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nature_n bread_n remain_v substance_n 8,998 5 9.2009 5 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A06697 A profitable dialogue for a peruerted papist. Or a little labour of a lay men tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist: namely, by laying open vnto him his ovvne errour, in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre. Composed in dialogue maner, as it were betweene a simple lay man, and certayne graue diuines, and published onely for the benefit of the lay Papist. VVritten by R.M. gent. and student in Diuinity. R. M., student in divinity. 1609 (1609) STC 17149; ESTC S103258 25,816 46

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to_o he_o likewise_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n thou_o seem_v thereby_o to_o contradict_v thy_o former_a speech_n here_o utter_v touch_v the_o same_o thing_n declare_v unto_o we_o therefore_o the_o cause_n why_o thou_o do_v write_v after_o that_o manner_n aug._n my_o son_n if_o sacrament_n boniface_n sacrament_n in_o his_o 23._o epistle_n to_o boniface_n have_v not_o some_o similitude_n o●_n likeness_n of_o these_o thing_n whereof_o they_o be_v sacrament_n they_o shall_v not_o be_v sacrament_n at_o all_o and_o from_o this_o similitude_n most_o common_o they_o receyve_v the_o name_n also_o of_o the_o same_o thing_n so_o that_o after_o a_o certain_a manner_n the_o sacrament_n of_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n be_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n the_o sacrament_n of_o the_o blood_n of_o christ_n be_v the_o blood_n of_o christ_n etc._n etc._n and_o therefore_o as_o i_o say_v before_o ●o_o before_o pag●_n 18._o at_o the_o letter_n ●o_o our_o lord_n doubt_v not_o to_o say_v this_o be_v my_o body_n when_o he_o give_v the_o sign_n or_o sacrament_n of_o his_o body_n etc._n etc._n lay._n undoubted_o thou_o have_v lay_v open_a this_o matter_n also_o very_a plain_n for_o indeed_o after_o a_o certain_a manner_n both_o christ_n carry_v himself_o in_o his_o own_o hand_n and_o also_o judas_n do_v eat_v and_o drink_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o our_o lord_n but_o do_v thou_o allow_v it_o lawful_a for_o any_o man_n to_o follow_v the_o literal_a sense_n in_o a_o contrary_a respect_n that_o be_v with_o a_o carnal_a servitude_n to_o take_v the_o sign_n for_o the_o thing_n signify_v by_o they_o and_o so_o to_o reverence_v the_o sacrament_n as_o the_o thing_n itself_o aug._n my_o son_n the_o lord_n himself_o 9_o himself_o in_o his_o ●_o book_n of_o christian_a doctrine_n chap._n 9_o and_o the_o apostolical_a discipline_n have_v deliver_v some_o few_o sign_n for_o many_o and_o the_o same_o most_o easy_a to_o be_v do_v and_o most_o reverend_a to_o be_v understand_v and_o most_o pure_a in_o observation_n as_o be_v the_o sacrament_n of_o baptism_n and_o the_o celebration_n of_o the_o body_n &_o blood_n of_o our_o lord_n which_o thing_n every_o one_o be_v instruct_v when_o he_o receyve_v acknowledge_v to_o what_o they_o be_v refer_v that_o he_o reverence_v they_o not_o with_o a_o carnal_a servitude_n but_o rather_o with_o a_o spiritual_a liberty_n etc._n etc._n but_o as_o to_o follow_v the_o letter_n and_o to_o take_v the_o sign_n for_o the_o thing_n which_o be_v signify_v by_o they_o come_v of_o servile_a infirmity_n so_o likewise_o to_o interpret_v the_o sign_n unprofitable_a proceed_v from_o the_o evil_a of_o wander_a error_n etc._n etc._n lay._n these_o last_o word_n of_o thou_o most_o reverend_a father_n be_v invincible_a against_o the_o doctrine_n herein_o of_o our_o romish_a adversaries_n for_o if_o hereafter_o they_o shall_v boast_v that_o thou_o do_v