or Crimes are against Points Fundamentall or of great Consequence Els S. Paul would not have given the Rule for Excommunication 1 Cor. 5. Nor Christ 1 Cor. 5. 5. himselfe have put the man that will not heare and Obey the Church into the place and condition of an Ethnick and a Publican as he doth S. Mat. 18. And Salomon's S Mat. 18. 17. Rule is generall and he hath it twice My Son forsake not the teaching or instruction of thy Mother Now this is either spoken and meant of a naturall Mother And her Prov. 18. Uid S. Aug. 2. Conf. e. 3. and Prov. 6. 20. Eccluâ—… 3. 3. Prov. 15. 20. Authority over her Children is confirmed Ecclus. 3. And the foole will be upon him that despiseth her Prov. 15 Or'tis extended also to our Mystiâ—…all and Spirituall Mother the Church And so the Geneva b For sake not thy Mothers instruction that is the Teaching of the Church where in the faithfull are begotten by the incorruptible seed of Gods Word Annot. in Prov 1. 8. Note upon the Place expresses it And I cannot but incline to this Opinion Because the Blessings which accompany this Oâ—…edience are so many and great as that they are not like to be the fruits of Obedience to a Naturall Mother onely as Salomon expresses them all Prov. * Prov. 6. 21 6. And in all this here 's no Exception of the Mothers erring For Mater errans an erring Mother looses neither the right nor the power of a Mother by her error And I marvell what Sonne should shew reverence or Obedience if no Mother that hath erred might exact it 'T is true the Sonne is not to follow his Mothers error or his Mother into Error But 't is true too 't is a grievous crime in a Sonne to cast off all obedience to his Mother because at some time or in some things she hath fallen into error And howsoever this Consideration meetes with this Inconvenience as well as the rest For suppose as I said in the whole Catholike Militant Church an absolute Infallibility in the prime Foundations of Faith absolutely necessary to Salvation And then though the Mother Church Provinciall or Nationall may erre yet if the Grand-Mother the whole Vniversall Church cannot in these necessary things all remaines safe and all Occasions of Disobedience taken from the possibility of the Churches erring are quite taken away Nor is this Mother lesse to be valued by her Children because in some smaller things age had filled her face fuller of wrinkles For where 't is said that Christ makes to himselfe a Church without spot or wrinkle Eph. 5. That is not understood of the Ephes. 5. 27. Church Militant but of the Church Triumphant * In id progrediuntur Pelagiani ut dicant vitam Iustorum in hoe seculo nullum omnino habere peccatum ex his Ecclesiam Christi in hac mortalitate perfici ut sit omnino sine maculâ rugâ Quasi non sit Christi Ecclesia quae in toto terrarum orbe clamat ad Deum Dimitte nobis deâ—…ita nostra c. S. Aug. L. de Haeresibus Haer. 88. And to maintaine the contrary is a Branch of the spreading Heresy of Pelagianisme Nor is the Church on earth any frâ—…er from wrinkles in Doctrine and Discipline then she is from Spots in Life and Conversation The next thing I consider is Suppose a Generall Councell infallible in all things which are of Faith If it prove not so but that an Error in the Faith be concluded the same erring Opinion that makes it thinke it selfe infallible makes the Error of it seeme irrevocable And when Truth which lay hid shall be brought to light the Church who was lulled asleepe by the opinion of Infallibility is left open to all manner of Distractions as it appeares at this day And that a Councel may erre besides al other instances which are not few appeares by that Error of the Councell of a Sess. 13. Constance And one Instance is enough to overthrow a Generall be it a Councell b S. Matth. 26. Christ instituted the Sacrament of his Body and Blood in both Kinde 1 Cor. 11. 23. To breake Christs Institution is a damnable Error and so confessed by c Returne of Vntruths vpon Mr. Ieweil Ar. 2. untruth 49. Stapleton The Councel is bold and defines peremptorily That to communicate in both kindes is not necessary with a Non obstante to the Institution of Christ. Consider now with me Is this an Error or not d 4. De Eucharist c. 26. Bellarmine and Stapleton and you too say 't is not because to receive under both kindes is not by Divine Right No no sure For it was not Christs e Bellarm. ibid. §. Vicesimo proferunt Precept but his Example Why but I had thought Christs Institution of a Sacrament had beene more then his Example only and as binding for the Necessaries of a Sacrament the Matter and Forme †And now lately in a Catechisme printedat Paris 1637. without the Authors Name 't is twice affirmed thus The Institution of a Sacrament is of it selfe a Command Conference 14. p. 244. And againe p. 260. Institution is a Precept as a Precept Therefore speake out and deny it to bee Christs Institution or els grant with Stapleton It is a damnable Error to goe against it If you can prove that Christs Institution is not as binding to us as a Precept which you shall never be able take the Precept with it g S. Matth. 26. 1 Cor. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Liturg. S. Chrysost. Drinke ye All of this which though you shift as you can yet you can never make it other then it is A binding Precept But Bellarmine hath yet one better Devise then this to save the Councell He saith it is a meere Calumny and that the Councell hath no such thing That the Non obstante hath no reference to Receiving under both kindes but to the time of receiving it after Supper in which the Councell saith the Custome of the Church is to be observed Non obstante notwithstanding Christs Example How foule Bellarmine is in this must appeare by the Words of the Councell which are these * Licet Christus post Coenam instituerit suis Discipulis administraverit sub utrâque specie Panis Uini hoc venerabile Sacramentum tamen hoc Non obstante non debet confici post Coenam nec recipi nifi a jejunis Here Bellarmine stayes and goes no farther but the Councell goes on Et similitèr quòd licèt in Primitivâ Ecclesiâ Sacramenta reciperentur sub utrâque Specie à fidelibus tamen haec Consuetudo ut à Laicis sub Specie Panis tantum suscipiatur habenda est pro Lege quam non licet reprobare Et asserere hanc esse illicitam est Erroneum Et pertinacitèr asserentes sunt arcendi tanquam Haretici Sess. 13. Though
Christ instituted this venerable Sacrament and gave it his Disciples after Supper under both kindes of Bread and Wine yet Non obstante notwithstanding this it ought not to be Consecrated after Supper nor received but fasting And likewise that though in the Primitive Church this Sacrament was received by the faithfull under both kindes yet this Custome that it should be received by Lay-men only under the kinde of Bread is to be held for a Law which may not be refused And to say this is an unlawfull Custome of Receiving under one kinde is erroneous and they which persist in saying so are to be punished and driven out as Heretiks Now where is here any slander of the Councel The words are plaine and the Non obstante must necessarily for ought I can yet see be referred to both Clauses in the words following because both Clauses went before it hath as much force against Receiving under both kindes as against receiving after Supper Yea and the after-words of the Councell couple both together in this Reference for it followes Et similiter And so likewise that though in the Primitive Church c. And a man by the Definition of this Councell may be an Heretike for standing to Christs Institution in the very matter of the Sacrament And the Churches Law for One kinde may not be refused but Christs Institution under Both kindes may And yet this Councell did not erre No take heede of it But your opinion is more Vnreasonable then this for consider any Body Collective be it more or lesse Vniversal whensoever it assembles it selfe did it ever give more power to the Representing Body of it then binding power upon all particulars and it self And did it ever give this power otherwise then with this Reservation in Nature That it would call againe and reforme yea and if need were abrogate any Law or Ordinance upon just cause made evident that this Representing Body had failed in Trust or Truth And this Power no Body Collective Ecclesiasticall or Civill can put out of it selfe or give away to a Parliament or Councell or call it what you will that represents it Nay in my Consideration it holds strongest in the Church For a Councell hath power to order settle and Define differences arisen concerning Faith This Power the Councell hath not by any immediate Institution from Christ but it was prudently taken up in the Church from the * Act. 15. In Novo Testamento Exemplum celebrationis Conciliorum ab Apostolis habemâ—… c. Ioh. de Turrecremata Sum. de Eccl. L 3. c. 2. Et firâ—…it as Conciliorum nititur Exemplo primi Concilii Staple Relect. Contr. 6. q. 3. A. 4. Ad 3 um Apostles Example So that to hold Councells to this end is apparent Apostolicall Tradition written but the Power which Councells so held have is from the whole Catholike Church whose members they are and the Churches power from God And †This is more reasonable a great deale then that of Bellarmine 2. de Conc. c. 18. Pontificem non posse se subjicere seâ—…tentiae coactivae Conciliorum this Power the Church cannot farther give away to a Generall Councel then that the Decrees of it shall binde all Particulars and it self but not binde the whole Church from calling againe and in the After-Calls upon just cause to order yea and if neede be to abrogate former Acts. I say upon just cause For if the Councel be lawfully called and proceed orderly and conclude according to the Rule the Scripture the whole Church cannot but approve the Councell and then the Definitions of it are Binding And the Power of the Church hath no wrong in this so long as no Power but her own may meddle or offer to infringe any Definition of hers made in her Representative Body a Lawfull Generall Councell And certaine it is no Power but her owne may doe it Nor doth this open any gap to private Spirits For all Decisions in such a Councell are binding And because the Whole Church can meete no other way the Councell shall remaine the Supreme Externall Living Temporary Ecclesiasticall Iudge of all Controversies Only the whole Church and she alone hath power when Scripture or Demonstration is found and peaceably tendred to her to represent her selfe againe in a new Councell and in it to order what was amisse Nay your Opinion is yet more unreasonable For you doe not only make the Definition of a Generall Councell but the Sentence of the Pope infallible nay more infallible then it a Bellar. L. 2. de Conciliis c. 16. 17. For any Generall Councell may erre with you if the Pope confirme it not So belike this Infallibility rests not in the Representative Body the Councell nor in the Whole Body the Church but in your Head of the Church the Pope of Rome Now I may aske you to what end such a trouble for a Generall Councell Or wherin are we neerer to Vnity if the Pope confirme it not You answer though not in the Conference yet elsewhere That the Pope erres not especially giving Sentence in a Generall Councell And why especially Doth the Deliberation of a Councell helpe any thing to the Conclusion Surely not in your Opinion For you hold the Conclusion Propheticall the Meanes fallible and fallible Deliberations cannot advance to a Prophetik Conclusion And just as the Councel is in Stapletons Iudgment for the Definition and the Proofes so is the Pope in the Iudgment of b Canus lib. 6. de Lotis cap. 8. §. Et quidem in Pontifiees summi in Conclusione errare nequeunt Rationes autem c. Melch. Canus and them which followed him Propheticall in the Conclusion The Councell then is called but only in effect to heare the Pope give his Sentence in more state Els what meanes this of †Relect. Con. 6. q. 3. Art 5. ibid. Quia ad compescendo simportunos Haereticos Concilii Generalis Definitio illustrior est c. Et vulgo hominum magis satisfacit c. Stapleton The Pope by a Councell joyned unto him acquires no new Power or Authority or Certainty in judging no more then a Head is the wiser by joyning the Offices of the rest of the members to it then it is without them Or this of * 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3 §. At contra Nam Ex quo apparet totam firmitatem Conciliorum Legitimorum esse à Pontifice non partim a Pontifice partim à Cencilio Bellar. That all the firmenesse and infallibility of a Generall Councell is only from the Pope not partly from the Pope and partly from the Councell So belike the Presence is necessary not the Assistance Which opinion is the most groundlesse and worthlesse that ever offered to take possession of the Christian Church And I am perswaded many Learned Men among your selves scorne it at the very heart And I avow it I have heard some Learned and Iudicious Romane
Felicissimus and his Fellowes haste to Rome with Letters Testimoniall from their owne party and pretend that Twenty five Bishops concurred with them and their desire was to be received into the Communion of the Romane Church and to have their new Bishop acknowledged Cornelius then Pope though their hast had now prevented S. Cyprian's Letters having formerly heard from him both of them and their Schisme in Africke would neither heare them nor receive their Letters They grew insolent and furious the ordinary way that Schismaticks take Vpon this Cornelius writes to S. Cyprian and S. Cyprian in this Epistle gives Cornelius thanks for refusing these African fugitives declares their Schisme and wickednesse at large and encourages him and all Bishops to maintaine the Ecclesiasticall Discipline and Censures against any the boldest threatnings of wicked Schismaticks This is the Story and in this is the Passage here urged by Bellarmine Now I would faine know why Perfidia all Circumstances considered may not stand here in its proper sense for cunning and perfidious dealing which these men having practised at Carthage thought now to obtrude upon the Bishop of Rome also but that he was warie enough not to be over-reach'd by Busie Schismaticks 2. Secondly let it be granted that Perfidia doth signifie here Error in faith and doctrine For I will not denie but that among the African Writers and especially S. Cyprian it is somtimes so us'd and therefore here perhaps But then this Priviledge of not erring dangerously in the Faith was not made over absolutely to the Romanes that are such by birth and dwelling onely but to the Romanes qua tales as they were such as those first were whose faith was famous through the world and as long as they continued such which at that time it seemes they did And so S. Cyprian's words seeme to import eos esse Romanos that the Romanes then under Pope Cornelius were such as the b Rom. 1. 8. Apostle spake of and therefore to whom at that time or any time they still remaining such perfidious Misbeliefe could not be welcome Or rather indeed perfidious Misbelievers or Schismaticks could not be welcome For this very phrase Perfidia non potest habere accessum directs us to understand the word in a Concrete sense Perfidiousnesse could not get accesse that is such perfidious persons Excommunicated out of other Churches were not likely to get accesse at Rome Or to finde Admittance into their Communion It is but a Metonymie of speech the Adjunct for the Subject A thing very usuall even in elegant a Ego tibi istam scelestam Scelus â—…inguam abscindam Plaut Amphit Ex hac enim parte pudor pugnat illinc petulantia c. Cic. Látuit plebeio tectus amictu Omnis Honos Nullos comit at a est purpura fasces Lucan l. 2. Authours and much more in later times as in S. Cyprian's when the Latine Language was growne rougher Now if it be thus understood I say in the Concrete then it is plaine that S. Cyprian did not intend by these words to exempt the Romanes from possibility of Errour but to brand his Adversaries with a Title due to their Merit calling them perfidious that is such as had betrayed or perverted the Faith Neither can wee loose by this Construction as will appeare at after 3. But thirdly when all is done what if it bee no more than a Rhetoricall Excesse of speech Perfidia non potest for non facilè potest It cannot that is it cannot easily Or what if S. Cyprian doe but Laudando praecipere by commending †Nec cogitare eos esse Romanos quorum fides Apostolo praedicante c. them to be such instruct them that such indeed they ought to bee to whom Perfidiousnesse should not get accesse Men are very bountifull of their Complements sometimes * Epist. 67. Synesius writing to Theophilus of Alexandria begins thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. I both will and a Divine Necessity lies upon mee to esteeme it a Law whatsoever that Throne meaning his of Alexandria shall Determine Nay the Word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and that signifies to determine like an Oracle or as in Gods stead Now I hope you will say This is not to be taken Dogmatically it is but the Epistolers Courtesie onely And why not the like here For the haste which these Schismaticks made to Rome prevented Saint Cyprians Letters yet Cornelius very carefull of both the Truth and Peace of the Church would neither heare them nor receive their Letters till b Eor so S. Cyprian begins his Epistle to Cornelius Legi literas tuas frater c. And after Sed enim lectâ aliâ Epistolâ tuâ frater c. S. Cypr. L. 1. Epist. 3. hee had written to S. Cyprian Now this Epistle is S. Cyprian's answer to Cornelius in which he informes him of the whole truth and withall gives him thanks for refusing to heare these African Fugitives In which faire way of returning his thanks if hee make an honourable mention of the Romanes and their Faith with a little dash of Rhetorick even to a Non potest for a Non facilè potest 't is no great wonder But take which Answer you will of the three This is plaine that S. Cyprian had no meaning to assert the unerring Infallibility of either Pope or Church of Rome For this is more then manifest by the Contestation which after happened betweene S. Cyprian and Pope Stephen about the Rebaptization of those that were Baptized by Haereticks For hee †Stephanus Frater noster Haereticorum causam contra Christianos contra Ecclesiam Dei asserere conatur Cypr. ad Pompeium contra Epist Stephani Edit per Erasmum Basil. p. 327. saith expresly that Pope Stephen did then not onely maintaine an error but the very Cause of Haereticks and that against Christians and the very Church of God * Stephanus fratris nostri obstinatio dura Ibid p. 329. And it would be marked by the Iesuite and his A. C. that still it is Stephani fratris nostri and not Capitis or summi Pastoris nostri And after this he chargeth him with Obstinacy and Presumption I hope this is plaine enough to shew that S. Cyprian had no great Opinion of the Romane Infallibility Or if he had it when he writ to Cornelius certainely hee had chang'd it when he wrote against Stephen But I think it was no change and that when he wrote to Cornelius it was Rhetoricke and no more Now if any man shall say that in this Poynt of Rebaptization S. Cyprian himselfe was in the wrong Opinion and Pope Stephen in the right I easily grant that But yet that Error of his takes not off his judgement what he thought of the Papall or Romane Infallibility in those times For though afterwards a Caranza in Concil Carthag sub Cornel. fine S. Cyprian's Opinion was condemned in a Councell at Rome under Cornelius
