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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
nation_n	england_n	law_n	statute_n	1,497	5	9.0809	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56065	The propositions of the Roman Catholicks of Ireland as also the answer of the agents for the Protestants of Ireland made to the said propositions, and their petitions and propositions to His Majesty, and His Majesties answer to the propositions of the said Roman Catholicks, and the answer of James, Marquesse of Ormond, His Majesties Commissioner for the treatie and concluding of a peace in the kingdome of Ireland, to the said propositions.	Confederate Catholics.; Ormonde, James Butler, Duke of, 1610-1688.	1644 (1644)	Wing P3800; ESTC R36692	41,588	78

the Masse or Sermon of any deriving power from thence and keep him in his house he is punishable as an ayder and abbettor within the words of the statute he knowing that whereof he cannot be ignorant by the rules of his profession As for the second branch of the said proposition let any man iudge whether it be reason sufficient of it selfe that the professors of the Roman Catholicke Religion both spirituall and temporall being to a few the Natives and residents of this kingdome should desire a freedome of their Religion and to be freed and exempted from the penalties and pressures aforesaid whereby his Maiesty never received any advantage and have beene the occasion of many inconveniences in the kingdome And it is evident that by this freedome all his Maiesties good subiects aswell Protestants as Catholickes will bee united more then ever before when their condition is equall and neyther partie have occasion to envy or oppresse the other It will not be unworthy of consideration that in reason of state the constitution of his Maiesties three kingdomes as now they stand being duely weighed that this freedome and exemption is most necessarie for his Maiesties service and safetie 2. It is of the essence of Parliaments to be free the contrary was practised here The composition of this Parliament is desired to be of men estated and interested in the kingdome of genuyne and right members and to bee returned from proper places and by right ministers The suspension of the act for this free Parliament cannot preiudice his Maiesty for that nothing is to passe as an act before transmission other then what shall bee agreed upon and expresly mentioned in the Articles of peace 3. It is conceived this pretended Parliament was determined by the death of the Lord Deputy VVandesford most of the estated and right members thereof did not appeare in it since the 7. of August 1641. those who now appeare as members thereof viz. of the Commons-house are for a great part not much interessed and other wholy uninteressed therein and one order therein made to exclude the said Catholicks from the house other orders to their disadvantage were and or might have beene made in the said Commons-house Therefore it is desired that all the proceedings of the said pretended Parliament may be declared voyde and taken of the file 4. When those indictments were found outlawries promulged the said Catholickes are informed and hope to iustifie that those who governed in this kingdome or some of them did plot and practise the totall extirpation of the said Catholicks asmuch as in them lay did encrease the troubles to that end and shute up the gates of his Maiesties mercie against the said catholickes even against those who were undeniably innocent as may appeare by many instances the manner of appointing of Sheriffes who returned the Iurors the persons appointed the Iurors condition affection the infinite numbers of the persons indicted outlawed being never called to answer other circumstances touching or depending of the said Records being so generally destructive to the said Catholicks they cannot otherwise choose then to insist on the taking them of from the file that no such markes of infamy may remayne of Record against them whose ancestors for the space of foure hundred yeares and upwards faithfully served the Crowne 5. This proposition is so just and equall in it selfe that there needeth not any reason or proofe to be urged for it 6. This proposition being yeelded into by the answer except the late Plantations in the County of VVicklow and Iduogh in the county of Kilkenny and excepting the encrease of Rents is referred to what shall bee urged upon the fixt answer 7. In all or most Letters-patents granted of Plantation Lands and some other lands in this kingdome since the making of the said statutes certaine clauses and conditions were inserted in them that no land should be sold or past to any of the meere Irish or of the Irish Nation as the cōdition is in some Patents these clauses doe did nourish division and distinction between his Maiesties subiects the like was never used in England nor in any other kingdome They extend not only to the old Irish but likewise by construction to the old English for he that is borne in Ireland though his parents and all his ancestors were Aliens nay if his parents were Indians or Turks if converted to Christianitie is an Irish-man as fully as if his ancestors were here borne for thousands of yeares and by the Lawes of England as capable of the liberties of a subiect Such markes of distinction being the insteps to trouble and warre are incompatible with peace and quiet 8. The said Roman Catholickes being rendred incapable of any command or trust by the statutes aforesaid may be relieved herein upon removall of the impediments mentioned in the reasons for the first proposition and particular instances shewed for the present yet such were the Character layed upon them here and the representations made of them from hence heretofore into England that they apprehend they suffer thereby in his Majesties opinion of them which they conceive an impediment and stop to many graces and favours they expect and hope to merite from his Majestie In all ages past before the said statutes their ancestors were preferred to places of eminence and trust within their Native countries and since very seldome three presidents