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A69195 Certaine demandes with their grounds, drawne out of holy writ, and propounded in foro conscientiæ by some religious gentl. vnto the reverend fathers, Richard archbishop of Canterbury, Richard bishop of London, William bishop of Lincolne, Garvase bishop of Worcester, William bishop of Exeter, & Thomas bishop of Peterbourough wherevnto the said gentl. require that it would please their lordships to make a true, plaine, direct, honest and resolute aunswere. Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610. 1605 (1605) STC 6572.5; ESTC S112734 57,418 70

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learning non solent quae superabundant vitiare scripturas yet by your Lordships favour your c. swelleth to high and gulleth the passages of a softe spirit overmuch your argument also of christian Magistracy at the least three times already vrged is in this place more then superabundant as amounting above the third vnto a fourth degree of comparison But to the poyntes And first because as earst hath bene said it was the decree and supplication of your Synod that begate this commandement and not this commandement that travayled and brought your Synodall decree and supplication to the birth touching which your Synodall decree for the vse of these ornaments rites ceremonies by the weak what els is there to be added then that we deny againe what in effect more then once twice we have in this behalfe denied before namely granting these thinges in their owne nature to be indifferent and that they may be vsed in the service of God by them that be strong in faith have knowledge of their indifferencie neverthelesse we deny that by any Decree of the Church they may be appointed to be vsed by the weake and them that have no knowledge of their indifferencie For this we have learned of the nature of things indifferent if the cōscience be strong that the things be good if the conscience be weake that they bee evill not in regarde of their owne nature but in regarde of the conscience of him that iudgeth them to be evill For as it is not meate it selfe but the vse of meate wherevnto the Apostle would have men sticke so is it not apparell a Crosse or a Ceremonie wherevpon the servantes of Christ are to cast their eyes that they may not be reprehended by their consciences rightly guyded for the vse of that thing which they vse And how should a conscience bee rightly guyded in the thing which he vseth vnles he have grounde out of Gods worde for the thinge which he vseth But he hath you will say a commaundement of God to obey the higher powers in the vse of thinges indifferent This is true in deed saye we if they having for the guyde of their consciences the holy worde of God shall iudge the thinges and the vse of the things for the service wherevnto they bee commaunded to be indifferent but they being not fully perswaded in their myndes both of the indifferencie of the thinges and of the vse of the things in that service wherevnto they bee commaunded how can your Lordships proove that in this case the Church may decree and the Magistrate command them to do an act in the doing whereof they shall commit sinne yea and which they can by no meanes avoyde if in doing the thing commanded they stand in doubt For he that doubteth is condemned in that he doth because he doeth it not of faith And what soever is not of faith is sinne Wherefore because no canon nor decree of the Church can cleanse a mans conscience of the weaknes of faith or poure strength into the same that he sinne not we affirme that every decree and canon of your Synod which giveth an occasion of offence and emboldeneth the weak in faith to sinne by the vse of these rites and ceremonies in the worship of God is a Canon and is a Decree conteyninge matter in the substance of it contrary and repugnant to the doctrine of the Apostle And that therefore it is no sinne for any brother weake in fayth not to obey the same though at the request of your Synod it hath pleased our Christian Magistrate to inioyne him therevnto because the ground-worke of your Decree being sandy the buylding of the Magistrate can not surely and firmely stande This your Lordships argument therefore of the lawfull vse of indifferent things by commandement of the christian Magistrate for orders sake is but a begging of the point in question For wee hold that no church nor christian Magistrate can decree or impose any rites and ceremonies being relickes monuments or memorialls of idolatrie to be vsed no not for orders sake in the worship of the true God because the vse of all relickes monumentes and memorialles of idolatrie in divine worship is not a thing not only not indifferēt but a thing in all respectes meerely and absolutely vnlawfull And therefore it importeth your Lordships to proove vnto vs by some holy Writt the contrary of that which we affirme namely that the vse of all Relickes Monumentes and Memorialles of Idolatrie as thinges indifferent for orders sake may be decreed by the Church and inioyned by the Christian Magistrate in the worship of God what we have alleadged out of holy Writt for the proofe of our generall negative