speake of the Written Word and so lie crosse to Stapleton as is mention'd But to returne If A. C. will he may but I cannot believe That a Definition of the Church which is made by the expresse Word of God and another which is made without so much as a probable Testimony of it or a cleare Deduction from it are made firme to us by one and the same Divine Revelation Nay I must say in this case that the one Determination is firme by Divine Revelation but the other hath no Divine Revelation at all but the Churches Authority onely 2. Secondly I cannot believe neither That all Determinations of the Church are sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority of the Church For the Authority of the Church though it be of the same fulnesse in regard of it self and of the Power which it commits to Generall Councels lawfully called yet it is not alwayes of the same fulnesse of knowledge and sufficiency nor of the same fulnesse of Conscience and integrity to apply Dogmata Fidei that which is Dogmaticall in the Faith For instance I thinke you dare not deny but the Councell of Trent was lawfully called and yet I am of opinion that few even of your selves believe that the Councell of Trent hath the same fulnesse with the Councell of Nice in all the fore-named kinds or degrees of fulnesse Thirdly suppose That all Determinations of the Church are made firme to us by one and the same Divine Revelation and sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority yet it will not follow that they are all alike Fundamentall in the Faith For I hope A. C. himselfe will not say that the Definitions of the Church are in better condition than the Propositions of Canonicall Scripture Now all Propositions of Canonicall Scripture are alike firme because they all alike proceed from Divine Revelation but they are not all alike Fundamentall in the Faith For this Proposition of Christ to S. Peter and S. Andrew Follow me and I will make you fishers of men a S. Matth. 4. 19 is as firm a Truth as that which he delivered to his Disciples That he must die and rise againse the third day b S. Matth. 16. 21 For both proceed from the same Divine Revelation out of the mouth of our Saviour and both are sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority of the Church which receives the whole Gospell of S. Matthew to be Canonicall and infallible Scripture And yet both these Propositions of Christ are not alike Fundamentall in the Faith For I dare say No man shall be saved in the ordinary way of salvation that believes not the Death and the Resurrection of Christ. And I believe A. C. dares not say that No man shall be saved into whose Capacity it never came that Christ made S. Peter and Andrew fishers of men And yet should he say it nay should he shew it sub annulo Piscatoris no man will believe it that hath not made shipwrack of his Common Notions Now if it be thus betweene Proposition and Proposition issuing out of Christ's own Mouth I hope it may well be so also betweene even Iust and True Determinations of the Church that supposing them alike true and firme yet they shall not be alike Fundamentall to all mens beliefe F. Secondly I required to know what Points the Bishop would account Fundamentall He said all the Points of the Creed were such B. Against this I hope you except not For § 11 since the a Tertull. Apol. contra Gentes c. 47. de veland virg c. 1. S. August Serm. 15. de Temp. cap. 2. Ruffin in Symb. apud Cyprian p. 357. Fathers make the Creed the Rule of Faith b Alb. Mag. in 1. Sent. D. 11. A. 7. since the agreeing sense of Scripture with those Articles are the two Regular Precepts by which a Divine is governed about the Faith since your owne Councell of c Concil Trident Sess. 3. Trent decrees That it is that Principle of Faith in which all that professe Christ doe necessarily agree Fundamentum firmum unicum not the firme alone but the onely Foundation since it is Excommunication d Bonavent ibid. Dub. 2. 3. in literam ipso jure for any man to contradict the Articles contained in that Creed since the whole Body of the Faith is so contained in the Creed as that the e Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. Art 7. c. substance of it was believ'd even before the comming of Christ though not so expresly as since in the number of the Articles since f Bellar. L. 4. de Verb. Dei non Script c. 11. §. Primum est Bellarmine confesses That all things simply necessary for all mens salvation are in the Creed and the Decalogue what reason can you have to except And yet for all this everything Fundamentall is not of a like nearenesse to the Foundation nor of equall Primenesse in the Faith And my granting the Creed to be Fundamentall doth not deny but that there are g Tho. 2. 2ae q. 1. A. 7. C. quaedam prima Credibilia certaine prime Principles of Faith in the bosome whereof all other Articles lay wrapped and folded up One of which since Christ is that of S. h 1. S. Iohn 4. 2. Iohn Every spirit that confesseth Iesus Christ come in the flesh is of God And one both before the comming of Christ and since is that of S. Paul i Heb. 11. 6. He that comes to God must believe that God is and that he is a rewarder of them that seeke him Here A. C. tels you That either I must meane that those Points are onely Fundamentall which are expressed A. C. p. 46. in the Creed or those also which are infolded If I say those onely which are expressed then saith he to believe the Scriptures is not Fundamentall because 't is not expressed If I say those which are infolded in the Articles then some unwritten Church Traditions may be accounted Fundamentall The truth is I said and say still that all the Points of the Apostles Creed as they are there expressed are Fundamentall And therein I say no more than some of your best Learned have said before me But I never either said or meant That they onely are Fundamentall That they are a Conc. Trident. Sess. 3. Fundamentum unicum the only Foundation is the Councell of Trent's 't is not mine Mine is That the Beliefe of Scripture to be the Word of God and infallible is an equall or rather a preceding Prime Principle of Faith with or to the whole Body of the Creed And this agrees as before I told the Iesuite with one of your owne great Masters Albertus Magnus b In 1. Sent. D. 11. A. 7. Regula Fidei est concors Scriptururum sensus cum Articulis Fidei Quia illis duobus regularibus Praeceptis regitur Theologus who is not farre from
no where so steddily placed in this world but it will be in some danger And men that care neither for the Hive nor the Bees have yet a great minde to the Honey And having once tasted the sweet of the Churches Maintenance swallow that for Honey which one day will be more bitter then Gall in their Bowells Now the King and the Priest more then any other are bound to looke to the Integrity of the Church in Doctrine and Manners and that in the first place For that 's by farre the Best Honey in the Hive But in the second place They must be Carefull of the Churches Maintenance too els the Bees shall make Honey for others and have none left for their owne necessary sustenance and then all 's lost For we see it in daily and common use that the Honey is not taken from the Bees but they are destroyed first Now in this great and Busie Worke the King and the Priest must not feare to put their hands to the Hive though they be sure to be stung And stung by the Bees whose Hive and House they preserve It was King Davids Case God grant it be never Yours They came about mee saith the Psal. 118. 12. Psal. 118. * Apum Similitudine ardorem not at vesanum Non est enim in illis multum roboris sed mira Excandescentia Calv in Psal. 118. like Bees This was hard usage enough yet some profit some Honey might thus be gotten in the End And that 's the Kings Case But when it comes to the Priest the Case is alter'd They come about him like VVaspes or like Hornets rather all sting and no Honey there And all this many times for no offence nay sometimes for Service done them would they see it But you know who said Behold I come shortly and my reward is with mee to give to every man according as his VVorkes shall bee Revel 22. And he himselfe is so Revel 22. 12. * Gen 〈◊〉 exceeding great a Reward as that the manifold stings which are in the World howsoever they smart here are nothing when they are pressed out with that exceeding weight of Glory which shall be revealed Rom. 8. Rom. 8. 18. Now one Thing more let me be bold to Observe to Your Majesty in particular concerning Your Great Charge the Church of England 'T is in an hard Condition Shee professes the Ancient Catholike Faith And yet the Romanist condemnes Her of Novelty in her Doctrine Shee practises Church Government as it hath beene in use in all Ages and all Places where the Church of Christ hath taken any Rooting both in and ever since the Apostles Times And yet the Separatist condemnes Her for Antichristianisme in her Discipline The plaine truth is She is between these two Factions as betweene two Milstones and unlesse Your Majesty looke to it to VVhose Trust She is committed Shee 'll be grownd to powder to an irrepairable both Dishonour and losse to this Kingdome And 't is very Remarkeable that while both these presse hard upon the Church of England both of them Crye out upon Persecution like froward Children which scratch and kicke and bite and yet crye out all the while as if themselves were killed Now to the Romanist I shall say this The Errors of the Church of Rome are growne now many of them very Old And when Errors are growne by Age and Continuance to strength they which speake for the Truth though it be farre Older are ordinarily challenged for the Bringers in of New Opinions And there is no Greater Absurdity stirring this day in Christendome then that the Reformation of an Old Corrupted Church will we nill wee must be taken for the Building of a New And were not this so we should never be troubled with that idle and impertinent Question of theirs VVhere was your Church before Luther For it was just there where their's is now * There is no other difference betweene Vs Rome then betwixt a Church miserably Corrupted and happily purged c. Ios. Hall B. of Exon. In his Apologeticall Advertisement to the Reader p. 192. Approved by Tho. Morton B. then of Cov. Lich. now of 〈◊〉 in the Letters printed by the B. of Exeter in his Treatise called The Reconciler p. 68 And D. Field in his Appen to the third part c. 2. where he cites Calv. to the same purpose L. 4. Inst. c. 2. §. 11. One and the same Church still no doubt of that One in Substance but not one in Condition of state and purity Their part of the same Church remaining in Corruption and Our part of the same Church under Reformation The same Naaman and he a Syrian still but Leprous with them and Cleansed with us The same man still And for the Seperatist and him that layes his Grounds for Separation or Change of Discipline though all hee sayes or can say be in Truth of Divinity and among Learned Men little better then ridiculous yet since these fond Opinions have gain'd some ground among your people to such among them as are wilfully set to follow their blinde Guides thorough thicke and thin till * S. Matth. 15. 14 they fall into the Ditch together I shall say nothing But for so many of them as meane well and are onely misled by Artifice and Cunning Concerning them I shall say thus much only They are Bells of passing good mettle and tuneable enough of themselves and in their owne disposition and a world of pity it is that they are Rung so miserably out of Tune as they are by them which have gotten power in and over their Consciences And for this there is yet Remedy enough but how long there will bee I know not Much talking there is Bragging Your Majesty may call it on both sides And when they are in their ruffe they both exceed all Moderation and Truth too So farre till both Lips and Penns open for all the World like a Purse without money Nothing comes out of this and that which is worth nothing out of them And yet this nothing is made so great as if the Salvation of Soules that Great worke of the Redeemer of the World the Sonne of God could not be effected without it And while the one faction cryes up the Church above the Scripture and the other the Scripture to the neglect and Contempt of the Church which the Scripture it selfe teaches men both to honour and obey They have so farre endangered the Beliefe of the One and the Authority of the Other as that neither hath its Due from a great part of Men. Whereas according to Christs Institution The Scripture where 't is plaine should guide the Church And the Church where there 's Doubt or Difficulty should expound the Scripture Yet so as neither the Scripture should be forced nor the Church so bound up as that upon Just and farther Evidence Shee may not revise that which in any Case hath slipt by Her
other Whether you have related the two former truly appeares by D. White the late Reverend L. Bishop of Ely his Relation or Exposition of them I was present at none but this Third of which I here give the Church an Account But of this Third whether that were the Cause which you alledge I cannot tell You say F. It was observed That in the second Conference all the Speech was about particular matters little or none about a continuall infallible visible Church which was the chiefe and onely Point in which a certaine Lady required satisfaction as having formerly setled in her minde That it was not for her or any other unlearned Persons to take up on them to judge of Particulars without depending upon the Iudgement of the true Church B. The Opinion of that Honourable Person in § 2 this was never opened to mee And it is very fit the people should looke to the Iudgement of the Church before they bee too busie with Particulars But yet neither a 1 Cor. 10. 15. Scripture nor any good Authority denies them some moderate use of their owne understanding and Iudgement especially in things familiar and evident which even b Quis non sine ullo Magistro aut interprete ex se facilè cognoscat c. Novat de Trin. c. 23. Et loquitur de Mysterio Passion is Christi Dijudicare est Mensurare c. Unde Mens dicitur a Metiendo Tho. p. 1. q. 79. A. 9. ad 4. To what end then is a m nde and an understanding given a Man if he may not apply it to measure Truth Et 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. ab eo quod confiderat discernit Quiadecernit inter verum falsum Damasc. l. 2. Fid. Orth. c. 22. And A. C. himselfe p. 41. denyes not all Iudgement to private men but sayes they are not so to relie absolutely upon their private Iudgement as to adventure salvation upon it alone or chiefly which no man will deny ordinary Capacities may as easily understand as reade And therefore some Particulars a Christian may judge without depending F. This Lady therefore having heard it granted in the first Conference That there must bee a continuall visible Company ever since Christ teaching unchanged Doctrine in all Fundamentall Points that is Poynts necessary to salvation desired to heare this confirmed and proofe brought which was that continuall infallible visible Church in which one may and out of which one cannot attaine salvation And therefore having appointed a time of Meeting betweene a B. and me and thereupon having sent for the B. and me before the B. came the Lady and a friend of hers came first to the roome where I was and debated before me the aforesaid Question and not doubting of the first part to wit That there must be a continuall visible Church as they had heard granted by D. White and L. K. c. B. What D. White and L. K. granted I heard § 3 not But I thinke both granted a continuall and a visible Church neither of them an infallible at least in your sense And your selfe in this Relation speake distractedly For in these few lines from the beginning hither twice you adde infallible betweene continuall and visible and twice you leave it out But this concernes D. W. and he hath answered it Here A. C. steps in and sayes The Iesuite did not speake distractedly but most advisedly For saith he A. C. p. 40. where he relates what D. White or L. K. granted hee leaves out the word Infallible because they granted it not But where he speakes of the Lady there he addes it because the Iesuite knew it was an infallible Church which she sought to rely upon How farre the Catholike Militant Church of Christ is infallible is no Dispute for this Place though you shall finde it after But sure the Iesuite did not speake most advisedly nor A. C. neither nor the Lady her selfe if she said she desired to relie upon an Infallible Church For an Infallible Church denotes a Particular Church in that it is set in opposition to some other Particular Church that is not infallible Now I for my part doe not know what that Lady desired to relie upon This I know if she desired such a Particular Church neither this Iesuite nor any other is able to shew it her No not Bellarmine himselfe though of very great ability to make good any Truth which he undertakes for the Church of Rome †Feritas vincat necesse est sive Negantem sive confitentem c. S. Aug. Epist. 174. Ocâ—…ultari potest ad tempus veritas vinci non potest S. Aug. in Psal. 61. But no strength can uphold an Error against Truth where Truth hath an able Defendant Now where Bellarmine sets himselfe purposely to make Lib. 4. De Rom. Pont. Cap. 4. §. 1. Romana particularis Ecclesta non potest errare in Fide this good That the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in matter of Faith Out of which it followes That there may be found a Particular infallible Church you shall see what he is able to performe 1. First then after he hath Distinguished to expresse his meaning in what sense the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in things which are de Fide of the Faith he tells us this Firmitude is because the Sea Apostolike is fixed there And this he saith is most true * Ibid. §. 2. And for proofe of it he brings three Fathers to justifie it 1. The first S. Cyprian a Navigare audent ad Petri Cathodram Ecclesiam principalem c. Nec cogitare eos esse Romanos ad quos Perfidia habere non potest accessum Cypr. l. 1. Ep. 3. whose words are That the Romanes are such as to whom Perfidia cannot have accesse Now Perfidia can hardly stand for Error in Faith or for Misbeliefe But it properly signifies malicious Falsehood in matter of Trust and Action not error in faith but in fact against the Discipline and Government of the Church And why may it not here have this meaning in S. Cyprian For the Story there it is this b Bin. Concil To. 1. p. 152. Edit Paris 1636. Baron Annal. an 253. 254. 255. In the Yeare 255. there was a Councell in Carthage in the cause of two Schismatiks Felicissimus and Novatian about restoring of them to the Communion of the Church which had lapsed in time of danger from Christianity to Idolatry Felicissimus would admit all even without penance and Novatian would admit none no not after penance The Fathers forty two in number went as the Truth led them between both Extreames To this Councell came Privatus a knowne Heretick but was not admitted because he was formerly Excommunicated and often condemned Hereupon he gathers his Complicies together and chooses one Fortunatus who was formerly condemned as well as himselfe Bishop of Carthage and set him up against S. Cyprian This done
