the visible Church This matter Master Barrow hath beene as throughly pursued by the Papists as euer you or any Donatist shall be able and such answere they haue receiued from the Churches that haue made separation from them as that they haue no cause to glory The ten Tribes remayned still in some sorte the visible Church and vnder the Couenant as I haue prooued before but yet they were not such a true Church as men might ioyne withall in their worship and therefore when Ieroboam had set vp the golden Calues the Leuites departed from them and went to Ierusalem 2. Chron 11. 23. 14. Then you come to expound how this may bee taken that Antichrist shal sit in the Temple of God And first as you take it his sitting in the Temple of God may be vnderstood as in regarde that he tooke his originall before he was reuealed Let any simple man looke vpon the wordes of Saint Paul and see whether he speake of any such close sitting Then that he should sit where sometimes the true Churches haue beene which hee should so destroy and waste as there should be no shape or steps of any of them left vpon the earth as it was foretolde Matth. 24 29. Reuel 6. 14. See what two places Master Barrow hath found to proue Antichrist should vtterly destroy the visible Church These be the wordes And immediately after the oppression of those dayes the Sunne shall be darkned the Moone shall not giue her light and the starres shall fall from heauen and the powers of heauen shall be shaken This is spoken of Christs comming to iudgment and is meant indeed of the Sunne the Moone and stars themselues and therefore most foolishly concluded that Antichrist shall vtterly destroy the visible Church And for the place in the Reuelation The heauen departed away as a booke that is roled vp you may euen as well conclude that the whole Church in the world vtterly fayled as to say therefore Antichrist vtterly defaced the visible Church And if you will haue the matter tried by so darke a place your light had neede to be great But your pretiest reasons of all are yet behinde Antichrist shall be lifted vp aboue all that is called God this can not be done by any Minister in the Church seeing euery soule must bee subiect They say it will weary an old bodie to followe a Child vp and down all day that can newe goe I am sure it will weary any man to follow you Master Barrow in all your trifles God commandeth euery soule shall submit it selfe vnto the higher powers doth it here vpon follow that if a king vsurp that which belongeth to God they must therein â—â—ay him so long as he remayneth their king Also when it is sayd that he is God you say what blasphemie will not insue if this should be literally taken It may as well be inforced say you by this place that Antichrist is God as that the place where he raigneth is the Temple of God You will not haue this place expounded literally and then what shall we make of it or howe shall we finde Antichrist May he not be the Turke or some other If the Papists could proue yâ— which you speake but with some little shew how much would they glory For grant theÌ„ a mysticall sense of these words and they will carie it whither they list To exalt himselfe aboue all that is called God is literally spoken and literally fulfilled when the Pope exalteth himselfe aboue all Kinges and Emperours which are called Gods So that he shall sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God What blasphemie is it which will ensue if these wordes bee all construed literally after the Grammaticall sense The wordes doo not import that he shall bee God indeede but that he shall take that to himselfe which belongeth to the most high God The thing which deceiueth you Master Barrow is in the word shewing for euery thing that a shew is made of is not so in truth There is a true shew and there is a false shew when one doth arrogate that to himselfe and bâ—ast of it which belongeth not vnto him As Antichrist vsurping not onely an earthly dignitie but euen the high power and authority of God is therefore sayd to shewe himselfe to bée God And now wheras I stand vpon this that the Church of England was a true Church of God before popery and that in popery it stood a member or part of the vniuersall visible Church fo farre as the remnants of Christs Church remained not vtterly defaced by Antichrist that the casting out of Antichrist and his lawes and vsurped power is not the beginning but the restoring and repayring or recouering a Church from miserable desolation And as Iosias and other godly kings of Iuda by terrour of punishment draue Idolaters which outwardly stood vnder the Couenant being cyrcumcised from false worship vnto the lawes of God so Quéene Elizabeth hath done with her subiects being baptized and thereby bound to renounce false worship and to imbrace the holy doctrine of the Couenant Here you say that to make my conclusion follow I must proue and make euident demonstration by Scripture that the Church of England was rightly gathered vnto and