is all one a Protestant On the other side If it be the Catholikes share to be the Defendant He is bound to make good many points That is to say all that doctrine which we maintaine to be of faith and to have received by Tradition The Conclusion therefore is that the Catholike hath much to maintaine and little to oppose The Protestant hath great choice of what to oppose and little to maintaine So that his advantage on this hand is very great in regard of disputation Since if he receive a wound in any limb of that great body he is to defend it is a mortall one to his cause And his adversary is invulnerable to him every where but in one pointe The reason of this difference dependeth of the knowne Axiome Bonum ex integrâ causâ Malum ex quolibet defectu The Catholike Party hath a Religion hath an Art and skill of living well and of going to heaven Such a thing must have a body And a body can not consist without many members and parts Every one of which must be defended and made good All other Sects are but deficiencies more or lesse from this rule Those more who cleave fastest to the rule of deficiency that is to say to the rejecting of all that cannot be convinced out of Scripture Those lesse who perceiving the inconveniencies this bringeth upon them do soonest recede in practise from this crooked rule and to contradict their maine ground of all being fallible by forcing their subjects to hold their Tenets that they have no authority for themselves having forsaken the legitimate authority by which the Catholike Church sticketh to Tradition The eleventh REFLEXION Of some particular Caveats for Catholikes THe Catholike defendant having so hard a taske some few notes will be necessary for him As first that he should not ofter to maintaine against arguments drawne out of nature such positions as he is not able to satisfy himselfe in for example against an Arrian or Sabellian lett him not undertake to dispute and argue in reason how the same thing can be one and three unlesse he be first sure that hee understandeth it well and that himselfe resteth satisfyed with reason in that point For it is impossible to give the Auditory satisfaction if he hath it not himselfe Especially if the disputant be subtle and able to manage his Argument The like is of the blessed Sacrament to shew how one body can at the same time be im more places then one In this case therefore the Defendant is to keepe himselfe upon the generall defence that wee believe Mysteries of faith whether we can answere Arguments against them or no That the word of God is able to give us certitude above all demonstration and above all that wee can understand Neither are wee without the example of our Adversaries themselves when we do thus For in this very Mystery of the Eucharist they will tell us that Christ is really and truly present in it But that the Manner how he is there is not understandable In the Trinity and in the Incarnation Protestants do the like acknowledging these Mysteries to be true but withall professing them to be above their understanding Yet this rule is not so peremptory but that by discretion it may admitt exception For our Adversaries are so weake that they ground most of their Axiomes and proofes rather upon confidence wee will not deny them then that themselves are able to make them good So in the Mystery of the Eucharist when they insist upon the Maxime that the same body can not be att the same time in two places If you putt them to proove it you shall finde that their word will be to say that even our owne Doctors confesse it or that experience assureth us of it Whereas experience is no Argument against Gods Omnipotency And as to what private Doctors affirme it is att every Mans pleasure to grant or deny it So that if you understand your Adversaries strength you may non-sute him by putting him to prove what you know he can not But this is a hazard And you are shamed if you faile An other Caveat for our defendant is Not to engage himselfe in a Controversy upon the opinion of one party of Devines Nor undertake to defend against his Adversary a position which some of our owne Devines do oppose and so is rather a question of Scholasticall Divinity then a Controversy of faith To this purpose it is to be noted that some opinions are of a greater latitude then others establishing faith upon that whereof others confine it but to some one part As in the Matter of Infallibility some place it in the Pope some in a generall Councell some in both some in the whole Church which conteineth all these and more Here the cautious Controvertist that hath care of his Safety will be sure to choose that which is most ample and so quitteth himselfe from the trouble and danger of answering Arguments made against the single parts and keepeth himselfe to the strong hold of Christianity wherein all parties agree True it is that if the defendant be putt to declare his position and an Argument do presse him Hee may sometimes be obliged to choose one opinion of Divines before an other or rather is forced to follow that which he is best acquainted with But the rule I give must serve where and when there is place for it And besides the already mentioned advantages that this course giveth It causeth a great narrownesse or brevity in controversies which bringeth the dissenting parties farre neerer to agreement and setleth more stablenesse in Religion by making men dicerne what belongeth to faith and what doth not but is the opinions of particular Doctors The twelfth REFLEXION Of the qualities of some sort of Arguments drawne out of Scripture THe next thing we are to look into Is the quality of