wont to have more respect than so If His Majestie did say it there is Truth in the speech The error is yours only by mistaking what is meant by Loosing the Holy Ghost For a Particular Church may be said to loose the Holy Ghost two wayes or in two Degrees 1. The one when it looses such speciall assistance of that Blessed Spirit as preserves it from all dangerous Errors and sinnes and the temporall punishment which is due unto them And in this sense the Greeke Church did perhaps loose the Holy Ghost for they erred against Him they sinned against God And for this or other sinnes they were delivered into another Babylonish Captivity under the Turke in which they yet are and from which God in his mercy deliver them But this is rather to be called an Error circa Spiritum Sanctum about the Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost then an error against the Holy Ghost 2. The other is when it looses not only this assistance but all assistance ad hoc to this that they may remaine any longer a true Church and so Corinth and Ephesus and divers other Churches have lost the Holy Ghost But in this sense the whole Greeke Church lost not the Holy Ghost For they continue a true Church in the maine substance to and at this day though erroneous in this Poynt which you mention and perhaps in some other too F. The Ladies friend not knowing what to answer called in the Bishop who sitting downe first excused himselfe as one unprovided and not much studied in Controversies and desiring that in Case he should faile yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of B. This is most true For I did indeed excuse § 6 my selfe and I had great reason so to doe And my Reason being grounded upon Modestie for the most part there I leave it Yet this it may be fit others should know that I had no information where the other Conferences brake off no instruction at all what should be the ground of this third Conference nor the full time of foure and twenty hourâ—…s to bethinke my selfe And this I take upon my Credit is most true whereas you make the sifting of these and the like Questions to the very Branne your daily work and came throughly furnished to the businesse and might so leade on the Controversie to what your selfe pleased and I was to follow as I could * De util Credendi c. 2. S. Augustine said once Scio me invalidum esse I know I am weake and yet he made good his Cause And so perhaps may I against you And in that I prefer'd the Cause before my particular credit that which I did was with modesty and according to Reason For there is no Reason the waight of this whole Cause should rest upon any one particular man And great Reason that the personall Defects of any man should presse himselfe but not the Cause Neither did I enter upon this Service out of any forwardnesse of my owne but commanded to it by Supreame Authority F. It having an hundred better Schollers to maintaine it than he To which I said there were a thousand better Schollers than I to maintaine the Catholike Cause B. In this I had never so poore a Conceit of the Protestants Cause as to thinke that they had § 7 but an hundred better than my selfe to maintaine it That which hath an hundred may have as many more as it pleases God to give and more than you And I shall ever bee glad that the Church of England which at this time if my memory reflect not amisse I named may have farre more able Defendants than my selfe I shall never envie them but rejoyce for Her And I make no Question but that if I had named a thousand you would have multiplied yours into ten Thousand for the Catholike Cause as you call it And this Confidence of yours hath ever beene fuller of noyse than Proofe But you proceed F. Then the Question about the Greeke Church being proposed I said as before That it had erred B. Then I thinke the Question about the § 8 Greeke Church was proposed But after you had with confidence enough not spared to say That what I would not acknowledge in this Cause you would wring and extort from me then indeed you said as before that it had erred And this no man denied But every Errour denies not Christ the Foundation or makes Christ denie it or thrust it from the Foundation F. The Bishop said That the Errour was not in Point Fundamentall B. I was not so peremptory My speech § 9 was That diverse Learned men and some of your owne were of opinion That as the Greeks expressed themselves it was a Question not simply Fundamentall I know and acknowledge that Errour of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne to be a grievous errour in Divinity And sure it would have grated the Foundation if they had so denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne as that they had made an inequality betweene the Persons But since their forme of speech is a Non ex Filio sed Spiritum Filii esse diâ—…imus Damascon L. 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et Patris per filium Ibid. That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Sonne and is the Spirit of the Sonne without making any difference in the Consubstantiality of the Persons I dare not denie them to bee a true Church for this though I confesse them an Erroneous Church in this Particular Now that diverse learned men were of Opinion That à Filio per Filium in the sense of the Greeke Church was but a Question in modo loquendi in manner of b Pluralitas in Uoce salvat â unitate in re non repugnat uniâ—…ati Fidei Durand Lib. 3. d. 25. q. 2. speech and therefore not Fundamentall is evident c Magist. 1. Sent. d. 11. D. Sane sciendum est quòd licet in praesenti Articulo a nobis Graeci verbo discordent tamen sensu non differunt c. Bandinus L. 1. de Trin. d. 11 Bonavent in 1 Sent. d. 11. A. 1. q. 1. §. 12. Licet Graecis infensissimus quùm dixit Graeces objicere curiâ—…sitatem Romanis addendo I ilioque Quia sine hujus Articuli professione salus er at non Respondet negando salutem esse sed dicit tantùm opportunam fuisse Determinationem propter periculum Et postea §. 15. Sunt qui volunt sustinere opinionem Graecorum Latinorum distinguendo duplicem modum Procedendi Sed fortè si duo sapientes unus Graecus alter Latinus uterque verus amator Veritatis non propriae dictionis c. de hac visa contrarietate disquirerent pateret utique tandem ipsâ—…m Contrarietatem non esse veraciter realem sicut est Vocalis Scotus in 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. Antiquorum Graecorum à Latinis diserepantia in voce potiùs est modo
to feede when he is in and when he had fed to c S. Luk. 22. 35. Confirme and in all these not to erre and faile in his Ministration And is the Catholike Church in and over which he is to do all these great things quite left out of the Scripture Belike the Holy Ghost was carefull to give him his power Yes in any case but left the assigning of his great Cure the Catholike Church to Tradition And it were well for him if he could so prescribe for what he now Claymes But what if after all this M. Rogers there sayes no such thing As in truth he doth not His words are d Rogers in Art Eccle. Angl. Art 3. All Christians acknowledge He descended but in the interpretation of the Article there is not that consent that were to be wished What is this to the Church of England more then others And againe e Ibid. Till we know the native and undoubted sense of this Article is M. Rogers We the Church of England or rather his and some others Iudgement in the Church of England Now here A. C. will have somewhat againe to say though God knowes 't is to little purpose 'T is A. C. p. 47. that the Iesuite urged M. Roger's Booke because it was set out by Publike Authority And because the Booke beares the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England A. C. may undoubtedly urge M. Rogers if he please But he ought not to say that his Opinion is the Doctrine of the Church of England for neither of the Reasons by him expressed First not because his Booke was publikely allowed For many Bookes among them as well as among us have beene Printed by publike Authority as containing nothing in them contrary to Faith and good manners and yet containing many things in them of Opinion only or private Iudgement which yet is farre from the avowed Positive Doctrine of the Church the Church having as yet determined neither way by open Declaration upon the words or things controverted And this is more frequent among their Schoolemen then among any of our Controversers as is well knowne Nor secondly because his Booke beares the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England For suppose the worst and say M. Rogers thought a little too well of his owne paines and gave his Booke too high a Title is his private Iudgement therefore to be accounted the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England Surely no No more then I should say every thing said by * Angelici D. S. Tho. Summa Thomas or †Celebratissimi Patris Dom. Bonaventurae Doctoris Seraphici in 3. L. Sent. Disputata Bonaventure is Angelicall or Seraphicall Doctrine because one of these is stiled in the Church of Rome Seraphicall and the other Angelicall Doctor And yet their workes are Printed by Publike Authority and that Title given them Yea but our private Authors saith A. C. are not allowed for ought I know in such a like sorte to expresse A. C. p. 47. our Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to Question Here are two Limitations which will goe farre to bring A. C. off whatsoever I shall say against him For first let me instance in any private man that takes as much upon him as M. Rogers doth he will say he knew it not his Assertion here being no other then for ought he knowes Secondly If he be unwilling to acknowledge so much yet he will answer 't is not just in such a like sort as M. Rogers doth it that is perhaps it is not the very Title of his Booke But well then Is there never a Private man allowed in the Church of Rome to expresse your Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to question What not in any matter Were not Vega and Soto two private men Is it not a mâ—…tter subject to Question to great Question in these Dayes Whether a man may be certaine of his Salvation câ—…rtitudine fidei by the certainty of Faith Doth nâ—…t * Bellar. Lib. 3. de Justificat c. 1. 14. Bellarmine make it a Controversie And is it not a part of your Catholike Faith if it be determined in the †Huic Concilio Catholici omnes ingenia sua judicia sponte subjiciunt Bellar. 3. de Justif. c. 3. §. Sed Concilii Tridâ—…i Councell of Trent And yet these two great Friers of their time Dominicus Soto and Andreas Vega a Hist. Concil Trident. Lib. 2. p. 245. Edit Lat. Leidae 1622. were of contrary Opinions and both of them challenged the Decree of the Councell and so consequently your Catholike Faith to be as each of them concluded and both of them wrote Bookes to maintaine their Opinions and both of their Bookes were published by Authority And therefore I think 't is allowed in the Church of Rome to private men to expresse your Catholike Doctrine and in a matter subject to Question And therefore also if another man in the Church of England should be of a contrary Opinion to M. Rogers and declare it under the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England this were no more then Soto and Vega did in the Church of Rome And I for my part cannot but wonder A. C. should not know it A. C. p. 47. For he sayes that for ought he knowes Private men are not allowed so to expresse their Catholike Doctrine And in the same Question both Catharinus and Bellarmine b Bellar. L. 3. de Iustif. c. 3. take on them to expresse your Catholike Faith the one differing from the other almost as much as Soto and Vega and perhaps in some respect more F. But if M. Rogers be only a private man in what Book may we finde the Protestants publike Doctrine The Bishop answered That to the Booke of Articles they were all sworne B. What Was I so ignorant to say The Articles § 14 of the Church of England were the Publike Doctrine of all the Protestants Or that all Protestants were sworne to the Articles of England as this speech seems to imply Sure I was not Was not the immediate speech before of the Church of England And how comes the Subject of the Speech to be varied in the next lines Nor yet speake I this as if other Protestants did not agree with the Church of England in the chiefest Doctrines and in the maine Exceptions which they joyntly take against the Romane Church as appeares by their severall Confessions But if A. C. will say as he doth that because there was speech before of the Church of A. C. p. 47. England the Iesuite understood mee in a limited sense and meant only the Protestants of the English Church Bee it so ther 's no great harme done †And therfore A. C. needs not make such a Noise about it as he doth p. 48 but this that the Iesuite offers to enclose me too much For I did not
say that the Booke of Articles only was the Continent of the Church of Englands publike Doctrine She is not so narrow nor hath she purpose to exclude any thing which she acknowledges hers nor doth she wittingly permit any Crossing of her publike Declarations yet she is not such a shrew to her Children as to deny her Blessing or Denounce an Anathema against them if some peaceably dissent in some Particulars remoter from the Foundation as your owne Schoole men differ And if the Church of Rome since she grew to her greatnesse had not beene so fierce in this Course and too particular in Determining too many things and making them matters of Necessary Beliefe which had gone for many hundreds of years before only for things of Pious Opinion Christendome I perswade my selfe had beene in happier peace at this Day then I doubt we shall ever live to see it Well but A. C. will proove the Church of England a Shrew and such a Shrew For in her Booke * Can. 5. of Canons A. C. p. 48. She Excommunicates every man who shall hold any thing contrary to any part of the said Articles So A. C. But surely these are not the very words of the Canon nor perhaps the sense Not the Words for they are Whosoever shall affirme that the Articles are in any part superstitious or erroneous c. And perhaps not the sense For it is one thing for a man to hold an Opinion privately within himselfe and another thing boldly and publikely to affirme it And againe 't is one thing to hold contrary to some part of an Article which perhaps may bee but in the manner of Expression and another thing positively to affirme that the Articles in any part of them are superstitious and erroneous But this is not the Maine of the Businesse For though the Church of England Denounce Excommunication as is a Can. 5. before expressed Yet She comes farre short of the Church of Rome's severity whose Anathema's are not only for 39. Articles but for very many more * Concil Trident. above one hundred in matter of Doctrine and that in many Poynts as farre remote from the Foundation though to the farre greater Rack of mens Consciences they must be all made Fundamentall if that Church have once Determined them whereas the Church A. C. p. 45. of England never declared That every one of her Articles are Fundamentall in the Faith For 't is one thing to say No one of them is superstitious or erroneous And quite another to say Every one of them is fundamental and that in every part of it to all mens Beliefe Besides the Church of England prescribes only to her owne Children and by those Articles provides but for her owne peaceable Consent in those Doctrines of Truth But the Church of Rome severely imposes her Doctrine upon the whole World under paine of Damnation F. And that the Scriptures only not any unwritten Tradition was the Foundation of their Faith B. The Church of England grounded her Positive § 15 Articles upon Scripture and her Negative doe refute there where the thing affirmed by you is not affirmed by Scripture nor directly to be concluded out of it And here not the Church of England only but all Protestants agree most truly and most strongly in this That the Scripture is sufficient to salvation and containes in it all things necessary to it The Fathers a S. Basil. de verâ piâ fide Manifesta defectio Fidei est importare quicquam eorum quae scripta non sunt S. Hilar. L. 2. ad Const. Aug. Fidem tantùm secundum ca quae scripta sunt desider autem hoc qui repudiat Antichristus est qui simulat Anathema est S. Aug. L. 2. de Doctr. Christian. c. 9. In iis quae apertè in Scriptura posita sunt inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent sidem mâ—…resque vivendi And to this place Bellarm L. 4. de verbo Dei non scripto c. 11. saith that S. Augustine speakes de illis Dogmatibus quae necestaria sunt omnibus simpliciter of those Points of faith which are necessary simply for all men So farre then he grants the question And that you may know it fell not from him on the suddaine he had said as much before in the beginning of the same Chapter and here he confirmes it againe are plaine the b Sâ—…tus Proleg in sent q. 2. Scriptura sufficienter continet Doctrinam necessariam Uiatori Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. A. 10. ad 1. In Doctrina Christi Apostolorum veritas fidei est suffi ientèr explicata And he speakes there of the written Word Schoolemen not strangers in it And have not we reason then to account it as it is The Foundation of our Faith And c Scripturam Fundamentum esse columnam Fidei fatemur in suo genere i. can genere Testimoniorum in materia Credendorum Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. in fine Stapleton himselfe though an angry Opposite confesses That the Scripture is in some sort the Foundation of Faith that is in the nature of Testimony and in the matter or thing to be believed And if the Scripture be the Foundation to which we are to goe for witnesse if there be Doubt about the Faith and in which we are to find the thing that is to be believed as necessary in the Faith we never did nor never will refuse any Tradition that is Universall and Apostolike for the better Exposition of the Scripture nor any Definition of the Church in which she goes to the Scripture for what she teaches and thrusts nothing as Fundamentall in the Faith upon the world but what the Scripture fundamentally makes materiam Credendorum the substance of that which is so to be believed whether immediatly and expresly in words or more remotely till a cleare and full Deduction draw it out Against the beginning of this Paragraph A. C. excepts And first he sayes 'T is true that the Church of England grounded her Positive Articles upon Scripture A. C. p. 48. That is 't is true if themselves may be competent Iudges in their owne Cause But this by the leave of A. C. is true without making our selves Iudges in our owne Cause For that all the Positive Articles of the present Church of England are grounded upon Scripture we are content to be judged by the joynt and constant Beliefe of the Fathers which lived within the first foure or five hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was at the best and by the Councels held within those times and to submit to them in all those Points of Doctrine Therefore we desire not to be Iudges in our owne Cause And if any whom A. C. cals a Novellist can truly say and maintaine this he will quickly proove himselfe no Novellist And for the Negative Articles they refute where the thing affirmed by you is either not affirmed in
Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 5. c. yet they are in themselves much more sure and infallible then they For they proceed immediately from God that Heavenly Wisdome which being the fountaine of ours must needs infinitely precede ours both in Nature and excellence He that teacheth man knowledge shall not he know †Psal. 94. 10. Our old English Translation reads it Shall not he punish That is shall not he know when and why and how to punish Psal. 94. And therefore though wee reach not the Order of their Deductions nor can in this life come to the vision of them yet wee yeeld as full and firme Assent not onely to the Articles but to all the Things rightly deduced from them as wee doe to the most evident Principles of Naturall Reason This Assent is called Faith And Faith being of things not seene Heb. 11. Heb. 11. 1. a Sâ—…t Ratio convincens propter cam 〈◊〉 alias non crediturus tollitur 〈◊〉 siâ—…i Bâ—…l 3. D. 25. q. unic sine Non est dicendus credere cujus judicium sulagitur aut cogitur c. Stapl. Tâ—…at contra Wintaker cap. 6. p. 64. would quite loose its honour nay it selfe if it met with sufficient Grounds in Naturall Reason whereon to stay it selfe For Faith is a mixed Act of the Will and the Vnderstanding and the b Vides noâ—… sit in nobis nisi volentibus Tolâ—… in S. 〈◊〉 16. Annot. 33. Et qui voluerunt â—…runt S. Aug. Serm. 60. dâ—…rb Dom. 〈◊〉 5. Fides Actus est non schus â—…ctus sed etiam Voluntatis quae qinon potest Imo magis Voluntatis quam Intelle us quatenus illa Operationis prinâ—…ium est Assensum qui pâ—…oprie Actus fiâ—…i est sola clicit Nec ab 〈◊〉 Voluntas sed à Voluntate 〈◊〉 Actu sidei determinatur Staâ—… I. Tâ—…lic cont Whitak c. 6. p. 64. Câ—…e enim est Actus Intellectus detâ—…â—…i â—…unum ex Imperio Voluntatis 〈◊〉 2. 2. q. 4. Aâ—…c Non potest dari aliquis sidei quinunque ille sit non qui in suis Causis mediatè 〈◊〉 medâ—…e b actu Voluntatis Alm. in 3. Sâ—…t D. 24. 〈◊〉 6. Dub. 4. A 〈◊〉 Aug. sayes Fidei locum esse Cor. Tâ—… 52. in S. Ioh. Where the Heart is put to the whole soule which equally comprehends both the Will and the Vndeâ—… ing And so doth Biel also in 3. Sunt D. 25. q unic Art 1. F. Will inclines the Vnderstanding to yeeld full approbation to that whereof it sees not full proofe Not but that there is most full proofe of them but because the maine Grounds which prove them are concealed from our view and folded up in the unrevealed Counsell of God God in Christ resolving to bring mankinde to their last happinesse by Faith and not by knowledge that so the weakest among men may have their way to blessednesse open And certaine it is that many weak men believe themselves into Heaven and many over-knowing Christians loose their way thither while they will believe no more then they can clearely know In which pride and vanity of theirs they are left and have these things hid from them S. Matth. 11. S. Mat. 11. 25. Fourthly That the Credit of the Scripture the Pun. 4. Booke in which the Principles of Faith are written as of other writings also depends not upon the subservient Inducing Cause that leads us to the first knowledge of the Authour which leader here is the Church but upon the Author himself and the Opinion we have of his sufficiency which here is the Holy Spirit of God whose Pen-men the Prophets and Apostles were And therfore the Mysteries of Divinity contained in this Booke As the Incarnation of our Saviour The Resurrection of the dead and the like cannot finally bee resolved into the sole Testimony of the Church who is but a Subservient Cause to lead to the knowledge of the Authour but into the wisedome and Sufficiency of the Authour who being Omnipotent and Omniscient must needs bee Infallible Fiftly That the Assurance we have of the Pen-men of the Scriptures the Holy Prophets and Apostles Pun. 5. is as great as any can be had of any Humane Authours of like Antiquity For it is morally as evident to any Pagan that S. Matthew and S. Paul writ the Gospell and Epistles which beare their Names as that Cicero or Seneca wrote theirs But that the Apostles were divinely inspired whilst they writ them and that they are the very Word of God expressed by them this hath ever beene a matter of Faith in the Church and was so even while the Apostles themselves a The Apostles indeed they knew for they had cleare Revelation They to whom they preached might believe but they could not know without the like Revelation So S. Ioh. 19 35. He that saw knowes that he sayes true that you which saw not might believe Deus in Prophetis sic in Apostolis quos immediatè illuminabat causabat evidentiam Iaco Aimain in 3. Sent. Dis. 24. q. unic á. Conclus 6. But for the residue of men 't is no more but as Thomas hath it Oportet quod credatur Authoritati eorum quibus Revelatio facta est Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad 8. lived and was never a matter of Evidence and Knowledge at least as Knowledge is opposed to Faith Nor could it at any time then bee more Demonstratively prooved then now I say not scientificè not Demonstratively For were the Apostles living and should they tell us that they spake and writ the very Oracles of God yet this were but their owne Testimony of themselves and so not alone able to enforce Beliefe on others And for their Miracles though they were very Great Inducements of Beliefe yet were neither they Evident and Convincing Proofes b A on est evidens vel ista esse vera miracula vel ista fieri ad illam Veritatem comprobandam Iâ—… Almain in 3. Sent. D. 24. q. uniâ—… Concl. 6. Therefore the Miracles which Christ and his Apostles did were fully sufficient to beget Faith to assent but not Evidence to Convince alone and of themselves Both because There may bee counterfeit Miracles And because true ones are neither c Cautos nos fecit Sponsus quia Miraculis decipi non debemus S. Aug. T. 13. in S. â—…oh And he that sayes we ought not to be deceived acknowledges that we may be deceived even by Miracles And Arguments which can deceive are not sufficient to Convince Though they be sometimes too full of efficacy to pervert And so plainly Almain out of Ocham Nunquam acquiritur Evidentia per Medium quod de se generat falsum assensum sunt verum la. Alma in 3 Sent. Di. 24. q unic Conc. 6. And therfore that Learned Romane Catholik who tels us the Apostles Miracles made it evident that their doctrine was true and Divine went too farre Credible they made
