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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
nature_n	father_n	son_n	subsist_v	3,592	5	11.9300	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A60380	The judgment of the fathers concerning the doctrine of the Trinity opposed to Dr. G. Bull's Defence of the Nicene faith : Part I. The doctrine of the Catholick Church, during the first 150 years of Christianity, and the explication of the unity of God (in a Trinity of Divine Persons) by some of the following fathers, considered.	Smalbroke, Thomas.; Nye, Stephen, 1648?-1719.	1695 (1695)	Wing S4000; ESTC R21143	74,384	80

they propose such an Explication how three infinite Minds and Spirits are but one God as all Men of Consideration will take to be a Declaration and Assertion of three Gods for they will have three infinite Minds to be one God because they have three distinct Divine Substances qualified each of them with all distinct Divine Properties when these Substances and Properties are the very Marks and Notifications of their distinct Divinities or that they are distinct Gods But themselves also acknowledg that if Origination from the Father and to be specifically consubstantial with him were sufficient to make the Son and Spirit one God with the Father then James and John being originated from their Father Peter and consubstantial in all Respects with him it will follow that Peter James and John are not three Men but one Man or Peter James and John are one Man with Peter To get rid of this they advance a third Bull more ridiculous than either of the two former it is this 3. If the originated and consubstantial and Divine Persons are propagated from the first Person by an internal Production so that they are always and inseparably in the Person that produced them they are thereby most truly one God with him Here the Reader needs only to consider that we are arguing concerning three such Persons as are confess'd by these Opposers to be three distinct Substances Now to say of two of these Substances that they are propagated by an internal Production is a Bull to add that that they are inseparably in the Person that produced them is another but 't is worst of all to say that by their Inexistence in the Father the Son and Spirit are one God with him this I say is a worse Blunder a more inexcusable Oversight than internal Production or inseparable Substances Internal Production when said of Substances is a Contradiction both in the Sense and Terms 't is as much as to say a Production not produced a Generation not generated And a Substance being that which can exist separately or by it self and needeth not as an Accident to inexist in something else therefore an inseparable Substance is a Substance without being a Substance or a Substance and no Substance Dr. Bull will answer it may be the Substances of the Son and Spirit are always and inseparably in the Father not from a natural Inhability to subsist as they are Substances by themselves or separately but only because the Nature of the Divine Unity requires that the second and third Persons of the Godhead should always inexist in the first and he in them But if this be the Meaning of inseparably it is impertinently as well as falsly added Impertinently because the word always had been enough and only proper to be here used Falsly because things are not inseparable if only they are not actually separated but of their own Nature have an Hability to exist separately The Bull therefore remains against whatsoever Excuses but were that which the Doctor aims to say never so true we shall see presently it will not in the least avail his Cause For as I said the greatest Blunder and Inobservance of all is what Dr. Bull and the Fathers take to be the Strength of this Hypothesis namely this that the second and third Persons being always in the first are therefore one God with him For it is to be noted that these Gentlemen hold not only that the Son and Spirit are in the Father but he also in them it is the mutual Inexistence of all the three Persons and not only of the Son and Spirit in the Father that maketh them to be one God I ask hereupon whether this mutual Inexistence Immeation or Penetration of the three Persons be such that their Substances become continuous as the Parts for Instance of the same Piece of Gold are or only contiguous like more Pieces of Gold that are heaped or bagged together Are the Substances of the three Divine Persons I say continuous as to use another Instance the Parts of the same Angel or Soul are continuous and indiscerpible or are the only contiguous as God or the Divine Substance which pervades all things Spirits as well as Bodies is contiguous to the things which it pervades and immeates If Dr. Bull says that the Divine Persons Minds and Spirits or the three Divine Substances have such a mutual Inexistence that they become continuous as the assignable conceivable Parts of each Person 's own Substance are or as the Parts of an Angel or Soul are He says thereby and therein that the Substances and Persons are identified which is Heresy because as the Athanasian Creed speaks it confounds the Persons If the Substances are continuous and