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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01735	A short reply vnto the last printed books of Henry Barrow and Iohn Greenwood, the chiefe ringleaders of our Donatists in England VVherein is layd open their grosse ignorance, and foule errors: vpon which their whole building is founded. By George Gyfford, minister of Gods holy worde, in Maldon.	Gifford, George, d. 1620.	1591 (1591)	STC 11868; ESTC S118836	80,934	106

gouernement by Bishops not such as you set it forth well let vs procéede Here now we must lay open what power the Pope dooth exercise and what power the Bishops in our Church doo exercise to sée if it be the same or the like Also whether the Bishops doo exercise any power but that which Christ hath giuen to his Church to be exercised by men that is either by Bishops or Presbyteries Touching the Pope he hath vsurped power ouer the whole word of God affirming that the holy scriptures haue no authority as they say vnto vs no certainty for the sense no life but as hee doth giue vnto them And for this cause hee doth take vpon him to expound them as he will contrary to the grammer sense Hee doth take vpon him to dispense with all and to abrogate expresse lawes of God And further he taketh vpon him to make lawes of his owne to bind the fayth and conscience of all men euen as the articles of our fayth doo bind or the expresse doctrine of the sacred Scriptures Hee doth vsurp in sundry things of so high nature apperteming peculiarly to God as that he sheweth himselfe as God The power which the Byshops of our Church do exercise is first in examining appro●uing and ordaining ministers and authorising them to preach the Gospell Secondly it is in this that they are to sée the orders of the Church for the publick administration duly obserued and so they haue power to excommunicate suspend and depriue c. such as shall transgresse either against doctrine order or in manners Touching lawes they haue not power to make any one not euen in things méete indiff rent neither haue they power to abrogate or to take away any one that is made and by the publick authority of our Church established they can giue no commaundements of their owne That Christ hath giuen power to ordaine ministers and to execute the censures Ecclesiasticall you doo not call into question the controuersie is but by whome this power should bee executed whether by Bishops or by Presbyters If there be an error in the execution of it by Bishops or if there be a fault in the execution by Elders this fault or error dooth not destroy the power it selfe nor yet maketh it Antichristian as ruling ouer the faith and conscience I knowe Master Barrow that ye will here take great exception and say that the chiefe thing is yet behind For as ye charge the presbyteries most heynously in that they take vpon them to decree and ordayne Canons and constitutions vnto which they inioyne obedience in the people so the Bishops execute the lawes and Canons which haue been ordeyned by men though not by themselues the matter is all one Is not this to exercise Lordship and dominion ouer mens faith and conscience About this then must be our speciall question whether Christ hath giuen such a power vnto the Church as to make lawes or Cannons in externall matters which wee call things indifferent And whether the vrging men to kéepe them be not to take away Christian libertie and so to rule ouer the faith and conscience I knowe this question is hard to bee discussed to make euery simple man vnderstand the matter You Master Barrow and Master Greenwood are most blind in it I wish the reader to obserue because it is one maine rocke vpon which ye are runne And crye out what ye can that I like a marked seruant of Antichrist like a graceles man that hath his conscience seared with a hot Iron doo change yee wrongfully yet it shall bee euident that by seeking an Annabaptisticall freedome ye do abridge the power of the Christian Magistrate and of the Church To come therefore vnto the matter that which S. Iames sayth must first stand sure namely That there is one lawgiuer which is able to saue and to destroy Iam. 4. vers 12. Hereupon it is most sure that God alone hath Lordship ouer the conscience of man to binde the faith and conscience For looke what God hath by his lawe commaunded to bee done it is good it is holie no King nor the whole Church can make any part of it euill or commaund it not to be done Looke what God hath forbidden to be done that same is euill and vnholy no King nor yet the whole Church can make it good and holy or command it to bee done I say further that the law of God is so absolutely perfect that there is no righteousnes for men but it is therein conteyned neyther is there any vnrighteousnes but it is therein forbidden Wherefore they which take vpon them to make lawes to binde the conscience eyther by abrogating or by adding commit most high and blasphemous sacriledge of which the whole poperie is to be condemued But now there are certayne middle actions and things which we