errors of the Roman Church a reconciliation is impossible and damnable And yet he teacheth that their difference from the Roman Church is not in fundamentall points Now since among Protestants there is such diuersity of beliefe that one denieth what the other affirmeth they must be cōuicted in conscience that one part is in error at least not fundamētall and if D. Potter will speake consequently that a reconciliation between them is impossible and what greater diuision or Schisme can there be then when one part must iudge a reconciliation with the other to be impossible and damnable 39. Out of all which premisses this Conclusion followes That Luther his followers were Schismatiques from the vniuersall visible Church from the Pope Christs Vicar on earth and Successour to S. Peter from the particular Diocesse in which they receiued Baptisme from the Countrey or Nation to which they belonged from the Bishop vnder whom they liued many of them from the Religious Order in which they were Professed from one another And lastly from a mans selfe as much as is possible because the selfe same Protestant to day is conuicted in conscience that his yesterday's Opinion was an error as D. Potter knowes a man in the world who from a Puritan was turned to a moderate Protestant with whom therfore a reconciliation according to D. Potters grounds is both impossible and damnable 40. It seemes D. Potters last refuge to excuse himselfe and his Brethren from Schisme is because they proceeded according to their conscience dictating an obligation vnder damnation to forsake the errors maintayned by the Church of Rome His words are Although we confesse the (h) Pag. 81. Church of Rome to be in some sense a true Church and her errors to some men not damnable yet for vs who are conuinced in conscience that she erres in many things a necessity lyes vpon vs euen vnder paine of damnation to forsake her in those errors 41. I answere It is very strang that you iudge vs extremely Vncharitable in saying Protestāts cannot be saued while your selfe auouch the same of all learned Catholiques whom ignorance cannot excuse If this your pretence of conscience may serue what Schismatique in the Church what popular seditious braine in a kingdome may not alledge the dictamen of conscience to free themselues from Schisme or Sedition No man wishes them to do any thing against their conscience but we say that they may and ought to rectifie and depose such a conscience which is easy for them to do euen according to your owne affirmation that we Catholiques want no meanes necessary to saluation Easy to do Nay not to do so to any man in his right wits must seeme impossible For how can these two apprehensions stand together In the Roman Church I enioy all meanes necessary to saluation and yet I cannot hope to besaued in that Church or who can conioine in one braine not crack't these assertions After due examination I iudge the Roman errors not to be in themselues fundamentall or damnable and yet I iudge that according to true reason it is damnable to hold them I say according to true reason For if you grant your conscience to be erroneous in iudging that you cannot be saued in the Roman Church by reason of her errors there is no other remedy but that you must rectify your erring conscience by your other Iudgment that her errours are not fundamentall nor damnable And this is no more Charity then you daily affoard to such other Protestants as you terme Brethren whom you cannot deny to be in some errors vnles you will hold That of contradictory propositions both may be true yet you do not iudge it damnable to liue in their Communion because you hold their errours not to be fundamentall You ought to know that according to the doctrine of all Deuines there is great difference betwixt a speculatiue perswasion and a practicall dictamen of conscience and therfore although they had in speculation conceiued the visible Church to erre in some doctrines of themselues not damnable yet with that speculatiue iudgement they might ought to haue entertayned this practicall dictamen that for points not substantiall to fayth they neyther were bound nor lawfully could breake the bond of Charity by breaking vnity in Gods Church You say that hay stubble (i) Pag. 155. and such vnprofitable stuffe as are Corruptions in points not fundamental layd on the roofe destroyes not the house whilst the maine pillars are standing on the foundation And you would thinke him a mad-man who to be rid of such stuffe would set his house on fire that so he might walk in the light as you teach that Luther was obliged to forsake the house of God for an vnnecessary light not without a combustion formidable to the whole Christian world rather then beare with some errours which did not destroy the foundation of faith And as for others who entred in at the breach first made by Luther they might ought to haue guided their consciences by that most reasonable rule of Vincētius Lyrinensis deliuered in these words Indeed it is a matter of great (k) Aduers hares c. 27. moment and both most profitable to be learned necessary to be remembred which we ought againe and againe to illustrate and inculcate with weighty heapes of examples that almost all Catholiques may know that they ought to receiue the Doctours with the Church and not forsake the fayth of the Church with the Doctours And much lesse should they forsake the fayth of the Church to follow Luther Caluin and such other Nouelists Moreouer though your first Reformers had conceiued their owne opinions to be true yet they might and ought to haue doubted whether they were certaine because your selfe affirme that infallibility was not promised to any particular Persons or Churches And since in cases of vncertainties we are not to leaue our Superiour nor cast off his obedience or publiquely oppose his decrees your Reformers might easily haue found a safe way to satisfy their zealous conscience without a publique breach especially if with this their vncertainty we call to mind the peaceable possession and prescription which by the confession of your owne Brethren the Church Pope of Rome did for many ages enioy I wish you would examine the workes of your Brethren by the words your selfe sets downe to free S. Cyprian from Schisme euery syllable of which words conuinceth Luther and his Cōpartners to be guilty of that crime and sheweth in what manner they might with great ease quietnes haue rectified their conscience about the pretended errours of the Church S. Cyprian say you was a peaceable (l) Pag. 124. and modest man dissented from others in his iudgement but without any breach of Charity condemned no man much lesse any Church for the contrary opinion He belieued his owne opinion to be true but belieued not that it was necessary and therefore did not
proceed rashly and peremptorily to censure others but left them to their liberty Did your Reformers imitate this manner of proceeding Did they censure no man much lesse any Church S. Cyprian belieued his owne Opinion to be true but belieued not that it was necessary and THEREFORE did not proceed rashly and peremptorily to censure others You belieue the points wherin Luther differs from vs not to be fundamentall or necessary and why do you not thence infer the like THEREFORE he should not haue proceeded to censure others In a word since their disagreement from vs concerned only points which were not fundamentall they should haue belieued that they might haue been deceaued as well as the whole visible Church which you say may erre in such points and therefore their doctrines being not certainely true and certainely not necessary they could not giue sufficient cause to depart from the Communion of the Church 42. In other places you write so much as may serue vs to proue that Luther and his followers ought to haue deposed and rectified their consciences As for example when you say When the Church (m) pag. 103. hath declared her selfe in any matter of opinion or of Rites her declaration obliges all her children to peace and externall obedience Nor is it fit or lawfull for any priuate man to oppose his iudgement to the publique as Luther and his fellowes did He may offer his opinion to be considered of so he do it with euidence or great probability of Scripture or reason and very modestly still contayning himselfe within the dutifull respect which he oweth but if he will factiously aduāce his own conceyts his owne conceyts and yet grounded vpō euidence of Scripture despise the Church so farre as to cut of her Communion he may be iustly branded and condemned for a Schismatique yea and an Heretique also in some degree in foro exteriori though his opinion were true and much more if it be false Could any man euen for a Fee haue spoken more home to condemne your Predecessors of Schisme or Heresy Could they haue stronger Motiues to oppose the doctrine of the Church and leaue her Communion then euidence of Scripture And yet according to your owne words they should haue answered and rectifyed their conscience by your doctrine that though their opinion were true and grounded vpon euidence of Scripture or reason yet it was not lawfull for any priuate man to oppose his iudgment to the publique which obligeth all Christians to peace and externall obedience and if they cast of the communion of the Church for maintayning their owne Conceits they may be branded for Schismatiques and Heretiques in some degree and in foro exteriori that is all other Christians ought so to esteeme of them and why then are we accounted vncharitable for iudging so of you and they also are obliged to behaue themselues in the face of all Christian Churches as if indeed they were not Reformers but Schismatiques and Heretiques or as Pagans and Publicans I thanke you for your ingenuous confession in recompence wherof I will do a deed of Charity by putting you in mind into what labyrinths you are brought by teaching that the Church may erre in some points of fayth and yet that it is not lawfull for any man to oppose his iudgment or leaue her Communion though he haue euidence of Scripture against her Will you haue such a man dissemble against his conscience or externally deny a truth knowne to be contained in holy Scripture How much more coherently do Catholiques proceed who belieue the vniuersall infallibility of the Church and from thence are assured that there can be no euidence of Scripture or reason against her definitions nor any iust cause to forsake her Cōmunion M. Hooker esteemed by many Protestants an incomparable man yields as much as we haue alledged out of you The will of God is sayth he to haue (n) In his Preface to his bookes of Ecclesiastical policy Sect. 6. pag. 28. them do whatsoeuer the sentence of iudiciall and finall docision shall determine yea though it seeme in their priuate opinion to swarue vtterly from that which is right Doth not this man tell Luther what the will of God was which he transgressing must of necessity be guilty of Schisme And must not M. Hooker either acknowledge the vniuersall infallibility of the Church or else driue men into the perplexities and labyrinths of distembling against their conscience wherof now I spake Not vnlike to this is your doctrine deliuered elsewhere Before the Nicene Councell say you many (o) pag. 131. good Catholique Bishops were of the same opinion with the Donatists that the Baptisme of Heretiques was ineffectuall and with the Nouatians that the Church ought not to absolue some grieuous sinners These errors therfore if they had gone no further were not in themselues Hereticall especially in the proper and most heauy or bitter sense of that word neither was it in the Churches intention or in her power to make them such by her declaration Her intention was to silence all disputes and to settle peace and Vnity in her gouernment to which all wise and peaceable men submitted whatsoeuer their opinion was And those factious people for their vnreasonable and vncharitable opposition were very iustly branded for Schismatiques For vs the Mistaker will neuer proue that we oppose any declaration of the Catholique Church c. and therfore he doth vniustly charge vs either with Schisme or Heresy These words manifestly condemne your Reformers who opposed the visible Church in many of her declarations Doctrines and Commaunds imposed vpon them for silencing all disputes and setling peace and Vnity in the gouernment and therfore they still remayning obstinately disobedient are iustly charged with Schisme and Heresy And it is to be obserued that you grant the Donatists to haue been very iustly branded for Schismatiques although their opposition against the Church did concerne as you hold a point not fundamentall to the Fayth and which according to S. Augustine cannot be proued out of Scripture alone and therfore either doth euidently conuince that the Church is vniuersally infallible euen in points not fundamentall or else that it is Schisme to oppose her declarations in those very things wherin she may erre and consequently that Luther and his fellowes were Schismatiques by opposing the visible Church for points not fundamentall though it were vntruly supposed that she erred in such points But by the way how come you on the suddaine to hold the determination of a Generall Councell of Nice to be the declaration of the Catholique Church seeing you teach That Generall Councels may erre euen fundamentally And do you now say with vs that to oppose the declaration of the Church is sufficient that one may be branded with Heresy which is a point so often impugned by you 43. It is therfore most euident that no pretended scruple of conscience could excuse Luther which he might and
is persuaded that his owne opinions be true and that he hath vsed such meanes as are wont to be prescribed for vnderstanding the Scripture as Prayer Conferring of diuers Texts c. and yet their disagreements shew that some of them are deceiued And therefore it is cleer that they haue no one certaine ground whereon to relye for vnderstanding of Scripture And seeing they hold all the Articles of Fayth euen concerning fundamentall points vpon the selfe same ground of Scripture interpreted not by the Churches Authority but according to some other Rules which as experience of their contradictions teach do sometymes fayle it is cleere that the ground of their fayth is infallible in no point at all And albeit sometyme it chance to hit on the truth yet it is likewise apt to leade them to errour As all Arch-heretiques belieuing some truths and withall diuers errours vpon the same ground and motiue haue indeed no true diuine infallible fayth but only a fallible humane opinion and persuasion For if the ground vpon which they rely were certaine it could neuer produce any errour 28. Another cause of Vncertainty in the fayth of Protestants must rise from their distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamentall For since they acknowledge that euery errour in fundamentall points destroieth the substance of fayth and yet cannot determine what points be fundamentall it followeth that they must remaine vncertayne whether or no they be not in some fundamentall errrour so want the substance of fayth without which there can be no hope of Saluation 24. And that he who erreth against any one reuealed truth as certainly some Protestants must doe because contradictory Propositions cannot both be true doth loose all Diuine fayth is a very true doctrine deliuered by Catholique Deuines with so generall a consent that the contrary is wont to be censured as temerarious The Angelicall Doctour S. Thomas proposeth this Question Whether (o) 2.2 q. 3. ar 3. in â—orp he who denyeth one Article of fayth may retayne fayth of other Articles and resolueth that he caÌ„not which he proueth Argumenta sed contra because As deadly sinne is opposite to Charity so to deny one Article of fayth is opposite to fayth But Charity doth not remaine with any one deadly sinne therefore faith doth not remaine after the denyall of any one Article of fayth Whereof he giues this further reason Because sayth he the nature of euery habit doth depend vpon the formall Motiue Obiect therof which Motiue being taken away the nature of the habit cannot remayne But the formall Obiect of faith is the supreme truth as it is manifested in Scriptures and in the doctrine of the Church which proceeds froÌ„ the same supreme verity Whosoeuer therefore doth not rely vpon the doctrine of the Church which proceeds from the supreme Verity manifested in Scriptures as vpon an infallible Rule he hath not the habit of fayth but belieues those things which belong to fayth by some other meanes then by fayth as if one â—hould remember some Conclusion and not know the reason of that demonstration it is cleere that he hath not certaine knowledge but only Opinion Now it is manifest that he who relies on the doctrine of the Church as vpon an infallible Rule will yield his assent to all that the Church teacheth For if among those things which she teacheth he hold what he will and doth not hold what he will not he doth not rely vpon the doctrine of the Church as vpon an infallible Rule but only vpon his owne will And so it is cleere that an Heretique who with pertinacity denieth one Article of fayth is not ready to follow the doctrine of the Church in all things And therfore it is manifest that whosoeuer is an Heretique in any one Article of fayth concerning other Articles hath not fayth but a kind of Opinion or his owne will Thus far S. Thomas And afterward A man doth belieue (q) Ad 2. all the Articles of fayth for one and the selfe same reason to wit for the Prime Verity proposed to vs in the Scripture vnderstood aright according to the Doctrine of the Church and therfore whosoeuer fals from this reason or motiue is totally depriued of fayth From this true doctrine we are to infer that to retaine or want the substance of fayth doth not consist in the matter or multitude of the Articles but in the opposition against Gods diuine Testimony which is inuolued in euery least error against Fayth And since some Protestants must needs erre and that they haue no certaine Rule to know why rather one then another it manifestly followes that none of them haue any Certainty for the substance of their faith in any one point Moreouer D. Potter being forced to confesse that the Roman Church wants not the substance of fayth it followes that she doth not erre in any one point against fayth because as we haue seen out of S. Thomas euery such error destroyes the substance of fayth Now if the Roman Church did not erre in any one point of fayth it is manifest that Protestants erre in all those points wherin they are contrary to her And this may suffice to proue that the fayth of Protestants wants Infallibility 30. And now for the second Condition of fayth I say If Protestants haue Certainty They want the second Condition of Fayth Obscurity they want Obscurity and so haue not that fayth which as the Apostle saith is of things not appearing or not necessitating our Vnderstanding to an assent For the whole edifice of the fayth of Protestants is setled on these two Principles These particular Bookes are Canonicall Scripture And the sense and meaning of these Canonicall Scriptures is cleere and euident at least in all points necessary to Saluation Now these Principles being once supposed it cleerly followeth that what Protestants belieue as necessary to Saluation is euidently knowne by them to be true by this argument It is certayne and euident that whatsoeuer is contayned in the word of God is true But it is certaine and euident that these Bookes in particular are the word of God Therefore it is certaine and euident that whatsoeuer is contayned in these Bookes is true Which Conclusion I take for a Maior in a second Argument and say thus It is certaine and euident that whatsouer is contayned in these Bookes is true but it is certayne and euident that such particular Articles for example the Trinity Incarnation Originall sinne c. are coÌ„tained in these Bookes Therfore it is certaine and euident that these particular Obiects are true Neyther will it auaile you to say that the sayd Principles are not euident by naturall discourse but only to the eye of reason cleered by grace as you speake For supernaturall euidence no lesse yea rather more drawes and excludes obscurity then naturall euidence doth neyther can the party so enlightned be sayd voluntarily to captiuate his vnderstanding to that
you can possibly be saued But we haue no such dependance vpon you Nay the same Confession which acquits vs condemnes your selues For while you confesse a Reformatiō of the Old Church and neyther doe nor can specify any Visible Church which in your opinion needed no Reformation you must affirme that the Church which you intended to reforme was indeed the Visible Catholique Church if so then you cannot deny but that you departed from the Catholique Church are guilty of Schisme yea and of Heresy For if the Catholique Church was infected with erroneous doctrine which needed Reformation it followes that the errours were Vniuersall and that the Reformation conming after those errours must want Vniuersality of Place and Tyme and therefore be branded with the marke of Heresy For in true Diuinity a new and no Church are all one Moreouer the very Nature Essence of the Church requiring true fayth it is impossible to alter any lest point of fayth without changing the substance of the Church and Religion and therfore to reforme the Church in matters of faith is as if you should reforme a man by depriuing him of a reasonable Soule whereby he is a man And a Reformed Catholique are termes no lesse repugnant then a reasonable vnreasonable creature or a destroied existing thing Wherfore to say the Reformation did not change the substance of Religion but only cleansed it from corrupt and impure qualities are meer wordes to deceaue simple soules And it is a lamentable case that you can neuer be brought from such ridiculous similitudes as heere you bring of Naaman who was stil the same man before and after he was cured of his leprosy Of a field ouergrowne with weeds thistles c. and your Brethren are full of twenty such childish pretended illustrations whereas euery body knowes that leprosy is accidental to a man and weeds to a field but Fayth is essentiall to the Church and that Affirmation or Negation of any one reuealed Truth whatsoeuer are differences no lesse essentiall in fayth then reasonable and vnreasonable in liuing Creatures And Fayth it selfe being an accident and quality consisting in Affirmation or Negation to cleanse it from the corrupt and impure quality of affirming or denying is to cleanse it from its own Nature and Essence which is not to reforme but to destroy it Lastly from this your forced Confession not to erect a new Church but to purge the Old we must inferre that the Roman Church which you sought to purge was the Old Church and the Catholike Church of Christ For if you found any other Old visible Catholike Church which needed no Reformation then you neyther intended to erect a new Church nor to purge the Old 2. You say the things which Protestants (b) Pag. 61. belieue on their part and wherin they iudge the life and substance of Religion to be comprized are most if not all of them so euidently and indisputably true that their Aduersaries themselues do auow and receiue them as well as they If this be true and that the said Verities make vp the fayth of Protestants as you speake then what needed you a Reformation to teach men the fayth of Protestants which they belieued before Protestants appeared Or how can you be excused from Schisme who diuided your selues from that visible Church which belieued those verities which make vp your fayth You say If all other Christians could be coutent (c) pag. 61.62 to keepe within these generall bounds the wofull Schismes and ruptures of Christendome might be more easily healed O words most powerfull to condemne your selues who were not content to keep within those generall bounds which you confesse we belieued but would attempt new Reformations although with so wofull Schismes and Ruptures of Christendome as you hold worthy to be lamented with teares of bloud If our errors were not fundamentall your Reformation could not be necessary to saluation as when the wound or disease is knowne not to be deadly the cure cannot be necessary to the conseruation of life 3. The Reformation which zealous Catholiques did desire and with whose words you vainely load your Margent were not in fayth but manners For which if it be lawfull to forsake a Church no Church shall remaine vnforsaken But of this I haue spoken in the First Part. Luther was iustly cut of by Excommunication as a pernicious member which yet was not done till the Pope had vsed all meanes to reclaime him Prouincial or Nationall Synods may seeke to reforme abuses in manners and endeauour that the fayth already established be conserued but if they go about to reforme the Catholique Church in any one point they deserue the name of Conuenticles and not of Councels 4. What meane you when you say that you left the (e) pag. 67. Church of Rome in nothing she holds of Christ or of Apostolique Tradition Do you admit Traditions Are they fallible or infallible For if they be infallible then may they be part of the Rule of fayth If fallible they are not Apostolique 5. You goe then about to proue that our doctrines are First doubtfull and perplexed opinions 2. Doctrines vnnecessary and forraine to the fayth and 3. Nouelties vnknowne to Antiquity 6. You pretend they are doubtfull and say The Roman Doctours doe not fully and absolutly agree in any one point among themselues but only in such points wherin they agree with vs. If a manifest vntruth be a good proofe your Argument conuinceth If you thinke that disagreement in matters not defined by the Church argues difference in matters of fayth you shew small reading in our Deuines who euen in all those Articles wherein you agree with vs haue many different and contrary Opinions concerning points not defined as about some speculatiue questions concerning the Deity the Blessed Trinity Incarnation yea there are more disputes about those high Mysteries wherin you agree with vs then in others wherin we disagree and yet you grant that such disputes do not argue those maine points to be doubtfull And so you must answere your owne instance by which you might as well proue that Philosophers do not agree whether there be such things as Time Motion Quantity Heauens Elements c. because in many particulars concerning those things they cannot agree 7. In the second place you affirme our doctrines to be vnnecessary and superfluous because a very small measure of explicite knowledge is of absolute necessity But this is very cleerly nothing at all to the purpose For our Question is not what euery one is obliged explicitely to belieue but whether euery one be not obliged not to disbelieue or deny any one point sufficiently propounded by the Church as a diuine Truth Neither do we treate of ignorance of some points but of plaine opposition and contradiction both between you and vs and also among your selues You cite Bellarmine saying The Apostles neuer vsed (g) De verb. Dei lib. 4. cap. 11. to preach openly
