he is no Bishop but rather a temporall vsurper and tyraunte contrary to Gods expresse woorde and that all suche places as are by you M. Dorman and others alledged out of the scriptures and doctours for the said bishop of Rome his supremacie apperteine nothyng at all to that purpose Dorman fol. 4. That Christes Churche here in earth must of necessitie haue one chief heade and gouernoure vnder Christe to rule the same Nowell M. Dorman doeth well begin with this part firste to proue that there must of necessitie be one chief heade and gouernour of the whole Churche vnder Christ for if there ought not to be suche an one heade and gouernour at all he did well perceiue that consequently the bishop of Rome could not be that head and gouernour Wherefore it being throughly proued and manifestly declared that M. Dorman faileth in the proufe of this first pointe as I doubt not but it shal bée so proued and declared I truste that all wise men shall vnderstande that this first and principall part and staie of the whole beyng ouerthrowen his whole treatie of the bishop of Rome his supremacie shall altogether fall to grounde with it without any further batetrie to y e same or vnderminyng thereof to be made Dorman Fol. 4. The truthe of this proposition good christian readers is not onely by the whole order and forme of the estate of Gods people in the olde lawe whiche was also the true churche of God long before the comming of our sauiour into this worlde but by the daiely experience also of câ—uile and politike gouernement most manifestly confirmed Nowell Of the estate of Gods people in the olde lawe who as thei were one seuerall people so had thei one highe prieste what can you gather further but that likewise in euery Diocesse or countrey it were good to haue one chief prelate or bishop to rule in the cleargie Whiche we denie not nor euer did deny But of this matter M. Dorman geueth vs occasion to saâ—e more hereafter Dorman Fol. 4. For who is there so blinde that he seeth not that in the whole frame of this worlde there is no kyngdome so mightie no realme so puissant no citie so populous no toune so wealthie yea on the contrary parte also no village so little no family so small finally no so cietie of men no not of those that haue wrapped them selues in league to robbe and spoile that can any while continue without a heade to gouerne them If therefore to liue vnder the gouernment of a heade be a matter of suche importaunce as without the whiche neither great nor little riche nor â–ª poore good nor badde can stande how muche more necessarie shall wee thinke it in Christes Churche here militant in earth where the diuell in his members is coÌ„tinually occupied in raising of schismes in stirryng vp discorde to vexe and molest the people of God to haue this wholesome prouision for the appeasyng thereof and the restoryng of the same beyng troubled to quietnesse againe Nowell This reason he had in D. Hardyng his booke who borowed it of Pighius whiche beyng taken out of S. Cyprian his epistle to one Pupianus thei haue violeÌ„tly wrested to a wrong sense For S. Cyprian maketh this reason directlie againste them for the proufe of his owne authoritie being bishop of Carthage and for the authoritie of euery Bishop in his owne diocesse Now to the matter VVho is so blinde ê™ M. Dorman now surely I truste no man is so blinde but he can see that M. Dorman reasoneth blindlie and without all reason gatheryng thus that because euery kyngdome hath his seueral kyng euery people citie toun village house yea euery companie of the eues robbers haue their seuerall gouernour or heade put to and you will also as dooeth saincte Cyprian out of whom D. Hardyng and M. Dorman vndiscreatly tooke the occasion of this argument euery hiue of Bees hath his capitain Bee therefore should it folowe that all Churches or the whole churche dispersed throughout the whole world muste haue one heade You should M. Dorman if you would haue reasoned reasonably haue taken aswell saincte Cyprian his conclusion as you haue taken his antecedent and haue concluded with him Ergo in like wise euery diocesse and euery Churche ought to haue their seuerall heade prelate or bishop who is to bee obeyed by all their owne cleargie and wee would haue graunted the coÌ„sequencie and consequent as thei saie For by this meanes saincte Cyprian concludeth that Pupianus did wickedlie in disobeiyng sainct Cyprian hymself who was his bishop But neither saincte Cyprian nor any other learned man doth vse these examples or similitudes any where to proue that there ought to be one head or gouernour ouer all churches or the vniuersall churche but hath the cleane contrary saiyng thus Singulis pastoribus portio gregis ascripta est quam regat vnusquisque gubernet rationem sui actus domino redditurus That is to saie A portion of the Lordes flocke is appointed to euery pastour by himself the which euery one ought to rule gouerne who shall geue accompte of his doyng to the Lorde And so foorth moste plainlie againste the supremacie of one and for that due gouernmente of euery bishop ouer his owne ture This is saincte Cyprian his reason this is his conclusion M. Dorman But if you like your conclusion so well that you will nedes coÌ„clude that there ought to bee one generall heade of all Churches you must thus begin As there is one generall gouernour or kyng ouer all the worlde one generall head ouer all people all cities tounes villages and houses one capitaine thief and robber ouer all thieues and robbers one kyng Bee ouer all hiues of Bees throughout the whole worlde so muste there bee one onely heade in earth ouer all Churches throughout the worlde But as no man is so blinde but he seeth the falsehood of this antecedent so is I trust no man so blinde but he séeth the absurditie and inconsequencie of your former conclusion of one generall heade ouer all Churches gathered out of an antecedent and vnlikely similitude of the seuerall gouernours that euery kyngdome countrey people citie and toune and euery companie of menne seuerally haue I merueile he alledged not Homer the Poete and Aristotle the Philosopher also for the