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nation_n church_n people_n world_n 4,021 5 4.7325 4 true
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A69535 The grand debate between the most reverend bishops and the Presbyterian divines appointed by His Sacred Majesty as commissioners for the review and alteration of the Book of common prayer, &c. : being an exact account of their whole proceedings : the most perfect copy. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.; Commission for the Review and Alteration of the Book of Common Prayer. 1661 (1661) Wing B1278A; Wing E3841; ESTC R7198 132,164 165

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not_o continue_v yet_o three_o generation_n and_o it_o be_v most_o evident_a that_o the_o apostle_n be_v entrust_v with_o the_o delivery_n of_o the_o entire_a rule_n of_o faith_n and_o worship_n and_o have_v such_o great_a advantage_n for_o our_o unity_n and_o peace_n will_v never_o have_v omit_v the_o form_n of_o a_o liturgy_n of_o universal_a usefulness_n to_o avoid_v all_o the_o foresay_a inconvenience_n if_o they_o have_v take_v this_o course_n of_o unity_n to_o be_v so_o needful_a or_o desirable_a as_o you_o seem_v to_o do_v whereas_o therefore_o you_o say_v you_o know_v no_o better_a or_o more_o efficatious_a way_n than_o our_o liturgy_n etc._n etc._n we_o reply_v 1._o the_o apostle_n know_v the_o best_a way_n of_o unity_n and_o of_o speak_v the_o same_o thing_n in_o the_o matter_n of_o god_n but_o the_o apostle_n know_v not_o our_o liturgy_n nor_o any_o common-prayer-book_n for_o aught_o have_v yet_o be_v prove_v ergo_fw-la the_o say_a liturgy_n be_v not_o the_o best_a way_n 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there_o have_v be_v as_o many_o mode_n and_o fashion_n of_o public_a worship_n as_o fancy_n we_o have_v have_v continual_a dissension_n which_o vaeriety_n of_o service_n must_v needs_o produce_v while_o every_o one_o natural_o desire_v and_o endeavour_v not_o only_o to_o maintain_v but_o to_o prefer_v his_o own_o way_n before_o all_o other_o whence_o we_o conceive_v there_o be_v no_o such_o way_n to_o the_o preservation_n of_o peace_n as_o for_o all_o to_o return_v to_o the_o strict_a use_n and_o practice_v of_o the_o form_n reply_n pardon_v we_o while_o we_o desire_v you_o to_o examine_v whether_o you_o speak_v as_o member_n that_o suffer_v with_o those_o that_o suffer_v or_o rather_o as_o insensible_a of_o the_o calamity_n of_o your_o brethren_n that_o be_v as_o uncharitable_a you_o say_v you_o live_v in_o peace_n but_o so_o do_v not_o the_o many_o thousand_o that_o be_v fain_o to_o seek_v they_o peaceable_a habitation_n in_o holland_n and_o in_o the_o desert_n of_o america_n nor_o the_o many_o thousand_o that_o live_v in_o danger_n of_o the_o high_a commission_n or_o bishop_n court_n at_o home_n and_o so_o in_o danger_n of_o every_o malicious_a neighbour_n that_o will_v accuse_v they_o hear_v sermon_n abroad_o when_o they_o have_v none_o at_o home_n or_o of_o meet_v in_o a_o neighbour_n house_n to_o pray_v or_o of_o not_o kneel_v in_o the_o receive_n of_o the_o sacrament_n etc._n etc._n we_o will_v not_o have_v remember_v you_o of_o these_o thing_n but_o that_o you_o necessitate_v we_o by_o plead_v your_o peace_n in_o those_o day_n as_o a_o argument_n for_o the_o impose_v of_o the_o liturgy_n 2._o may_v not_o scotland_n as_o strong_o argue_v from_o