anciēt times Priests could not liue with wiues And now I aske whether in good earnest you belieue that one may be made a Bishop who will not belieue the Resurrection nor wil be baptized or whether he may be baptized against his will The Answere therfore may be seen in Baronius who (m) Anno 410. n. 6. Spond demonstrates out of the Epistles of Synesius himselfe that he did these things not to be made a Bishop wishing as he affirmeth rather to dye then to endure so great a burthen wherin saith Baronius he seemes only to haue done in words that which S. Ambrose pretended in deeds which was to be esteemed incontinent and vnmercifull so to hinder his being made Bishop But these extraordinary proceedings may be admired but ought not to be imitated To say that the ten Tribes notwithstanding their Idolatries remained still a true Church cannot but make any Christian soule tremble to consider to what damnable absurdities and impieties they fall who leaue the Roman Church You falfify Magallanus (n) In Tit. 3.11 as if he with M. Hooker affirmed that If an Infidell (o) Pag. 117. should pursue to death an Heretique only for Christian professions sake the honour of Martyrdome could not be denied to him which is contrary to the words and meaning of Magallanus For he expresly teacheth that they do not participate of the grace of the Church but are dead parts and consequently not capable of saluation Only he sayth that they may be called mēbers of the Church because the Church can iudge and punish them It is impossible that any Catholique Author should teach that an Heretique remayning an Heretique that is actually and voluntarily denying a reuealed Truth sufficiently propounded for such can be a Martyr But such as you are may affirme what you please The words of Saluianus (p) De Gnbern lib. ◠which you cite and say that they are very remarkable do only signify by way of doubt whether some of the Heretiques of whom he spoke and who in simplicity followed their Teachers as he expresly sayth may not be excused by ignorance And since you affirme that he speakes of Arians I would know whether you do not thinke Arianisme to be a damnable Heresy vnles accidentally ignorance excuse some particular persons 7. You say that (q) Pag. 131. the Errors of the Donatists concerning the inualidity of the Baptisme giuen by Heretiques and of the Nouatians that the Church ought not to absolue some grieuous sinners were not in themselues hereticall c. Neither was it in the Churches intention or in her power to make them such by her declaration If these errours neither in themselues nor by the declaration of the Church be hereticall I pray you how are they hereticall May a mā in these tymes hold them without note of Heresy So you must say vnles you grant the definitions of Gods Church to be infallible For S. Augustine professeth that this point concerning rebaptization cannot be determined out of Scripture alone as hath been sayd before Or if you say this Errour may be confuted out of Scripture then you must grant that it is in it selfe hereticall which you deny But no wonder if by denying the infallibility of the Church you be brought to such straytes I goe on now to the next CHAP. V. IN this Section you handle three points First that the Church is infallible onely in fundamentall points Secondly that the Generall Councels and Thirdly that the Pope may erre in points fundamētall Concerning the first I haue spoken in the first Part the second and third are particular disputes from which you ought to haue abstained if you had meant to haue touched indeed the point of our Controuersy But since you will needs fill you Booke with such particulars I must also goe out of the way to answere your obiections 2. If I tooke pleasure as you doe to fill my Margent with quotations of Authours I could easily shew how you mistake and wrong our Schoole-men as if they held that something which in it self is not infinit but really distinct from the diuine Authority were the chiefe Motiue of fayth the first and furthest principle into which it resolues wheras their difference is only in explicating vnder what precise and formall consideration God is the formall obiect of fayth some assigning the Diuinity it selfe others the authority of God commanding others which is the common opinion teaching that it is resolued into the diuine or Prime Verity and lastly euen those whome it seemes you call vnwise and vnwarry Writers agaynst Luther doe not teach that the Authority of the Church is the chiefest first and furthest principle into which fayth resolues but at the most that her Proposition is necessary to an Act of diuine fayth eyther because they conceyue that matter of faith ought to concerne the common good of Religion and so require a publique Authority or Propounder or els because they hold that her Proposition in some sort enters into the formall obiect of fayth in respect of vs Neither are the Authors of this opinion only Writers against Luther as you say but diuers other Schoole-Deuines 3. Wheras you say that there is no question but that Fayth is supernaturall in regard of the Efsicient Cause and of the Obiect both which ought to be supernaturall it seemes you are willing to dissemble the doctrine of your great Reformer Zwinglius who (a) Tom. 2. exposit fidei Christianae fol. 159. out of his excessiue Charity placed in heauen Hercules Theseus Socrates Aristides c. who had no supernaturall Fayth nor beliefe of God as also the Children of the Heathens dying without (b) Tom. 2. fol. 540. Baptisme Were not such Charitable men very fit to reforme the Church 4. You fall againe vpon the sufficiency of Scripture which point I haue already answered shewed in what sense all points of fayth may be contained in Scripture to wit in as much as the Scripture doth recommend to vs the Church and diuine vnwritten Traditions Neither can you alleage any one Catholique Author ancient or moderne who speaking of the sufficiency of Scripture excludes Tradition by which euen Scripture it selfe is deliuered to vs. And as for S. Augustine and S. Basill whom you alleage for the sufficiency of Scripture they be so cleerly for Tradition that they haue been taxed by some Protestants for that cause as likewise for the same reason some chiefe Protestants haue blamed Clemens Alexandrinus Origen Epiphanius Ambrose Hierome Maximus Theophilus Damascene Chrysostome Tertullian Cyprian Leo Eusebius and others as may be seene in (c) Tract 1. Sect. 3. Subd 22. Brereley But though Scripture alone did particularly containe all points necessary to saluarion doth it follow thinke you from thence that the Church is not infallible May not both Scripture and Church be infallible in what they deliuer Doth not your selfe grant that the Church is infallible for points fundamentall and for
infallibility because it being euident that she is the selfe same Church which was founded by our Sauiour Christ and continued from the Apostles to this Age by a neuer interrupted succession of Pastours and faythfull people it followes that she is the Church of Christ which being once granted it is further inferred that all are obliged to haue recourse to her and to rest in her iudgement for all other particular points which cōcerne faith or Religion which we could not be obligd to doe if we were persuaded that she were subiect to errour Which yet is more euident if we add that there can be no Rule giuen in what points we should belieue her and in what not and therefore we are obliged to belieue her in all Moreouer since the true Church must be Iudge of Controuersies in fayth as we haue proued it cleerly followes that she must be infallible in all points Which vmuersall infallibility being supposed out of the generall ground of Gods prouidence which is not defectiue in things necessary we may afterward belieue the same infallibility euen by the Church herselfe when she testifies that particular point of her owne infallibility As the Scripture cannot giue Testimony to it selfe till first it be belieued to be Gods word yet this being once presupposed it may afterward giue Testimony to it selfe as S. Paul affirmeth that All Scripture is diuinely (u) 2. Tim. 3.16 inspired c. Secondly I answere that the Church hath many wayes declared her owne infallibility which she professeth euen in the Apostles Creed I belieue the holy Catholique Church For she could not be holy if she were subiect to error in matters of fayth which is the first foundation of all sanctity she could not be Catholique or Vniuersal for all Ages if at any time she could erre and be Author that the whole world should erre in points reuealed by God she could not be One or Apostolicall as she professeth in another Creed if she were diuided in points of fayth or could swarue from the Doctrine of the Apostles she could not be alwayes existent and visible because euery error in fayth destroies all Fayth the Church So that while the Church and euery faythfull person belieues professes the Sanctity Vniuersality Vnity and Perpetuall Visibility of the Church she and they belieue proclaime her infallibility in all matters of fayth which she doth also auouch by accursing all such as belieue not her definitions and while in all occasions of emergent Controuersies she gathers Councels to determine them without examining whether they concerne points fundamentall or not fundamentall while in all such holy Assemblies she sayth with the first Councell It hath (w) Act. 15. seemed to the holy Ghost and vs while she proposeth diuers points to be belieued which are not contained in Scripture as that those who are baptized by Heretiques cannot without sacriledge be rebaptized that Baptisme of Infants is lawfull that Easter is to be kept at a certaine time against the Heretiques called Quartadecimani that the Blessed Virgin the most Immaculate Mother of God was eternally a most pure Virgin that such particular Matter and Forme is necessary for the validity of Sacraments that such particular Bookes Chapters and lines are the word of God with diuers such other points of all which we may say that which S. Augustine said about Rebaptization of Heretiques The obscurity of this Question (x) Lib. 1. cont Donat cap. 7. before the schisme of Donatus did so mooue mon of great note and Fathers and Bishops endued with great Charity to debate and doubt without breach of peace that for a long time in seuerall Regions there were diuers and doubtfull decrees till that which was truly belieued was vndoubtedly established by a full Councell of the whole world And yet the point declared in that Councell was neither fundamentall in your sense nor contained in Scripture And to the same effect are the words of S. Ambrose who speaking of the Heretiques condemned in the Councell of Nice sayth that They were not condemned by humane (y) Lib. 1. defid ad Gratian cap. 5. industry but by the authority of those Fathers as likewise the last Generall Councell of Trent defines That it belongs to the Church (z) 1. Sess 4. to iudge of the true sense and interpretation of Scripture which must needs suppose her infallibility And lastly the thirst that euery one who desires to saue his soule feeles in his soule to find out the true Church and the quiet which euery one conceiues he shall enioy if once he find her shewes that the very sense and feeling of all Christians is that the Church is infallible For otherwise what great comfort could any wiseman conceiue to be incorporated in a Church which is conceiued to be subiect to error in matters of fayth 21. For want of better arguments you also alledge (a) pag. 161. some Authors within the Roman Church of great learning as you say who haue declared their opinion that any particular Churchs and by consequence the Roman any Councels though Generall may erre But though that which you affirme were true it would fall short of prouing that the Catholique Church is not infallible in all points For besides particular Churches or Generall Councels there is the common Consent of all Catholiques knowne by perpetuall sacred Tradition and there is likewise the continued Succession of Bishops and Pastors in which if one should place an vniuersall infallibility it were sufficient to ouerthrow your assertion of the fallibility of the Church And euen your selfe teach that the Church is infallible in all fundamentals and yet you affirme that any particular or Generall Councell may erre euen to Heresy or Fundamentall and Damnable errours And therfore you must grant that according to your Principles it is one thing to say Generall Councels may erre and another that the Catholique Church may erre But yet for the thing it selfe it is a matter of fayth that true Generall Councels confirmed by the Pope cannot erre And if any hold the contrary he cannot be excused except by ignorance or inaduertence And as for the Romane Authors which you cite Occham is no competent witnes both because that worke of his dialogues which you cite is condemned and because he himselfe was a knowne enemy and rebellious against the sea Apostolique Besides the words which you cite out of him against the Authority of Councels are not his opinion but alledged for arguments sake for so he professeth expresly in the very preface of that worke and often repeats it that he doth not intend to deliuer any opinion of his owne Thirdly wheras he alledgeth reasons for and against Councels he alledgeth but fine against them and seauen for them Lastly before he comes to dispute against Councels he doth in two seuerall (b) Dialog lib. 5.1 part cap. 25. c. 28. places in the very beginning of those Chapters of which
fayth Or that the Church of Rome as it signifies that particuler Church or diocesse is not all one with the vniuersall Church Or that the Pope as a priuate Doctour may erre With many other such points as will easily appeare in their proper places It wil also be necessary for him not to put certaine Doctrines vpon vs from which he knowes we disclaime as much as himselfe 10. I must in like manner intreate him not to recite my reasons discourses by halfes but to set theÌ„ down faythfully entirely for as much as in very deed concernes the whole substance of the thing in questioÌ„ because the want somtime of one word may chance to make voyd or lessen the force of the whole argumeÌ„t And I am the more solicitous about giuing this particuler caueat because I find how ill he hath complied with the promise which he made in his Preface to the Reader not to omit without answere any one thing of moment in all the discourse of Charity Mistaken Neither will this course be a cause that his Reioynder grow too large but it will be occasion of breuity to him and free me also from the paines of setting downe all the words which he omits and himself of demonstrating that what he omitted was not materiall Nay I will assure him that if he keep himselfe to the point of euery difficulty and not weary the Reader and ouercharge his margent with vnnecessary quotations of Authors in Greeke and Latin and sometime also in Italian and French togeather with prouerbs sentences of Poets and such grammaticall stuffe nor affect to cite a multitude of our Catholique Schoole deuines to no purpose at all his Booke will not exceed a competent size nor will any man in reason be offended with that length which is regulated by necessity Agayne before he come to set downe his answere or propose his Arguments let him consider very wel what may be replied and whether his owne obiections may not be retorted against himselfe as the Reader will perceiue to haue hapned often to his disaduantage in my Reply against him But especially I expect and Truth it selfe exacts at his hand that he speake cleerly and distinctly and not seeke to walke in darknes so to delude and deceiue his Reader now saying and then denying and alwayes speaking with such ambiguity as that his greatest care may seeme to consist in a certaine art to find a shift as his occasions might chance eyther now or heereafter to require and as he might fall out to be vrged by diuernty of seuerall arguments And to the end it may appeare that I deale plainely as I would haue him also do I desire that he declare himselfe concerning these points 11. First whether our Sauiour Christ haue not alwayes had and be not euer to haue a visible true Church on earth whether the contrary doctrine be not a damnable Heresy 12. Secondly what visible Church there was before Luther disagreeing from the Roman Church and agreeing with the pretended Church of Protestants 13. Thirdly Since he will be forced to grant that there caÌ„ be assigned no visible true Church of Christ distinct from the Church of Rome and such Churches as agreed with her when Luther first appeared whether it do not follow that she hath not erred fundamentally because euery such errour destroies the nature and being of the Church and so our Sauiour Christ should haue had no visible Church on earth 14. Fourthly if the Roman Church did not fall into any fundamentall errour let him tell vs how it can be damnable to liue in her Communion or to maintaine errours which are knowne confessed not to be fundamentall or damnable 15. Fiftly if her Errours were not damnable nor did exclude saluation how can they be excused from Schisme who forsooke her Communion vpon pretence of errours which were not damnable 16. Sixtly if D. Potter haue a mind to say that her Errours are damnable or fundamentall let him do vs so much charity as to tell vs in particuler what those fundamentall errours be But he must still remember and my selfe must be excused for repeating it that if he say the Roman Church eâ—â—ed fundamentally he will not be able to shew that Christ our Lord had any visible Church on earth when Luther appeared let him tel vs how Protestants had or can haue any Church which was vniuersall and extended herselfe to all ages if once he grant that the Roman Church ceased to be the true Church of Christ and consequenly how they can hope for Saluation if they deny it to vs. 17. Seauenthly whether any one Errour maintayned against any one Truth though neuer so small in it selfe yet sufficiently propounded as testified or reuealed by almighty God do not destroy the Nature and Vnity of Faith or at least is not a grieuous offence excluding Saluation 18. Eightly if this be so how can Lutherans Caluinists Zuinglians and all the rest of disagreeing ProtestaÌ„ts hope for saluation since it is manifest that some of them must needs erre against some such truth as is testified by almighty God either fundamentall or at least not fundamentall 19. Ninthly we constantly vrge and require to haue a particuler Catalogue of such points as he calls fundamentall A catalogue I say in particuler and not only some generall definition or description wherein Protestants may perhaps agree though we see that they differ when they come to assigne what points in particuler be fundamentall and yet vpon such a particuler Catalogue much depends as for example in particuler whether or no a maÌ„ do not erre in some point fundamentall or necessary to saluation and whether or no Lutherans Caluinists and the rest do disagree in fundamentals which if they do the same Heauen cannot receiue them all 20. Tenthly and lastly I desire that in answering to these points he would let vs know distinctly what is the doctrine of the Protâ—stant English Church concerning them and what he vtters only as his owne priuate opinion 21. These are the questions which for the present I find it fit and necessary for me to aske of D. Potter or any other who will defend his cause or impugne ours And it will be in vaine to speake vainely and to tell me that a Foole may aske more questions in an houre then a wiseman can answere in a yeare with such idle Prouerbs as that For I aske but such questions as for which he giues occasion in his Booke and where he declares not himselfe but after so ambiguous and confused a manner as that Truth it selfe can scarce tell how to conuince him so but that with ignorant and ill-iudging men he will seeme to haue somewhat left to say for himselfe though Papists as he calls them and Puritans should presse him contrary wayes at the same tyme and these questions concerne things also of high importance as wherevpon the knowledge of Gods Church true Religion and consequently Saluation of
consequeÌ„ce because if once we doubt of one Booke receiued for Canonicall the whole Canon is made doubtfull and vncertayne and therefore the Infallibility of Scripture must be vniuersall and not confined within compasse of points fundamentall 15. I answere For the thing it selfe it is very true that if I doubt of any one parcell of Scripture receaued for such I may doubt of all And thence by the same parity I inferre that if we did doubt of the Churches Infallibility in some points we could not belieue her in any one and consequently not in propounding Canonicall Bookes or any other points fundamentall or not fundamentall which thing being most absurd and withall most impious we must take away the ground thereof belieue that she cannot erre in any point great or small and so this reply doth much more strengthen what we intended to proue Yet I add that Protestants cannot make vse of this reply with any good coherence to this their distinction and some other doctrines which they defend For if D. Potter can tell what points in particuler be fundamentall as in his 7. Sect. he pretendeth then he may be sure that whensoeuer he meets with such points in Scripture in them it is infallibly true although it might erre in others not only true but cleere because Protestants teach that in matters necessary to Saluation the Scripture is so cleere that all such necessary Truths are eyther manifestly contayned therein or may be cleerely deduced from it Which doctrines being put togeather to wit That Scriptures cannot erre in points fundamentall that they cleerely containe all such points and that they can tell what points in particuler be such I meane fundamentall it is manifest that it is sussicieÌ„t for Saluation that Scripture be infallible only in points fundamentall For supposing these doctrines of theirs to be true they may be sure to find in Scripture all points necessary to saluation although it were fallible in other points of lesse moment Neyther will they be able to auoyde this impiety against holy Scripture till they renounce their other doctrines and in particuler till they belieue that Christs promises to his Church are not limited to points fundamentall 16. Besides from the fallibility of Christs Catholique Church in some points it followeth that no true Protestant learned or vnlearned doth or can with assurance belieue the vniuersall Church in any one point of doctrine Not in points of lesser momeÌ„t which they call not fundamentall because they belieue that in such points she may erre Not in fundamentalls because they must know what points be fundamentall before they go to learne of her least other wise they be rather deluded then instructed in regard that her certaine and infallible direction extends only to points fundamentall Now if before they addresse themselues to the Church they must know what points are fundamentall they learne not of her but will be be as fit to teach as to be taught by her How then are all Christians so often so seriously vpon so dreadfull menaces by Fathers Scriptures and our blessed Sauiour himselfe counselled and commaunded to seeke to heare to obey the Church S. Augustine was of a very different mind from Protestants If sayth he the (s) Epist. 118. Church through the whole world practise any of these things to dispute whether that ought to be so done is a most insolent madnes And in another place he sayth That which (t) lib. 4. de Bapt. c. 24. the whole Church holds and is not ordained by CouÌ„cels but hath alwaies beene kept is most rightly belieued to be deliuered by Apostolicall authority The same holy Father teacheth that the custome of baptizing children cannot be proued by Scripture alone and yet that it is to be belieued as deriued from the Apostles The custome of our Mother the (u) lib. 10. de Genesi ad liter cap. 23. Church saith he in baptizing infants is in no wise to be contemned nor to be accounted superfluous nor is it at all to be belieued vnles it were an Apostolicall Tradition And elsewhere Christ (w) Serm. 54. de verbis Apost c. 18. is of profit to Children baptized Is he therefore of profit to persons not belieuing But God forbid that I should say Infants doe not belieue I haue already sayd he belieues in another who sinned in another It is sayd he belieues it is of force and he is reckoned among the faythfull that are baptized This the authority of our Mother the Church hath against this stâ—eÌ„gth against this inuincible wal whosoeuer rusheth shal be crushed in pieces To this argument the Protestants in the CoÌ„ference at Ratisbon gaue this round answer Nos ab Augustino (x) See Protocoll Monac edit 2. pag. 367. hac in parte liberè dissentimus In this we plainely disagree from Augustine Now if this doctrine of baptizing Infants be not fundamentall in D. Potters sense then according to S. Augustine the infallibility of the Church extends to points not fundamentall But if on the other side it be a fundamentall point then according to the same holy Doctour we must rely on the authority of the Church for some fundamentall point not contained in Scripture but deliuered by Tradition The like argument I frame out of the same Father about the not rebaptizing of those who were baptized by Heretiques whereof he excellently to our present purpose speaketh in this manner We follow (y) lib. 1. cont Crescon cap. 32. 33. indeed in this matter euen the most certaine authority of Canonicall Scriptures But how Consider his words Although verily there be brought no example for this point out of the Canonicall Scriptures yet euen in this point the truth of the same Scriptures is held by vs while we do that which the authority of Scriptures doth recommend that so because the holy Scripture cannot deceiue vs whosoeuer is afraid to be deceiued by the obscurity of this question must haue recourse to the same Church concerning it which without any ambiguity the holy Scripture doth demonstrate to vs. AmoÌ„g many other points in the aforesaid words we are to obserue that according to this holy Father when we proue some points not particulerly contained in Scripture by the authority of the Church euen in that case we ought not to be said to belieue such points without Scripture because Scripture it selfe recommends the Church and therfore relying on her we rely on Scripture without danger of being deceiued by the obscurity of any question defined by the Church And else where he sayth Seing this is (z) De vnit Eccles c. 19. written in no Scripture we must belieue the testimony of the Church which Christ declareth to speake the truth But it seemes D. Potter is of opinion that this doctrine about not rebaptizing such as were baptized by Heretiques is no necessary point of faith nor the contrary an heresy wherin he coÌ„tradicteth S. Augustine from whom we haue now
