in the case of Abraham's offering up Isaac and the Israelites spoiling the Aegyptians of their Jewels yet I need no other answer but this I directly deny that here is any contradiction at all For our question is not about the making of Images whether by Gods order or Mans but about the worshipping of them And albeit there were such Images made yet they were not made to be worshipped as I before proved nor was there any danger the people should worship them because they were not admitted to see them But I pray you answer me this one question I am told that divers of your own Authors confess that the Jews indeed were though Christians are not forbidden the use of Images by this command Is it so Pop. These indeed are the words of our famous Vasquez after he hath mentioned divers Authors for the contrary opinion There are saith he other Authors neither fewer nor inferiour to them who are of the contrary opinion which to me alwayes seemed most probable to wit that all the use of Images is here forbidden to the Jews and for this he quotes many of our approved Authors and Salmeron saith no less Prot. And you need say no more for then all these Authors thought your distinction of Image and Idol frivolous and that the word Pâ—sel is meant of any Images and not of Idols only as you foolishly distinguish and so your principal refuge is lost and you are convicted Idolaters and then if you repent not you know where your portion will be Go now and brag of the safeness of your Religion I see how little it is that you can say for your Worship of the Dead Saints and their Images let me hear whether you have any better Arguments for your Prayers for the Dead and Purgatory Pop. I am glad you mention that since all your Divines do agree that Prayer for the Dead was the practice of the Antient Church and Fathers Prot. If that be true it is not sufficient for your purpose for I am fully satisfied that the Fathers were not infallible and your own greatest Doctors think so too But Besides I am told that their Prayers for the dead were quite of another nature than yours and for other purposes and they were grounded upon some private opinions of theirs which you disown for they prayed not only for those whom you suppose to be in Purgatory but for those who you confess many of them never did come there they pray for all the Saints from the righteous Abel to this day they pray for all their Ancestors Patriarchs Prophets and Martyrs as I have heard it in some of their Liturgies Is it so Pop. It is so Prot. I pray you tell me what do you pray for the Dead Pop. We pray that God would deliver them from those dreadful pains of Purgatory Prot. Then if there be no Purgatory the foundation of your Prayers for the dead is gone Pop. I grant it Prot. Then let us discourse of the most fundamental point as we have hitherto done the rest will fall of course Therefore First I pray tell me your opinion concerning Purgatory Pop. Our Doctrine in brief is this That though God freely gives to all that are truly penitent forgiveness of their sins and freedom from eternal death yet since they have much venial sin and corruption in them in which oft-times they die therefore it is necessary that they should for the expiation of those sins and for the satisfaction of Gods Justice either do or suffer such Penances Fastings Prayers c. as are enjoyned them here or where those are not sufficient suffer the pains of Purgatorie Prot. I understand your Doctrine now let me hear two of your strongest Arguments to prove it I hear that Bellarmin threatens us that whosoever doth not believe Purgatory shall be tormented in Hell Is it true Pop. He doth say so and I am of his mind Prot. Then I hope you have very clear Arguments for it because you lay so great a stress upon it But first I have heard that this Doctrine of Purgatory is confessed by divers of your own Brethren to be but a new Doctrine Is it so Pop. I will not dissemble with you several of our Doctors have unadvisedly blurted out such expressions as these our famous English Martyr Fisher Bishop of Rochester confesseth That Purgatory was for a long time unknown and either never or very seldom mentioned among the Antient Fathers and Alphonsus de Castro saith That many things are known to us of which the Antient Writers were altogether ignorant and amongst them he reckons Purgatory which saith he the Greek Writers mentioned not and even to this day it is not believed by the Greek Church Prot. I suppose you do not think all these Antient Fathers were damned Pop. No God forbid for many of them were glorious Confessors and Martyrs Prot. Then I see Bellarmines threats are not very formidable But to let this pass How do you prove this Doctrine Pop. From plain Scripture 1. From Mat. 12. 32. Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world neither in the world to come Which clearly implies that some sins not forgiven in this world are forgiven in the next and that must be in Purgatory Prot. I pray you tell me what sins are they which are forgiven in Purgatory Pop. Not great and mortal but small and venial sins as we all agree Prot. Is not blasphemy against the Son of Man a mortal sin Pop. Yes doubtless But what of that Prot. If this Text proves the pardon of any sins it proves the pardon of that sin no less than others because the sin against the Holy Ghost is here spoken of as the only sin which is unpardonable in both worlds Besides Christ speaks thus in opposition to a corrupt opinion which I have heard now is and then was rife among the Jews to wit that divers of their sins were pardoned after this life and that this was one of their antient Prayers Let my death be the expiation of all my sins for they thought the sufferings of this life and death the last of them did free them from the punishments of the other life And I have heard that it was one of their sayings That every Israelite hath a part in the future life Are these things so Pop. To deal freely with you This is not only true but it is one of our Arguments for Purgatory that Jason the Cyrenian who lived long before Christs time expresly affirms that it is profitable to pray for the dead that their sins may be pardoned 2 Mac. 12. Prot. I think that is impertinently alledged for Purgatory for the sin those men died in was a mortal sin as you confess and therefore not pardonable in Purgatory But I thank you for this for now I am satisfied that it was an antient opinion among the Iews and so Christ had just
and that the Atheist ought to yield to them Pop. Yes doubtless for every man is bound to receive the truth especially when it is so proposed and proved to him Prot. It seems then by this when you list you can prove the Scripture to be the Word of God without taking in the Churches Authority I hope you will allow me the same benefit But again let me ask you your Church that you talk of which believes the Scripture to be the Word of God Doth she believe it to be the Word of God upon solid grounds or no Pop. Yes doubtless our Church is not so irrational as to believe without grounds nor do we pretend Revelation but she believes it upon solid Arguments Prot. I wish you would give me a list of their Arguments But whatever they be that are sufficient to convince your Church why should they not be sufficient to convince any private man Popish or Protestant or Atheist And therefore there is no need of the Churches testimony Or will you say the Church hath no other sufficient reason to believe the Scriptures but her own testimony that is she believes because she will believe Pop. God forbid that I should disparage the Church or give Atheists that occasion to scoff at the Stripture Prot. Then I also may be satisfied without the Churches testimony that the Scriptures are the Word of God and I am so by such Arguments as your self mentioned but really I cannot but smile to see what cunning sophisters you are how you play at fast and loose The same Arguments for the Scriptures are strong and undeniable when you talk with an Atheist and are all of a sudden become weak as water when a Protestant brings them Pop. But if you can prove in the General That the Scriptures are the Word of God yet you cannnot without the Churches Authority tell what Books of Scripture or which are Canonical and so you are never the nearer Prot. Here also I must ask you again How doth your Church know which Books are Scripture and Canonical doth she know this by Revelation Pop. No we leave such fancies to your Church Prot. How then doth she know this and why doth she determine it Is it with reason or without it Pop. With reason doubtless being induced to believe and determine it upon clear and undoubted Evidences Prot. I pray you tell me what are those Evidences upon which she goes Pop. I will be true to you our great Bellarmine mentions these three The Church saith he knows and declares a Canonical Book 1. From the testimonies of the Antients 2. From its likeness and agreement with other Books 3. From the common sense and taste of Christian people Prot. Since a private man especially one that besides learning and experience hath the Spirit of God to guide him which is that anointing given to all Believers which teaches them all things 1 Joh. 2. 