writ downe my words in fresh memory and upon speciall notice taken of the Passage and that I did say either Iâ—…dem or aequipollentibus verbis either in these or equivalent words That the Protestants did make the Râ—…nt or Division from the Romane Church What did the Iesuite set downe my words in fresh memory and upon speciall notice taken and were they so few as these The Protestants did make the Schisme and yet was his memory so short that he cannot tell whether I uttered this iisdem or aequipollentibus verbis Well I would A. C. and his Fellowes would leave this Art of theirs and in Conferences which * A. C. p. 57. they are so ready to call for impose no more upon other men then they utter And you may observe too that after all this full Assertion that I spake this iisdem or aequipollentibus verbis A. C. concludes thus The Iesuite tooke speciall notice in fresh memory and is sure he related at A. C. p. 55. least in sense just as it was uttâ—…red What 's this At least in sense jâ—…st as it was uttered Do not these two Enterfeire and shew the Iesuite to be upon his shuffling pace For if it were just as it was uttered then it was in the very forme of words too not in sense onely And if it were but At least in sense then when A. C. hath made the most of it it was not just as 't was uttered Besides at least in sense doth not tell us in whose sense it was For if A. C. meane the Iesuite's sense of it he may make what sense he pleases of his owne words but he must impose no sense of his upon my words But as he must leave my words to my selfe so when my words are uttered or written he must leave their sense either to me or to that genuine Construction which an Ingenuous Reader can make of them And what my words of Grant were I have before expressed and their sense too Not with my selfe That 's the next For A. C. sayes 't is truth and that the world knowes it that the A. C. p. 56. Protestants did depart from the Church of Rome and got the name of Protestants by protesting against it No A. C. by your leave this is not truth neither and therefore I had reason to be angry with my selfe had I granted it For first the Protestants did not depart For departure is voluntary so was not theirs I say not theirs taking their whole Body and Cause together For that some among them were peevish and some ignorantly zealous is neither to be doubted nor is there Danger in confessing it Your Body is not so perfect I wot well but that many amongst you are as pettish and as ignorantly zealous as any of Ours You must not suffer for these nor We for those nor should the Church of Christ for either Next the Protestants did not get that Name by Protesting against the Church of Rome but by Protesting and that when nothing else would serve †Conventus suit Ordinum Imperii Spirae Ibi Decretum factum est ut Edictum Wormatiense observaretur contra Novatores sic appellare placuit ut omnia in integrum restituantur sic nulla omnino Reformatio Contra hoc Edictum solennis fuit Protestatio Aprilis 16. An. Ch. 1529. Et hinc ortum pervulgatum illud Protestantium nomen Se. Calvis Chron. ad An. 1529. Thâ—…s Protestation therefore was not simply against the Romane Church but against the Edict which was for the restoring of all things to their former estate without any Râ—…formation against her Errours Superstitions Do you but remove them from the Church of Rome and our Protestation is ended and the Separation too Nor is Protestation it selfe such an unheard of thing in the very heart of Religion For the Sacraments both of the Old and New Testament are called by your owne Schoole Visible Signes protesting the Faith Now if the Sacraments be Protestantia Signes Protesting why may not men also and without all offence be called Protestants since by receiving the true Sacraments and by refusing them which are corrupted they doe but Protest the sincerity of their Faith against that Doctrinall Corruption which hath invaded the great Sacrament of the Eucharist and other Parts of Religion Especially since they are men a Quibus homo fidem suam protestaretur Tho. p. 3. q. 61. A. 3. 4. C. which must protest their Faith by these visible Signes and Sacraments But A. C. goes on and will needs have it that the Protestants were the Cause of the Schisme For A. C. p. 56. saith he though the Church of Rome did thrust them from her by Excommunication yet they had first divided themselves by obstinate holding and teaching opinions contrary to the Romane Faith and Practice of the Church which to do S. Bernard thinks is Pride and S. Augustine Madnesse So then in his Opinion First Excommunication on their Part was not the Prime Cause of this Division but the holding and teaching of contrary Opinions Why but then in my Opinion That holding and teaching was not the Prime Cause neither but the Corruptions and Superstitions of Rome which forced many men to hold and teach the contrary So the Prime Cause was theirs still Secondly A. C s. words are very considerable For he charges the Protestants to be the Authours of the Schisme for obstinate holding and teaching Contrary Opinions To what I pray Why to the b I know Bellarm. quotes S. Ierome Sciro Romanam Fidem c. suprà §. 3. Nu. 9. But there S. Ierome doth not call it Fidem Romanam as if Fides Romana and Fides Catholica were convertible but he speakes of it in the Concrete Romana Fides i. Romanorum Fides qua laudata suit ab Apostolo c. Ro. 1. 8. S. Hieron Apol. 3. cont Ruffin That is that Faith which was then at Rome when S. Paul commended it But the Apostles commending of it in the Romanes at one time passes no deed of Assurance that it shall continue worthy of Commendations among the Romans through all tâ—…mes Romane Faith To the Romane Faith It was wont to be the Christian Faith to which contrary Opinions were so dangerous to the Maintainers But all 's Romane now with A. C. and the Iesuite And then to countenance the Businesse S. Bernard and S. Augustine are brought in whereas neither of them speak of the Romane and S. Bernard perhaps neither of the Catholike nor the Romane but of a Particular Church or Congregation Or if he speake of the Catholike of the Romane certainly he doth not His words are Quae major superbia c. What greater pride then that one man should preferre his judgement before the whole Congregation of all the Christian Churches in the world So A. C. as out of Saint Bernard †Quae major superbia quà m ut unus homo toti Congregationi judicium
say it then I do say it now and most true it is That it was ill done of those who e're they were that first made the separation But then A. C must not understand me of Actuall only but of Causall separation For as I said * §. 21. Nu. 1. before the Schisme is theirs whose the Cause of it is And he makes the Separation that gives the first just Cause of it not he that makes an Actuall Separation upon a just Cause preceding And this is so evident a Truth that A C. cannot deny it for he sayes 't is most true Neither can he deny it in this A. C. p. 56. sense in which I have expressed it For his very Assertion against us though false is in these Termes That we gave the first Cause Therefore he must meane it of Causall not of Actuall Separation only But then A. C. goes on and tells us That after this Breach was made yet the Church of Rome was so kinde A. C. p. 57. and carefull to seeke the Protestants that She invited them publikely with safe conduct to Rome to a Generall Councell freely to speak what they could for themselves Indeed I thinke the Church of Rome did carefully seeke the Protestants But I doubt it was to bring them within their Net And she invited them to Rome A very safe place if you marke it for them to come to Iust as the Lion in the a Olim quod vulpes aegroto cauta Leoni Respondit referam Quia me vestigia terrent Omnia te adversum spectantia nulla retrorsùm Apologue invited the Fox to his own Den. Horat. L. 1. Ep. 1. ex Aesop. Yea but there was safe Conduct offered too Yes Conduct perhaps but not safe or safe perhaps for going thither but none for coÌ„ming thence Vestigia nulla retrorsùm Yea but it should have been to a Generall Councell Perhaps so But was the Conduct safe that was given for comming to a Councell which they cal Generall to some others before them No sure b Though I cannot justifie all which these two men said yet safe Conduct being given that Publike Faith ought not to have beene violated Iohn Hus and Jerome of Prage burnt for all their safe conduct And so long as c Affirmant uno consensu omnes Catholici debere Haereticis servari fidem sive salvus conductus concedatur Iure communi sive speciali Bec. Dis. Theol. de Fide Haereticis servandâ c. 12. §. 5. But for al this Brag of Affirmant uno consensu omnes Catholici Becanus shuffles pitifully to defend the Councell of Constance For thus he argues Fides non est violata Hussio Non à Patribus Illi enim fidem non dederunt Non ab Imperatore Sigismundo Ille enim dedit fidem sed non violavit Ibid. §. 7. But all men know that the Emperor was used by the Fathers at Constance to bring Husse thither Sigismundus Hussum Constantiam vocat missis Literis publicâ fide cavet mense Octob. Ann. 1414. c. Edit in 160. Et etiamsi Primò graviter tulit Hussi in carcerationem tamen cum dicerent Fidem Haereticis non esse servandam non modo remisit Offensionem sed primus accrbè in eum pronunciav it Ibid. This is a mockery And Becanus his Argument is easily returned upon himselfe For if the Fathers did it in cunning that the Emperor should give safe conduct which themselves meant not to keepe then they broke faith And if the Emperor knew they would not keepe it then he himselfe broke faith in giving a safe conduct which he knew to be invalid And as easie it is to answer what Becanus addes to save that Councels Act could I stay upon it Fides Haereticis data servanda non est sicut nec Tyrannis Piratis câ—…teris publicis praedonibus c. Simanca Jnstit Tit. 46. §. 51. And although Becanus in the place above cited §. 13. confidently denyes that the Fathers at Constance decreed No faith to be kept with Hereticks and cites the words of the Councell Sess. 19. yet there the very words themselves have it thus Posse Concilium cos punire c. etiamsi de salvo conductu consisi ad locum venâ—…rint Judicii c. And much more plainly Simanca Just. Tit. 46. §. 52. Iureigitur Haeretici quidam gravissimo Concilii Constantiensis Judicio legitimâ flammâ concremati sunt quamvis promiâ—…sa illis securitas fuisset So they are not onely Protestants which charge the Councell of Constance with this Nor can Becanus say as â—…e doth Affirmant uno consensu omnes Catholici sidem Hareticis servandam esse For Simanca denyes it And hee quotes others for it which A. C. would be loth should not be accounted Catholikes But how faithfully Simanca sayes the one or Becanus the other let them take it betweene them and the Reader be judge In the meane time the very Title of the Canon of the Councell of Constance Sess. 19. is this Quodnon obstantibus salvis conductibus Jmperatoris Regum c. possit per Indicem competentem de Haeretica pâ—…te inquiri the IeIesuites write and maintaine That Faith given is not to be kept with Heretickes And the Church of Rome leaves this lewd Doctrine uncensured as it hath hitherto done and no exception put in of force and violence A. C shall pardon us that we come not to Rome nor within the reach of Romane Power what freedome of Speech soever bee promised us For to what end Freedome of Speech on their part d For so much A. C. confesses p. 45. For if they should give way to the altering of one then why not of another and another and so of al And the Trent Fathers in a great point of Doctrine being amazed and not knowing what to answer to a Bishop of their owne yet were resolved not to part with their common error Certum tamen er at Doctrinam eam non probare sed quam antea didicissent firmitèr tenere c. Hist. Con. Trid. L. 2. p. 277. Edit Leyd 1612. since they are resolved to alter nothing And to what end Freedome of speech on our part if after speech hath beene free life shall not And yet for all this A. C. makes no doubt but that the Romane Church is so farre from being Cause of the continuance A. C. p. 57. of the Schisme or hinderance of the Re-union that it would yet give a free hearing with most ample safe Conduct if any hope might be given that the Protestants would sincerely seeke nothing but Truth and Peace Truly A. C. is very Resolute for the Romane Church yet how far he may undertake for it I cannot tell But for my part I am of the same Opinion for the continuing of the Schisme that I was for the making of it That is that it is ill very ill done of those whoever they be Papists or Protestants
perpetuum Scripturâ testante errabit Quòd Rom. Pontifex si Canonic è suerit ordinatus meritis B. Petri indubit an t èr efficitur sanctus Quòd à fidelitate Iniquorum subditos potest absolvere Gregory the seventh in the great power which he now uses in and over these parts of the ChristiaÌ„ world Thirdly A. C. knowing 't is not enough to say this That the Pope is Pastour of the whole Church labours to prove it And first he tels us that Irenaeus intimates so much but he doth not tell us where And he is ' much scanted of Ancient Proofe if Irenaeus stand alone Besides Irenaeus was a Bishop of the Gallicane Church and a very unlikely man to Captivate the Liberty of that Church under the more powerfull Principality of Rome And how can we have better evidence of his Iudgement touching that Principality then the Actions of his Life When Pope Victor Excommunicated the Asian Churches 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 †Euseb. L. 5. c. 25. all at a blow was not Irenaeus the Chiefe man that reprehended him for it A very unmeet and undutifull thing sure it had been in Irenaeus in deeds to taxe him of rashnesse and inconsideratenesse whom in words A. C. would have to be acknowledged by him The Supreme and Infallible Pastour of the Vniversall Church But the Place of Irenaeus which A. C. meanes I thinke is this whâ—…â—…he uses these words indeed but short of A. C s. sense of it †Adhanc Ecclesiam propter potentiorem Principalitatem necesse est â—…mnem convenire Ecclesiam 1. e. eos qui sunt undique sideles In quá semper ab his qui sunt undique conservata est ea quae est ab Apostolu Traditio Iren. L. 3. c. 3. To this Church he speakes of Rome propter potentiorem principalitatem for the more powerfull Principality of it 't is necessary that every Church that is the faithfull undique round about should have recourse Should have recourse so A. C. translates it And what doth this availe him A. C. p. 58. Very great reason was there in Irenaeus his time That upon any Difference arising in the Faith omnes undique Fideles all the Faithfull or if you will all the Churches round about should have recourse that is resort to Rome being the Imperiall City and so a Church of more powerfull Principality then any other at that time in those parts of the world Well Will this exalt Rome to be the Head of the Church Vniversall What if the States and Policies of the world be much changed since and this Conveniâ—…ncy of resorting to Rome be quite ceased Then is not Rome devested of her more powerfull Principality But the meaning of A C. is We must so have recourse to Rome as to submit our Faith to hers And then not onely in Irenaeus his time but through all times reforme Our selves by her Rule That is all the Faithfull not undique round about but ubique every where must agree with Rome in point of Faith This he meanes and Rome may thank him for it But this Irenaeus saith not nor will his words beare it nor durst A C. therfore construe him so but was content to smooth it over with this ambiguous phrase of having recourse to Rome Yet this is a place as much stood upon by them as any other in all Antiquity And should I grant them their owne sense That all the faithfull everywhere must agree with Rome which I may give but can never grant yet were not this saying any whit prejudiciall to us now For first here 's a powerfull Principality ascribed to the Church of Rome And that no man of learning doubts but the Church of Rome had within its owne Patriarchate and Iurisdiction and that was very large containing a Ed. Brierwood of the Iurisdiction and Limits of the Patriarchs in the time of the Nicen Councel Ad. Qu. 1. M. S. all the Provinces in the Diocesse of Italy in the old sense of the word Diocesse which Provinces the Lawyers and others terme Suburbicarias There were ten of them The three Ilands Sicily Corsica and Sardinia and the other seven upon the firme land of Italie And this I take it is plaine in Ruffinus For he living shortly after the Nicene Councell as he did and being of Italy as he was he might very well know the Bounds of that Patriarchs Iurisdiction as it was then practised b Apud Alexandriam ut in urbe Româ vetusta consuetudo servetur ut ille Aegypti ut hic SuburbicariarnÌ„ Ecclesiarum selicitudinem gerat Russin L. 1. Eccles. Hist. c. 6. And he sayes expresly That according to the old Custome the Romane Patriarchs Charge was confined within the Limits of the Suburbicarian Churches To avoid the force of this Testimony c Peron L. 2. of his Reply c. 6. Cardinall Peron layes load upon Ruffinus For he charges him with Passion Ignorance and Rashnesse And one peece of his Ignorance is That hee hath ill translated the Canon of the Councell of Nice Now be that as it may I neither do nor can approve his Translation of that Canon nor can it be easily proved that he purposely intended a Translation All that I urge is that Ruffinus living in that time and Place was very like well to know and understand the Limits and Bounds of that Patriarchate of Rome in which hee lived Secondly heres That it had potentiorem a more powerfull Principality then other Churches had And that the Protestants grant too and that not onely because the Romane Prelate was Ordine primus first in Order and Degree which some One must be to avoid Confusion †Quia cùm Orientales Gracae Ecclesiae Afrcanae etiam multis inter se Opinionum dissentionibus 〈◊〉 haec sedatior aliis minùs turbulenta fuerit Calv. L. 4. Justit c. 6. §. 16. But also because the Romane Sea had wonne a great deale of Credit and gained a great deale of Power to it selfe in Church Assaires Because while the Greeke yea and the African Châ—…rches too were turbulent and distracted with many and dangerous Opinions the Church of Rome all that while and a good while after Irenaeus too was more calme and constant to the Truth Thirdly here 's a Necessity say they required That every Church that is the faithfull which are every where agree with that Church But what simply with that Church what ever it doe or believe No nothing lesse For Irenaeus addes with that Church in quâ in which is conserved that Tradition which was delivered by the Apostles And God forbid but it should be necessary for all Churches and all the faithfull to agree with that Ancient Apostolike Church in all those Things in which it keepes to the Doctrine and Discipline delivered by the Apostles In Irenaeus his time it kept these better then any other Church and by this in part obtained potentiorem Principalitate a Greater
