Selected quad for the lemma: order_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
order_n	bishop_n	degree_n	presbyter_n	3,055	5	10.4044	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92774	The diatribē proved to be paradiatribē. Or, A vindication of the judgement of the reformed churches, and Protestant divines, from misrepresentations concerning ordination, and laying on of hands. Together with a brief answer to the pretences of Edmond Chillenden, for the lawfulnesse of preaching without ordination. / By Lazarus Seaman.	Seaman, Lazarus, d. 1675.; Simpson, Sidrach, 1600?-1655.	1647 (1647)	Wing S2174; Thomason E413_9; ESTC R203508	93,768	122

he reputes it but a Ceremony yet elsewhere * Declaration pag. 39. The Divin● beginning and institution of Christs true visible or Ministeriall Church Argum. 7. he makes it to be of the foundation necessary to salvation ordinarily and unchangeable by men Whether these latter witnesses be to be reckoned among Protestant Divines especially in your account I shall leave it to you to judge But let this suffice at present to the question of Ordination Concerning IMPOSITION OF HANDS This is your Position pag. 13. IMposition or laying on of Hands is neither essentiall to a Ministers Call nor to his Ordination Ans Before I speak to the particulars wherein you pretend to the proof of this it seems necessary to preface a little concerning the Subject in generall that the Terms belonging to the Question may be the better understood When shall we know what you mean by a Call and how it shall be discerned what is essentiall to it Or to whom the power of Calling does belong Whether one way of Calling be precisely determined Or what manner of Ordaining is to be found in Scripture besides that of Laying on of hands At your leisure resolve these Enquiries distinctly that the Reader may be fully informed Till I am convinced of the contrary by your self or some other I shall presume that a Call is alwayes necessary yea a Call from God mediate or immediate That way of Calling mediately is to be followed in succeeding times which is warranted by precepts or example● in the New Testament In the nature of the thing it self Calling for the substance of the act is more necessary than this or that manner or rite of Calling Election may possibly he either by silence as in the discipline of the French Churches it is prescribed or by lively voyce or by holding up the hand or by writing The Church at Frankford in Queen Maries dayes had a peculiar way of choosing Ministers in part blindfold by a kind of Ballattingbox * Lyturgia in Ecclesia Pereg●inorum Frâ●oford●ae p. 51. For Ordination the Papists have devised many Rites not only by perverse applying of the examples of Christ and his Apostles but also by their own presumptuous inventions The Reformed Churches suffice themselves with Prayer Fasting and Laying on of hands Some few have used manus porrectione the giving of the right hand of fellowship in stead of Laying on of hands but though there be an instance of the use of that Ceremony in token of approbation between Paul and Barnabas on the one side and some of the Apostles at Jerusalem on the other part Gal. 2. 9. yet that will conclude nothing to the question of Ordination In such things as are indeed not pretendedly left unto the Churches liberty she may use it as makes most for edifying and about many Circumstances belonging to a Ministers Call there is a liberty supposed granted and taken and in some things necessary to be determined not so much by rule or Canon as per prudentiam practice practicam by the discretion of those who are pro hic nunc imployed in Calling To this purpose some speak largely enough * Quibus ritibus Doctores ecclesiae sint vocan●i quâ ratione publicum hoc docendi mun●● e●● sit delegandum ac imponendum non est expresse traditum sed liber●ari Ecclesiae relictum Magdeburgenses cent 1. lib. 1. cap. 4 pag. 118. lin 33. Modus elect●ni● nullus certus est prascriptus i● sacris literis Aretius probl parte 3. de Minist Vocati●●ata habenda dum vocatio Dei manet conjuncta foris aliquâ testificatione ipstu● quae qui●varia est desinire non possumus Armin. and more then I dare assent unto without due caution Yet this must be remembred that God is not sought after the due Order 1 Chron 15. 