more The very suggestion as it is by themselves heere rendred howsoever patched up of shreds cut out from severall parts and laid together againe for most advantage to their calumniation will yet speak no further but onely to this purpose For themselves set it down in stile not of Position but of bare Narration with these tearmes of Some hold It is the assertion The learnedst assent unto c. So that admit the points related were pure-pute Arminianisme yet so long as the Relator passeth no consent upon them I appeale unto your owne though never so much Cheverellized consciences my good Calumniators can there be inferred a just accusation If so upon as good ground in these tearmes I can informe against the most precisest Puritan in the Kingdome for as good Popery as any BELLARMINE hath any for as perfect blasphemy with the Tongue as ever The foole said or conceived in his heart I demand can you finde any assent of mine annexed nay finde you not rather assent denied Have you not read in that Passage these words which any honest plaine man would have cast into the Information but your selves I DETERMINE nothing in the question POSITIVELY If you did not see nor reade them your eyes were not your owne If you read them but marked them not your wits went on wooll-gathering at that instant If you read and marked them and yet did conceale them what became of your honesty in the interim You foully abused the world with false Informations Your deserts therefore I meddle not with onely I observe two pretty Presbyterian tricks of Legerdemaine First to alter the property by changing the state as if it were asserted and assented to which is barely related and no more Secondly to conceale that which is Positive and would discharge Mr. MOUNTAGU from your calumniation and leave a just taxation upon your selves For hee that professeth Hee doth not DETERMINE as Mr. MOUNTAGU in expresse and precise words doth in my Logick cannot bee said to consent nor concurre in opinion for himselfe but meerly suspendeth his judgement in the case and leaveth it indifferent and as he found it But this is not all I must yet convent your honesty somewhat further You have laid together into one Cento things broken and dismembred like ABSYRTUS'S limbs such as in my Answer unto the Gagge do not cohere nor ensue nor follow instantly upon each other If the Gagger or his Copesmates had dealt thus with me I would have cast in their teeth forgery and false-play and what not But you my deare Brethren are men of another stamp and yet hard to say whether barrell better herring I hope you did it out of simplicity with a good charitable pure intent to promote and set forward the Holie Cause not of Puritanicall refined malice So I take it And yet for my owne discharge Charity you knowe and practice beginneth at home take it not ill if I lay your dealing to open view The Romish Gagger whosoever he was laid downe his Proposition as hee would have it conceived against the approved and established Doctrine of the Church of England not against any either private fancie or more publick opinion of any Faction on foot or Sect prevailing in the Church of England yet that hee might play fast and loose a fashion ordinary with those of his party hee proposeth the imputation in ambiguous involved tearms In my Answer because I would draw the Question unto an issue and rightly state it I was to difference Opinions confounded by the Gagger which in and touching this Subject are not a few concerning the losse of and falling away from faith and therefore in the conclusion came home to distinguish them thus Some suppose that Faith cannot bee lost either totally or finally some that totally but not finally some that both totally and finally which is indeed the opinion of Antiquity and of your Schooles Some perceiving the Current of judgements for the losse thereof both totally and finally and withall considering the at least probability of Scriptures therefore put-in a new distinction of God and Man of first and second causes of Iustification Having reported these distinct and severall opinions of elder and moderne Divines without naming the Parties which I could have done without inlarging upon Particulars no difficult thing I demand of the Gagger who in ambiguities lurketh post aulaea Which of all these waies will you have the Proposition to be understood that Faith may bee lost c and so come up unto him thus You meane it may bee lost both totally and finally in regard of GOD who made no such absolute irrespective decree as also in respect of second causes in man without man about him against him All this is there as any man may perceive by way of bare narration And then for my owne opinion I conclude thus I DETERMINE nothing in this Question POSITIVELY that is neither for TOTALLY not FINALLY nor TOTALLY and FINALLY nor nor TOTALLY nor FINALLY not with reference unto GOD unto Man unto second Causes but leave them all as I found them unto their AUTHORS and ABETTORS resolving upon this Not to go beyond my bounds the consented resolved and subscribed ARTICLES of the Church of England in which nor yet in the Booke of COMMON PRAYER and other DIVINE OFFICES is there any Tye put upon me to resolve in this much-disputed Question as these Novellers would have it for if there be any it is for possibility of totall falling as we shall heare anon Thus standeth this Passage dismembred mis-shaped and abused by my Opposers to their advantage and small reputation for dealing in the case so insincerely and calumniously in their Informations And concerning the Particulars Wherein whom have I mis-reported If I can bee convicted I will reverse it They will not contest for the Roman Schooles I know as little for the Lutherans I suppose It is confessed on all hands that they hold falling from grace and losing of faith had and detest the contrary opinion as hereticall For the Tenet of Antiquity I cannot bee challenged S. AUGUSTINE and after him S. PROSPER affirme more than Mr. MOUNTAGU hitherto hath done Lib. de Bon. Persev CA. 6. Si autem regeneratus justificatus in malam vitam suâ voluntate relabitur iste non potest dicere Non accepi quia ACCEPTAM GRATIAM DEI suo in malum libero AMISIT arbitrio Ibid. CA. 13. Credendum est quosdam de filijs perditionis non accepto dono persever andi usque in finem in fide quae per dilectionem operatur incipere vivere aliquandiu IUSTE FIDELITER vivere POSTEA CADERE c. IDEM de Civ Dei XI XII Licèt Sancti de suae Perseverantiae praemio certi sint de ipsâ tamen Perseverantiâ suâ reperiuntur incerti Quis enim hominum se in actione profectúque justitiae perseveraturum usque in finem sciat nisi aliqua revelatione ab illo fiat