the Arguments which are to be used in those Disputations By the precedent discourse it is evident â—hat they are of three kindes Out of Scripture out of Fathers and out of reason To begin with Scripture It is againâ— cleare that arguments may be thence deduced two wayes The one out of the pure force of the wordes The other out of the connexion of the sense and discourse acknowledged â—n the wordes With the conclusion that iâ— to be proved In the former way Arguents either presse the wordes of one single sentence which they bring thinking to make it evident that their assertion is the very meaning of those wordes Or else they bring a conglobation of sundry places of which the one fortifyeth the other so as to make it evident that the plaine sense of wordes so often reiterated cannot choose but be the true meaning of the Scripture To begin with the first branch of the Manner of drawing arguments out of single Texts of Scripture we may divide into two kindes the Texts that are produced for this purpose For they are either such as
CONTROVERSY LOGICKE Or The Methode to come to truth in debates of Religion Written by THOMAS WHITE GENTLEMAN ANNO 1659. THE INTRODUCTION MR. John Biddle who is represented to me as one of the most learned and most rationall among the enemies of the Roman Church wrote a booke wherein he declared what opinion he had framed to himselfe out of Scripture concerning the blessed Trinity And that not out of Scripture alone but also out of the Fathers of the first three Centuries smoothly skipping ouer according to the vsuall actiuity of a Protestant Doctor aboue a thousand yeares att a leaue By which proceeding he pretendeth that neither the Caluinist nor any other who sticketh to pure Scripture nay not the Protestant himselfe who extendeth his authority to the Fathers of the first three hundred yeares and no further haue any law or right to censure him seeing he maintaineth all the Principles of both these sortes of persons and offereth to justify out of them by disputation whatsoever he hath written Excepting which two pretended authorities namely of Scripture and of the Fathers of the first three Centuries both of them privately interpreted there is nothing but meere willfulnesse to move any of the fore-mentioned persons to believe firmely any conclusion of faith and Religion or to censure rationally any who hold the contrary opinions This man not withstanding his so conformable plea and the maine position of liberty of Prophecying which is the Basis of all those who refuse the judgment of a speaking Church wee see detained prisoner by publike authority and his booke burned by the hand of the publike Executioner This begott in me as I conceive it did the like in sundry others a desire and curiosity of speaking with him Which not being able to compasse by my slender power My next worke was to reade his booke After which I must not deny him this commendation that supposing the principle of every mans choosing his Religion out of Scripture Grammatically intrepreted at is the manner of all those who recede from the authority of tradition he proceedeth very rationally and consequently Neither do I imagine that any of his persecutors is able to give a satisfactory answere to what he hath written And this hath bin confirmed in me since I have vnderstood that some have sett out workes against him which haue not afforded the discreeter part even of their owne followers the content they expected from them And that others have attempted to do the like but have bin soo discreete as to suppresse their endeavours vpon their finding the successe did not correspond to their wishes This hath made the booke be esteemed exceeding dangerous to Christian Religion by those who thought they have no rule to know what is solide and what is not in Matters of Religion yet are by the force of custome and consent of the greatest part of the Christian name detained from renouncing the God-head of the whole Trynity as esteeming it the maine foundation for a materiall point of Christian beliefe and that which hath brought forth during to many ages those heroyke actions and noble effects wherewith the Christian world is enriched aboue the neglected times of Paganisme Now this consideration or rather experiment as it conuinced clearly that disputations betweene all such as adhere solely to Scripture are for the most part meerely vaine and fruitlesse for witty men will neuer commit too great a folly as to maintaine by Scripture what is palpably and vngloseably against it so it made me reflect that euen the disputations which we Catholikes do vse against Protestants are seldome and onely by accident profitable And by farther rumination my thoughts sprunge out the ensuing treabise I may not conclude this preamble without reflecting vpon Mr. Biddles appeale to the Fathers of the first three Ages which exclusion of those of the following Ages Not because it is his but because it is common to him and to the Protestants and euer to the learnedest Caluinists as may be seene in the workes of Chamier and Daille Truly to my thinking it is a most ridiculous and vnreasonable proposition For I would faine know how it can fall into the braines of any indifferently discoursine man to doubt whiter the Fathers of the fourth Age did not know what the Fathers of the former Ages held better then we can discouer it out of their writings that remaine to vs Then more of them were extant Neither was there any cauils or att least very few which of them were trew which suppositions The stile the phrase the circumstances the practises of the times wherein those Fathers wrote were