his Sermon of the Vnity of the Catholique fayth grants Saluation to the Aethiopians who yet with Christian Baptisme ioyne CircuÌ„cision D. Potter (q) Pag. 113.114 cites the doctrine of some whome he termeth men of great learning and iudgement that all who professe to loue and honour IESVS-CHRIST are in the visible Christian Church and by Catholiques to be reputed Brethren One of these men of great learning and iudgment is Thomas Morton by D. Potter cited in his Margent whose loue honour to Iesus-Christ you may perceyue by his saying that the Churches of Arians who denyed our Sauiour Christ to be God are to be accounted the Church of God because they doe hold the foundation of the Ghospell Morton in his Treatise of the King dome of Israel pag. 94. which is Fayth in Iesus-Christ the Sonne of God and Sauiour of the world And which is more it seemeth by these charitable men that for being a member of the Church it is not necessary to belieue one only God For D. Potter (r) pag. 121. among the arguments to proue Hookers Mortons opinion brings this The people of the ten Tribes after their defection notwithstanding their grosse corruptions and Idolatry remained still a true Church We may also as it seemeth by these mens reasoning deny the Resurrection and yet be meÌ„bers of the true Church For a learned man sayth D. Potter (s) pag. 122. in behalfe of Hookers and Mortons opinion was anciently made a Bishop of the Catholique Church though he did professedly doubt of the last ResurrectioÌ„ of our bodies Deere Sautour What tymes doe we behold If one may be a member of the true Church and yet deny the Trinity of Persons the God head of our Sauiour the necessity of Baptisme if we may vse Circumcision and with the worship of God ioyne Idolatry wherin doe we differ from Turks and Iewes or rather are we not worse then eyther of them If they who deny our Sauiours diuinity might be accounted the Church of God how will they deny that fauour to those ancient Heretiques who denyed our Sauiours true humanity and so the totall deny all of Christ will not exclude one from being a member of the true Church S. Huary (t) CommeÌ„t in Matt. c. 16. maketh it of equall necessity for Saluation that we belieue our Sauiour to be true God and true Man saying This manner of Confession we are to hold that we remember him to be the Sonne of God and the Sonne of Man because the one without the other can giue no hope of Saluation And yet D. Potter sayth of the aforesayd doctrine of Hooker and Morton The (u) pag. 123. Reader may be pleased to approue or reiect it as he shall find cause And in another place (w) pag. 253. he sheweth so much good liking of this doctrine that he explicateth and proueth the Churches perpetuall Visibility by it And in the second Edition of his booke he is carefull to declare and illustrate it more at large then he had done before howsoeuer this sufficiently sheweth that they haue no certainty what points be fundamentall As for the Arians in particuler the Authour whome D. Potter cites for a moderate Catholike but is indeed a plaine Heretique or rather Atheist Lucian-like resting at all Religion placeth Arianisme among fundamentall errors But (x) A moderate examination c. ç. 1. paulo post initiuâ—â— contrarily an English Protestant Deuine masked vnder the name of Irenaeus Philalethes in a little Booke in Latin entituled Dissertatio de pace concordiae Ecclesiae endeauoureth to proue that euen the deniall of the blessed Trinity may stand with saluation Diuers Protestants haue taught that the Roman Church erreth in fundamentall points But D. Potter and others teach the contrary which could not happen if they could agree what be fundamentall points You brand the Donatists with the note of an Error in the matter (y) pag. 126 and nature of it properly hereticall because they taught that the Church remained only with them in the part of Donatus And yet many Protestants are so far from holding that Doctrine to be a fundamentall error that themselues goe further and say that for diuers ages before Luther there was no true visible Church at all It is then too too apparent that you haue no agreement in specifying what be fundamentall points neither haue you any meanes to determine what they be for if you haue any such meanes why do you not agree You tell vs the Creed containes all points fundamentall which although it were true yet you see it serues not to bring you to a particuler knowledge and agreement in such points And no wonder For besides what I haue said already in the beginning of this Chapter am to deliuer more at large in the next after so much labour and paperspent to proue that the Creed coÌ„taynes all fundamentall points you conclude It remaines (a) pag. 241. very probable that the Creed is the perfect Summary of those fundament all truths wherof consists the Vnity of fayth and of the Catholique Church Very probable Then according to all good Logick the contrary may remaine very probable and so all remaine as full of vncertainty as before The whole Rule say you the fol Iudge of your faith must be Scripture Scripture doth indeed deliuer diuine Truths but feldome doth qualify them or declare whether they be or be not absolutly necessary to saluation You fall (b) pag. 215 heauy vpon Charity Mistaken because he demands a particuler Catalogue of fundamental points which yet you are obliged in conscience to doe if you be able For without such a Catalogue no man can be assured whether or no he haue fayth sufficient to Saluation And therefore take it not in ill part if we agayne and agayne demand such a Catalogue And that you may see we proceed fairely I will performe on our behalfe what we request of you do heer deliuer a Catalogue wherein are comprized all points by vs taught to be necessary to Saluation in these wordes We are obliged vnder payne of damnation to belieue whatsoeuer the Catholique visible Church of Christ proposeth as renealed by Almighty God If any be of another mind all Catholiques denounce him to be no Catholique But inough of this And I go forward with the Infallibility of the Church in all points 20. For euen out of your owne doctrine that the Church cannot erre in points necessary to saluation any wise man will infer that it behooues all who haue care of their soules not to forsake her in any one point 1. Because they are assured that although her doctrine proued not to be true in some point yet euen according to D. Potter the error cannot be fundamentall nor destructiue of fayth and saluation neither can they be accused of any least imprudence in erring if it were possible with the vniuersall Church Secondly since she is vnder paine
of eternall damnation to be belieued and obeyed in some things wherin confessedly she is endewed with infallibility I cannot in wisdome suspect her credit in matters of lesse moment For who would trust another in matters of highest consequence and be afraid to rely on him in things of lesse moment Thirdly since as I said we are vndoubtedly obliged not to forsake her in the chiefest or fundamentall points and that there is no Rule to know precisely what and how many those fundamentall points be I cannot without hazard of my soule leaue her in any one point lest perhaps that point or points wherin I forsake her proue indeed to be fundamentall and necessary to saluation Fourthly that visible Church which can not erre in points fundamentall doth without distinction propound all her Definitions concerning matters of faith to be belieued vnder Anathema's or Curses esteeming all those who resist to be deseruedly cast out of her Communion and holding it as a point necessary to saluation that we belieue she cannot erre wherin if she speake true then to deny any one point in particuler which she defineth or to affirme in generall that she may erre puts a man into state of damnation Wheras to belieue her in such points as are not necessary to saluation can not endanger saluation as likewise to remaine in her Communion can bring no great harme because she cannot maintaine any damnable error or practise but to be deuided frō her she being Christs Catholique Church is most certainely damnable Fifthly the true Church being in lawfull and certaine possession of Superiority and Power to command require Obedience from all Christians in some things I cannot without grieuous sinne withdraw my obedience in any one vnles I euidently know that the thing commanded comes not within the compasse of those things to which her Power extendeth And who can better informe me how far God's Church can proceed then God's Church herselfe Or to what Doctor can the Children and Schoollers with greater reason and more security fly for direction then to the Mother and appointed Teacher of all Christians In following her I shall sooner be excused then in cleauing to any particuler Sect or Person teaching or applying Scriptures against her doctrine or interpretation Sixtly the fearefull examples of innumerable persons who forsaking the Church vpon pretence of her errours haue failed euen in fundamentall points and suffered ship wracke of their Saluation ought to deter all Christians from opposing her in any one doctrine or practise as to omit other both ancient and moderne heresies we see that diuers chiefe Protestants pretending to reforme the corruptions of the Church are come to affirme that for many Ages she erred to death and wholy perished which D. Potter cannot deny to be a fundamentall Errour against that Article of our Creed I belieue the Catholike Church as he affirmeth it of the Donatists because they confined the vniuersall Church within Afirica or some other small tract of soile Least therefore I may fall into some fundamentall errour it is most safe for me to belieue al the Decrees of that Church which cānot erre fundamentally especially if we add That according to the Doctrine of Catholique Deuines one errour in fayth whether it be for the matter if selfe great or small destroyes fayth as is hewed in Charity Mistaken and cōsequently to accuse the Church of any one Errour is to affirme that the lost all fayth and erred damnably which very saying is damnable because at leaues Christ no visible Church on earth 21. To all these arguments I add this demōstration D. Potter teacheth that there neyther was (c) pag. 75. nor can be any iust cause to depart frō the Church of Christ no more then from Christ himselfe But if the Church of Christ can erre in some points of fayth men not only may but must forsake her in those vnles D. Potter will haue them to belieue one thing and professe another and if such errours and corruptions should fall out to be about the Churches Liturgy publique Seruice administration of Sacraments the like they who perceiue such errours must of necessity leaue her externall Cōmunion And therefore if once we grant the Church may erre it followeth that men may and ought to forsake her which is against D. Potters owne wordes or else they are inexcusable who left the Communion of the Roman Church vnder pretence of Errors which they grant not to be fundamentall And if D. Potter thinke good to answere this argument he must remember his owne doctrine to be that euen the Catholique Church may erre in points not fundamentall 22. An other argument for the vniuersall infallibility of the Church I take out of D. Potters owne words If sayth he we (d) pag. 97. did not dissent in some opinions from the present Roman Church we could not agree with the Church truly Catholique These words cannot be true vnlesse he presuppose that the Church truly Catholique cannot erre in points not fundamentall For if she may erre in such points the Roman Church which he affirmeth to erre only in points not fundamentall may agree with the Church truly Catholique if she likewise may erre in points not fundamentall Therfore either he must acknowledge a plaine contradiction in his owne words or else must grant that the Church truly Catholique cannot erre in points not fundamentall which is what we intended to proue 23. If Words cannot perswade you that in all Controuersies you must rely vpon the infallibility of the Church at least yield your assent to Deeds Hither to I haue produced Arguments drawne as it were ex naturâ rei from the Wisdome and Goodnes of God who cannot faile to haue left some infallible meanes to determine Controuersies which as we haue proued can be no other except a Visible Church infallible in all her Definitions But because both Catholiques and Protestants receiue holy Scripture we may thence also proue the infallibility of the Church in all matters which concerne Faith and Religion Our Sauiour speaketh cleerely The gates of Hell (e) Matt. 16. shall not preuaile against her And I will aske my (f) Ioan. 14. Father and he will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of truth And But when he the Spirit of (g) Ioan. 16. truth cometh he shall teach you all truth The Apostle sayth that the Church is the Pillar and ground (h) 1. Tim. cap. 3. of Truth And He gaue some Apostles and some Prophets and other some Euangelists and other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the Ministery vnto the edifying of the body of Christ vntill we meete all into the vnity of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God into a perfect man into the measure of the age of the fulnes of Christ that now we be not Children wauering and carried about with euery wind of dectrine
in the wiekednes of men in craftines to the circumuention (i) Ephes 4. of Errour All which wordes seeme cleerely inough to proue that the Church is vniuersally infallible without which Vnity of faith could not be conserued agaynst euery wind of Doctrine And yet Doctor Potter (k) pag. 151.153 limits these promises priuiledges to fundamentall points in which he grants the Church cannot erre I vrge the wordes of Scripture which are vniuersall and doe not mention any such restraint I alleadge that most reasonable and receaued Rule that Scripture is to be vnderstood literally as it soundeth vnlesse some manifest absurdity force vs to the contrary But all will not serue to accord our different interpretations In the meane tyme diuers of Doctor Potters Brethren steppe in and reiect his limitation as ouer large and som what tasting of Papistry And therfore they restraine the mentioned Texts either to the Infallibility which the Apostles and other sacred Writers had in penning of Scripture or else to the inuisible Church of the Elect and to them not absolutely but with a double restriction that they shall not fall damnably finally and other men haue as much right as these to interpose their opinion interpretation Behold we are three at debate about the selfe same words of Scripture We confer diuers places and Text We consult the Originals We examine Translations We endeauour to pray hartily We professe to speake sincerely To seeke nothing but truth and saluation of our owne soules that of our Neighbours and finally we vse all those meanes which by Protestants themselues are prescribed for finding out the true meaning of Scripture Neuertheles we neither do or haue any possible meanes to agree as long as we are left to our selues and when we should chance to be agreed the doubt would still remaine whether the thing it selfe be a fundamentall point or no And yet it were great impiety to imagine that God the Louer of soules hath left no certaine infallible meanes to decide both this and all other differences arising about the interpretation of Scripture or vpon any other occasion Our remedy therfore in these contentions must be to consult and heare God's Visible Church with submissiue acknowledgment of her Power and Infallibility in whatsoeuer she proposeth as a reuealed truth according to that diuine aduice of S. Augustine in these words If at length (l) De vtil pred oap 8. thou seeme to be sufficiently tossed and hast a desire to put an end to thy paines follow the way of the Catholique Discipline which from Christ himselfe by the Apostles hath come downe euen to vs and from vs shall descend to all posterity And though I conceiue that the distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamentall hath now beene sufficiently confuted yet that no shadow of difficulty may remaine I will particulerly refell a common saying of Protestants that it is sufficient for saluation to belieue the Apostles Creed which they hold to be a Summary of all fundamentall points of Fayth CHAP. IIII. To say that the Creed containes all points necessarily to be belieued is neyther pertinent to the Question in hand nor in it selfe true ISAY neyther pertinent nor true Not pertinent Because our Question is not what points are necessary to be explicitely belieued but what points may be lawfully disbelieued or reiected after sufficient Propositiō that they are diuine Truths You say the Creed cōtaynes all points necessary to be belieued Be it so But doth it likewise containe all points not to be disbelieued Certainly it doth nor For how many truths are there in holy Scripture not contayned in the Creed which we are not obliged distinctly and particulerly to know belieue but are bound vnder paine of damnation not to reiect as soone as we come to know that they are found in holy Scripture And we hauing already shewed that whatsoeuer is proposed by Gods Church as a point of fayth is infallibly a truth reuealed by God it followeth that whosoeuer denyeth any such point opposeth Gods sacred testimony whether that point be contayned in the Creed or no. In vaine then was your care imploied to proue that al points of fayth necessary to be explicitely belieued are contained in the Creed Neyther was that the Catalogue which Charity Mistaken demanded His demand was and it was most reasonable that you would once giue vs a list of all fundamentals the denyall whereof destroyes Saluation whereas the denyall of other points not fundamentall may stand with saluation although both these kinds of points be equally proposed as reuealed by God For if they be not equally proposed the difference will arise from diuersity of the Proposall and not of the Matter fundamentull or not fundamentall This Catalogue only can shew how farre Protestants may disagree without breach of Vnity in fayth and vpon this many other matters depend according to the ground of Protestants But you will neuer aduenture to publish such a Catalogue I say more You cannot assigne any one point so great or fundamentall that the denyall thereof will make a man an Heretique if it be not sufficiently propounded as a diuine Truth Nor can you assigne any one point so small that it can without heresy be reiected if once it be sufficiently represented as reuealed by God 2. Nay this your instance in the Creed is not only impertinent but directly agaynst you For all points in the Creed are not of their own nature fundamentall as I shewed (a) Chap. 3. n. 3. before And yet it is damnable to deny any one point contayned in the Creed So that it is cleere that to make an errour damnable it is not necessary that the matter be of it selfe fundamentall 3. Moreouer you cannot ground any certainty vpon the Creed it selfe vnlesse first you presuppose that the authority of the Church is vniuersally infallible and consequently that it is damnable to oppose her declarations whether they concerne matters great or small cōtayned or not contained in the Creed This is cleere Because we must receaue the Creed it selfe vpon the credit of the Church without which we could not know that there was any such thing as that which we call the Apostles Creed and yet the arguments whereby you endeauour to proue that the Creed contaynes all fundamentall points are grounded vpon supposition that the Creed was made eyther by the Apostles themselues or by the (b) pag. 216 Church of their tymes from them which thing we could not certainly know if the succeeding and still continued Church may erre in her Traditions neyther can we be assured whether all fundamentall Articles which you say were out of the Scriptures summed and contracted into the Apostles Creed were faythfully summed and cōtracted and not one pretermitted altered or mistaken vnlesse we vndoubtedly know that the Apostles composed the Creed and that they intended to contract all fundamentall points of faith into it or at least that
backe nothing with your glosse needfull for our saluatiō is no proofe vnlesse you still beg the question and doe suppose that whatsoeuer the Apostles reuealed to the Church is contayned in the Creed And I wonder you do not reflect that those words were by S. Paul particularly directed to Pastors and Gouernours of the Church as is cleere by the other wordes He called the Ancients of the Church And afterward Take heed to your selues and to the whole flocke wherin the holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops to rule the Church And your selfe say that more knowledge is (e) pag. 244 necessary in Bishops and Priests to whom is committed the gouernment of the Church and the care of soules then in vulgar Laickes Do you thinke that the Apostles taught Christians nothing but their Creed Said they nothing of the Sacraments Cōmandments Duties of Hope Charity c 25. Vpon the same affected ambiguity is grounded your other obiection To say the whole fayth of those times (f) pag. 222.223 is not contained in the Apoles Creed is all one as if a man should say this is not the Apostles Creed but a part of it For the fayth of the Apostles is not all one with that which we commōly call their Creed Did not I pray you S. Mathew and S. Iohn belieue their writings to be Canonicall Scripture and yet their writinges are not mentioned in the Creed It is therfore more then cleere that the Fayth of the Apostles is of a larger extent then the Apostles Creed 26. To your demaund why amongst many things of equall necessity to be belieued the Apostles should (g) pag. 225. so distinctly set downe some and be altogether silent of others I answere That you must answere your owne demaund For in the Creed there be diuers points in their nature not fundamentall or necessary to be explicitely and distinctly belieued as aboue we shewed why are these points which are not fundamentall expressed rather then other of the same quality Why our Sauiours descent to Hell Buriall expressed and not his Circumcision his manifestation to the three Kings working of Miracles c Why did they not expresse Scriptures Sacraments and all fundamentall points of Fayth tending to practise as well as those which rest in beliefe Their intention was particularly to deliuer such Articles as were fittest for those times concerning the Deity Trinity and Messias as heretofore I haue declared leauing many things to be taught by the Catholique Church which in the Creed we all professe to belieue Neither doth it follow as you infer That as well nay better they might haue giuen no Article but that of the Church and sent vs to the Church for all the rest For in setting downe others besides that and not all they make vs belieue we haue all when (h) pag. 223. we haue not all For by this kind of arguing what may not be deduced One might quite contrary to your inference say If the Apostles Creed containe all points necessary to saluation what need we any Church to teach vs and consequently what need of the Article concerning the Church What need we the Creeds of Nice Constantinople c. Superfluous are your Catechisms wherin beside the Articles of the Creed you add diuers other particulars These would be poore consequences and so is yours But shall I tell you newes For so you are pleased to esteeme it We grant your inference thus far That our Sauiour Christ referred vs to his Church by her to be taught by her alone For she was before the Creed and Scriptures And she to discharge this imposed office of instructing vs hath deliuered vs the Creed but not it alone as if nothing els were to be belieued We haue besides it holy Scripture we haue vnwritten diuine Apostolicall Ecclesiasticall Traditions It were a childish argument The Creed containes not all things which are necessary to be belieued Ergo it is not profitable Or The Church alone is sufficient to teach vs by some conuenient meanes Ergo she must teach vs without all meanes without Creeds without Councels without Scripture c. If the Apostles had expressed no Article but that of the Catholique Church she must haue taught vs the other Articles in particular by Creeds or other meanes as in fact we haue euen the Apostles Creed from the Tradition of the Church If you will belieue you haue all in the Creed when you haue not all it is not the Apostles or the Church that makes you so belieue but it is your owne error wherby you will needs belieue that the Creed must containe all For neither the Apostles nor the Church nor the Creed it selfe tell you any such matter and what necessity is there that one meanes of instruction must inuolue whatsoeuer is contained in all the rest We are not to recite the Creed with anticipated perswasion that it must containe what we imagine it ought for better maintayning some opinions of our owne but we ought to say and belieue that it containes what we find in it of which one Article is to belieue the Catholique Church surely to be taught by her which presupposeth that we need other instruction beside the Creed and in particuler we may learne of her what points be contained in the Creed what otherwise and so we shall not be deceiued by belieuing we haue all in the Creed when we haue not all and you may in the same manner say As well nay better the Apostles might haue giuen vs no Articles at all as haue left out Articles tending to practise For in setting down one sort of articles not the other they make vs belieue we haue all whē we haue not all 27 To our argument that Baptisme is not contayned in the Creed D. Potter besides his answere that Sacraments belong rather to practise then fayth which I haue already confuted and which indeed maketh agaynst himselfe and serueth only to shew that the Apostles intended not to comprize all points in the Creed which we are bound to belieue adds that the Creed of (i) pag. 237. Nice expressed Baptisme by name confesse one Baptisme for the remissiō of Sinne Which answere is directly against himselfe and manifestly proues that Baptisme is an Article of fayth and yet is not contained in the Apostles Creed neyther explicitely nor by any necessary consequence from other Articles expressed therein If to make it an Article of fayth be sufficient that it is contayned in in the Nicene Councell he will find that Protestants maintayne many errours against faith as being repugnant to definitions of Generall Councels as in particuler that the very Councell of Nice which sayth M. Whitgift (k) In his defence pag. 330. is of all wise and learned men reuerenced esteemed imbraced next vnto the Scriptures themselues decreed that to those who were chosen to the Ministry vnmarryed it was not lawfull to take any wife afterward is affirmed by Protestants And
