name among the Gentiles and in euery place there is sacrificing and there is offered to my name a cleane Oblation because my name is great among the Gentiles saith the lord of hosts The Iewes acknowledgment in fine Ose 3 5. The childrē of Israel shall returne saith Osee immediatly after the words aboue cited of their Desolation and shall seeke the lord their God and Dauid their King and they shall dread at the Lord and at his goodnes in the last daies And Isay In that day the residue of the howse of Israel and they that shall escape of the howse of Iacob shall not adde to leane vppon him that striketh them Isa 10. v. 20.21.22 but they shall leane vppon our Lord the holy one of Israel in truth the remnant shall be conuerted the remnant I say of Iacob to the strong God For if thy people o Israel shall be as the sand of the sea the remnant there of shall be conuerted Consummation abridged shall make iustice ouer flowe Our blessed Sauiour foretold vs of it too whose speach the Iewes haue seene verified allready in part and therefore they might beleeue him in the rest Luk. 21. v. 20.24 When you shall see Ierusalem compassed about with an armie then knowe that the desolation therof is at hand c. There shall be greate afflictiō vppon the lande and wrath on this people And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led into all Nations and Ierusalem shall be trodē of the Gētiles till the tymes of Natiōs be fullfilled 37. In findinge out the Person of the Messias there is no difficultie for he was to come with miracles and by his workes to declare himselfe He that will take directions out of ould Scripture for to finde him must attende vnto the circumstances there determined as when from what place in what maner he was to come And he may find him thus without more adoe Looke out one borne at Bethlem before Ierusalē was ouerthrowne whose cariage was humble Mich. 5.6 Dan. 9. v. 26.27 Zach 9. v. 9. 12. v. 10. Isa 49.6 and actions wōderfull who was refused by the Iewes and put to death and hath beene acknowledged followed ād adored by the Gentiles euer since and this is he And in him to whom these fewe circumstances do agree are verified all the Prophecies and all other circūstances foretolde as you will find if you runne them ouer Moreouer that all the circūstances heere named agree pūctuallie to Iesus the sonne of Mary euery Iewe euery Gentile knoweth Neither is it possible now to make them agree to any other since God cannot deceaue nor time runne backe nor that be vndone which is already donne 38. The later Iewes except also against the Deitie of the Messias beleeuinge that he was to be pure mā Wee beleeue that in God there are three Persons in proprietie all distinct in substance and nature one And that the second of these diuine Persons the Sonne and Word coeternall with the Father did for redemption of mankinde assume and vnite vnto himselfe the forme of man or humane nature So that the same Person hauinge two natures is reallie God by reason of his diuine nature the God of hosts the God of Israel the onely God and By reason of his humane nature he is reallie also man In Iesus therefore the Messias Coll. 2.9 Phill. 2.6.7 our Sauiour doth dwell the fullnes of the God head corporally And he when he was in the forme of God thought it no robberie himselfe to be equall to God but he exinanited himselfe takinge the forme of a seruant made into the similitude of men Heb. 1. v. 3.4 and in shape found as man Who beinge the brightnes of the glorie of the eternall Father and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the figure of his substance and carryinge all things by the word of his powre makinge purgation of sinnes sittteth on the right hand of the Maiestie in high places beinge made soe much better the Angells as he hath inherited an more excellent name aboue them Coll. 1. v. 16.17 In whom were created all things in heauen and in earth visible and inuisible whether Thrones or Dominations or Principalities or Potestates all by him and in him were created and he is before all and all consist in him Thus far the Apostle now heare a peece of S. Iohns deuinitie Io. 1. v. 1 2.3 In the begininge was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word This was in the beginninge with God All things were made by him and without him was made nothinge 1 Io. 5. v. 7 There be three which giue testimony in heauen the Father the Word and the Holie Ghost and these three be one This great mysterie wee are taught in the schoole of Iesus Christ And though it be very high as concerninge the subsistence of the Deitie in it selfe yet is it easilie defended against all the aduersaries of our fayth No Iew Pagan or other that doth refuse our Creed being able to prooue that he who hath made other things frutefull Isa 66. v. 9. hath not a supereminent fecūditie in himself or that God being intellectuall doth not produce a Word infinite as his intellection and equall to himself and consubstantiall Or that these two diuine Persons Father and Sonne by their comprehensiue mutuall loue doe not produce a third Person immanent also and infinite as the loue and therfore in substance all one with the Father and the Sonne though distinct in proprietie as proceeding from them both 39. But wee are heere briefely out of the Prophets whom the Iewes receaue to declare the diuinitie of the Messias And this wee can easilie for though the old Scripture hath not all mysteries so cleerlie God reseruing vnto himself the reuelation of some till he came in Person yet there is enough for our purpose I will here onely repeate a part of that I finde The places are so forcible that they cannot be auoided and therefore the Iewes haue ēdeuoured to corrupt the text but too late for the cause was wonne on our side longe before and the auncient Rabbines are for vs. Ps 2. v. 6.7 I saith the Messias am appointed Kinge ouer Sion c. and the lord said to me King of Siō Thou art my Sonne I this daie of eternitie haue begotten thee And Dauid The lord said to my * his Word Paraphr Chald. the Messias Antiq. Heb. Ps 109. v. 1.7 v. 3. Psal 44. and cited allso by to this purpose by the Apostle Hebr. 1 lord sitte on my right hand an honour importing equalitie with thee the begining in the daie of thy strength in the brightnes of holy things from the wombe before the daie starre I begat thee And Thy throne o God for euer and euer a rod of equitie the rod of thy kingdome thou hast loued iustice and hated iniquitie therefore thee God thy God hath annointed