then better vnderstood And which is the chiefe ô fall there were yet wittnesses aliue who either had knowne them or att least knew others that had knowne them and had conuersed with them so that by being acquainted with the opinions of the men they could not doubt of the sense and interpretation of such hard passages as by inaduertence naturall euen to the most diligent and most wary writers could not chose but sometimes fall from their pennes These were the aduantages of the 4.th Age ouer this wherein we now liue And consequently if we can aske the 4.th Age what it was that these fathers held and may haue their assured answere to our question There can be no comparison betweene that euidence and what we can guesse att out of those scrappes and remnants of darke expressions which in many cases must be the subject of our enquiry if we examine their writinges I will giue you for an example this booke of Maister Biddle that hath occasioned the following discourse Reade the testimomyes he alleageth they will seeme to you the very contexture of the treatises out of which he hath drawne them so large in some places so continuedly page after page whereas generally our Protestant citations are bur of a line or two spoken vpon the by whiles the Authors discourse concerneth an other businesse And yet neuer the lesse nothing can be more manifest then that the doctrine he pretendeth to abett by those testimonies was not the opinion of the fathers he alleageth for it The councill of Nice called the Great that is the Vniuersall Christian world with open mouth and one consent condemning the Arrians of nouelty And St. Athanasius so many times vpbraiding them to their faces that their progenitors were onely Caïphas and Artemas and such like and that their Clergy men were faine to learne how to professe their faith and how to speake a certaine token of their hauing bin formerly taught the contrary The like in effect is in all other controuersies betweene Protestants and vs for in any of them the 4.th Age doth testify that the doctrine it holdeth is descended from their fore-Fathers and is in quiet possession of beliefe in the Church and that the opiniō they dispute against is a nouuelty they do thereby declare the doctrine of the precedent age more efficaciously then any testimonies
that he was faine to learne of new to reade Deservedly hee But what I deduce out of this relation is first that his reasons though in his owne judgment they were not efficacious yet they convinced the whole auditory and that of no common persons By which we may understand that the reasons he brought were not demonstrations nor were the best that might have been alledged for that subject Celse better could not have been opposed And neverthelesse they carried so great an Auditory From whence we may inferre how violent a power the force of this art of talking must necessarily have upon the ordinary sort of men to make them take their Master for a great Doctor An other note that I make upon this occasion is that all the talking of such men is not or ought not to bee sufficient to perswade us not onely that they speake the truth but even that they speak their owne mindes And after all their earnestnesse we may suspect their discourse is framed but to comply with the humour of the times or to promote their present interest or to please their auditors Tully professeth the same of his Oratours and sayth he also practised it himselfe But here I may not omitt the story of that expert generall and understanding man Hanniball the Carthaginian Antiochus having furnished him with a puissant and flourishing army would entertaine him also with an Oration concerning the art of warre and the manner how he ought to proceede in it made by a famous and long-practised Oratour Phormio who in the presence of Antiochus and his Captaines discoursed to Hannibal of this subject to the great applause and admiration of all that heard him excepting Hannibal who being asked how he liked him answered that in all his life-time he had never heard such an old dotardly foole prate A strange censure one would thinke on a man so generally exacted and cryed up Yet if we consider that Phormio had learned his skill of warre onely in written discourses and Histories but Hannibal in the field and in action it selfe wee may easily conceive that Phormios Oration talked of thinges in the ayre and formed his adversary in his fancy whereas Hannibal had studied the thinges in themselves and so knew groundedly what he spoke and saw that all the Oratours glorious speech was but a painted pageant not any effectuall exhibition of truth Hence we may conclude that the ability of discoursing in a high straine and in a pathetike manner is no argument of true learning in him that exerciseth it unlesse juggling and folly in impertinency may passe for learning Who were better talkers or better discoursers then the Academikes Yet their profession was that they had no truth and that indeed there was none to be found The nineteenth REFLEXION On what Divinity And who is a Divine LEtt us now apply this to practise and to our present subject Religion as we have already said is the most important and the most necessary businesse that belongeth to Mans nature and action It is so precisely one that if a man chance to mistake in it be the cause what it will he is lost for ever For as hee that misseth his way cometh not to his journeyes end whether it be his fault or others misguidance that hath made him misse his way So who treadeth not in the true path of Religion never arriveth at eternall happinesse lett the fault lye where it will Now if