Christes death was a deprauation of nature and and an absence of righteousnes yet goddes hand foreordained it to be dō as the scripture testifieth If you had made your argument thus sinne is a deprauation of nature ergo god is not the autor nor propre worcker of it you shuld haue ben heard and alowed For it is not al one to ordaine sinne and to be the autor of sinne as you in your dreame make them al one whan you wot not what you speake But I must go farther first telle you that sondrie other of your aunsweres folowing ar nothing els but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pythagoraes he spake it which anie reader maie easely espie by him selfe And bicause your autoritie with me is as great as the popes mules maiestie I must telle you moreouer that I wil spend no time aboute your naked affirmations But it is a sporte to see how clerely you teach me logike I asked you this question he that saieth that Adams sinne was not don besides goddes wil meaneth he not that it was don by goddes wil To this you saie that my question pretendeth a simple conuersion bicause you doubte whether euer I red logike you vouchesafe gently to teach me what a simple conuersiō requireth But your lucke is euer vnhappie For while you labor to shew your selfe conning you shew that you haue lost your witte and al lerning to I haue red diligently though you frette more than I wold wishe for enuie the best autors that write of logike And thei teach that their be three maners of conuersions The first is called conuersio simplex And that is whan the same signes and the same qualite remaining the predicate is turned in to the subiecte and the subiecte in to the predicate And this chaunge is made only in an vniuersal negatiue a particular affirmatiue I must vse of force logike termes with a logician The exemple of an vvniuersal negatiue is this Noman that loueth god abhorreth the readīg of the scripture ergo noman that abhorreth the reading of the scripture loueth god Of a particular affirmatiue this maie be an exēple Some raging passion in a mannes herte is anger ergo some anger is a raging passion The seconde conuersion is called conuersio per accidens And that is whan the subiecte is made of the predicate and the predicate of the subiecte the same qualite remaining but the signes chaūged that is to saie the vniuersal turned in to a particular thus Euerie good thing is profitable ergo some profitable thinge is good The third is called conuersio per contrapositionem whā the subiecte is made of the predicate and the predicate of the subiecte so that by the remouing of the predicate the subiecte is remoued as what so euer is profitable is honest ergo what so euer is not honest is not profitable Now let a logician shew me in what cōuersion my quaestion is he that saieth that Adās sinne was not don besides goddes wil saieth that it was don by goddes wil. My scolemaster saieth it is in a simple conuersion But here the subiecte is not turned in to the predicate nor the predicate in to the subiecte but a declaration only is made that not besides goddes wil and by goddes wil is al one And this had ben a simple conuersion Adams sinne was not don besides goddes wil and goddes wil was not don besides Adams sinne Wherefore seing that in my question there is no simple conuersion my master affirming it so to be is a verie simple logician But he saieth moreouer that I shuld haue put the question thus he that saieth that Adams sinne was not don besides goddes wil meaneth he not that Adam sinned not besides goddes wil. Now this is the songe of a couckoo a tautologie and vaine repetition of the selfe same thinge or it importeth that the speeches be of one force and signifie the same thing after my meaning Who seeth not now that god hath sent such a swimming in to this adle hed that the mā knoweth not what he reproueth dut confirmeth his aduersaries saiyng while he wold ouerthrow it Let vs procede to this my syllogisme Whatsoeuer god suffreth to be don he willeth ordaineth to be don after S. Augustines meaning but god suffred Adam to sinne as no great saincte m. Masker graunteth ergo it was goddes wil that Adā shuld sinne this disguised popely person saieth that the maior and the conclusion be false But I wil proue the maior to be true and than I trust he wil not sticke to graunte the conclusion to be true For I am sure that he wil find no fault in the minor bicause it is his awne S. Aug. saieth that god suffreth nothing but by iust iudgement and that he suffreth nothing vnwilling If god suffre nothing besides his iust iudgement and his wil who seeth not that whatsoeuer god suffreth he willeth and ordaineth to be don by his iust iudgement For shewe me a thinge that he willeth to be don in the world and therefore is don in the world yet he ordained it not to be don For the scripture saieth that what soeuer he wold he hath don in heauen and in erth And he hath not brought anie thinge ro passe in the world besides his ordinance And S. Aug. saieth that this sentence of the scipture shuld not be true if god wold haue anie thinge to be don and neuertheles hath not don it But this new saīt dareth affirme that god wold that Adam shuld not haue