of all doubt neither First because many Learned men have challenged many Popes for teaching Heresy and that 's against the true Faith And that which so many Learned Men have affirmed is not out of all doubt Or if it be why does Bellarmine take so much paines to confute and disproove them as †Bellar. L. 4. de Ro. Pont. c. 8. he doth Secondly because Christ obtained of his Father every thing that he prayed for if he prayed for it absolutely and not under a Condition Father I know thou hearest me alwayes S. Iohn 11. Now Christ here prayed absolutely for S. Peter Therefore whatsoever he S. Iohn 11. 42. asked for him was granted Therfore if Christ intended his Successors as well as himselfe his Prayer was granted for his Successors as well as for himselfe But then if Bellarmine will tell us absolutely as he doth * Donum hoc loco Petro impetratum etiam ad Successores pertinet Bel. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. §. Quarto Donum hoc That the whole Gift obtained by this Prayer for S. Peter did belong to his Successors and then by and by after breake this Gift into two parts and call the first part into doubt whether it belongs to his Successors or no he cannot say the second part is out of all doubt For if there be reason of doubting the one there 's as much reason of doubting the other since they stand both on the same foot The Ualidity of Christ's Prayer for Saint Peter Yea but Christ charged S. Peter to governe and feede his whole flocke S. Iohn 21. Nay soft 'T is but his Sheepe S. Iohn 21. 15. and his Lambes and that every Apostle and every Apostles Successor hath charge to doc * Mat. 28. 29 S. Mat. 10. 17. The same power and charge is gâ—…en to them al. A. C. p. 58. S. Matth. 28. But over the whole Flocke 〈◊〉 find no one Apostle or Successor set And 't is a poore shift to say as A C doth That the Bishop of Rome is set over the whole Flocke because both over Lambes and Sheep For in every flock that is not of barren Weathers there are Lamâ—…s and Sheepe that is †And this seemes to me to allâ—…de to that of S. Paul 1 Corinth 3 2. and Heb. 5. 12. Some are sed with milke and some with stronger meat The Lambes with milke and the Sheepe with stronger meate But here A. C. followes Pope Hildebrand close who in the Case of the Emperor then asked this Question Quando Christus Ecclesiam suam Petro commisit dixit Pasce Oves meas excepitne Reges Plat. in vita Greg 7. And certainly Kings are not exempted from being fed by the Church But from being spoyled of their Kingdomes by any Church-men that they are weaker and stronger Christians not People and Pastors Subjects and Governouâ—…s as A. C. expounds it to bring the Necks of Princâ—…s under Romane Pride And if Kings bee meant yet then the command is Pasce feed them But Deponere or Occiure to depose or kill them is not Pascere in any sense Lanii id est non Pastori that 's the Butchers not the Shepheards part If a Sheep go astray never so far 't is not the Shepheards part to kill him at least if he doe non pascit dum occidit he doth not certainly feede while he killes And for the Close That the Bishop of Rome shall never refuse to feed and governe the whole stock in such sort as A. C. p. 58. that neither particular Man nor Church shall 〈◊〉 just Cause under pâ—…etence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make a Sâ—…paration from the whole Church By A. C s. favour this is meere begging of the Question He sayes the Pope shall ever governe the Whole Church so as that there shall be no just Cause given of a Separation And that is the very Thing which the Protestants charge upon him Namely that he hath governed if notthe Whole yet so much of the Church as he hath beene able to bring under his Power so as that he hath given too just Cause of the present continued separation And as the Corruptions in the Doctrine of Faith in the Church of Rome were the Cause of the first Separation so are they at this present day the Cause why the separation continues And further I for my part am cleare of Opinion that the Errours in the Doctrine of Faith which are charged upon the whole Church at least so much of the whole as in these parts of Europe hath beene kept under the Romane Iurisdiction have had their Originall and Continuance from this that so much of the Vniversall Church which indeed they account All hath forgotten her owne Liberty and submitted to the Romane Church and Bishop and so is in a manner forced to embrace all the Corruptions which the Particular Church of Rome hath contracted upon itself And being now not able to free her selfe from the Romane Iurisdiction is made to continue also in all her Corruptions And for the Protestants they have made no separation from the Generall Church properly so called for therein A. C. said well the Popes Administration can give no Cause to separate from that but A. C. p. 58. their Separation is only from the Church of Rome and such other Churches as by adhering to her have hazarded themselves and do now miscall themselves the Whole Catholike Church Nay even here the Protestants have not left the Church of Rome in her Essence but in her Errours not in the Things which Constitute a Church but only in such Abuses and Corruptions as work toward the Dissolution of a Church F. I also asked who ought to judge in this Case The B. said a Generall Councell B. And surely What greater or surer Iudgement you can have where sense of Scripture is doubted § 26 then a Generall Councell I doe not see Nor doe you doubt And A. C. grants it to be a most Competent A. C. p. 59. Iudge of all Controversies of Faith so that all Pastors be gathered together and in the Name of Christ and pray unanimously for the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost and make great and diligent search and examination of the Scriptures and other Grounds of Faith And then Decree what is to bee held for Divine Truth For then saith he 't is Firme and Insallible or els there is nothing firm upon earth As faire as this Passage seems and as freely as I have granted that a Generall Councell is the best Judge on earth where the sense of Scripture is doubted yet even in this passage there are some things Considerable As first when shall the Church hope for such a Generall Councell in which all Pastors shall be gathered together there was never any such Generall Councell yet nor doe I believe such can be had So that 's supposed in vaine and you might have learn'd this of *
Catholikes utterly condemne it And well they may For no man can affirme it but he shall make himselfe a scorne to all the Learned Men of Christendome whose Iudgements are not Captivated by Romane Power And for my owne part I am cleare of a Et mirum est quod Adversarii non asserant cum Impiccabilem Et credo assercrent nisi quotidiana Summorum PontificuÌ„ Opera ad credendnÌ„ Oppositum compellerent Almain de Author Eccles cap. 10. sine Jacobus Almain's Opinion And a great wonder it is to me That they which affirme the Pope cannot erre do not affirme likewise that he cannot sinne And I verily believe they would be bold enough to affirme it did not the daily Workes of the Popes compell them to believe the Contrary For very many of them have led lives quite Contrary to the Gospell of Christ. Nay such lives as no Epicurean Monster storied out to the world hath out-gone them in sensuality or other grosse Impiety if their owne Historians be true Take your choice of b Platina Onuphrius in Vitis eorum John the thirteenth about the yeare 966. Or of Sylvester the second about the yeare 999. Or John the eighteenth about the yeare 1003. Or Benedict the ninth about the yeare 1033. Or Boniface the eighth about the yeare 1294 Or Alexander the sixt about the yeare 1492. And yet these and their like must be infallible in their Dictates and Conclusions of Faith Do your owne believe it Surely no. For c Non enim credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem Papae Assentatorem ut ci tribuere hoc velit ut nec errare nec in Interpretatione SS Literarum ballucinari possit Alphons à Castro I. 1. Advers Hares c. 4. And the Glosse confesses it plainely in C. 24. q. 〈◊〉 C. A recta ergo Alphonsus à Castro tels us plainly That he doth not believe that any man can be so grosse and impudent a flatterer of the Pope as to attribute this unto him that he can neither erre nor mistake in expounding the Holy Scripture This comes home And therefore it may well be thought it hath taken a shrewd Purge For these words are Expresse in the Edition at Paris 1534. But they are not to be found in that at Colen 1539. Nor in that at Antwerp 1556. Nor in that at Paris 1571. a Parding his Detection of Errours against Iewell p. 64. Harding sayes indeed Alphonsus left it out of himselfe in the following Editions Well First Harding sayes this but proves it not so I may chuse whether I will believe him or no. Secondly bee it so that hee did that cannot helpe their Cause a whit For say hee did dislike the sharpnesse of the Phrase or ought els in this speech yet he alter'd not his judgment of the thing For in all these later Editions he speakes as home if not more then in the first and sayes Expresly * Coelestinus crravit non solùm ut privata persona sed ut Papa c. Alph. à Castro L. 1. adv Haeres c. 4. Ibid. That the Pope may erre not onely as a private person but as Pope And in difficult Cases he adds That the Pope ought to Consult Viros doctos men of Learning And this also was the Opinion of the Ancient Church of Christ concerning the Pope and his Infallibility For thus Liberius and he a Pope himselfe writes to Athanasius Brother Athanasius if you thinke in the presence of God and Christ as I doe I pray subscribe this Confession which is thought to be the true Faith of the Holy Catholike and Apostolike Church that we may be the more certaine that you thinke concerning the Faith as We doe †〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Liberius in Epist. ad Athanas. apud Athanas To. 1. p. 42. Edit Parisuns 1608. Et Edit Paris Latino-Grac 1627. Vt ego etiam persuasus sim inhaesitantèr That I also may be perswaded without all doubting of those things which you shall be pleased to Command me Now I would faine know if the Pope at that time were or did thinke himselfe Infallible how he should possibly be more certainly perswaded of any Truth belonging to the Faith by Athanasius his Concurring in judgment with him For nothing can make Infallibility more certaine then it is At least not the Concurring Iudgement that is Fallible as S. Athanasius was Beside the Pope Complemented exceeding low that would submit his unerring Iudgement to bee Commanded by Athanasius who hee well knew could Erre Againe in the Case of Easter which made too great a noyse in the Church of old a Post Aegyptiorum supputationes Alexandrinae Ecclesiae definitionem Episcopi quoque Romanae Ecclesiae per Literas plerique meam adhuc expectant sententiam quid existimem de die Paschae S. Ambros. L. 10. Epist. 83. Very many men called for S. Ambrose his Iudgement in that Point even after the Definition of the Church of Alexandria and the Bishop of Rome And this I presume they would not have done had they then conceived either the Pope or his Church Infallible And thus it continued downe till Lyra's time For he sayes expresly b Ex hoc patot quòd Ecclesia non consistit in hominibus ratione Potestatis vel Dignitatis Ecclesiasticae vel sacularis quid multi Principes summi Pontifices alii inferiores inventi sunt Apostat âsse à Fide c. Lyra in S. Matth. 16. 18. That many Popes as well as other Inferiours have not onely erred but even quite Apostatized from the Faith And yet now nothing but Infallibility will serve their turnes And sometimes they have not onely taken upon them to bee Infallible in Cathedrâ in their Chaire of Decision but also to Prophecie Infallibly out of the Scripture But Propheticall Scripture such as the Revelation is was too dangerous for men to meddle with which would bee carefull of their Credit in not Erring For it fell out in the time of Innocent the third and Honorius the third as c Ram. Pontifices ex S. Historiâ 〈◊〉 Qua mendaciâ—…sima esse exitus prob avâ—… Aventm Annaâ—… Boicrum L. 7. p. 529. Edit Basil. 1580. Aventine tels us That the then Popes assured the world that Destruction was at hand to Saracens Turks and Mahumetans which the Event shewed were notorious untruths And 't is remarkeable which happened Anno 1179. For then in a Councell held at Rome Pope Baron An. 1179. N. 13. Alexander the third Condemned Peter Lombard of Heresie And he lay under that Damnation for thirty and sixe yeares till Innocent the third restored him and condemned his Accusers Now Peter Lombard was then Condemned for some thing which hee had written about the humane Nature of our Saviour Christ. So here was a great Mystery of the Faith in hand something about the Incarnation And the Pope was in Cathedrâ and that in a Councell of three hundred Archbishops
and Bishops And in this Councell he condemned Peter Lombard and in him his Opinion about the Incarnation And therefore of necessity either Pope Alexander erred and that in Cathedrâ as Pope in Condemning him Or Pope Innocentius in restoring him The truth is Pope Alexander had more of Alexander the Great then of S. Peter in him And being accustomed to warlike Imployments he understood not that which Peter Lombard had written about this Mystery And so He and his Learned Assistants Condemned him unjustly And whereas you professe * Apud A. C. p. 68. after That you hold nothing against your Conscience I must ever wonder much how that can be true since you hold this of the Pope's Infallibility especially as being Propheticall in the Conclusion If this be true why doe you not lay all your strength together all of your whole Society and make this one Proposition evident For all Controversies about matters of Faith are ended and without any great trouble to the Christian World if you can but make this one Proposition good That the Pope is an Infallible Iudge Till then this shame will follow you infallibly and eternally That you should make the Pope a meere man Principium Fidei a Principle or Authour of Faith and make the mouth of him whom you call Christ's Vicar sole Iudge both of Christ's Word be it never so manifest and of his Church be she never so Learned and carefull of his Truth And for Conclusion of this Point I would faine know since this had beene so plaine so easie a way either to prevent all Divisions about the Faith or to end all Controversies did they arise why this briefe but most necessary Proposition The Bishop of Rome cannot erre in his Iudiciall Determinations concerning the Faith is not to be found either in Letter or sense in any Scripture in any Councell or in any Father of the Church for the full space of a thousand yeares and more after Christ For had this Proposition been true and then received in the Church how weake were all the Primitive Fathers to prescribe so many Rules and Cautions for avoydance of Heresie as Tertullian and Vincentius Lirinensis and others do and to indure such hard Conflicts as they did and with so many various Haereticks To see Christendome so rent and torne by some distempered Councels as that of Ariminum the second of Ephesus and others Nay to see the whole world almost become Arrian to the amazement of it selfe And yet all this time not so much as call in this Necessary Assistance of the Pope and let the world know That the Bishop of Rome was infallible that so in his Decision all differences might cease For either the Fathers of the Church Greeke as well as Latine knew this Proposition to be true That the Pope cannot Erre Iudicially in matters belonging to the Faith or they knew it not If you say they knew it not you charge them with a base and unworthy Ignorance no wayes like to over-cloud such and so many Learned men in a Matter so Necessary and of such infinite use to Christendome If you say they knew it and durst not deliver this Truth how can you charge them which durst die for Christ with such Cowardise towards his Church And if you say they knew it and with-held it from the Church you lay a most unjust Load upon those Charitable Soules which loved Christ too well to imprison any Truth but likely to make or keepe peace in his Church Catholike over the world But certainly as no Divine of worth did then dreame of any such Infallibility in Him so is it a meere dreame or worse of those Moderne Divines who affirme it now a The wilde Extent of the Popes Infallibility and Jurisdiction is a Mistake These are the Words of a Great Romane Catholike uttered to my selfe But I will spare his Name because he is living and I will not draw your Envy upon him And as b Puto quòd ipsi etiam rideant quum hoc audiunt tamen nifi hoc dicant quod erabescant si dicant non habent omninò quod dicant Sed quid ad nos Nâ—…ini invidemus Legant nobis hoc de Scripturis Sanctis credimus S. August de Vnit. Eccl. c. 17. S. Augustine somtimes spake of the Donatists and their absurd limiting the whole Christian Church to Africa onely so may I truly say of the Romanists confining all Christianity to the Romane Doctrine governed by the Pope's Infallibility I verily perswade my selfe That even the Jesuites themselves laugh at this And yet unlesse they say this which they cannot but blush while they say they have nothing at all to say But what 's this to us we envy no man If the Pope's Decision bee infallible Legant Let them read it to us out of the Holy Scripture and wee 'l believe it In the meane time take this with you that most certaine it is That the Pope hath no Infallibility to attend his Cathedrall Iudgement in Things belonging to the Faith For first besides the silence of Impartiall Antiquity Diverse c Papa non solùm Errore Personali sed Errore Iudiciali potest errare in Materia Fidei Almain L. de Author Eccles. c. 10. of your Owne confesse it yea and proove it too by sundry Instances Secondly there is a great Question among the Learned both Schoole-men and Controversers Whether the Pope comming to bee an Hereticke may bee Deposed And 't is learnedly disputed by d L. 2. de Rom. Font c. 30. Bellarmine The Opinions are different For the e Si sit à Fide de vius Dist. 40. Can. Si Papa Canon-Law saies expresly He may be judged and deposed by the Church in Case of Heresie †Iure Divino Papatu privatus est c. Io. de Turrecrem L. 4. Par. 2. c. 20. Et Bellar. L. 2. de Re. Pent. c. 30. Io. de Turrecremata is of Opinion That the Pope is to be deposed by the Church so soone as he becomes an Hereticke though as yet not a manifest one Because he is already deprived by Divine Right And recites another opinion That the Pope cannot be deposed though be fall into secret or manifest Heresie * Papa factus Hareticus non est ipso facte vel jure Divino vel humano depositus sed deponendus Cajet Tract de Author Papa Concilii c. 20. Cajetan thinkes that the Pope cannot be deposed but for a manifest Heresie and that then he is not deposed ipso facto but must be deposed by the Church †Papa Hareticus manifestus per se desinit esse Papa Caput c. Et tum potest ab Ecclesiâ Iudicari puniri Bellar. L. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 30. §. Est ergo quinta Bellarmines owne Opinion is That if the Pope become a manifest Hereticke he presently ceases to be Pope and Head of the Church and may then be Iudged and