13. when any rite or manner of doing is omitted which is of his appointing And it 's safer to cleave unto warrantable examples even about circumstances then to presume too much of our freedome in devising any thing which may be called new or transferring the rite of one thing to another And many things which were in themselves and to the Apostles free and indifferent become by their example more or lesse necessary to us especially when their example is backed by the ●ptnesse or equity of the thing it self and either directly commended to us or enlivened with some insinuation that in doing as they did we shall do well The certainty of lawfulnesse is alwayes a sure point for us to center in As to the use of Laying on of hands to say nothing of that which was common to all Christians to be applied unto them upon severall occasions but of that which was used by those who were already in office in putting others into office also The Papists urging of it as a Sacrament as a meanes of conveighing the Holy Ghost as alwayes absolutely necessary and essentiall And those hands to be a Bishops as an Order or Degree superior to a Presbyte● gave occasion to some of the first Reformers in some parts to suspect it to judge it indifferent and to argue from the Apostles liberty in taking of it up and translating of it from ● Jewish use unto a Christian to their liberty of using or difusing it as they found expedient and the state of the Church in their times and those places where their lot fell made way For my part when I consider how uniform and accurate the Apostles were in observing it and of this rite alone in the matter of Ordination and that we have no instance or example of their Ordaining otherwise How unsafe it is to vary from their lawfull and imitable practise What advantage the Papists have to bring in other rites upon pretence of liberty And what danger might be by substituting another way of Ordaining then we have sure warrant for Of what consequence it is that Ministers should keep up a peculiar interest of acting in the name and stead of Christ by something peculiar to themselves and that this alone doth most cleerly hold it out beside the manifold uses of it which are expressed by Protestant Divines Though it be commonly called a rite and in that respect is but an adjunct so as it must needs seem harsh to call it essentiall yet I judge it sinfull for any who desire the office of a Minister to refuse it and scandalous in any Church wilfully to throw i● aside That it s more or lesse necessary in the judgement of Reformed Churches and their Divines cannot but be known to those who are acquainted with their writings The peace of the Church may be preserved among those who hold it lawfull and the dispute whether it be Essentiall might be spared Yet because though it were not essentiall your Proofs may fall short of that Conclusion I shall consider of them Your first Reason is Some have been made Ministers without it as the Apostles and Matthias Act. 1.

What he sayes of the precise urging of the Ceremony is to be understood of the urging of it upon Popish grounds The foolish questions which he means are those in a Popish Canon de triplici manuum impositione una Ordinatoria altera Confirmatoria tertia Curatoria and such like 5. It 's granted that he sayes expresly that Laying on of hands is not essentialis pars ritus legitimae vocationis and that it is in rerum indifferentium numero retineri omitti potest pro more regionis in qua electus ordinatur This last is more then you have yet acknowledged And if it be to be reteined pro more regionis according to the custome of the Country it must continue in use among us for ought that you have said or can say to prove it Non-essentiall Now thus it follows And with them agrees the Church of Scotland The Engl. pop cer pag. 168 169. Church hath full liberty to use any other decent rite or to use no rite at all beside a publike declaration the Church is not not tyed to use any rite at all by the Word of God in the giving of Ordination Ans What 's the matter that you cite this book so often Are you in love with English Popish Ceremonies or do you take that Book for an Oracle Or do you think the Church of Scotland will abide by every expression to be found therein Or is there no other way to know the sense of the Church of Scotland but by that Book Are you of the same judgement with that Church or any of those Protestant Divines whom you have cited so much as in this one head of Ordination and the rite of it I feare nothing lesse The Church of Scotland is at an agreement within it self and with such eminent Divines abroad as Chemnitius and Danaeus but you and they differ if I be not mis-informed more then a little But 2. to the thing it self Liberty of devising new rites in Ordination is neither s●fe to be granted by way of doctrine nor to be used in practice especially in those Churches which have suffered much under pretence and by the abuse of such liberty and who in other things are strict urgers of examples as binding and that in matter of Rite 3. Those Scriptures which tye the Church to Ordination tye her also to the Rite which we are speaking of Or tell us where you find a Scripture for the one and not for the other That which follows whether intended as a fifth reason or as an excursion only I know not though it be confused yet it sufficiently discovers what you aim at viz. To make those who were Ordained by Bishops no Ministers under pretence that they were Ordained by them as a Superiour Order unto Presbyters and so you slide into another Question Whether the Person ordaining or imposing hands be of the essence of the Call I shall lay down all your own words entire and then answer Thus you pag. 16. Yea suppose it essentiall and then whereas it hath been held against the