sinned and yet brought it not to passe and so ouermalapertly or rather blasphemously ere he beware he accuseth the holie gost good S. Aug. of vntruthe But now I must heare his worthie syllogisme Bar. Taheron saieth / that it was goddes wil and ordinance / that Adam shuld sinne / but the worde of god / and S. Aug. saie cleane contrarie / ergo Bar. Traheron lieth I aunswer that my master with another lie saieth that I lie bicause his minor is shamelesly false For nether the word of god nor S. Aug. is against my saiyng but bothe make most plainly with it The trial whereof I permitte to the godlie As for the preatie plaies wherein he tōbleth himselfe afterwarde in his aunswere I haue disclosed before The similitude which he putteth of a king who perdoneth an offender according to his longe purpose before for the loue he beareth to him is verie poore as himselfe calleth it and as I maie adde to his awne saiyng verie peuisch to For he saieth that the king fulfilled his wil vpō the man and yet ordained not that the mā shuld offend And than he thincketh that he hath brought forth a meruailous monstre after a great terrible cracke But he must shew that god hath no more to do in ruling mennes mindes than a king hath in ruling the mindes of his subiectes if he wil bring anie thing to the purpose A temporal kinges power entreth not in to mennes hertes
wil as mē see that be awake Cold not god I praie you wil and ordaine Satans ministers to robbe Iob onles he delighted in their robberie for it selfe or of necessitee to auoide a greater inconuenience Cold not he wil and ordaine Achabs false prophetes to lie onles he delighted in their liyng for it selfe Cold not he wil and ordaine that Hophnie and Phineas shuld not heare their fathers good admonition bicause he wold kil them onles he delighted in their stubburne disobedience or of necessitee to auoid a greater inconuenience God than willeth thinges that he delighteth not in for them selues nether by reason of weakenes nor to auoide a greater inconuenience but to sette forth before mennes eyes his power his wisedom his righteousnes his goodnes and mercie Which vertues yet neuer to be knowen to the world we maie wel iudge to be an incōuenience touching vs but touching god it is none at al. For he might haue remained perfectly blisful in him selfe though he had neuer made vs. Awaie than with this vaine iangling But let vs se more of this gaie stuffe Our preatie Polyphemus wil not confesse that he goeth aboute to pulle god out of his throne For saieth he his office of gouerning consisteth not in this that it was his wil ordinance that Adam shuld sinne But if you take from god the ordaining gouerning and directing of Adās sinne and of al mennes sinnes you shal discharch him of a great parte of his gouernement and so farre like a young giaunt you go furiously aboute to pulle him out of his throne to your awne destruction But we ar demaunded an high quaestion how we can proue that thei which teach that it was not goddes wil that Adam shuld sinne do teach that thīges be dō whether god wil or no. I praie you master Doctor he that doeth the thing that you wold it shuld not be dō doeth he it not whether you wil or no But you saie that Adam sinned not whether god wold or no for god suffered him to sinne But that proueth not yet but that Adam sinned whether god wold or no. For one maie suffre a thinge to be don whether he wil or no. If you wil saie that god suffred it willingly than you graunt with vs that it was his wil that Adam shuld sinne And than you haue plaied the parte of a verie honest wise man al this while Where to myn aunswere that god testified to Adam by his commaundment what he alowed and what his pleasure was you replie that if god had willed decreed that Adā shuld through his awne faulte do the thīg which god had forbidden before god shuld therein haue willed and decreed the commaundment that he gaue before to be broken and than that had ben a contrarietee and repugnantie in him I aunswer that you haue more than serpentes eyes if you see that contrarietee and repugnantie You maie wel dreame that you see it in your sleepe but whan you awake you shal perceaue that it was but a vaine fansie a fliyng imagination For maie not a father laie vp apples in his chambre and giue a commaundment to his children that thei shal nor meddle with them and yet wil decree with him selfe as much as a mā maie wil and decree that thei shal steale them awaie and eate them to this ende that he maie ierke them wel and thriftely whereby while thei liue afterwarde thei maie feare to steale or to be lycorous or to breake their fathers commaundment Maie not I saie a father do al this onles he be contrarie and repugnant to him selfe Much more cold god wil decree that Adam shuld breake his commaundment thorough his awne faulte for a more excellent purpose without contrarietee repugnance in him selfe Whan afterwarde you saie that Adā in sinning did not the wil of god if by the word wil you meane goddes decree you misse the cusshion if by the word wil you meane that god alowed not Adams sinne ne had pleasure in it for the sinne it selfe I assente thereunto But how haue you than proued that