Selected quad for the lemma: opinion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
opinion_n	according_a	church_n	true_a	959	5	4.6802	3	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A87879	An answer to the Marques of Worcester's last paper; to the late King. Representing in their true posture, and discussing briefly, the main controversies between the English and the Romish Church. Together with some considerations, upon Dr Bayly's parenthetical interlocution; relating to the Churches power in deciding controversies. To these is annext, Smectymnuo-Mastix : or, short animadversions upon Smectymnuus in the point of lyturgie. / By Hamon L'Estrange, Esqr.	L'Estrange, Hamon, 1605-1660.	1651 (1651)	Wing L1187; Wing L1191; Thomason E1218_2; ESTC R202717	68,906	120

without controul No sure admit they could prescribe for 1600 years must prescription prescribe and out Truth But can they prescribe for 1600 years in any one point where in they differ from us Can they in many for 1000 can they in some for 600 their grand Novelty of Transubstantiation will tell them no and it is well known the slender possession their errours have had hath not been so quiet so peaceable so undisturbed but that Truth hath made her constant and continual claim As for their evidence out of the word of God out of the word of God it is I confesse but it would do much better in it And in it they have so little as their greatest Clerks acknowledge that prayer to the Saints worshipping of their Images celebrating their festivals the not iterating of the Sacraments of Orders and confirmation are taught in Scripture neither expresly nor by implication So Bannes from whom Canus differeth onely in superadding the Sacrifice of the Eucharist As for the Fathers and Councels witnessing to that evidence such as the Scripture evidence is for the Papists such is their witnessing to that evidence just so and no more which more explicitely is just none at all For I challange them to produce any one Father of the first 500 years who held and maintained any one point of Doctrine as the Councel of Trent now holds where differing from us of Doctrine I say for in ceremonies they may I grant find many presidents in antiquity conformable to theirs As for our own acknowledgements sure his Lordship did not in good earnest and seriously think we Reputed and own'd Luther the Hussites the Waldenses for Ours no we always constantly urge them as Romish Catholiques though in some particulars they oppugned her Doctrine Thus his Lordships specious and flashy conclusion is reduced to a meer nothing And his Majesty was at this brunt in no great danger of becoming the Marques his convert Certain Considerations upon Dr BAYLY'S Interlocution concerning the True Church its being Judge of Scripture THe Doctor's Invective against Sacriledge shall create him no trouble from me I desire not to meddle with Impertinencies Since your Majesty was pleased to discharge the Watch which I had set before the Door of my Lips The Watch before the Door of your Lips was it seems of your own setting and because so 't is like his Majesty thought fit to discharge it not desiring to leave them without a Guard but hoping they might be relieved with that which the Prophet David call'd to God for Psalm 141. v. 3. I shall make bold to put your Majesty in minde of holding my Lord to the Demand which your Majesty once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were throughly determined all Controversies not onely between your Majesty and his Lordship but also all Controversies that ever were would soon be decided at a short race end And is there no way no means to end Controversies but by that which this fifteen hundred years and upward hath been disputed what it is and where to finde it Did God provide so ill for us as to leave us in suspense concerning the main points of Faith untill that Church which is yet in the clouds shall define what is the true sense of that Scripture which must guide us to eternal happinesse And if after 15 hundred years debate this Church were but in view some comfort it were to us but clear it is and a miserable case she is as far off for ought we know as ever for we are not agreed upon those marks and tokens by which she must be known Our Church the Church of England holds the purity of Doctrine preached agreeable to God's Word and Sacraments administred according to Christ's Ordinance to be the notes of it The papists hold they know not how many Bellarmine reckons fifteen but at last reduceth them to four according to the most usual and received Opinion amongst them Unity Holinesse Universality Succession as they are in the Nicene Creed but yet he comes reeling off too giving them no more than an Evidence of Credibility so that if a man will believe them he may and may not if he will and if we were agreed upon the true marks yet should we not be agreed upon the true Church for suppose the four mentioned before and urged by the Church of Rome be they yet we say they are more visible in our Church than in that of Rome There are not amongst us three hundred and three differences in points of Religion as hath been demonstrated in the Church of Rome and therefore ours the greater Unity For Holinesse that is a grace keeps home and stirs little abroad yet if we may judge of it by its fruits the papists cannot shew us more wicked members of our Church than we can them Heads of theirs so the thing Holinesse is ours let the Title be theirs For Universality Rome wherein she differeth from us cannot prove her Assertions from the testimony of the primitive Church in some points for a thousand years not in any for five hundred after Christ so we are the more Catholique Lastly for Succession of Doctrine which is the best Succession we derive ours from all the Apostles Rome onely from Peter derives onely a Succession of Chairs and yet it is not infallibly certain that ever Peter was at Rome much lesse Bishop there and therefore our Succession the best too so that as the case now stands between us we are not like to agree in haste Doctor I wish you could set us through and truly I must needs say in my opinion you have made a fair offer at deciding this Controversie when you said The true Church must be a Society of Men though I can go no further with you for that That Society of Men are to be supreme Judge of Scripture and Controversies Theological will not down with me nor I believe with many more For let that Society of Men be a General Councel which is a supposition of as much advantage to you as you can desire because it represents the Catholique Church and it is but a supposition too for though there have been before the Empire was split General Councels in former times yet as the case stands now it seemeth to wise men an incredible thing that ever such a Councel shall be again and Religion would be in a most sad condition were all controversies to stay for decision till then Besides Doctor it hath befallen some General Councels that there hath been shamefull packing and fore-stalling of Suffrages and Voices before they met and when met many have been frighted and minaced to vote clean contrary to their own sense and such Councels are but ill to be trusted with Questions of Faith in my poor opinion But suppose your Councel met and assembled and with all the fairest carriage and freedom you can desire they are but