all sufficieÌ„t These two you must distinguish the first is here affirmed the second is not There must be meanes to knowe which is Scripture which Booke which Chapter which verse and to know the sense of it And herein wee must be directed by the Spirit of the Church Wee must take the Scripture from her hands and the meaning of it from her mouth Harke what the same Apostle saith in an other place 2. Thess 2.15 Hold the Traditions you haue learned whether it be by word or by our Epistle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But of this you shall heare more here after It is sufficient here that no place of Scripture doth contradict the doctrine of the Church and your labour to prooue it is all vaine for that Spirit which directed the writers of Gods word doth allso direct the Church to the sense of it and therefore it is vnpossible for any man to finde Opposition betwixt the Church and Gods word 34. Stay now let vs looke on the contradictions all together in could blood before we goe The first God forbids to giue soueraigne honour to any but to him selfe Papists say an inferior and relatiue honour may be giuen to the pictures of Christ and his Saincts The secoÌ„d Antichrist is opposite vnto and extolled aboue all that is called God and sits in the Temple of God shewing himselfe as if he were God Papists The Pope is Christs Vicar here vppon earth and Pastor of his Churth The third The Eucharisticall bread is the participation of the body of our lord Papists it is not the participation of bakers breade but of the true body of Christ in forme of breade The fourth If I pray in a toÌ„gue my Spirit prayeth but my minde is without fruite Papists It is not necessarie that Priests say Masse in the vulgar tongue The fift Abraham beleeued God that he should be Father of many Nations and it was imputed to him to iustice Papists Iustifying faith is not that whereby N. N. beleeues his sinnes are forgiuen him The sixt The Apostles were commanded all to drinke the cuppe Papists The lay people are not commanded to drinke the cuppe The seuenth All Scripcure is profitable to teach c that the man of God may be perfect instructed to euery good worke Papists Traditions are to be receaued the Scripture is not by itselfe all sufficient This is the substance of that which hath bene here discussed Good logicians be modest or go peripatize with your Aristotle some where els I sit and you stand in the same schoole are contradictories according to the rule by which our nimble Masons do builde their newe Church but A man is iustified by works and not by faith onely A man is not iustified by works but by faith onely are not contradictorie though you meane workes done by grace and in grace a litle newe morter may dawbe them both together for if ye marke the one of them is true in the iudgment of S. Iames the Apostle and the other is true in the iugdment of Mr. Iohn Caluin and so they are not secundum idem THE FIFT CHAPTER Other places of Scripture are answered 35. BEing past the monstrouse Argument which thought to affright me wich the multitude of his heades I was going on to cite Scripture against you but an other Chimaera meets me in the Way Iohn White in his preface to the way had made his bragge that ProtestaÌ„ts haue Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie on their side And being to make this good in his Defence I Whites Defense â— 8. n. 4. hath pickt out such places as he thought of most aduantage and most cleere Parte of them are the same with some of those I haue allready spoken of in the former Chapter The rest I will runne ouer briefly beare with me if I be longer in this point then you desire The first An Angell would not be adoared by S. Iohn but refused it saying see thou doe not Apoc. 1â— 10 22 v. 9â— I aÌ„ thy fellowe seruaÌ„t adore God The Apostle againe another tyme fell downe to adore the Angell and it was againe answeared as before Answ It is cleere by this text that the Angell refused to be adored by S. Iohn and this wee beleeue But it is not said here that it is ill to adore an Angell yea in the iudgment of S. Iohn it was conuenient and being told of it he still beleeued it to be conuenient for he did offer notwithstanding the first refusall to doe it the second tyme. The place therefore is against you Neither is there any difficultie in the matter for S. Iohn might well offer it and the Angell considering how deare the Apostle was to the Sonne of God and lord of Angells and how greate his Apostolicall dignitie was might well refuse it So v. Bede S. Anselme and others vppon this place Luke 17.10 36. The second When you haue done all things that are commanded you say wee are vnprofitable seruants wee haue done that which wee ought to doe This is brought to exclude all merite from our actions donne by and in grace But it comes to short first because here is speach onely of things commanded Matth. 19.21 â— Cor. 7. v. v. 25.38.40 now there are other actions not commanded and by those at leaste wee may merite notwithstanding this sentence Secondly God by creation is Lord of all his creatures and men thereby are naturallie bound to serue him 2. Pet. â—â— Iohn 1.12 By grace men are made partakers of the diuine nature and are sonnes of God and he their Father Wherefore if as seruants they could not merite as by nature indeed they cannot as children they might Seruants are vnprofitable if their masters profit come not from their seruice howsoeuer they may be peraduenture good husbands for theÌ„ selues And this place hath nothing to the contrary Thirdly our labour is vnprofitable to God our lord and Master for he is neuer the better for that wee doe being infinitelie happie in him selfe but it may be profitable to our selues and this is not here denied 37. The 3. Blessed are the dead which die in our lord from hence forth now saith the Spirit that they rest from their labours for their works follow them This place is brought against Purgatorie or paines after this life Apoc. 14.13 suffered by such as depart in the grace of God But it is so farre from being cleere to this purpose S. Aug. l. 20 Ciuit. c. 9. that it rather helpes our cause Some with S. Augustine vnderstand the place of Martyrs and Martyrs instantlie goe to heauen wherefore in that way there is no difficultie S. Ansel vppon this place in the words Others with S. Anselme interprete from hence that is from the Resurrection or generall Iudgment and they are grounded in the discourse of the Chapter This way hath no difficultie neither for all immediately after that tyme are