it was not goddes wil decree and ordinance that Adam shuld sinne Against myn aunswer to the fourth argument spoken of in my boke you haue brought nothing worthie to be rehersed Wherefore I passe ouer to myn aunswer to the fift argument Against him that obiected Adams fre wil I said that goddes wil and ordinance letted not but that Adā shuld do frely and willingly without compulsion that he did And how that might be I shewed by exemples which you touch not bicause thei were to hotte But to that you replie that I wringe Adams free wil al together on the lift hand that is to sinne death but I leaue not free wil to the right hand that is to the keping of goddes commaundment and aeternal life I aunswer that god made Adam in such integritee vprightnes perfection of nature that whā he wold do goddes commaundmentes he might do them frely and willingly haue abundant sufficientie of natural strenghth thereunto and whan he wold decline from goddes commaundement he might do the same frely and willingly thorough his awne faulte and not thorough want of natural strength And I saie that his fre wil stode in this vprightnes strength perfection of nature not in choise of this or that For if there were no free wil but where a mā maie choose whether he wil do the thīg that is good or the thinge that is euil than there were no fre wil in god whose wil is most free For he can do no euil but only the thinges that be good Wherefore where thinges be don frely and willingly and wihout compulsion thorough no want of natural strength there is free wil saie I. And this I know was in Adam but no such fre wil whereby he might disappoint goddes certaine purpose or whereby it shuld folow that god had yet determined nothīg certainly But now though manie thinges powred out to no purpose folow in this replication I maie not passe ouer that where I asked whether he wold saie this Death came in to the world by the enuie of the diuel ergo it was not ordained by god he aūswereth flatly that death was not ordained by god And allegeth a sentence for him out of the first of wisedom God made not death nether hath he pleasure in the destruction of the liuinge To this I saie that the autor of that boke meaneth no more but that god was not the propre cause of death but the diuels enuie and mannes sinne and yet it foloweth not but that god ordeined death for mennes sinne For a king in his realme ordaineth hanginge for theues and murtherers and yet is not the propre cause of their hanging but their awne nawghtines And I saie once more that he that saieth that god ordaineth not death for mennes sinnes saieth that men die besides goddes ordinance But this geare is to grosse where with
⧠AN AVNSVVERE MADE BY BAR TRAHERON TO A PRIVIE PAPISTE vvhich crepte in to the english congregation of christian exiles vndre the visor of a fauorer of the gospel but at lenghth bewraied himselfe to be one of the popes asses thorough his slouche eares and than became a laughing stocke to al the companie whom he had amased before with his maske ¶ Hereunto is added the subscription of the cheifest of the companie first and afterward the subscriptiō of M. Ro. Watson alone in special wordes bicause he was cōpted the best lerned amonge the rest therefore his iudgement was most regarded and required ¶ Imprinted Anno. 1558. ⧠TO MASTER GILBERT ⧠BARCKLEY I Heard with great griefe of minde how a countrefaite papiste labored shamelesly to deface your most honest and godlie behauior towardes him with the foule name of simuled frenship flatterie And I know the tendernes of your herte and how much it euer iustly grieueth you that the good name that god hath giuen you shuld be blemished with false reportes impudent lies But I trust your wisedom is such that you wil not be longe trobled with the barckinges of so foule a mouthed mastife Wherefore I exhorte you to staie your selfe against this open iniurie vpō the ground of an honest vpright cōscience whereof sondrie that be here p̄sent haue longe time knowen you giue vndoubted testimonies haue seen most certaine frutes This mastife whose name I wil not vttre though it signifie that he came of a wilie generatiō hath opened his mouth against me also and hath enforced himselfe to scratch and teare me with his nailes But god of his goodnes hath giuen me alwaies where with to defende my selfe The defence that he hath now ministred vnto me against this three headed Cerberus bred longe fed in the popes kennel I dedicate to you my dere frēd master Barckley bicause you haue sustained parte of this crosse with me and haue aswel at this time as at manie other stode so ernestly in the defence of goddes truth that you haue therefore prouoked a slaūderous tounge against you God shal surely requite you with his fauor the lord Iesus shal giue you a good reporte in the last daie Praie for me and cease not to loue me as I loue you both for your other singular good qualities also for your honest godlie zeale that you haue shewed in this matter The lord Iesus conforte you Amen THis sentence of S. August I alleged to proue that al thinges cōme to passe bi goddes wil and ordinance These be the great and most exquisite worckes of god that where as the nature