your Lordships have seene and read And now we wayte and exspect that you would produce your stronge reasons for the proofe of your generall affirmative Our generall negative is this No Reliques Monumentes or Memorialls of Idolatrie may lawfully be decreed by the Church or inioyned by the Christian Magistrate to be vsed by the ministers and servants of Christ as indifferent rites and ceremonies for orders sake in the worship of God And if none Then not your Copes Surplices Crosses c. Your Lordships affirmation All Reliques Monumentes and Memorialls of Idolatrie may lawfullie be decreed by the Church and inioyned by the Christian Magistrate to be vsed by the Ministers servants of Christ as indifferēt rites ceremonies for orders sake in the worship of God And if all why not then a Friers coule for an Archbishop a Monkes hood for a Bishop a shaven crowne for a Deane and a shaven chinne for an Archdeacon But now alas alas to adde and to speake but one worde touching the vse of these rites c. appointed by your Synod for orders sake may not we and all the Churches take vp a complaynt and lamentably cry saying Alas alas what Was it not possible for your sacred Synod assembled as you say in the name of Christ but that the same must decree popish and Idolatrous rites and ceremonies to be still continued in the church for orders sake Or was it not possible for your sacred Synod assembled as you say in the name of Christ but that the same must needes devise and decree such rites and ceremonies for orders sake as by the vse whereof your weake brethren the servantes of Christ can not be but tempted and captiously insnared Or was it not possible for your Synod to have vsed their iudgement but to the perill of the soules of their brethren but to put occasions of falling and of stumbling before their brethren But by your patience Sirs we abhorre the popish pollutions of the Surplice of the Crosse and of the Idolatrous kneeling to a piece of bread And as we take not our garmentes rites and ceremonies from the papistes but from their betters so we professe the detestation of their superstitious abuses and restore them to their ancient
them that were dead for the witnes of Iesus and for the word of God and which did not worship the beast neither his image neither had taken his marke vpon their forheads or on their handes From these grounds of holy Writ taken out of the law we demand whether the worship of every Idoll and false god or not rather every superstitious and false worship of the true God bee forbidden And whether this superstitious and false worship of the trew God bee not intended to be that maner forme and fashion of worship both wholy and in parte which the Gentiles vsed in the worship of their Idolles For there being a commaundement given before vnto the children of Israell for the burning of the Images and of the vtter destruction of all the Idolles of the Cananites it is by these Scriptures commaunded after these Idoles were destroyed and the Images burnt that the children of Israell should not so much as once hearken after or inquire how those nations served their gods least they should be taken in a snare to doe so and likewise vnto the Lord their God as the nations did vnto their Idoles And thus much also doth that argument drawen from the doctrine of the gospell enforce of not having felowship concord parte or agreement with beliall or with an Idoll of the not taking of the marke of the beast in their handes or in their foreheads And therefore we again demand whether the Church falsly so called of Rome be not this great whore with whom the kings of the earth have cōmitted fornication And whether shee also be not from the earth and of this world Whether the beautie of this great whore stand not in outwarde pompe of apparell and outward shewes after the manner of a strumpett Whether this outward pompe of apparell and shewes of impudency consist not partly in Copes Surplices Crosses and such like trashe And whether these Copes Surplices Crosses c. be not designed by that whore to be the proper and peculiar cognizances tokens badges and ensignes of her lovers cōmitting fornication with her great Idoll the breaden God If your Lordships can iustly deny our demaunds in the affirmative to be true we then agayne demaund If the bryde of the lambe being a pure virgine shall at any tyme be apparelled in the acte of the service of her beloved like to the minnions wayting vppon the great Whore in the acte of her fornications wee demaunde wee saye whether the Bryde in this case can be precious and amiable in the eyes of the Bridegrome can be said to have no concord with beliall no parte with an infidell no agreement with an Idoll can bee saide not to take vpon her hande vpon her forehead or vpon her backe the marke of the beast Can be sayd not to doe so and lykwise to the brydgrome as the mynions of the whore doe to their Idole or not to doe so and lykewise to God as the papists doe to the devill Nay if the Church of England herself alone bee not the bryde but one of the maydes of the Bride and if also shee professe hir self to be the first of the three rather then the last of the the thirty worthyes and honorable