established in that holy fayth and order which Christ hath left vnto his Church in vniuersall and particular according to the rules and examples in his Testament Next that they fell not away froÌ„ this holy fayth in the time of popery and that now they continue and faythfully walke in the same fayth and order If I had done this you say I had powerfully conuinced and stopped the mouthes of all Schismatikes for euer I sée you can make your mach wisely Master Barrow I must make euident demonstration by the Scriptures of what of that which was not mentioned by the Scriptures For there is no particular mention of planting the fayth of Christ in England If wee shew it out of auncient records then doe I not saâ—ilfie your desire at all Agayne it must be shewed by the Scriptures that the Church of England receiued orderly the fayth and order of Christ not onely in generall but in euery particular This is a surer knot than the former And me thinkes you should bee a little more kinde for the honour of your countrey not that any honour is to be rendred against truth but whereas you confesse that a true Church may erre in diuers things so that it be not conuinced sinne obstinately If the planters of the fayth and discipline of Christ in England did erre it some things which yet you know not how can you tell but that they did it in simplicitie wee sée that in auncient times and of late dayes GOD hath had many Children in England which haue been begotten and nourished vp in the land and haue acknowledged her their mother And we are sure herevpon that God hath put his couenant of mercy
hath the Church of England beene duly conuinced It is out of all doubt that men which erre may â—e conuinced by any particular persons whatsoeuer for it is the power and light of Gods word onely which conuinceth but that which maketh men to be cast forth as heathen for obstinacie when they are conuinced is not as I haue shewed obstinacie agaynst pryuate admonitions but the despising the iudgement and power of the Church when she hath conuinced and reproued So that your passage is here agayne stopped and ye are cut off but yet I will follow ye in this yeelding this scope to see when or who they be of particular persons which haue duely conuinced the Church of England and al her assemblies of such errors First for the martyrs in our Church yee haue set them vpon the shore safely landed out of all danger of wilfull obstinacie for pag. 181. thus ye write These godly martyrs so lately escaped out of the smoakie furnace of the popish Church coulde not so clerely discerne and sodainely enter into the heauenly and beautifull order of a true established Church And those godly men being so vnexpert and vnexercised in his heauenly worke neuer hauing long liued in seen or heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church vpon the earth of so many hundreth yeares neuer since the generall defection of Antichrist no meruaile I say if they erred in setting vp the frame But what then should we persist in their errors especially should we reiect the true patterne of Christs Testament c. Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow in which the reader may see that ye haue as I say landed those godly men out of all daungers which set vp the frame of our Church because they did as you say nay they could see no better But our Church now can not be excused because she hath reiected the heauenly patterne being brought Indéede I am of this minde to answere your wordes as they lye that right excellent men come short in some things about the ordering of Gods Church and especially at the beginning because time is a teacher But those men were not so blinde as you make them or so vnexpert in the heauenly worke Many of them liued long after they came out of popery They did read the scriptures both for other poynts of doctrine and for the gouernement and all the auncient histories of the Church and in my iudgement might haue bâ—en able in those dayes after twenty years separatioÌ„ froÌ„ popery to see as much as some in these dayes that haue béen but foure or fine yeares from the Bowling Alleyes Agayne I am of this mind that when any error in the Church appeareth it ought if it can bee brought to passe to be reformed And that they doo greeuously sinne which reiect the truth agaynst their knowledge and conscience to the dammage of Gods people but there lieth the matter howe you can proue that our Church is conuinced We must see who they bee that haue layd this patterne which ye speake of before her which was not layd before those blessed martyrs and conuinced here let vs come to the matter In some Ceremonies and in the manner of gouernment our Church doth differ from other Churches Those Churches indéede haue shewed their reasons why they vse not such ceremonies and gouernment but yet they condemne not our Church for not being perswaded by them for they do know that in some matters of controuersie it falleth out often that men may thinke they haue truth