since can hardly be instanced The condition of Roman Catholickes in Ireland where there are an hundred Catholickes to one of any other Religion differs much from that of England or Scotland where there is scarce one Catholicke to a thousand of the protestant religion In all the Nations of Christendome the Natives of the place are advanced before others 9. The Court of Wards was begun here a bout the foureteenth yeare of King Iames and never before It hath not the warrant of any Law or statute In England it was erected by act of Parliament The subject is extreamely oppressed thereby by the multitude of informations against all freeholders from the highest to the lowest without any limitation of time the frequent Courts of Escheaters Feodaries the destruction of the Tenures of mesnes Lords by making many Tenures to be In Capite against Law by the sale of the wards from hand to hand as of Horses in a Market by the want of Provision for portions of younger children whereby they perish or take ill courses debts remaine unsatisfied and though by the statute of Merton cap. 5. Vsurie doth not runne upon Infants yet the Collaterall security eyther of men or Land mortgaged are not relieved by that statute The King never received one shilling advantage by this Court ultra reprisas for twenty shillings damage done thereby to his people the vast fortunes of the officers and ministers of the said Court how suddainely raysed on the ruynes of many others his Majesties subjects And let all the wards since the

your Majesties service to be taken into consideration as first with regarde of the statutes made in the present Parliament of England Secondly the necessarie encrease of your revenue decayed by the present rebellion Thirdly the abolishing of the evill custome of the Irish and preservation of Religion Lawes and government there Fourthly the satisfaction of your protestants subjects losses in some measure Fiftly the arrears of your Majesties Army and other debts contracted for that war for preservation of that Kingdome to your Majestie Sixtly the bringing in of more Brittish on the plantations Seventhly the building of some walled Townes in remote and desolate places for the securitie of that kingdome and your good subjects there Eightly the taking of the Natives from their former dependencie on their chiefetaynes who usurped an absolute power on them to the diminution of your Regall power and to the oppression of the inferiour 7. This we conceive concerneth some of the late plantations and no other part of that Kingdome and that the restitution herein mentioned is found to bee of great use especially for the indifferencie of tryalls strength of the government and for trade and trafficke and we humbly conceive that if other plantations shall not proceede for the setling and securing of that Kingdome that no restraint be made of papists purchasing or buying of the protestants out of their former platations where they were prudently planted though now cast out of their estates by the late rebellion unable to plant the same againe for want of meanes and therefore probably upon easy tearmes will part with their estates to the Confederates That those plantations will be destroyed to the great prejudice of your Maiesties service and endangering of the safety of that Kingdome Touching bearing of offices we humbly conceive that their non-conformitie to the lawes and statutes of that Realme is the onely marke of incapacity imposed upon them And wee humbly conceive that they ought not to expect to be more capable there then the English Natives are here in England in like case For Schooles in Ireland there are divers setled in all parts of that Kingdome already by the Lawes and statutes of that Realme And if any person well affected shall erect and endow any more schools there at their owne charges So that the Schoole-masters and schollers may be governed according to the lawes custome and orders of England and the best of free scholes here Wee cannot apprehend any iust exceptions thereunto but touching Vniversities and Innes-of-Court We humbly conceive that this part of the proposition savoureth of some desire to become independent upon England or to make a separation in the Religion and lawes of the kingdome which can never be truly happy but in the good unitie of both in the true protestant religion and in the lawes of England For as for matter of charge such of the Natives as are desirous to breede their sonnes for learning in divinitie can be well content to send them to the Vniversities of Lovain Doway and other places in forayne Kingdomes and for Civill law or Physicke to Padua other places which drawes a great treasure yearely out of your Majesties Dominions but will send few or none of them to Oxford or Cambridge where they might as cheaply be brought up and become as learned Which course we conceive is holden out of their pride and disaffection towards this Kingdome and the true Religion here professed And for the lawes of the land which are for the Common-lawes agreeable to England so for the greatest part of the statutes the Innes of Courts in England are sufficient and the protestants come thither without grudging And it is a meanes to civilize them after the English customes to make them familiar and in love with the language and Nation to preserve law in the puritie when the professors of it shall draw of one originall fountaine and see the manner of the practise of it in the same great Channell where his Majesties Courts of Iustice of England doe flow cleerely Whereas by separations of the Kingdomes in the place of their principall instruction where their foundations in being are to be layd a degenerate corruption in Religion and Iustice may happily be introduced and spred with much more difficultie to be corrected and restrayned afterwards by any discipline to be used in Ireland or punishments there to be inflicted for departing from the true grounds of things that are best preserved in unitie when they grow out of the same roote then if such Vniversities and Innes of Court as are proposed should be granted All which wee humbly submit to your Majesties most