Scripture and Gentiles learned in Philosophy did labour to suppresse Christianitie and to disproue and discredit these miracles by which it was confirmed and proued to be diuine On the other side were the Christians persecuted and molested for this doctrine and to be depriued of their goods honours libertie countrey and liues Both sides did examine earnestly the truth of things the one because they would suppresse the Religion begining to spred it self the other because it did concerne their liues and further their eternall estate The memorie of things was fresh and both sides were present vnto the tyme and place A more eager inquisitiō a greater cause there was neuer any You knowe the issue The poore fisher-mē did preuaile There were innumerable and among them as wise men as greate Schollers as the world had euer any gaue their liues in testimony of the truth Our aduersaries were confounded Miracles still encreased The world became Christian and still continueth so He that notwithstanding all this will not beleeue those things were donne and that indeede they were miracles is constrained to see a miracle strange without example before his owne eies He sees that now the world beleeues the obscure Christian Creede persuaded thereunto by a fewe poore cōtemned and vnlettered fisher-men Reade S. Aug. de ciuit l. 22. c. 5 this miracle effected by fishermen they must see whith their eies and therefore vnles they will denie that which with their owne eies they see they must graunt that those poore men could and haue donne a miracle 48. If at the tyme when the Apostles did receaue their commission to teach the world a man should haue demāded whether those fishermen were euer like to bring to passe this greate worke which wee see with our eies now that is whether they were like to make the World Christian it would haue bene thought incredible vnpossible Considering the hardnes and obscuritie of the Doctrine they were to preach the Learning of the Philosophers with whom they not brought vp in Schooles were to encounter the diuersitie of iudgmēt in the world in things farre more intelligible no Master hauing euer beene able to winne so many followers in things more cleere considering allso the sundry conditions lawes customes formes of gouerment in the World which before was neuer brought vnder ONE COMMON RVLE or lawe by any man and especially if the violent Oppositions of Princes Emperours and the World in commō had beene foreseene Since therefore this greate worke incredible and vnpossible in mans iudgment is effected as wee see and by those simple men by the Disciples of Iesus it is euident that a supernaturall and diuine power did worke by them You know that Plato one of the Witts of the World was long about a Common wealth and could neuer make it any where but in his minde Philosophie hath beene labouring many thousand yeeres to vnite all vnderstandings in the grounds of Nature cleere in thē selues and within the compasse of mans witte but with all her Schooles she cannot effect her purpose the lōger she teacheth the more men disagree The Arabian Impostor to winne the people laid open a wide path towards a sensuall Paradise tempering his Religion to the popular taste and lest any thing should hinder his diffusiō gotte the Turkish sword to make his waie No maruaile then if there be many in that sinke either willinglie descending to the sense or tumbled downe by force The Fisher-mē hauing neuer heard Philosophy speake out of her pulpit were to make the Schooles beleeue a darke obscure Creede being vnarmed they were to meete the Sword They had no sooner begunne their taske but mens hāds were full of bookes against their doctrine and the world in horrour affrighted with the tormēts prouided for their Schollers Yet vnlerned and vnarmed as they were notwithstanding the violent oppositions of sensualitie Power ād Hell it self they haue brought their Creede ād discipline Posteritie being astonished at the euent into Nations into Courts into the whole World and so powerfully that it hath bē vniuersallie diffused these sixteene hundred yeeres And heereby haue raised a Church vnto their Master Iesus Christ greater thē all the Societies all States all Kingdomes all Monarchies that euer were before 49. I haue now donne what I intented in this place onelie because the thing I speake of is a Church let me a little looke vppon it in that forme The house of God you knowe is founded in faith raised by hope couered with charitie Faith is the foundation the walls Hope and Charitie is the roofe In faith the Apostles were eminent as being Masters of Christianitie and are therefore Mountaines whereon the rest of the Church doth stand according to the Prophetie Isa 2. In the later daies the Mountaine the house of our Lord shall be prepared in the toppe of moūtaines They were eminent in sāctitie likewise whereuppō another Prophetie Psal 86. The foundations thereof in the holie Mountaines And what the Apostles taught the Prophets as being eleuated aboue others with whom they liued to see things farre of did foretell and after their manner also teach so as they come in within the cōpasse of the Foundation too wherefore the Apostle in his Epistle to the Ephesiās You saith he are citizēs of the Saincts Ephes 2. and the domesticalles of God built vppō the Foūdation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the highest corner stone in whom the building framed together groweth vnto an holie Temple in our Lord in whom you are also built together into an habitatiō of God in the holie Ghost These Apostles and Prophets doe relie vppon Iesus Christ a MOVNTAINE in regard of his knowledge Power and Sanctitie wherein as mā he doth excell men and Angells all together and as God he is infinite in each of them On him beīg the prime Veritie ād the increated Word of God the Father profound in all kinde of perfection immoueable and eternall the Catholique Church doth stand On him the Apostles on the Apostles Christian men are built as liuing stones held togeather by Cōmunion ād raised vp by strōge Hope towards heauen to the very sight of God Be yee quoth S. Peeter superedified as it were liuing stones spirituall houses In the golden roofe 1. Pet 2. millions of Sainctes do shine ād giue light to the edificatiō of others The Pillars are the Pastors who strongly support the Building and are wōderfullie disposed in Order Hierarchicall according to the forme of that which is in the Angelicall Church in heauen In these Pillars all the Vertues are aliue The Dore of this Temple knowne generallie by the name of Baptisme is open to all parts of the world ād infinite do enter washed cleane as they come in So the Prophet In that day shall be a Fountaine lying open to the house of Dauid Zach. 13. vnto the Inhabitants of Ierusalem for the ablution of the Sinner This water taketh away the spottes