and be deceiued also that the truth may be shewed and yet men that erre not conuinced in their conscience vnto whom it is shewed This is your great ignorance Master Barrow which imagine that so soone as a truth is shewed in any matter the partie that erreth is by and by conuinced in his conscience There were thousands in the Church of Ierusalem Act. 21. which erred groslie about the retayning the ceremoniall law and the holy Apostles were driuen to beare with them when they could not perswade them from it and that many yeares And who can conuince errors like the blessed Apostles And you must consider here further that euen those marryrs in our Church whom you so fully cleare had the same paterne layd before them then which our Church hath had layd before her since for they did know that there was another forme of gouernement vsed at Geneua and in some other places and they did not onely reade their writings which shewed the reasons for the same but also some of them as Bishop Hooper and Archdeacon Philpot were trauailers euen to that ende and purpose and liued in some did see if not al yee some number of the reformed Churches beyond the seas Moreouer the rest of the martyrs had here among them out of diuers reformed Churches as Peter Martyr Bucer Fagius Alasco and others Howe ignorantly then and how falsely Master Barrow doo ye affirme that those godly martyrs had neuer liued in seene nor heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church If those martyrs had the very same patterne layd before them which hath béene layd since before our Church and were not conuinced Peradunture you will say it was nothing so fully and so clearely brought and layd it before the martyrs as it hath been layd before our Church Then if I demaund here who they be that haue more fully and more clearely layd this patterne before our Church and thus conuinced her whether your selues alone or partly your selues and partly others I suppose yee will take it but in parte vnto your selues let vs then begin with these other and then come to you The Church of England at the first as you coÌ„fesse set vp the frame as they were perswaded in conscience to be very right and agréeable to Gods word Since that there hath risen controuersie at home about some Ceremonies and obseruations and about the gouernement Reasons and allegations haue beene brought to shew that there be hurtfull things amisse in both and many are perswaded But now the visible Church of England the prince and all those which excercise the chiefe power therein haue stood and doe stand resolute that the ceremonies and obseruations are agreeable to Gods worde or at the least not contrary but tollerable and that gouernement is such as is by Gods word most fit and profitable for our Church They stand vpon their reasons and allegations for this And many thousands in the land both men and women which professe the Gospel and fayth of Christ either know not what the things in controuersie or if they doe knowe them yet are perswaded that our worship and gouernment are right Tell me then M. Barrow seeing ye confesse the martyrs were not conuinced how you know for certainetie that all these are conuinced in their conscience because matters haue béen more fully opened and so continue wilfully obstinate against the knowen truth Hath God giuen
imbrace the Gospell when you giue them the names of those vile beasts and birds and especially when as this your most vile reproach reacheth not alone vnto all the assemblies in England but also vnto all the holy Churches which haue imbraced professe the glorious Gospell For all the Churches haue the Psalmes in meeter which they sing in their publick assemblies and their prescribed leiturgies which ye make so horrible Moreouer yâ— people in other Churches you make to be but prophane multitudes as in the assemblies of England as we shall afterward see where you charge master Caluine at Geneua that with ignorance and rashnes and disorderly procéedings hée at the first â—ash made no scruple to receaue all the whole state euen all the prophane ignorant people into the bosome of the church which you terme a confuse route c. A pernicious example vnto all Europe whome then haue you called Wolues Foxes Dogs Owles c Your tongs are your own who is Lord ouer yee Psalm 12. Your sufferings are for Christ so are theirs which lye bound in bedlem I doo not doubt but that in sundry places the Psalmes in Mâ—tremisse of the strict sence so no doubt do their Psalmes in any Church but yet there is nothing in them vnholy or disagréeing from the truth All the knowledge which you haue is wholly from the writings expositions and translations of those whom you cerine Owles Vultures Dogs Foxes c. For take away the translations of the Bible and what could you hauesâ—n And where had you the direction vnto the sight of those things which you hold in truth but from the writings of others Would you make vs beléeue that you had found them out of your selues In déede your