thereby identified the Properties also of the three Substances in Mr. Bull 's Hypothesis will be identified too for in this Hypothesis there cannot be distinct Understandings Wills and Energies if the Substances are not distinct but continuous and thereby identified But we need not to insist on this for Dr. Bull dares not say that the Substances of the Divine Persons are identified or continuous he must say and will say that they do so inexist in one another that they are only contiguous there is only a Contact of their Substances not an Identification or Continuity But if there be only a Contact of the three Substances they are as much three Gods and separate Substances in the Physical Sense of the word separate as three Men imbracing one another are three distinct Men not one Man or as God and the Creation are separate Substances tho he inexists in pervates or immeates the Works he hath made and they again exist in him The Fathers that were Philosophers when they said the three Divine Persons or Substances are in one another meant by their mutual Love and Agreement but those Fathers that were not learned or understood only the Platonick Philosophy which is wholly moral and metaphysical and never meddles with the natural Reasons of things I say the Fathers that were not natural Philosophers imagined such an Inexistence of the three Persons that the said Persons were physically and substantially in one another and thereby say they one God They knew not that a substantial Inexistence must either be by the Continuity of the Substances which confounds the Substances or Persons or only by Contiguity or Contact which can no more make three Divine Persons and Spirits to be one God than three Men fitting close on the same Bench are thereby one Man or than God who is in all Spirits whether Angels or Souls and they in him are the same Being or the same Substance not separate Substances In short Dr. Bull and these Fathers say the three Divine Persons are three distinct several Substances and do substantially immeate or inexist in one another yet so that they are not continuous or identified as the Parts of the same numerical Substance are but only contiguous We say hereupon that this will never make

are propagated from him But they can never answer either why the Father should propagate from himself only two Spirits as perfect as himself or why seeing those two are as perfect as he they also should not generate their like If the two propagated Persons and Spirits cannot generate their like they are not such perfect Beings as the Father is and consequently are neither Gods nor absolutely perfect Spirits If it be said only they will not generate their like because three absolutely perfect Spirits are enough 't is not only frivolous but silly for if three perfect Spirits are more desirable by one another or more necessary to the World than one such Spirit or Mind by an unavoidable Parity of Reason seven or ten Spirits and Minds that are all-sufficient and absolutely perfect must be more desirable and more requisite to the World than Three Again It was Aristotle that observed and 't is an Observation worthy of so great a Man that the Unity of God is discernable in the Constitution and Frame of the World For such is the Uniformity and good Order of the whole and all the Parts both in their Qualities and Motions so manifestly tend to one and the same End namely the Service of Man and the Conservation of the World it self in its present State moreover these Parts continue in their first Motion and Course so stedfastly and invariably that it appears they were contrived and are regulated not by more Gods Makers or Almighty Spirits but by one only Law and Mind Last of all that there is an all-wise God we prove beyond Contradiction by that perpetual Wisdom Contrivance and good Sense which is seen in the Whole and the Parts of the World and which must be previous to the World and its Parts else how came blind unthinking Matter into such a wise Order But we have no manner of Proof not the least Intimation that there are more such Gods as undoubtedly there would be both in Nature and by Revelation if indeed there were more such These Reasons have always perswaded all Philosophers and Divines that there is but one supreme and infinite God and they proceed as directly against more infinite all-perfect and creating Spirits or Minds as against more Gods In very deed there never was any Philosopher that made any Distinction between three Gods and three infinite Minds and Spirits he would have been esteemed not in his right Senses by the Philosophers who should talk of one God and three infinite all-perfect Spirits with them one God and one all-perfect Spirit were convertible Terms and used for each other and indeed they ever will be by all that consider what they say But Dr. Bull and the Fathers whom he follows are perswaded that tho all Nature and Reason are against it yet 't is a Divine Revelation that there are three infinite intellectual Substances three all-perfect Spirits three all-sufficient Minds and that they may be said to be but one God on the Accounts before-given and which I will now examine He and his Fathers say 1. The second and third