agree_v with_o their_o transubstantiation_n &_o carnal_a aderation_n in_o the_o mass_n we_o will_v then_o demand_v of_o they_o what_o other_o thing_n it_o be_v to_o follow_v the_o letter_n &_o to_o take_v the_o sign_n for_o the_o thing_n signify_v and_o so_o to_o reverence_v they_o with_o a_o carnal_a servitude_n but_o the_o selfsame_o carnal_a doctrine_n of_o transubstantiation_n and_o therefore_o we_o will_v now_o rest_v full_o satisfy_v with_o these_o thy_o former_a speech_n as_o be_v from_o thou_o a_o sufficient_a witness_n herein_o against_o they_o and_o the_o better_a to_o approve_v this_o thy_o doctrine_n to_o be_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n above_o a_o thousand_o year_n since_o we_o will_v join_v here_o with_o thou_o a_o witness_n or_o two_o more_o from_o antiquity_n that_o by_o the_o mouth_n of_o two_o or_o three_o witness_n 1._o witness_n 2._o cor._n 13._o 1._o the_o truth_n may_v be_v confirm_v speak_v divine_a hierome_n what_o be_v thy_o true_a opinion_n touch_v this_o matter_n now_o in_o controversy_n about_o the_o mystery_n or_o sacrament_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o our_o lord_n speak_v brief_o learned_a father_n yet_o let_v it_o be_v so_o effectual_a that_o thy_o word_n may_v plain_o declare_v thy_o meaning_n hierome_n my_o son_n psalm_n son_n upon_o the_o 147._o psalm_n i_o think_v the_o gospel_n the_o body_n of_o jesus_n etc._n etc._n and_o where_o he_o say_v he_o which_o shall_v not_o eat_v my_o flesh_n and_o drink_v my_o blood_n etc._n etc._n 5●_n etc._n john_n 6._o 5●_n although_o it_o may_v be_v understand_v in_o the_o mystery_n yet_o more_o true_o the_o word_n of_o the_o scripture_n be_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n the_o doctrine_n be_v divine_a hierom_n divine_a look_v the_o 26._o homily_n of_o s._n aug._n and_o against_o maximil_n chap._n 22._o and_o note_v how_o he_o do_v agree_v with_o this_o of_o ●_o hierom_n if_o at_o any_o time_n we_o go_v to_o the_o mystery_n he_o which_o be_v faithful_a understand_v it_o if_o he_o fall_v into_o a_o spot_n he_o be_v in_o danger_n if_o at_o any_o time_n we_o hear_v the_o word_n of_o god_n both_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o the_o flesh_n of_o christ_n and_o his_o blood_n be_v pour_v into_o our_o ear_n and_o we_o think_v a_o other_o thing_n to_o what_o great_a danger_n we_o run_v into_o etc._n etc._n lay._n very_o thou_o have_v here_o according_a to_o our_o desire_n brief_o speak_v to_o the_o purpose_n indeed_o and_o it_o may_v well_o suffice_v for_o a_o testimony_n from_o thou_o against_o that_o strange_a doctrine_n of_o transubstantiation_n for_o according_a thereunto_o we_o know_v not_o how_o the_o holy_a scripture_n can_v be_v so_o true_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n as_o the_o holy_a mystery_n and_o therefore_o because_o yea_o or_o nay_o be_v a_o sufficient_a answer_n we_o will_v content_v ourselves_o only_o with_o this_o thy_o brief_a affirmation_n herein_o and_o so_o proceed_v to_o the_o three_o witness_n speak_v divine_a theodoret_n what_o say_v thou_o touch_v the_o sacrament_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o our_o lord_n theodoret._n my_o son_n dialogue_n son_n all_o this_o from_o theo._n be_v to_o be_v find_v in_o his_o 1._o and_o 2._o dialogue_n thou_o know_v that_o god_n call_v his_o body_n bread_n 51._o bread_n john_n 6._o 51._o lay._n i_o know_v it_o theodoret._n moreover_o in_o another_o place_n he_o name_v wheat_n flesh_n 〈…〉_o flesh_n math._n 〈…〉_o lay._n i_o know_v this_o to_o be_v true_a also_o theo._n in_o the_o tradition_n of_o mystery_n he_o call_v bread_n his_o body_n and_o that_o which_o pour_v and_o commix_v in_o the_o cup_n