at least what danger consequent unto Error I should thinke it a preservative against danger rather inasmuch as the difficulty and obscurity pretended will in all probabilitie keep men off from meddling in it above their Modell and so from any consequent trouble or danger if any such can be about it I have not heard ARMINIUS taxed for any such assertion which if he had held he had beene in the right The Question of Freewill so canvassed and discoursed of up and downe is indeed a point and so ever hath beene held of very great obscurity fitting rather Schooles than popular eares or auditories If it bee not an obscure Question what then meane those many and manifold intricated and distracted divisions amongst men touching Freewill the nature state condition of it since ADAM'S fall the power efficacy and extent thereof in naturall morall civill divine indifferent good bad determined indetermined acts the concurrence and cooperation thereof with grace the constitution and connexion thereof with necessity prescience providence predestination the decrees purposes and will of GOD Protestants and Papists together by the eares Papists at odds amongst themselves and Protestants with Protestants upon no better tearms To my capacity that is obscure which is so much intangled with contradictory disputations upon all hands and so much perplexed with oppositions BELLARMINE a man no disparagement to your worth of as strong a braine and piercing apprehension as eyther of you M. WARD and M. YATES or any new upstart Master in Israel of the pack confesseth that the Concurrence of Grace and Free-will is Res omnino difficilis fortassè in hâc vitâ incomprehensibilis which saying of his our Bishop MORTON I hope nor Papist nor Arminian disliketh not and remembreth withall out of BENIUS this De modo quo liberum arbitrium vel movetur vel movet ad exercitium boni clamant alij rem non posse in hâc vitâ percipi sed omnem ingenij humani captum superare OCHAM SA CAIETANUS ALII This is strange Arminianisme is it not CHAP. IX Controversies unnecessarily multiplied the AUTHOR no Favourer of them Questions of obscurity and speculation not fit for Pulpits popular eares Freewill made no such controversie among moderate men either of the Pontifician or Protestant side as people are borne in hand withall INFORMERS BUt M. MOUNTAGU saith It might better have beene omitted and overpassed in silence especially the differences hanging as they doe upon such niceties and the controverted particulars being of no great moment upon due examination CHAP. XVI pag. CVII MOUNTAGU I Must and do confesse I am of that mind and thinke so still that the idle fellow the Gagger had done much better had merited more at GOD and mens hands to speake in his owne language and deserved better of the Church and have done better service to GOD Almighty as also might the major part by much of his Side if they would bee more sparing in multiplying controversies and disputes and so in disquieting the peace of the Church in points of that nature which doe not so concerne the state of mans soule or his walking in the waies of GOD'S commandement or knowing of Him the onely true GOD and whom he hath sent IESUS CHRIST Now was ARMINIUS also of that opinion If he were not how am I or can I bee an ARMINIAN for this If he were of this opinion then hath hee been deeply wronged by you and others that make him an Incendiary a Bontifeu a Flabellum of faction and sedition so much undeservedly in both Church and State that charge him so deeply as you have done with troubling the Netherlands and endangering that State by moving Disputes about Prescience Perseverance Predestination universall Grace Free-will and losse of Faith And surely M. MOUNTAGU deserved a more moderate and lesse empassioned censure than to bee informed against for moving of sedition which toucheth deep and will beare I trowe an ACTION of the Case who hath evermore detested that humour of Innovators that take the disquieting of things established a sufficient hire to set them on work who for feare of offending that way concealed both his owne opinion often and sometime the doctrine of the Church which haply he should not have done Is hee therefore seditious because he refused to dispute discourse or talke de omni Ente to contest for every thing ut pro aris focis to make a Case of faith or conscience of every speculation or because hee professeth his dislike of multiplying controversies in those kindes which increase rather discord and troubles in Church and in State than serve to edification It is strange that for wishing advising and in his owne particular using and ensuing that moderation thereby not to engarboile the Church and disturb the course of piety he should so by you and yours be blamed accused and traduced for a PAPIST and an ARMINIAN calumniated almost in every Ordinary by your means for a dangerous driver at Popery and Sedition being with one breath in the selfe-same points blamed for being so temperate for saying no more for not mooving favouring fomenting unnecessary quarrels and disunions in questions of speculation and of obscurity advising rather to reserve them for and referre them to the Schools though your honest simplicity or PURE charity thought it fit to conceale this his moderate wish or advice rather than to thunder and lighten in your Pulpits with them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by buzzing them into popular eares and capacities incapacious of them unable to comprehend them O vertiginem may I not well say that men should have such whirle-gigs in their brains and be so farre at variance with their owne wits as to imply contradiction in adjecto to charge M. MOUNTAGU because he had delivered such and such errors in Doctrine and yet to accuse him because he misliketh the delivering of such errors For in such and so great variety of errors or opinions touching free-will it may be that not one of them all is true but that more than one of them should be true it cannot be as CICERO spake in another case If OF the defenders of Free-will some beleeved not the necessity of grace which doctrine the IESUITES condemne of PELAGIANISME some denied that GOD can absolutely determine the will and are confuted by the most part some disliked that GOD should bee said by his exciting grace to work physically in man and are gaine-said by BENIUS as therein Adversaries unto Fathers and Councels some hold that GOD doth not morally determine the will and are excepted against by SUAREZ some gave to mans will in the Act of conversion an equality with yea a preeminence before grace and are therefore contradicted by others as repugnant unto Scriptures and to Fathers and finally some laboured to satisfie all doubts concerning the concurrence of grace and will and yet confesse they cannot assoile them as is confessed in these many words by the
in the kingdome He is indeed well acquainted with such Imputations as Papist and Arminian and I know not what the ordinary language of of our precise Professors against any man that is not as themselves MORE FURIOSO Calvinista And having had this measure often meted unto him from their verie great Zeale and very no-Charitie hee could have been contented to have contemned their malice the rather because a Scold cannot any better way bee charmed than by contempt but because Authoritie was drawne in to lye at the stake for conniving in points so dangerous but God knoweth how he could not possesse his soule in patience but thought himselfe in duetie and in conscience bound to cleere those points from Error which he delivered lest Sacred Authoritie might come in for Maintenance and Champetry as they would have it To come then to the Inscription Errors delivered must be his Tenents and avowed Propositions one way of these twain eyther by Affirmation or Negation For Errare saith S. AUGUST if yet our Informers and the Side regard what S. AUG saith est verum putare quod falsum est falsumque quod verum est vel certum habere pro incerto incertum pro certo sive falsum sit sive verum Howsoever there passeth omni modo a resolution for the thing erred in by Affirmation or Negation So or not so And therefore we cannot justly say He erreth or at all taxe him for Erring that neither denieth nor affirmeth that which is imputed unto him but only reporteth what he findeth This is the case of M. MOUNTAGU in all at least in the major part of these imputed Errors Hee is but a Narrator of other mens opinions