vnsound and crased principles vpon which you ground are your own and nothing else And yet as if you had all knowledge in the fountaines of the holy Scriptures and knew a right sense and scope in them which none besides your selues haue attained vnto you reprehend the Psalmes as well concinnate to the eare but nothing to the sense and also the preachers as not rightly deuâ—â—ing the word If you had shewed some one Psalme for in example first in laying open the natiue sense wherein yet for all your great brags you must trust Tremellius because some one word wrong translated may carry the sense another way and then how the méeter hath wholly swarued from the same it had béen somewhat If you haue any true grammer sense of the Psalmes for that is it which we estéeme as the ground of truth or of the rest of the Scriptures which you haue not from such Owles and Foxes as Master Tremellious Beza and other translators we would be glad to know it But remember what is said of some that they are swelling waues of the sea foming out their owne shame what greater shame and discredit can there be then for men to fall into such insolency and swelling that being grosly ignorant hauing no knowledge but through the helpes ministred by others yet take vpon them as if they weresent from heauen as the onely men that haue séeâ—e the true light This is no excessiue spéech séeing yâ—â—â—â—erâ—â— in many things condemne all Churches and their learnedst reachers â—eâ— the reader considet of the prophanenes and falsehoode of your other spéeches of the preacher going to his géere and not offending any and such like I doo not know Master Barrow what your former conuersation hath béeâ— but by your spéeches â— man would iudge that you had spent your time rather in the societies of â—arding and dicing then in the â—câ—â—â—lâ— of Christ here therefore I conclude that with ignorance falsehood and prophane impiety ye accuse our worship to be blasphemous and Idolatrous Thus much for the first transgression now to the second The second is that the prophane vngodly multitudes without exception of any one person are with vs receiued into and retained in the bosome and bodie of our Church In your preamble Master Barrow you doo but babble and that vpon your owne surmises contrarie to my plaine words and whether against your conscience looke you for I doo not allow euill ministers nor their admitting of open notorious sinners vnto the table of the Lord. And when I said the Church of Englang dooth not allow the same I speake of the established publick order by the consent of the whole land which is both for the godlines of the ministers repelling the notorious offendors from the Sacrament Moreouer we doo not at any hand allow your arguments which are drawne from the principles of Donatisine as namely that wée must separate our selues where wée sée any swarue from their duety and offend The reason which you brought to prooue this second transgression as you sayd at once I reduced into forme of Sylogisme thus where all are receiued in by baptisme and no power to cast forth any by excommunication there all the prophane multitudes are without exception of any one person receiued into retayned in the bosome and bodie of the Church But in the Church of England all are receiued in by Baptisme and no power to cast forth any by excommunication Therefore in the Church of England all the prophane multitudes without the exception of any one person are receiued into and retained in the bosome and bodie of the Church Here you complayne and that grieuonsly that I did frame this argument after mine owne conceipt as I might best deale withall and then did proceede to confute you The falsification which you charge me so sore withall is that I haue put in a newe minor proposition as namely the whole bodie of the Church of England for the particular asseblies It is a straÌ„ge case to see the witte of some man what great 〈…〉 â—hee can contriue if men will giue credit He that is 〈◊〉 whether it be bysome one assemblie which 〈◊〉 â—ower or by the whole bodie of a Church in a kingdom is â—â—e not cast forth Did not Esra with the Princes and Elders of Israel publish a Proclamation that hee that should not come vp to Ierusalem within three dayes should bee separated from the congregation of the multitude that came out of captiuitie Esra 10. ver 8. this was excommunication Moreouer where you sayd that the Parson and his parish hath not the power to cast forth any by excommunication I did not let this passe but tolde you that it is not meete that the Parson and his parish should haue this power to excommunicate vnlesse it be such a parish as hath the consistory of Pastors and Elders I gaue you the example of the Church of Geneua where euery seuerall flock hath a Pastor but yet these Pastors and their flocks haue not the power to excommunicate Why doo not you then if you will answere prooue by the worde of God that euery particular flock in a kingdome or region is of necessitie for the being of a Church to