blood_n lay._n so_o he_o do_v call_v these_o thing_n indeed_o but_o do_v he_o right_o call_v they_o so_o as_o be_v his_o natural_a body_n and_o blood_n or_o do_v he_o but_o change_v the_o name_n theo._n my_o son_n that_o which_o be_v a_o body_n according_a to_o nature_n shall_v right_o be_v call_v a_o body_n and_o likewise_o blood_n etc._n etc._n but_o our_o saviour_n change_v the_o name_n very_o and_o impose_v to_o the_o body_n that_o name_n which_o right_o belong_v to_o the_o sign_n and_o symbol_n but_o to_o the_o sign_n he_o impose_v that_o name_n which_o belong_v to_o the_o body_n so_o when_o he_o have_v name_v himself_o a_o vine_n he_o call_v that_o blood_n which_o be_v the_o sign_n lay._n but_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n still_o remain_v what_o be_v the_o cause_n of_o the_o alteration_n of_o the_o name_n theo._n to_o those_o that_o be_v admit_v to_o the_o divine_a mysterye_n the_o institution_n be_v manifest_a for_o he_o will_v not_o have_v they_o which_o be_v partaker_n of_o the_o divine_a mystery_n to_o regard_v the_o nature_n of_o those_o thing_n which_o be_v see_v but_o by_o the_o change_n of_o the_o name_n to_o believe_v the_o alteration_n which_o be_v make_v by_o grace_n for_o he_o which_o name_v that_o wheat_n and_o bread_n which_o by_o nature_n be_v a_o body_n and_o again_o name_v himself_o a_o vine_n he_o have_v honour_v the_o symbol_n and_o sign_n which_o be_v see_v with_o the_o name_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n not_o very_o change_v nature_n but_o add_v grace_n to_o nature_n etc._n etc._n lay._n what_o say_v thou_o then_o to_o those_o heretic_n which_o hold_v that_o as_o those_o sign_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o our_o lord_n be_v one_o kind_n of_o thing_n before_o the_o invecation_n of_o the_o priest_n or_o minister_n and_o after_o be_v change_v and_o make_v other_o thing_n even_o so_o the_o body_n of_o our_o lord_n also_o after_o the_o resurrection_n be_v change_v into_o the_o divine_a substance_n theo._n my_o son_n dialoges_o son_n in_o his_o ●…_n dialoges_o they_o be_v take_v in_o their_o own_o snare_n for_o neither_o do_v the_o mystical_a sign_n depart_v from_o their_o own_o nature_n after_o sanctification_n but_o they_o remain_v in_o the_o former_a substance_n and_o figure_n and_o
form_n etc._n etc._n compare_v the_o sign_n with_o the_o truth_n &_o thou_o shall_v understand_v the_o similitude_n for_o the_o figure_n ought_v to_o be_v like_o the_o truth_n for_o true_o that_o body_n have_v the_o first_o form_n and_o figure_n and_o circumscription_n and_o that_o i_o may_v say_v at_o once_o the_o substance_n of_o a_o body_n but_o it_o be_v make_v immortal_a after_o the_o resurrection_n etc._n etc._n lay._n most_o true_a it_o be_v grave_a father_n christ_n have_v still_o the_o true_a substance_n of_o a_o body_n and_o therefore_o the_o sign_n and_o the_o thing_n signify_v be_v alike_o those_o heretic_n whosoever_o they_o be_v that_o seem_v to_o prove_v the_o form_n of_o bread_n in_o the_o sacrament_n to_o be_v there_o without_o the_o substance_n of_o bread_n do_v thereby_o seem_v to_o prove_v also_o christ_n to_o a_o have_v a_o fantastical_a body_n that_o be_v a_o body_n in_o show_n without_o the_o substance_n of_o a_o body_n but_o thou_o do_v hear_v most_o plain_o confute_v that_o palpable_a absurdity_n &_o therein_o thou_o be_v agreeable_a to_o the_o true_a doctrine_n of_o the_o primitive_a church_n for_o what_o christian_n live_v a_o thousand_o year_n since_o or_o upward_o do_v ever_o affirm_v such_o a_o real_a presence_n in_o the_o sacrament_n that_o thereby_o christ_n god_n and_o man_n be_v to_o be_v swallow_v into_o the_o body_n of_o many_o damn_a creature_n