3. Christ three bundred and sixteen God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open Assemblies to the hearts of particular godly men c. during the space of one thousand two hundred threescore yeares And that the (g) Ibid. in cap. 11. pag 145. Pope and Clergy haue possessed the outward visible Church of Christians euen one thousand two hundred threescore yeares And that the (h) Ibid. pag. 191. true Church aboad latent and inuisible And Brocard (i) fol. 110. 123. vpon the Reuelations professeth to ioyne in opinion with Napier Fulke affirmeth that in the (k) Answere to a counterfait Cath. pag. 16. tyme of Boniface the third which was the yeare 607. the Church was inuisible and fled into the wilernes there to remaine a long season Luther sayth Primò solus eram At the first (l) In praefat operum suorum I was alone Iacob Hailbronerus one of the Disputants for the Protestant party in the Conference at Ratisbone affirmeth (m) In suo Acacatholico volum a. 15. cap. 9. p. 479. that the true Church was interrupted by Apostasy from the true Fayth Caluin sayth It is absurd in the very (n) Ep. 141. beginning to breake one from another after we haue beene forced to make a separation from the whole world It were ouerlong to alledge the wordes of Ioannes Regius Daniel Chamierus Beza Ochimus Castalio and others to the same purpose The reason which cast them vpon this wicked doctrine was a desperate voluntary necessity because they being resolued not to acknowledg the RomaÌ„ Church to be Christs true Church yet being conuinced by all manner of euidence for that diuers Ages before Luther there was no other Congregation of Christians which could be the Church of Christ there was no remedy but to affirme that vpon earth Christ had no visible Church which they would neuer haue auouched if they had known how to auoyd the foresayd inconuenience as they apprehended it of submitting themselues to the Roman Church 10. Agaynst these exterminating spirits D. Potter and other more moderate Protestants professe that Christ alwayes had and alwayes will haue vpon earth a visible Church othertherwise sayth he our Lords (o) pag. 154 promise of her stable (p) Matt. 16 1â—â— edification should be of no value And in another place hauing affirmed that ProtestaÌ„tes haue not left the Church of Rome but her corruptions and acknowledging her still to be a member of Christs body he seeketh to cleere himselfe and others from Schisme because saith he the property (q) pag. 76. of Schisme is witnesse the Donatists and Luciferians to cut off from the Body of Christ the hope of saluation the Church froÌ„ which it separates And if any Zelotes amongst vs haue proceeded to he auier censures their zeale may be excused but their Charity and wisedome cannot be iustifyed And elswhere he acknowledgeth that the Roman Church hath those maine and (r) Pag. 83. essentiall truths which giue her the name and essence of a Church 11. It being therefore granted by D. Potter and the chiefest and best learned English Protestants that Christs visible Church cannot perish it will be needles for me in this occasion to proue it S. Augustine doubted not to say The Prophets (s) In Psalm 30. Com. 2. spoke more obscurely of Christ then of the Church because as I thinke they did foresee in spirit that men were to make parties agaynst the Church and that they were not to haue so great strife concerning Christ therefore that was more plainely foretold more openly prophecyed about which greater contentions were to rise that it might turne to the condemnation of them who haue seen it and yet gone forth And in another place he sayth How doe we confide (t) epist. 48. to haue receaued manifestly Christ himselfe from holy Scriptures if we haue also manifestly receaued the Church from them And indeed to what CongregatioÌ„ shall a man haue recourse for the affaires of his soule if vpon earth there be no visible Church of Christ Besides to imagine a company of men belieuing one thing in their hart and with their mouth professing the contrary as they must be supposed to doe for if they had professed what they belieued they would haue become visible is to dreame of a damned crew of dissembling Sycophants but not to conceiue a right notioÌ„ of the Church of Christ our Lord. And therefore S. Augustine sayth We cannot be saued vnles labouring also for the (u) S. Aug. de fide Symbolo c. 1. saluation of others we professe with our mouths the same fayth which we beare in our harts And if any man hold it lawfull to dissemble deny matters of fayth we cannot be assured but that they actually dissemble and hide Anabaptisme Arianisme yea Turcisme euen Atheisme or any other false beliefe vnder the outward profession of Caluinisme Doe not Protestants teach that preaching of the word and administration of Sacraments which caÌ„not but make a Church visible are inseparable notes of the true Church And therfore they must eyther grant a visible Church or none at all No wonder then if S. Augustine account this Heresy so grosse that he sayth against those who in his tyme defended the like errour But this Church which (w) In Psal 101. hath beene of all Nations is no more she hath perished so say they that are not in her O impudent speach And afterward This voyce so abominable so detestable so full of presumption and falshood which is susteined with no truth enlightned with no wisdome seasoned with no salt vaine rash heady pernicious the Holy Ghost fore saw c. And Peraduenture some (x) De ouib cap. 1. one may say there are other Sheepe I know not where with which I am not acquainted yet God hath care of them But he is too absurd in humane sense that can imagine such things And these men do not consider that while they deny the perpetuity of a visible Church they destroy their owne present Church according to the argument which S. Augustine vrged against the Donatists in these words (y) De Bapt. cont Donat. If the Church were lost in Cyprians we may say in Gregories time from whence did Donatus Luther appeare From what earth did he spring from what sea is he come From what heauen did he drop And in another place How can they vaunt (z) Lib. 3. cont Parm. to haue any Church if she haue ceased euer since those times And all Deuines by defining Schisme to be a diuision from the true Church suppose that there must be a knowne Church from which it is possible for men depart But enough of this in these few words 12. Let vs now come to the fourth 4. Point and chiefest Point which was to examine whether Luther Caluin Luther and all that follow him are Schismatiques and the rest did not depart from the externall
And therefore eyther Christ had no visible Church vpon Earth or else you must grant that it was the Church of Rome A truth so manifest that those ProtestaÌ„ts who affirme the Roman Church to haue lost the Nature being of a true Church do by ineuitable Consequence grant that for diuers Ages Christ had no visible Church on Earth from which errour because D. Potter disclaymeth he must of necessity maintaine that the Roman Church is free from fundamentall and damnable errour and that she is not cut of from the Body of Christ and the Hope of Saluation And if saith he any Zelots amongst vs haue proceeded (h) Jhid to heauier censures their zeale may be excused but their Charity and wisedome cannot be iustifyed 48. And to touch particulars which perhaps some may obiect No man is ignorant that the Grecians euen the Schismaticall Grecians do in most points agree with Roman Catholiques disagree from the Protestant Reformation They teach Transubstantiation which point D. Potter also (i) Pag. 229. confesseth Inuocation of Saints and Angels veneration of Reliques and Images Auricular Confession enioyned Satisfaction Confirmation with Chrisme Extreme-vnction All the seauen Sacraments Prayer Sacrifice Almes for the dead Monachisme That Priests may not marry after their Ordination In which points that the Grecians agree with the Roman Church appeareth by a Treatise published by the Protestant Deusnes of Wittemberg intituled Acta Theologorum Wittembergensium Icremiae Patriarchae Constantinop de Augustana Confesaone c. Wittembergae anno 1584. by the Protestant (k) De statu Eccles pag. 233. Crispinus by Syr Edwin Sands in the Relation of the State of Religion of the West And I wonder with what colour of truth to say no worse D. Potter could affirme that the Doctrines debated between the Protestats (l) pag. 22â— Rome are only the partiall particular fancies of the Roman Church vnlesse happily the opinion of TransubstaÌ„tiation may be excepted wherin the latter Grecians seene to agree with the Romanists Beside the Protestant Authors already cited Petrus Arcudius a Grecian and a learned Catholique Writer hath published a large Volume the Argument and Title wherof is Of the agreement of the Roman and Greeke Church in the seauen Sacraments As for the Heresy of the Grecians that the Holy Ghost proceeds not from the Sonne I suppose that Protestants disauow them in that errour as we doe 49. D. Potter will not I thinke so much wrong his reputation as to tell vs that the Waldenses Wicctiffe Husse or the like were Protestants because in some things they disagreed from Catholiques For he well knowes that the example of such men is subiect to these manifest exceptions They were not of all Ages nor in all Countries but confined to certaine places and were interrupted in Time against the notion and nature of the word Catholique They had no Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy nor Succession of Bishops Priests and Pastours They differed among themselues and from Protestants also They agreed in diuers things with vs against Protestants They held doctrines manifestly absurd and damnable heresies 50. The Waldenses begun not before the yeare 1218. so far were they from Vniuersality of all Ages For their doctrine first they denied all Iudgments which extended to the drawing of bloud and the Sabbaoth for which cause they were called In-sabbatists Secondly they taught that Lay men and women might consecrate the Sacrament and preach no doubt but by this meanes to make their Maister Waldo a meere lay man capable of such functions Thirdly that Clergy men ought to haue no possessions or proprieties Fourthly that there should be no diuision of Parishes nor Churches for a walled Church they reputed as a barne Fiftly that men ought not to take an oath in any case Sixtly that those persons sinned mortally who accompanied without hope of issue Seauenthly they held all things done aboue the girdle by kissing touching words compression of the breasts c. to be done in Charity and not against Continency Eightly that neither Priest nor ciuill Magistrate being guilty of mortall sinne did enioy their dignity or were to be obeyed Ninthly they condemned Princes and Iudges Tenthly they affirmed singing in the Church to be an hellish clamor Eleauenthly they taught that men might dissemble their Religion and so accordingly they went to Catholique Churches dissembling their Fayth and made Offertories confessions and communions after a dissembling manner Waldo was so vnlearned that sayth (m) Act. Mon. pag. 628. Fox he gaue rewards to certaine learned men to translate the holy Scripture for him and being thus holpen did as the same Fox there reporteth confer the forme of religion in his time to the infallible word of God A godly example for such as must needs haue the Scripture in English to be read by euery simple body with such fruit of godly doctrine as we haue seen in the foresaid grosse heresies of Waldo The followers of Waldo were like their Maister so vnlearned that some of them sayth (n) Ibid. Fox expounded the words Ioan. 1. Suieum non receperunt Swyne did not receiue him And to conclude they agreed in diuers things with Catholiques against Protestants as may be seene in (o) Tract 2. cap. 2. sect subd 3. Brereley 51. Neither can it be pretended that these are slanders forged by Catholiques For besides that the same things are testified by Protestant Writers as Illyrâ—cus Cowper others our Authours cannot be suspected of partiality in disfauour of Protestants vnles you will say perhaps that they were Prophets and some hundred yeares agoe did both foresee that there were to be Protestants in the world and that such Protestants were to be like the Waldenses Besides from whence but from our Histories are Protestants come to know that there were any such men as the Waldenses and that in some points they agreed with the Protestants and disagreed from them in others And vpon what ground can they belieue our Authours for that part wherin the Waldenses were like to Protestants and imagine they lyed in the rest 52. Neither could Wicliffe continue a Church neuer interrupted from the time of the Waldenses after whom he liued more then one hundred and fifty yeares to wit the yeare 1371. He agreed with Catholiques about the worshipping of Reliques and Images and about the Intercession of our blessed Lady the euer Immaculate Mother of God he went so far as to say It seemes to me (p) In serm de Assump Marte impossible that we should be rewarded without the intercession of the Virgin Mary He held seauen Saciaments Purgatory and other points And against both Catholiques and Protestants he maintained sundry damnable doctrines as diuers Protestant Writers relate As first If a Bishop or Priest be in deadly sinne he doth not indeed either giue Orders Consecrate or Baptize Secondly That Ecclesiasticall Ministers ought not to haue any temporall possessions nor propriety in any thing but should
vs. And Our of you shall (d) Act. 203.30 arise men speaking peruerse things And accordingly Vincentius Lyrinensis sayth Who euer (e) Lib. ad uersus haer cap. 34. began heresies who did not first separate himselfe from the Vniuersality Antiquity and Consent of the Catholique Church But it is manifest that when Luther appeared there was no visible Church distinct from the Roman out of which she could depart as it is likewise well knowne that Luther his followers departed out of her Therfore she is no way lyable to this Marke of Heresy but Protestants cannot possibly auoid it To this purpose S. Prosper hath these pithy words A Christian communicating (f) Dimid temp cap. 5. with the vniuersall Church is a Catholique and he who is diuided from her is an Heretique and Antichrist But Luther in his first Reformation could not communicate with the visible Catholique Church of those times because he began his Reformation by opposing the supposed Errors of the then visible Church we must therfore say with S. Prosper that he was an Heretique c. Which likewise is no lesse cleerly proued out of S. Cyprian saying Not we (g) Lib. de Vnit Ecles departed from them but they from vs and since Heresies and Schismes are bred afterwards while they make to themselues diuers Conuenticles they haue forsaken the head and origen of Truth 19 And that we might not remaine doubtfull what separation it is which is the marke of Heresy the ancient Fathers tel vs more in particular that it is from the Church of Rome as it is the Sea of Peter And therfore D. Potter need not to be so hot with vs because we say writ that the Church of Rome in that sense as she is the Mother Church of all others and with which all the rest agree is truly callled the Catholique Church S. Hierome writing to Pope Damasus sayth I am in the Communion (h) Ep. 57. ad Damas of the Chayre of Peter I know that the Church is built vpon that Rocke Whoseuer shall eate the LaÌ„be out of this house he is profane If any shall not be in the Arke of Noe he shall perish in the tyme of the deluge Whosoeuer doth not gather with thee doth scatter that is he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist And els where 's Which doth he (i) Lib. 1. Apolog call his fayth That of the Roman Church Or that which is contained in the Bookes of Origen If he answere the Roman then we are Catholiques who haue translated nothing of the error of Origen And yet further Know thou that the (k) Ibid. lib. 3. Roman fayth commended by the voyce of the Apostle doth not receiue these delusions though an Angell should denounce otherwise then it hath once been preached S. Ambrose recounting how his Brother Satyrus inquiring for a Church wherin to giue thanks for his deliuery from Shipwrack sayth he called vnto him (l) De obitu Satyris fratri the Bishop neither did he esteeme any fauour to be true except that of the true fayth and he asked of him whether he agreed with the Catholique Bishops that is with the Roman Church And hauing vnderstood that he was a Schismatique that is separated from the Roman Church he abstained from communicating with him Where we see the priuiledge of the Roman Church confirmed both by word and deed by doctrine and practise And the same Saint sayth of the Roman Church From thence the Rights (m) lib. 1. ep 4. ad Jmperatores of Venerable Communion do flow to all S. Cyprian sayth They are bold (n) Epist. 55. ad Cornel. to saile to the Chaire of Peter and to the principall Church from whence Priestly Vnity hath sprung Neither do they consider that they are Romans whose Fayth was commended by the preaching of the Apostle to whom falshood cannot haue accesse Where we see this holy Father ioynes together the principall Church and the Chaire of Peter and affirmeth that falshood not only hath not had but cannot haue accesse to that Sea And else where Thou wrotest that I should send (o) Epist 52. a Coppy of the same letters to Cornelius our Collegue that laying aside all solicitude he might now be assured that thou didst Communicate with him that is with the Catholique Church What thinke you M. Doctor of these words Is it so strang a thing to take for one and the same thing to communicate with the Church Pope of Rome and to communicate with the Catholique Church S. Irenaeus sayth Because it were long to number the successions of all Churches (p) Lib. 3. çont haer c. 3. we declaring the Tradition and fayth preached to men and comming to vs by Tradition of the most great most ancient and most knowne Church founded by the two most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul which Tradition it hath from the Apostles comming to vs by succession of Bishops We confound all those who any way either by cuill complacence of themselues or vaine glory or by blindnes or ill Opinion do gather otherwise then they ought For to this Church for a more powerfull Principality it is necessary that all Churches resort that is all faythfull people of what place soeuer in which Roman Church the Tradition which is from the Apostles hath alwayes been conserued from those who are euery where S. Augustin sayth It griâ—â—ues vs (q) In psal cont partâ—â—n Donati to see you so to ly cut off Number the Priest euen from the Sea of Peter and consider in that order of Fathers who succeeded to whome She is the Rook which the proud Gates of Hell do not ouâ—rcome And in another place speaking of Cacilianu he sayth He might contemne the conspiring (r) Ep. 162. multitude of his Enemies because he knew himselfe to be vnited by Communicatory letters both to the Roman Church in which the Principality of the Sea Apostolique did alwayes florish and to other Countreys from whence the Gospell came first into Africa Ancient Tertullian sayth If thou be neere Italy thou hast Rome whose (s) Praeser cap. 36. Authority is neere at hand to vs a happy Church into which the Apostles haue powred all Doctrine together with their bloud S. Basill in a letter to the Bishop of Rome sayth In very deed that which was giuen (t) Epist. ad Pont. Rom. by our Lord to thy Piety is worthy of that most excellent voyce which proclaymed thee Blessed to wit that thou maist discerne betwixt that which is counterfeit and that which is lawfull and pure and without any diminution mayest preach the Fayth of our Ancestors Maximianus Bishop of Constantinople about twelue hundred yeares agoe said All the bounds of the earth who haue sincerely acknowledged our Lord and Catholiques through the whole world professing the true Faith looke vpon the power of the Bishop of Rome as vpon the sunne c. For the Creator of the