Minds are originated from the first the Son and Spirit have their Being Life and Godhead from the Father therefore they are one God with him There never was a more absurd thing said by Men. They pretend to prove the Unity or declare the Unity by what is the first Cause of Distinction Diversity and separate Existence God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are propagated from God the Father therefore they are one God with him no Friends no therefore they are separate Beings and distinct Gods from him as distinct and separate as Cause and Effect can be which is the very first of Distinctions and the Ground and Reason of all subsequent Distinction And what kind of God have these Gentlemen devised A God who is in one part of his Composition in that part which they call the Father unoriginated but in his two other Parts the Son and Spirit not only originated as to his Godhead but as to his very Being and Life To say as Dr. Bull and the Fathers do that the Son and Spirit have their Being Life and Godhead from the Father or are originated in respect of all these from the Father implies that they differ from the Father as prior and posterior former and latter for the originated Spirits or Parts of God must of necessity be posterior latter or postnate to that Spirit or part of him from which they are originated the very term Origination is a Confession of a natural Posteriority which cannot be in God To grant to our Opposers that Distinction of theirs prior in Nature and prior in Time they cannot thereby secure their Cause for if the Son and Spirit are originated as to their Substance Being Life and Godhead from the Father they are posterior in Nature to him and therefore can neither be God nor essential Parts of him Posterior in Nature or postnate is as incompatible to God as posterior in Time for it implies an Accession to him and a Change in him If there be something in God that is posterior in Nature to something else in God then the whole of God is not connate there has been a Change and Accession in him which because our Opposers dare not say neither ought they to say the other namely that there is somewhat in God that is posterior in Nature to somewhat else in him and yet to give up that they know is to give up their Cause But themselves that they may not seem stark Fools take notice that if to be originated from the Father will make the Son and Spirit to be one God with the Father the whole Creation the very vilest parts of it shall be one God with him because they are originated from him that is they give up this first Solution or Explication of the Unity and they alledg in the next Place after this manner 2. We do not affirm that bare Origination from God can make the Persons so originated to be one God with him but only when they are so originated from God as to have the same specifick Substance and Properties that he hath that is when the originated Persons have like him immortal unchangable Substances and are omniscient omnipotent and the rest that God is As who should say we make it out that three infinite Spirits are but one God by increasing their first Distinction and Diversity They were sufficiently three Gods by the Origination of the second and third from the first but we will more ascertain them to be so by the Multiplication of Substances and specifick Properties I ask what is it that constitutes or essentiates a God is it not this That we suppose a spiritual Substance that is immortal and unchangable and has the Divine Properties of Omniscience and Omnipotence If so then by supposing more such Substances with such Properties belonging to them we do not suppose one God but three In short I say

Archbishop of Canterbury the Bishop of Glocester Dr. Sherlock Mr. How and others imbrace this Notion of the Trinity 'T is not unlikely that by degrees it will exclude the Sabellian Nominal Trinity of the Schools and not only exclude it but be the Occasion that it shall be declared Heretical 'T is true that more commonly in Universities they go the way of the Schools but the scholastick Trinity implies so many Follies and is so certainly nothing else but a disguised Sabellianism that the real Trinitarians may probably enough carry their Point against the Nominals if the Difference between them breaking out into a Contention shall fall into the Hands of able Managers We have seen how the Fathers understood the Trinity but the Difficulty is still behind how did they make out the Unity of God For if there are three spiritual intellectual Substances three infinite Spirits three eternal all-knowing and all-powerful Minds Three each of which is a perfect God do we not lose the Unity of God the principal Article of revealed Religion and the grand Design of both the Testaments while we believe and affirm three such Persons Dr. Bull here offers his Hand at a dead lift he tells us the Fathers easily came off from this Exception or Doubt by saying 1. The Son and Spirit had their Original their Being and Godhead from the Father therefore having proceeded from him as their Principle and Fountain they are not distinct Gods from him but one God with him The Fathers granted that were not the Son and Spirit originated