of sinne out of the soule so that it cometh in to the Church purer then the Sunne and there findes the breade of life breade of Angells the medicine of immortalitie the fouÌ„taine of all good and consummation of Sacraments the holie Eucharist to feede vppon Euery where there are Altars wherevppon is Sacrificed vnbloodilie the Lambe of God that taketh away the sinne of the world according as IESVS our high Priest Priest for euer according to the Order of Melchisedech did institute and ordaine In the way to these Altars are Tribunalls wherein those doe sitte who can open Heauen to the PeniteÌ„t where the Priest doth forgiue trespasses comitted against God Heauen approuing the Sentence of a man I will giue to thee Peeter Matt. 16. 18. the keies of the kingdome of heauen Whatsoeuer you shall loose in earth shall be loosed also in heauen whose sinnes you shall forgiue they are forgiuen them Ioan. 20. and whose you shall retaine they are retained Heere are the Doctors Euangelists Prophets and Pastors of whom wee reade in S. Paul Heere are Isaies Kings and Queenes Abrahams Starrs the Temples of the Holie Ghost and Gods Elect. All Tribes and People and tongues all Nations all the ends of the Earth doe come hither and adore in this Mount of our Lord in this House of God Heere the Holie Ghost still abideth illuminating directing Sanctifying and before him a hundred thousand harts burne euer in the flames of diuine loue Here some are weeping for their sinnes others meditating on the Passion others teaching and instructing the people others defining in generall Councell others conuerting Nations others adoring the souueraigne will of God others suffering for his sake In the Quire innumerable tongues are imployed daie and night in the praise of their Creator and Redeemer And round about are Watchmen that neuer hold their peace Lift vp thine eyes o IERVSALEM round about and see all these are gathered together they are come vnto thee Thy somes are come from a farre and thy daugthers are risen from thy side See and abound let thy hart maruaile and be dilated for the multitude of the Sea is conuerted and the streingth of Gentiles comes vnto thee Enlarge the place of thy tent and stretch out the skinnes of thy Tabernacles spare not make long thy cords and fasten thy nailes behold thou doest penetrate to the right hand and to the left thou art dilated to the East and to the West and to the North and to the South The Gentiles doe walke by thy light and Kings in the brightnes of thy rising Kings are thy nourcing Fathers and Queenes thy Nources The children of them that humbled thee come crouching now aÌ„d adore the stepps of thy feete Thy God hath established thee his throne as the dayes of heauen and hath made thee the pride of worlds a ioy vnto generation and generation thou art a crowne of glorie in the hand of our Lord and the Diademe of a kingdome in the hand of thy God 50. This Church the SPOWSE of Iesus Christ holding in her hand the BOOKE OF GOD doth contemplate and behold therin as in a glasse her OWNE SELF she beholds there her owne greatnes her owne proportion her owne face And such is the rare puritie and perfection of this glasse shee beholds there also her doctrine her inwarde composition her life and sowle The proposition of the Obiect is supernaturallie made vnto her in most cleere and euident circumstances And by the infallible operation of the All-teaching Spirit she is directed in her act By these two powerfull certaine meanes she is so constaÌ„tly setled in her faith that if the world shrink vnder feete shee will not leaue the truth Repeate now the first Chapter and reade there in PROPHECIE that which worlds of people since haue beheld with their EIES and still do reade I saie and consider it diligentlie to the end you may see how one is verified in the other that Prophecie in this Church and this Church in that Prophecie And hereby you will vnderstand at leingth by gods grace both that Prophecie and this Church to be from one and the same cause and prime author whose prouidence and power are so vniuersallie eminent that none can frustrate his designe or hinder an euent which he foretold and therfore both diuine and both from God 51. From this Church and from no other I take my direction for eternitie My owne witte might runne amisse I might mistake in the estimation of the Spirit in mee if I went alone And I were mistaken manifestlie if I followed any that swarued from the Spirit of this communitie And an other communitie like this the world neuer sawe The consent of so many worlds of people in an obscure Creede is an euident argument of a supernaturall cause vniting their vnderstandings It was ouer the world before Constantine and yet all Princes were against it in this consent and consequently of a diuine Spirit mouing them For all these Nations were neuer much lesse all this tyme of sixteene hundred yeers actualy subiect to any one Prince or State and the light of nature doth vnite many in one principle or Conclusion but by way of euidence which is not here in our Creede Further wee knowe that Schollers neuer yet agreed so generallie in things subiect vnto the naturall power of their vnderstanding neither can any man aliue finde out or assigne and defend against a Scholler any naturall cause of this vnitie in beleefe The infinite miracles illustrious and vndeniable in this Church are an euident argument that the Author of nature is in it changing the common course of things to the astonishment of the world thereby to drawe the eies of all vppon this Companie where they may see and learne the seruice of their Creator The vniformity of this Companie of Gentiles to the descriptioÌ„ made before in Prophecie and the Reprobation of the Iewish Nation left now without Temple without Sacrifice without Prophet without miracle without any argument of Gods presence and true seruice amonge them are an euident argument that this Companie and the Messias Church described in the Scripture are all one VVherefore worthily did our predecessors and wee doe worthily rest in the communion of this companie And since mortall man with his industrie caÌ„ goe no higher nor better resolue himself in diuine and heauenly â—â—â—ires being heere arriued he meetes with Gods prouidence to conduct him to securitie Is a man moued to beleeue by example aÌ„d consent here are worlds in our communion and this so ample as the like is no were to be fouÌ„d Is he moued with Miracles here are infinite The blinde see the lame walke the deade arise and of this wee haue as greate euidence as man can desire Is he moued with the common and vniforme resolution of the learned heere are generall Decrees made in Councells Oecumenicall by the wisest of all the world the prime Schollers and grauest men comming