receiue any Spirituall Iurisdiction from any Temporall Prince and therfore if Iurisdiction must be deriued from Princes he hath none at all and yet either you must acknowledge that he hath true spirituall Iurisdiction or that your Selues can receiue none from him 21. Moreouer this new Reformation or Reformed Church of Protestants will by them be pretended to be Catholique or Vniuersall and not confined to England alone as the Sect of the Donatists was to Africa and therfore it must comprehend all the Reformed Churches in Germany Holland Scotland France c. In which number they of Germany Holland and France are not gouerned by Bishops nor regard any personall Successiō vnles of such fat-beneficed Bishops as Nicolaus Amsfordius who was consecrated by Luther though Luther himselfe was neuer Bishop as witnesseth (y) In Millenario sexto pag. 187. Dresserus And though Scotland hath of late admitted some Bishops I much doubt whether they hold them to be necessary or of diuine Institution and so their enforced admitting of them doth not so much furnish that kingdome with personall Succession of Bishops as it doth conuince them to want Succession of Doctrine since in this their neglect of Bishops they disagree both from the milder Protestants of England and the true Catholique Church And by this want of a cōtinued personall Succession of Bishops they retaine the note of Schisme Heresy So that the Church of Protestants must either not be vniuersall as being confined to England Or if you will needs comprehend all those Churches which want Succession you must confesse that your Church doth not only communicate with Schismaticall and Hereticall Churches but is also compounded of such Churches your selues cannot auoid the note of Schismatiques or Heretiques if it were but for participating with such hereticall Churches For it is impossible to retaine Communion with the true Catholique Church and yet agree with them who are diuided from her by Schisme or Heresy because that were to affirme that for the selfe same time they could be within and without the Catholique Church as proportionably I discoursed in the next precedent Chapter concerning the Communicating of moderate Protestants with those who maintaine that Heresy of the Latency and Inuisibility of Gods Church where I brought a place of S. Cyprian to this purpose which the Reader may be pleased to reuiew in the Fifth Chapter and 17. Number 22. But besides this defect in the personall Succession of Protestant Bishops there is another of great moment which is that they wāt the right Forme of ordaining Bishops and Priests because the manner which they vse is so much different from that of the Roman Church at least according to the common opinion of Deuines that it cannot be sufficient for the Essence of Ordination as I could demonstrate if this were the proper place of such a Treatise and will not fayle to doe if D. Potter giue me occasion In the meane time the Reader may be pleased to read the Authour (z) See Adamum Tānerum tom 4. disp 7. quaest 2. dub 3. 4. cited heere in the margent then compare the forme of our Ordination with that of Protestants and to remēber that if the forme which they vse eyther in Consecrating Bishops or in Ordayning Priests be at least doubtfull they can neyther haue vndoubted Priests nor Bishops For Priests cannot be ordayned but by true Bishops nor can any be a true Bishop vnles he first be Priest I say their Ordination is at least doubtfull because that sufficeth for my present purpose For Bishops and Priests whose Ordination is notoriously knowne to be but doubtfull are not to be esteemed Bishops or Priests and no man without Sacriledge can receiue Sacraments from them all which they administer vnlawfully And if we except Baptisme with manifest danger of inualidity and with obligation to be at least conditionally repeated so Protestants must remaine doubtfull of Remission of sinnes of their Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy and may not pretend to be a true Church which cannot subsist without vndoubted true Bishops and Priests nor without due administration of Sacraments which according to Protestants is an essentiall note of the true Church And it is a world to obserue the proceeding of English Protestants in this point of their Ordinations For first Ann. 3. Edw. 6. cap. 2. when he was a Child about twelue yeares of age It was enacted that such (a) Dyer fol 234. term Mich. 6. 7. Eliz. forme of making and consecrating of Bishops and Priests as by six Prelates and six other to be appointed by the King should be deuised marke this word deuised and set forth vnder the great Seale should be vsed and none other But after this Act was repealed 1. Mar. Sess 2. in so much as that when afterward An. 6. 7. Reg. Eliz. Bishop Bonner being endicted vpon a certifitate made by D. Horne a Protestant Bishop of Winchester for his refusal of the Oath of Supremacy and he excepting agaynst the endictment because D. Horne was no Bishop all the Iudges resolued that his exceptiō was good if indeed D. Horne was not Bishop and they were all at a stand till An. 8. Eliz. cap. 1. the act of Edw. 6. was renewed and confirmed with a particular prouiso that no man should be impeched or molested by meanes of any certificate by any Bishop or Archbishop made before this last Act. Whereby it is cleere that they made some doubt of their owne ordination and that there is nothing but vncertainty in the whole busines of their Ordination which forsooth must depend vpon six Prelats the great Seale Acts of Parlaments being contrary one to another and the like 23. But though they want Personall Succession yet at least they haue Succession of doctrine as they say pretend to proue because they belieue as the Apostles belieued This is to begg the Question and to take what they may be sure will neuer be graunted For if they want Personall Succession and sleight Ecclesiasticall Tradition how will they perswade any man that they agree with the doctrine of the Apostles We haue heard Tertullian saying I will prescribe (b) Sup. 〈…〉 against all Heretiques that there is no meanes to proue what the Apostles preached but by the same Churches which they founded And S. Irenaeus tels vs that We may (c) L. 3. 〈…〉 behold the Tradition of the Apostles in euery Church if men be desirous to beare the truth and we can number them who were made Bishops by the Apostles in Churches and their Successors euen to vs. And the same Father in another place sayth We ought to obey (d) L. 4. 〈◊〉 43. those Priests who are in the Church who haue Succession from the Apostles and who together with Succession in their Bishoprickes haue receiued the certaine guift of truth S. Augustin sayth I am kept in the Church (e) Contr. epist. Fundam cap. 4. by the Succession of Priests from the
for example the Century Writers doe (g) Cent. 3. cap. 6. col 127. acknowledge that in the tymes of Cyprian and Tertulian Priuate Confession euen of Thoghts was vsed and that it was then commanded and thought necessary The like I say concerning your Ordination which at least is very doubfull consequently all that depends thereon 6. On the other side that the Roman Church is the safer way to Heauen not to repeat what hath been already sayd vpon diuers occasions I will againe put you in mynd that vnles the Roman Church was the true Church there was no visible true Church vpon Earth A thing so manifest that Protestants themselues confesse that more then one thousand yeares the Roman Church possessed the whole world as we haue shewed heertofore out of their own (h) Chap. 5. num 9. words from whence it followes that vnlesse Ours be the true Church you cannot pretend to any perpetuall visible Church of your Owne but Ours doth not depend on yours before which it was And heere I wish you to consider with feare and trembling how all Roman Catholiques not one excepted that is those very men whom you must hold not to erre damnably in their beliefe vnlesse you wil destroy your owne Church and saluation do with vnanimous consent belieue and professe that Protestancy vnrepented destroies Saluation and then tell me as you will answere at the last day whether it be not more safe to liue die in that Church which euen your selues are forced to acknowledge not to be cut off from hope of saluatioÌ„ which are your owne words then to liue in a Church which the sayd confessedly true Church doth firmely belieue and constantly professe not to be capable of saluation And therfore I conclude that by the most strict obligation of Charity towards your owne soule you are bound to place it in safety by returning to that Church from which your Progenitors Schismatically departed least too late you find that saying of the holy Ghost verified in your selues He that loues (i) Eccles â— 27. the danger shall perish therin 7. Against this last argument of the greater security of the Roman Church drawne from your owne confession you bring an Obiection which in the end will be found to make for vs against your selfe It is taken from the words of the Donatists speaking to Catholiques in this manner Your selues confesse (k) pag. 112. our Baptisme Sacraments and Fayth heer you put an Explication of your owne and fay for the most part as if any small error in fayth did not destroy all Faith to be good and auayleable We deny yours to be so and say there is no Church no saluation amongst you Therfore it is safest for all to ioyne with vs. 8. By your leaue our Argument is not as you say for simple people alone but for all them who haue care to saue their soules Neither is it grounded vpon your Charitable Iudgment as you (l) Pag. 81. speake but vpon an ineuitable necessity for you either to grant saluation to our Church or to entaile certaine damnation vpon your owne because yours can haue no being till Luther vnles ours be supposed to haue been the true Church of Christ And since you terme this Argument a Charme take heed you be none of those who according to the Prophet Dauid do not heare the voyce of him (m) Psal v. 6. who charmeth wisely But to come to the purpose Catholiques neuer granted that the Donatists had a true Church or might be saued And therfore you hauing cited out of S. Augustin the words of the Catholiques that the Donatists had true Baptisme when you come to the coÌ„trary words of the Donatists you add No Church No Saluation making the Argument to haue quinque terminos without which Addition you did see it made nothing against vs For as I said the Catholiques neuer yielded that among the Donatists there was a true Church or hope of saluation And your selfe a few leaues after acknowledge that the Donatists maintained an errour which was in the Matter and Nature of it properly hereticall against that Article of the Creed wherin we professe to belieue the holy (n) pag. 125. Catholique Church and consequently you cannot allow saluation to them as you do and must do to vs. And theÌ„rfore the Donatists could not make the like argument against Catholiques as Catholiques make against you who grant vs Saluation which we deny to you But at least you will say this Argument for the Certainty of their Baptisme was like to Ours touching the Security and Certainty of our saluation therfore that Catholiques should haue esteemed the Baptisme of the Donatists more Certaine then their owne and so haue allowed Rebaptization of such as were baptized by Heretiques or sinners as the Donatists esteemed all Catholiques to be I answere no. Because it being a matter of fayth that Baptisme administred by Heretiques obseruing due Matter Forme c. is valide to rebaptize any so baptized had beene both a sacriledge in reitering a Sacrament not reiterable and a profession also of a damnable Heresy and therfore had not been more safe but certainly damnable But you confesse that in the doctrine or practise of the Roman Church there is no beliefe or profession of any damnable errour which if there were euen your Church should certainly be no Church To belieue therfore and professe as we do cannot exclude Saluation as Rebaptization must haue done But if the Donatists could haue affirmed with truth that in the opinion both of Catholiques and themselues their Baptisme was good yea and good in such sort as that vnles theirs was good that of the Catholiques could not be such but theâ—â—s might be good though that of the Catholiques were not and further that it was no damnable error to belieue that Baptisme administred by the Catholiques was not good nor that it was any Sacriledge to reiterate the same Baptisme of Catholiques If I say they could haue truly affirmed these things they had said somewhat which at least had seemed to the purpose But these things they could not say with any colour of truth and therfore their argument was fond and impious But we with truth say to Protestants You cannot but confesse that our doctrine containes no damnable error and that our Church is so certainely a true Church that vnlesse ours be true you cannot pretend any Yea you grant that you should be guilty of Schisme if you did cut off our Church from the Body of Christ and the hope of saluation But we neither do nor can grant that yours is a true Church or that within it there is hope of saluation Therfore it is safest for you to ioyne with vs. And now against whom hath your Obiection greatest force 9. But I wonder not a little and so I thinke will euery body else what the reason may be that you do not so much as goe about to answere the
he comes to the words by you cited and teacheth that holy Scripture hath warned vs what words and manner of speach or phrase we ought to vse in speaking of the Person of the Blessed Trinity which Schoole Deuines cal Proprietates Personarum Yet that your Corruption might not be void of art or rather a double fraud in your Margent you put in Greeke S. Epiphanius his words that so to such as vnderstood not Greeke nor perceiue your mistranssation your fraud might passe for honest dealing and deceiue your Reader and to others you might answere if need were that in your Margent S. Epiphanius was rightly alleaged 9. These words of Charity Mistaken I must needs obserue that m he that is S. Augustin recounts diuers Heresies which are held by the Protestant Church at this day and particularly that of denying Prayers and Sacrifices for the dead you corruptly compendiate when you say The Mistakeâ— must needs obserue that the Protestants hold diuers ancient Heresies and particularly (n) Pag. 3â— that of denying Prayers for the dead Where you omit the words Saint Augustine recounts diuers Heresies and in particular that c. to make men belieue that it was but a bare affirmation of Charity Mistaken and not collected out of S. Augustine As likewise you conceale Sacrifices lest the world might belieue S. Augustine was a Papist who neuertheles both in this Treatise de haeresibus ad Quod-vult-Deum haer 35. cited by Charity Mistaken and elsewhere teacheth that the dead are holpen by the holy (o) De verâ—â— Apost serm 34. Sacrifice After this you say He is very much (p) Pag. 35. mistaken in his Obseruation The Commemoration of the deceased in the ancient Church which AeÌ„rius without reason disallowed was a thing much differing from those Prayers for the dead which are now in vse in the Church of Rome Thus hauing substituted Commemoration of the deceased insteed of Prayers and Sacrifices for the dead you add with your wonted sincerity Our Roman Catholiques belieue at least they say so that some soules of the faithfull after their departure hence are detained in a certaine fire bordering vpon Hell till they be throughly purged and their Prayers for them are that they may be released or eased of those torments But you are still like your selfe You may read in (q) De Purg. lib. 2. cap. 6. Bellarmine that concerning the Question Vbisit Purgatorium Where Purgatory is the Church hath defined nothing And to the other point Whether in Purgatory there be true corporeall sire he answers (r) Ib. c. 11. That it is the common Opinion of Deuines that properly there is true fire of the same nature with our fire Which Doctrine is not indeed a matter of fayth because it is no where defined by the Church yea in the Councell of Florence the Grecians openly profess't that they did not hold there was fire in Purgatory neuertheles in the definition which was made in the last Sess it was defined that there is a Purgatory without making any mention of fire Neuertheles it is a most probable Opinion by reason of the agreement of the Schoole-Deuines which cannot be reiected without rashnes Thus Bellarmine 10. Now for the maine point That Aërius was put in the list of Heretiques for denying Prayers for the Dead which are offered to release or ease them of their paine I proue out of Aërius his owne words Out of S. Epiphanius whom you seeme to alledge in your behalfe Out of the ancient Fathers Greeke and Latine out of Protestants themselues both in regard that they confesse the Doctrine of Purgatory and Prayer for the dead euen as Catholiques belieue them to haue been belieued by the Ancient Fathers and also in regard they directly acknowledge that Aërius was condemned by the Fathers for denying Prayer for the Dead as we belieue and practise it 11. Heare then your Progenitor Aërius testifying with his owne mouth the practise of Catholiques in those ancient dayes How saith he to Catholiques doe you (*) Apud Epiph. haeres 75. after Death name the names of the dead For if the liuing pray c. what will it profit the dead Or if the prayers of them who are heere be for those who are there then let no man be vertuous nor let him doe any good worke but let him get friends by what meanes he will eyther by money or leauing that charge to his friends at his death let them pray for him that he may not SVFFER any thing there and that irremediable sinnes committed by him may not be layd to his charge Is it not cleere inough by these wordes that this Heretique taxeth Prayers offered for the dead to release or lessen their paynes after this life not only for a bare CoÌ„memoration or Thankes-giuing or the like And that any man may yet further consider especially if he continue to be of as Puritanicall a Spirit as he was who most resembles the spirit of this Aërius let vs by the way add these words of his Neyther ought (s) Ibid. there to be any appointed fast for these things are Iudaicall and vnder the yoake of seruitude For there is no law appointed for the iust man but for Murtherers of their Fathers and Mothers and such like But if I be resolued to fast I will choose my selfe any day and I will fast with freedome 12. Let vs now see what S. Epiphanius in the same place sayth for your Commemoration of the deceased As for pronouncing the names of the Dead sayth he what can be more profitable good and admirable Because the liuing belieue that the deceased liue and are not extinct but haue a being and liue with our Lord And that I may vtter a most pious doctrine that there is hope in those who pray for their Brethren as for those who are trauailed to another Countrey These words you recite out of S. Epiphanius but leaue out those words which immediatly follow and are directly against the doctrine which you will proue out of him in that very place For thus he saith But the Praiers which are made for them do profit them although they do not release the whole sin in regard as long as we are in this world we faile and erre both voluntarily and against our will to the end that that also may be mentioned which is more perfect we remember both the lust Sinners For Sinners imploring the mercy of God But for the Iust Fathers Patriarches Prophets Apostles Euangelists Martyres Confessors Bishops and Anchorites c. that we may put a difference betwixt our Lord Iesus Christ and all Orders of men by that honour which we giue to him and that to him we may giue adoration You see that S. Epiphanius speakes of forgiuenes of sinnes that he makes a difference between Prayers offered for deceased Sinners and the Commemoration of Saints who by way of Thankes-giuing are remembred as holy men wheras
deceased cannot stand with your meere Commemoration of Thankesgiuing or your Request for a perfect Consummation both which according to your doctrine concerne Martyrs no lesse then others The same difference is expressed by S. Cyprian saying It is one thing to be purged (f) Lib. 4. ep 2. alias epist. 52. after long torment for ones sinnes and to be long cleansed with the fire and another thing to haue wiped away all the sinnes by suffering S. Hierome sayth If Origen affirme that (g) Lib. 1. cont Pelagianos all Creatures endued with reason are not to be lost and granteth repentance to the Diuell what belongs that to vs who affirme that the Diuell and all his Officers and all sinneful and wicked men do eternally perish and that Christians if they be taken away in sinne are to be saued after punishments More Fathers may be seen in Bellarmine and other Catholique Writers These may suffice to shew what was that Beliefe Practise of the Church which Aërius opposed in his time as you do at this day 15. Lastly your owne Brethren beare witnes thus against you Caluin sayth More then a thousand three hundred (h) Instit. l. 3. c. 5. Sect. â—â— yeares ago it was a Custome to pray for the dead But I confesse they were all driuen into Error Bucer his words are Because (i) In his enarrat in sacra quatuor Euang. printed Basil 1536. in Matt. â— 12. almost from the beginning of the Church Prayers and Almes-deeds were offered for the dead that opinion which S. Augustine sets downe in his Enchiridio cap. 110. crept in by little little Neither ought we to deny that soules are released by the piety of their liuing friends when the Sacrifice of our Mediatour is offered for them c. Therfore I doubt not but that from hence arose that duty of Praying and offering Sacrifice for them Fulke speaketh plainely Aërius taught that Prayer for the dead (k) In his answer to a counterfeyt Cath. pag. 44. was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustine which they count for an Errour He likewise acknowledgeth that Ambrose Chrysostome Augustine allowed Prayer for the dead That Tertullian Augustine Cyprian Hierome and a great many more do witnes that Prayer for the dead is the Tradition of the Apostles And that Fulke vnderstands these Fathers in the sense of satisfying for Temporall paines after this life I hope you will not deny For it is cleere by what we said out of him aboue Nay euen in the Communion Booke allowed and established by Act of Parlament in the second yeare of Edward the Sixth and printed in LoÌ„don by Edward Whitchurch Anno â—549 there is Prayer for the dead and in the yeare 1547. the first yeare of Edward the Sixth his raigne Stow recounts that on the 19. of Iune a Dirige was sung in euery parish Church in London for the French King late deceased and a Dirige was also sung in the Church of S. Paul in the same Citty on the next morrow the Archbishop of Canterbury assisted of eight Bishops all in rich miters other their Pontificalls did sing a Masse of Requiem And to say this by the way there is in the same Communion Booke offering vp of our Prayers by Angels as likewise in the first yeare of that Kings raigne Communion in One Kind in time of Necessity is approued as also in the Collection in English of Statutes c. the reason heerof is added because at that time the opinion of the Reall presence as the Collector sayth was not remoued from vs. Which ingenuous confession supposes that Communion in one kind cannot be disallowed if we belieue the reall presence because indeed the Body and Bloud of our Sauiour Christ is both vnder the species of bread and vnder the species of wine 16. You say the Ancient Church (n) Pag. 37. in her Liturgies remembred all those that slept in hope of the Resurrection of euer lasting lyfe and particularly the Patriarchs Prophets Apostles c. beseeching God to giue vnto them rest and to bring them at the Resurrection as you add to the place where the light of his countenance should shine vpon them for euermore 17. But reade (o) De Purg. lib. 1. cap. 9. Bellarmine and you shall find a farre different thing in the Greeke Liturgy of which S. Epiphanius makes mention whome you also cite in your Margent We offer Sacrifice to thee O Lord for all the Patriarchs Apostles Martyrs and especially for the most Blessed Mother of God And that the Sacrifice was offered for those Saints onely in Thankes-giuing the words following doe shew By whose Prayers O God looke vpon vs. But for other faythfull deceased the speach is altered thus And be mindfull of all the faythfull deceased who haue slept in hope of the Resurrection and grant them to rest where the light of thy Countenance is seene Which last words you vntruly applied to Patriarches c. and added at the Resurrection wheras they are referred only to other faithfull people for whom Sacrifice is offered that they may come to see the light of Gods Countenance euen before the Resurrection that is as soone as they haue satisfied for their sinnes And now how many wayes is the Greeke Liturgy repugnant to you It speakes of Sacrifice which you turne to Remembrance It speakes of some persons whom we intreate to pray for vs others for whom we pray It teacheth Prayers to Saints It teacheth that Saints do already enioy the Beatificall Vision and therfore that Sacrifice only of Thankes-giuing is offered for them And as for the latter Schismaticall and Hereticall Crecians although their Authority weigh not much yet euen they professed in the Councell of Florence that they belieued a Purgatory only denied that the soules were there tormented by fire teaching neuertheles that it was a darke place and full of paine and your owne (q) Vid Apol Prot. tract 1. Sect. 7. subd 12. at 11. Brethren Sparke Osiander and Crispinus affirme that about Prayer for the dead they conformed themselues to Rome And Sr. Edwin (r) In his relation c. Sands saith that the Greeke Church doth concur with Rome in the opinion of Transubstantiation in Praying to Saints in offering Sacrifices and Prayer for the dead Purgatory c. And a Treatise published by the Protestant Diuines of Wittemberge Anno 1584. intituled Acta Theologorum Wittembergensium c. affirmeth that the Greeke Church at this day belieues Inuocation of Saints and Prayer for the dead as heertofore I noted All which considered with what Modesty can you say The generall opinion of (t) Pag. 36. the Ancient Doctors Greeke and Latin downe almost to these last Ages was and is the opinion of the Greeke Church at this day that all the spirits of the Righteous deceased are in Abrahams bosome or in some outward Court of heauen c. And to mend the matter you