learning in Religion be the skill of shewing the path to heaven and if all the great noise that these talkers make helpeth one never a steppe thitherwards as not delivering any point of truth that may be relyed upon It is evident that the pretended learning of such persons is much further from the notion of true learning then the Grammar learning we spoke of before For though learning be lowe ad meane as being onely of wordes yet of them att least the Grammarian hath knowledge Whereas this prating this parrate-vertue though it be of thinges yet is it not a science of them but all is meere wordes and winde I heare them reply as they want neither wordes nor impudence to dispute against evidence that though it is true they promise no certainty because none can be had yet they make out high probability which is the Princesse that governeth humane affaires I will not at present discusse whether there be any certainty or no It is enough that the Catholike Church professeth certainty and ever hath done so and nature forceth even the denyers of this truth to act as if they had certainty in perswading and forcing others to their opinions But I wish that these men would speake plaine English and that in lieu of this quaint terme High probability they would tell us the meaning of it in wordes that honest men may understand Lett me see if I can helpe them That which they meane by prohability must either be some accesse towardes truth on the objects side Or a strong perswasion made in the Auditor If it bee a perswasion In the Auditory without any approach to the object clearely it signifyeth nothing else but a high cheate or an excellent juggle with prayse neither may I deny nor do I envy to such men Then for the objects side If there be no fixednesse or certainty of the object by all the arguments of this high Oratour I can not comprehend there is more in all he sayth then peradventure it is true peradventure not So that High Probability signifyeth High Peradventure Which how great a Non-sence it is if applyed to fixed verities that are not subject to the mutability of change and chance that is how ridiculously it is applyed to Religion and to truths of faith is evident to every sensible man If now men will needes have one termed a Divine because he can thus finely talke in the ayre of God and of thinges belonging to him he must be a Divine of blind Tiresias his tribe who in the Poët professeth his Divinity in these termes O Laërtiade Quicquid dicam aut erit aut non Divinare etenim magnus mihi donat Apollo The last part of the reply telleth us that Probabiliry governeth all human action I deny it not But withall I take notice that Action is one thing Beliefe an other Human action is about the gaining of a future End which dependeth on fallible principles as all mortall thinges doe Which are continually involved in a thousand uncertainties and changes But faith is of unchangeable verities which nothing hath power to make otherwise then it is already settled It is a parallel to science I meane to true science such as we se exercised in Geometry for which no man looketh into probabilities And to expect that faith should depend on probabilities is no lesse ridiculous then to thinke the like of Geometry since it is more necessary and more important then Geometry and the way to heaven is missed with greater danger and losse then
do acknowledg the thing the Catholicks call the Fathers accepting thereof commonly that is the two latter opinants no considerable part of them and the larger opinion nothing neer the half So that the consent of the Fathers in the sense of the Protestants signifieth nothing but the opniō of some few who have written either nothing or litle and obscurely of the points in cōtroversy The fourth Shuffle Of this Word Catholick Church TO the Catholick Church all plead the Apostles Creed forcing them to the name And Catholiks by this word understand a Church which hath endured from Father to Son from Christs time to ours still teaching the same Doctrine and living under an outward Visible goverment the head of which is in the Church of Rome and is the Pope And so acknowledg and obey a Visible and determinate authority to which recourse for Doctrine may in every moment bee made by looking into theire Catechismes and lives which are publick as those which were made by the order of the Council of Trent and in great ocasions to Generall meetings and in the meane while to the particular Church of Rome But the Protestant by this name pretends to a Church made of all whome they account good Christians which hath no other Rule then of the scripture that is of the fancy of every particular Congregation for their opinions no common goverment no bounds or limits to bee knowne by but such as the particular fancy of the Protestāt shal upō occasiō set to include or exclude whome he pleases So that plainly what they mean by the name of the Catholick Church is no determinate Congregation of men nor can have any influence to govern either faith or behaviour The fifth Shuffle Of consent with the Greeck Church SOme Protestants highly brag of theire communion with the Greek Church or rather of their consent of Doctrine with it for I have not heard of any communion unless with the Patriarch Cyril who for that cause was put out as an Heretik a business though of no consequence now yet for the name of what it hath been anciently of a colourable credit to them Let us therefore see what the Protestant means by this communion or consent Two points there are and onely two of moment of dissension betwixt the Greek and Latine Church The one about the Procession of the