suspending his owne judgement sometime peradventure when hee should not have so done out of a due respect unto Peace and Quietnesse in the Church sufficiently already disturbed and not the least by these Brethren and also because hee would not stirre the Hornets neasts of men affected otherwaies Secondly Error is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 respectively against something which is right as being an aberration from a Rule Now I demand of these so forward Informers those delivered Errors by M. MOUNTAGU and published Errors by Authoritie against what common Tenent doe they offend From what Rule are they an aberration I doe not find it expressed by the Informers Contrivers or Subscribers why in what against whose conclusions they are erroneous Against some Rule of Faith they must bee if Errors in Doctrine I know none I am told of none but the private opinions of the Informers or some Classicall resolutions of the Brethren Through all the severall XXI Articles or what you will call them of Popery and Arminianisme I finde no other proofe but Ipse dixit my words are related onely and you must take them upon M. YATES and M. WARD' 's bare words to bee Popery and Arminianisme for other proofe you cannot finde nor must expect So Magisteriall are our Purer Brethren those great Rabbines and Doctors in Israel having annexed unto their Penns and Pulpits infallibilitie of judgement it seemeth as well as the Pope of Rome unto his chayre Popular Spirits have evermore great opinion of their owne singular Illumination And you shall ever observe that each simple Ignoránte a classicall Dictator amongst the Covent tendereth his owne dreames and conceipts Simulachra modis volitantia miris no otherwise but as Oracles upon their owne bare words And such prevailing power have they upon their Proselites none living but Iesuites so great as they that their Sayings are held uncontroleable And hence it is that they vouchsafe us no proofe in their so many false Imputations Better Popery I will abide by it than any one proposition in M. MOUNTAGU For what difference betwixt their Dictates and Papall Decisions an abortive Embryo of the much groned-for Monarchie of our Puritanicall Parochiall would-be Popes over Kings and Kaesars and All that are called Gods Error then is ever against a rule In points of Faith Error is or should bee against the rule of Faith Scripture is they will not deny the rule of Faith as proceeding from Revelation divine the true Constat and Canon of Faith and Manners It is granted aberration from Scripture is Error The farther aberration the greater Error Bring mee in any one point or all points to this Rule Tye mee to it Try mee there Submitto fasceis I fall downe and adore it I would not I will not swerve from it But put the case in application of any Question unto that Rule there be dissents that I say one thing the Informers another the Collectors a third and in conclusion there bee quot homines tot sententiae how many men so many minds For the true and exact decision thereof what shall we do First in equity no man is to be his owne carver and Opinionibus vulgi in errorem rapimur Popular positions are not ever passable Nay rather most commonly it is true that Populus dicit ideò errat Now Private Spirits are of much weaker assurance therefore all that are not unlearnedly madde or insolently wedded unto their owne wills grant that as the Church is Custos regulae so doth it of right apply Examinanda unto that Rule The Church universall in generall causes each particular and private Church for speciall and particular and territoriall questions and querees These Informers against M. MOUNTAGU'S Errors unto what Rule will they stand or whither doe they appeale I disclaime as incompetent Popular Cantonings of dismembred Scripture and Private Interpretations of enforced Scripture I will not bee put over unto Classicall decisions nor that Idoll of some mens Reformation unto any Propheticall determinations in private Conventicles after Lectures For when departed The Spirit of God from mee or any other conformable Minister of the Church of England to speake unto them But because the doubts hang in the Church of England unto the Publicke Doctrine of the Church of England doe I appeale contayned in those two authorised and by All-subscribed Bookes of the Articles and Divine Services of the Church Let that which is against them on Gods name be branded with Error and as Error be ignominiously spunged out let the Author be censured as he well deserveth by Authority if there be any thing in that much maligned book of M. MOUNTAGU either against the Rule immediate the Word of God or against the Rule applied or expounded in the Dictates of the Catholick Church in general or the Tendries of our English Church in particular If I so be taken with the fact or evidence be cleer against me or I be convicted per testes idoneos to have erred thus I will recall and recant whatsoever is so exorbitant and further will deal so with my owne writings as they did with their curious books Act. 19. 19. Qui primas non habui sapientiae modestiae poenitentiae habebo secundas But to come at length up to and joyne issue with
onely supposed related and no more It may bee a custome amongst the Informers and others of that Tribe to dictate to their Popular Auditories out of their Pulpits tanquam de tripode though it be quicquid in buccam and the same to be received upon their bare words as divine Oracles whereupon they need not make any suppositions put no cases to bee demurred on seeing they are ubique and in omnibus peremptory resolved and conclusive But with us it is not so we are not so happy to have our bare words passe we must prove what wee speake and well is it if so and then we finde credence They and the Iesuites are rare men to leade mens Faith and Beleefe so in a string In this passage against me it being ad oppositum and they like enough to bee demanded Proofes for what they say all their accusations of Arminianisme and of Popery though they bee false and slanderous yet are they Magisteriall You cannot finde so much as any one proofe annexed unto any of the imputed Errors or brought in to manifest Ideò this or that is an Error Their Stile runneth These are his words or Thus he writeth c. supposing all men will at least should take it upon their words That what hee so writeth is an Error Such Illuminates are our Classicall Brethren May they be intreated a little to descend from this their Chaire of Infallibility and yeeld somewhat according unto reason by producing that Rule against which touching Finall Perseverance the words produced if so be they are mine every way to all intents and purposes doe offend and for which they may justly bee stiled Errors The Rule produced upon tryall and application M. MOUNTAGU must eyther stand or fall Till then he appealeth to all indifferent censures for suspension of their judgements concerning Errors thus by him Delivered and Published by Authority In the Interim to come somewhat neerer unto the Error heer informed against Doth ARMINIUS maintaine touching finall Perseverance you must tell mee my good Informers for I have not read him that sometime the Called and Elect of God the Chosen ones and Iustified by Faith such as S. PETER was though they doe fall totally for a Time shall yet recover necessarily againe and not fall away finally or for ever If this be Arminianisme and so his conclusion then therein He holdeth with ARMINIUS But I have bin assured that ARMINIUS did hold as the Lutherans in Germany doe not only Intercision