expressely condemne as erroneous or in the next degree to Heresy But because it were a vanity to muster a number of Writers in a question impertinent to our present designe which is only against Heresy or Schisme both which exclude inuincible ignorance I hold it best to passe them ouer in silence 30. Your saying that A man may be a true visible membër (t) Pag. 47. of the holy Catholique Church who is not actually otherwise then in vow a member of any true visible Church destroyes it selfe For in the same manner and degree neyther more nor lesse a man is a visible member in act or in desire of the visible Church as he is a mēber of the true Catholique Church which is visible And Bellarmine whome you cite for your selfe is directly agaynst you For he teacheth that a man may (u) de Eccles milit cap. 6. Respondeo be in the Church in desire which is sufficient for Saluation when he is inuoluntarily hindred from being actually of the Church and yet not in the Church by externall Comunion which properly maketh him to be of the visible Church which is directly to deny what you affirmed I might reflect what a pretty connection you make in saying who is not actually otherwise then in vow c. you might as well haue sayd who is not actually otherwise then not in act c. But such small matters as these I willingly dissemble The poore man in the Ghospell was cast out of the Synagogue by notorious iniustice and therefore still remayned a member of the Iewish Church not only in desire but also in act You say Athanasius stood single in defense of diuine Truth all his Brethren the other Patriarchs not he of Rome excepted hauing subscribed to Arianisme and cast him out of their Communion And you referre vs to Baronius cited in your Margent to what purpose I know not except to display your owne bad proceeding For Baronius in the place by you alledged (w) Anno 357. num 44. apud Spond doth not incidently or only by the way but industriously and of set purpose cleere Pope Libertu◠from hauing euer subscribed to Arianisme He subscribed indeed to the condemnation of S. Athanasius which was not for matter of faith but of fact to wit for certayne crimes obiected agaynst him as Bellarmine (x) De Rom. Port lib. 4. cap. 9. affirmeth which being false S. Athanasius did not therefore cease to be a member of the Catholike Church If the errours of Tertullian were in themselues so smal as you would make them it may serue for an example that not so much the matter as the manner and obstinacy is that which makes an Heretique which ouerthrowes your distinction of points fundamentall c. 31. The proofes which you bring from the Africans and others that Communion with the Roman Church was not alwayes held necessary to Saluation haue been a thousand tymes answered by Catholique Writers and they are such as you could not haue chosen any more disaduantagious to your cause Heertofore I shewed that Communion with the Roman Church was by Antiquity iudged to be the marke of a true Belieuer And indeed seing you speake of those times wherin Rome stood in her purity as you say how could any be diuided from her fayth and yet belieue aright Do not your selfe say Whosoeuer professeth himselfe to forsake (y) Pag. 76. the Communion of any one member of the Body of Christ must confesse himselfe consequently to forsake the whole How then could any diuide themselues from the Romane Church while she was in her purity Euen S. Cyprian whose example you alleage fayth They (z) Ad Cornel ep 33. presume to saile to the Roman Church which is the Chaire of Peter and to the principall Chaire from whence Priestly Vnity hath sprung Neither do they consider that they are Romans whose fayth was commended by the preaching of the Apostle to whom falshood cannot haue accesse Optatus Mileuitanus also an African saith At Rome hath been constituted to Peter (a) 〈◊〉 Parm. lib. 2. the Episcopall Chaire that in this only Chaire the Vnity of all might be preserued And S. Augustine like wise an African affirmeth that Cacilianus might despise (b) Epist 62 the conspiring multitude of his enemies that is of seauenty Bishops of Africa assembled in Numidia because he saw himselfe vnited by letters Communicatory with the Roman Church in which the Principality of the Sea Apostolique had alwayes flourished And after Pelagius had been iudged in the East by the Bishops of Palestine and Celestius his Disciple had been excommunicated for the same cause in Asrica by the African Bishops the Mileuitan Councell referred them finally to the Pope saying We hope by the (c) Ep. Conc. Mileu ad Innocent inter epist. Aug. epist 92 mercy of our Lord Iesus-Christ who vouchsafe to gouerne thee consulting with him and to heare thee praying to him that those who hold these Doctrines so peruerse and pernicious will more easily yield to the authority of thy Holynes drawne out of the holy Scriptures Behold the Popes prerogatiue drawne out of the holy Scriptures And it is very strang that you will alleage the Authority of S. Cyprian and other Bishops of Africa against Pope Stephen who opposed himselfe to them in the Question of Rebaptization wherin they agreed with the Heresy of the Donatists which was condemned not only by the Pope but by the whole Church yea by those very Bishops who once adhered to S. Cyprian as S. Hierome witnesseth saying Finally they who had been (d) Coutra Luçifer of the same opinion set forth a new decree saying What shall we do So hath it been deliuered to them by their Ancestors and ours And Vincentius Lyrinensis speaking of Stephen his opposing S. Cyprian sayth Then (e) In Com. part 1. the blessed Stephen resisted together with but yet before his Collegues iudging it as I conceiue to be a thing worthy of him to excell them as much in Fayth as he did in the authority of his place 32. Neither are you more fortunate in the example of Pope Victor then in the other of Stephen For although Eusebius whom S. Hierome (f) Contra Ruff. Apol. 1. stiles the Ensigne-bearer of the Arian Sect and who was a profest Enemy of the Roman Church doth relate that S. Irenaeus (g) Hist. Eccles lib. 5. c. 24. reprehended Victor for hauing excommunicated the Churches of Asia for the question about keeping Easter yet euen he dare not say that Irenaeus blamed the Pope for want of Power but for misapplying it which supposeth a Power to do it if the cause had been sufficient And the successe shewed that euen in the vse of his Power Pope Victor was in the right For after his death the Councels of Nice Constantinople and Ephesus which you receiue as lawfull Generall Councels excommunicated those who held the same Custome with the Prouinces which
to the people other things then the Articles of the Apostles Creed the Ten Commaundments and some of the Sacraments because these are simply necessary and profitable for all men the rest besides such as a man may be saued without them Heere you stop leauing out the words immediately following which are directly against you So that sayth Bellarmine he haue (h) Ibid. a will ready to imbrace and belieue them whensoeuer they shall be sufficiently propounded to him by the Church Besides you falsifie Bellarmine when you make him say that the Apostles neuer vsed to preach to the people other things then the Articles of the Apostles Creed the commandments and some of the Sacraments because these are simply necessary and profitable for all men But he sayth directly the contrary namely that the Apostles preached to all some things which were not necessary but only profitable to all and therfore not superfluous as you say whereas yet he expressely affirmes the knowledge of the Creed commandments and some sacraments to be necessary to all I wonder what pleasure you can take in corrupting Authors to your owne discredit Now since we must haue as Bellarmine rightly teacheth a will ready to imbrace whatsoeuer is propounded by the Church it followeth that notwithstanding your Confidence to the contrary we cannot but except against your publique Seruice or Liturgy I haue neither will nor leisure to examine particulars but Exceptions inough offer themselues to any mans first Consideration The very occasion and end for which it was framed proceeded out of an Hereticall spirit to oppose the true Visible Church It was turned into English vpon an hereticall perswasion and a popular insinuation and a crafty affectation to inueigle the humor of the people that publique Prayers were vnlawfull in an vnknowne tongue It leaueth out Prayers both for deceased sinners and to glorious Saints blotting diuers of them out of their Calendar and hath abrogated their festiuall dayes and the like they haue done concerning fasts except those few which they vouchsafe to like It abolisheth all memory of S. Peters Successour It treateth only of two Sacraments excluding the rest and in the one it omitteth most of our Ceremonies as superstitious in the other it professeth not to giue any thing but the substance of Bread and wine It administreth to Lay people both kinds as necessary by the institution of Christ our Lord Masse or Sacrifice it hath none It reades and belieues Scripture heretically translated It mentioneth no Reliques of Saints And in a word it is both in the whole Body and designe and in euery point a profession of a Church and fayth contrary to Catholiques and implies a condemnation of our Liturgy as superstitious your selfe boldly say We cannot we (i) Pag. 68. dare not communicate with Rome in her publique Liturgy which is manifestly polluted with grosse superstitions and therefore wee Catholiques also can no more approue your practise and Liturgy then we can imbrace your Doctrine and fayth I said that I had no desire to examine the particulars of your Liturgy neither is it needfull For we may iudge of the rest by the very first words or Introite of your Seruice beginning with a Text for which you cite Ezech. 18. At what time soeuer a sinner doth repent him of his sinnes from the bottome of his heart I will put all his wickednes out of my remembrance sayth the Lord. But there is no such sentence in Ezechiel whose words are these euen in the Bible of the Protestants But if the wicked will turne from all his sinnes which he hath committed and keep all my statutes and do that which is lawfull and right he shall surely liue he shall not die All his Transgressions which he hath committed they shall not be mentioned vnto him in the righteousnes which he hath done he shall liue Your first Reformers the soule of whose Church was solifidian Iustification were loth to heare of possibility to keep all the Commandments of working Righteousnes or liuing in the Righteousnes which he hath wrought as also they were vnwilling to particularize with the Prophet what is required to true Repentance knowing full well the different opinions of their first Progenitors about this point of Repentance and therfore they thought best to corrupt this Text. And which is more strange in your seruice-Booke translated into Latin and printed in London Per assignationem Francisci Florae the sentence is cited at large as it is in the Prophet and therfore the corruption still remayning in the English to deceiue the Vnlearned is more inexcusable Neither in the same Introite is the allegation of Ioel. 2. much more truly made Rent your hearts not your garments and turne to the Lord your God c. Out of which place you know men are wont to declaime against our corporall Penance of Fasting Watching Hayre-cloth Disciplines c. but euen according to your owne Translation the words are Turne you euen to me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and with mourning And rent your hearts and not your garments c. where I belieue you will confesse that your omission was not vsed to no purpose 8. You speake among other things of Images we grant that God may be worshipped without an Image But we say that he cannot be truly worshipped by any one who denieth worship of Images because true worship of God cannot stand with any one Heresy It is highly good lawfull and a most holy thing to pray to God but yet if one should belieue that we may not also pray to liuing men your selfe would I thinke condemne him for an Heretique because all Christians intreate their Brethren to pray for them By which example all your instances pag. 72. may be answered Your saying out of Bellarminine that the worship and Inuocation of Saints was brought into the Church rather by custom then any Precept is answered heerafter n. 12. And I would gladly know by what authority your Church can inioyne secret Cōfession in some case as heere pag. 72. you say she doth if Christ haue left it free Can a humane law oblige men to reueale their secret sinnes in Confession especially since they know not whether your Ministers will not thinke themselues obliged to acquaint some Officer therewith in case the Penitent disclose any crime punishable by the Lawes of the Realme To which propose I could tell you strange and true stories as contrarily because Catholikes belieue the Sacrament of Confession to haue been instituted by our Sauiour Christ as necessary to Saluation they consequently teach that the Seale and Secret thereof is so sacred and inuiolable that the Pope himselfe cannot dispense therein though it were to saue his owne life And now to follow your wandrings you may know that we doe not hinder but giue free leaue to vnlearned persons to say their prayers in a known language but the Church doth celebrate publique Seruice
as about the Canon of Scripture c. as also between Protestants and Puritans c. And I could put you in mind of your Brethren who teach that for diuers Ages the visible Church perished and yet S. Augustine teacheth that there is nothing more euident in Scripture then the Vniuersality of the Church as also who deny that Bishops are by diuine Institution who oppose your whole Hierarchy as Antichristian who differ from you in the forme of Ordination of Ministers all which are fundamental points But I will refer the Reader to the most exact Brereley who (z) Tract 3. Sect. 7. vnder ◠reckons no fewer then seauenty seauen differences amōg you punctually citing the Bookes and pages where you may find them And yet for the present I will set downe some words of Doctor Willet testifying your differences From this fountaine sayth he haue sprung (a) In his meditation vpō the 122. Psa pag. 91. forth these and such like whirle-points and bubbles of new doctrine as for example that the Scriptures are not meanes concerning God of all that profitably we know That they are not alone complete to euerlasting felicity That the word of God cannot possibly assure vs what is the word of God That there are works of Supererogation That the Church of Rome as it now standeth is the family of Christ That Idolaters and wicked Heretiques are members of the visible Church let D. Potter heere remember what himselfe sayth of the Roman Church and what he relateth about the opinion of M. Hooker and M. Morton that among Heretiques there may be a true Church That there is in Ordination giuen a indeleble Character That they haue power to make Christs body That Sacraments are necessary in their place and no lesse required then beliefe it selfe That the soules of Infants dying without Baptisme are damned c. Do you thinke that the necessity of Baptisme and other Sacraments the sufficiency of sole Scripture which your English Clergy professeth at their Ordination and those other points are but small matters But besides these and many more there are two other maine generall transcendent differences among you The one whether you do not differ in maine points which though you deny yet others affirme The other what be maine or fundamentall points Vpon which two differences i◠will necessarily follow that you cannot know whether you haue the same substance of fayth and hope of saluation or no. But though your differences were all reduced to one and that how small soeuer that one were sufficient to exclude Vnity of faith among you as I haue often said and proued I haue no mind to spend time in telling you how vn-scholler-like you say Two brothers (b) Pag. 87. in their choller may renounce ech other and disclaime their amity yet that heat cannot dissolue their inward and essentiall relation For when a mans Brother dyes doth he loose any essentiall relation I alwayes thought that essentiall relations were inseparable from the essence to which they belong and the essence from them and a man who still remaynes a man may yet cease to be a Brother It is therfore no essentiall relation 24. I grant that Differences in Ceremonies or discipline do not alwayes infer diuersity of fayth yet when one part condemnes the Rites and discipline of the other as Antichristian or repugnant to Gods word as it hapneth among Protestants then differences in Ceremontes redound to a diuersity in fayth 25. Luther tempered by (c) Pag. 93. mild Melancthon that honour of Germany did much relent and remit of his rigour agaynst Zwinglius and began to approue the good Counsels of peace If inconstancy concerning matters of Fayth be Mildnes Melancton was I grant extremely mild in which respect he was noted euen by Protestāts was disliked by Luther How much Luther relented of his rigour agaynst Zwinglius let himselfe declare in these words which you could not but read in Charity-Mistaken I hauing now one of my feet (d) Pag. 53. in the graue will carry this testimony and glory to the Tribunall of God That I will with all my heart condemne and eschew Carolostadius Zwinglius Oecolampadius and their disciples nor will I haue familiarity with any of them eyther by letter writing words nor deeds accordingly as the Lord hath commanded If in Polonia the followers of Luther and Caluin haue long liued together in concord as you would haue vs belieue the thing being really not true they must thanke the good Catholique King vnder whome they liue who is able and apt to punish when there is great excesse But if they had the raynes in their owne hand what greater concord could be hoped for amongst them in that Kingdome then is found in other places where they haue more power In Polonia there are many Arians and Trinitarians who liue in outward concord with the rest But will you acknowledge them for Brethren to Lutherans Caluinists and your selfe The answere will be hardly made if you sticke to your owne grounds and I may well passe on to the rest CHAP. IIII. YOVR very beginning promiseth small sincerity in that which followes For you make Charity-Mistaken say that Protestants be Heretiques at the lest if not Infidels wheras he only sayth substantially proueth that whosoeuer doth disbelieue any one Article of fayth doth not assent to all the rest by diuine infallible fayth but by an humane perswasion which is a point of great consideration and of which it seemes you are very loath to speake 2. You take much paines to proue what we do not deny For it maketh nothing to the purpose whether or no the Proposition of the Church belong to the formall Obiect of fayth as heertofore I haue told you Nor do we deny Scripture to containe all mattes of fayth if it be rightly vnderstood because Scripture among other Verities doth also recommend vnto vs the Church diuine Traditions though they be vnwritten And you egregiously falsify (a) Pag. 99. Edit 1. Bellarmine as if he excluded the Authority of the Church wheras in the place by you cited de verb. Dei lib. 1. c. 2. he only speakes against the priuate spirit and euen there proues out of S. Augustine that God will haue vs learne of other men We likewise teach that tho Church doth not make any new Articles of fayth but only propounds and declares to vs the old Only I would haue you heere consider that whether or no Scripture be the sole Rule of fayth or whether fayth be resolued into diuine Reuelation alone or els partly into the Proposition of the Church all is one for the maine Question whether persons of diuers Religions can be saued For this remaineth vndoubted that it cannot be but damnable to oppose any truth sufficiently declared to be contained in Scripture or reuealed by God 3. No lesse impertinent is your other discourse concerning the difficulty to know what is Heresy For
we grant that it is not alwayes easy to determine in particuler occasions whether this or that doctrine be such Because it may be doubtfull whether it be against any Scripture or diuine Tradition or Definition of the Church and much more whether the person be an Heretique which requireth certaine conditions as Capacity Pertinacy sufficient Proposition c. which are not alwayes so easily explicated and discerned and for these respects S. Augustine in the place cited (b) Pag. 102. by you had good reason to say That it is hard to know what makes an Heretique But it is strange that you should hold it to be so hard a matter to giue a generall definition of Heresy or Heretique since in this very Section you dispatch it quickly saying He is iustly (c) Pag. 98. esteemed an Heretique who yields not to Scripture sufficiently propounded Or as you say else where It is fundamentall (d) Pag. 250. to a Christians Fayth and necessary for his saluation that he belieue all reuealed Truths of God wherof he may be conuinced that they are from God Nay if you will speake with coherence to your owne grounds it is easy for you to define in all particular cases what is damnable Heresy for you I say who measure all Heresy by opposition to Scripture and further affirme that Scripture is cleere in all fundamentall points For by this meanes it will be easy for you to discerne what error opposeth those fundamental Truths which are cleerly contained in Scripture 4. In your discourse concerning the Controuersy between Pope Stephen and S. Cyprian you shew a great deale of passion against the Roman Church which you impugne out of an Epistle of Firmilianus who at that time was a party against the Pope and who in particuler did afterward recant togeather with the other Bishops who once ioyned with S. Cyprian as we haue already shewed out of S. Hierome may be also seen in an Epistle of Dionysius Alexandrinus apud Eusch hist. l. 6. c. 7. wherin Firmilianus in particular is named therfore you are inexcusable who say they persisted in their opinion wheras the proceeding of S. Stephen was necessary to preuent a pernicious error of rebaptizing of such as had been baptized by Heretiques which afterward was condemned by the whole Church And as for S. Cyprians mild proceeding which you so much commend out of your ill will to S. Stephen because he was Pope S. Augustine saith The things which (e) De Bapt. cont Donat. lib. 5. cap. 25. Cyprian in anger hath spread against Stephen I will not suffer to passe vnder my pen. Wherfore you could not haue picked out an example more in fauour of Popes then this And you must giue vs leaue not to credit what you say That both Stephen and Cyprian erred in some sense For Stephen only affirmed that Baptisme was not inualide precisely because it is giuen by Heretiques as S. Cyprian affirmed it to be but yet if the Heretiques erred either in the Matter or Forme of Baptisme Stephen neuer affirmed such Baptisme to be valid which had been more then he granted euen to the Baptisme of Catholiques 5. Your Argument to proue that (f) Pag. 112. concerning our greater safety we dispute against you as the Donatists did against Catholiques I haue answered (g) Cap. 7. num 7. in the First Part. You would make men belieue that we are like the Donatists who washed Church wall and vestments of Catholiques broke their Chalices scraped their Altars c. But I pray you consider whether Chalices Vestments Palls or Corporals and Altars do expresse the Protestant Church of England Scotland Geneua Holland c. or the Church of Rome 6. You spend diuers pages in propounding Arguments for the opinion of M. Hooker and M. Morton That whersoeuer a company of men (h) Pag. 113. doe iointly professe the substance of Christian Religion which is fayth in Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and Sauiour of the world with submission to his doctrine in mynd and will there is a Church wherein Saluation may be had notwithstanding any corruption in ludgment or practise yea although it be of that nature that it seeme to fight with the very foundation and so haynous as that in respect thereof the people stayned with this corruption are worthy to be abhorred of all men and vnworthy to be called the Church of God But because these and such monstruous Assertions proceed from other errours which I haue already both cleerly and at large confuted to wit the Fallibility of the Church the Distinction of points fundamental and not fundamentall c. I referre you to those places and heere onely obserue into what precipices they fall who deny the vniuersall Infallibility of the Church And it is strange that you your selfe did not see the manifest contradictions inuolued in this wicked doctrine For how can it be a Church wherein Saluation may be had and yet be vnworthy to be called the Church of God How can that man haue fayth in Iesus Christ with submission to his doctrine in mind and will who is supposed to ioyne with his beliefe in Iesus Christ other errors sufficiently propounded to be repugnant against Gods word or Reuelation Can submission in mind or will or obseruation of his Commandments stand with actuall voluntary error against his word Is it not a prime Commandment to belieue Gods word Do not your selfe affirme that it is Infidelity to deny whatsoeuer is reuealed in Scripture How then can a Church be said to haue meanes for saluation and life wherin is wanting Fayth the first ground of saluation The Fathers sometimes called the Donatists Brethren by reason of their true Baptisme not for their possibility to be saued according as S. Augustine said to them The Sacraments of Christ (i) Epist 48. do not make thee an Heretique but thy wicked disagreement And Optatus sayth You cannot (k) Lib. 4◠but be our brethren whom the same Mother the Church hath begotten in the same bowels of Sacraments whom God our Father hath in the same manner receiued as adopted Children namely on his behalfe and for as much as concernes the vertue of Baptisme The Conclusion of your discourse may well beseeme the doctrine for which you bring it A learned man (l) Pag. 122. anciently was made a Bishop of the Catholique Church although he did professedly doubt of the last Resurrection of our bodies You might haue added that he would not belieue that the world should euer haue an end and further absolutely refused to be baptized And that he would not as the History recoūteth liue a single life as other Priests but that he would liue with a wife For Synesius who is the man you meane publiquely protested all these things and you are wise inough to take only what might seeme to serue your turne as this concerning the single liues of Priests did not because it sheweth that in those