Holy Ghost in which the 39. Articles men agree with the Latine Church against the Graecians and yet these are the men who most pretend to the Greek Vnion The other of obedience to the Pope in the which the Greeks freely acknowledg the Popes Primacy which is the stumbling block to the Protestants and confess he were to bee obeyed if he made just commands and onely except against his oppression as they call it and clayming of more then his right And in this which is no matter of faith but of Schisme and if unjust confest if doubtfull suspected rebellion So that this glorious consent they boast of is not in Doctrine or sacraments the life of Christians but in a case of schisme and disobedience which is common to all Hereticks The sixth Shuffle Of Roman Church Nay some of thē being ashamed of their owne orphanage and that they can not name their Father or Mother wil in spite of the Roman Church and her defying them intrude themselves into heroff spring saying shee is substantially a true Church though shee coucheth insufferable errours in her faith which force them not to communicate with her let us therefore see what these meane by this Word the Roman Church Catholicks Meane by the name of Church a Congregation of men joyned with Rome in an obligation of Government for the maintaining faith sacraments and good life taking this obligation to bee that which maketh the mene bound together by it to bee a Church The Protestant takes this obligation to bee an unsufferable Tyranny wil have no rule of faith but such an one as hee can turne which way hee thinkes best for his interest or fancy sacraments and government no other then what hee cannot avoide out of his proposed rule of faith or at most without the shame of the world So that hee meanes nothing that belongs to the making a multitude of men a Church but onely the multitude of men of which a Church may bee made as if a man should call a house or Palace the ruines of one lying in a heape where it was fallen The seventh Shuffle Of the Word Mission THese are some but Generally the Prelatick party engages in deriving themselves by Mission from the Roman Church Lett us see then what they intend by this word Mission The Catholick interpretation is that Mission signifies a command givē to the party sent to deliver a Message to them to whome hee is sent which makes the Apostles question good How can they preach if they are not sent That is if no body deliver them an Errand to carry and God is sayed to put his owne Words in the Mouths of those he sends and Christe when hee sent his Apostles bad them preach or deliver to the world what he had taught them Now because this command or commission is delegated in the Catholick Church by a certaine ceremony which is called ordination or the sacrament of Order The Protestant grew ambitious of this outside and so pretends his first Prelates had an Ordination from the Catholick Bishops whome they had deposed or at least violently cast out from theire sees And this they call to have a Mission from the Roman Church So that they do not as much as pretend to the substance of the thing called truely Mission but to an outside and shadow good enough to serve their turnes who love the Glory of men and seek not after Gods honour The eighth Shuffle Of being like to the Primitive Church Another thing in which they insult over Catholicks is Antiquity the which because it hath a venerable awfulness in it self they specially the Presbyterian party much presume upon professing their Church to be more like the Ancient Christian Church thē the Catholicks is asking whether S. Peter were the Prince of Rome Bishops in such great Pompe had such Courts Altars Churches pictures in such abundance and so richly attired Ceremonies and Sacraments performed with so great magnificence and Order By which we see wherein these men place the Antiquity they pretend to to wit that the Church had not those meanes to draw weak hearts which need the helps of bodily appareances to raise themselves to the conceit of invisible goods Whereas the Catholick pretends to Antiquity and to bee like the primitive times in the substātial means of Christian life as in Church government and power of Bishops their accommodating of the quarrels of the faithfull by the order of the Apostles Performing the mass Baptisme Ordination and other Sacraments with exactness and diligence the Reliques and Holy Burialls having Feasts Fasts Penitential Canons flocks of People of both
us to follow them doe demolish the fences and bullwarckes of the same Christianity and good life But all they who deserve the name of heretikes do agree to charge the Church of Christ with corruption and adultery and do deny in her both infallibility to know Christs doctrine and power to governe And consequently they destroy externall unity and the essence of it Which as it is not formally to ruine good life so it is more then to breake downe her outworkes since it entrencheth upon the very substance in common and leaveth no meanes but meere chance and hazard to come to the knowledge of Christs law and consequently to eternall salvation Whence we may understand what this name Popery signyfyeth to witt An affection or resolution to maintaine faith and good life and the causes of conserving them There are divers other points controverted betweene Catholikes and Sectaries But they are such as for the most part require no explication but a flatt denyall As when they accuse us to have deprived the Laiety of halfe the Communion we deny it For besides that the generall practise of Christians hath bin from the beginning to give the sacrament sometimes