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A40488 A friendly debate between Dr. Kingsman, a dissatisfied clergy-man, and Gratianus Trimmer, a neighbour minister concerning the late thanksgiving-day, the Prince's desent [sic] into England, the nobility and gentries joining with him, the acts of the honourable convention, the nature of our English government, the secret league with France, the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, &c. : with some considerations on Bishop Sanderson and Dr. Falkner about monarchy, oaths, &c. ... / by a minister of the Church of England. Kingsman, Dr.; Minister of the Church of England.; Trimmer, Gratianus. 1689 (1689) Wing F2218; ESTC R18348 69,303 83

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Morning And now Doctor I come to the end of what at our first meeting we fell upon As I intended by the help of God to observe the Thanksgiving Febr. 14. so I have And cannot Express the Sense I have of the many Causes of Thanksgiving Behold and wonder at what God hath wrought Salvation belongeth unto the Lord his Blessing is upon his People The Lord hath answered before we called Isa 65.24 Who hath heard such a thing who hath seen such a thing Shall the Earth be made to bring forth in one day or shall a Nation be born at Once for as soon as Zion travelled she brought forth Children Isa 66.8 There are three admirable Providences to be told our Children that the Generations to come may praise the Lord. 1. The Greatness of our Deliverance from the Sins the Curse the Plague of Popery the deliverance of our Bodies from the Sword of our Wives and Virgins from unnatural beastliness of Papists who put Nature to shame As in Savoy 1686. and yet their Nature cannot blush 2. The Deliverance without Blood. 3. The Suddainess of it Providence dispatched his marvellous Work. 4. The immediateness of God's hand 2. After a Deliverance we are come to a Settlement the most hopeful this Nation ever saw in many respects it exceeds all that ever went before it as the Deliverance also doth 3. That God should make way for it by taking away the Spirit of the late King and coveying him away without reproach to our Religion 4. The Lord wonderfully united the Spirit of the Nation in the choice of Representatives and united their Counsels without tedious distracting Debates to fill the Throne to clear and recover their own despised and almost extinguished Rights and to do Right to our most Gracious King and Queen and the Royal Line upon better terms than they were in before 5. God hath given a King and Queen of our own Religion and that the true rarely set off with an ilustrious Exemplariness Zeal and Moderation 6. I rejoice for the joy of the persecuted desolated Protestant Churches abroad and strength added to the Protestant Princes 7. I rejoice for the Consolation which this wonderful Providence hath brought to Protestants abroad that have suffered Persecution and that were in danger to be swallowed up and that the Prosperity and Peace of England is like to add Courage and Strength to Protestant Princes and States every-where 8. I rejoice that Popery is put to shame and confusion in our Land. I wish the Simple and Deluded may see the Hand of God which is lifted up and not love Darkness rather than Light. The Lord hath broken the Head of Popish Counsels disclosed their Secrets and made them fall in their own Devices 9. I hope the Lord will finish his work and having brought to the Birth will also bring forth Shall I cause to bring forth and shut the Womb saith the Lord. Isa 66.9 10. I hope to see Protestants united more in the profession of Faith Love Worship Communion and Peace that there be no Colour from Laws to scatter the Flocks put Lights under Bushels and make them a Prey to the worst of Men. 11. I hope to see with admiration Behold a King shall reign in Righteousness and Princes shall rule in Judgment that the Work of Righteousness shall be Peace and the Effect of Righteousness Quietness and Assurance for ever Isa 32.1 17 c. 12. I hope Our gracious King Queen and wise Parliament who are taking off Arbitrary Yokes apace will take off another Yoke of Arbitrariness in Ecclesiastical Courts I do not winch because I am gall'd but rejoice because I am delivered and preserved There is a great sense among us of the Arbitrariness of Canonical Obedience which was extended even to Votes for Parliament-Men and answering Questions as in the High Commission proceeding upon Arbitrary Canons not confirmed by the King's Proclamation Arbitrary Articles of Visitation Arbitrary Oaths exacted of Church-wardens and their Legal Duties never that I could hear