the same points the Scripture is also sufficient and cleere Which cuidently sheweth that you cannot deny but that the Infallibility of the Church may well stand with the sufficiency of Scripture consequently to oppose either the Scripture or Church is sufficient to make one an Heretique and this is sufficient for our purpose Yea since you cannot deny but that it is Heresy to oppose the Scripture and that you also grant that the Scripture affirmes the Church to be infallible in fundamentall points it followes that euen according to you euery one who opposeth the Church in such points is an Heretique euen because he opposeth the Church although the further reason heerof be because he opposeth the Scripture which recommends the Church So that all which you haue said about the sufficiency of Scripture alone is in diuers respects nothing to the purpose 5. You affirme that (d) Pag. 136 Eckius Pighius Hosius Turrianus Costerus do euery where in their writings speake wickedly and contumeliously of the holy Scriptures And because this is a common slander of Protestants against Catholique Writers I do heere challenge you to produce but one I say but one only place either out of any one of these whome you name or any other Catholique Doctor who speakes wickedly or contumeliously against holy Scriptures But be sure you do not confound speaking against Scripture it selfe with speaking against the abuse therof or against the letter of Scripture wrested to some hereticall sense against which our Authors speake and cannot speake too much And S. Hierome with other Father do the same 6. You proceed and say The Testimony (e) Pag. 139. of the present Church workes very powerfully probably first vpon Infidels to winne them to a Reuerend opinion of Fayth and Scriptures c. Secondly vpon Nouices weaklings and doubters in the fayth to instruct confirme them till they may acquaint themselues with and vnderstand the. Scriptures which the Church deliuers as the word of God Thirdly vpon all within the Church to prepare induce and perswade the Mind as an outward meanes to imbrace the fayth to read and belieue the Scriptures But the fayth of a Christian findes not in all this any sure ground wheron finally to rest or settle it selfe Because diuine Fayth requires a Testimony absolutely diuine and yet our Aduersaries yield that the Testimony of the present Church is not absolutely diuine to which purpose you cite in your Margent some of our Authors and therfore it cannot rely vpon the Church 7. This your discourse is neither pertinent nor true For the Question is not as I haue often told you whether or no our fayth be resolued into the Authority of the Church but whether we may not truly infer that whosoeuer resisteth the Church in those points which she doth infallibly propose as reuealed by God which infallibility you yield to her for all fundamentall points be not an Heretique because at lest by resisting the Church he consequently comes to oppose the Testimony or Reuclation of God which is the formall obiect of Fayth Besides if the Testimony of the Church worke but probably vpon Infidels and Nouices who by you are taught to belieue that she may erre vnles you will circumuent them by dissembling her fallibility they will haue wit inough to tell themselues that since she may erre and speakes but probably she cannot worke so powerfully vpon them but that they may still doubt whether she do not actually erre and deceiue them And how can the Church worke vpon all within her to prepare induce and perswade the mind to imbrace the fayth to read and belieue Scriptures Are they within the Church before they haue imbraced the Fayth Or must they want fayth till they read and belieue the Scriptures Or rather since according to your Principles all fayth depends on Scripture must they not belieue the Scripture before they imbrace the fayth and consequently before they be in the Church How then doth the Church prepare induce and perswade them that are within her to imbrace the fayth and to read and belieue the Scriptures If our fayth must rest and settle only vpon the Written Word of God how doth S. Irenaeus (f) Lib. 3. cap. 4. affirme that many Nations haue been conuerted to Christ without Scriptures Were they conuerted only to an humane fayth 8. And wheras you say that the Authority of the Church is not absolutely diuine and therfore cannot be the last and formall Obiect of fayth it is but an Equiuocation and you infer that which we do not deny Coninck whom you cite in your Margent and translated by halues answeres your Obiection in the very wordes which you alleage Although sayth he the Church (g) Disp 9. dub 5. conel 2. be directed by the infallible assistance of the holy Ghost and in that sense her Testimony do in some sort rely vpon the diuine Authority and receiue from it strength all which words you do not translate yet it is not truly or properly the Testimony or word and reuelation of God but properly it is a humane Testimony You see then that the Testimony of the Church in some sense is Diuine that is infallibly directed by the holy Ghost which is inough for our purpose although it be not Diuine in another sense that is her words are not the immediate voyce of God as Scriptures are because she doth not propose any new Reuelations made immediately to her but only infallibly declares what Reuelations haue beene made to Prophets Apostles c. Your selfe affirme that the Church is infallible in Fundamentall points and consequently her Testimony is not meerly humane and fallible and yet it is not absolutely diuine and so you must answere your owne Argument and you must grant that the Church being infallible in some points may be to vs a ground sufficient for our infallible assent or beliefe for such Articles And if you will tell vs that fayth must be resolued into some Authority which is absolutely Diuine as Diuine signifies that which is distinct from all things created you will find your selfe gone too far For Scripture it selfe being a thing created and not a God is not Deuine in that sense And the Apostles who receiued immediate Reuelations from God when afterwards they did preach and declare them to others those Declarations which supposed the Reuelations already made were not in the opinion of many Deuines the testimony or word of God but of men infallibly assisted by God And yet I hope you will not hence inferre that it had not been Heresy to oppose the Declarations of the Apostles although they did not preach new Reuelations but only declare and propound such as had been already made to them 9. Your wordes which are indeed but words That Scripture (h) Pag. 141. is of diuine Authority the Belieuer sees by that glorious beam of diuine light which shines in Scripture I confuted heeretofore And what greater
but in some sort the word of God that is vttered by the assistance and direction of the holy Ghost nay I say that the Heretiques are those who indeed leane on a rotten staffe And then he comes to the words which you cited For we must know that a Proposition of Fayth is concluded in this Syllogisme Whatsoeuer God hath reuealed in Scripture is true God hath reuealed this in Scripture ergo it is true Of the premisses in this Syllogisme the first is most certaine among all the second is most firme or certaine among Catholiques for it relies on the Testimony of the Church Councell or Pope heere you breake off but Bellarmine ads of which we haue in holy Scripture manifest promises that they cannot erre Act. 15. It hath seemed to the Holy Ghost to vs And Luke 22. I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth may not faile But amongst Heretiques it doth rely only vpon coniectures or the Iudgement of ones own spirit which for the most part seemeth good and is ill and since the Conclusion followes the weaker part it necessarily followes that the whole fayth of Heretiques is but coniecturall and vncertayne Thus farre Bellarmine And now wherein I pray you consists his contradicting both himselfe and his fellowes Perhaps you meane because heere he teacheth that euery Proposition of fayth must be reuealed in Scripture and therefore contradicts his other doctrine that besids Scripture there are vnwritten Traditions But the vanity of this obiection will by and by appeare among your other corruptions which now I set down First you see Bellarmines speakes not of fayth in generall but only of matters of fayth contayned in Scripture his whole question being about the Interpretation thereof that is Whether we are to rely on the priuate spirit or humane industry of conferring places c. or els vpon the Church And therefore Secondly he sayth not as you cite him in a different letter by way of an vniuersal negation that a Proposition is not de fide or not belonging to fayth vnles it be concluded in this Syllogisme Whatsoeuer God hath reuealed in the Scripture is true but this or that God hath reuealed in Scripture c. from whence it would follow that nothing at all could be belieued which is not contained in Scripture but he onely sayth that a Proposition of fayth is cōcluded in this Syllogisme which includes no vniuersall negation but is meant onely of those Propositions of fayth which depend on the interpretation of Scripture which was the subiect of his discourse And therefore I wonder why you should say in generall this reason supposes that matters of fayth must be reuealed in Scripture For to teach that some matters of faith are in Scripture doth not suppose that all matters of fayth must be contayned in Scripture and yet all the contradiction that heere you find in Bellarmine must be this Such Propositions of fayth as are contayned in Scripture are concluded in this Syllogisme Whatsoeuer God hath reuealed in the Scripture c. Ergo all Propositions of fayth must be concluded in this Syllogisme Ergo there are no vnwritten Traditions A goodly contradiction Thirdly where did Bellarmine euer teach that the Proposall of the Church can make any vnwritten Verity to become matter of fayth as you speake The Church doth not make Verities to be matter of fayth but only declares them to be such Fourthly you leaue out the words which cleerly explicate in what sense the Testimony of the Church may be sayd to be humane or diuine by which your Argument to proue that the declaration of the Church cannot be a sufficient ground of fayth had been answered and your fallacy discouered Fifihly Bellarmine neuer affirmed as you say he did that the strength and truth of the Minor in the sayd Syllogisme depends on the Testimony of the Church but only that it is most certaine among Catholiques by the Testimony of the Church because as I haue often said the Church cannot make any one Article to be true but only by her declaration can make it certaine to all Catholiques as Bellarmine said Sixtly you leaue out Bellarmines words wherby he proues the infallibility of Church and Pope out of Scripture and accordingly in the Scauenth place that which he expresly sayth of the vncertaine coniecturall ground of Heretiques which can produce only a coniecturall and vncertaine Fayth because the Conclusion followes the weaker part you make him apply to the Testimony of the Church as if it were vncertaine which contrarily in the words by you omitted he proues to be most certaine infallible and therfore the Conclusion which relies vpon a Proposition deliuered by her is not subiect to error Eighthly you returne to the slaunder that if Bellarmines doctrine be true there is no truth in the Scriptures or in our Religion without the attestation of the Church as if Bellarmine had taught that the truth of Scripture and of all Christian Religion depends on the attestation of the Church which could not in you proceed from ignorance but from a purpose to deceiue your Reader For Bellarmine in that very place which you cite declares himselfe so fully and cleerly that you cannot be excused from wilfull slaunder I will put downe the place at large that heerafter you and your Brethren may either cease to make the same Obiection or els endeauour to confute the Cardinalls answere Bellarmine then makes this obiection against himselfe If the Pope iudge of Scriptures it followes that the Pope or Councell is aboue the Scripture and if the meaning of Scripture without the Pope or Councell be not authenticall it followes that the word of God takes his force and strength from the word of men And then he giues this Answere I answere that this Argument of which Heretiques make greatest account consists in a meere Equiuocation For it may be vnderstood two manner of wayes that the Church doth iudge of Scriptures the one That she should iudge whether that which the Scripture teaches be true or false The other That putting for a most certaine ground that the words of Scripture are most true she should iudge what is the true interpretation of them Now if the Church did iudge according to the former way she should indeed be aboue the Scripture but this we do not say though we be calumniated by the Heretiques as if we did who euery where cry out that we put the Scripture vnder the Popes Feet But that the Church or Pope doth iudge of Scriptures in the latter sense which we affirme is not to say that the Church is aboue Scripture but aboue the sudgment of priuate persons For the Church doth not iudge of the Truth of Scripture but of the vnderstanding of thee and mee and others Neither doth the word of God receiue strength therby but only my vnderstanding receiues it For the Scripture is not more true or certaine because it is so expounded by the Church but my Opinion
question or practised by the Church is the Obiect of her infallibility which is the thing we intend to proue against Protestants that to oppose or question any one doctrine or practise of the Church is to resist an infallible Authority and consequently to be an Heretique And that Stapleton neuer dreamed of your imaginary restraining the infallibility of the Church to points fundamentall is cleere by another place which you (m) Pag. 40 cite as out of S. Thomas and him in this manner Some are primitiue Articles of the substance of Religion essentiall in the obiect of fayth Others are secundary probable accidentall or obscure points For Stapleton in that place sayth that certaine doctrines (n) Staplet Rel. controu 1. q. 3. art 6. are either primary Principles of fayth or els though not primary yet defined by the Church and so as if they were primary Others are Conclusions deduced from those principles but yet not defined Of the first kind are the Articles of fayth and whatsoeuer is defined in Councels against Heretiques c. Of the second are questions which either belong to the hidden works of God or to certaine most obscure places of Scripture which are beside the fayth and of which we may be ignorant without losse of fayth yet they may be modestly and fruitfully disputed of And afterward he teaches that whatsoeuer the Church doth vniuersally hold either in doctrine or manners belongs to the foundation of fayth and proues it out of S. Augustine (o) Serm. 14. de verbis Domini ep 28.89.96 who cals the Custome of the Church Ecclesiae morem fundatissimuÌ„ sidem fundatissimam consuâ—â—udinem Ecclesiae fundatissimaÌ„ authoritatem sta bilissimaÌ„ fundatissimae ecclesiae Could any thing be more cleere to shew that according to Stapleton the infallibility of the Church reacheth further then to those points which you call fundamentall and that it belongs to the very foundation of Fayth that we belieue whatsoeuer the Church holds And that it is not lawfull for any to dispute against such determinatioÌ„s of the Church Which doth ouerthrow your distinction of points fundamentall not fundamentall thogh you alledge the authority of S. Thomas and Stapleton in fauour thereof For S. Thomas (o) 2.2 q. 2. are 5. in the very place by you cited after he had sayd that there are some obiects of fayth which we are bound explicitely to belieue addeth that we are bound to belieue all other points when they are sufficiently propounded to vs as belonging to fayth You might gayne more reputation to your selfe and allow your aduersary more ease if you would once resolue to cite your Authours with more sincerity 18. To proue that the infallibility of the Church extends only to fundamentall points you also alledge Maldonatus who sayth That he will not repugne (p) In Joan. 24.26 if one will affirme that those words 10.14 vers 16. He shall teach you all things be referred to those other words Whatsoeuer I haue spoken to you as if our Sauiour did say that the holy Ghost was to teach theÌ„ nothing but that which he himselfe had taught them But do you in good earnest belieue that our Sauiour taught the Aposlles fundamentall points alone which all Christians are bound explicitely to belieue Or will you say the Apostles were infallibly assisted only when they deliuered fundamentall points of fayth So you must say if Christ did teach them only points fundamentall and the holy Ghost taught them onely those thinges which Christ had taught them vnles you will say they were infallible without the assistaÌ„ce of the holy Ghost You see he had good reason to say that (q) First Part. cap. 2. num 13. by denying the vniuersal infallibility of the Church limiting the promises of Christ made to her you opened a gap for men to say that the A postles in their Preaching and Writing were not vniuersally infallible And heer I aske whether it be not a fundamentall errour against fayth and Saluation to deny the truth of any one point sufficiently propounded as reuealed by God and since without question it is so you must eyther grant that the Church can erre fundamentally and damnably agaynst fayth which yet your self deny or els you must yield that her infallibility reaches to all points sufficiently propounded as diuine Truths whether they be in themselues fundamentall or not fundamentall which is as much as we desire 19. Agaynst the infallibility of the Church you bring a long argument pag. 157.158 the force whereof is this Nothing according to vs can be belieued by diuine fayth which hath not beene defined by the Church But the Church hath not defined that she is infallible in all her decrees Therfore we cannot belieue by diuine fayth that she is infallible in all her decrees 20. Before I answere your Argument I must reflect that you do not sincerely alledge these words out of Bellarmine Vntil (r) Lïb. 4. de Roman Pont. cap. 14 §. Respondeo inprimis a doctrine be declared or defined by the Church so loÌ„g it might be eyther doubted of or denyed without danger For Bellarmine makes no such generall Rule but only speaking of the opinioÌ„ of Pope Iohn the two and twentith That the Saints doe not see God before the Resurrection which is your owne errour he excuseth him from Heresy because at that tyme the Church had not defined the matter Where you see Bellarmine speakes only of a particular point which that Pope not conceauing to be contayned in Scripture and the thing hauing not been expressely defined by the Church nor euidently knowne to haue beene the vniuersall sense thereof it was not at that tyme a matter of fayth And he himselfe before his death retracted his errour But to come to your Argument I wish you would be carfull not to obiect against vs what your selfe must answer For doe not you teach that the Church workes vpon all (s) Pag. 139. within her to prepare induce and persuade the mind to imbrace the fayth to reade and belieue the Scriptures And that the ordinary meanes (t) Pag. 142.143 appointed by God to present and propound diuine Verities is the Church And therefore we cannot in the ordinary course belieue Scriptures or any other diuine Verity but by the Proposall of the Church But this doctrine that the Church is the first Inducer to imbrace the faith and the ordinary Meanes without which we cannot belieue is not proposed by the Church and therefore it is not a thing which we can belieue You likewise grant that the Church is infallible in all fundamentall points And I aske in what decree definition or declaration hath the Church proposed to vs that her selfe cannot erre in fundamentall points especially with your addition that she may erre in points not fundamentall Now to your Argument I an were First That it is not necessary that the Church should by any particular decree testify her owne
the one is by you cited deliuer his opinion in the person of his Disciple to be directly for the infallible authority of Councels So as heer is a double corruption the one the citing words for his opinion which are not so the other the concealing those which are his and directly to the contrary Clemangis his workes are forbidden That worke of Cusanus which you (c) Concord Cathol cite he afterward retracted Panormitanus in the place (d) In cap. Significasti extra de Electione cited by you may seeme to speake of Councells disagreeing from the Pope and though he say that if the Councell erred it did not follow that the whole Church should erre because the faith might remaine in others yet that doth not conuince that he held a Generall Councell together with the Pope might erre For Canus hath the very same Obiection and Answere and yet as we shall see anon he holds it to be a matter of faith that General Councels confirmed by the Pope cannot erre Neuertheles if Panormitanus did hold that Generall Councells with the Pope might erre he can only be excused because he did not affirme it with pertinacity Petrus de Aliaco hath indeed (e) Quaest in Vesper art 3. the words which you cite but they are not spoken by him as his opinion but as the opinion of some others so he hath also the cleane contrary proposition viz. that a generall Councell cannot erre nor euen the Remane Church which you might as well haue alledged for his opinion as the other but the truth is that neither are alledged by him as his owne doctrine but as the opinion of others as I said which he expreslly sayth that he doth forbeare to discusse for the present contenting himselfe onely with these three Conclusions which expresse his owne opinion First that alwayes there is some Church which is ruled by the law of Christ which according to his former explication is as much as to say that there is alwayes some Church which cannot erre The second that it is not conuinced out of Scripture that any particular Church is in such manner conformed to the rule of Christs law The third is that it is conuinced out of Scripture that alwayes there is some vniuersall Church which neuer swarues from the rule of Christ Neither will it aduantage you that he teacheth that any particular Church may erre For as I haue often told you the Roman Church in the sense which I haue heertofore declared is all one with the Vniuersall Church and so his doctrine that the Vniuersall Church cannot erre directly proues that the Romane cannot erre And when he teacheth that the Vniuersall Church cannot erre he doth not distinguish betwixt points fundamentall and not fundamentall as you do You cite out of Canus these words I confesse (f) Canus loc lib. 5. c. 5. §. At contrà that euery Cenerall Councell doth represent the whole Church But when you vrge that the Church cannot erre it is true in that sense in which faithfull people vnderstand it which is that the whole Church together that is all faythfull people do not erre But this doth not hinder but that the greater part of the Church may erre I should scarcely haue belieued it to be possible for any man aliue who pretends to haue credit common fame to peruert the sense of this Author as you do vnles I did see with mine owne eyes both what you write and indeed what Canus affirmes For in the Chapter next precedent (g) Cap. 4. §. Tertia CoÌ„â—lusio to that which you cite he hauing affirmed that a Generall Councell confirmed by the Pope makes a thing certayne and belonging to fayth in respect of vs áddeth that this Conclusion is so certayne that the coÌ„trary is hereticall which he proues by diuers good conuincing reasons and among the rest that if such a Councell could erre there were no way certaine to decide Controuersies of fayth And in the place which you cite afterward he impugnes their opinion who affirme that a Generall CouÌ„cell is infallible before it be confirmed by the Pope which they endeauoured to proue because the CouÌ„cel represents the whole Church and therfore can erre no more then the vniuersall Church it selfe To which Argument he answeres in the words which I set downe and which you alledge to proue that Canus held a Generall Councell might erre namely But when you vrge that the Church caÌ„not erre it is true in that sense in which faythfull people vnderstand it which is that the whole Church together that is all faythfull people do not erre and therefore it is euident that you bring them directly agaynst his words and meaning bring the Obiection for his answere And besides what we haue already related out of him within fiue lines after the words cited by you he sayth The Councell would be infallible if it were confirmed by the Pope I leaue it to your owne consideration what iudgement euen you would frame of any other beside your selfe if he should cite Authours in this manner 22. You haue no reason to be so much offended that we equall diuine vnwritten Traditions with the written word of God For we haue so reuerend an opinion of Gods word as that whersoeuer we find it our fayth belieues it to be most infallible nor can we belieue that pen inke and paper can add any certainty to the Truth thereof Without cause also you accuse the Romane Church of supine negligence because she hath not as yet giuen a Catalogue of vnwritten Traditions as well as of all the Bookes of Scripture For you might also condemne the Ancient Church which did not for diuers ages deliuer any Catalogue of Canonicall Bookes which yet afterward she did as occasion required And as the Councell of Trent by reason of your heresies whereby you denyed diuers Canonicall Bookes of Scripture set downe a perfect Canon of Scripture so as iust necessary occasioÌ„ may require the holy Ghost by which she is directed will not fayle to assist her in making a Catalogue of vnwritten Traditions I cannot find but that your moderne Brethren will gladly admit of some Apostolicall Traditions agaynst the Puritans and why then doe you not make a Catalogue of them as you haue done of the Bookes of Scripture Your famous Archbishop of Canterbury sayth For so much as the Originall (i) M. Witgift in his his defence c. pag. 351 beginning of these names Metropolitan Archbishop c. such is their Antiquity cannot be found so farre as I haue read it is to he supposed they haue their Originall from the Apostles themselues for as I remember S. Augustine hath this Rule in his 118. Epistle And in proofe of this Rule of S. Augustine he adds It is of credit (k) Vbi sugra pag. 352. with the Writers of our tyme namely with M. Zwinglius M. Caluin M. Gualter and surely I thinke no