Brownists that the Ministery in the Church of England is not null though the Bishops laid on their hands who should not have had a finger in it because an extrinsecall Circumstance failing or being corrupted a thing ceases not to be yet if it be made Essentiall what shall be said Seeing both in the Bishops intention in ordaining and in the profession of the Party ordained hands were laid on him not as a Presbyter formally but as one of a superior Order to Elders and for such an Order there is no Divine institution As therefore that Baptisme must be repeated which was administred by a person not lawfully called to the ministration of it if the Person ministring be essentiall to Baptisme so must that person be Ordained again who had hands laid on by a Bishop as a Bishop if Laying on of hands be essentiall to the Ministery Whatsoever wants its Essentials is not though it seems to be Ans Let the Questions be propounded distinctly which are here involv'd and then it will be easier for any one to judge 1. What will follow concerning the Ministery in the Church of England if Laying on of hands be essentiall I answer That the Ministers of England who have Hands laid on them have that which is essentiall to their Calling Who can imagine otherwise upon the supposition 2. But seeing Ministers in England were Ordained by Bishops as a superiour Order to Elders and no such Order is of Gods appointing nor ought to be is not their Calling null in that respect Ans No i● is not 1. Because neither Church nor State did ever declare Bishops to be a superiour Order though some of them for they were but some made such a claim The State hath often declared against it not only by books approved by them as in the dayes of Henry the 8. but by severall acts of Parliament in King Edwards time and since 2. Because Bishops only and alone were never authorised to lay on hands excluding other Pr●sbyters but together with them 3. Bishops were Elders first before they came to be Bishops and of Elders were made Bishops in way of accumulation not in way of privation Their error that they thought themselves a superiour Order above Presbyters could not make them no Presbyters 4. All Ordinations are counted valid which are performed in a setled Church with the consent of Magistrate Ministers and People whether the Ordainers be Bishop Superintendent or a Presbyterie This principle is maintained both by the Lutherans and Calvinists as you use to distinguish For the Lutherans I refer you to Hen. Ekhardus in opusculo de Ordine Ecclesiastico pag. 5● and to Nicolaus Hunnius Demonst Min. Lutherani pag. 294. For others Zanchy sayes quo supra Nihil refert sive ab omnibus praesentibus Ministris sive ab uno omnium nomine imponantur manus It matters not whether hands be laid on by all the Ministers who are present or by one in the name of the rest So he And I think it might be added nor how many be present the Quorum is but of prudentiall determination Pareus speaks more largely * Comment ad Rom. 10. 15. The lawfull Calling of the Church is that which is instituted in every Church by publike authority for Orders sake unto edification Neque enim uniformis est omnium ubique quoad circumstantias externas sed libertati Ecclesiae relicta 5. To speak my own judgement When sin cleaves to the manner of Calling through the generall error or corruption of all sorts who are concerned in it though such a Calling cannot be said to be legitima or legi proxima but is displeasing to God and null in some sense as unworthy receiving of the Sacrament is counted no receiving 1 Cor. 11. 20. and sinfull fasting no fasting Zach. 7. 5. yet it is not otherwise to be invalidated here below than by doctrinall censure and

Tim. 4. 14. 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5. Comming afterwards to speak more particularly quid cuivis statui propriè tribuendum sit what is properly to be given to every severall state that no confusion may arise and one state may not take to it self that which is peculiar to another after other things premised he makes this distribution of their parts Presbyterio competit exame● ordinatio inauguratio To the Presbyterie belongs examination ordination inauguration Magistratui Christiano nominatio praesentatio confirmatio To the Christian Magistrate nomination presentation confirmation Populo consensus suffragium approbatio vel etiani pro ratione circumstantiarum postulatio To the People consent suffrage approving or as circumstances may require postulation Id. loco cap. citatis sec 3. num 85. p. 93. num 86. p. 95. * vid. ead apud cund Augustana confession is par 2. cap. 1. Now Sir I beseech you recollect your self and tell whether in the judgement of the Lutherans Ministers and Elders as such have not an interest in the calling of a Minister or why the Peoples act should be essentiall and not the Ministers by vertue of any ground which they build upon and where you find in them Ordination and Imposition of hands so distinguished as they are here by you 2. The Calvinists do for the most part agree with the