in one kinde ometimes in both the Church hath alwayes believed that the entire communion was perfectly administred in either We likewise deny that ever the Church held the necessity of communicating Infants The Popes personall infallibility that Indulgences can draw soules out of Purgatory that Prayers ought of necessity be in an unknowne tongue to though we may thinke it fitting in some circumstances that the publike service for reverence and Majesty be so performed that faith is not to be kept with Heretikes that the Pope can dispense with the subjection to Princes And many such other Tenets which are injuriously imposed upon Catholikes by Sectaries and are flatly denyed by us and therefore require no further explication or discourse about them A Sampler of Protestants Shuffling in there Disputes of Religion COntroversy Logick or the art of discoursing in matter of Religion between those who profess the Law of Christe can not be complete unless as Aristotle made a Book of fallacies to avoide cavills in his Organe or instrument of science so wee also discover the common fallacies used in controversies Not all but the chiefest and most ordinarily in this business This then is the scope of my present work For which the first note I make is that owre Ancients have taught us and by experience wee daylie finde that Heresie is in a manner as soon overthrowne as layed open falshood like turpitude being ashamed of nakedness Therefore 't is falshoods game to vest it self like an Angel of light in the skin of the lamb and to seeme to weare the Robes of truth I mean by words like those of the Catholick party to delude the simplicity of the Innocent and welwishing People And now must it be our theame to unvaile theire Shufflings The first Shuffle Of the Word Scripture And first If we aske them what they rely upon they braggingly answer on Gods word upbraiding Catholicks to rely upon men when they fly to the churches witness but if we press thē to declare what they meā by Gods word to wit the Book of the Bible or the meaning of it they are forced to answer the sense for even beasts can convince them that wee have the Book as well as they Marching on another step and pressing to know by what instruments or means they have the sense there is no subterfuge from confessing it is by reading and their owne judging or thinking the sense of the Scripture is that which they affirme though all Catholicks affirm the contrary And although even in this they are cosened following for the most part the explication of their preacher Yet I press not that for they know not that they do so But I conclude see what you meane when you say you rely upon Scripture or Gods word to wit that you rely upon your owne opinion or guessing that this is Gods word So that this glorious profession of relying upon Gods word is in substance and reality to rely upon the opinion or guessing of a Cobler or Tinker or some house-wife when the answerers are such or at most of a Minister who for his owne interest is bound to maintaine this is the meaning of Gods word The second Shuffle Of Generall Councils SOme Protestants are so bold as to profess they wil stand to Generall Councils Now a General Council in the language of Catholicks is a general meeting of the Christian World by the Bishops and Deputies of it to testify the Doctrine of the Christian Church And is accounted inerrable in such determinations and therefore to have power to command the faith of Christians and to cast out of the Church al who do not yield to such their determinations and agreements and by consequence to have a supreme Authority in the Church in matters of faith The Protestants loath to leave the shadow though they care not for the substance use the name but to no effect For the intention being to manifest the Doctrine of the Christian World They first agree not upon the notion of what a Council is Requiring sometimes that al Bishops should bee present sometimes that all Patriarks though known to bee professed Hereticks and under the Turk sometimes objecting want of liberty and mainly that they decide not by disputation out of onely scripture or that they taught false Doctrine So that to the Protestant a Council signifies an indefinite and uncertaine when and what it is meeting of men going upon the scripture Which as it is before declared signifies every cobler or Ministers fancie which hath no authority to binde men to believe and is to bee judged by the Doctrine or agreement in faith with the Protestants The third Shuffle Of the consent of Fathers THe consent of the Fathers or Doctours of Christians before oure age and controversies beares so Venerable an aspect as that few Hereticks dare at least before honest understanding Christians give it flatly the lye Therefore the discreeter part of Protestants acknowledg it yet with a salve that they were all men and might bee deceived which in effect is to say that it is no convincing or binding Authority as Catholicks hold it to bee nay to bee a stronger authority then that of Councils as being the judgement of the Catholick Church or the learned part of it which is al one as to faith The Protestant first at one clap cutts of a thousand or 13. hundred yeares nay some 15. hundred The one saying S. Gregory the great was the last Father and first Papistrie the more ordinary course being to acknowledg onely the Fathers of the Persecution time before Constantine finding Popery as they call it to publick afterwards some pressing that ever since the decease of the Apostles the Church hath been corrupted So that they neither give any authority to the consent of Fathers nor