of explained unto them And calling for Subscriptions to Addresses and Abhorrences to serve the Designs of Papists against us and deceive the King with Promises 13. I rejoice that I am in my place to serve God out of which I was preparing my self to be thrown out for not reading the King's Declaration as it was a means to advance Popery and not out of a grudg at the Indulgence of Protestants which had been the means of our ruin if God had not given him an unexpected Diversion to look to his own Kingdom and found him other Work. Every day will I praise the Lord and call upon mine own Soul to bless the Lord and not to forget all his Benefits and I will by the Grace of God stir up others with an O that Men would praise the Lord c. And as I have since I was capable kept the 5th of November so now while I can upon another Reason the most seasonable peaceable happy entrance of our now more Illustrious that the then Illustrious Prince of Orange as a Day which the Lord hath made My Joys may be grievous to you which I am sorry for and therefore I will pray that we may not fail as Hezekiah did to return thanks according to the Mercy received There are thousands and ten thousands of Mercies and Blessings in this marvellous Deliverance and Settlement of the Kingdom nothing can blast this hopeful Spring and silence the singing of Birds but our continuance in Prodigious Profaneness and Debauchery brought in at the very Heels of the joyful Restoration of the King in 1660. If the sense of Mercy doth but run through our Hearts and oblige us to think as well of the Practice of Religion as it is described Tit. 2.11 12 13. and other places as we think ill of Popery all your new Sect of Grumblers can only give us some exercise of our Charity and Moderation you and all your Party under your antiquated and self-deposed King with the hopeful succession of the Prince of Wales and his Brother in the little Belly of the Queen cannot hurt us Therefore Good Doctor grumble not against God our Laws our King and Queen and Parliament the hoped-for settlement of the Church upon the Word of God maintained by unity of Spirit in the Bond of Peace and commended in a Better Act than our last of Uniformity or else we shall go as far back as that Act cast the happiness of this Church and Kingdom For from that day that Act took place it hath been ill with the Church of God and Christianity in England and a private Apartment was made for Popery under the Church Walls K. Are you a Conformist and say so T. You have called us Trimmers and our Conformity hath been in a great part from the Principle of Passive Obedience and Peace and Love to Souls resolving to go as far with you as we could with a good Conscience And since our
and Renowned Fleta hath left as his Judgment and Law l. 1. c. 17. S. 2 3. Nec à Regnando dicitur sed a benè regendo nomen assumitur Rex verò dum benè regit Tyrannus dum populum suâ violatâ apprimitur dominatione Ad hoc namque electus est ut justitiam pariter Vniversis sibi subditis faciat exhibere c. And Sect. 14. Ad haec enim Creatus est Rex Electus ut justiciam faciat Vniversis c. Florentius Wigorniensis that old Historian relates That Edgar the First who united England into one Kingdom was Electus ab omni Anglorum Populo of all the People of England Edit 4º p. 355. as he was before chosen of the Mercians and Northumbrians who deserted King Edwin because he acted foolishly in the Government committed to him p. 354. After the decease of Edgar there arose a great Dissention among the chief Men of the Kingdom about the Election of a King for some Elected Edward his Son and others Elected his Brother Ethelred p. 361. And to save the labour of looking further you may see how the Succession went see in a brief History of the Succession printed the other Day 3. Government grew by degrees into Kingdoms and began in Families encreased into Vicinities Towns Cities Common-Wealths and Kingdoms And that Form of Government was best which best agreed with the People and was most conducive to the Publick Benefit Hear what the Admired and Learned Mr. Hooker thought Book I. of Eccles Policy p. 27 29. The Case of Man's Nature standing as it doth some kind of Regiment the Law of Nature doth require yet the Kinds thereof being many Nature tieth not to any One but leaveth the Choice as a thing Arbitrary This is contrary to them that set up Monarchy and Absolute too upon the Foundation of the Law of Nature 4. As to the derided Contract and Consent of the People where and by whom and abundance of Questions about it I conceive the words of the same Learned Hooker may ballance those of Bishop Saunderson That which we