this_o medium_fw-la against_o the_o liturgy_n and_o say_v before_o the_o liturgy_n be_v impose_v on_o we_o we_o have_v peace_n but_o since_o then_o we_o have_v have_v no_o peace_n 3._o when_o the_o strict_a impose_v of_o the_o strict_a use_n and_o practice_n of_o these_o form_n be_v the_o very_a thing_n that_o 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if_o you_o tell_v we_o of_o those_o that_o differ_v from_o we_o in_o doctrine_n and_o be_v not_o of_o we_o it_o be_v as_o impertinent_a to_o the_o point_n of_o our_o own_o agreement_n in_o worship_n as_o to_o tell_v we_o of_o the_o papist_n and_n the_o best_a expedient_n to_o unite_v we_o all_o to_o that_o again_o and_o so_o to_o peace_n be_v beside_o our_o prayer_n to_o the_o god_n of_o peace_n to_o make_v we_o all_o of_o one_o mind_n in_o a_o house_n to_o labour_v to_o get_v true_a humility_n which_o will_v make_v we_o think_v our_o guide_n wise_a and_o fit_a to_o order_v we_o than_o we_o ourselves_o and_o christian_a charity_n which_o will_v teach_v we_o to_o think_v no_o evil_a of_o our_o superior_n but_o to_o judge_v they_o rather_o careful_a guide_n and_o father_n to_o we_o which_o be_v obtain_v nothing_o
tempore_fw-la expression_n which_o any_o man_n of_o natural_a 2._o part_n have_v a_o voluable_a tongue_n and_o audacity_n may_v attain_v to_o without_o any_o special_a gift_n repl._n all_o inward_a grace_n of_o the_o spirit_n be_v not_o proper_o call_v the_o spirit_n of_o prayer_n nor_o be_v the_o spirit_n of_o prayer_n that_o gift_n of_o prayer_n which_o we_o speak_v of_o nor_o do_v we_o call_v it_o by_o the_o name_n of_o a_o special_a gift_n nor_o do_v we_o deny_v that_o ordinary_a man_n of_o natural_a part_n and_o voluable_a tongue_n may_v attain_v it_o but_o yet_o we_o humble_o conceive_v that_o as_o there_o be_v a_o gift_n of_o preach_v so_o also_o of_o prayer_n which_o god_n bestow_v in_o the_o use_n of_o mean_n diversify_v much_o according_a to_o man_n natural_a part_n &_o their_o diligence_n as_o other_o acquire_v ability_n be_v but_o also_o much_o depend_v on_o that_o grace_n that_o be_v indeed_o special_a which_o make_v man_n love_n and_o relish_v the_o holy_a subject_n of_o such_o spiritual_a study_n and_o the_o holy_a exercise_n of_o those_o grace_n that_o be_v the_o soul_n of_o prayer_n and_o consequent_o make_v man_n follow_v on_o such_o exercise_n with_o delight_n and_o diligence_n and_o therefore_o with_o success_n and_o also_o god_n be_v free_a in_o give_v or_o deny_v his_o blessing_n to_o man_n endeavour_n if_o you_o think_v there_o be_v no_o gift_n of_o preach_v you_o will_v too_o dishonourable_o level_v the_o ministry_n if_o read_v be_v all_o the_o gift_n of_o prayer_n or_o preach_v there_o need_v no_o great_a understanding_n or_o learn_v to_o it_o nor_o shall_v cobbler_n and_o tinker_n be_v so_o unfit_a man_n for_o minister_n as_o they_o be_v think_v nor_o will_v the_o reason_n be_v very_o apparent_a why_o a_o woman_n may_v not_o speak_v by_o preach_v or_o pray_v in_o the_o church_n but_o if_o there_o be_v any_o such_o gift_n as_o be_v pretend_v it_o be_v to_o be_v subject_a to_o 3._o the_o prophet_n and_o to_o the_o order_n of_o the_o church_n 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the_o pretend_a good_a of_o exercise_v the_o gift_n it_o be_v fit_a that_o they_o who_o desire_v such_o liberty_n in_o public_a devotion_n shall_v first_o give_v the_o church_n