the Lord called the Children which were borne vnto them his sonnes Ezech. 16. which nothing at all perteined vnto him but by a speciall blessing So when he hath left his couenant in France Italie Germany Spayne England since these Prouinces haue beene oppressed with the tyrannie of Antichrist yet that his Couenant might remaine inuiolable he first there preserued Baptisme the testimony of his couenant which being consecrate with his owne mouth retaineth her owne force notwithstanding the vngodlines of man then furthermore he hath by his prouidence brought to passe that there should other remnants also remaine least the Church should vtterly perish And as oftentimes buildings are so pulled downe that the foundations and ruines remaine so hee hath not suffered his Church to be subuerted by Antichrist euen from the foundation or to be laide euen with the ground howsoeuer to punish mens ingratitude which had despised his word he hath suffered horrible shaking and dissipation to chance but euen after the laying wast hee would haue the building remaine halfe pulled downe Whereas therefore wee will not simplie graunt to the Papists the title of the Church we doo not therefore deny that there bee Churches among them but onely wee contend about the true and lawful ordering of the Church which is required both in the Communion of the holy things which are the signes of the profession also of doctrine most chiefelie Daniel and Paule foretold that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God among vs wee account the Bishop of Rome the Captaine and standerd bearer of that wicked and abominable Kingdome That his seate is placed in the Temple of God thereby is meant that his Kingdome shall be such as may abolish neither the name of Christ nor of the Church Hereby therefore it is manifest that we denie not but that there remaine Churches also vnder his tyrannie but yet such as hee hath prophaned with sacrilegious impietie such as hee hath afflicted with outragious dominion such as he hath corrupted and almost killed with euill and deadly doctrines as it were with poysoned drinkes in which Christ lieth halfe buried the Gospel ouerwhelmed godlines expelled the worship of God almost abolished furthermore in which all things are so confused and out of order that there appeareth the face of Babylon rather then of the holy citie of God Briefelie I say they be Churches in as much as the Lord dooth there merueilouslie preserue the remnants of his people howsoeuer miserably dispersed and scatred and in as much as there remaine some badges or seales of the Church and these especially whose efficacy neither the craft of the diuell nor the wickednes of men can destroy but on the other side because those notes or markes are blotted out which wee ought chiefely to respect in this controuersie I say that euerie one of their assemblies and the whole bodie wanteth the lawfull forme of a Church Thus farre be Master Caluines words tell me now Master Barrow is Master Caluine to be accounted among the learned Diuines Dooth he say the Church is in the papacy that is no more but that the Elect are among them as in other places of the World Looke also what I haue said touching this whole matter which he dooth not here say yea euen from that which is in Ezechiel 16. Where you aske who but this peruerse fellow speaking of me could thus stumble and cauill at those words my sonnes and my daughters c But if it bee not plaine enough which Master Caluine saith in this which I haue recited to proue that you would beare the simple in hand that the learned Diuines are of another minde and yet vnderstand not their minde I will adde a little more out of the same Author In his Epistle 404. thus hee writeth Quòd ecclesiae reliquias manere in papatu dico nō restringo ad electos qui illic dispersi sunt sed ruinas dissipatae ecclesiae illic extare intelligo Ac ne mihilongis rationibus disputandum sit nos pauli autoritate contentos esse decet qui Antichristum in temple deisessurum pronuntiat quamquam hoc rationibus satis validis me probasse puto ecelesiam licet semiruptam imo silubet diruptam ac deformem aliquam tamen manere in papatu In that I say the remnants of the Church remaine in the papacy I doo not restraine it to the Elect which are dispersed there but I meane that the ruines of a dispersed Church are extant among them And that I may not dispute the matter with reasons at large it becommeth vs to be content and satisfied with the authority of Paule which pronounceth that Antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God Albeit I suppose I haue proued this with reasons strong enough that there remaineth neuerthelesse some Church in the papacy although halfe broken downe or if you will broken downe and deformed Also Master Beza Epistle 81. page 356. For the remnants of the Church in the papacy is of the same minde affirming that there remaine not onely Gods Elect but also the Sacrament of Baptisme and sundry