for a Time but also Abscission and Abjection too for ever That a man Called and Iustified freely through the grace of GOD in CHRIST might fall away again from Grace Totally finally and become a cast-away as IUDAS was for ever For S. PETER upon admission of this Passage as your selves have related it in your calumniatory Information by M. MOUNTAGU'S conclusion did not could not fall finally for CHRIST prayed for him that he might not fall and CHRIST was ever heard in that hee prayed for So that out of your owne mouthes M. MOUNTAGU is acquitted of Arminianisme for if He say any thing to the point it is that S. PETER could not fall finally from Faith nor lose it for ever irrecoverably For say you These are his words Though S. PETER fell totally he fell not eternally that is hee recovered and persevered unto the end and so touching finall Perseverance at least He teacheth in your own confession no otherwise than your selves do Thus Pure malice and indiscreet zeale make men many times lose their witts they know not where I adde if M. MOUNTAGU be an Arminian you are rather Papists for I demand In denying and forswearing CHRIST did S. PETER fall or did he not fall If abnegation and abjuration and execration will inforce a fall he did Now if he fell he needs must fall totally or finally for Cedo tertium a man falleth not who is not off or down from the Place Grace Multi dantur ad gratiam recessus hee that falleth to day may rise againe to morrow hold out unto the end receive the reward of Righteousnesse in finall Perseverance bee crowned with glory and immortalitie I say no more than you have subscribed if you look unto it After we have received the HOLY GHOST wee may DEPART FROM GRACE given and FALL into Sinne and by the grace of GOD wee may arise againe and amend our lives Artic. XVI Nec beatum dixeris quenquam ante mortem quamdiu enim vivimus in certamine sumus quamdiu sumus in certamine nulla est certa victoria was Catholick Doctrine of old But heer also as in the former passage these Informers mistake me for their owne advantage for I speak but only representatively according to the opinion and Tenent of the Roman Schooles I appeale unto their Honesty at least wise Knowledge are not my wordes laid downe directly thus For in YOUR opinion Iustifying faith may diminish and may be abolished and lost Now Iustification being in an instant c. If in their opinion it may be lost namely faith which justifieth then Iustification which is an Effect of faith may also bee lost and may bee recovered after such losse For things transitory are in a like habitude unto being and not being may cease to be and be againe After such losse of Faith and Love transitory in their opinion they againe may revert and finde a being but yet still in their opinion So all heer Delivered Errors or not Errors so or so is still in their opinion not the iudgement specified of M. MOUNTAGU My goodly Brethren this is no faire play to fasten that on me as my Assertion which precisely I relate from anothers mouth which I remember not but as the Doctrine of the Church of Rome and upon that their Doctrine by Them maintained by Him related doe inferre against a Papist a plaine Non sequitur from his owne Tenents unto an inconsequent Argument by Them inferred and opposed against the true and Catholick doctrine of the Church of England touching Iustification by Faith alone CHAP. IV. Of FALLING FROM GRACE The Tenet of Antiquity therein The doctrine of the Church of England in the 16th Article the Conference at Hampton Court the Book of Homilies and the publick Liturgie INFORMERS ANd againe Some hold that Faith may be lost totally and finally which is indeed the Assertion of Antiquity The Learnedst in the Church of ENGLAND assent unto Antiquitie in that Tenet which the Protestants in GERMANIE maintaine at this day having assented unto the Church of ROME MOUNTAGU A Ntiquum obtinent These men are still the same Calumniators and runne still along with all one indirect dealing Their Information in direct tearms standeth thus To make report and no more but to make report of Arminianisme if yet it be Arminianisme which is reported is in point of opinion to bee an ARMINIAN in point of Arianisme with these men to be an ARIAN for M. MOUNTAGU in this case hath done no
assignements devised unto them Nam si omnem malignitatem si tantam malitiem excogitatam DEUS exactor innocentiae odit indubitatè quaecunque condidit non in exitum operum constat condidisse quae damnat licèt eadem opera per ea quae condidit administrentur Quando haec sit tota ratio damnationis perversa administratio conditionis à conditis in the opinion of TERTULLIAN and not any previous NECESSITATING Decree So that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 GOD cannot be blamed nor accused in the judgement of CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 GOD is no causer of what is evill which the Heathens saw and taught as hee there at large discourseth out of them And children have read it in the Poet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 They accuse GOD but the cause is in themselves Their owne disposednesse to evill no necessitating Decree maketh them so liable unto just punishment As if he had read it in the wise man GOD made man right but he sought out many inventions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We were made saith NAZIANZENE that we might be well and happy and such we were being made estated in Paradise of Felicity there to enjoy pleasure in aboundance we forfeited our seisure upon our owne Transgression Home and pithily as his stile and phrase is concise and sententious not diffused His fellow and faithfull ACHATES in course of life and studies Great S. BASIL hath a Sermon to the purpose That GOD is not Author or Cause of evill neither poenae nor culpae as they speak That malum poenae is from culpa meerly originally that culpae malum is of man himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not out of any positive act of GOD upon him which he instanceth in PHARAOH whom GOD saith he found so did not fashion or make so and having in long suffering forborne him long ne sic quidem morti illum tradidit donec ipsemet se praecipitem dedit And though we read saith he in the Apostle of Vessels of wrath fitted and disposed unto Perdition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let us not so conceive it as if PHARAOH had been made an evill vessell for in so saying or opining we transfer the fault in Him from Him to HIM that made him But reading in the Text of the Apostle Vessels conceive it so and beleeve it that All we and every one of us were and was made 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for and to some profitable and behoofefull use S. PAUL saith that vessels of dishonour if they be purged may become vessels of honour which were impossible if GOD had made them so and inevitably decreed them to continue so for ever Therefore S. BASIL might well bid us take heede of that sense And because ADAM was the root of all and ADAM'S case an exemplar of all mankinde concerning ADAM he writeth thus Erat prius ADAM in sublimi constitutus non loco quidem sed arbitrio cùm statim animâ imbutus in Coelum laetus suspexit majorem in modum ob illa visa gavisus amore ardenti complecteretur cum cujus munere tanto frueretur beneficio vita donandus esset immortali ubi vocis divinae et commercij fruitus societate cum Angelis ex aequo Archangelis aeternùm regnaret Qui luxurians veluti prae satietate corporea praetulit intellectualibus atque ita excidit paradiso depulsus