pious and prudent Consideration and Iudgement 8. We humbly conceive that the Roman Catholicks Natives in Ireland may have the like offices and places as the Roman Catholickes Natives of England here have and not otherwise Howbeit we conceive that in the generallity they have not deserved somuch by their late rebellion Therefore we see not why they should be endowed with any new or further capacity or priviledges then they have by the Lawes and statutes now in force in that Kingdome 9. Wee know no oppression by reason of the Court of Wards and wee humbly conceive that the Court of wards is of great use for the raysing of your Majesties revenues the preservation of your Maiesties Tennures and chiefly the education of the Gentry in the protestant Religion and civilitie of learning and good manners who otherwise would bee brought up in ignorance barbarisme their estats be ruyned by their kindred and friends and continue their dependance on the chiefe Lords to the great preiudice of your Maiesties service and protestant subiects and there being no colour of exception to your Maiesties iust Title to wardships we know not why the taking away of Court concerning the same should be so pressed unlesse it be to prevent the education of the Lords and Gentry that fall-wards in the protestant religion For that part of this proposition which concernes respit of homage we humbly conceive it reasonable that some way may be setled for this if it stands with your Maiesties good pleasure without preiudice to your Maiesty or your protestant subiects 10. Wee humbly conceive that in the yeare 1641. by the graces which your Majestie then granted to your subjects of Ireland the matter of this proposition was in a faire way regulated by your utter abolishing of blancke proxies limitting Lords present and attending in the Parliament of Ireland that no one of them should be capable of more proxies then two and prescribing the Peeres of that Kingdome not there resident to purchase fitting proportions of land in Ireland within five yeares from the last of Iuly 1641. or else to loose votes till they should make such purchase which purchase by reason of the troubles happening in that Kingdome which have continued for two yeares and a halfe have not peradventure yet beene made And therefore

their oath declared by the statute of 18. Elizab. will not stop or suspend the proceedings of the Court for the great Seale privy seale or his Maiesties letters writs or commandements And your Lordship may please to observe that by long experience it is manifest that since the making of those Lawes being foure-score and odde yeares the penalties or forfeytures in them expressed have not beene so prevalent as to draw them the said Catholickes from the Religion professed by them and their Ancestors and no advantage did in so long a tract of time accrue to the Crowne by those statutes And seeing his Maiesty is content that moderation should be used towards the said Catholickes to what purpose should the said penall lawes be continued in force whereas the continuation thereof can produce no other effect then jealousies and feares in the mindes of the people A free Parliament is propounded and a new Parliament is meaned Reasons against the 2. Answer in this answer to be granted It is true that Parliaments in their Essence ought to be free yet some examples shewing the contrary in this kingdome and a clause in the answer viz. That the Parliament shall be dissolved upon an attempt onely of propounding any other matter then shall be agreed upon by the Articles of Peace which attempt may bee purposely done by some averse to peace to dissolve a Parliament and the taking away of the said clause attempt doth induce the said Catholickes to supplicate the inserting of a free Parliament And that all the acts to be concluded on by the treaty may not be transmitted into England in regarde the substance of that which will bee passed as acts without transmission are to be inserted in the articles of peace which none other act of Parliament is to passe upon the suspension of Poynings act without transmission according to the usuall manner wherefore the said suspension can bring no manner of prejudice upon his Majestie or the publicke service and that by the granting thereof the peoples mindes will be much quieted The said Catholicks do therfore humbly desire that the said act be suspended as is by them propounded If the now pretended Parliament or eyther of the houses of Parliament made any Orders or Ordinances to the prejudice of the said Reasons against the 3. Answer Catholicks the same Parliament may vacate them take them off the file And it is not to be presumed that any member of Parliament is so litle affected to the peace or quiet of the kingdome that he will give opposition to the third proposition or to his Maiesties direction or to your Lordships request in that behalfe And the said Catholickes conceive it necessary in point of honour and reputation that no Order or Ordinance to their prejudice may remayne of Record in Parliament And if no such Order or Ordinance bee the proposition can hardly be denied wherefore it is humbly desired that the answer may Reasons against the 4. Answer be more full and satisfactory Vpon consideration of the fourth proposition of the reasons for the same it is humbly desired this answer be enlarged to the greater advantage of the said Catholickes then is expressed and although his Majesty cannot avoyde Recordes of this nature by Proclamation yet when his Majesty is informed that those indictments and outlawries were done of designe to extirpate a Nation and that in the proceedings it will appeare and here was practised his Majesties proclamation in a case of this generall concernment declaring his dislike of such proceedings will be of great consequence and his direction to the Parliament to that effect will no doubt accomplish the desire of the said Catholicks contained in this Proposition and his Royall directions to have the Procurers Actors and Plotters of and in the said indictments and outlawries and the whole proceedings questioned and the designe and practise being discovered