27. may examine and apprehend these things as well as the Pope himself and better too considering what kind of creatures divers of your Popes are confest to have been he may therefore know without the Churches Authority what Books are indeed Canonical but I pray you tell me Do not you acknowledge those books to be the Word of God which we do that are in this Bible Pop. I must be true to you we do own every Book you have there but you should receive the Books which you call Apocryphal so that indeed your Bible is not compleat for you believe but a part of the written Word of God which I must tell you is of dangerous consequence Prot. If these Books be a part of Gods Word I confess we are guilty of a great sin in taking away from Gods Word and if they be not you are no less guilty in adding to it so that the only question is Whether these Books be a part of the holy Scripture or no Now that if you please we will try Bellarmines rules Pop. The motion is fair and reasonable Prot. First then for the judgment of the Antient Church let us try that I know you hold the Churches judgment infallible especially in matters of this moment and I suppose you think the Iewish Church was infallible before Christ as the Christian Church now is Pop. We do so and the Infallibility of the Iewish Church and High Priest Deut. 17. is one of our principal Arguments for the Infallibility of our Church Prot. Then only these Books of the old Testament were Canonical which the Jewish Church did own Pop. That must necessarily follow Prot. Then your cause is lost for it is certain the Jews rejected these Apocryphal Books which you receive and they reckoned only 22. Iosephus his words acknowledged for his by Eusebius are most express for us The Iews have only 22 Books to which they deservedly give credit which contains things written from the beginning of the World to the times of Artaxerxes other things were written afterward so the Apocryphal Books are granted to have been but they are not of the same credit with the former because There was no certain succession of Prophets and I am told divers of your learned Authors confess it as Catharinus Costerus Marianus Victor and Bellarmine himself whose words are these All those Books which the Protestants do not receive the Iews also did not receive and this is more considerable because to the Iews were committed the Oracles of God Rom. 3. 2. And neither Christ nor his Apostles did accuse them of breach of trust in this matter Moreover I am told and surely in all reason it must needs be true that the Canonical Books of the Iewish Church were written in the Iewish or Hebrew language whereas these were written in Greek only Are these things so Pop. What is true I will acknowledge It is so The Jewish Church indeed did not receive them nor yet did they reject them as our Canus well answers Prot. Either that Church did believe them to be Canonical or they did not if they did then they lived in a mortal sin against Conscience in not receiving them if they did not they were of our opinion Pop. Well what soever the Jewish Church did I am sure the Antient Christians and Fathers did receive these Books as a part of the Canonical Scriptures Prot. I doubt I shall take you tardy there too I am told that the Council of Laodicea in the year of our Lord 364. drew up a Catalogue of the Books of the Scripture in which as in ours the Apocryphal Books are rejected Pop. It is true they did not receive them nor yet reject them Prot. If they did not receive them that undeniably shews that they did not believe them to be Canonical and yet they diligently scanned the point and the Books had then been extant some hundred of years and they were far more likely to know the truth than we at this distance having then
of sin of God and of his Law that can so judge of such an horrid evil as Sin Scripture fully condemns this Doctrine It tells me that the wages of sin all sin without any difference is death even that death which is opposite to eternal life Rom. 6. 23. that He that shall break the least of Gods commands and teach men so though peradventure he do it ignorantly and so according to your opinion it is a venial sin shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven that is he shall have no portion there It tells me Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the Book of the Law to do them Gal. 3. 10. And he speaks of that curse which Christ underwent for us and redeemed us from It tells me that for every idle word that men shall speak they shall give an account thereof in the Day of Iudgment and by such words if not repented of they shall be condemned Mat. 12. 36 37. So now your foundation and one of the Pillars of Purgatory is gone And as for your other fansie that Christ did not satisfie for our temporal punishments I pray you tell me did not Christ suffer temporal afflictions Pop. Yes doubtless the whole Gospel is full of such sufferings Prot. Surely all that Christ suffered he suffered for us both in our stead and for our good He was cut off not for himself but for our sins Dan. 9. 25. It was for our sakes that he bare that temporal part of the curse to be hanged on a Tree and all that pain and shame was but a temporal punishment Gal. 3. 13. I read Isa. 53. that Christ bore our griefs and carried our sorrows v. 4. which was not only accomplished in this that he bare the guilt of our sins as S. Peter expounds it 1 Pet. 2. 