call indifferent because if we simply respect them in themselues or in their owne nature they bee neither good nor euill In these consisteth one part of Christian libertie to vse or not to vse with knowledge and discretion Now if we respect the very nature of these things no Prince or church can change it as to make them to become necessarily good or necessarily euill in themselues to the conscience And therefore touch not tast not handle not Coloss 2. vers 21. making the outward indifferent things vncleane to the conscience is to vsurpe an Antichristian power ouer the conscience euen agaynst God Also to make those externall things to be of necessitie to the conscience is to lay a yoake of bondage and agaynst this wee are willed to stand fast in the freedome wherewith Christ hath made vs free Gal 5. vers 1. Hetherto Master Barrow I thinke yée will agree with me But now touching the externall vse of these things either for Princes to make politick lawes to commaund the vse or to restraine the vse of them or for the Church to make Cannons and constitutions to commaund or restrayne the vse as shall serue for order and comelines therein lieth our disagreement and therein ye pleade for your Annabaptisticall freedome and confusion I meane that ataxia or ouerthrowe of all order First ye call it a subtill distinction which Master Caluine vseth of the externall or ciuill Court and the Court of conscience in your discouerie pag. 88. And you say Master Caluine hauing very truely set downe that it is heinous presumption in any mortall man to restrayne or make lawes of such things as the Lord hath left in libertie hee straight way least he should keepe backe ciuill Magistrates from receiuing the Gospell inuenteth a politick distinction betwixt the ciuill court and the court of conscience saying that this outward court respecteth men onely and bindeth not the conscience of the doer the other concerneth matters belonging vnto God and therefore bindeth the conscience Thus hath he both lost and entangled himselfe and vtterly ouerthrowne all his former doctrine pag. 93. In pag. 247. of

is that princes lawes are to be obeyed for conscience out of which a man may reason thus seeing none can make lawes to binde the conscience but God and no lawe but in things good or euill can binde the conscience and not in things indifferent for that were to binde where God hath left free therefore Princes haue no power to make lawes in things indifferent To answer this in such sort as a simple man may see the falsehood of it is somewhat hard but I will doo the best I can I say therefore I am bound for conscience to obey the Princes lawes and yet the Princes lawes of themselues doo not binde my conscience It is an honest a good and profitable thing when the Prince maketh a lawe and restrayneth the vse of some things outwardly which the conscience hath freedome in inwardly before God when it is for a publike good Now I am bound to further a publike good it is a great sinne to shewe contempt agaynst the Prince whom God commandeth me to obey in these respects then I am boūd euen for couscience to keep the lawes The nature of the things indifferent is not altered before God vnto my conscience by that restraint of lawe neither yet the vse is taken from me when and where it may bee without contempt of my Prince without offence to men and without hindring a publike good or commoditie They that speake in words of Arte doo say that Princes lawes doo not binde the conscience haplôs but cata ti not simply by themselues but for some respect or by somewhat which commeth as a medium which is as I haue before shewed Take an example put case some dying of clothes should be harmefull to the Common wealth as to dye in blewe I am a Dyer this restraynt doth not make the very dying in blew it selfe vncleane to my conscience before God and so binde my conscience but if I dye in blew contemning the power so giue a publike offence and hinder a common profite I doo sinne God doth forbid these things and they doo binde the conscience Now to come to the lawes Ecclesiasticall which M. Greenwood sayth is to goe a note further The Church as in our Countrey the Prince the Nobilitie and Commons assembled in Parliament doo agree vpon some lawes in things indifferent for comelines and order and edification in Gods worship as in some other places the Presbyteries with the consent of the christian Magistrates This say you is to binde the conscience Well let vs see your reasons If say you they binde not the conscience why should men be excommunicate and deliuered vp to Satan for violating such ceremonies and orders as bind not the conscience This seemeth vnto you a thing most absurd but marke a little The Princes lawes as I haue shewed doo not bind the conscience but yet he that with contempt of the Prince to a publike euill example and harme of the Common wealth doth breake the lawes is guiltie of great sinne and if he stand in it worthie to be excommunicate Euen so hee that violateth a lawfull rule or ceremonie of the Church in matters indifferent