est spe illâ immortalitatis And then concludeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He became evill NOT NECESSITATED ANY WAY but through his owne misadvisednesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thus he fell to transgresse through his wicked owne-will and because of transgression was lyable unto death Nor was there any absolute decree passed upon IUDAS to make him a Traytor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Of his owne proper motion he undertooke the Treason saith CHRYSOSTOME to let us know that of his owne accord and mind therto disposed he ran headlong upon that audacious transgression no way moved or caused but onely that a wicked heart within Him issued out that Treason into which he thrust himselfe Unlesse from damned Hereticks or stoicall Philosophers I never yet read in Antiquity of any prime previous determining Decree by which men were IRRESPECTIVELY denied grace excluded from glory or enforced to salvation as they must be that cannot perish if they would nor can be saved though most they desire DEUS quippè apud quem non est iniquitas cujus universae viae misericordia veritas omnium hominum bonus Conditor justus est ordinator Neminem indebitè damnans neminem debitè liberans Nostra plectens cùm punit noxios sua tribuens cùm facit justos Nam nec damnati justa quer monia nec justificati verax est arrogantia si vel ille dicat non merüisse se poenam vel iste asserat merüisse se gratiam saith PROSPER and what S. AUGUSTINE taught in this point the world knoweth But it mattereth not now as it should seem by these Promoters what he or his compeers taught nor much what the Church of England tendreth we must be confined unto Forrayne opinions of some late Writers and tyed to the Conclusions of Dort I derogate nothing from that Synode nor any particular man in that Synode For those Divines that were there of our Church the principall of them sometime was my worthy friend and acquaintance since is my Reverend and much reverenced Diocesan the major part of them were my antient acquaintance likewise and one of them brought up with me of a childe so that personall respects rather seem to affie me unto that Synod And indeed I do reverence the Conveners for their places worth and learning but I have nothing at all to doe with their Conclusions farther than they doe consent and agree to and with the Conclusions and Determinations of that Synod of London which established the Doctrine of our Church to which I am bound and have subscribed If those Conclusions goe along with these I embrace them willingly will stand unto them and as I can propugne them If they be Contra I will none of them if Praeter I may choose to receive them For I am not bound unto them no Law directeth mee the Church doth not compell me The Synod was Forinsecus and but partiall I see no reason why any of those worthy Divines of our Church there present should take any offence at my dissenting who had no authority that I know of to conclude me more than I do at them for differing from me in their judgements Quisque abundet in sensu suo For I am not yet acquainted with any obligatory or compulsory act for or to the contrary whereby the Church in generall or any man in particular is bound or tyed to receive abbet maintaine or beleeve all or any of the Articles concluded on in that Synod farther than they agree with the AUTHORISED Doctrine of the
required by the Roman Writers to make it rewardable as far as they are positive no Protestant disalloweth of To those conditions may others be added INFORMERS THese are his words This is your owne doctrine in the Romane Schooles and so farre the Protestants for these conditions do go along with you MOUNTAGU THis doctrine And what doctrine is this that there is merit of condignity that it is so farre forth due unto good works as that through and for the worke it selfe wrought and performed we may deserve and challenge upon desert or else GOD should wrong us grace goodnesse heaven happinesse at GOD'S hands 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I never said it never thought it doe detest it from my heart That doctrine which is to be found in the specified place is touching the quality not the validity concerning the condition not the imputation or account of a good worke which conditions specified and remembred by me are 1. That it be morally good not simply evill 2. Freely wrought and not out of compulsion 3. By man yet in this life not after death 4. In the state of grace and not by any naturall man without GOD. Of these conditions which doe not exclude other what Protestants doe not allow I adde and may adde many more Faith is necessarily required in the person before that any thing hee doth can please GOD. For whatsoever is not of faith is sinne These Informers it seemeth are otherwise minded for they traduce and calumniate me for a Papist who require as necessary these conditions unto a good worke which were never to my knowledge denied untill now And these are the conditions concerning which only I write So far the Protestants go along with you Concerning which consent in these particulars I confesse I thought it was reall and I think so still I never could finde I never did imagine I doe not beleeve any Protestant living setting your selves aside so ignorant peevish or prophane as to deny those conditions specified Now it being as I conceived agreed upon on all sides concerning the necessity of them I did make this conclusion unto the GAGGER If your texts doe contradict this either expressely or obliquely look you unto it it concerneth you as much as us And why might I not make it when they oppose a Position in the Protestants hands in which themselves are as deeply interessed as Protestants are But the men proceed to a specification of my consent more particularly CHAP. XIII GOD surely rewardeth good works according to his promise of his free bounty and grace INFORMERS ANd in that very page his words are If this be your Merit wee contradict it not And this is the Merit you plead for MOUNTAGU ANd so it is For all the Gagger's Texts of Scripture plead for that Merit I speak of and no other And that Merit is no more but this Verily there is a REWARD for the righteous doubtlesse there is a GOD that judgeth the earth A point of Popery put into my mouth by the Prophet DAVID and that totidem verbis And so King DAVID is become a Papist as well as I. For my words upon which that inference is made are REWARD in heaven no man denyeth REVVARD appointed for our good workes all doe confesse If this be your MERIT we contradict it not Doe you Dare you doe it that there is no REWARD for the righteous Cast the lye then into the Psalmists throate Psal XIX XI In keeping of them GOD'S Commandements there is GREAT REVVARD and unto him that said GOD REVVARDETH everie man according to his worke not onely according to the Qualitie of the worke that he that soweth of the flesh shall of the flesh reape Corruption and he that soweth in the spirit shall of the spirit reape glory and honour and immortality but according to the degree and proportion of his worke He that soweth sparingly shall reape sparingly and he that soweth liberally shall reape liberally Not of works or for works but according unto works rather For there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Alia est merces liberalitatis gratiae aliud virtutis stipendium aliae laboris remuneratio saith S. AMBR. specially in the intercourse betwixt GOD and man where Non debendo sed promittendo DEUS se fecit debitorem S. AUGUST And from this