24. but also in this that he delivered them from sicknesses and temporal afflictions as St. Matthew expounds it Mat. 8. 16 17. and both these consist well together since Christ removed both sin the cause and affliction the effect of it Pop. If Christ had satisfied for our temporal punishments then Believers should be free from all pains and loss and death which it is apparent they are not and therefore notwithstanding the fulness of Christs satisfaction they may be liable to pains in Purgatory as well as in this life Prot. To this I answer three things First Your inference from the pains of this life to the torments of Purgatory is weak and false I may and must believe that God afflicts his people here because Scripture and Experience put it out of doubt But that Cod will punish his people in Purgatory after this life no Scripture affirms You that can multiply your instances of the sufferings of Believers in this life and can tell us of Adam and David and Solomon and many others have not to this day been able though often urged to produce one instance of the sufferings of any one Believer after this life which one consideration is sufficient to overthrow this Argument in the judgement of any indifferent man Secondly There is not the same reason for the sufferings of believers here and those which you suppose in Purgatory nor are they of the same nature The present sufferings of Believers are necessary 1 Pet. 1. 6. You are in heaviness if need be both for Believers themselves to subdue the Flesh which in this life is potent and altogether needs such a curb By this shall the iniquity of Iacob be purged Isa. 27. 9. and to prevent their eternal damnation 1 Cor. 11. 32. as also for the terror and caution of other offenders So that albeit Christ hath fully paid the debt yet it is upon other accounts convenient that they should smart and suffer here But there is no such necessity nor use of Purgatory sufferings neither for Believers themselves since there is no mortification of corruption after this life no temptations to sin there no improvement of grace no fear of eternal damnation nor for example and warning to others For their fellow-sufferers in Purgatory you do not pretend they are at all edified by their sufferings and men here they neither see nor know any thing of these pains nor hath God revealed any thing concerning them but when God makes any examples to others he sets them in the view of others or at least acquaints them fully therewith as he did with Hell torments to this end It were a senslesâ— thing to hang up a man in Iamaica for the terror of those that live in England Besides the sufferings of Believers here do come from the love and faithfulness of God Heb. 12. 6. Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth Psal. 119. 75. In faithfulness thou hast afflicted me Accordingly good men have looked upon them as choice mercies Psal. 97. 12. Blessed is the man whom thou chastnest and Psal. 119. 67. It was good for me that I was afflicted and the denial of afflictions is threatned as a grievous punishment Is. 1. 5. Hos. 4. 14. 17. But now the sufferings of Purgatory are in all points contrary they are purely vindictive and the effects of meer wrath nor do you esteem those sufferings a mercy and your happiness but freedom from them And therefore your Argument from the pains of this life to those in Purgatory is foolish and absurd Thirdly Believers suffering here do not at all derogate from the fulness of our Redemption by Christ because as I have shewed admitting that to be compleat yet they are necessary for other purposes But your Purgatory sufferings do by communicating at least some part of his proper work to your selves You profess they wash away part of your sins which is Christs peculiar honor He washed us from our sins in his own blood Rev. 1. 5. You make them a part of the curse of the Law from which and not only from a part of it Christ hath redeemed us himself being made a curse for us Gal. 3. 13. You make them a real satisfaction in part to Gods justice which is not satisfied by all that Christ did or suffered without them And in a word you make men in part their own Redeemers and Saviours I hope by this you see how weakly you reason from present troubles to Purgatory torments and that notwithstanding your objection my first Argument stands good agâ—inst Purgatory My second Argument is this that the Scripture every where speaks of the state of Believers immediately after death as happy and blessed and that all the sufferings of Believers are confined to this life and of this we have many expressions and examples too in Scripture and not one to the contrary The sufferings of this present time saith S. Paul are not worthy to be compared with the glory Rom. 8. 18. He knew no other sufferings the afflictions of Believers are light and but for a moment and they too are in things that are seen 2 Cor. 4. 17 18.