which are not layd vpon him to bind his conscience before God but for order and comelines before men though his conscience touching the things themselues is not bound before God yet in shewing any contempt agaynst the publike authoritie of the church in giuing an offence by bringing in vncomelines or disorder he sinneth if he persist obstinatly is to be excommunicate Tel me M. Greenwood is it not a thing betweene God and a mans conscience free to weare a gowne of greene cloath were it not in regard of comelines among men The Church then taketh order that no Minister shall come into the publike assemblie to preach in a green gown he doth it is he not to be reproued as for a great sinne if he stand obstinatly in it to be cast forth But you say all these things must be left to the discretion of the Minister So ye may also take away the power of making lawes in matters simply euil for euery man hath not loue or care And now whereas I haue shewed by y● example of the holy Apostles Act. 15. who decreed that the Gentiles should abstaine from bloud and from strangled that the Church hath power to decrée in things indifferent orders for edification let vs see what a learned answer you M. Greenwood haue found out First you say I haue ouerthrowne my selfe by setting downe that the holy Ghost and the Apostles did this because these were the master builders and were to make lawes c. Alas poore man doth the holy Ghost euer make law or the Apostles in things indifferent as eating blood or strangled to change the nature of the things or to binde a mans conscience before God so that he might not secretly where it might neuer be knowne to the weake Iewes Then ye see there may bee lawes made the holy Ghost by the rules of the Scriptures guiding the Pastors in things indifferent which binde not the conscience But say you they doo not inioyne it as a lawe but tell them they shall do well if they obserue these things by no necessitie inforced pag. 251. Then it seemeth they might haue eate bloud and strangled and giuen offence to the weake Iewes and not haue done euill That which seemeth good to the holy Ghost for them to obserue they may if it seeme not good to them not obserue How absurd is this And if ye mark well what S. Iames sayth Act. 21. vers 25. you shall see it was not left arbytrarie so long as there might offence growe thereby Well if the Church then haue power to make such decrees to auoyd publike offence and disorder what if the Church erre and appoynt some orders and Ceremonies which are hurtfull This error and fault of the Church is not in that high offence of binding the conscience which indeede is Antichristian but in missing what is most comely most without offence and fittest for edification The Church of Christ is so precious a thing and the soules of men to bee regarded with such sender compassion that all Christian gouernours and guides ought to be carefull not onely not to lay any yoke vppon the conscience but euen to redresse the least error that may breede or worke any harme touching comelines and order To ende this poynt Master Barrow vntill you can shewe wherein any power is vsurped and exercised ouer the faith and conscience wee must needes take all that ye haue here set downe to be but your lauish speech Now touching those reasons which I brought to proue the ministry of our Churches to be the ministry of Christ The first is this they haue the calling of the Church What sound stuffe ye haue brought to warrant your most vngodly presumption in condemning the Church of England as also al Churches in Europe let the reader iudge Also that

this booke agaynst me Master Greenwood sayth that Master Caluin would but diuide the soule and the bodie in ciuill causes but I would goe a note further Thus farre be your wordes How shall Master Caluine doo that is thus set vpon by such great diuines which haue so pursued him that he hath lost himselfe and they haue snared him in his owne wordes Alas poore soules I cannot but lament with pitie to see your blindenes for I knowe this is of meere ignorance that ye cannot vnderstand Master Caluine in a doctrine which yet is cleare by the Scriptures Ye say he inuented this politique distinction of the ciuill court and the court of conscience least he should keepe Princes back from the Gospell Then by your owne words it doth follow that if it be prooued that Princes haue power in such matters to make lawes ye do fouly abridge their sacred power by denying it And for that Master Greenwood saith I go a note further then M. Caluine it is his ignorance for let him reade well the fourth booke of his institutions and he shall finde hee holdeth this distinction not onely in ciuill causes but in ecclesiasticall canons And now to the matter I would I were able though in neuer so rude speech to lay it so open as that a childe might vnderstand I will doe the best I can and I will come vnto it by degrees Ye cannot see how there should be such a distinction of an externall action to respect men and not to binde the conscience before God Mark well and see