all did which you will neuer prooue as long as the Bible is extant If you reade Exodus in the two and thitieth chapter you shall finde that when Moyses had saide if any man be our Lords let him ioyne to me there gathered vnto him all the Sonnes of Leuie Exod. 32.26 And these were no small company as you may gather out of the booke of Numbers Num. 3. v. 39. Next you say Elias did complaine that he was left alone This makes a shewe and is repeted ouer and ouer in your books and your pulpittes The truth is that there were at the same tyme diuers in Israel where this Prophet was 3. Kings 19. v. 18. Rom. 11.4 which bowed not before Baal of which number God said to Elias he would reserue seauen thousand And at the same tyme allso in the kingdome of Iuda there was publique profession of the true religion at Ierusalem Wherefore you cannot prooue by this place that the Church failed and was not visible on the earth if wee would graunt you as you haue seene wee neede not that it was not visible in the kingdome of Israel at that tyme. Neither was it necessarie to the visibilitie of it that it should be still visible in both kingdomes one of thē onelie doth suffice for this purpose in case all in the other had forsaken God Let vs now come to the Catholique and Christian Church 86. In the second argument you taxe the Apostles 1. Rainold◠and first accuse S. Peeter of false doctrine because he was reprehended by S. Paul Then further you condemne the Apostles all of errour against faith in not beleeuīg the resurrection To that of S. Peeter which old Heretiques obiected it was answeared fourteene hundred yeers agoe that it was a fault of conuersation which he was taxed for not of doctrine The fault is set downe by S. Paul in these words Gal. 2.12 for before certaine came frō Iames he Peeter did eate with the Gentiles but when they were come he withdrewe and separated himselfe fearing them that were of the circumcision This cariage of S. Peeter S. Paul did repre-to Iudaize his making others by his example hend and was in this But here is no false doctrine maintained ād published by him much lesse by the Apostles all taught and generallie by the Church beleeued whereof wee speake now In the conuersatiō of the Popes which you taxe by this occasion there may haue bene faults allso for they were men but from them in generall Councells there hath come no false doctrine nor euer will 87. The second parr of your obiection hath no difficultie because wee knowe that the Apostles did learne the particulars of faith by degrees as you may obserue easilie in the Gospell ād their slownes to beleeue the point mentioned but not any errour maintained by them for Christian doctrine was reprehended Neither was the all-teaching Spirit as yet come our Sauiour not being ascended who therefore did instruct thē in the matter his owne selfe Now the thinge that wee defend is not that the Apostles beleeued all in particular from the first tyme they were called or that in conuersation nothing euer hapned amisse in any one of them but that after the comming of the holie Ghost the Catholique Church did neuer beleeue or teach errour in matter of faith which I would haue you to read ouer and ouer that you mistake not the matter but argue to the purpose 88. A third argument which I thought good to put in this place touches the resolution of our faith into the Church which resolution seemes not firme because it is made into authoritie not diuine To this I answeare that the authoritie of the Church alone if you consider it apart not adding thereunto the authoritie of the Assisting Spirit is greater then any other authoritie in the world that is distinct from the diuine authoritie And this by reason of an infinite multitude of learned and holy men which are in it of infinite miracles which doe giue testimonie of a greatnes which nature wonders at of the strange vnion of worlds of people in one obscure faith with a constancie which neither flattery nor feare can shake which vnion doth acknowledge no cause in nature since nature inclines not so constantlie to communion ād vniforme iudgment in things not found in nature as God incarnate the sonne in substance and power all one with his Father ād yet distinct in person and the like The authoritie I say of the Church by reason of these and such other motiues is the greatest of all authorities among men in so much that no other is any way equall to it and therfore none able to drawe a wise man from it 89. Yet this alone is not the thing wherevnto wee do make the last resolution of our faith But wee make it into the testimonie of allmightie God in the Church This testimonie doth originallie moue our faith The sunne is allwayes visible in it selfe but cannot be seene of vs vnles it be in the Orbe aboue our hemisphere and when it is risen the eleuation doth not principallie moue our eie but the sunne in that eleuation doth moue it to see both sunne and heauen and all other things which the light comes vppon So Gods eternall word of it selfe is euer apt to moue and to be seene though wee cannot discouer it with the eie of faith vnles it be exposed or proposed to vs in the firmament of the Church or some other way equiualent But if it be so applied our faith discerns the word and the Church proposing it and all other things that are reuealed Wherein the Church-proposition doth concurre instrumentallie with subordination to the Word of God and of them both in seuerall kinds our faith depends 90. Wee resolue therefore into authoritie truely diuine into the diuine Spirit teaching in the Church Or if you will haue a longer way which in effect is all one wee do resolue into the present Church assisted with the Spirit This present Church doth resolue into the Church in the former age assisted by the Spirit that againe into a former age ād so to the Apostles they resolue into Christ Where you finde the like as before that is the eternall and increated word mouing by way of humane speach and the Apostles faith depending though diuerslie on both at once that is on the eternall word as on the originall motiue and on the word of his mouth as on the Application 91. If you would haue yet another waie take the motiues of faith all together or the collection of them as applications and the prime veriry as formall obiect and you haue all that you iustlie can desire In the collectiō of motiues I doe include the whole Church these sixteene hundred yeares and the Apostles and Iesus Christ as he appeared and taught and all the miracles done in cōfirmation of the Christian Catholique faith the conuersion of the world from bad
