they shall proue that there are more wise men than fooles Now then I thinke it doth sufficiently appeare that by this bare successiō which they brag of that true catholike church wherein we must abyde cannot be discerned from the false Churche from which we ought of necessitie to depart But yet before that we conclude this place we muste refell an argument which these Sophisters would haue to be deemed such a one as cannot be ouercome For say they Hovv the fathers vsed the argumēt of personall succession the fathers so dispute from the succession of bishoppes against auncient heretiques But againe what can be more corrupt than this subtle kind of reasoning for this is that which is well knowne euen to children which they are wount to call an elench [a] The fallacie of composition or diuision is a false conclusion made by a wrong application of wordes alleadged or spoken referring that to one which is alleadged or spoken to an other or a fallacy of composition and diuysion First therfore I deny that any of the auncient fathers were mynded to vse the recitall of Bishops but to haue recourse rather euen to the Apostles And why so that the authoritie of doctrine rather than of persons shoulde be mainteined But these men obiect vnto vs the succession of their bishops not in déede bishops so far letting passe the mention of that Apostolicall doctrine that they woulde haue it accounted a wicked thing to demaund it at his handes that woulde proue him selfe to succeed the auncient byshoppes Now I pray you howe many authors of blasphemies haue sit in those chiefe seates of Alexandria Antioche Constantinople yea what seat will these men shew me somewhat more famous where some hereticall bishops haue not helde their seate And as touching the Romish chayre from which these men by a rottē coard hang the catholique church Honorius the [a] Monothelites were certain heretiks about the yeare 565 who affirmed that there vvas but one will and one action in Christ denying that ther was in him two naturall willes and actions which might aunsvvere to his two natures Monothelite openly condemned of the sixt general councell and priuately of Agatho another Roman Bishoppe And Iohn the 22. thinking euill touching the soule of man in like manner condemned of the colledge of Sorbon in Paris were sounde to haue sit in that seate To let passe [a] Liberius for ambitions sake fell into the Arrian heresie Liberius [b] He while Siluerius the Pope liued by the ayde of Belisarius the captaine of the Emperors armie obteined the popedome Vigilius and [c] He meaneth of Anastasius the 2. who fell into the heresie of Arrius and Eutiches which heresies Acatius also him selfe did propound about the yeere 484. Anastasius whom I see of some to be excused although Gratian. 2. Disti 19. reckeneth this last also as an Acatian heretique amongst the condemned Popes But if any man would obiect that these are blotted out of the number of Byshops and therfore are not comprehended in that title or role of succession yet this he shal be inforced to graunt vs to wit that the succession of the seat of Rome was then at the least broken of when these were therefore blotted out which persons notwithstanding they themselues as yet number in their Catologue because they had declined from the Apostolicall doctrine Whervpon followeth that which Tertulian rightly affirmeth that religion ought to be proued or tried not by the persons Tertulian but the persons by religion But here truly I confesse that I do somwhat ouershoot my self for seeing the question is of doctrine what doth this appertaine to the Byshops of the Churche of Rome whome all Christendome knoweth nowe so manye yeeres to haue beene for nothing lesse carefull then for anye doctrine eyther true or false but onely for to establishe and enlarge theire owne tyrannie But they will say no man hath condēned these Popes I confes it For who would haue taken to himself this lawful authority against their tiranny who had perswaded all men that they ought to be iudged of none Therefore there hath bene not of late onely but many ages together not an interruption but a full abruption or renting of the succession of Rome from the body of the catholique true church except peraduenture these men iudge that it is something lesse eyther to belleeue nothing or to teache nothing than to be an Heretique And I beséeche you what impudencie is this True doctrine ought to go before true succession to haue the knowledge of trueth to hang vpon succession wheras on the contrary these men themselues can not deny but that the trueth ought necessarily to go before succession And these Sophisters The Christian church in the time of Christe coulde not be knovvne by the succession of Persons if they had bene in the times of Christ by what Bishoply succession would they haue acknowledged the