security_n that_o no_o private_a opinion_n shall_v be_v put_v into_o their_o prayer_n as_o be_v desire_v in_o the_o first_o proposal_n and_o that_o nothing_o contrary_a to_o the_o faith_n shall_v be_v utter_v before_o god_n or_o offer_v up_o to_o he_o in_o the_o church_n repl._n the_o mischief_n which_o you_o pretend_v be_v inconvenience_n attend_v humane_a imperfection_n which_o you_o will_v cure_v with_o a_o mischief_n your_o argument_n from_o the_o abuse_n against_o the_o use_n be_v a_o palpable_a fallacy_n which_o cast_v out_o physician_n in_o some_o country_n and_o root_v up_o vine_n in_o other_o and_o condemn_v the_o read_n of_o the_o scripture_n in_o a_o know_v tongue_n among_o the_o papist_n if_o the_o apostle_n that_o complain_v then_o so_o much_o of_o division_n and_o preach_v false_a doctrine_n and_o in_o envy_n and_o strife_n etc._n etc._n have_v think_v the_o way_n of_o cure_n have_v be_v in_o send_v minister_n about_o the_o world_n with_o a_o prayer-book_n and_o sermon-book_n and_o to_o have_v tie_v they_o only_o to_o read_v either_o one_o or_o both_o of_o these_o no_o doubt_n but_o they_o will_v have_v be_v so_o regardful_a of_o the_o church_n as_o to_o have_v compose_v such_o a_o prayer-book_n or_o sermon-book_n themselves_o and_o not_o jest_v we_o to_o the_o uncertainty_n of_o a_o authority_n not_o infallible_a nor_o to_o the_o division_n that_o follow_v the_o imposition_n of_o a_o questionable_a power_n or_o that_o which_o unquestionable_o be_v not_o universal_a and_o therefore_o can_v procure_v no_o universal_a concord_n if_o one_o man_n among_o you_o draw_v up_o a_o form_n of_o prayer_n it_o be_v his_o single_a conception_n and_o why_o a_o man_n as_o learned_a and_o able_a may_v not_o be_v trust_v to_o conceive_v a_o prayer_n for_o the_o use_n of_o a_o single_a 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expression_n as_o be_v great_o to_o the_o benefit_n and_o comfort_n of_o ourselves_o when_o we_o join_v with_o they_o and_o if_o such_o general_a accusation_n may_v serve_v in_o a_o matter_n of_o public_a and_o common_a fact_n there_o be_v no_o way_n for_o the_o justification_n of_o the_o innocent_a and_o that_o it_o be_v no_o such_o common_a guilt_n will_v seem_v more_o probable_a to_o they_o that_o consider_v that_o such_o conceive_a prayer_n both_o prepare_v and_o extemperate_a have_v be_v ordinary_o use_v in_o the_o pulpit_n in_o england_n and_o scotland_n before_o our_o day_n till_o now_o and_o there_o have_v be_v power_n enough_o in_o the_o bishop_n and_o other_o before_o the_o war_n to_o punish_v those_o that_o speak_v ridiculous_o seditious_o impious_o or_o blasphemous_o and_o yet_o so_o few_o be_v the_o instance_n even_o when_o jealousy_n be_v most_o busy_a of_o minister_n punish_v or_o once_o accuse_v of_o any_o such_o fault_n in_o prayer_n as_o that_o we_o find_v it_o not_o easy_a to_o remember_v any_o considerable_a number_n of_o they_o there_o be_v great_a number_n punish_v for_o not_o read_v the_o book_n for_o play_v on_o the_o lord_n day_n or_o for_o preach_v too_o oft_o and_o such_o like_a for_o one_o that_o be_v ever_o question_v for_o such_o kind_n of_o pray_v and_o the_o former_a show_v that_o it_o be_v not_o for_o want_v of_o will_n to_o be_v severe_a that_o they_o spare_v they_o as_o to_o the_o latter_a and_o if_o it_o be_v but_o few_o that_o be_v guilty_a of_o any_o intolerable_a fault_n of_o that_o