Virgins we demand what holy reason should move this maide of England still to fashion her Necklaces her Bracelets hir Frontlets hir Cheynes hir Iewels hir lynen Apornes hir gaudie Kirtles like to those which the most famous strumpett that ever was for pompous ostentation and braverie daily vseth and putteth on especially sithence all hir other fellow maides in other Countries attending vpon the Bride with most solemne vowes and obtestations and with a most holy disdayne and indignation have abandoned and cast away as a menstruous cloth what attire soever hath bene or yet is proper to the minions of that great Whore If your Lordships answere that the Maide of Englande being perfectly instructed from the Bridegroms voice that no Cope Surplice or Crosse is vncleane of it selfe may command hir Damsels to attyre and fashion their liveries colours and badges like to those which the minions louers of the great whore cōmonly deck them selves withall if so be hir commandement tend not that hir Damsells should be defiled or bee druncken with the Wine of the fornication of the great whore but only that they should be humbled at the feete of the Christian Magistrate whom the Bridgrome hath armed with power to be a protector and a nursing father of all the liberties and franchises of the Bride and of hir Maides if your Lordships we say to dischardge the Maide of England in foro conscientiae shall answere thus and thus then because the Christian Magistrate is him selfe not the Bridgrome but one of the children of the Bride chamber a friend of the Bridegromes and for this cause in this respect can not rightly command the Maide of Englande to be appareled otherwise in the service of the Bridegrome then as the Bridegrome hath lycensed the Magistrate to command wee then demand by what rule of holy Writt your Lordships can prove that the Christian Magistrate hath commission from the Bridegrome to command the Maide of England at all seasons and in all the courts of his aboade to waite and to attend to present and to put vp hir requests hir prayers and hir services in such suite and change of rayment as is common with that of the minions of the great whore For vnlesse the Christian Magistrate be armed with power from the Bridegrome to chardge the maide of England to be thus attired your Lordships can not be ignorant but that aswell the nursing Father in commanding as the nurse Child in obeying shall sinne against the Bridgrome For howsoever it may bee lawfull for the Christian Magistrate to command or forbidde the vse or not vse of every kinde of creature which in it owne nature by vertue of creation is good and therefore only called indifferent because indifferently at the moderate pleasure of every man the same with prayer and thanksgiving may be vsed or refused for the vse of this life without offence to God nevertheles we greatly stand in doubt whether the Christian Magistrates authoritie reach so farr as to command that the worke of mans hands be vsed in the outward worship of the true God which for the pollution and prophanation thereof in the service of an Idoll is become for the service of the true God abhominable and damned Nay if Hezekiah King of Iudah be commended in holy Writt for doing vprightly in the sight of the Lord when he brake in pieces the brasen Serpēt called it a piece of brasse when the children of Israell by burning incense to it abused it to Idolatrie notwitstanding the same were first set vp by Moyses at the commandement of God How much more ought Christian Magistrates to destroy and to breake in pieces all maner workes of mens handes never commanded in holy writt either for the
ministeriall garment for the ministers of the Gospell then we demand whether by authoritie of holy Writt he may ordayne and appropriate such a ministeriall garment as in matter forme and specie differeth not from that ministeriall garment which by the high Priest chiefe Prince of idolatry hath bene and still is ordeyned and appropriated to be a necessary priestly garment for his idolatrous Priests in their idoll service And to the end your Lordships may perceave our demands to bee made cōscionably not humorously or novelously we have thought necessary to lay downe and annex certaine principles or canons out of holy Writ whervpon our Demands and reasons are grounded which grounds and reasons also we extend against crossing in Baptisme and Kneeling in the acte of receving the Communion The first ground The graven images of their Gods shall ye burne with fire and covet not the silver and gold that is on them nor take it to thee least thou be snared therewith for it is an abhomination Bring not therefore abhomination into thine house least thou bee accursed like it but vtterly abhorre it and counte it most abhominable for it is accursed There shall cleave nothing of the damned thing to thine hands All they that make any image are vanitie and their delectable things shall nothing profite And shall polute the covering of the images of silver and the riche ornaments of gold and cast them away as a menstruous cloth and thou shalt say vnto it get thee hence Neither be ye idolaters as some of them were Babes keepe your selves from