true church surely not by the title or name of the Leuiticall high priests because that priesthood was then at an end and Christ cannot be called the successour of Aaron vnlesse Iudaisme be agayne established wherefore also he is sayd to be made a high priest Heb. 7.16.17 not according to the order of Leui but according to the order of Melchisedec Therefore the holy men at that time acknowledged the Catholique church without the marke of personall succession to wit by the comparison of the doctrine of the Prophetes with the doctrine of Christe him selfe and the Apostles Which is so farre true that on the contrarye none haue lesse acknowledged Christe than they that haue cleaued to a Byshoply succession Therefore that personall succession is no true and perpetuall marke of the Catholique Church These men happely beeing driuen from the Leuiticall succession will againe obiect another succession from the Prophetes But neyther so shall they speake the truth if they sticke in the persons them selues for the succession of Prophetes was not perpetuall no more than the succession of Priests yea rather it was broken of a long time especially after Malachie They wil also obiect vnto vs that saying Mat. 23.2 The Scribes Pharises sit in Moses chaire But agayne they shold remember the same Christ to haue said Take heed of the leauen of the Pharisees Mat. 16.6 And therefore by that saying of Christ we are not called backe to a succession of persons but to a succession of doctrine But I haue besides an other thing more peremptorye as they them selues speake to aunswere againste that in which these men falsly boast themselues to followe the authoritie of the Fathers in discrying the church by which thing also their wilines may more and more be made manifest I denie therefore The auncient fathers vsed not the argument of personall succession against all heretiques that any of the auncient fathers haue at any time made mention of this succession but either against Schismatiques whilest
none that so interpreted the primacies and glorious titles which are attributed to the bishop of Rome although in deed the bishops of Rome ambitiouslie sought nothing more and there wanted not some who most shamlesly euen then flattered thē as that they did for all that gyue this degree of vniuersall head vnto him Therfore they haue not Christ nor Peter but that most vile man of al Phocas I say the emperor for the author of this vniuersallitie and they haue Boniface the thirde the head or beginner of this tyrannie or that I may vse the words of Gregorie the great himselfe the chiefe or head of Antichristianisme in so much that the Romishe popedome doth but onely sixtene yeares at the most goe before Mahumetisme or the turkishe religion But by what sleightes that monster hath vsurped and attayned this tyrannie who I praie you at this day can be ignorant vnlesse he be ignorant of histories or whose eyes Satan hath blinded yea seeing that this most holy father doth boast him selfe to be not the successor of Peter alone but of Paul also whose heads being cut off not so much by newes hang men as by the Pope himselfe he ingraueth in these his leaden seales it must needs be either that afterward two heads were growen into one whose authoritie afterward passed for sooth to this successor of them both or els that neither Peter nor Paule were this onely vniuersal ministeriall head except he woulde rather acknowledge that the catholique churche hath had at the beginning two heades vppon the earth But what say I that I may speake nothing here of so many Antipopes or Popes one against an other when as Liberius and Damasus at one and the same time as all men affirme obtayned that seate of Rome where was then that one vniuersall head And let these thinges be sufficiently spoken touching the deliuerie of that spirituall sworde from hand to hand And as concerning that other sworde which they call secular or politique wherewith they haue ouerthrowen all magistracie From whence I pray you do they take the beginning of this iurisdiction for though we shoulde beleeue that fable of the donation or gyfte of Constantine to be as true as it was shamelesly fayned yet truely it shal not be set from the apostles but frō the emperor neither yet graunted by Christ or by Peter but by men Which thing notwithstanding was neyther lawfull for Constantine to do nor for the Bishoppe of Rome to receaue although it had beene willingly offered him Wherefore if they shall of their owne authoritie requyre agayne these two feathers the churche those former to wit the ecclesiasticall gouernement and Kinges and Princes these latter to wit ciuill iurisdiction and authoritie both which in their time shall come to passe this fellow will then appeare not the head of the church but an vnfeathered cuckow And these things concerning this head haue