poynts of sound doctrine Now let vs see what horrible blasphemies you say will followe of this that I say Antichrist should sit in the Church and yet the same remayne still the visible Church so farre foorth as Master Caluines words and Master Bezaes doo import For when you will needes haue it that God hath giuen me vp into a reprobate sense the matter toucheth not me so much as Master Caluine and Beza and many other most worthie men which so expound it Nay if God open your eyes you shall see whether you doo not like Rabsaka reproach the Lord God who hath vttered it by his Apostle The first is this If Antichrist may be sayd to sit raigne and remayne in the Church of God then Christ is not made heire and Lord of all and set as King vpon Mount Sion A worthie collection is it not because God in righteous iudgement for the punishment of those that receiued not the loue of the trueth giueth power vnto Satan and Antichrist to seduce the multitude in the visible Church Christ is not heire of all things nor raigneth as K. vpon Mount Sion Wil you say if the diuell haue a kingdome in the world Christ is not Lord of the whole world Mount Sion may be vsed for the visible Church but most properly for the inuisible which is the Communion of Saints of which are none but the elect Satan and Antichrist are not able to pluck one of these out of his hand he raigneth ouer them and in them Moreouer he raigneth ouer the whole visible Church and ouer the whole world for hee is ascended and filleth all things so that Satan Antichrist and all Tyrants can proceed no further then his will The next is If Antichrist sit in the Church then Christ is either cast out of his house made subiect vnto Antichrist or els deuideth with him Christ
gouernement by Bishops not such as you set it forth well let vs procéede Here now we must lay open what power the Pope dooth exercise and what power the Bishops in our Church doo exercise to sée if it be the same or the like Also whether the Bishops doo exercise any power but that which Christ hath giuen to his Church to be exercised by men that is either by Bishops or Presbyteries Touching the Pope he hath vsurped power ouer the whole word of God affirming that the holy scriptures haue no authority as they say vnto vs no certainty for the sense no life but as hee doth giue vnto them And for this cause hee doth take vpon him to expound them as he will contrary to the grammer sense Hee doth take vpon him to dispense with all and to abrogate expresse lawes of God And further he taketh vpon him to make lawes of his owne to bind the fayth and conscience of all men euen as the articles of our fayth doo bind or the expresse doctrine of the sacred Scriptures Hee doth vsurp in sundry things of so high nature apperteming peculiarly to God as that he sheweth himselfe as God The power which the Byshops of our Church do exercise is first in examining approâ—uing and ordaining ministers and authorising them to preach the Gospell Secondly it is in this that they are to sée the orders of the Church for the publick administration duly obserued and so they haue power to excommunicate suspend and depriue c. such as shall transgresse either against doctrine order or in manners Touching lawes they haue not power to make any one not euen in things méete indiff rent neither haue they power to abrogate or to take away any one that is made and by the publick authority of our Church established they can giue no commaundements of their owne That Christ hath giuen power to ordaine ministers and to execute the censures Ecclesiasticall you doo not call into question the controuersie is but by whome this power should bee executed whether by Bishops or by Presbyters If there be an error in the execution of it by Bishops or if there be a fault in the execution by Elders this fault or error dooth not destroy the power it selfe nor yet maketh it Antichristian as ruling ouer the faith and conscience I knowe Master Barrow that ye will here take great exception and say that the chiefe thing is yet behind For as ye charge the presbyteries most heynously in that they take vpon them to decree and ordayne Canons and constitutions vnto which they inioyne obedience in the people so the Bishops execute the lawes and Canons which haue been ordeyned by men though not by themselues the matter is all one Is not this to exercise Lordship and dominion ouer mens faith and conscience About this then must be our speciall question whether Christ hath giuen such a power vnto the Church as to make lawes or Cannons in externall matters which wee call things indifferent And whether the vrging men to kéepe them be not to take away Christian libertie and so to rule ouer the faith and conscience I knowe this question is hard to bee discussed to make euery simple man vnderstand the matter You Master Barrow and Master Greenwood are most blind in it I wish the reader to obserue because it is one maine rocke vpon which ye are runne And crye out what ye can that I like a