idoles From these grounds of the Law the Prophets and the Gospell wee demand whether your Lordships against these can oppose any other rules of holy Writt to prove that any Christian Magistrate Christian Minister or Christian people may be blamelesse and without fault in foro conscientiae if in the publike and outward worship of God either he shall command or they shall vse any the relickes monuments or memorialls any the delectable vaine and vnprofitable things some times or now apperteyning to the idolatrous sacrifice of that great and knowne idole the Popish Masse For if every commandement of the first Table of the Law be a way and bee a path out of the which no Christian ought to turne a side either to the right hand or to the left but in the which every Christian is bound aswell in the time of the Gospell as every Israelite was bound in the time of the Lawe to walke then not onely that great Idoll of the Popish Masse it selfe sett vp and worshipped in the time of the Gospell but then also all relickes monuments memorialls and delectable things with their accessaries appendices and appurtinances as a menstrous cloth ought to be cast away and to bee bidden get ye hence especially we say in the publike service and worship of the true God For by how much more the glorie of the Sonne who spake from heaven doeth farre excell the honour of a servant which spake on earth by so much the more ought that Idoll that Idolatrie which is set vp and committed in the time of the Gospell be esteemed more vile and detestable then was that Idoll and that Idolatrie set vp and committed in the time of the law The reasons of the prohibition of coveting and of taking any the images their coverings their ornaments their golde and their silver vnder the Law were in number foure Namely First they were an abhomination to the Lord. Then A feare of the peoples being snared Thirdly a threat of being accursed And lastly for that they were vaine and could nothing profite If then that great Idoll of the Popish Masse with all the Copes Vestiments Surplices Crosses Kneelings Candles and other memorialls and delectable things invented for the adorning and pompe thereof be abhominable and accursed in the sight of God bee also vaine and can nothing profit men If also the Magistrate the Ministers and people beleeving the Gospel may be snared and shal be accursed after the maner of the Israelites if so be without warrant from holy Writt they shall vse these things in the worship of God we demand whether from the doctrine of the Law the Prophets and the Gospell we may not conclude thus With whatsoever things either Magistrate Minister or people may be snared and for the vse of whatsoever things they may be accursed those things may not lawfully be commanded or vsed in the publike worship of God But aswell the Magistrate as the Ministers and people may then be snared and shal be accursed with and for the command and vse of Copes Surplices Crosses c. when in the publike worship of God they be commanded and vsed without warrant of his word Therefore Copes Surplices Crosses c. may not be commanded nor vsed in the publike worship of God without warrant of his word If your Lordships denie the assumpt and answere that Copes Surplices Crosses c. commanded and vsed for the adorning and bewtifying of that great Idoll the Masse bee in their owne nature thinges indifferent and none other otherwise can be accursed or be a snare to any Christian Magistrate Minister or people then as they bee imployed to the vse and service of that Idoll and in this regarde their free and liberall vse is no more now forbidden then is the eating of meates sacrificed vnto Idolls and that therefore all feare of being snared and accursed doeth cease because wee have free libertie by the word for the eating of meates sacrificed vnto Idolls then herevnto wee replie that your answere is very vnsufficient and vncertaine and without any strength of reason drawne from holie Writt For though wee grant that nothing is vncleane of it selfe and that we ought not to accompt that polluted which God hath purified neverthelesse we pray your Lordships to resolve vs by holy Writt that God hath by his worde aswell purified Copes Surplices Crosses c. for the outward vse of his publike worship as by his word hee hath purified meates sacrificed vnto idols for the private vse of mans life When Peter had fastened his eyes vpon the sheete let downe from heaven by the foure corners he cōsidered and saw foure footed beasts of the earth and wilde beasts and creeping things and foules of the heaven which were all the good creatures of God and which also in the beginning were created for the foode of man only for a time while Israell was vnder the Schoolmaistership of the Lawe certayne of these creatures were forbidden to be eaten not because they were in their owne nature evill or vncleane but only because they were made vncleane for a time by prohibition And therefore when the fulnesse of time was come and that Christ the ende of the Lawe was rysen from the dead the law of not eating meates forbidden ceased And by letting downe the sheete and commandement given to Peter to slay and to eate Peter was