we_o find_v many_o proof_n from_o antiquity_n to_o the_o contrary_a as_o partly_o have_v be_v note_v already_o and_o yet_o for_o more_o witness_n thereof_o we_o note_v s._n ambrose_n also_o who_o say_v plain_o touch_v this_o sacred_a bread_n even_o christ_n himself_o that_o it_o be_v not_o bread_n which_o go_v into_o the_o body_n 4._o body_n in_o his_o ●_o book_n of_o sacrament_n chap._n 4._o but_o the_o bread_n of_o eternal_a life_n which_o strengthen_v the_o substance_n of_o our_o soul_n etc._n etc._n he_o say_v not_o as_o some_o perverse_o misconstrue_v he_o non_fw-la transi●e_n in_o corpus_fw-la per_fw-la nutritionem_fw-la chap._n nutritionem_fw-la bellarm._n upon_o the_o eucharist_n the_o 2._o book_n &_o 14._o chap._n it_o pass_v not_o through_o the_o body_n by_o nourishment_n but_o non_fw-la vadit_fw-la in_o corpus_fw-la it_o go_v not_o into_o the_o body_n etc._n etc._n who_o then_o can_v mistake_v he_o here_o but_o he_o that_o wilful_o make_v himself_o ignorant_a even_o he_o which_o by_o such_o undirect_a deal_n pervert_v thy_o word_n also_o say_v 27._o say_v bellarm._n in_o the_o same_o book_n chap._n 27._o where_o thou_o do_v affirm_v the_o bread_n and_o wine_n to_o remain_v after_o sanctification_n both_o in_o substance_n nature_n figure_n and_o form_n as_o they_o be_v before_o thou_o do_v thereby_o mean_a only_o the_o sensible_a accident_n and_o visible_a form_n do_v so_o remain_v but_o the_o substance_n to_o be_v change_v but_o if_o such_o weak_a defend_n of_o error_n be_v allow_v for_o good_a and_o lawful_a in_o vain_a than_o it_o be_v to_o bring_v any_o testimony_n from_o antiquity_n against_o heretic_n but_o we_o hope_v that_o such_o perverse_a answer_n from_o the_o perverter_n may_v prove_v in_o good_a time_n a_o good_a motive_n for_o the_o pervert_v to_o look_v about_o he_o betimes_o and_o not_o both_o to_o live_v and_o die_v a_o child_n in_o understanding_n for_o ignorance_n can_v excuse_v those_o that_o wilful_o refuse_v to_o walk_v by_o the_o light_n of_o holy_a scripture_n the_o word_n of_o god_n be_v a_o lantern_n unto_o my_o foot_n and_o a_o light_n unto_o my_o path_n say_v the_o prophet_n david_n 119._o david_n psalm_n 119._o it_o be_v as_o a_o light_n shine_v in_o a_o dark_a place_n say_v s._n peter_n 1._o peter_n 2._o pet._n 1._o by_o which_o we_o be_v give_v to_o understand_v that_o as_o the_o sun_n give_v light_a to_o the_o corporal_a eye_n so_o do_v the_o holy_a scripture_n give_v light_n to_o the_o spiritual_a eye_n whereupon_o it_o follow_v that_o if_o neither_o our_o adversaries_n nor_o ourselves_o will_v wilful_o become_v blind_a and_o then_o trust_v to_o the_o lead_n of_o other_o we_o shall_v soon_o all_o agree_v in_o one_o outward_a profession_n for_o who_o be_v he_o that_o can_v believe_v contrary_a to_o that_o which_o he_o séee_v or_o where_o be_v that_o spiritual_a man_n so_o contentious_a as_o not_o to_o allow_v those_o tradition_n and_o custom_n of_o the_o church_n which_o be_v not_o contrary_a to_o the_o express_a word_n of_o god_n we_o grant_v from_o the_o sacrament_n according_a to_o that_o truth_n which_o we_o find_v in_o holy_a scripture_n 63._o scripture_n john_n 6._o 63._o the_o true_a eat_n &_o drink_v of_o the_o flesh_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n spiritual_o we_o say_v word_n for_o word_n as_o saint_n basil_n say_v above_o a_o thousand_o year_n since_o epistle_n since_o in_o his_o 141._o epistle_n we_o eat_v his_o flesh_n and_o drink_v his_o blood_n be_v make_v partaker_n of_o he_o by_o incarnation_n and_o sensible_a life_n of_o the_o word_n and_o wisdom_n for_o he_o call_v all_o his_o mystical_a conversation_n in_o the_o flesh_n flesh_n and_o blood_n and_o make_v manifest_v that_o