of man and angel had sinned that is to saie had dō not that he wold but that it wold euen by the same wil of the creature where by that was don that the creator wold not he fulfilled that he wold vsing wel euen euil thinges as good himselfe in the highest degree to the damnation of them whom he iustly foreordained to punishment and to the saluation of them whom he mercifully foreordained to grace For touching thē selues thei did that god wold not but touching the omnipotētie of god thei cold no waie do it For euen in this that thei did against goddes wil goddes wil was fulfilled vpon them or touching them For therefore great and exquisite ar the lordes worckes thorough out al his wil that after a meruailous and vnspeakable maner that is not don besides goddes wil that is don against goddes wil. In Enchirid. ca. 120. ¶ TO THIS HERE FOLOVVETH MASTER MASKERS REPLICATION SAint Aug. in the place by you alleged / speaking of the great / exquisite worckes of god / saieth that whan the nature of angels / and man had sinned / that is to saie / had don not that god wold / but that the same nature wold / that he by the wil of the same creature / whereby was don that / which the creator wold not / might fulfille that he wold Here haue you Saint Augustines sentence in these few wordes al readie twise against your assertiō / which is that it was the wil of god / that Adam shuld sinne For S. Augustine saieth that mā whan he sinned / did not that god wold And againe / did not that the creator wold And if you yet vndrestand not S. Aug. to be manifestly against you / than I counsel you / go to a logician / and aske of him / and he wil tel you / that your assertion / which is / that it was the wil of god / that Adam shuld sinne / and S. Augustines censure / which is / that man / whan he sinned / did not that god wold / be opposita contraria which striue so sore / that thei can not stāde to gether but the one ouerthroweth the other Further to make the matter more euident / S. Aug. saieth / that as pertaininge to them / that is to saie angel / and mā / thei did that god wold not / but as to the ōnipotentie of god / thei cold in no wise so haue dō / that is to saie haue sinned against the wil of god / which S. August by by interpreteth / that it was the wil of god to suffre them to sinne Hitherto master Masker And vpō these wordes of S. August that is not dō besides goddes wil / that is don against goddes wil / this wise doctor maketh this glosse That which is dō against the wil of god / ys yet not don besides his wil / that is to saie in suffringe ¶ HERE VPON I SENT HIM THIS LETTRE BYcause you handle the place of Sainct Aug. bi me alleged after such sorte as you had neuer red anie other sentence in him I wil desire you to read and to aunswer these few places more ouer These be S. Aug. wordes in the. 3. bo de trinitate Nothing is don that procedeth not out of the inward intelligible courte of the soueraine emperour according to his vnspeakable iustice For where doeth not the wisedō of almightie god worcke that he wil which reacheth from ende to ende strōgly and disposeth al thinges swetely Againe S. Aug. hath these wordes It is than this wil only from which is sprounge what soeuer is Item Nothinge set in mannes free wil ouercōmeth the wil of god though man do against goddes wil yet against his wil which is him selfe we ought to thincke nothing to be so dō as though he wold haue it to be don and it is not don or that he wold not haue to be don and it is don For that wil is euer fulfilled ether touching vs or of vs. Touching vs it is fulfilled but we fulfille it not whan we sinne Of vs it is fulfilled whan we do good Item so of man also god euer fulfilleth his wil for mā doeth nothinge whereof god worcketh not that he wil. Item goddes wil is the necessitee of al thinges I cold allege innumerable such places
seing that S. Pau. saieth that he hath vessels prepared vnto destruction Willeth not the death of those whom he hath prepared to destruction Againe how childish sophistrie is this he that is the autor of life willeth no sinne which is the cause of death It semeth that you thincke that god willeth no man to die And than al men die besides goddes wil. Which no man I dare saie wil affirme onles he be starcke mad I aduise you therefore to leaue these toies of plaine fransie God giue to you and to me speedie repentance of our faultes opeÌ„ your eyes in this matter as he hath vouch safed to open ours that we maie together agree in the truthe in vnfained humilitee and in christian loue which christian loue yet hath hir sharpnes wil bite the faultes that wil not other wise be amended Wherefore at my handes you shal loke to haue your boiles lauÌ„ched to haue corrosies smarting plaisters laied vpon them vntil thei be cured Goddes spirite directe vs. ¶ Bar. Traheron your frend assone as you can loue the truthe ¶ TO THIS LETTRE OVR countrefaite protestaÌ„t sent me an auÌ„swer stuffed with an huge heape of railing wordes wherevpon I wrote thus vnto him againe IF you be not sore sicke and feoble after so great thronges and after your deliuerance of such a swarme of innumerable railing wordes as it were of young diuels you maie be