I put down in few words because they haue of late by them of our side verie plentifully both out of the worde of God out of the truest histories of former times to be short out of the testimonies of the Popes thēselues ben manifestly declared and plentifully proued Now the head of this succession being cut off That there can be noe Apostolicall succession in the Cardinalles Metrapolitanes Primates or Archbishops what shall the rest of the body be but a roteen and stinking carkas Truely them selues are compelled to confesse that the next degree vnto this head to wit the order of cardinalles as it is nowe cannot be set from the more auncient time There follow primates and Archbishoppes for scarce the verie name of Patriarkshippe is yet remayning and Mahomet at the length hath ended the matter incontrouersie which firste arose betweene the [a] That is those foure men that tooke vppon them the gouernment of the vvhol world he meaneth the foure Patriarches to wit Hierusalem Alexandria Constātinople Rome Quartumvi i and afterwards betweene the [a] That is the fiue mē that toke vppon them the gouernement of the world Quintumuiri Therefore the Nicene councell it selfe doth not refer the beginning of these offices to the word of God or Apostolicall institution eyther written or not written but to ancient custome So that neither can this succession be thought to be Apostolicall The degree of Bishopps wherin they are exalted aboue the rest of the Ministers or Pastors was vnknowen to the Apostles and therfore that there is no Apostolicall succession therof There rest yet Bishoppes so called of them to wit which are set in euerie diocesse aboue ministers for the other inferiour orders these pleaders of succession nothing esteeme whose onely succession neuerthelesse hath some shew of Apostolicall succession But it maye plainely apeare out of the firste Epistle to the Corinth not onely that there was no suche degree of Bishops ordeyned by the Apostles as immediatly afterward was brought into the Church after the times of the apostles neither that ther was any such allowed of the Apostle to wit that ther should be one degree of a bishop and an other of a minister or that some man should be called a Bishoppe not in respect of a flock but in respect of his fellow elders For who doubteth but that the Apostle woulde haue gyuen this counsel vnto the Corinthians or himselfe woulde haue perfourmed it or haue attributed it to Caephas or Apollo if which thing Hierome hath written to Euagrius and in his commentaries vpon the first Epistle to Titus he had iudged this remedie profitable much more necessarie for the brydling of Schismes But whether it were lawfull to ordayne this degree in the Church or not for of this I like not nowe to dispute that thing is not only apparant out of Hierom vpon the epistle to Titus the Bishops are greater than ministers rather by custome than by the truth of the Lords appoyntment But also by witnesses which these men as greater than all exception are accustomed to alleadge as Lucius the Pope Clement the second Anacletus vnlesse their Epistles be rather counterfaite which yet these men cite for authenticall Lombard in his fourth booke of sentences the 24. distinct Gratian and to be short Cardinall Cusan in his booke of the vniuersall vnitie Platina in the life of Pope Bonifacius the third al which plainly witnesse that all this Hierarchicall or priestlike gouernment aboue ministers was deuised by men after the example of the Roman empyre that is to say that it is the true Imag◠of the beast described in the reuelalion of Iohn Reuel 13.1 Reuel 14.9 For whose cause some in the beginning also did trauaile which ment not to performe that which afterward insued The thing it selfe in fine taught vs that it was a matter of great importance to decline euen but a nailes bredth from the word of God The conclusion of the disputation touching the succession of persons sundred from the succession of
ordination should be iudged of no force who hath not bene lawfully examined and chosen That no Pastors are ordeyned by the laying on of handes but being alredy ordeined are put into the possession of their office and commended vnto God and they that ordeyne suche to be subiect also to very gréeuous punishment And therefore they doe vainely challenge vnto them selues that which is no where found amongst them Moreouer this also they should know that Pastours are not made by the laying on of hands but being ordeined by a lawfull calling which is the voyce of God are so commended and put into the possession of the ministery For wheras they recken this ceremony of laying on of handes amongst sacramentes by the same reason that they recken baptisme and the supper of the Lord we say that it is altogether a vaine dotage seeing there is no expresse commaundement of that ceremonie