marked seruant of Antichrist like a graceles man that hath his conscience seared with a hot Iron doo change yee wrongfully yet it shall bee euident that by seeking an Annabaptisticall freedome ye do abridge the power of the Christian Magistrate and of the Church To come therefore vnto the matter that which S. Iames sayth must first stand sure namely That there is one lawgiuer which is able to saue and to destroy Iam. 4. vers 12. Hereupon it is most sure that God alone hath Lordship ouer the conscience of man to binde the faith and conscience For looke what God hath by his lawe commaunded to bee done it is good it is holie no King nor the whole Church can make any part of it euill or commaund it not to be done Looke what God hath forbidden to be done that same is euill and vnholy no King nor yet the whole Church can make it good and holy or command it to bee done I say further that the law of God is so absolutely perfect that there is no righteousnes for men but it is therein conteyned neyther is there any vnrighteousnes but it is therein forbidden Wherefore they which take vpon them to make lawes to binde the conscience eyther by abrogating or by adding commit most high and blasphemous sacriledge of which the whole poperie is to be condemued But now there are certayne middle actions and things which we call indifferent because if we simply respect them in themselues or in their owne nature they bee neither good nor euill In these consisteth one part of Christian libertie to vse or not to vse with knowledge and discretion Now if we respect the very nature of these things no Prince or church can change it as to make them to become necessarily good or necessarily euill in themselues to the conscience And therefore touch not tast not handle not Coloss 2. vers 21. making the outward indifferent things vncleane to the conscience is to vsurpe an Antichristian power ouer the conscience euen agaynst God Also to make those externall things to be of necessitie to the conscience is to lay a yoake of bondage and agaynst this wee are willed to stand fast in the freedome wherewith Christ hath made vs free Gal 5. vers 1. Hetherto Master Barrow I thinke yée will agree with me But now touching the externall vse of these things either for Princes to make politick lawes to commaund the vse or to restraine the vse of them or for the Church to make Cannons and constitutions to commaund or restrayne the vse as shall serue for order and comelines therein lieth our disagreement and therein ye pleade for your Annabaptisticall freedome and confusion I meane that ataxia or ouerthrowe of all order First ye call it a subtill distinction which Master Caluine vseth of the externall or ciuill Court and the Court of conscience in your discouerie pag. 88. And you say Master Caluine hauing very truely set downe that it is heinous presumption in any mortall man to restrayne or make lawes of such things as the Lord hath left in libertie hee straight way least he should keepe backe ciuill Magistrates from receiuing the Gospell inuenteth a politick distinction betwixt the ciuill court and the court of conscience saying that this outward court respecteth men onely and bindeth not the conscience of the doer the other concerneth matters belonging vnto God and therefore bindeth the conscience Thus hath he both lost and entangled himselfe and vtterly ouerthrowne all his former doctrine pag. 93. In pag. 247. of
is that princes lawes are to be obeyed for conscience out of which a man may reason thus seeing none can make lawes to binde the conscience but God and no lawe but in things good or euill can binde the conscience and not in things indifferent for that were to binde where God hath left free therefore Princes haue no power to make lawes in things indifferent To answer this in such sort as a simple man may see the falsehood of it is somewhat hard but I will doo the best I can I say therefore I am bound for conscience to obey the Princes lawes and yet the Princes lawes of themselues doo not binde my conscience It is an honest a good and profitable thing when the Prince maketh a lawe and restrayneth the vse of some things outwardly which the conscience hath freedome in inwardly before God when it is for a publike good Now I am bound to further a publike good it is a great sinne to shewe contempt agaynst the Prince whom God commandeth me to obey in these respects then I am boūd euen for couscience to keep the lawes The nature of the things indifferent is not altered before God vnto my conscience by that restraint of lawe neither yet the vse is taken from me when and where it may bee without contempt of my Prince without offence to men and without hindring a publike good or commoditie They that speake in words of Arte doo say that Princes lawes doo not binde the conscience haplôs but cata ti not simply by themselues but for some respect or by somewhat which commeth as a medium which is as I haue before shewed Take an example put case some dying of clothes