nature_n in_o their_o prayer_n we_o hope_v you_o will_v not_o go_v on_o to_o believe_v that_o the_o mischief_n that_o come_v by_o the_o fail_n of_o those_o few_o be_v far_o great_a than_o the_o benefit_n of_o conceive_a prayer_n by_o all_o other_o we_o presume_v not_o to_o make_v our_o experience_n the_o measure_n of_o you_o or_o of_o other_o man_n you_o may_v tell_v we_o what_o do_v most_o good_a or_o hurt_v to_o yourselves_o and_o those_o that_o have_v so_o communicate_v their_o experience_n to_o you_o but_o we_o also_o may_v speak_v our_o own_o and_o they_o that_o have_v discover_v they_o to_o we_o and_o we_o must_v serious_o profess_v that_o we_o have_v find_v far_o more_o benefit_n to_o ourselves_o and_o to_o our_o congregation_n as_o far_o as_o our_o conference_n and_o converse_v with_o they_o and_o our_o observation_n of_o the_o effect_n allow_v we_o to_o discern_v by_o conceive_a prayer_n than_o by_o the_o common-prayer-book_n we_o find_v that_o the_o benefit_n of_o conceive_a prayer_n be_v to_o keep_v the_o mind_n in_o serious_a employment_n and_o to_o awaken_v the_o affection_n and_o to_o make_v we_o fervent_a and_o importunate_a and_o the_o inconvenience_n be_v that_o some_o weak_a man_n be_v apt_a as_o in_o preach_v and_o conference_n so_o in_o prayer_n to_o show_v their_o
in_o this_o church_n and_o nation_n occasion_v sad_a division_n betwixt_o minister_n &_o minister_n betwixt_o minister_n and_o people_n expose_v many_o 1_o orthodox_n preacher_n to_o the_o displeasure_n of_o ruler_n and_o no_o other_o fruit_n than_o these_o can_v be_v look_v for_o from_o the_o retain_v these_o ceremony_n repl._n we_o have_v rather_o you_o have_v take_v our_o reason_n as_o we_o lay_v they_o down_o than_o to_o have_v so_o alter_v they_o ergo_fw-la have_v tell_v you_o that_o some_o hold_v they_o unlawful_a and_o other_o inconvenient_a etc._n etc._n and_o desire_v that_o they_o may_v not_o be_v impose_v on_o such_o who_o judge_v such_o imposition_n a_o violation_n of_o the_o royalty_n of_o christ_n etc._n etc._n you_o seem_v to_o take_v this_o as_o our_o own_o sense_n and_o that_o of_o all_o the_o ceremony_n of_o which_o we_o there_o make_v no_o mention_n you_o refer_v we_o to_o hooker_n since_o who_o write_n aim_n in_o his_o fresh_a suit_n and_o bradshaw_n and_o parker_n and_o many_o other_o have_v write_v that_o against_o the_o ceremony_n that_o never_o be_v answer_v that_o we_o know_v of_o but_o deserve_v your_o consideration_n before_o we_o give_v particular_a answer_n to_o these_o several_a reason_n it_o 1._o will_v not_o be_v unnecessary_a to_o lay_v down_o some_o certain_a general_a premise_n or_o rule_n which_o will_v be_v useful_a in_o our_o whole_a discourse_n 1._o that_o god_n have_v not_o give_v a_o power_n only_o but_o a_o command_n also_o of_o impose_v whatsoever_o shall_v be_v true_o decent_a and_o become_v his_o public_a service_n 1_o cor._n 14._o after_o st_n paul_n have_v order_v some_o particular_a rule_n for_o pray_v praise_v prophesy_v etc._n etc._n he_o conclude_v with_o this_o general_a canon_n let_v all_o thing_n be_v do_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o a_o fit_a scheme_n habit_n or_o fashion_v decent_o and_o that_o there_o may_v be_v uniformity_n in_o those_o decent_a performance_n let_v there_o be_v a_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d rule_n or_o canon_n for_o that_o purpose_n repl._n as_o