punished by the Church Bellarmine hath disputed this very learnedly and at large and I will not fill this Discourse with another mans labours The use I shall make of it runnes through all these Opinions and through all alike And truly the very Question it selfe supposes that A Pope may be an Heretick For if he cannot be an Heretick why doe they question whether he can be Deposed for being One And if he can be one then whether he can be deposed by the Church Before he be manifest or not till after or neither before nor after or which way they will it comes all to one for my purpose For I question not here his Deposition for his Heresie but his Heresie And I hope none of these Learned men nor any other dare deny but that if the Pope can be an Hereticke he can erre For every Heresie is an errour and more For 't is an Errour ofttimes against the Errants knowledge but ever with the pertinacie of his Will Therefore out of all even your owne Grounds If the Pope can be an Heretick he can erre grosly he can erre wilfully And he that can so Erre cannot bee Infallible in his Iudgement private or publike For if he can be an Hereticke he can and doubtlesse will Iudge for his Heresie if the Church let him alone And you your selves maintaine his Deposition lawfull to prevent this I verily believe a Pighius L. 4. Ecclesiastica Hierarchia c. 8. Alb. Pighius foresaw this blow And therefore he is of Opinion That the Pope cannot become an Hereticke at all And though b Communis Opinio est in contrarium Bellar L. 2. de Ro. Pont. c. 30. §. 2. Bellarmine favour him so farre as to say his Opinion is probable yet he is so honest as to adde that the common Opinion of Divines is against him Nay though c L. 4. de Ro. Pont. cap. 11. he Labour hard to excuse Pope Honorius the first from the Heresie of the Monothelites and sayes that Pope Adrian was deceived who thought him one yet d Tamen non possumus negare quin Adrianus cum Romano Concilio imò tota Synodus octava Generalis senserit in causâ Haresis posse Rom. Pontificem judicari Adde quod esset miserrima Conditio Ecclesia si Lupum manifestè grassantem pro Pastore agnoscere cogeretur Bellar L. 2. de Ro. Pont. c 30. §. 5. He confesses That Pope Adrian the second with the Councell then held at Rome and the eight Generall Synod did thinke that the Pope might be judged in the Cause of Heresie And that the condition of the Church were most miserable if it should be constrained to acknowledge a Wolfe manifestly raging for her Shepheard And here againe I have a Question to aske whether you believe the eight Generall Councell or not If you believe it then you see the Pope can erre and so He not Infallible If you believe it not then in your Iudgement that Generall Councell erres and so that not Infallible Thirdly It is altogether in vaine and to no use that the Pope should be Infallible and that according to your owne Principles Now God and Nature make nothing in vaine Therefore either the Pope is not Infallible or at least God never made him so That the Infallibility of the Pope had he any in him is altogether vaine and uselesse is manifest For if it be of any use 't is for the setling of Truth and Peace in the Church in all times of her Distraction But neither the Church nor any member of it can make any use of the Popes Infallibility that way Therefore it is of no use or benefit at all And this also is as manifest as the rest For before the Church or any particular man can make any use of this Infallibility to settle him and his Conscience hee must either Know or Believe that the Pope is Infallible But a man can neither Know nor Believe it And first for Beliefe For if the Church or any Christian man can believe it he must believe it either by Divine or by Humane Faith Divine Faith cannot be had of it For as is before prooved it hath no Ground in the written Word of God Nay to follow you closer it was never delivered by any Tradition of the Catholike Church And for Humane Faith no Rationall man can possibly believe having no Word of God to over-rule his Vnderstanding that he which is Fallible in the meanes as a Staple Relect. cont 4. q. 2. Notab 4. your selves confesse the Pope is can possibly be Infallible in the Conclusion And were it so that a Rationall man could have Humane Faith of this Infallibility yet that neither is nor ever can be sufficient to make the Pope Infallible No more then my strong Beliefe of another mans Honesty can make him an Honest man if he be not so Now secondly for Knowledge And that is altogether impossible too that either the Church or any Member of the Church should ever know that the Pope is Infallible And this I shall make evident also out of your owne Principles For your b Omnia Sacramenta tribus persiciuntur c. Decret Eugenii 4 in Concil Fleren Councell of Florence had told us That three things are necessary to every Sacrament the Matter the Forme of the Sacrament And the Intention of the Priest which Administers it that he intends to do as the Church doth Your c Con. Trid. Ses. 7. Can. 1. Councell of Trent confirmes it for the Intention of the Priest Vpon this Ground be it Rocke or Sand it is all one for you make it Rocke and build upon it I shall raise this Battery against the Popes Infallibility First the Pope if he have any Infallibility at all he hath it as he is Bishop of Rome and S. Peters Successor Bellaâ—… L 4. de Ro. Pent. c. 3. § 〈◊〉 Pâ—…vilegium est This is granted Secondly the Pope cannot be Bishop of Rome but he must be in holy Orders first And if any man be chosen that is not so the Election is void ipso facto propter errorem Personae for the Errour of the Person †Constantinus ex Laiâ—…o Papa circa Ann. 767. ejectus Papatu Et Steph 3. qui successit habito Concilio statuit ne quis nisi per Gradus Ecclesiasticos ascendens Pontifiâ—…atuÌ„ occupare auderet sub paenâ Anathematis Decret Dist. 79. c. Nullus This is also granted Thirdly He that is to be made Pope can never be in Holy Orders but by receiving them from One that hath Power to Ordaine This is notoriously knowne So is it also that with you Order is a Sacrament properly so called And if so then the Pope when he did receive the Order of Deacon or Priesthood at the hands of the Bishop did also receive a Sacrament Vpon these Grounds I raise my Argument thus Neither the Church nor any Member of the Church can know that
this Pope which now sits or any other that hath beene or shall be is Infallible For he is not Infallible unlesse he be Pope and he is not Pope unlesse he be in Holy Orders And he cannot be so unlesse he have received those Holy Orders and that from one that had Power to Ordaine And those Holy Orders in your Doctrine are a Sacrament And a Sacrament is not perfectly given if he that Administers it have not intentionem faciendi quod facit Ecclesia an intention to doe that which the Church doth by Sacraments Now who can possibly tell that the Bishop which gave the Pope Orders was first a man qualified to give them and secondly so devoutly set upon his Worke that he had at the Instant of giving them an Intention and purpose to doe therein as the Church doth Surely none but that Bishop himselfe And his testimony of himselfe and his owne Act such especially as if faulty he would be loth to Confesse can neither give Knowledge nor Beliefe sufficient that the Pope according to this Canon is in Holy Orders So upon the Whole matter let the Romanists take which they will I give them free choyce either this Canon of the Councell of Trent is false Divinity and there is no such Intention necessary to the Essence and Being of a Sacrament Or if it be true it is impossible for any man to know and for any advised man to Believe That the Pope is Infallible in â—…is Iudiciall Sentences in things belonging to the Faith And so here againe a Generall Councell at least such an One as that of Trent is can Erre or the Pope is not Infallible But this is an Argument ad Hominem good against your Partie onely which maintaine this Councâ—…ll But the plaine Truth is Both are Errours For neither is the Bishop of Rome Infallible in his Iudicialls about the Faith Nor is this Intention of either Bishop or Priest of Absolute Necessity to the Essence of a Sacrament so as to make void the gracious Institution of Christ in case by any Tentation the Priests Thoughts should wander from his Worke at the Instant of using the Essentials of a Sacrament or have in him an Actuall Intention to scorne the Church And you may remember if you please that a Neopolitan †Minorensis Episcopus suit Bishop then present at Trent disputed this Case very learnedly and made it most evident that this Opinion cannot be defended but that it must open a way for any unworthy Priest to make infinite Nullities in Administration of the Sacraments And his Arguments were of such strength * L 2. Hist. Trident p 276. 277. Lâ—…idae An. 1622 ut caeteros Theologos dederint in stuporem as amazed the other Divines which were present And concluded That no Internall Intention was required in the Minister of a Sacrament but that Intention which did appeare Opere externo in the VVorke it selfe performed by him And that if hee had unworthily any wandring thoughts nay more any contrary Intention within him yet it neither did nor could hinder the blessed effect of any Sacrament And most certaine it is if this be not true besides all other Inconveniences which are many no man can secure himselfe upon any Doubt or trouble in his Conscience that he hath truly and really beene made partaker of any Sacrament whatsoever No not of Baptisme and so by Consequence be left in Doubt whether he be a Christian or no even after he is Baptised Wheras 't is most impossible That Christ should so order his Sacraments and so leave them to his Church as that poore Believers in his Name by any unworthinesse of any of his Priests should not be able to know whether they have received His Sacraments or not even while they have received them And yet for all this such great lovers of Truth and such Carefull Pastors over the Flock of Christ were these Trent Fathers that they regarded none of this but went on in the usuall track and made their Decree for the Internall Intention and purpose of the Priest and that the Sarcament was invalid without it Nay one Argument more there is and from your owne Grounds too that makes it more then manifest That the Pope can erre not Personally only but Iudicially also and so teach false Doctrine to the Church which a Summus Pontifâ—… quum 〈◊〉 Ecclesiam â—…ct in his quae al Fidem pertinent nullo casu â—…rrare potest Bel. l. 4. De Ro. Pâ—…t c. 3. §. 1. Bellarmine tels us No Pope hath done or can doe And a Maxime it is with you That a Generall Councell can erre if it be not confirmed by the Pope b Concilia Genâ—…ralia à Pontifiâ—… Consirmata 〈◊〉 non possunt 〈◊〉 L. 2. de Con. c. 2. §. 1. But if it be confirmed then it cannot erre Where first this is very improper Language For I hope no Councell is Confirmed till it be finished And when 't is finished even before the Popes Confirmation be put to it either it hath Erred or not erred If it have Erred the Pope ought not to Confirme it and if he do t is a void Act. For no power can make falshood Truth If it have not Erred then it was True before the Pope Confirmed it So his Confirmation addes nothing but his owne Assent Therefore his Confirmation of a Generall Councell as you will needs call it is at the most Signum non Causa A Signe and that such as may faile but no Cause of the Councels not Erring But then secondly if a Generall Councell Confirmed as you would have it by the Pope have Erred and so can Erre then certainly the Pope can Erre Iudicially For he never gives a more solemne Sentence for Truth then when he Decrees any thing in a Generall Councell Therefore if he have Erred and can Erre there then certainly he can Erre in his Definitive Sentence about the Faith and is not Infallible Now that he hath Erred and therefore can Erre in a Generall Councell Confirmed in which he takes upon him to teach all Christendome is most cleere and evident For the Pope teaches in and by the a Conc. Lateran Can. 1. Councell of Lateran Confirmed by Innocent the third Christ is present in the Sacrament by way of Transubstantiation And in and by the b Concil Constan Sess. 13. Councell of Constance the Administration of the Blessed Sacrament to the Laity in one kinde notwithstanding Christs Institution of it in both kindes for all And in and by the c Concil Trid. Sess. 25. Decret de Invotatione Councell of Trent Invocation of Saints and Adoration of Images to the great Scandall of Christianity and as great hazard of the Weake Now that these Particulars among Many are Errours in Divinity and about the Faith is manifest both by Scripture and the Iudgement of the Primitive Church For Transubstantiation first That was never heard of in the Primitive Church nor
Protestants have ever beene ready for Truth and in Charity to grant as much as might be And therefore from the beginning many †Nos fatemur sub Papaetu plurimum esse boni imò omne bonum Christianum at que etiam illinc ad nos devenisse c. Luther contra Anabaptist citante Bellarmine L. 4. de Notis Eccles. c. 16. §. penult Et Field appendice par 3. c. 2. Et Ios. Hall Bishop of Exeter L. Of the Old Religion c. t. Many holding Christ the Foundation aright and groaning under the burden of Popish trash c. by a generall repentance and assured Faith in their Saviour did finde favour with the Lord. D. Geo. Abbot late Archbishop of Cant. Answer to Hill ad Ration 1. §. 30. For my part I dare not deny the possibility of their Salvation who have beene the chiefest Instruments of ours c. Hooker in his Discourse of Iustificat §. 17. In former times a man might hold the generall Doctrine of those Churches wherein our Fathers lived and be saved And yet since the Councell of Trent some are found in it in such degree of Orthodoxy as we may well hope of their Salvation Field L. 3. Eccl. c. 47. The Latine or Westerne Church subject to the Romish Tyranny was a true Church in which a saving profession of the Truth of Christ was found Ios. Hall B. of Exeter L. Of the old Religion fine in his Advertisement to the Reader p. 202. Non panci retinuerunt Christum Fundamentum c. Mornaeus Tract de Ecclesia c. 9. fine Inter sordes istas ista quae summe cum periculo expectetur salus non ipsorum Additamentis sed iis quae nobiscum habent communia Fundamentis est attribuenda Io. Prideaux Lectione 9. fine Papa aliquam adhuc Religionis formam relinquit spem vitae aternae non tollit c. Calv. Instruct. advers Libertinos c. 4. Leà rned men granted this So that you needed not have put such a serious Mark that upon my speech as if none before had or none but I would speake it And if your Marke that were not for some New matter was it for some Great Yes sure it was For what greater then Salvation But then I pray marke this too That might be saved grants but a a Here A. C. gets another snatch and tels us That to grant a Possibility of Salvation in the Romane Church is the free Confession of an Adversary and therfore is of force against us and extorted by Truth But to say that salvation is more securely and easily to be had in the Protestant Faith that 's but their partiall Opinion in their own behalfe and of no force especially with Romane Catholikes I easily believe this latter part That this as A. C. and the rest use the matter with their Proselytes shall be of little or no force with Romane Catholikes But it will behoove them that it bee of force For let any indifferent man weigh the Necessary Requisites to Salvation and he shall finde this no partiall Opinion but very plaine and reall Verity That the Protestant living according to his belief is upon the safer way to Heaven And as for my Confession let them enforce it as farre as they can against me so they observe my Limitations which if they do A. C. and his fellowes will of all the rest have but little comfort in such a limited Possibility Possibility no sure or safe way to Salvation The Possibility I think cannot be denied the Ignorants especially because they hold the Foundation and cannot survey the Building And the Foundation can deceive no man that rests upon it But a secure way they cannot goe that hold with such corruptions when they know them Now whether it be wisdome in such a Point as Salvation is to forsake a Church in the which the Ground of Salvation is firme to follow a Church in which it is but possible one may be saved but very probable he may do worse if he look not well to the Foundation judge ye I am sure b L. 1. De Bapt. cont Don. c. 3. Gravitèr peccarent in rebus ad salutem animae pertinentibus c. â—…o solo quod certis incerta praeponerent S. Augustine thought it was not and judged it a great sinne in Point of Salvation for a man to preferre incerta certis uncertainties and naked possibilities before an evident and certaine Course And c Propter incertitudinem propriae Iustitiae periculuminanis gloriâ—… tutissimuÌ„ est fiduciam totam in solá Dei misericordiâ benignitate reponere Bellar. L. 5. ae Iustif. c. 7. §. Sit tertia Propositio Bellarmine is of Opinion and that in the Point of Iustification That in regard of the uncertainty of our own Righteousnesse and of the danger of vaine glory tutissimum est 't is safest to repose our whole trust in the Mercy and Goodnesse of God And surely if there be One safer way then another as he Confesses there is he is no wise man that in a matter of so great moment will not betake himselfe to the safest way And therefore even you your selves in the Point of Condignity of Merit though you write it and preach it boysterously to the People yet you are content to dye renouncing the condignity of all your owne Merits and trust to Christs Now surely if you will not venture to dye as you live live and beleeve in time as you meane to die And one thing more because you bid Marke this let me remember to tell you for the benefit of others Vpon this very Point That we acknowledge an honest ignorant Papist may be saved you and your like worke upon the advantage of our Charity and your owne want of it to abuse the weake For thus I am told you worke upon them You see the Protestants at least many of them confesse there may be salvation in our Church We absolutely deny there is salvation in theirs Therefore it is safer to come to Ours then to stay in theirs to be where almost all grant Salvation then where the greater part of the world deny it This Argument is very prevailing with men that cannot weigh it and with women especially that are put in feare by * And this peece of Cunning to affright the weake was in use in Iustin Martyrs time Quosdam scimus c. ad Iracundiam suam Evangelium pâ—…ntes c. quibus si potestas ea obtigisset ut â—…los Gehenna traderent Orbem quoque Vniversum consumpsissent Iust. Martyr Epist. ad Zenam Serinam And here 't is ad Iracundiam suam Ecclesiam pertrahentes c. violent though causelesse denying Heaven unto them And some of your party since this have set out a Booke called Charity mistaken But beside the Answer fully given to it this alone is sufficient to Confute it First that in this our Charity what ever yours be is not mistaken unlesse the