doctrine_n which_o depend_v of_o his_o life_n actual_a natural_a and_o divine_a by_o which_o the_o soul_n be_v nourish_v exercise_v and_o train_v up_o to_o the_o contemplation_n of_o heavenly_a thing_n etc._n etc._n but_o we_o deny_v such_o a_o gross_a eat_n and_o drink_v therein_o that_o thereby_o both_o the_o righteous_a and_o the_o unrighteous_a be_v make_v partaker_n of_o christ_n which_o doctrine_n be_v most_o manifest_a against_o the_o sacred_a scripture_n 21._o scripture_n 1._o cor._n 10._o 21._o we_o deny_v also_o such_o a_o gross_a eat_n &_o drink_v therein_o that_o thereby_o lay_v people_n must_v not_o communicate_v with_o the_o bless_a cup_n of_o our_o lord_n fear_v lest_o they_o shall_v shed_v his_o prectous_a blood_n upon_o their_o garment_n or_o lest_o by_o the_o weakness_n of_o their_o stomach_n they_o shall_v bring_v up_o again_o their_o creator_n by_o belching_n and_o vomiting_n which_o absurdity_n the_o church_n have_v long_o since_o confute_v as_o witness_v s._n aug._n 13._o aug._n against_o faustus_n the_o 20_o book_n and_o chap._n 13._o for_o indeed_o according_a to_o the_o doctrine_n of_o her_o head_n christ_n jesus_n so_o do_v the_o true_a church_n teach_v always_o but_o never_o do_v the_o true_a church_n teach_v that_o our_o saviour_n christ_n have_v any_o real_a be_v in_o the_o body_n of_o a_o wicked_a creature_n for_o christ_n himself_o be_v most_o plain_a against_o that_o vain_a doctrine_n and_o brief_o to_o prove_v that_o to_o be_v true_a we_o will_v now_o set_v aside_o all_o other_o witness_n and_o proof_n whatsoever_o and_o humble_o beseech_v the_o author_n of_o this_o bless_a sacrament_n even_o jesus_n christ_n himself_o to_o resolve_v we_o herein_o speak_v holy_a lamb_n of_o god_n thou_o that_o be_v the_o only_a saviour_n of_o the_o world_n &_o speak_v so_o we_o most_o humble_o beseech_v thou_o that_o thy_o word_n herein_o may_v prove_v a_o sweet_a savour_n of_o life_n to_o the_o small_a remnant_n of_o thy_o holy_a church_n in_o this_o corrupt_a age_n teach_v we_o sweet_a lord_n whether_o any_o can_v have_v true_a life_n without_o eat_v and_o drink_v that_o bless_a flesh_n and_o blood_n of_o thou_o and_o also_o whether_o any_o can_v miss_v of_o that_o true_a life_n eat_v and_o drink_v the_o same_o bless_a food_n christ_n my_o son_n 36._o son_n john_n 6._o 48._o to_o 36._o i_o be_o that_o bread_n of_o life_n your_o father_n do_v eat_v manna_n in_o the_o wilderness_n and_o be_v dead_a this_o be_v that_o bread_n which_o come_v down_o from_o heaven_n that_o he_o which_o eat_v of_o it_o shall_v not_o die_v i_o be_o that_o live_a bread_n which_o come_v down_o from_o heaven_n if_o any_o man_n eat_v of_o this_o bread_n he_o shall_v live_v for_o ever_o and_o the_o bread_n that_o i_o will_v give_v be_v my_o flesh_n which_o i_o will_v give_v for_o the_o life_n of_o the_o world_n etc._n etc._n very_o very_o i_o say_v unto_o you_o except_o you_o eat_v the_o flesh_n of_o the_o son_n of_o man_n and_o drink_v his_o blood_n you_o have_v no_o life_n in_o you_o whosoever_o eat_v my_o flesh_n and_o drink_v my_o blood_n have_v eternal_a life_n and_o i_o will_v raise_v he_o up_o at_o the_o last_o day_n for_o my_o flesh_n be_v meat_n indeed_o and_o my_o blood_n be_v drink_v indeed_o lay._n my_o lord_n and_o god_n these_o word_n of_o thou_o be_v profound_a and_o to_o the_o spiritual_a man_n spirit_n and_o life_n although_o to_o the_o carnal_a man_n far_o otherwise_o for_o notwithstanding_o thou_o have_v command_v we_o all_o not_o to_o add_v any_o thing_n to_o thy_o sacred_a word_n 18._o word_n deut._n 〈◊〉_d 2_o and_o 12._o 32._o 〈◊〉_d 22._o 18._o yet_o these_o carnall-minded_n man_n can_v not_o understand_v these_o thy_o comfortable_a speech_n