to_o your_o first_o rule_n we_o answer_v 1._o it_o be_v one_o thing_n to_o impose_v in_o general_n that_o all_o be_v do_v decent_o and_o in_o order_n this_o god_n himself_o have_v impose_v by_o his_o apostle_n and_o it_o be_v another_o thing_n to_o impose_v in_o particular_a that_o this_o or_o that_o be_v use_v as_o decent_a and_o orderly_a concern_v this_o we_o add_v it_o be_v in_o the_o text_n say_v let_v it_o be_v do_v but_o not_o let_v it_o be_v impose_v yet_o from_o other_o scripture_n we_o doubt_v not_o but_o circumstance_n of_o mere_a decency_n &_o order_n as_o determine_v time_n place_n utensil_n etc._n etc._n which_o be_v common_a to_o thing_n civil_a and_o sacred_a though_o not_o the_o symbolical_a ceremony_n which_o afterward_o we_o confute_v may_v be_v impose_v with_o the_o necessary_a caution_n and_o limitation_n afterward_o lay_v down_o but_o 1._o that_o if_o any_o usurper_n will_v pretend_v a_o power_n from_o christ_n to_o impose_v such_o thing_n on_o the_o church_n though_o the_o thing_n be_v lawful_a we_o must_v take_v heed_n how_o we_o acknowledge_v a_o usurp_a power_n by_o formal_a obedience_n 2._o a_o just_a power_n may_v impose_v they_o but_o to_o just_a end_n as_o the_o preservation_n and_o success_n of_o the_o modified_a worship_n or_o ordinance_n and_o if_o they_o real_o conduce_v not_o to_o those_o end_n they_o sin_n in_o impose_v they_o 3._o yet_o the_o subject_n be_v bind_v to_o obey_v a_o true_a authority_n in_o such_o imposition_n where_o the_o matter_n belong_v to_o the_o cognizance_n and_o office_n of_o the_o ruler_n and_o where_o the_o mistake_n be_v not_o so_o great_a as_o to_o bring_v great_a mischief_n to_o the_o church_n than_o the_o suspending_a of_o our_o active_a obedience_n will_v do_v 4._o but_o if_o these_o thing_n be_v determine_v under_o pretence_n of_o order_n and_o decency_n to_o the_o plain_a destruction_n of_o the_o ordinance_n modify_v and_o of_o the_o intend_a end_n they_o cease_v to_o be_v mean_n and_o we_o must_v not_o use_v they_o 5._o or_o if_o under_o the_o name_n of_o thing_n decent_a and_o of_o order_n man_n will_v meddle_v with_o thing_n that_o belong_v not_o to_o their_o office_n as_o to_o institute_v a_o new_a worship_n for_o god_n new_a sacrament_n or_o any_o thing_n forbid_v in_o the_o general_a prohibition_n of_o add_v or_o diminish_v this_o be_v a_o usurpation_n and_o not_o a_o act_n of_o authority_n and_o we_o be_v bind_v in_o obedience_n to_o god_n to_o disobey_v they_o 6._o where_o governor_n may_v command_v at_o set_a time_n and_o by_o proportionable_a penalty_n enforce_v if_o they_o command_v when_o it_o will_v destroy_v the_o end_n or_o enforce_v by_o such_o penalty_n as_o destroy_v or_o cross_v it_o they_o great_o sin_n by_o such_o command_n thus_o we_o have_v more_o distinct_o give_v you_o our_o sense_n about_o the_o matter_n of_o your_o first_o rule_n not_o inferior_n but_o superior_n must_v judge_v what_o be_v convenient_a and_o 2._o decent_a they_o who_o must_v order_v that_o all_o be_v do_v decent_o must_v of_o necessity_n first_o judge_v what_o be_v convenient_a and_o decent_a to_o be_v order_v repl._n your_o second_o rule_n also_o be_v too_o crude_o deliver_v and_o therefore_o we_o must_v add_v 1._o a_o judgement_n be_v a_o sentence_n in_o order_n to_o some_o execution_n and_o judgement_n be_v specify_v from_o the_o end_n to_o which_o they_o be_v such_o mean_n when_o the_o