spiritualiter idest invisibiliter per virtutem Spiritus Sancti Thom. p. 3. q. 75. A. 1. ad 1 um Spiritualiter manducandus est per Fidem Charitatem Tena in Heb. 13. Difficultate 8. Faith made spiritually partaker of the true and reall Body and Blood of Christ †I would have no man troubled at the words Truly and Really For that Blessed Sacrament received as it ought to be doth Truly and Really exhibit and apply the Body and the Blood of Christ to the Receiver So Bishop White in his Defence against T. W. P. Edit London 1617. p. 138. And Calvin in 1 Cor. 10. 3. Verè datur c. And againe in 1 Cor. 11. 24. Neque enim Mortis tantùm Resurrectionis suae beneficium nobis offert Christus sed Corpus ipsum in quo passus est resurrexit Concludo Realiter ut vulgò loquuntur hoc est Verè nobis in Coenâ datur Christi Corpus ut sit Animis nostris in cibum Salutarem c. truly and really and of all the Benefits of his Passion Your Romane Catholikes adde a manner of this his Presence Transubstantiation which many deny and the Lutherans a manner of this Presence Consubstantiation which more deny If this argument be good then even for this Consent it is safer Communicating with the Church of England then with the Roman or Lutheran Because all agree in this Truth not in any other Opinion Nay †Hoe totum pendet ex Principiis Metaphysicis philosophicis ad Fidei Doctrinam non est necessarium Suarez iâ—… 3. Thom. Disput. 50. §. 2. Suarez himselfe and he a very Learned Adversary what say you to this A. C doth Truth force this from him Confesses plainely †That to Beleeve Transubstantiation is not simply necessary A. C. p. 64. 65. to Salvation And yet he knew well the Church had Determined it And * Bellar. L. 3. de Eucha c. 18. §. Ex his colligimus Bellarmine after an intricate tedious and almost inexplicable Discourse about an Adductive Conversion A thing which neither Divinity nor Philosophy ever heard of till then is at last forced to come to this a Sed quidquid fit de Modis loquendi illud tenendum est Conversionem Panis Uini in Corpus Sanguinem Christi esse substantialem sed arcanam ineffabilem nullis naturalibus Conversionibus per omnia similem c. Bellar. in Recognit hujus loci Et Vid. §. 38. Nu. 3 Whatsoever is concerning the manner and formes of speech illud tenendum est this is to be held that the Conversion of the Bread and Wine into the Body and the Blood of Christ is substantiall but after a secret and ineffable manner and not like in all things to any naturall Conversion whatsoever Now if he had left out Conversion and affirmed only Christs reall Presence there after a mysterious and indeed an ineffable manner no man could have spoke better And therefore if you will force the Argument alwayes to make that the safest way of Salvation which differing Parties agree on why doe you not yeeld to the force of the same Argument in the Beliefe of the Sacrament one of the most immediate meanes of Salvation where not onely the most but all agree And your owne greatest Clarkes cannot tell what to say to the Contrary I speake here for the force of the Argument which certainly in it selfe is nothing though by A. C. made of great account For he sayes 'T is a A. C. p. 64. Confession of Adversaries extorted by Truth Iust as * Sed quia it a magnum firmamentum vanitatis vestrae in hâc sententia esse abitramini ut ad hoc tiâ—… terminandam putares Epistolam quo quasi recentiùs in Animus LegeÌ„tium remaneret brevitèr respondeo c. S. Aug. L. 2. cont Lit. Petil. c. 108. Andhere A. C. ad hoc sibi putavit terminandaÌ„ Collationem sed frustra ut apâ—…bit Num. 6. Petilian the Donatist brag'd in the case of Baptisme But in truth 't is nothing For the Syllogisme which it frames is this The Papists and the Protestants which are the Parties differing agree in this That there is Salvation possible to be found in the Romane Church But in Point of Faith and Salvation 't is safest for a man to take that way which the differing Parties agree on Therfore 't is safest for a man to be and continue in the Romane Church To the Major Proposition then I observe first that though many Learned Protestants grant this all doe not And then that Proposition is not Universall nor able to sustaine the Conclusion For they doe not in this all agree nay I doubt not but there are some Protestants which can and do as stifly and as churlishly deny them Salvation as they doe us And A. C. should doe well to consider whether they doe it not upon as good reason at least Next for the Minor Proposition Namely That in point of Faith and Salvation 't is safest for a man to take that way which the Adversary confesses or the Differing Parties agree on I fay that is no Metaphysicall Principle but a bare Contingent Proposition and may be true or false as the matter is to which it is applyed and so of no necessary truth in it selfe nor able to leade in the Conclusion Now that this Proposition In point of Faith and Salvation 't is safest for a man to take that way which the differing Parties agree on or which the Adversary Confesses hath no strength in it selfe but is sometimes true and sometimes false as the Matter is about which it is conversant is most evident First by Reason Because Consent of disagreeing Parties is neither Rule nor Proofe of Truth For Herod and Pilate disagreeing Parties enough yet agreed against Truth it selfe But Truth rather is or should be the Rule to frame if not to force Agreement And secondly by the two Instances †§. 35. N. 3 before given For in the Instance betweene the Orthodox Church then and the Donatists this Proposition is most false For it was a Point of Faith and so of Salvation that they were upon Namely the right use and administration of the Sacrament of Baptisme And yet had it beene safest to take up that way which the differing Parts agreed on or which the adverse Part Confessed men must needs have gone with the Donatists against the Church And this must fall out as oft as any Heretick will cunningly take that way against the Church which the Donatists did if this Principle shall goe for currant But in the second Instance concerning the Eucharist a matter of Faith and so of Salvation too the same Proposition is most true And the Reason is because here the matter is true Namely The true and reall participation of the Body and Blood of Christ in that Blessed Sacrament But in the former the matter was false Namely That Rebaptization
is contrary to the Holy Word of God And so likewise Bishop Ridley Nay Bishop Ridley addes yet farther and speakes so fully to this Point as I thinke no man can adde to his Expression And 't is well if some Protestants except not against it Both you and I saith d Apud Fox ibid p. 1598. he agree in this That in the Sacrament is the very true and naturall Body and Blood of Christ even that which was borne of the Virgin Marv which ascended into Heaven which sits on the right hand of God the Father which shall come from thence to judge the quicke and the dead Onely we differ in modo in the way and manner of Being We confesse all one thing to be in the Sacrament and dissent in the Manner of Being there I confesse Christ's Naturall Body to bee in the Sacrament by Spirit and Grace c. You make a grosser kinde of Being inclosing a naturall Body under the shape and forme of Bread and Wine So farre and more Bishop Ridley And a Apud Fox ibid. p. 1703. Archbishop Cranmer confesses that he was indeed of another Opinion and inclining to that of Zuinglius till Bishop Ridley convinced his Iudgement and setled him in this Point And for b Tantùm de modo quastio est c. Et facessat calumnia auferri Christum à Coenà suà c. Calv. L. 4. Inst. c. 17. §. 31. Veritatem Dei in quâ acquiescere tutò licet sine controversia amplectar Pronunâ—…i it Ille Carnem suam esse Anima mea cibum Sanguinem esse potum Talibus alimentis animam Illi meam pascendum offero In S. Coena jubet me sub Symbolis Panis Vini Corpus Sanguinem suum sumere manducare bibere Nihil dubito quin Ipse Verè porrigat ego recipiam Calv ibid. §. 32. Calvine he comes no whit short of these against the Calumnie of the Romanists on that behalfe Now after all this with what face can A. C. say as he doth That Protestants deny or doubt of the true and reall Presence of Christ in the Sacrament I cannot well tell or am unwilling to utter Fiftly whereas 't is added by A. C. That in this present case there is no perill of any damnable Heresie Pun. 5. A. C. p. 66. Schisme or any other Sinne in resolving to live and die in the Romane Church That 's not so neither For he that lives in the Romane Church with such a Resolution is presumed to believe as that Church believes And he that doth so I will not say is as guilty but guilty he is more or lesse of the Schisme which that Church first caused by her Corruptions and now continues by them and her power together And of all her Damnable Opinions too in point of Misbeliefe though perhaps A. C. will not have them called Heresies unlesse they have beene condemned in some Generall Councell And of all other sinnes also which the Doctrine and Misbeliefe of that Church leads him into And marke it I pray For 't is one thing to live in a Schismaticall Church and not Communicate with it in the Schisme or in any false Worship that attends it For so Elias lived among the Ten Tribes and was not Schismaticall 3. Reg. 17. And after him Elizaus 4. Reg. 3. Reg. 17 4. Reg. 3. 3. But then neither of them either countenanced the Schisme or worshipped the Calves in Dan or in Bethel And so also beside these Prophets did those Thousands live in a Schismaticall Church yet never bowed their knee to Baal 3. Reg. 19. But 't is 3. Reg. 19. 18. quite another thing to live in a Schismaticall Church and Communicate with it in the Schisme and in all the Superstitions and Corruptions which that Church teaches nay to live and die in them For certainly here no man can so live in a Schismaticall Church but if he be of capacity enough and understand it he must needs be a Formall Schismatick or an Involved One if he understand it not And in this case the Church of Rome is either farre worse or more cruell then the Church of Israel even under Ahab and Jezabel was The Synagogue indeed was corrupted a long time and in a great degree But I do not finde that this Doctrine You must sacrifice in the high places Or this You may not go and worship at the one Altar in Ierusalem was either taught by the Priests or maintained by the Prophets or enjoyned the people by the Sanedrim Nay can you shew me when any Iew living there devontly according to the Law was ever punished for omitting the One of these or doing the Other But the Church of Rome hath solemnly decreed her Errours And erring hath yet decreed withall That she cannot erre And imposed upon Learned men disputed and improbable Opinions Transubstantiation Purgatorie and Forbearance of the Cup in the blessed Eucharist even against the expresse Command of our Saviour and that for Articles of Faith And to keepe off Disobedience what ever the Corruption be she hath bound up her Decrees upon paine of Excommunication and all that followes upon it Nay this is not enough unlesse the fagot be kindled to light them the way This then may be enough for us to leave Rome though the old Prophet forsooke not Israel 3. Reg. 13. And therefore in this present case there 's perill great perill of 3. Reg. 13. 11. damnable both Schisme and Herefie and other sinne by living and dying in the Romane Faith tainted with so many superstitions as at this day it is and their Tyrannie to boot So that here I may answer A. C. just as * Petilianus dixit Venite ad Ecclesiam populi ausugite Traditores ita Orthâ—…doxos tum appellavit si cum iisdem perire non vulus Nam ut facile cognoscatis quod ipsi sunt rci de fide nostra optimè judicant Ego illorum infectos baptizo Illi meos quod absit recipiunt baptizatos quae omnino non facerent si in Baptismo nostro culpas aliquas agnovissâ—…nt Videte ergo quod damus quam sanctum sit quod destiuere metuit Sacrilegus Inimicus S. August respondet Sic approbamâ—…s in Haâ—…reticis Baptismum non Haercticorum sed Christi sicut in Fornicatoribus Idololatrâ—… Veneficis c. approbamus Baptismum non corum sed Christi Omnes enim isti inter quos Haerctici sunt sicut dicit Apostolus Regnum Dei non possidebunt c. S. August L. 2. cont Lit. Petiliani c. 108. S. Augustine answered Petilian the Donatist in the fore-named case of Baptisme For when Petilian pleaded the Concession of his Adversaries That Baptisme as the Donatists administred it was good and lawfull and thence inferred just as the Iesuite doth against me that it was better for men to joyne with his Congregation then with the Church S. Augustine answers We do indeed approve among Hâ—…reticks Baptisme
Animas reâ—…runt Pet. Matt. Loc. Com. Class 3. Ca. 15. Nu 4. they utterly deny any Resurrection of the Body after Death So with them that Article of the Creed is gone Now then if any man will guide his Faith by this Rule of A. C. The Consent of dissenting Parties or the Confession of the Adverse Part hee must denie the Resurrection of the Body from the Grave to Glory and believe none but that of the Soule from sinne to Grace which the Adversaries Confesse and in which the Dissenting Parties agree Punct 3. Thirdly in the great Dispute of all others about the Vnity of the Godhead All dissenting parties Iew Turke and Christian Among Christians Orthodoxe and Anti-Trinitarian of old And in these later times Orthodoxe and Socinian that Horrid and mighty monster of all Heresies agree in this That there is but one God And I hope it is as necessary to believe one God our Father as one Church our Mother Now will A. C. say here 't is safest believing as the dissenting Parties agree or as the Adverse Parties Confesse namely That there is but one God and so deny the Trinity and therewith the Sonne of God the Saviour of the world Fourthly in a Point as Fundamentall in the Faith as Punct 4. this Namely whether Christ be true and very God For which very Point most of the a Hebr. 11. 37. Cyrillus Alexandrinut malè audivit quod Ammonium Martyrem appellavit quem constitit temeritatis poenas dedisse non Necessitate negandi Christi in tormentis esse mortuum Socr. Hist. Eccl. L. 7. c. 14. Martyrs in the Primitive Church laid down their lives The dissenting Parties here were the Orthodoxe Believers who affirme Hee is both God and Man for so our Creed teaches us And all those Hereticks which affirme Christ to bee Man but denie him to bee God as the b Optatus L. 4. Cont. Parmen Arrians and c Tertul. L. de Prascrip c. 48. Carpocratians and d Tertul. Ibid. Cerinthus and e Tertul. L. de Carne Christi c. 14. Hebion with others and at this day the f Si ad Iesu Christi respicias Essentiam at que Naturam non nisi Hominem eum fuisse constantèr affirmaâ—…us Volkelius Lib. 3. de Religione Christianâ cap. 1. Socinians These dissenting Parties agree fully and clearely That Christ is Man Well then Dare A. C. sticke to his Rule here and say 't is safest for a Christian in this great Point of Faith to governe his Beliefe by the Consent of these dissenting Parties or the Confession and acknowledgement of the Adverse Partie and so settle his Beliefe that Christ is a meere Man and not God I hope hee dares not So then this Rule To Resolve a mans Faith into that in which the Dissenting Parties agree or which the Adverse Part confesses is as often false as true And false in as Great if not Greater Matters then those in which it is true And where 't is true A. C. and his fellowes dare not governe themselves by it the Church of Rome condemning those things which that Rule proves And yet while they talke of Certainty nay of Infallibility lesse will not serve their turnes they are driven to make use of such poore shifts as these which have no certainty at all of Truth in them but inferre falshood and Truth alike And yet for this also men will be so weake or so wilfull as to be seduced by them I told you * §. 35. Nu. 2. fine before That the force of the preceding Argument lies upon two things The one expressed and that 's past the other upon the Bye which comes now to be handled And that is your continuall poore Out-cry against us That we cannot be saved because we are out of the Church Sure if I thought I were out I would get in as fast as I could For we confesse as well as you That a Extra Ecclesiam veminem Vivificat Spiritus Sanctus S. Aug. Epist. 5 0. ad finem Field L. 1. de Eccles. c. 13. Vna est Fidelium Vniversalis Ecclesia extra quam nullus salvatur Conc Lateran Can. 1. And yet even there there is no mention of the Romane Church Out of the Catholike Church of Christ there is no Salvation But what do you meane by Out of the Church Sure out of the b And so doth A. C. too Out of the Catholiâ—… Romane Church there is no Possibility of Salvaâ—…on A C. p. 65. Romane Church Why but the Romane Church and the Church of England are but two distinct members of that Catholike Church which is spread over the face of the earth Therefore Rome is not the House where the Church dwels but Rome it selfe as well as other Particular Churches dwels in this great Universall House unlesse you will shut up the Church in Rome as the Donatists did in Africke I come a little lower Rome and oâ—…her Nationall Churches are in this Vniversall Catholike House as so many * And Daughter Sion was God's owne phrase of old of the Church Isa. 1. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hyppol Orat. de Consum mundi Et omnis Ecclesia Virgo appellata est S. Aug. Tr. 13. in S. Ioh. Daughters to whom under Christ the care of the Houshold is committed by God the Father and the Catholike Church the Mother of all Christians Rome as an Elder Sister †For Christ was to be preached to all Nations but that Preaching was to begin at Ierusalem S. Luc. 24. 47. according to the Prophesie Mic. 4. 2. And the Disciples were first called Christians at Antioch Act. 11. 26. And therefore there was a Church there before ever S. Peter came thence to settle One at Rome Nor is it an Opinion destitute either of Authority or Probability That the Faith of Christ was preached and the Sacraments administred here in England before any settlement of a Church in Rome For S. Gildas the Ancientest monument we have and whom the Romanists themselves reverence sayes expresly That the Religion of Christ was received in Britannie Tempore ut scimus summo Tiberii Caesaris c. In the later time of Tiberius Caesar Gildas deexcid Brit. whereas S. Peter kept in Iewrie long after Tiberius his death Therefore the first Conversion of this Iland to the Faith was not by S. Peter Nor from Rome which was not then a Church Against this Rich. Broughton in his Ecclesiasticall History of Great Britaine Centur. 1. C. 8. §. 4. sayes expresly That the Protestants do freely acknowledge that this Clause of the time of Tiberius tempore summo Tiberii Caesaris is wanting in other Copies of that holy Writer and namely in that which was set forth by Pol. Virgil and others Whereas first these words are expresse in a most faire and ancient Manuscript of Gildas to be seene in S t. Rob. Cotton's Study if any doubt it Secondly these words are as expresse in
What then Why then A. C. addes That D. White confessed that this Visible Church had in all ages A. C. p. 67. taught that unchanged Faith of Christ in all Points Fundamentall D. White had reason to say that the Visible Church taught so but that this or that Particular Visible Church did so teach sure D. White affirmed not unlesse in case the whole Visible Church of Christ were reduced to one Particular only But suppose this What then Why then A. C. telles us that D. White being urged to assigne such a Church expresly A. C. p. 67. granted he could assigne none different from the Romane which held in all ages all Points Fundamentall Now here I would faine know what A. C. meanes by a Church different from the Romane For if he mean different in Place 'T is easie to affirme the Greeke Church which as hath * §. 9. before beene prooved hath ever held and taught the Foundation in the midst of all her Pressures And if he meane differentiâ—… Doctrinall Things and those about the Faith he cannot assigne the Church of Rome for olding them in all ages But if he meane different in the Foundation it selfe the Creed then his urging to assigne a Church is void be it Rome or any other For if any other Church shall thus differ from Rome or Rome from it selfe as to deny this Foundation it doth not it cannot remaine a Differing Church sed transit in Non Ecclesiam but passes away into no-No-Church upon the Denyall of the Creed Now what A. C. meanes he expresses not nor can I tell but I may peradventure guesse noare it by that which out of these Premises he would inferre For hence he tels us he gathered that D. Whito's Opinion A. C. p. 67. was That the Romane Church held and taught in all ages unchanged Faith in all Fundamentall Points and did not in any age erre in any Point Fundamentall This is very well For A. C s. confesses he did but gather that this was Doctor White 's Opinion And what if he gathered that which grew not there nor thence For suppose all the Premises true yet no Cartrope can draw this Conclusion out of them And then all A. C ' s. labour's lost For grant some one Church or other must still be Visible And grant that this Visible Church held all Fundamentals of the Faith in all ages And grant againe that D. White could not assigne any Church differing from the Romane that did this Yet this will not follow that therefore the Romane did it And that because there 's more in the Conclusion then in the Premises For A. C s. A. C. p. 67. Conclusion is That in D. White 's Opinion the Romane Church held and taught in all ages unchanged Faith in all Fundamentall Points And so farre perhaps the Conclusion may stand taking Fundamentall Points in their literall sense as they are expressed in Creedes and approved Councels But then he addes And did not in any age erre in any Point Fundamentall Now this can never follow out of the Premises before laid downe For say some one Church or other may still be Visible And that Visible Church hold all Fundamentall Points in all Ages And no man be able to name another Church different from the Church of Rome that hath done this yet it followes not therefore That the Church of Rome did not erre in any age in any Point Fundamentall For a Church may hold the Fundamentall Point Literally and as long as it stayes there be without controlle and yet erre grosly dangerously nay damnably in the Exposition of it And this is the Church of Romes case For most true it is it hath in all ages maintained the Faith unchanged in the Expression of the Articles themselves but it hath in the exposition both of Creeds and Councels quite changed and lost the sense and the meaning of some of them So the Faith is in many things changed both for life and beliefe and yet seems the same Now that which deceives the world is That because the Barke is the same men thinke this old decayed Tree is as sound as it was at first and not weather-beaten in any age But when they can make me believe that Painting is true Beauty I 'le believe too that Rome is not only sound but beautifull But A. C. goes on and tels us That hereupon the Iesuite asked whether Errors in Points not Fundamental were damnable And that D. White answered they were not unlesse they A. C. p. 67. were held against conscience T is true that Error in Points not Fundamentall is the more damnable the more it is held against conscience But it is true too that Error in Points not Fundamentall may be damnable to some men though they hold it not against their conscience As namely when they hold an Errour in some Dangerous Points which grate upon the Foundation and yet will neither seeke the meanes to know the Truth nor accept and believe Truth when 't is known especially being men able to Iudge which I feare is the case of too many at this day in the Romane Church Out of all which A. C. tels us The Iesuite collected that D. White 's Opinion was That the Romane Church held all A. C. p. 68. Points Fundamentall and only erred in Points not Fundamentall which he accounted not damnable so long as he did not hold them against his Conscience And that thereupon hee said D. White had secured him since he held no Faith different from the Romane nor contrary to his Conscience Here againe wee have but A C s and the Iesuites Collection But if the Iesuite or A. C. will collect amisse who can helpe it I have spoken before in this very Paragraph to all the Passages of A. C. as supposing them true and set downe what is to be answered to them in case they proove so But now 't is most apparent by D. White 's Answer set downe before †§. 37. N. 1. at large that he never said that the Church of Rome erred onely in Points not Fundamentall as A. C. would have it But that hee said the contrary Namely that some errours of that Church were Fundamentall reductivê by a Reducement if they which embraced them did pertinaciously adhere to them having sufficient meanes of information And againe expresly That hee did not say that none were damnable so long as they were not held against Conscience Now where is A. C ' s. Collection For if a Iesuite or any other may collect Propositions which are not granted him nay contrary to those which are granted him hee may inferre what hee please And he is much too blame that will not inferre a strong Conclusion for himselfe that may frame his owne Premises say his Adversary what hee will And just so doth A. C. bring in his Conclusion to secure himselfe of Ialvation because he holds no Faith but the Romane nor that