should be harmefull to the Common wealth as to dye in blewe I am a Dyer this restraynt doth not make the very dying in blew it selfe vncleane to my conscience before God and so binde my conscience but if I dye in blew contemning the power so giue a publike offence and hinder a common profite I doo sinne God doth forbid these things and they doo binde the conscience Now to come to the lawes Ecclesiasticall which M. Greenwood sayth is to goe a note further The Church as in our Countrey the Prince the Nobilitie and Commons assembled in Parliament doo agree vpon some lawes in things indifferent for comelines and order and edification in Gods worship as in some other places the Presbyteries with the consent of the christian Magistrates This say you is to binde the conscience Well let vs see your reasons If say you they binde not the conscience why should men be excommunicate and deliuered vp to Satan for violating such ceremonies and orders as bind not the conscience This seemeth vnto you a thing most absurd but marke a little The Princes lawes as I haue shewed doo not bind the conscience but yet he that with contempt of the Prince to a publike euill example and harme of the Common wealth doth breake the lawes is guiltie of great sinne and if he stand in it worthie to be excommunicate Euen so hee that violateth a lawfull rule or ceremonie of the Church in matters indifferent which are not layd vpon him to bind his conscience before God but for order and comelines before men though his conscience touching the things themselues is not bound before God yet in shewing any contempt agaynst the publike authoritie of the church in giuing an offence by bringing in vncomelines or disorder he sinneth if he persist obstinatly is to be excommunicate Tel me M. Greenwood is it not a thing betweene God and a mans conscience free to weare a gowne of greene cloath were it not in regard of comelines among men The Church then taketh order that no Minister shall come into the publike assemblie to preach in a green gown he doth it is he not to be reproued as for a great sinne if he stand obstinatly in it to be cast forth But you say all these things must be left to the discretion of the Minister So ye may also take away the power of making lawes in matters simply euil for euery man hath not loue or care And now whereas I haue shewed by y◠example of the holy Apostles Act. 15. who decreed that the Gentiles should abstaine from bloud and from strangled that the Church hath power to decrée in things indifferent orders for edification let vs see what a learned answer you M. Greenwood haue found out First you say I haue ouerthrowne my selfe by setting downe that the holy Ghost and the Apostles did this because these were the master builders and were to make lawes c. Alas poore man doth the holy Ghost euer make law or the Apostles in things indifferent as eating blood or strangled to change the nature of the things or to binde a mans conscience before God so that he might not secretly where it might neuer be knowne to the weake Iewes Then ye see there may bee lawes made the holy Ghost by the rules of the Scriptures guiding the Pastors in things indifferent which binde not the conscience But say you they doo not inioyne it as a lawe but tell them they shall do well if they obserue these things by no necessitie inforced pag. 251. Then it seemeth they might haue eate bloud and strangled and giuen offence to the weake Iewes and not haue done euill That which seemeth good to the holy Ghost for them to obserue they may if it seeme not good to them not obserue How absurd is this And if ye mark well what S. Iames sayth Act. 21. vers 25. you shall see it was not left arbytrarie so long as there might offence growe thereby Well if the Church then haue power to make such decrees to auoyd publike offence and disorder what if the Church erre and appoynt some orders and Ceremonies which are hurtfull This error and fault of the Church is not in that high offence of binding the conscience which indeede is Antichristian but in missing what is most comely most without offence and fittest for edification The Church of Christ is so precious a thing and the soules of men to bee regarded with such sender compassion that all Christian gouernours and guides ought to be carefull not onely not to lay any yoke vppon the conscience but euen to redresse the least error that may breede or worke any harme touching comelines and order To ende this poynt Master Barrow vntill you can shewe wherein any power is vsurped and exercised ouer the faith and conscience wee must needes take all that ye haue here set downe to be but your lauish speech Now touching those reasons which I brought to proue the ministry of our Churches to be the ministry of Christ The first is this they haue the calling of the Church What sound stuffe ye haue brought to warrant your most vngodly presumption in condemning the Church of England as also al Churches in Europe let the reader iudge Also that