belieue infallible vnwritten Traditions And wheras you say Bellarmine is resolute that the Article of the descēt is euery where in Scripture and in Latin Scripturae passim hoc docent Bellarmines wordes are All men agree that Christ descended into Hell aliquo modo in some māner or sense because Scripture euery where teaches so much Why did you leaue out aliquo modo which words might well haue shewed that there was no contrariety betweene Bellarmine Stapleton S. Thomas doth not purposely dispute whether all Articles of the Creed be contayned in Scripture but onely vpon an other occasion teaches that the Creed is not an Addition to Scripture out of which it is taken that the truths belieued by fayth are contained in Scripture diuers wayes and in some obscurely which doth in no wise exclude the Authority of the Church to declare the meaning of the Creed For if some be contayned in Scripture but obscurely who shall declare them to vs but the Church 13. As for the sense of that (f) pag. 240. Article some hold that Christ descended really into Hell Others virtually and by effect This virtuall descent is taught by one only namely Durand and therfore your Others is but an exaggeration and euen he doth not deny Lymbus Patrum or that the Fathers were there nor that Christ descended thither in some sort but only differeth frō others whether he descended secundum substantiam which doctrine or rather doubt of his for he leaueth the thing doubtfull is reiected by all other Deuines as erroneous 14. By Hell some (g) pag. 240. vnderstand the lowest pit or the place of the damned as Bellarmine at first others the Lymbus Patrum as Bellarmine at last Would not one conceiue by your words that in the opinion of Bellarmine Christ descended only into the place of the dāmned And yet your conscience cannot but tell you that Bellarmine neuer doubted but that Christ descended into Lymbus Patrum and only proposed it as doubtfull whether or no he descended into the Hell of the damned and resolued probabile est It is probable that the soule of Christ descended to all the infernall places or Hells But afterward in his Recognitions he retracted his opinions for as much as concerned the place of the damned whereby it is cleere that he neuer doubted of our Sauiours descent to Lymbus and that you affirming the contrary doe without doubt desire to deceiue your Reader 15. You say that it is the most important (h) pag. 242. and most fundamentall of all Articles in the Church to belieue that Iesus Christ the Sonne of God the Son of Mary is the only Sauiour of the world wherin you giue a deadly blow to D. Morton who teaches that the Arians denying our Sauiour to be God do notwithstanding make a true Church and if the opinion of M. Hooker for which you bring diuers Arguments be true you cannot exclude the Arians or Trinitarians from being members of a true Church 16. To cleere the cōfusednes of your Church in her 39. Articles you lay the fault vpon vs. But by your leaue if you read either Catholique Deuines or the Councell of Trent you will find that they speake most cleerly and distinctly But Charity Mistaken doth truly say that you are very carefull not to be too cleerly vnderstood and therefore in many Controuersies whereof that Booke of the 39. Articles speakes it comes not at all to the maine question between them and vs c. Which affirmation of his is most true both in the points by him specified in diuers others as for example The third of our Sauiours descent into Hell The 26. of the Nature and effect of Sacraments The 27. will haue the Baptisme of Children to be retained but doth not specify whether or no it be necessary The 28. about the Lords Supper is so generall and of so large a size that it may reach to Zuinglians Caluinists Lutherans who yet in this Article are known to be as farre asunder from ech other as East from West I omit other Articles and only vrge that which Charity Mistaken presseth and you wholy dissemble that Those Articles do not so much as say that the Articles of doctrine which they deliuer are fundamentall either all or halfe or any one therof or that they are necessarily to be belieued by them or the contrary damnable if it be belieued by vs. Is this to keep your promise not to omit without answere any thing of moment in all his discourse Certainly this which Charity Mistaken doth vrge heere is according to your principles the very quintessence of all other points I will not stand to examine how truly you affirme that our Wil is essentially free from all necessity Such motions of our Will as preuent the deliberation of reason are they not necessary The Will in good Philosophy cannot suffer coaction but it may be necessitated without changing the essence therof 17. To the demaund of Charity Mistaken Why do they not particularly enumerate all the Bookes which they acknowledge to be of the New Testament as they had done them of the Old but only because they must so haue named those Bookes of S. Iames and others for Canonicall which the Lutherans haue cast out of their Canon You answere that the Lutherans do now admit the Epistle of S. Iames and the rest as Canonicall which you proue by D. Gerhard a Lutherā But if this be so you do not answere his Question what the reason is why your Church doth not particularly enumerate all the Bookes which they acknowledge to be of the New Testament as she had done them of the old Besides what Authority had D. Gerhard to speak for all the Lutherans of which there be diuers sorts condemning one another If once you deny the infallibility of the Church what infallible ground hath D. Gerhard this day to admit of those Bookes which yesterday other Lutherans reiected In the Bibles of Luther to this day the Epistle to the Hebrewes the Epistle of S. Iames and S. Iude and the Apocalyps of S. Iohn are excluded from the Canon 18. Now that none of those Bookes which we hold for Canonicall be Apochryphall as you teach Bellarmine (m) De verbo Dei l. 1. per multa çapita proues at large and answers all your obiections And if any heertofore doubted of some of them the Authority of the Visible Catholique Church of Christ ought to preponderate all doubts of particular persons And it is strange that you cite S. Augustine against the Machabees who in that very place which you cite sayth The Scripture (n) Cont. ep Gaudent lib. 2. ç. 23. of the Machabees is receiued by the Church not vnprofitably if it be read and heard soberly which latter words are vnderstood only against desperate inferences of the Donatists who vpon the example of Razias in the History of the Machabees did kill and precipitate themselues as
is cleere by his other ensuing words in the same place We ought not then to approue by our consent all things which we reade in the Scriptures to haue been done by men euen adorned with praises by the testimony of God himselfe but to mingle our consideration with discretion bringing discretion with vs not grounded vpon our owne Authority but vpon the Authority of the holy and diuine Scriptures which permit not vs to praise or imitate all the actions euen of those of whom the Scripture giues good and glorious Testimony if they haue done any thing that hath not been well done or that agreeth not with the consent of the present time In which words we see S. Augustine calls the Bookes of the Machabees Scriptures euen as afterward he cals Canonicall Bookes in generall Diuine and holy Scriptures and that the Sobriety of Circumspection which he aduiseth to be obserued in reading them is not how far they be true or false but whether the example of Razias recounted by them is to be imitated more or lesse What you alledge out of S. Gregory (o) Moral lib. 19. ç. 17. is easily answered For he doth not call the Machabees not Canonicall as if he would exclude them from the number of true and diuine Scriptures but because they were not in the Canon of the Iewes or in that which he had at hand when he wrote his first draught of his Commentaries vpon Iob For he was at that time the Popes Nuncius or Legate at Constantinople and the Greeke Rapsody of African Canons had vntruly put out of the Canon the two Bookes of the Machabees though they were receiued in Africa as Canonicall by the decree of the African Councell And therfore you were ill aduised vnder colour of commending Pope Gregory but indeed the more to impugne vs by his authority to write Greg M. or Magnus the Great wheras he was not Pope but only Deacon when he first wrote those Commentaries vpon Iob. 19. You cite S. Hierome praefat in lib. Salom. The Church reades the Bookes of Iudith Tobias and the Machabees but she doth not receiue them among Canonicall writings But S. Hieromes words are these As the Church reades Tobias Iudith and the Machabees but receiues them not among the Canonicall Bookes so may she read Wisedome and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people but not for the confirmation of Ecclesiasticall doctrines Thus S. Hierome And you had reason to cite his words by halues For he afterward retracted what he said of the Bookes of Iudith and Tobias with which the Machabees are yet ioyned in the words cited by you saying in his Preface vpon the History of Iudith The Booke of Iudith is read by the Hebrewes among the Hagiographs whose authority is esteemed lesse sufficient to decide Controuersies but for as much as the Councell of Nice hath reckoned it among the holy Scriptures I haue obeyed your request Where you see that S. Hierome affirmes that the most ancient and graue Councell of Nice receiued the Booke of Iudith in that sense in which the Iewes did not receiue it consequently as a Booke esteemed sufficient to decide Controuersies which the Iewes denied And in another place the same Father sayth Ruth Hester and Iudith haue beene (q) Ep. 140. so glorious as they haue giuen their names into the sacred Volumes Where you see that S. Hierome placeth Iudith with Ruth and Hester the former wherof you admit for Canonicall and part of the latter In his Preface vpon the Booke of Tobias he sayth The Hebrewes (r) Ep. 100. cut off the Booke of Tobias from the Catalogue of the diuine Scriptures And againe The iealousy of the Iewes doth accuse vs that against their Canon we translate the Booke of Tobias into Latin but I iudge it better to displease the iudgment of the Pharisees and to obey the Commandment of the Bishops And elsewhere he placeth (t) In Jsa c. 23. the Machabees among Canonicall Bookes saying The Scripture reports that Alexander king of the Macedonians came out of the land of Cethim And wonder not if S. Hierome spake not alwayes in the same manner of the Canon of the Old Testament since vpon experience examination and knowledge of the sense of the Church he might alter his Opinion as once he said of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that it (u) Ad Panlinum was put out of the number by the greatest part of men and yet elsewhere he receiues it (w) Ep. ad Dardanum as the Epistle of S. Paul And if you will haue a generall explication of S. Hierome concerning his reiecting of Bookes not admitted by the Hebrewes heare it in his owne words Wheras I haue reported (x) Ad◠Russ Apolog 2. what the Hebrewes vsed to obiect against the History of Susanna and the Hymne of the three Children and the Story of the Dragon Bell which are in the Hebrew I haue not declared what I thought but what the Iewes were wont to say against vs. And he cals Ruffinus a foolish Sycophant for charging him with the opinion of the Hebrewes about these parts of Daniel And S. Hierome explayning himselfe in this manner is acknowledged by (y) Answer to Burges pag. 87. Couell and (z) Conference before his Maiesty Bankeroft How then will you excuse your Church which in her sixt Article sayth in generall of all the Bookes which you esteeme Apochryphall among which are the History of Susanna the Hymne of the three Children and that of the Dragon The other Bookes as Hierome sayth the Church doth reade for example of life and instruction of manners but yet it doth not apply them to establish any doctrine How can she I say be excused since S. Hierome euen according to the Confession of your owne Brethren doth explaine himselfe that he vttered only what the Iewes were wont to say against vs and cals Ruffinus a foolish Sycophant for saying the contrary So as insteed of S. Hierome and the Church of God you put on the person of Ruffinus against S. Hierome and of the Synagogue against the Church of Christ our Lord so your whole Canon of the old Testament relies vpon the Authority of the Iewes And finally D. Potter while he grants that Catholiques and Protestants disagree about the very Canon of Scripture forgets to answere what Charity-Mistaken pag. 43. 46. doth thence inferre to wit that they cannot be accounted of one and the same Religion Fayth and Church 20. The Chymericall Church of your (b) Pag. 234. Maister D. Vsher consisting of men agreeing only in fundamentall points is indeed a Chymera or non Ens. For it is impossible that there can be a visible Church which professing fundamentall points doth not in other points eyther agree with vs or you or els disagrees from vs both For eyther they must hold for example the Reall Presence Transubstantiati Prayer for the dead and to Saints Worship of Images Supremacy
the naked couer him despise not thy flesh Then shall thy LIGHT breake forth as the Morning and thy Health shall soone arise and thy Iustice shall goe before thy face and the Glory of our Lord shall imbrace thee Then shalt thou call our Lord will heare Thou shalt cry and he will say Lo heere I am And so he will not fayle to shew thee Where he is Namely in his owne Catholique visible Church Fasting likewise giues strength and wings to our Prayer for Prayer is good (e) Tob. 12. ◠with fasting But nothing is more necessary then that they roote out of their soules preiudice of Opinion Feare Hope Auarice Interest humane Respects and such eyther corruptions of nature or temptatiōs of our Enemy to which men will the more easily be led to yield by the desire which they haue naturally to leade a life in liberty and not to aduenture the losse of such conueniences delights as they are wont to like so well as also not to incurre those disaduantages and afflictions to which a contrary course might make thē subiect Some of these thinges are excellently pointed at by S. Augustine when he writes against the Donatist Heretiques of his tyme which euery man ought seriously to consider how farre they may perhaps concerne himselfe How many sayth he being (f) Epist. 48◠conuinced by euidence of truth did desire to be Catholiques but did deferre it from day to day for feare of offending their friends or kinsfolkes How many were tyed not by truth wherein they neuer much confided but by the heauy chayne of obdurate custome How many did belieue the faction of Donatus to be the true Church because too much assurednes made them drowzy disdainefull and sleuthfull To how many did the reports of ill Tongues shut vp the way to enter who sayd that we put I know not what vpon the Altar How many thinking that it was no matter on what side one were a Christian did therfore remaine among the Donatists because there they were borne And afterward We were frighted to enter by reason of false reports which we should not haue knowne to be false vnles we had entred into the Catholique Church as daily we heare from the mouth of Protestants conuerted to Catholique Religion Others say We did indeed belieue that it imported nothing in what Company we did hold the fayth of Christ. But thankes be to our Lord who hath gathered vs from diuision and hath shewed to vs that it agreeth to one God that he be worshipped in Vnity FINIS Faults escaped in the Print GOod Reader whereas through the absence of the Author of this Worke and by reason of an vncorrected written Coppy sent vnto the presse many errours mistakings haue happened in the printing especially hauing byn cōstrained through the difficulties of these times to vse the help of strangers and such as are ignorant in our tongue It is in all humble manner desired that these said Circūstances duly considered thou wouldest in no wise heerin condemne the said Authour as accessary heerto but fauourably affoarding thy Censure heerof and in reading ouer the Booke to correct them with thy pen they being heere exactly gathered by himselfe and set downe as followeth EPistle Dedicatory Pag. 7. lin 3. Catholiques Corrige Catholique In the Preface PAg. 2. lin 26. indifferent Corrige in different Pag. 7. lin 26. transfered Corrige transferred In the first Part. PAg. 38. lin 26. one the other Corrïge one and the other Pag. 44. lin 6. contentions Corrige contentious Pag. 45. lin 29. as there is Corrige as in Job is Pag. 51. lin 15. affirme knowledge Corrige affirme that our first knowledge Pag. 54. lin 8. it Corrige is Ibid. lin 24. then Corrige them Pag. 56. lin 25. languages Corrige languages Pag. 57. lin 25. Hospinians Corrige Hospinianus Pag. 59. lin 1. Caerlile corrige Carlile Pag. 61. lin 11. No! Corrige No. Pag. 67. lin 7. seditions corrige seditious Pag. 78. lin 6. not corrige no Pag. 79. lin 1. seuerall corrige seuerally Pag. 89. lin 16. they holy corrige the holy Pag. 95. lin 30. deleatur be Pag. 99. lin 4. sayth corrige he sayth Pag. 102. lin 8. Hold corrige hold Pag. 103. lin 1. Circumcision D. Potter corrige Circumcision D. Potter Pag. 105. lin 3. errours But x corrige errours x But c. for the letter x is not referred to Philaletes but to the Moderate examination c. Pag. 111. lin 2. at corrige it Pag. 113. lin 9. Text corrige Texts Ibid. lin 17. or corrige nor Pag. 115. lin 16. nor corrige not Pag. 119. in the Title Chap. 111. corrīge Chap. 1111. Pag. 124. lin 2. beliene corrige belieue Pag. 126. lin 25. their corrige there for in Latin it is ibi not illorum Pag. 135. lin 17. of few corrige or few Pag. 136. lin 22. danably corrige damnably Ibid. lin 26. damnably corrige damnably I meane it ought not to be in a different or curciffe letter because it is not D. Potters word though it follow out of his doctrine Pag. 140. lin 5. before to auoyd corrige before To auoid Pag. 141. lin 4. supposes it doth corrige supposes It doth Pag. 146. lin 25. name confesse corrige name J confesse Pag. 147. lin 19. which corrige with Pag. 149. lin 10. deleatur we Pag. 155. lin 11. we was corrige he was Pag. 161. lin 10. 26. Napier corrige Napper Ibid. lin 19. goodly corrige godly Ibid. lin 29. wilernes corrige wildernes Ibid. lin 31. Hailbronerus corrige Hailbronnerus Pag. 162. lin 15. for that corrige that for Pag. lin 17. conld corrige could Pag. 163. lin 29. haue also corrige haue not also Pag. 165. lin 22. men depart corrige men to depart Pag. 174. lin 5. Christopher Potter corrige D. Christop Potter Pag. 183. lin 20. at last corrige at least Pag. 184. lin 29. your grounds corrige your owne grounds Ibid. lin 30. inough corrige enough The like also pag. 185. lin 2. 6. 7. 8. inough corrige enough Pag. 185. lin 9. deleatur not Pag. 187. lin 6. breach in corrige breach in Pag. 190. lin 1. 2. And D. Potter corr And yet D. Potter Pag. 193. lin 7. Reformation corrige Reformation Pag. 197. lin 18. sencelenesse corrige sencelesnesse Pag. 200. lin 25. manuer corrige manner Pag. 204. lin 6. after impossible adde and damnable Pag. 209. lin 26. correct the parenthesis this What do you meane that they are his owne conceyts and yet grounded vpon euidence of Scripture Pag. 212. lin 16. the gouernment corrige her gouernment Pag. 215. lin 18. Augustines corrige Augustine Pag. 218. lin 14. deleatur that Pag. 221. lin 16. Gods Church corrige Gods Word Pag. 225. lin 24. A godly corrige A goodly Pag. 230. lin 5. for corrige from Pag. 233. lin 18. see by a corrige see now by a Pag. 235. lin 2. summoued corrige summoned Pag. 238. lin 22. these corrige those Ibid. lin 24. certainly corrige certainty Pag. 239. lin 9. from Authority corrige from
very Sea of Peter the Apostle to whom our Sauiour after his Resurrection committed his Sheep to be fed euen to the present Bishop Origen to this purpose giueth vs a good and wholesome Rule happy if himselfe had followed the same in these excellent words Since there be many who thinke (f) Praef. ad lib. Periâ—â—â—chon they belieue the things which are of Christ and some are of different opinion from those who went before them let the preaching of the Church be kept which is deliuered by the Apostles by order of Succession and remaines in the Church to this very day that only is to be belieued for truth which in nothing disagrees from the Tradition of the Church In vaine then do these men brag of the doctrine of the Apostles vnles first they can demonstrate that they enioy a continued Succession of Bishops from the Apostles and can shew vs a Church which according to S. Augustin is deduced by vndoubted SVCCESSION from the Sea (g) Cont. Faust cap. 2 of the Apostles euen to the present Bishops 23. But yet neuerthelesse suppose it were granted that they agreed with the doctrine of the Apostles this were not sufficient to proue a Succession in Doctrine For Succession besides agreement or similitude doth also require a neuer-interrupted conueying of such doctrine from the time of the Apostles till the dayes of those persons who challenge such a Succession And so S. Augustine sayth We are to belieue that Gospell which from the time of the Apostles the (h) Lib. 28. cout Faust. â— 2. Church hath brought downe to our dayes by a neuer-interrupted course of times and by vndoubted succession of connection Now that the Reformation begun by Luther was interrupted for diuers Ages before him is manifest out of History and by his endeauouring a Reformation which must presuppose abuses He cannot therfore pretend a continued Succession of that Doctrine which he sought to reuiue and reduce to the knowledge and practise of men And they ought not to proue that they haue Succession of doctrine because they agree with the doctrine of the Apostles but contrarily we must infer that they agree not with the Apostles because they cannot pretend a neuer-interrupted Succession of doctrine from the times of the Apostles till Luther And heere it is not amisse to note that although the Waldenses Wicliffe c. had agreed with Protestants in all points of doctrine yet they could not brag of Succession from them because their doctrine hath not beene free from interruption which necessarily crosseth Succession 24. And as Want of Succession of Persons and Doctrine cannot stand with that Vniuersality of Time which is inseparable from the Catholique Church so likewise the disagreeing Sects which are dispersed throughout diuers Countreys and Nations cannot help towards that Vniacrsality of Place wherwith the true Church must be endued but rather such locall multiplication doth more and more lay open their diuision and want of Succession in Doctrine For the excellent Obseruation of S. Augustine doth punctually agree with all moderne Heretiques wherein this holy Father hauing cited these words out of the Prophet Ezechiel (i) Cap. 24. My flockes are dispersed vpon the whole face of the Earth he adds this remarkable sentence Not all Heretiques (k) Lib. de Pastorib c. 8. are spred ouer the face of the Earth and yet there are Heretiques spred ouer the whole face of the Earth some heere some there yet they are wanting in no place they know not one another One Sect for example in Africa another Heresy in the East another in Egypt another in Mesopotamia In diuers places they are diuers one Mother Pride hath begot them all as our one Mother the Catholique Church hath brought forth all faithfull people dispersed throughout the whole world No wonder then if Pride breed Dissention and Charity Vnion And in another place applying to Heretiques those words of the Canticles If thou know not (l) Cant. 1. thy selfe goe forth and follow after the steps of the flocks and feed thy kids he sayth If thou know not thy selfe goe (m) Ep. 48. thou forth I do not cast thee out but goe thou out that it may be said of thee They went from vs but they were not of vs. Goe thou out in the steps of the flocks not in my steps but in the steps of the flocks nor of one flocke but of diuers and wandring flocks And feed thy Kids not as Peter to whom is said Feed my sheep but feed thy Kids in the Tabernacles of the Pastors not in the Tabernacle of the Pastor where there is One flock and one Pastor In which words this holy Father doth set downe the Markes of Heresy to wit going out from the Church and Want of Vnity among themselues which proceed from not acknowledging one supreme Visible Pastor and Head vnder Christ And so it being proued that Protestants hauing neither succession of Persons nor Doctrine nor Vniuersality of Time or Place cannot auoid the iust note of Heresy 25. Hitherto we haue brought arguments to proue that Luther and all Protestants are guilty of Heresy against the Negatiue Precept of fayth which obligeth vs vnder paine of damnation not to imbrace any one error contrary to any truth sufficiently propounded as testified or reuealed by Almighty God Which were inough to make good that among Persons who disagree in any one point of fayth one part only can be saued Yet we will now proue that whosoeuer erreth in any one point doth also breake the Affirmatiue Precept of Fayth wherby we are obliged positiuely to belieue some reuealed truth with an infallible and supernaturall Fayth which is necessary to saluation euen necessitate finis or medij as Deuines speake that is so necessary that not any after he is come to the vse of Reason was or can be saued without it according to the words of the Apostle Without Fayth (n) Hebr. 11.6 it is impossible to please God 26. In the beginning of this Chapter I shewed that to Christian Catholique fayth are required Certainty Obscurity Prudence and Supernaturality All which Conditions we will proue to be wanting in the beliefe of Protestants euen in those points which are true in themselues and to which they yield assent as hapneth in all those particulars wherin they agree with vs from whence it will follow that they wanting true Diuine Fayth want meanes absolutely necessary to saluation 27. And first The fayth of Protestants wanteth Certainty that their beliefe wanteth Certainty I proue because they denying the Vniuersall infallibility of the Church can haue no certaine ground to know what Obiects are reuealed or testifyed by God Holy Scripture is in it selfe most true and infallible but-without the direction declaration of the Church we can neyther haue certaine meanes to know what Scripture is Canonicall nor what Translations be faythfull nor what is the true meaning of Scripture Euery Protestant as I suppose