besides Scripture Though it be true the Scripture is a river through which a Lamb may wade and an Elephant may swim yet the meaning of that place is not that the child of God may wade through the Scripture without directions help or Judges but that the meanest capacity may find so much of comfort and heavenly knowledge there easily to be obtained that he may easily wade through to his eternal Salvation If the meanest capacity may wade through the Scriptures to his eternal Salvation they are mad men will seek to go therein beyond their depth what can God give us or we desire more than the Salvation of our Souls Seek the Kingdom of God and all these things shall be added to you the most abstruse mysteries of Art and Nature shall there become obvious to us the most transcendent speculations of all sciences shall there be revealed the most intricate and perplexed subtilities of School Divinity shall there be resolved 't is therefore a preposterous curiosity to hunt with so laborious disquisition for that here which will come so cheap and easie to us there Wherefore with pardon craved for my presumption in holding your Majesty in so tedious a discourse as also for my boldnesse in obtruding my opinion which is except as incomparable Hooker in his Ecclesiastical polity hath well observed the Churches Authority be required therein as necessary hereunto we shall be so far from agreeing upon the true meaning of the Scripture that the outward letter sealed with the inward witnesse of the Spirit being all Hereticks have quoted Scripture and pretended spirit will not be a warrant sufficient for any private man to judge so much as the Scripture to be Scripture or the Gospel to be the Gospel of Christ The Doctor is now entered into a weighty point and not more weighty then intricate viz. how we are ascertained that the Scriptures are the word of God The Doctor with the Church of Rome derives that assurance from the Testimony and tradition of the Church and her Testimony is indeed of all sufficient to render us so assured if she be so infallible and in-erring as they pretend for our Faith in this particular cannot be guided by any thing beneath infallible This question being so considerable and of such concernment it will not I hope be thought amisse if I spend a little the more time about it Therefore for elucidation and illustration therof I say That the Scriptures are the word of God is a proposition which must depend upon the evidence either of knowledge or Faith If of knowledge then it must be elicited and extracted from the principles of natural reason But all the reason in the world will never be able to demonstrate either that the Scriptures are the word of God or that they are not Mistake me not I do not exclude reason as a guide nor place it so in the line of incidence as if it stood neuter or indifferently inclined to both the affirmative and negative no I hold vastly otherwayes Arguments she hath many and ponderous to perswade that the Scriptures are of Divine inspiration that they are not so to diswade she hath and can frame none But yet those Arguments are but soluble no Demonstrations for in Demonstrations the understanding is so clearly convinced by reason that it can possibly incline no other way then one Ea est vera Demonstratio quae cogit non quae persuadet and if reason were able to demonstrate the Scriptures to be the word of God then all men who have reason would assent presently without more ado to her dictates and consequently the whole world would become Christian so that impossible it is for us to know that the Scriptures are the word of God and if know it we cannot it resteth onely that we must thereof be assured by Faith and Faith will assure us of it as infallibly to the full though not so evidently in regard the principles thereof are indemonstrable as reason can well then Faith it is which teacheth us infallibly that the Scriptures are Divine and sacred but how that Faith is produced and wrought in us is next inquirable The Doctor tels us out of Hooker that the Authority of the Church produceth it and unlesse that be required the inward witnesse of the spirit will not be a warrant sufficient for any private man to Judge so much as the Scripture to be Scripture or the Gospel to be the Gospel of Christ But the Doctor hath here most shamefully abused that judicious worthy who hath in his whole 5. books of Ecclesiastical Polity no such words and which is more no such thing If I bely the Doctor let the shame lie upon me Hooker hath thrice and no oftener occasion in those books to declare himself in this point whose very words are these 1. Vnlesse besides Scripture there were something which might assure us that we do well we could not think we do well no not in being assured that Scripture is a sacred and holy rule of well doing What that something is besides Scripture Hooker mentions not and if the Doctor say he means the Church I demand of him to prove it for sure I am Hooker doth not so much as name the word Church in all that Section 2. The Scripture is the ground of our belief yet the Authority of man is the key which opens the door of enterance into the knowledge of the Scripture Hooker saith not here that the Authority of man createth in us the belief that the Scriptures are Divine but onely that it is the key to the interpretation of the Scriptures and you may note withall that it is the Authority of but man not of God speaking infallibly by man Lastly The first outward motive leading men so to esteem of the Scriptures is the Authority of Gods Church For when we know the whole Church of God hath that opinion of Scripture we Judge it even an impudent thing for any man bred and brought up in the Church to be of a contrary mind without cause Observe here that the Authority of Gods Church is with Hooker the first outward so no inward nor the onely outward motive 2. That it is an outward motive too but onely to us who are born and bred up in the Church and to such I grant the Authority of the Church is a very great motive for nothing brings fools and ignorant persons to knowledge and wisdom a sooner and gainer way then the Authority of wise-men but must Faith acquiess and set up its rest in the Authority of the Church assuredly no The Church may it is possible ten thousand General Councels may saith Hooker be deceived and Authoritate decipi miserum est 't is a lamentable thing to erre with Authority sed certe miserius non moveri but to be obstinate against it and of a contrary mind as Hooker saith without cause is more