England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee ◠2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you ād for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not cōsequēte that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge ō all ād thinkes to make an ēd of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The whol◠Church militant consisting of mē Wh◠are lyers may erre alltogethe◠as euery part thero◠Fulk ans◠to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were assēbled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumēt did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseuerāce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue foūd and haue bene forsakē by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted frō the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds ād of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their absēce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demaūd why the Catholiques of Englād be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasō ād to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with thē in this manner before you giue euidēce that you are not in errour since you likewise are mē and all mē may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater thē any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the Euāgelists Apostles ād Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe ād cā prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all mē may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her
it filles no place He is the Creator and may doe as he list The Bodie of our Sauiour in the Sacrament hath not situall extension or Localitie it succeeds into the roome of breade Before breade was vnder those dimensioÌ„s which you see and the body succeeds to bread wherefore the body is now vnder the same It is true that the nature of a bodie requires extensioÌ„ but God is Author of nature and needs nor paie but when he please his DominioÌ„ is absolute Humane nature hath a proper subsistence due vnto it yet in Christ it hath none but diuine 39. To your question how this is donne I answere that other Infidels had the like difficultie in other matters as how he who filles heauen and earth should be in a Mothers armes a little child Almightie God Do you vnderstand how this doth come to passe how is the indiuisible Substance of God in each part of the world all S Chrys in Ep. ad Heb Hom. 2. S Cyrill Alexand. l. 4. in Ioan. c. 13. Reade here an â—xcellen discourse â—o this â—urpose I said God is euery where saith a learned Father but I doe not vnderstand it I say that he is without begining but doe not vnderstand it I say that he hath begott a Sonne c. You should attend to the counsell of S. Cyrill in such high things neuer to question how when God works leaue the way and the knowledge of his worke vnto himselfe As the heauens are exalted aboue the the earth so are my wayes exalted aboue your wayes Isa 55. and my cogitations aboue your cogitations saith allmightie God This how is the Iewes question in this matter as the Father before named doth wel obserue Our Sauiour had said that the bread which he would giue was his flesh 10. 6. aÌ„d that he who did eate it should liue for euer Wherevppon the Iewes moued this questioÌ„ how can this man giue vs his flesh to eate If they had beleeued he was God they might then haue knowne that he was able to turne breade into his flesh and so giue it in the forme of breade to be eaten but they did not beleeue him to be God aÌ„d therefore moued the question how Which question I leaue a while in your mouth and betake my selfe to the text where I finde that he gaue his bodie and blood to the disciples and thus I argue 39. If Iesus Christ true God and therefore allmightie did affirme in expresse termes that the Eucharist which he gaue his Disciples was his bodie and bloode wee are to beleeue it was so since God is Truth and Truth cannot lie but Iesus Christ whom you confesse and I haue declared to be true God l. 2. c. 4â— and allmightie did affirme in expresse termes that the Eucharist which he gaue his disciples was his bodie and blood therefore wee are to beleeue it The Proposition you will not question for you professe you are a Christian l. 2. and if you were none there is inough said in another place to make you graunt it The AssuÌ„ption is cleere in the Gospell THIS IS MIE BODIE Mat. 26. THIS IS MIE BLOOD And further yet that men should not mistake our Sauiours meaning he our Sauiour did adde such attributes to this Bodie and Blood as cannot agree to Breade and Wine Luc. 22. 1. Cor. 11. or is deliuered This is my Bodie which is giuen for you this is my bodie which shall be deliuered for you Was breade giuen for vs were wee redeemed with breade was bread crucified for the redemption of the world Mat. 26. This is my blood of the new Testament which shall be shedde for manie vnto remission of sinnes Was wine the blood of the new Testament was wine shed for remission of Sinnes No it was the true blood of Iesus Christ Luc. 22. This is the Chalice the new Testament in my blood which Chalice shall be shed for you or is shed The Chalice that is the thing in the Chalice is shed for vs. Is this thing wine or blood If wine then you are redeemed with wine wine was in the side of Iesus Christ If the thing in the Chalice were blood then blood true blood the blood wherewith wee were redeemed was there in the Chalice 10. 6. and the Disciples dranke it In an other place he said allso the bread which I will giue is my flesh vnles you eate the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his blood you shall not haue life in you my flesh is meate indeede and my blood is drinke indeede he that eateth my flesh aÌ„d drinketh my blood 1. Cor. 10. abideth in me and I in him And the Apostle The Chalice of benediction which wee do blesse is it not the communication of the blood of Christ and the bread wee * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doe sacrifice vnbloodilie as in the next ch v. 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And your Caluin doth acknowledge this sense frangi saith he vppon that place Interpreter immolari 1. Cor. 11. breake is it not the participation of the bodie of our Lord whosoeuer shall eate this bread or drinke the Chalice of our Lord vnworthilie he shall be guiltie of the bodie aÌ„d of the blood of our Lord. He that eateth and drinketh vnworthilie eateth and drinketh iudgment to himselfe not discerning the bodie of our Lord. And you too discerne it not you esteeme it bakers bread You doe not beleeue that it is the bodie of our Lord. You doe not beleeue that it is heauenlie breade That it is the flesh of Christ that the Chalice is the communication of blood that the blood of Christ is drinke and his bodie meate that Christ is is in him that hath eaten this breade This you beleeue not but are content with common bread and wine Common wine with you is the Testament of Iesus Christ it issued out of his side you were redeemed with it and bakers breade was crucified for your sinnes THE SEVENTH CHAPTER The Fathers vnderstood the Reall Presence as wee doe 40. FOr the Reall Presence out of Antiquitie are cited Iustinus the Martyr Ireneus TertulliaÌ„ Hilarius both the Cyrills Ambrose Epiphanius Hesichius Optatus Augustine Ierom Leo Gregorie and others by Zanchez Coccius Garetius and Gualterius Your answere is that all are to be vnderstode of a figuratiue and not a reall Presence You thinke the Bodie and Blood are in heaueÌ„ onelie and no neerer but wine and breade you say are equiuocallie called the blood and Bodie though they be indeede nothing els but signes This deuice doth not satisfie For the Fathers haue directlie expressed all the conditions of a reall Presence to the verie last and will not be contented with your figure This I delare 41. First because in conceauing the Institution of a signe there is no difficultie it was easie to say and for men to vnderstand that breade was a signe or figure of the bodie if