spake before concerning the Power of Government must be here applied to the Power of making Laws to command whole politick Societies of Men belongeth so properly unto the same intire Societies of Men that for any Prince or Potentate of what kind soever upon Earth to exercise the same of himself and not either by express Commission immediately and personally received from God or else by Authority derived at first from their Consent upon whose Persons they impose Laws it is no better than meer Tyranny Laws they are not therefore which publick Approbation hath not made so But Approbation not only they give who personally declare their Consent by Voice Sign or Act but also when others do it in their Names by Right at least originally derived from them As in Parliaments Councils and the like Assemblies B. 1. p. 28. The many of Bishop Saunderson's Questions may easily be answered by destroying his Supposition That there was a great number of People as big suppose as a Kingdom without Government and that these all must in all respects be equal or else they may be injured by some who contract and all present to chuse their Governor and give him Power to rule according to contract * See the same Supposition handsomly flourish'd by Dr. Fern. Consc satisfied p. 9. It is no Matter by whom or when the first Contract was made we are sure it was by the Light of Nature or Reason in the most convenient way Let us see how it is now and hath been of a long time Whereas we read in our Histories that sometimes the Nobles sometimes Nobles and Prelats sometimes the Heads of the Commons agreed with their King upon Conditions to govern But that is the most perfect way which is by the three Estates met in Parliament or Convention 5. That there were and are Contracts between the Kings of England and the People or the Community made by their Representatives is not void of sufficient Proof Take a few The People of England are called the King's Liege People because they are obliged to him And the King is also called the Liege King for the same Reason because he is bound by Contract or Covenant to them Dicuntin utrique ligii Princeps nempe ligius Dominus subdits verb Populus ligius homines ligii Ligia foedus Eigii igitus liges idem sunt quod ligati Spelm. Gloss Many Instances might be produced of Contracts between our Ancient Kings and the People of England Two shall suffice When Suanus tyrannized over the Land he exacted a huge Tribute of St. Edmunds-Bury threatned to burn it if he had it not paid him and giving out opprobious Language against that St. Edmund at Gainsburrough where he held a General Plea died there in great Agony and Fear upon the appearance of St. Edmund coming against him The Danish Fleet chose his Son Canutus to be King. At majores Natu totius Angliae The Elders or Eldermen of all England sent Messengers with one consent to Ethelred King of England then in Normandy saying That they loved and would love none more than Him their natural Lord If he would more rightly govern or more mildly handle them than he had before Which when he heard he directed his Son Edward with Embassadors to them and he in most friendly manner saluted the Greater and the Lesser of his Nation Promising That he would be to them a mild and devoted Lord that he would consent to their Will in all Things acquiesce in their Counsels that he would pardon what soever was reproachfully and disgracefully said of him or his or done contrary to him and his s● omnes unanimiter c. if all would unanimously and without treachery agree to receive him into the Kingdom All of them did answer Courteously or freely to these things Afterwards a full Accord or Friendship is confirmed on both sides Verbis Pacto both by Words and Contract Florentius Wigerniensis p. 381. The other Instance I give out of the same Historian is omni Exceptione major it is of William the first commonly called the Conqueror William came to London with his whole Army ut ibi in Regem sublimaretur that he might be advanced to be King and was Consecrated in an honourable manner Promising first as Aldred the Archbishop of York required or exacted of him before the Altar of St. Peter by Oath before the Clergy and People That he would defend the Holy Churches of God and their Rectors and govern all the People subject to Him justly and with Regal Care and Providence Appoint or ordain and hold Right Law and forbid Rapines and unjust Judgments utterly or altogether p. 431. But that which goes beyond all particular Instances is the Coronation Oath K. But concerning the Coronation Oath I am of the Opinion of Rev. Dr. Falkner Christian Loyalty B. 2. c. 2. p. 423. Let us