There bee sundry sortes of cloath of sundry colours and there be sundry fashions of garments I am a minister of the Gospell I haue by mee a yelow gowne a gréene hat white hose a tawny coate I doo for some néede secretly where no man seeth me vse them my conscience is not polluted by them I sinne not But now I come with these garments into the publique assemblie I sinne grieuously What is the reason of this It is because the garments themselues the colours or fashions which were before God to the conscieuce of man indifferent are now altered and become not indifferent to the conscience before God In no wise For betwéene God and the conscience they remayne as they did But now the whole matter lyeth in this it is vncomely and offensiue before men Who cannot here see the distinction betweene the ciuill courte that is for the action before men and the court of conscience before God Will ye say because it is euill for a man to doo thus before men therefore it is euill to his conscience before God euen for the very dooing not respecting men Might I not alleadge a thousand things of this nature which I may doo and no sinne betwéene God and my conscience but the sinne commeth by the sight and view of men Nowe when the sight and view of men doth restraine me from dooing them openly the fréedome of my conscience in them is not taken away before God or my conscience is not bound by them before God but I am restrayned in the externall vse of them before men because they be not expedient they be lawfull but not comely We see how Saint Paul speaketh about this matter 1 Cor. 10 ver 23. 24. All things are lawfull for me but all things are not expedient all things are lawfull but all things doo not edifie This is meant onely of things indifferent for all which are in their owne nature euil be vnlawfull and all things simply good are expedient and doo edifie Then we sée by this there are things which are lawful vnto our conscience before God and in which our concsience retayneth still her fréedome before God euen when we are restrayned the outward vse before men This we may sée further in the same Chapter eate what is set before ye asking no question for conscience But if any say this was offered to Idoles eate not of it for conscience Conscience I say not thine but of that other When he sayth not thine doth hee not shew his conscieuce remayneth free before God euen when he is restrayned before men And when he sayth All things are lawfull but I will not be brought vnder the power of any thing 1. Cor. 6. vers 12. doth he not shew it is some bondage if a man haue not freedome to refrayne the vse of a thing lawfull This is one steppe towards our matter But what is this for making lawes either politique or ecclesiasticall to inioyne men to doo that which God hath left free or to restrayn the vse of the creatures which hee hath graunted libertie to vse This is your mayne reason Master Barrow I haue already shewed that he which shall enioyne or restrayne to lay it vpon the conscience before God committeth high sacriledge But the vse of things may be enioyned or restrayned in respect of men as shall bee profitable or vnprofitable comely or vncomely c. A good part of a kingdome doth consist of Cappers The people are giuen all to weare Hats and by this meanes those subiects doo fall into pouertie The Prince maketh a law that all his subiects shall at certaine times not weare Hats but Capps If the subiect shall now stand vp say to weare an Hat or a Cappe is frée before God and séeing God hath giuen mee fréedome of conscience to vse or not to vse no mortall creature hath power to binde my conscience Will not the Prince make answere thou foolish man I doo not binde thy conscience in the thing before God but I enioyne it as a thing expedient and profitable to my common wealth It is free for a man to eate any kinde of meate The Prince doth see it profitable that some kindes of meate should be spared and therfore doth make a law that at some times men shall abstayne from the same The Subiects shall make aunswere GOD hath giuen vs fréedome of conscience to eate no power can binde our conscience from it GOD hath made it lawfull and frée Will not the Prince make answere and say ye Annabaptists doo ye not knowe that there bee many things lawfull and frée to the conscience before God which yet are not expedient among men I doo not restrayne ye to take away the freedome of your conscience in it before God but it is profitable to my kingdome It is free for a man that hath grounds to sowe or to graze but if men be giuen wholly to grazing and corne waxe deare and the Prince maketh a law that whosoeuer occupieth such a quantitie of ground shall plow thus many acres doth he now binde the conscience or onely seeke the publike profite There he thousands of such like matters Master Barrow and therefore consider how foully ye doo abridge the power of Princes to the ouerthrowe of Common wealths in denying them authoritie to make permanent lawes in things indifferent But ye make one obiection more which is of some shewe and that