from the Father the three Divine Persons being so many several Principles would also be so many Gods but because the Son and Spirit are not as the Father self-originated or unoriginated but from the Father therefore they are rightly said to be one God with him Every one sees that there lies this Exception against this Account of the Unity of God If to be originated from the Father will make the Persons so originated to be one God with him or one with him and with one another it follows that not only the Son and Holy Spirit but Angels also and Men nay the whole Creation the very vilest Parts of it shall be one God with the Father and with the pretended Trinity and one with one another because they are all originated from the Father Therefore the Fathers said 2. Bare Origination from the Father will not constitute the Persons so originated one God or one with him or with one another unless they have the same Substance with the Father that is as has been said the same for Kind and Properties And this Confideration they said excludes all Creatures from being one God or one with the Father or the blessed Trinity for created Substances are finite subject to Change and Accidents In a word they are wholly unlike to the Divine Substance They foresaw that it would be again objected here If to be originated from another who is of the same kind with the Persons so originated from him will make them all to be one for Instance will make the Son and Spirit to be truly one and one God with the Father from whom they are originated then two Sons or a Son and Grandson because they are originated from the same Father and are of the same kind with him shall also be one with him they shall not be three Men but one Man as Father Son and Holy Spirit are not three Gods but one God To wind themselves from this most certain and solid Reasoning the Fathers devised a third Elusion as wise as either of the two former they said that 3. Origination of two Persons from a first Person tho they are all of the same kind will not make them one or one God except as it most luckily happens between the three Divine Persons the originated Persons are propagated interiori productione that is are generated by an internal Production so that they are always and inseparably in the Person that produced them And this at length is the Fathers whole Explication of a Trinity in Unity They said in short three distinct Divine Persons Substances Spirits each of which is singly and by himself a perfect God are notwithstanding but one God because the second and third Persons are originated from the first and are of the same Kind and Properties with him and are generated or propagated by an internal Production so that they inseparably and always remain in the Father and he in them This in effect is to say that naturally properly and truly speaking there are three Gods or there are three Gods in Number but in regard that God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are of the same kind with God the Father are originated from him and are eternally and inseparably in him they may in a Catachrestical improper and respective Sense all be called one God I will examine very particularly the whole Hypothesis of these Fathers their Trinity of Substances Minds and Spirits and their Explication now laid down how three such Persons and Divine Minds can be but one God Only for preventing if it may be future Cavils I would first take notice that this Explication of the Unity of God or how three Persons can be but one God by the Fathers and Dr. Bull evidently supposes that they held the three Divine Persons are so many distinct Substances Minds and Spirits as well as distinct Persons I think 't is sufficient to prove that the Fathers held the three Persons are so many distinct Spirits and Minds in that they so certainly affirmed them to be distinct spiritual Substances if the three Divine Persons are three distinct Substances all Men the very nominal Trinitarians themselves will grant that they are distinct Minds and Spirits Dr. Bull hath incontestably proved by a great Number of Quotations and might have proved by a great many more that by consubstantial or of the same Substance the Fathers meant not the same Substance in Number but the same in Properties As Stars are consubstantial to Stars and the Bodies of Men to the Bodies of Beasts because they are Substances of the same kind that is corporeal and of the same Properties for all Stars are lucid and the Bodies of Men and Beasts are organized and subject to Alteration So are the three Divine Persons consubstantial being of the same kind that is to say spiritual and having the same Properties namely Eternity Immutability Omnipresence and the other Divine Attributes I will undertake for it that none of the Nominal Trinitarians as angry as some of them are will ever attempt to confute Dr. Bull 's first Chapter of his second Section where he gives this Account of the word Consubstantial out of the Fathers But if the Divine Persons are therefore Consubstantial because they are of like kind and have the same Properties their Substance is not the same in Number but only as Dr. Bull speaks the same in Nature And if this be true as