no Protestant I know dissenteth I am sure a speciall man in your bookes though I hold him of another spirit and Sect than you better by farre precisely setteth downe the same in his Comment upon the Epistle to the Galathians See then Reader the sincere and honest dealing of these misdeeming Informers that accuse me of Popery for positive Scripture by a trick of concealement in saying GOD REWARDETH GOOD WORKES CHAP. XIV The Church of England holdeth no such absolute certainty of salvation in just persons as they have of other objects of Faith expressely and directly revealed by GOD INFORMERS TOuching the Doctrine of the certainty of salvation having cited BELLARMINE'S opinion he hath these words This BELLARMINE assigneth and this is enough Faction may transport a man to wrangle for more but when once they ioine issue the difference will not be much CHAP. XXII pag. 186. MOUNTAGU ET quid haec ad IPHICLI Boves what hath this to doe with merit of good workes whereto by the Informers it is consigned Neither in my opinion nor yet in BELLARMINE'S judgement doth Certaintie or Incertainty of salvation depend so necessarily upon Merit or Demerit of good workes If a man continue constant in the course of good workes he is sure and certaine of salvation in BELLARMINE'S judgement and in my opinion also though differently Causally in his as procured by them Consequently in mine as following of them But whether hee that doth good workes be certaine of Salvation that is shall continue to the end faithfull constant in doing good workes and so obtaine Salvation the promise of GOD behighted unto those that doe good is another Question of a different and disparate Nature But to leave these Extravagancies and come to the point unto assurance of which they speake It being by the Gagger fastned unto our Church ignorantly or maliciously verie absurdly as almost everie particular in that Pamphlet is That everie one ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his Salvation and to hold that he is of the number of the Elect and predestinate unto eternall life I tooke him short for such his conclusion so generall that everie one ought singuli generum so the words intend to assure himselfe whereas that assurance upon which the poore fellow grounded his imputation resting upon the infallible purpose and decree of GOD'S predestination of the Elect was by the So perswaded in the Church of England for the Church of England it selfe was not of that opinion restrained unto some only and not enlarged unto all as the man hath it Every one ought Secondly that concerning even those some the Church
non dicitur Qui potest facere faciat sed Omnis arbor quae non facit fructum bonum exscindetur in ignem mittetur Consilium qui libenter audierit fecerit majorem habebit gloriam Praeceptum verò qui non impleverit nisi subvenerit poenitentia poenam evadere non poterit You cannot denie this constant resolution of Antiquity Change therefore your manners or your minds Be Papists with me or Rebells without me As for mee you are like to be alone I hold it no obligation you doe therefore you are tyed to obey That commandement Matth. v. you will not denie Be you perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect Now if this be a Precept If thou wilt be perfect go sell all thou hast and give it to the poore it is a part of that perfection being named in either place But I leave you to bethinke your selves better I conclude with S. CHRYSOSTOME 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Had this beene a Law and Commandement it should have beene tendred unto him at the first it ought to have beene digested in forme of a commandement and law and not have beene brought in as it is by way of counsaile and advice For where he saith Possesse nor Silver nor Gold this speech runneth in commanding forme But when hee saith If thou wilt be perfect go and sell he speaketh it as counsailing and advising only Now to Counsaile and Command are not one and the same thing he that commandeth will have the thing commanded observed upon any hand he that counselleth and adviseth leaving it to choice and election of a man to doe or not doe it maketh him Lord and Ruler of his owne actions Thus and much more to purpose S. CHRYSOSTOME in that place if you view him If he and his fellow Ancients be Papists be it so I am content to be so accounted For I meane to be a Papist with them rather than a Noveller with you And so I proceed CHAP. XVIII Touching LIMBUS PATRUM The Dreames of Papists about Limbus Patrum related and rejected The state of mens soules after death The Place proportioned to their state The soules of the blessed Fathers before CHRISTS ascension in heavenly Palaces yet not in the third and highest heavens nor in that fulnes of joy which they have now and more of which they shall have heereafter The opinion of old and new Writers Our Canons not to be transgressed The Doctrine and Faith of the Church of England concerning the Article of CHRIST'S descent into Hell The disadvantage we are at with our Adversaries Everie Novellers Fancie printed and thrust upon us for the generall Tenet of our Church The plaine and easie Articles of our CREED disturbed and obscured by the wild dreames of little lesse than blasphemous men by new Models of Divinity by Dry-fats of severall Catechismes The Beleefe of Antiquitie The Authour and It farre from POPERY INFORMERS HOwsoever in words he denyeth Limbus Patrum yet thus he writeth The Patriarchs Prophets and Fathers that lived and died before CHRIST the Scripture resolveth that they were not there where now they are in the highest heavens and glorious there where the glorified body of CHRIST is now residing at the right hand of GOD. CHAP. XLI pag. 277. MOUNTAGU THUS hee writeth And what if he write so Why then hee upholdeth Limbus Patrum His Words and Opinion are farre asunder So said your LIMBOMASTIX concerning the Descent into Hell As CHRIST was buried so also it is to be beleeved that CHRIST went into Hell saith the Church of England Therefore hee went thither saith that Ignoránte according to this opinion to fetch up the soules of the Fathers that were not there Iust as you will have it with M. MOUNTAGU in his opinion But good Master Informers bethinke your selves go into your Studies again and look better upon your books You understand not the state and condition of Limbus Patrum nor yet the Descent of CHRIST into Hell To assure you I am for my opinion dreame you what you will otherwise and what you please absolutely of the mind of all Antiquity that the soules of the Blessed Dead separated from their bodies and Gathered as the Scriptures speake unto their Fathers before CHRISTS Resurrection from Death to Life and his Ascension into Heaven that departed hence in the hope and assurance of GODS promises and in the expectation of better things to come were not yet then in Coelo propriè dicto summo illo glorioso whereas now they are in companie of all the holy Angels with the glorified bodie of our SAVIOUR farre above all things in heaven and earth And yet for all this I am not for him that thereupon ignorantly and maliciously inferreth I hold with beleeve or conceit anie such Limbus Patrum as the Church of Rome hath fancied unto her selfe and tendred unto her Profelites drawne and derived out of that negative opinion of Antiquity ill understood and ill applyed As if because they were not so in heaven per omnia as now they are they must needs be so in hell as they conceive them to be the state whereof is imagined this LIMBUS Patrum is so called by the Papists