Selected quad for the lemma: order_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
order_n	bishop_n	ordain_v	presbyter_n	5,751	5	10.9253	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28884	The pride and avarice of the clergie, viz. parsons, vicars & curats, hindering the reformation discovered in a plain and familiar dialogue between Philalethes and presbyter / by Abraham Boun, gent.	Boun, Abraham.	1650 (1650)	Wing B3836; ESTC R30307	53,217	195

in the Church untill the harvest are hypocrites profane men shall be cashiered or rather never admitted into the Churches of Christ But I cannot devise how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seem as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5. 1. compared with chap. 3. 1. 3. chap. 4. 10. Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit. l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14. 23. Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I h●ld it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert. de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9 And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he hath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had

as I have described The Prebendaries and their appurtenances are justly cashiered see now if it be not high time to pluck up those also Pr. It doth not appear to me there is any evill in these names you shall find many godly and Orthodox Divines Parsons Vicars and Curats who shew themselves glad to be quit of all the Ceremonies and heartily desire a through reformation and some of these are not ashamed of the name Priest Ph. I pray sir forsake these Apocryphal and Popish names for a great part of the Religion of Antichrist is wrapped up in such names of his Creation as Cardinals Abbots Priors Arch-Bishops Lord Bishops Deanes Arch-Deacons Chancellrs Commissaries Parsons Officials Vicars Curats Priests c. Pr. For all these names and Orders but the four last we have nothing to do with them and what harm is in any of these four names or what offence comes by them I know not Ph. I shall endeavor to let you know somewhat of that evill which I conceive of them 1. First in their Institution and original they having no foundation in the Scripture are of Antichrists devising and in their nature and use contrarie or unlike to the Ministers of the Gospel who are only Pastors and Teachers For their original they grew up in this manner The Diocesan Bishop who in corrupt times was conceived to have the care of all the Churches in his Diocess which for the most part were endowed with all the Tythes of the Parish did usually appoint the Preists or Ministers which indeed were but the Bishops Curates or Clerks Fullers holy State Lib. 2. cap. 12. p. 87. citeth Conci Toledon An. 589. Can. 9. Now when the Bishop had given to the Minister the cure of souls and care of the Church with all the Tithes and profit● thereof undiminished by his Institution he was called the Rector or Parson which verie Institution being accepted was an acknowledgment that the right to the Church was originally in the Bishop and that made the Parson but the Bishops Curate or rather servant or Clerk and so it continued until the dissolution of the Bishopricks 2. Secondly the Vicar as a Clergie-man said was created or rather made by the Devil or the Pope for when the Parson grew too great or the Patron had founded a Monasterie or other superstitious house towards the maintenance thereof the tithes of several Parishes which formerly belonged to the Churches were appropriated and this was done by the Patron with consent of the Bishop and the incumbent Priest if there were any and sometimes this Appropriation was made by vertue of the Popes Bull and then the care of the Church was in the Governour of the house or otherwise according to the foundation who served the cure as they called it that is performed the Idolatrous service by a Monck of their house who was called the Vicar and to him there was allowed for his paines sometimes a stipend in monie sometimes the small Tithes c. such a proportion as he could agree for with his Master the Governor of the house And when the house came to the Crown by dissolution it stood charged with that stipend● or else the Vicar had the smal Tithes or such part thereof as formerly was agreed for and the Bulk of the Tithes became a Lay fee and were sold out and enjoyed as the superstitious house held them and the Composition or endowment of the Vicar remained and so continues as his portion to this day for serving the Church c. But usually he had his institution from the Bishop 3. Thirdly the Curate grew in this manner when the Bishop held a Parsonage in commendam in his own hands to augment his Bishoprick or a Parson grew idle or had severall Church-livings then they hired some inferior Priest for what they could to supplie the cure for a year a moneth or as they could agree and he was called the Curate who came and went according to his pay and at the discretion or will of him that hired him and so he continues to this day I tell you these things not because I suppose you know them not but to put you in minde how unlike these orders are to the Ministers of the Gospel for you see the Gospel had nothing to do to approve or disapprove of the pretended Minister Parson Vicar or Curate but all was originally in the Pope or in the Bishop his Vicegerent from whom the Bishop originally received his power which continued here in force for manie hundred years Cath. Devin. Respons Cook l. Caudrey Case pa. 4. And for the name Priest its true it is a contract of Presbyter but as it s used it commonly signifies a Popish Mass Priest and is a a derogation from the Office of the Lord Christ for I know none other sacrificing Priest in Gospel-sense but Christ who was the last Priest and the last Sacrifice Pr. Well I account there is no evill in these nams yet for offence sake I shall be willing to leave them and do conceive that the Ministers of the Gospel who are to continue to the perfecting of the Saints are properly Pastors and Teachers who ought to be maintained liberally and to have all incouragement by payment of all things due unto them Ph. I have alreadie told you what I conceive of their maintenance and particularly what I think of tithes But there is one thing which I wonder at why the Ministers should stand so much upon superstitious offerings and mortuaries Pr. They have been anciently belonging to the Church and although they of the Separation say they were the things of Idolaters I doubt not but they may be used being converted from their Idolatrous use Ph. As for those offerings which it seems you agree to be Popish as indeed the most of those Offerings were which were offered at the Altar called the Altarage of the Church some to Saints Idols or Devils to whom the Churches were dedicated others to the Virgin-Marie Some for Tapers and Lights and other superstitious uses others taken from the Jewes by the Papists I conceive all these unfit to be given to or received for the service of God for that some things of Idolaters not Idolatrous in State as their goods and houses may be made use of for maintenance of the service of God But those things of theirs which were Idolatrous in State that is such as were invented by Idolaters for perfecting their Idolatrie and served for no other use as all Popish Ceremonies and popish offerings ought not to be used by Christians And for those Jewish offerings it is no more lawful to use them to retain Circumcision and other Ceremonies of which Paul saith If you be circumcised Christ profits you nothing Gal. 5. 2. for that the retaining of Circumcision is a forsaking of Christ and makes us bound to fulfill the Law and with that all other Jewish Ceremonies are abolished And touching Mortuaries they are a foolish and