Hanc viz. electionem seu designationem Ministri dicimus non ad solom supremum Magistratum pertinere us Gretius alii judicarunt nec etiam ad solam ecclesiam Excluso magistratu ut alii volunt imprimis Anabaptistae Papistae sed dicimus ad totam Ecclesiam hanc electionem certo respectu pertinere ordine tamen debito observato ut praecant Ecclesiae praefecti adsentiatur populus quisque suo ordine Ant. Wallaeus locis com parte 2. de functionibus ecclesiasticis edit priore in 4. p. 907. Pertinet autem electio designatio ipsa ad totam Ecclesiam in quâ sit sed divers● ratione Pessime quoque hallucinantur qui non distinguunt quae sunt Presbyterii quae aut●m Plebis in electionibus istis partes sed quod est illius istitribuunt indicentes in ecclesiam Dei magnam omnino confusionem Praesbyterorum est personam quae idonea ad munus vacuum videri potest inquirere ex totepopulo camque designareoculis de ea inter sese agere conferre●raire enim toti Ecclesiae Presbyteri Cum autem hoc primum suffragiū ad praesbyteros pertineat non ad universam ecclesiam populū quemodmodū tamen quidem sentiu ut consentiose disputant Ratio est 1. quòd presbyteri pastores dicuntur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ecclesia Heb. 13. 7. undo sua voce su● que consilio praeire populo debent 2. Quòd illi ipsi sunt ecclesiae senatus ad quem prima rerum ecclesiasticarum deliberatio ac cura pertinet atque etiam referenda est 3. Exemplum ipsius primitivae ecclesiae Apostoli enim ipsi primi de diaconis eligen dis deliberant 4. Ex ipsa loquendi ratione quâ utitur Scriptura Act. 15 v. 22. 16. v. 4. 1 Cor. 16. v. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ex qua phrasi luce clarius intelligatur à populo universa ecclesia probari tantum vel improbari quae praesbyteri ipsi praepositi ecclesia ère ecclesia esse judicarant atque proposuerant 5. Exempla posterioris ecclesiae quae tum canonibus suis sanxit tum etiam usu ipso praxi demonstravit à plebe tantum essensum requiri ut quae à presbyterio gesta sunt justa aliqua ratione plebs vel rata haberet vel irrita faceret Sed fierit summus Magistratus fidelis in cujus territorio aliquis ad dignitatem ecclesiasticam est asciscendus debet cert● specialis istius Magistratus consensus praeter eum qui à toto populo praestatur expectari accedere Lamb. Danaeus com in 1. ad Tim. ad cap. 5. v. 22. p. 348 349 352 353 354. Vide plura in hunc sensum apud Bucanum loc 42. de Ministerio in respons ad quaest 39. Marcsium in Enchiridio de Minist potest discip ecclesiae p. 117. thesi 39 inter Canones ecclesiasticas Synodi Dordrac can 4. Zanch in 4. praec loc 4. qu. 2. to 4. p. 780. sequ Harmo Synodorum Belgic cap. 1. art 4. Lutherans touching the interest of Magistrates Ministers and People about the calling of a Minister though in manner of expression there be some difference yet in the substance of the thing it self there is an harmony Some speak of Calling others of Election both mean the same thing and ascribe it not to the People alone as you do with the Libertines Anabaptists Brownists and the like nor to the Magistrate alone as Grotius and the Erastians but principally and primarily to the Ministers and Elders and respectively to the whole Church 3. None of those writers in particular which you cite either in the body or margin of that paragraph pag. 7. exclude Ministers and Elders from sharing in the power and act whereby a meet person is made a Minister but every one of them hath more or lesse expresly for their interest For the Calvinists to giue them the first place I shall speak of them in order as you rank them Ames against Bellarmine tom 2. p. 76. hath nothing at all one way or other unlesse the Edition which I follow deceive me In that of Oxford 1624. p. 96. I find this Populus in judicando dirigi potest ac ordinarie debet à judicio aliorum pastorum electionem vel praeeunte vel comitante The people may and ordinarily must be directed in judgement by the judgement of other Pastors either foregoing or accompanying Election And in his book of Cases of Conscience lib. 4. cap. 25. num 27. Actus varii ad vocationem pertinentes possunt aliis committi ex ordine debent à praecipuis ecclesiae membris vel praesbyte●is praestari Cura etiam ut omnia rectè fiant pertinet ad Magistratum Divers actions pertaining to the calling of a Minister may be committed to some and according to order must be performed by the principall Members or Presbyters of the Church the care also that all things be done rightly belongeth to the Magistrate Crocius tels us the conspiracio of the people must not be taken for a lawfull call Non conspiratio populi pro perfectè legitimâ vocatione haberi debet * Anti-Socin disp 24. Of the rite of Ordaining he says Haec est constitutionis illius testificatio quae exemplo Apostolorum docetur licita neque extra casum necessitatis in Ministerio constituto temerè negligenda This is a testification of that Election which is taught to be lawfull by the Apostles example and not to be rashly neglected in a setled Ministery when there is no case of necessity Out of