à subjecto contento which they doe imagine to be the uppermost Fringe as the word signifieth or the Verge of Hell For as if some of their Masters had beene sent thither to take a survay thereof they doe quarter out that infernall Clime into foure Regions all agreeing in the particulars though with some difference about the quartering and confining That the Regions are foure they all agree Hell properly so called of the Damned Purgatory Limbus puerorum and Limbus patrum For the uppermost and lowermost they all agree but differ about the site of Purgatory and Limbus puerorum they cannot resolve which is the uppermost of these two In Hell of the Damned they imagine and rightly eternall losse of happinesse in exclusion from GOD as also most insufferable eternall paine In Purgatory there is some question whether the losse be partiall or not for they are conceited to have at least somtimes the intervening society of holy Angels who cannot but impart unto them some glimmering of heavenly consolation and yet the pain though not eternal but only temporary is set down to bee equall unto Hell torments Unto the Limbus Infantum they have fastned eternall losse and deprivation of GOD without sensible paine in Limbus patrum temporarie losse but no paine Limbus puerorum and Hell of the Damned in their opinions endure for ever Purgatory shall cease and be no more at the day of judgement but for Limbus patrum the date thereof is and was long since expired Now there is no such mansion or habitation of soules they are resolved but what is become of it or how imployed they are not resolved Some imagine it now all one with that Limbus Infantum And peradventure there was need to have the roome
enlarged the inhabitants increasing and growing on so fast more than they did in the dayes of old as in popular Cities the multitude groweth greater every day and greater So that Limbus puerorum in their opinion hath and out of conveniency it was necessary it should swallow up Limbus Patrum ANTE adventum CHRISTI saith one sancti Patres descendebant eò Nunc verò pueri qui absque Baptismo discedunt sine poenâ sensibili detinentur Others do conceive of it as inane vacuum and this is the commonly received opinion of the Romane Schooles In effect therefore the Popery of Limbus Patrum is this That in regard of state the Fathers who died before CHRIST were quoad locum in a part of HELL in the uppermost Region of Hell and quoad statum without all paine as also without all joy without fruition or seeing of GOD That at CHRIST'S descent into Hell which was locally only into this part of Hell but virtually and powerfully into all places and regions of Hell they were drawn out thence led forth in triumph and translated into Heaven in regard of place unto seeing enjoying and fruition of GOD in respect of state But this is not the Tenet of Antiquity A man may deny their being in Heaven and yet not inferre they were thus in Hell Now to come to the point The question is concerning their soules onely for their bodies it is confessed in ordinarie dispensation doe sleep in the dust It is confessed on both sides which is most materiall concerning them That being immortall in their better Part after dissolution and separation they still have a Being and are subsisting in aliquo ubi for though the nature of a soule is not to be circumscriptively in place as TERTULLIAN fancied as M. YATES and M. WARD are when they are in their Pulpits yet are they confined in their proper ubi definitively and indistanter as they speake that is they have not nor can have an ubique-subsistence but a determined and defined Being heere at that instant they are not there for omnipresence is the absolute Peculiar of the ALMIGHTY Truely then and indeed they must and doe subsist in place or rather ubi though where and how who can tell For the Scripture content with their state and beeing is silent for particular touching their place And accordingly the best learned of all times and places have if not declined quaestionem loci yet not beene curious nor resolved for it So heere is a maine difference at the first betwixt the Papistry of Rome and M. MOUNTAGU'S Popery They de fide resolving the place to have been thus He returning Ignoramus we are not ascertained we cannot tell AGAIN in that their Vbi wheresoever subsisting as they had Being and Subsistence so did they also performe actions of life and motion congruous and convenient unto their nature and kind And though they are said to be at rest yet is it qualified with In what sort They rest from their Labours saith the SPIRIT where the latter word Labors giveth species unto and determineth the former word Rest For all maner rest is not predicated of them not such as that rest of the bodie in the grave They rest not as in a sleepe out of minde without motion as not in action at all as the frame of Nature did in the dayes of IOSUA or as ADAM in that deepe sleepe wherein EVA was framed out of his side Thus to rest is contrary to their nature and condition intellectuall though it hath beene the opinion of some Popes they say and is of some Anabaptists at this day such as against whom M. CALVIN wrote his Psychopannychia But being now separated from the bodie they live move exercise performe and put in practice acts naturall and coïncident unto their proper kindes understanding conceiving willing judging loving rejoycing and such like proper acts of naturall rationall intellectuall creatures Next inasmuch as there are and have beene alway in this life two sorts amongst the sonnes of men Beleevers in CHRIST for their profession Holy in course for their life and conversation then Misbeleevers and faithlesse in regard of GOD Wicked mis-agents in respect of living so proportionably there are and have beene ever two states and conditions of the soules of men in their separation after death some rewarded with happinesse in their being for ever with GOD some condemned unto woe and wretchednesse for ever estranged from GOD. All men when they dye as sooner or later all do and shall in regard of that unchangeable Law of kinde Thou shalt Dye the Death are said in SCRIPTURE To goe the way of all flesh or of All the Earth for never man had a priviledge of absolute or totall exemption And in regard of their being or subsisting after their death are said To sleepe with their Fathers touching their bodies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and to be gathered to their Fathers or their People in respective of their soules were they good or bad For all are a society a collective people eyther in happy or in a miserable state The good goe to enjoying of happinesse without end the wicked to enduring of torments everlasting Thus is their state diversified to their deserving and herein the Scripture speaketh plaine and evident But now for Place we are not resolved so particularly Certaine it is in common course of kinde Place is ever fitted disposed proportioned to state and condition of the therein placed And therefore when this mortall shall have put on immortality when those that have won many unto righteousnesse shall shine as the Sunne and be clothed with glory and immortality in the day of the resurrection of the just then we reade of a fitted Place a new heaven and a new earth Now fitting unto this two-fold state and condition of soules after death I beleeve and professe that evermore there was is and shall be two severall different distinct proportionable Places or Vbies for them knowne ever commonly by that generall name of Hell and Heaven I beleeve also and professe that the soules of the Fathers Kings Prophets Priests Patriarchs righteous and good men that lived and dyed before CHRIST came in the flesh in eandem communem spem nobiscum venerunt expectantes CHRISTUM as IGNATIUS speaketh and so when they were gathered unto their people went not into Hell locally in respect of Place because not to Hell interpretatively that is into wretchednesse in regard of state They went to Heaven locally as to their proper Vbi they went to Heaven figuratively that is into happinesse and health into joy in heavenly palaces unto GOD into the presence of GOD the Tabernacles of peace into Paradise ABRAHAMS bosome Eadem est fides nostra quae fuit illorum Hoc nos credimus esse factum quod illi crediderunt faciendum They hoped to be saved in through and by him in whom we doe hope They lived by that faith as well as we though not