donne It is not common bread it is not breade it is not that which nature made The Fathers breade is made the bodie of Christ that in the Sacrament is flesh it is the flesh of Christ made of bread the nature is changed nature it selfe is changed it is changed by Gods omnipotencie it is transelemented The senses may be deceaued beleeue theÌ„ not beleeue the words of Christ It is not breade though the tast esteeme it so it is changed not in shape but in nature it is the flesh which suffered for vs that which did hange vppon the crosse the price of our redemption It is the Lord of Angells he is heere on earth and thou receauest him He is sacrificed on the Altar the Sonne of God is againe sacrificed for vs the LaÌ„be that taketh away the sinnes of the world is offered in sacrifice by Priests without slaughtering Wee offer an vnbloody sacrifice in the Church it is offered euery where it is the same which Christ offered The victime is dispenced from the Altar wee doe eate the lambe entire Christ he is the feast the Angells tremble when they behold that wherwith wee are fed Christ is worshipped on the Altar wee adore the flesh of Christ in the mysteries the mysticall signes are adored as beiÌ„g that they are beleeued to be That in the Chalice is not wine it is blood it is that which did issue out of the side of our Sauiour VVee drinke blood wee drinke blood with our mouthes it is powered into our mouthes that which faith beleeueth the same wee receaue with our mouth wee receaue the bodie and blood of Iesus Christ with our mouth into our bodies into our members So the Fathers Our B. Sauiour This is my body this is my blood I conclude with S. Hilarie S. Hilar. l. 2 de Trinit There is no place left of doubting of the truth of the flesh and blood for now both by our Sauiours profession and our beleefe it is trulie flesh and truelie blood And these being receaued and drunke do bringe to passe that wee be in Christ and CHRIST IN VS THE EIGTH CHAPTER Of Transubstantiation 56. IN the Councell of Trent is defined the conuersion of breade and wine into the bodie and blood of Christ which conuersion is there and in the Lateran Councell termed by a proper name transubstantiation To these Councells and to the AuncieÌ„t Fathers aboue cited you oppose a fewe obscure sentences One out of an Epistle of one Iohn of ConstaÌ„tinople falslie attributed to S. Chrysostome Another out of one Gelasius whom to make your argument seeme the stronger you stile Pope but falslie as Baronius and others haue demonstrated against your Caluin The third out of Theodoret a knowne Aduersarie of your cause Ep. ad Caes Mon. 57. The first Chrysostome saith the nature of the breade remaines Answere It is false sainct Chrysostome saith expreslie it is changed as you shall heare anon The Epistle which you cite is a refutation of Eutichianisme which beganne many yeares after S. Chrysostome was deade Chrysostomus videtur traÌ„substantiationoÌ„ confirmare nam ita scrible moÌ„ vidos paneÌ„ num vinuÌ„ num sicut reliqui tibi in secessum vadunt absit nec sic cogites nam sicut cera c. Magdeb cent 5. c. 4. col 517. the Author of it is also against you for he saith in the same place that there are not in the Sacrament of the Eucharist two bodies but one and that one the bodie of the soÌ„ne of God This man you see was not yours in this point his doctrine take it all is not curraÌ„t among you for if there be in the Eucharist onlie One bodie and this One the bodie of the sonne of God then breade in substance is not there because the bodie of Christ and naturall breade be not one and the same bodie by the nature he meaneth the proprietie or naturall qualitie of the breade which is allso called the nature and this doth remaine 58. The second Gelasius saith De Duab. naturis the substance or nature of breade doth not leaue to be Answere The meaning of this man is that it is not annihilated but the substance is turned into another thing and so as it remaines not in it selfe for it is turned but in the proprietie or proper accidents tast colour c. All this the same Author teacheth in the verie same place in these words they the substance of breade and wine do passe into a Diuine substance the holie Ghost effecting it yet remaining in the proprietie of their nature wherefore this maÌ„ whosoeuer he be is noe ProtestaÌ„t in this for he that holds the substance of breade and wine to be conuerted by the power of God into a Diuine substance the bodie and blood of Christ is no meere Figurist nor of your Schoole but this Author did old it as you finde in his owne words therefore he was not a Protestant as you are Theodor. Dial. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 manent enim in prioris substantiae figura forma or manent enim in riri esentia c. Idem Dial 2 Idem transsubstantiationem videtur â—apere quod Theodoretusscribit sicut ergo Symbola c post innocationem 59. The third Theodoret saith our Sauiour deliuering the SacrameÌ„t called his bodie breade aÌ„d that which is in the Cuppe he called his blood he chaÌ„ged the names aÌ„d gaue his bodie the name which belonged to the signe and to the signe the name which belonged to his bodie Answere Reade further and you meete the solution of your difficultie The reason of the change of names was because he would haue such as partake the diuine sacraments not to heede the nature of those things which are seene the signes but for the change of names to beleeue allso the change that is made hy grace You replie out of another place the mysticall signes after consecration depart not from their nature but abide still in their former substance and figure and forme and may be seene and touched as before Answere It is true that the signes are not changed for those are Accidents those remaine but the substance whithin the signes or Accidents is changed The things are chaÌ„ged by reason of that which is interiour and within they are not changed by reason of that which is exteriour and without exposed to the sense mutantur alia fiuÌ„ c. Magd. cent 5. co 517. Ibidem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Theodoret proceeding saith they are vnderstood to be that they are made that is the bodie and blood of Christ and are beleeued and adored as beiÌ„g the things they are beleeued to be No man beleeues that breade is flesh No man doth beleeue these propositions to be true breade is a maÌ„s bodie breade is flesh flesh is breade No maÌ„ adoreth breade Now the Mysteries Theodoret saith are adored as being indeed the things which they are beleeued to be