extant neither is there ioyned vnto it any sacramentall promise neyther doe we reiect eyther this ceremony or iudge to bee vnprofitable the prayers of the church commending and as it were offering vnto God the Pastor that hee hath sent them for the sending of God is a lawful calling But here surely it falleth out with these hypocrites as it hath in other things also to wit that those things being omitted in which a true calling consisteth that is to say the trial of doctrine and of life and a lawfull election of the whole Church they sticke in the outward ceremonie whiche ceremonie also they haue defiled with infinit vicelike rites that I may let passe that horrible sale of benefices and treading vnderfoote of the old cannons made touching the multiplication of benefices as they call them and touching ordination by ouer leaping as they speake of inferior orders And yet notwithstanding they themselues are not ignorant that by the ful consent of the ancient Synodes not onely ordination but also other better parts of a calling are by the meanes iudged of no force That euen a lawfull ordination is not a perpetuall and altogether a necessarye marke of the true church eyther Catholique or particular But goe too let vs put the cafe also that all these men were both lawfullye chosen and ordeined Shal therfore their congregation be the catholique church or not rather a denne of théeues if in abusing their calling they turne lighte into darkenesse and perfourme this one thing alone to make slaues to Sathan the sheepe that shoulde bee brought to Christe And yet if forsooth the head of his false Church doe this as what els I pray you doth he he will not endure this that he may be iudged of any mortall man For so these men haue beene bolde nowe a long time not onely to speake but also to write And if this bee playnely to play the Antichrist what is this Catholique Church I beseech you of which Antichrist is the head Wherefore The conclusion of the whole former disputation of the personal succession ordination that I may at the length conclude this place I suppose that these two thinges doe nowe sufficiently appeare that neither a base succession of persons nor the obseruation of an outwarde vocation is that necessarye and perpetuall marke of the true Churche which the Logitians call proper after the [a] That is whiche agreeth to euery one of the kind onely to the kind and always to the kinde as to be apt to laugh agreeth to all men to men only and alwaies to them and to euerye particuler of that kinde fourth sort Neither although it shoulde be so doe these things at any thing at al belong to the Church of Rome such as now it is that is vnto the Popedome but rather what argumēts soeuer conuince the Churche of Antichrist the same doe so euidently appeare in this Harlot that he that would not acknowledge flye from and detest her as an adultresse forsaken of her husbande truelye A true definition of the true church and a proper necessary and perpetuall marke of the same must either nothing regarde these things or else be without all vnderstanding Nowe because we haue determined not onely to set out the false markes which thinges wee suppose wee haue done but also to poynte out as it were with the finger the true and proper markes of the Church Go to let vs attempt this latter point We say therefore that a true definition of a true Church eyther particularly or vniuersally considered is that by which it is said to be a congregation that confesseth the true Iesus Christe their onely sauiour For we say that Iesus Christe is that onely foundation of that true spirituall house of God Iesus Christ onely is the soule of that misticall bodie Iesus Christe onely is the square of that building The true Christe must be discerned from the false by the onely writinges of the Prophets Apostles The aduersaries will aunswere that they also acknowledge and preache the same thing Therefore we do adde seeing there be many false Christes that we dispute of the true Christe These men also will replie that they haue done and do the same In the third place therefore we adde that he is in deed the true Christ that hath most fully reuealed him selfe by the mouth of his Prophets and Apostles And the mouth of the Prophetes and Apostles we interpret to be their authenticall writings wherin we affirme are most fully and moste perfectly comprehended all the pointes of the Christian faith partly plainely and partly by necessary consequences to be gathered thereof For we beléeue it to be as absurd that the true Christ must therefore be perfectly knowne by the writings of the Apostles prophets because they did fully and plainly both knovv and teach the whole Christian religion and the same Prophetes and Apostles do yet in their writinges teach it vnto vs. to thinke that the Apostles were ignorant of some