question_n be_v either_o what_o law_n shall_v be_v make_v or_o what_o penalty_n shall_v be_v exercise_v the_o magistrate_n be_v the_o only_a judge_n and_o not_o the_o bishop_n or_o other_o subject_a in_o the_o first_o he_o exercise_v his_o judicium_fw-la discretionis_fw-la in_o order_n to_o a_o public_a act._n in_o the_o second_o he_o exercise_v a_o public_a judgement_n when_o the_o question_n be_v what_o order_n pro_fw-la tempore_fw-la be_v fit_a in_o circumstantial_o for_o this_o present_a congregation_n the_o proper_a presbyter_n or_o pastor_n of_o that_o congregation_n be_v the_o directive_n judge_n by_o god_n appointment_n 3._o the_o magistrate_n be_v ruler_n of_o these_o pastor_n as_o he_o be_v of_o physician_n pailosopher_n and_o other_o subject_n he_o may_v make_v they_o such_o general_a rule_n especial_o for_o restraint_n to_o go_v by_o as_o may_v not_o destroy_v the_o exercise_n of_o their_o own_o pastoral_n power_n as_o he_o may_v forbid_v a_o physician_n to_o use_v some_o dangerous_a medicine_n on_o his_o subject_n and_o may_v punish_v he_o when_o he_o wilful_o kill_v any_o of_o they_o but_o may_v not_o on_o that_o presence_n appoint_v he_o what_o and_o how_o and_o when_o and_o to_o who_o he_o shall_v administer_v and_o so_o become_v physician_n himself_o alone_o 4._o when_o the_o question_n be_v who_o shall_v be_v exclude_v from_o the_o communion_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n the_o pastor_n of_o the_o church_n or_o congregation_n be_v the_o first_o proper_a judge_n 5._o when_o the_o question_n be_v who_o shall_v be_v exclude_v from_o or_o receive_v into_o the_o communion_n of_o all_o the_o associate_v church_n of_o which_o we_o be_v natural_o capable_a of_o communion_n the_o associate_v pastor_n or_o bishop_n of_o these_o church_n in_o synod_n be_v judg●●_n beyond_o this_o there_o be_v no_o judge_n 6._o when_o the_o question_n be_v whether_o the_o law_n of_o magistrate_n or_o canon_n of_o bishop_n be_v agreeable_a or_o not_o to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o so_o the_o obedience_n be_v lawful_a or_o unlawful_a the_o conscience_n of_o each_o individual_a subject_n be_v the_o judge_n per_fw-la judicium_fw-la discretionis_fw-la as_o to_o his_o own_o practice_n and_o if_o man_n have_v not_o this_o judgement_n of_o discern_v but_o must_v act_v upon_o absolute_a implicit_a obedience_n than_o first_o man_n be_v rule_v as_o unreasonable_a second_o the_o magistrate_n be_v make_v a_o god_n or_o such_o a_o leviathan_n as_o hobbs_n describe_v he_o three_o and_o then_o all_o sin_n may_v lawful_o be_v commit_v if_o command_v but_o we_o be_v assure_v none_o of_o this_o your_o sense_n these_o rule_n and_o canon_n for_o decency_n make_v and_o urge_v by_o superior_n 3._o be_v to_o be_v obey_v by_o inferior_n till_o it_o be_v make_v as_o clear_v that_o now_o they_o be_v not_o bind_v to_o obey_v as_o it_o be_v evident_a in_o general_n that_o they_o ought_v to_o obey_v superior_n for_o if_o the_o exemption_n from_o obedience_n be_v not_o 13._o as_o evident_a as_o the_o command_n to_o obey_v it_o must_v needs_o be_v sin_n not_o to_o obey_v repl._n to_o your_o three_o rule_n we_o add_v it_o be_v first_o considerable_a what_o the_o thing_n be_v and_o then_o how_o it_o be_v apprehend_v if_o it_o be_v real_o lawful_a and_o well_o command_v and_o to_o be_v obey_v it_o be_v no_o ignorance_n doubt_n or_o error_n of_o the_o