matched with anie she giaunt in the world in strong and lustie trauail in your faire happie childbed It semeth to me that in the middest of your rauinge traunce you had a litle witte remaining For whereas you despeared victorie in al other thinges you thought you wold ouer comme at the lest in railing scoffing tauÌ„ting And surely you haue brought your swete purpose to passe For I yeld vnto you this noble victorie hold vp my haÌ„des And bicause you haue a meruailous greedie huÌ„ger a thirst vnquencheable for vaine glorie you shal haue this praise at my haÌ„des also that you ar the the ioliest scold and the greatest railer that euer I heard or shal eare I thinke But shal I not thincke that you wold sporte your selfe in plaie refresh your forworen witte with a preatie pleasant frantike imagination whaÌ„ you wrote in the beginniÌ„g of your lustie lettre after that you had powred out at one belche more than halfe a dousen malitious railing wordes that you were taught by S. Pet. not to rendre rebuke for rebuke Thought you it so good a thinge to take a while a litle paâ—time in your ioieous fransie that you passed not how longe men shuld lawgh at your mad behauior afterwarde But if I shuld medle with al your strauÌ„ge prankes with al your new follies I shuld shew my selfe litle lesse fond than you ar I wil therefore pike out here and there that I thincke maie combre a simple reader Otherwise to saie the truth al your gaie stuffe is such as iâ— might be better despised than aunswered In regard of the vnlerned and to shew you your foule fete while you glorie in your pâ—cockes fethers I must do some what against myn awne iudgemeÌ„t stoupe so to hougâ— your hammes behinde that you shal be seeâ— to halte in this matter Bicause I said thaâ— you wrested S. Au. not oÌ„ly violently but also with some losse of a good conscience you permitte to your selfe to affirme that plaie Antichristes parte so proudly to presume to haue a place in maÌ„nes conscience But if I plaie Antichristes parte in iudging your conscience by the manifest frutes thereof whose parte plaie you whan in your writinge you iudge so often that to be in my herte whereof you neuer saw frute nor sparke nor anie maner of likelihod I thaÌ„cke god Wel I beleue ere it be long you shal fele whose parte you haue plaied You be verie angrie that I doubted whether you vndrestode S. Aug. wordes and you wold haue me to impute the faulte of your traÌ„slation to want of diligent examination For you had leuer al othet faultes shuld be found in you than lacke of lerning Wel I am coÌ„tente for this once that you shal wipe awaie one faulte with another and that men shal rather compte you rashe to runne blind fold for hast thaÌ„ not to vndrestaÌ„d so easie latine wordes But you be so good a man than you wil teach me my grammer to For you saie I englissh impleret he fulfilled For thorough hast to teach you sticke not to make a lie For this is my translation These be the great worckes of god c. that he fulfilled c. Where I make impleret the subiunctiue mode and not the indicatiue mode as you ether shamelesly or vnlernedly affirme You englisse the word impleret might fulfille so might I to if I wold haue shewed my selfe as ignorant as you ar For might fulfil maketh the sentence doubteful For god might fulfille his wil though he did not fulfille his wil. But S. Aug. ment not to leaue the sentence in suspense that god might fulfil his wil did not but he ment to teach cerrainly that he did fulfille his wil. And thus by turniÌ„g the subiuÌ„ctiue mode in to the potential you haue takeÌ„ great paines to shew your selfe as ignorant in grammer as you did before and do afterward in logike Where I said that S. Aug. meaneth that Adam did that god wold not in it selfe and for it selfe bicause you can not confute it you wold auoide it with a meruailous preatie shift For you aunswrr that if it might be permitted to you so to wrest euerie autor you wold haue none against you that I affirme myn vndrestanding only vpon a lordly autorite Howbeit if you haue leasure to be at home a litle while you shal vndrestand that I affirme not my saiynge vpon myne awne autoritee but vpoÌ„ a good ground For if you denie that or the like to be S. Au. meaning you shal make him to speak not opposita coÌ„traria as you vnaduisedly powre out your wordes at auenture but plaine coÌ„tradictorie seÌ„teÌ„ces to fighte against him selfe But now at the last you shew an high point of wit and lerninge For where I proued that it was S. Augustines minde that AdaÌ„ sinned by goddes wil and ordinaÌ„ce out of these his wordes No thinge is don c. and out of the other sentences alleged before you saie that none of those places proue the matter For saie you al those places speake of goddes prouidence whereby al thinges haue their being and ar gouerned If al thinges be gouerned by goddes prouidence as you confesse than sinful actes ar gouerned by his prouidence also comme not to passe besides his wil and ordinance And what a preatie argument of yours is this sinne is a deprauation of nature and the absence of righteousnes ergo it coÌ„meth not to passe by the ordinance of god But I weene that the Iues committed in procuryng of