thing of the misteries of christianitie or not to haue reuealed all thinges vnto the worlde both which Tertulian hath iustly accounted verie greate pointes of madnesse as not to haue put in writing all things necessarie to saluation or to be short not so to haue put them downe that either they should not be plaine inough of them selues or if any thing be written somewhat more obscure their true interpretation shoulde be els where sought than out of their very writings But here we haue the aduersaries manifestly disagreeing from vs yet not al neither those which like shamelesnesse For there be that graunt both these thinges that is to say that the Apostles knew perfectly all the doctrine of saluation and taught all the same most faithfully vnto the Church which thing in deed they iustly graunt for as much as Christ him selfe in the 15. of Iohn and the 16.13 witnesseth this in most plaine wordes And Paule in the 21.27 of the Actes Galathians 1.8 Hehrews 1.1 otherwise it shold be false at least in some
part which the same Apostle speaketh to wit That the Church is builded vppon the foundation of the Prophetes and Apostles And that which he witnesseth of the holy scriptures 2. Timot. 3.16.17 Moreouer that shall be false to which the same Apostle saith That the Churche is the piller of truth 1. Tim. 3.15 Vnlesse all truth beeing ingrauen in that piller should be manifest Other some more shamelesse suppose there is left vnto these men whom they call the successours of the Apostles I know not what excellent thing and that they doe affirme so assuredly that they hold they can not be deceiued in that matter whose opinion I suppose néedeth not at this time amongst men of sound iudgement any confutation But in the ouerthrow of these two latter and especially of the last point I perceiue that all these men VVhat we ought to think of the vnwritten word are altogether of one opinion against vs. For they vrge I knowe not what vnwritten worde which they call Apostolicall traditions And verely I do not vnwillinglie graunt vnto them that all thinges were not seuerally put downe in wryting according to the circumstances of times place and persons which were obserued either by the Apostles or by their consent in the very forme and order of the seruice of God But who wil graunt that we must thinke the same of the decrees of the verie doctrine it selfe Finally when the aduersaries are bidden to bring forth what these pointes be then that lying spirit bewraieth himselfe because those thinges which they will haue deliuered from hand to hand could neither by word nor writinges haue bene deliuered by the Apostles but they should dissent from themselues But euen al the fathers of sound iudgement haue iudged farre other wise of the most excellent and moste sound perfection of the holy scriptures with whose testimonies being a thousand times alleadged I thought it not good now to fill these leaues There remayneth the question to be handled The interpretation of the vvritten vvord is not else vvhere to be fet then from the vvorde it selfe to wit by comparing of the places one vvith another and out of the analogie or proportion of the articles of our fayth touching the interpretation of the scripture Which truely is so tossed to and fro by these men that they cannot eschew the sinne of blasphemie There be I confesse some places of the scripture partly through the ignorance of tongs partly also throgh other faults of our owne so dark vnto vs euen vntil this day that as yet euen the most learned interpreters and such as be of best cōscience cannot thoroughly agrée what should be the proper natural meaning thereof There be some thinges also in the holy scriptures so profoundly spoken that euery one maye not lawfullye procéede so farre To be short there be some things also written in such terms that as Augustin saith it shold appeare the holy ghost would whet our diligence in the serching and meditating of them And vnlesse the necessarie points of doctrine and Christian religion were so playnely and clearly to be short so familiarly declared in the writings of the Prophetes and Apostles that they may be the holy ghost being presēt amongst them whereby God lightneth all his sayntes manifestly vnderstoode in the Church to what end shoulde the Lorde haue sent his hearers to the scriptures Yea that more is to what ende haue both the Prophets and Christe himselfe also and the Apostles spoken if they would not haue these thinges to be vnderstood which all ought to know I will speake something more boldly which yet I hope I can proue VVe cannot by naturall vnderstanding knovv vvhat the pointes of Christian religion are but by the writinges of the Prophets and Apostles That we may consent vnto the points of Christian religion as vnto true groundes and muche more that wee may applye them vnto our selues