immolated there is no vnbloodie d Sacrifice which is the flesh of Christ the lambe of God is not on the e Altar he is not offered in sacrifice by the Priest the Sonne of God is not f againe sacrificed for vs the sacrifice is not g dispenced from the Alter Compare 52. Seauenthly the Fathers did beleeue that the bodie of our Sauiour was present to our bodies and mouthes when wee receaue the Eucharist which is another euident argument that they thought it substaÌ„tiallie present here on earth where our bodies are for a thing which is in heauen only cannot be so present Wee denie not that wee are Spirituallie ioyned vnto Christ by true faith and sincere Charitie S. Cyr. Alex l. 10. in Io. c. 13. but that wee haue 1 no coniunction with him at all according to the flesh that verilie wee denie and affirme it to be contrarie to the diuine Scriptures aÌ„d because you are readie to runne to the Incarnation it followes a little after Doth he Nestorius thinke perchance that wee knowe not the force of the mysticall benedictioÌ„ coÌ„secratioÌ„ which being done in vs doth it not make Iesus Christ to dwell in vs 2 corporallie also with the communication of the flesh of Christ which thing he doth prooue there by Scripture and after declare with an example S. Aug. l 2. cont Adu Leg. c. 9. Wee receaue with faithfull hart and 3 mouth the Mediatour of God and man man Christ Iesus giuing vs his bodie to be eaten and his blood to be drunke though it seeme more horrible to eate maÌ„s flesh then to kill and to drinke mans blood then to shed it S. Leo. serm 7. de Ieiun meÌ„s 7. You ought so to communicate of the holie table that you doubt nothing at all of the truth of the bodie and blood of Christ for that is receaued with 4 the mouth which by faith is beleeued S. Greg. Dial. l. 4. c. 58. S. Greg. Nyss orat Catec c 37. His blood is powered into the mouthes of the faithfull Our Sauiour by his flesh entereth into all the faithfull and mingleth himselfe with their 5 bodies to the end that man being vnited to that which is immortall may attaine to be made partaker of Incorruption Wee are made 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hearers of Christ when wee haue receaued his bodie and blood into 6 our members S. Cyr. Hi. Catec 4. So the Fathers vnderstanding the bodie of Christ indeed to be in those dimensions and so to be in our bodie reallie when the Sacrament is in it and to be receaued with our mouthes Whereas you denying that he can be reallie here and in heauen too must gape as wide as heauen if you will receaue the signes and the bodie too with your mouth for the signes are here and the bodie and blood according to you are onelie there in that one place 53. The Protestant Opinion The flesh of Christ is 1 not neere vnto our flesh Christ is not 2 in vs corporallie Christ is not receaued with the 3 mouth that which is beleeued is neuer 4 in the mouth neuer neerer then heauen is to the earth the blood of Christ is no where but in heauen it is in no bodies mouth at any tyme. the flesh of Christ is not neere our 5 bodies it is as farre of as heauen is from earth the bodie of Christ is neuer 6 in vs. Compare 54. That which troubleth you did not moue the Fathers to discredit the word of God as you doe His omnipotencie was in the begining of their Creed as it is in ours Heare what they say of your doubtes The first S. Cyr. Hi. Catec 4 S. Chrys ho. â—3 Mat. Sense telles vs it is bread S. Cyrill though it seeme breade it is not bread S. Chrysost let our Sauiours words master our sense and reason His words cannot be vntrue our sense is many tymes deceaued The second It is not possible for one to haue his owne bodie in his owne haÌ„ds S. Augustine In what manner this may be vnderstood of Dauid or another pure man wee cannot finde S. Aug. in in Psal 33. conc 1. but wee finde it fulfilled in Christ for Christ was caried in his owne hands when commending his owne verie bodie he said this is my bodie for then he caried and held that bodie in his owne haÌ„ds If you did beleeue it were reallie in the Sacrament as the Fathers did you would neuer sticke at this nor at any other thing for all are grounded in the Sacramentall being The third Christ could not eate himselfe the Sacrament he might and did eate S. Ierom. He S. Hieron Ep. ad Hedib q. 2. Christ was the Banquetter and the Feast the eater and the thing eaten Wee drinke his bloode c. The fourth Christ is ascended S. Chrys hom 2. ad Pop. Ant. therefore his flesh is not here S. Chrysostom Christ both left vs his flesh and ascended hauing it The fift the bodie should by this time be all consumed for many thousands haue receaued it S. Grerie S. Greg. Nyss orat Cat. c. 37. Wee must enquire how it can possibile come to passe that the one onelye bodie of Christ which is allwaies thorough out the world imparted to so many thousands of the faithfull may be wholie in euerie one in particular and allso remaine whole and entire in it selfe His answere These things he Christ bestoweth by transelementing thorough the vertue of benedictioÌ„ the nature of those things which appeare of breade and wine into it his bodie The sixt A mans bodie cannot be in that forme S. Epiphanius When he Christ had giuen thankes he said this is my bodie and blood S Epiphaâ— in Ancora and yet wee see that it is not of equall bignes nor yet like for it hath no similitude with the image of that flesh which he tooke vpon him nor with the Diuinitie it selfe which cannot be seene nor with the lineaments and shape of members For this is of a round figure aÌ„d according to the power insensible yet he vouchsafed by his grace to say this is my bodie and blood neither may any man refuse to giue credit to his words The reall Presence a fundameÌ„tall point For he that beleeueth it not to be true falleth altogeather from grace and saluation 55. Being here come to the end of this Chapter I wish you now to consider how vnpossible a thing it is for you to make it euident that Antiquitie was with you against vs and to make such as haue witte and learning to beleeue it That which wee beleeue wee finde in the Fathers and the iudgment belonges not to you or me but to the Church which if the cause were obscure by the diuine Assistance promised and present to her could determine it but this cause is cleere the Fathers haue giuen as faire euidence as wee could wish Wee cannot yet expresse our meaning better then they haue