mutare sedes so had they very few I grant or no pictures at all in publicke use amongst them not so much as for ornament sake And the reason was because they lived continually amongst Pagans and were themselves for the most part such as had abandoned and come over from Paganisme unto CHRIST that were bred in brought up in inured to and fast settled unto Idolatry in Image-worship Therefore they spake against them with some tartnesse and inveighing sort least happely by conversing with or neighbouring upon Pagans or through former use of being mis-led by those Pagans which was the case of the Israelites in Egypt and the bordering Nations upon Canaan the novell and tender shoots of Christianity might receive hurt and learne to worship Idols as those Pagans did In like sort peradventure OUR Predecessors and Fathers comming late out of Popery living neere unto Papists and Popish times conversing with them having beene nuzzled and brought up amongst them and knowing that Images used to be crept unto incensed worshipped and adored amongst them might if they were suffered to stand as they did put them in minde of their former practice induce them to doe as they had sometime done at least in heart to worship and adore them therefore in a godly zeale such as moved EZECHIAS to destroy the braesen serpent they spake thus vehemently and indeed hyperbolically against them For the people with whom they then dealt were by all meanes to bee preserved from the taint and tincture of their superstitious practices And for this cause I say it may seem the Church-Governours of those times in their popular Sermons tooke that course which the ancient Fathers did and stretched their exhortations and enforcements as also their dehortations somewhat hard upon the Tentors For in their dogmaticall resolutions and doctrinall positions they are more reserved and goe not so farre We may do well then to consider why wherefore when and to what manner men these popular Sermons were made and doe speake and not presse everie passage hand over head for advantage I rest in that judgement and censure which our Church hath passed upon them Artic. xxxv where it is said in terminis THEY containe a godly and wholesome doctrine necessary for THESE times the times in which and for which this Homily against Images and the perill of Idolatry was specially made To conclude Images may be had and made but with some limitation The Image of GOD Almighty is not to bee made at all and no Image is to bee made for religious worship no not of relation as they speak which yet is minimae Entitatis but ut ornatui sint ut memoriae ut Historiae and that they may bee made for such ends no law of GOD forbiddeth saith our GAMALIEL CHAP. XXIV Touching signing with the SIGNE of the CROSSE To signe with the signe of the Cross out of Baptisme or upon the brest c. no more superstition than to signe in Baptisme or upon the forehead The practice of the ancient Church The reasons that mooved them that might moove us to use often signing They lived with Pagans and wee with Puritans both deriders of the signe of CHRIST'S Cross INFORMERS OF signing our selves not children onely in Baptisme with the signe of the Cross he speaketh very superstitiously We use signing with the signe of the Crosse both in the forehead and elsewhere Caro signatur ut anima muniatur said TERTULLIAN and so we MOUNTAGU NOT onely in Baptisme Tell me then are ye come so farre home unto the Church of England as to allow signing with the Crosse in Baptisme that Popish Ceremony as your Forefathers and Patriarches of the schisme were wont to exclaime against it There is hope you may grow in time upon better advice in love and practice with some of M. MOUNTAGU'S Popery with the signe of the CROSSE in the forehead and elsewhere If it be not superstitious to signe in the forehead why is it to signe any other part of the bodie why more out of Baptisme than in Baptisme Is one part of the body more subject and liable to superstition than another the brest or belly or armes than is the forehead Superstition is in Subjecto or in Actione In that if you fasten superstition you must give us some reason why one part is more subject and liable unto it than another and wherfore you put this difference betwixt the parts And concerning actions religious and pious actions are more liable to superstition to be committed in them than common civill or ordinary actions be nay all superstition whatsoever reflecteth upon religion It is not but in such acts as bee of themselves or appliedly acts of religion and piety Therefore in all probability if it bee superstitious to signe the forehead without Baptisme it is more superstitious to do it in Baptisme Nor can the Injunction of the Church give any priviledge of immunity unto a superstitious action of it self to bee used in point of piety without superstition for if to signe with the signe of the Crosse be superstitious in it selfe as by your opinion it seemeth to bee then cannot the Church command it to bee used on the forehead in Baptisme because no act of the Church can acquit and discharge the action of that naturall and inherent property If it be not superstitious absolutely originally and in it self eat your words of superstition and elsewhere or give us some reason why extra Baptismum it should bee superstition to use it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or to signe the brest forehead legs head or any one part or all the body and not so in Baptisme for the forehead The ancient Church used it in Baptism as we do TERTULLIAN spake of Baptism the words remembred Caro signatur ut anima muniatur which he learned not of MARCION nor MONTANUS as some have fabled but of the practice of the Church before they were born And you shall finde if you overlook the place againe that I remembred the words for Baptisme and not otherwise you have chopt off the vinculum that tyed my words together and relate them as if I cited TERTULLIAN in generall tearms for any signing with the Crosse in any place at any time For which action though lawfull I doe not alledge him I say though lawfull for where is it forbidden What hindereth but that I may signe my self with the signe of the Crosse in any part of my body at any time at night when I goe to bed in the morning when I rise at my going out at my returning home The ancient Church so used it out of Baptisme ordinarily and so may wee for ought I knowe without just scandall and superstition The practice of Antiquity you will not deny you cannot if you knowe any thing in Antiquity Therefore I will not trouble you with testimonies you shall onely have some reasons for their practice First out of CYRIL against IULIAN remembred in the Apologie against