it behooueth surely that wee shoulde haue our eares elsewhere opened a fleshly bea rt giuen vs to be short that we should elsewhere be taught tban of flesh and blood because the church is the congregation of them that must be taught of God to whome the arme of the Lord is reuealed Esai 53.1 and that men may vnderstand what the Prophetes and Apostles haue briefly thought and taught concerning euery article of our religion they haue neede not onely of a wit in some measure sharpened but also of the knowledge of tongues and of careful and diligent reading For it is one manner of thing to vnderstande what this or that man sayth then so to vnderstand the things which thou doest perceiue that thou also approue of them Comprehension knowledge and full perswasiō must be distinguished in the holy scriptures of which that to wit comprehension is naturall the other is in deede spiritual but also commō to many reprobates The third is proper to the children of God and not onely that thou vnderstand what the thing is but also wherefore it is and comprehension is another thing than knowledge euen in prophane matters and agayne in matter of diuinity this knowledge is another thing than full perswasion therefore comprehension belongeth vnto all men that are endued with some iudgement and vnto knowledge there is required also an outwarde lightning of Gods spirite by reason of the blindenes of mans iudgment which gift notwithstanding is common as well to many euil as to many good men But ful perswasion doth seperate the chosen children of God from the castawayes and is the proper riches of the Saintes Therefore we require In what points we doe at this day dissent when the question is demaunded touching the interpretation of Gods word the exposition of the worde of God not onely as profitable but also as necessary yet not for the same cause as these mē thinke neither yet wil wee fet it from the place frō whome these men suppose we wil take it for they think that that worde is so darkly deliuered that as thogh it were some darke thing it should neede light fetcht elsewhere then from it selfe and when we demand of them from whence at the length this light should be fet thē they lay vnto vs the vizard or bare shewe of the Catholique Church vnder which name somtimes they lay before the ignorant these or those of the Fathers sometimes the fragments of particular or general counsels to bee short they lay before them very often long custom for an argument that cannot bee refused to which thinges if a man doe not forthwith consent he is now layde open to the slaughter of the outragious people no knowledge of his cause beeing had before as thogh he were guilty of some haynous crime committed against God or man wheras in times past he was condemned to bee burned vnder some certaine colour of law And in deede this is now their zeale But we that we may in one word declare all thinges which belong to this
of the true church heresies might be distinguished from errors and haye stubble from those things which eyther of themselues or by reason of the opinion of worship brought in are either vngodly or superstitious and yet that all the gouernours of the Chucch ought to vnderstand that as the alter was not in time past to be builded of stones garnished by the diligence of man neither yet that it was lawfull for them so much as to fasten a naile in the Tabernacle but according to the paterne which Moses had seene in the mount euen so now also all godly magistrates indeede and all true shepheards ought to endeuour that in restoring the temple of the Lord by so many means fallen down they shoulde not onely restore those thinges which haue beene ouerthrown by Antichrists but also that they should most diligentlye wipe awaye all euen the lightest spottes that haue proceeded from the same Antichrists although they be as it were waxen hard vpon the walles of the temple and that marking partly by the story of former ages and partly by the beholding of the present ruins of the Churche these former euils of Satan they should at no hand suffer themselues to be mocked by the allegation of the fragmentes of certaine of the auncient fathers or by any vayn shew of custom but rather that they should not leaue of vntill by doctrine both the Ceremonies and all the Ecclesiasticall gouernment also be apted not vnto some figuratiue Image of shew which was needful vnder the schoolemastership of the law but exactly framed according vnto the moste perfect paterne which the sonne of God him selfe by his owne mouth his Apostles after him haue moste perfectly set forth vnto vs in their writings But cōcerning this matter we wil elswhere speake more fully as I hope when we shal answere those notable meane men who reprehend vs as ouer seuere exactors of that work especially whē we shal seuerally answere vnto the writing