damus c. S Cypr. L. 2. Epist. 1. Concordia quae est Charitatis effectus est â—…nio Voluntatum non Opinionum Tho. 2. 2 9. 37. Ar. 1. c. Dissensio de Minimis de Opinionibus repugnat quidem paci perfectae in quá plenè veritaes cognoscetur omnis appetitus complebitur Non tamen repugnat paci imperfectae qualis habetur in via Tho. 2. 2a q. 29. A. 3. ad 2. Charity too entire if they be so well minded I confesse it were heartily to be wished that in these things also men might be all of one mind and one judgement to which the Apostle exhorts †1 Cor. 1. 10 Phil 2 2. 1. Cor. 1. But this cannot be hoped for till the Church be Triumphant over all humane frailties which here hang thick and close about her The want both of Vnity and Peace proceeding too often even where Religion is pretended from Men and their Humours rather then from Things and Errours to be found in them And so A. C. tels me That it is not therfore as I would perswade the fault of Councels Definitions but the pride of A. C. p. 72. such as will preferre and not submit their private Iudgements that lost and continues the losse of peace and unity of the Church and the want of certainty in that one afore-said soule-saving Faith Once againe I am bold to tell A. C. that there is no want of certainty most infallible certainty of That one soule-saving Faith And if for other opinions which flutter about it there be a difference a dangerous difference as at this day there is yet necessary it is not that therfore or for prevention thereof there should be such a Certainty an Infallible Certainty in these things For he understood himselfe well that said Oportet esse Haereses 1. Cor. 11. There must there will be Heresies And wheresoever that Necessity lies 't is out of doubt 1. Cor. 11. 19. enough to prove That Christ never left such an Infallible Assurance as is able to prevent them Or such a Mastering Power in his Church as is able to over-awe them but they come with their Oportet about them and they rise and spring in all Ages very strangely But in particular for that which first caused and now continues the losse of Vnity in the Church of Christ as I make no doubt but that the Pride of men is one Cause so yet can I not think that Pride is the adaequate and sole Cause thereof But in part Pride caused it and Pride on all sides Pride in some that would not at first nor will not since submit their private judgements where with good Conscience they may and ought And Pride in others that would not first nor will not yet mend manifest great and dangerous errours which with all good Conscience they ought to do But 't is not Pride not to submit to known and grosse Errours And the Definitions of some Councels perhaps the Lateran Constance and Trent have beene greater and more urgent Causes of breach of Unity then the Pride of men hath been which yet I shall never excuse where'ere it is How farre this one soule-saving Faith extends A. C. tels me I have confessed it not a worke for my pen But A. C. p. 72. he sayes it is to be learned from that One Holy Catholike Apostolike alwayes Visible and Infallible Roman Church of which the Lady once doubting is now fully satisfied c. Indeed though A. C. sets this down with some scorn which I can easily passe over 't is true that thus I a §. 38. Nu. 1. said There is a Latitude in Faith especially in reference to different mens salvation But to set a Bound to this and strictly to define it Iust thus farre you must Believe in every particular or incurre damnation is no work for my pen. Thus I said and thus I say still For though the Foundation be one and the same in all yet a b §. 38. Nu. 8. Latitude there is and a large one too when you come to Consider not the Foundation common to all but things necessary to many particular mens Salvation For to whom soever God hath given more of him shall more be required c S. Luc. 12. 48. 〈◊〉 secundùm proportionem suam secundùm differentiam Scientiae vel Ignorantiae c. Et postea Extenditur doctrina hac non solum ad Donum Scientia c. Cajetan in S. Luc. 12. Ecce quomodo Scientia aggravat Culpam Unde Gregorius c. Gorran in S. Luc. 12. Therefore many things may be necessary for a Knowing mans Salvation which are not so for a poore Ignorant soule Si quis de Antecossoribus nostris vel ignorantèr vel simplicitèr non hoc observavit tenuit quod nos Dominus facere exemplo magisterio suo docuit potest simplicitati ejus de Indulgentiá Domini Venia concedi Nobis verò non poterit ignosci qui nunc à Domino admoniti instructi sumus S. Cyprian L. 2. Epist. 3. S. Luc. 12. as well in Beliefe as in Obedience and Performance And the gifts of God both ordinary and extraordinary to particular men are so various as that for my part I hold it impossible for the ablest pen that is to expresse it And in this respect I d § 38. Nu. 1. said it with humility and Reason That to set these bounds was no worke for my pen. Nor will I ever take upon me to expresse that Tenet or Opinion the deniall of the Foundation onely excepted which may shut any Christian the meanest out of heaven And A. C. I believe you know very well to what a narrow scantling some a Articuli Fidei sunt sicut Principia per se nota Et sicut quadam corum in aliis implicitè continentur ita omnes Articuli implicitè continentur in aliquibus primis Credibilibus c. secundùm illud ad Heb. 11. Tho. 2 2a q. 1. A. 10. c. In absoluto nobis facili est aternitas Iesum suscitatum à mortuis per Deum credere ipsum esse Dominum consiteri c. S. Hilar. L. 10. de Trin. ad finem Learned of your owne side bring the very Foundation it selfe rather then they will loose any that lay hold on Christ the Sonne of God and Redeemer of the world And as Christ Epitomizes the whole Law of Obedience into these two great Commandements The Love of God and our Neighbour S. Mat. 22. So the Apostle epitomizes the whole S. Matth. 22. 37. Law of Beliefe into these two great Assents That God is And that He is a Rewarder of them that seeke hun Heb. 11. That seeke him in Christ. And S. Peter Heb. 11. 6. was full of the Holy Ghost when he exprest it That there is no salvation to them that seeke it in or by another Name Act. 4. Act. 4. 12. But since this is no
be because it rests upon Divine Authority which cannot deceive whereas Knowledge or at least he that thinks he knowes is not ever certaine in Deductions from Principles †§. 16. 〈◊〉 13. But the Evidence is not so deere For it is c Heb. 11. 1. of things not seene in regard of the Object and in regard of the Subject thatsees it is in d 1 Cor. 13. 12. And A. C. confesses p. 52. That this very thing in Question may be known infallibly when 't is knowne but obscurely Et Scotus in 3. Dist. 23 q. 1. fol. 41. B. Hoc modo sacile est videre quomodo â—…ides est cum aenigmate obscuritate Quia Habitus Fidei non credit Articulum esse verum ex Evidentia Objâ—…cti sed propter hoc quod assentit veracitati infâ—…ndentis Habitum in hoc revelantis Credibilia aenigmate in a Glasse or darke speaking Now God doth not require a full Demonstrative Knowledge in us that the Scripture is his Word and therefore in his Providence hath kindled in it no Light for that but he requires our Faith of it and such a certaine Demonstration as may fit that And for that he hath left sufficient Light in Scripture to Reason and Grace meeting where the soule is morally prepared by the Tradition of the Church unlesse you be of Bellarmine's e Bellar. l. 3. de Eccles. c. 14. Credere 〈◊〉 esse divinaâ—… Scripturas non est omninò necessarium ad salutem I will not breake my Discourse to risâ—…e this speech of Bellarmine it is bad enough in the best sense that favour it selfe can give it For if he meane by omninò that it is not altogether or simply necessary to believe there is Divine Scripture and a written Word of God that 's false that being granted which is among all Christians That there is a Scripture And God would never have given a Supernaturall unnecessary thing And if he meanes by omninò that it is not in any wise necessary then it is sensibly false For the greatest upholders of Tradition that ever were made the Scripture very necessary in all the Ages of the Church So it was necessary because it was given and given because God thought it necessary Besides upon Romane Grounds this I thinke will follow That which the Tradition of the present Church delivers as necessary to believe is omninò necessary to salvation But that there are Divine Scriptures the Tradition of the present Church delivers as necessary to believe Therefore to believe there are Divine Scriptures is omninò be the sense of the word what it can necessary to Salvation So Bellarmine is herein foule and unable to stand upon his owne ground And he is the more partly because he avouches this Proposition for truth after the New Testament written And partly because he might have seene the state of this Proposition carefully examined by Gandavo and distinguished by Times Sum. p. 1. A. 8. q. 4. fine Opinion That to believe there are any Divine Scriptures is not omninò necessary to Salvation The Authority which you pretend against this is out of a Lib. 1. §. 14. Hooker Of things necessary the very chiefest is to know what Bookes we are bound to esteeme Holy which Point is confessed impossible for the Scripture it selfe to teach Of this b Protest Apol. Tract 1. §. 10. N. 3. Brierly the Store-house for all Priests that will be idle and yet seeme well read tels us That c L. 2. §. 4. Hooker gives a very sensible Demonstration It is not the Word of God which doth or possibly can assure us that wee doe well to thinke it is His Word for if any one Booke of Scripture did give Testimony to all yet still that Scripture which giveth credit to the rest would require another to give credit unto it Nor could we ever come to any pause to rest our assurance this way so that unlesse beside Scripture there were something that might assure c. And d L. 2. §. 7. L. 3. §. 8. this he acknowledgeth saith Brierly is the Authority of Gods Church Certainely Hooker gives a true and a sensible Demonstration but Brierly wants fidelity and integrity in citing him For in the first place Hooker's speech is Scripture it selfe cannot teach this nor can the Truth say that Scripture it selfe can It must needs ordinarily have Tradition to prepare the minde of a man to receive it And in the next place where he speaks so sensibly That Scripture cannot beare witnesse to it selfe nor one part of it to another that is grounded upon Nature which admits no created thing to bee witnesse to it selfe and is acknowledged by our Saviour e S. Ioh. 5. 31. He speakes of himselfe as man If I beare witnesse to my selfe my witnesse is not true that is is not of force to bee reasonably accepted for Truth But then it is more then manifest S. Ioh. 8. 13. that Hooker delivers his Demonstration of Scripture alone For if Scripture hath another proofe nay many other proofes to usher it and lead it in then no question it can both prove and approve it selfe His words are So that unlesse besides Scripture there be c. Besides Scripture therefore he excludes not Scripture though he call for another Proofe to lead it in and help in assurance namely Tradition which no man that hath his braines about him denies In the two other Places Brierly falsifies shamefully for folding up all that Hooker sayes in these words This other meanes to assure us besides Scripture is the Authority of Gods Church he wrinkles that Worthy Authour desperately and shrinkes up his meaning For in the former place abused by Brierly no man can set a better state of the Question betweene Scripture and Tradition then Hooker doth a L. 2. §. 7. His words are these The Scripture is the ground of our Beliefe The Authority of man that is the Name he gives to Tradition is the Key which opens the doore of entrance into the knowledge of the Scripture I aske now when a man is entred and hath viewed a house and upon viewing likes it and upon liking resolves unchangeably to dwell there doth he set up his Resolution upon the Key that let him in No sure but upon the goodnesse and Commodiousnesse which he sees in the House And this is all the difference that I know betweene us in this Point In which do you grant as you ought to do that we resolve our Faith into Scripture as the Ground and we will never deny that Tradition is the Key that lets us in In the latter place Hooker is as plaine as constant to himselfe and Truth b L. 3. §. 8. His words are The first outward Motive leading men so to esteeme of the Scripture is the Authority of Gods Church c. But afterwards the more wee bestow our Labour in reading or learning the Mysteries thereof the
more wee finde that the thing it selfe doth answer our received opinion concerning it so that the former inducement prevailing somewhat with us before doth now much more prevaile when the very thing hath ministred farther Reason Here then againe in his Iudgement Tradition is the first Inducement but the farther Reason and Ground is the Scripture And Resolution of Faith ever settles upon the Farthest Reason it can not upon the First Inducement So that the State of this Question is firme and yet plaine enough to him that will not shut his eyes Now here after a long silence A. C. thrusts himselfe in againe and tels me That if I would A. C. p. 52. consider the Tradition of the Church not onely as it is the Tradition of a Company of Fallible men in which sense the Authority of it as himselfe confesses is but Humane and Fallible c. But as the Tradition of a Company of men assisted by Christ and his Holy Spirit in that sense I might easily finde it more then an Introduction indeed as much as would amount to an Infallible Motive Well I have considered The Tradition of the present Church both these wayes And I finde that A. C. confesses That in the first sense the Tradition of the Church is meere humane Authority and no more And therefore in this sense it may serve for an Introduction to this Beliefe but no more And in the second sense as it is not the Tradition of a Company of men onely but of men assisted by Christ and His Spirit In this second sense I cannot finde that the Tradition of the present Church is of Divine and Infallible Authority till A. C. can prove That this Company of men the Romane Prelates and their Clergie he meanes are so fully so cleerely so permanently assisted by Christ and his Spirit as may reach to Infallibility much lesse to a Divine Infallibility in this or any other Principle which they teach For every Assistance of Christ and the Blessed Spirit is not enough to make the Authority of any Company of men Divine and infallible but such and so great an Assistance onely as is purposely given to that effect Such an Assistance the Prophets under the Old Testament and the Apostles under the New had but neither the High-Priest with his Clergie in the Old nor any Company of Prelates or Priests in the New since the Apostles ever had it And therefore though at the entreaty of A. C. I have considered this very A. C. p. 52. well yet I cannot no not in this Assisted sense thinke the Tradition of the present Church Divine and Infallible or such Company of men to be worthy of Divine and infallible Credit and sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Which I am sorrie A. C. should affirme so boldly as he doth What A. C. p. 52. That Company of men the Romane Bishop and his Clergie of Divine and Infallible Credit and sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Good God! Whither will these men goe Surely they are wise in their generation but that makes them never a whit the more the Children of light a S. Luke 16. 8. S. Luke 16. And could they put this home upon the world as they are gone farre in it what might they not effect How might they and would they then Lord it over the Faith of Christendome contrary to b 1. S. Pet. 5. 3. S. Peter's Rule whose Successours certainly in this they are not But I pray if this Company of men be infallibly assisted whence is it that this very Company have erred so dangerously as they have not only in some other things but even in this Particular by equaling the Tradition of the present Church to the written Word of God Which is a Doctrine unknowne to the a S. Basil goes as farre for Traditions as any For he sayes Parem vim habent ad pictatem L. de Sp. Sanct. c. 27. But first he speaks of Apostolicall Tradition not of the Tradition of the Present Church Secondly the Learned take exceptions to this Booke of S. Basil as corrupted BP Andr. Opusc. cont Peron p. 9. Thirdly S. Basil himself Ser. de Fide professes that he uses somtimes Agrapha sed ca solùm quae non sunt aliona à piâ secundum Scripturam sententiâ So he makes the Scripture their Touch-stone or tryall And therefore must of Necessity make Scripture superior in as much as that which is able to try another is of greater force and superiour Dignity in that use then the thing tried by it And Stapleton himselfe confesses Traditionem recentiorem posteriorem sicut particularem nullo modo cum Scripturâ vel cum Traditionibus priùs à se explicatis comparandam esse Stapleton Relect. Controv. 5. q. 5. A. 2. Primitive Church and which frets upon the very Foundation it selfe by justling with it So belike he that hath but halfe an indifferent eye may see this Assisted Company have erred and yet we must wink in obedience and think them Infallible But. A. C. would have me consider againe That A. C. p 52. it is as easie to take the Tradition of the present Church in the two fore-named senses as the present Scriptures printed and approved by men of this Age. For in the first sense The very Scriptures saith he considered as printed and approved by men of this Age can be no more then of Humane Credit But in the second sense as printed and approved by men assisted by God's Spirit for true Copies of that which was first written then we may give Infallible Credit to them Well I have considered this too And I can take the Printing and Approving the Copies of Holy-Writ in these two senses And I can and do make a difference betweene Copies printed and approved by meere morall men and men assisted by Gods Spirit And yet for the Printing onely a skilfull and an able morall man may doe better service to the Church then an illiterate man though assisted in other things by God's Spirit But when I have considered all this what then The Scripture being put in writing is a thing visibly existent and if any errour be in the Print 't is easily corrigible by b Ut §. 18. Nu. 4. Eâ—… S. Aug. L. 32. cont Faustum 〈◊〉 1â—… former Copies Tradition is not so easily observed nor so safely kept And howsoever to come home to that which A. C. inferres upon it namely That the A. C. p. 53. Tradition of the present Church may be accepted in these two senses And if this be all that he will inferre for his penne here is troubled and forsakes him whether by any checke of Conscience or no I know not I will and you see have granted it already without more adoe with this Caution That every Company of men assisted by Gods Spirit are not assisted to this height to be Infallible by Divine Authority For all this