and proved then the said records and all matters depending hereupon ought in law and justice to bee vacated and taken off the file and the pardon in the answer mentioned restores neither blood nor estate as it is there set downe and admitting the pardon were by Parliament it will bee of absolute necessitie to avoid all grants letter-patents leases and other acts letters or promises made to the prejudice of the persons attainted and to restore them to their blood and estate in which act a clause condemning the manner of the procuring of the said indictements and outlawries is thought necessary to bee inserted and the exception mentioned in the said answer is humbly desired by the said Catholicks to bee taken off and the clause viz. His Majesty will enlarge his mercy to be made more particular This answer is humby desired to bee made equall to all parties one Reasons against the 5. Answer way or other as it is propounded and that Catholicks should pay debts due upon them and loose the debts due unto them is conceived not to bee equall By his Majesties graces of the fourth yeare of his raigne all the Reasons against the 6. Answer estates in the Province of Conaght and Countie of Clare in pursuance of the Indentures of composition made by the late Queene Elizabeth for great and valuable considerations with the Lords and Gentrie of the said Province and Countie and of the grants and promises of the late King Iames of happy memorie were to bee confirmed and made good by act of Parliament the statute of limitation was then to bee passed which extended to all estates in the Kingdome therefore no greater rent ought to bee reserved upon the lands in the said Province or Countie nor upon the lands in the Counties of Tiperarie and Lyndak then was answeared to his Majestie in the said fourth yeare of his Majesties raigne And the great offices intituling his Majestie unto the before mentioned lands and to many mens estates in the County of Wickloe and to the territorie of Idough in the Countie of Kilkenny were enforced by an high hand the free-holders thereof being in possession of their repective estates then and for many ages before without interruption or question It is therefore humbly desired that those offices bee vacated and taken off the file by his Majesties gracious directions his highnes or his patentees being therein onely concerned as to the title found by those offices And that the statute and limitation may bee here enacted with a retrospect to the fourth yeare of his Majesties raigne at which time it was promised by his Majesty to have been passed as an act in this Kingdome and if it had beene so done the said offices had not been found And that the case of the Countie of Wickloe and the Countie of kilkenny meriting equall justice and favour with the rest ought not to be distinguished from them The clause in the said answer concerning Innes of Court and free-schooles as it is expressed in the answer will debarre Roman Catholicks Reasons against part of the 7 Answer so long as they are of that Religion from attaining to the knowledge of the lawes of the land or any other learning within this Kingdome This answer is conceived not to be satisfactorie and to generall and particular instances of the markes of his Majesties favour towards Reasons against the 8 Answer the ●aid Catholicks is humbly desired The reasons against this answer in all the parts thereof are the same that are urged for the ninth Proposition and upon consideration of To the 9. Answer those reasons the answer is humbly desired to be enlarged His Maiesties answer made to the 25. grievance in the 17. yeare of To the 10. Answer his Majesties raigne gives five yeares time to the unestated Lords to acquire estates in this Kingdome It is therefore humbly desired that the answer may be more satisfactory on consideration of the reasons for the tenth proposition and the state of affaires is so altered since that time that upon the now intended generall settlement more circumspection and warines is to be used then at any time before The said Catholicks doe conceive and affirme in all cleerenes that the Parliament of Ireland is independent of the Parliament of England To the 11. Answer without which independency this realme could be no Kingdome nor any Parliaments here necessary nor any subject of this Kingdome sure of his estate life or liberty other then at the will and pleasure of a Parliament wherein neither Lords Knights nor Burgesses of this Kingdome have place or vote and which vowed the destruction of all or most of this nation and unwarrantably assumed the power to dispose of their estates by the Statutes of subscription to malignants and Hollanders To draw this into any debate or question might prove of most dangerous consequence to this nation And yet a declaration of the Parliament here and an act as in the proposition is set down is humbly desired in regarde his Maiesty was drawne to give the Royall assent to the acts of subscription This answer is humbly desired to be enlarged according to the reasons The 12. Answer for the twelfth proposition The rates of staple commodities are humbly desired to be moderated by Commissioners to be appointed by both houses of Parliament The 13. Answer The reasons for the not continuance of the chiefe governor above three yeares are the same urged for the fourteenth proposition The 14. Answer The reasons for the erecting and continuance of trayned Bands are the same that are urged for the fifteenth proposition The 15. Answer This answer is humbly desired to be enlarged and the act of oblivion to extend to goods taken of eyther side although the Roman Catholickes suffered much more then all others in this warre and The 16. Answer your Lordship will consider the reasons for this proposition It is of necessitie the tryall of the persons to be excepted be by parliament The 17. Answer otherwise the tryall cannot be indifferent in this case Wee desire notwithstanding those reasons to be admitted to shew such further and other reasons and to adde herevnto what wee shal thinke fit touching the matter wherein the answers are short or not satisfactory FINIS