of Cassander to the end al men may vnderstand that none more hinder the worke of the Lorde than these Samaritans VVhich be the principal points of the Catholique faith or religion Now because I sée some not yéelding vnto these things which we haue spokē in general cōcerning the fundamental or principall points of our religion again to demād what those shold be I answer that these articles are to be called grounds or principles which being laid the whole building remaineth which being ouer thrown al things builded therupon fall to the ground And al these things we profes to haue bene described with great shortnesse plainnes out of the word of God in the Créed which they cal the Apostles Which thing ought to be added to the ten commandements the Lords praier of the which that to wit the ten commaundements doth verie compendiously set out the order of Christian life and this that is the Lords praier doth very briefly also set out right inuocation and praier This I say is that fundamental true and perpetuall mark of the Catholike church which shall neuer bee blotted out vnto the worlds end but which neuerthelesse ought to be expounded out of the wrytings of the Prophets and Apostles frō whence it is taken that al men may vnderstand it and keepe it as much as in them lyeth Now the order of this exposition is 2. VVhat exposition of Catholique doctrine is required in the Church fold one more familiar which is necessary for al men an other more large and far more plentiful as we sée that the Apostles creed was afterwardes expounded by some other Creedes of the holy Synodes that heresies might bee met withall the Consciences established more and more in sound doctrine Therfore albeit that to the ende that some man might be a true member of Christ it be not necessary that he should most exactely vnderstande for what cause thinges are spoken and set downe and should know the determinations of disputations in diuinitie Yet euery one ought to know according to his capacitie what he doth beleeue and why he doth beleeue and not to rest in the deuilishe inuention of faith which they call vnfolded that is to beleeue as the Churche hath determined and to aske no further but to adde also vnto that familiar instruction the exposition of holy writings That the true yea the Catholique church hath more then once wanted an ordinary and lawful ministery and therefore that that ordinarie and lawfull ordination and succession of Pastors vvas for a time broken off of which Paul setteth before vs foure pointes 2. Tim. 3. to wit doctrine reproofe correction and comfort All which are by diligent Pastors and teachers publikely and priuately to be applied to the capacities of the beleeuers It remayneth that we declare howe much we ought to giue to personal succession and ordination We haue sayde that the onely true perpetuall and necessary marke of the catholique Church is that doctrine which diuersly and sundry maner of wayes first by worde and afterward by wrytings hath bene deliuered by the Prophetes and at the last most perfectly declared by Christe him selfe and that by his owne mouth and by his Apostles For this word as euen after Christe him selfe Peter sayth is that seede by which the Catholique Churche both at the beginning of the world appeared and by which also it shall continue euen vnto the ende of the world But seed is to no purpose except it be sowen and the Lorde who both vnder the olde and vnder the new Testament appoynted an order for the sowing of this seed by the ministry of men hath I say necessarily appointed this sowing for otherwise the spreading abroade of this Churche woulde quickly end to endure to the ende of the world Be it so truely Then thou wilt saye ordination also and succession of those persons is a true perpetuall and necessary mark of the catholike church agréeing altogether with that other to wit the mark of sowing So our aduersaries do conclude but falsly and foolishly For that I may let passe those two thinges already confuted by vs that is to say because they babble of the succession of persons omitting the succession of that Apostolicall doctrine Moreouer because that they propoūd an other succession than that which hath beene begun by the Apostles them selues either they do not see or they dissemble that they do see albeit the sowing also and the sowers are required no lesse than the seede to the tilling of this fielde of the Church that the same order hath not alwaies bene kept either of sowing the seed or of ordeyning them vnto whome this sowing is committed And this notwithstanding they ought to haue learned both by the fore tellings of the prophetes and also by the holy histories which things remaineth to be proued of vs. The Church therfore I confes was neuer without the worde of God But let these men also shew vs that there hath bene some one