it selfe To be plaine therefore though I know you to be a very Heluo librorum of vast indefatigable reading and to have a stomack proportionable of a strong digestion yet give me leave to tell you as my loving and beloved friend and brother that the subject you here deale with is not of so easie a digestion as that subitane or sudden apprehensions thereof may be wâ—ll said to be digested Strong meats you know taken downe liberally into the stomack doe require the longer time for a kindly digestion And a sudden digestion is apt to leave many indigested crudâ—â—ies ingendring malignant humours in the body You digest your apprehensions into considerable Questions as you call them to be solemnly debated by sober minds but passing along brother I find your Questions turned into your owne resolutions so as in stead of debating them by sober minded men you forestall them and tell us that these Independents as you style them are guilty of Arrogancy Schisme Contumacy and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences in case they shall not submit to such a publick Church-Government Rites Discipline as a Synod and Parliament shall conceive most consonant to Gods Word c. And all along your Queries are so digested by you as that they cast up a very ill sent if not rather a judiciall sentence against those Churches which not honoris causa you name Independents But we shall answer to the particulars as they come in order Thus much of your Proeme or Preface To your first Question Before I punctually answer this and so the rest of your Questions let me premise this as an {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which I must demand of you a due to my Profession that forasmuch as you are a learned Lawyer and able to speake much of Lawes and Customes of Nations and Churches and my selfe am a professor of Divinitie the Rules and Principles whereof are all of them laid downe in the Scripture unto which alone all Questions about Faith and Religion are so reducible and finally determinable as who so denieth this denieth the faith and is not to be disputed with as a denier of Principles therefore I require of you as a Christian brother to joyne issue with me in this point that all your Questions may be resolved by cleare Scriptures and reason evidently deduced from them and this with all brevitie and perspicuitie Now to your first question the summe whereof is Whether every severall Nation Republick and Nationall Church hath not under the Gospell a * liberty and latitude left them to chuse and settle such an orderly forme of church-Church-government Discipline and Ecclesiasticall Rites as is most suteable to their particular Civill government lawes manners customes being not repugnant to the word of God This being as I conceive a generally received truth among all Protestant Churches And whether some things in all Church-governments Discipline Ceremonies whatsoever are not and must not be left to humane prudence for which there is no direct precept nor pattern in sacred writ Which truth is assented to by all parties Churches whatsoever in theory or practice This is the substance of your first Question To which I answer And first to your quotation of the Harmony I will answer one for all Sect. 16. August Confessio 4. Traditiones de â—â—riis c. We condemne not Traditions of Holy-dayes of the Lords day of the Nativity of Easter and the rest for a politick end Here you see they put the observation of the Lords day among humane Traditions which I suppose you doe not approve Again they allow onely such observations as God by the Morall Law and the voyce of Nature it selfe commandeth And thirdly That humane rites be not imposed Ne conscientiae onerentur That mens consciences bee not burthened And in a word To shape Religion in point of Church-government Discipline Ceremonies to every Nation Republick Nationall Church and to Civill Government Lawes Manners Customes and so to humane Prudence as you say what is it but to shape a coat for the Moone Whereas the Scripture holds forth unto us but onely one forme of Church-government and Discipline which ought not to be altered according to the diversitie of humane Lawes and Customes in all Kingdomes and Common-weales as you affirme And whereas you make a proviso Alwayes provided every thing bee consonant and no way repugnant to the word of God To what purpose is this when the very liberty you give of altering Church-government and Discipline as may be sutable to humane Laws and Customes is it self repugnant and no way consonant to the word of God as we shall shew by and by This is transformare Ecclesiam in humanam politiam to transforme the Church into a humane Politie * Hae imaginationes omnibus aetatibus inde usque ab initio mundi nocuerunt Ecclesiae semper nocebunt These imaginations or fancies have in all ages from the beginning of the world hurt the Church and will alwayes huâ—t Thus the Harmony * Now brother whereas you seem to challenge us infallibly to evidence by any Gospel Text that Christ hath peremptorily prescribed one and the self-same form of Ecclesiasticall government Discipline Rites to all Nations Churches in all particulars from which they may in no case vary under pain of mortall sin schisme or being no true Churches of Christ with whom good Christians may not safely communicate First what evidence from Scripture can you bring why it should not necessarily be so You would seeme to make this a ground why church-Church-government Discipline Rites should be alterable according to the severall laws and customes of severall Nations Because say you Christ enjoyned the preaching of the Gospel to all Nations and People whatsoever who have their severall established defferent formes of Civill government Laws Manners Rules and Customes sutable to their respective dispositions Climes Republicks By this reason you might argue that therefore the Gospel it self may be preached variously according to the variation of the climate and if not so then say I neither is the Church-government and Discipline to be varied according to the diversity of Nations Laws Customes Climates For brother the Church-government and Discipline now in the time of the Gospel is a part of the Gospel as being the Gospel-government and Discipline of the Evan 〈…〉 l Churches And brother why should you think that Christ now under the Gospel or New Testament hath â—eâ—t a greater liberty to men to alter that form of Church-government and Discipline which in the New Testament is laid down then he did in the Old Testament under the Leviticall Law What a strict charge did this Law-maker give to Moses See saith he that thou do all things according to the pattern shewed thee in the Mount He must not vary one pin * But some will say When the Tribes of Israel were reduced under a kingly
government as in Davids time the service of God was in greater state and externall pomp when the Temple was built then it was before in the Tabernacle whereby it may appear that there was a liberty left to David to alter the form of worship so as was sutable to the Regall state But I answer Here was no liberty left to man to alter any thing in the worship of God or in the Church-government For God was so exact in this that he would not leave it to David himself though both a King and a Prophet and a man after Gods own heart to set up what worship he pleased in the Temple but God gave him an exact patterne of all and that not onely by his Spirit but in writing that he might neither adde nor omit in the least tittle 1 Chron. 28. And you know it was never left to the Kings of Judah to do the least thing in point of Reformation but onely to see that the Priests do all strictly not any thing as seemed good to them but all according to the precise rule of the Law 2 Chron. 31. Now was the great Law-giver so strict under the old Testament and is he grown more remisse under the New In Ezekiels vision of the Temple or Church in the time of the Gospel Ezek. 43. 10 11. wee reade of a patterne form fashion of everie particular thing of the House of God which is his Church exactly set down and measured by Gods own speciall direction Or are men more wise and more faithfull now then David was that Christ should trust every Nation with such a liberty as this to alter and diversifie church-Church-government and Discipline so as might be most agreeable to this or that Kingdoms Common-weales Countreys custome commodity conveniencie And as for your Nationall Church here mentioned we shall take a just measure of it when we come to your ninth Question And whereas you quote in the Margine 1 Cor. 14. 40. 11. 34. on which you ground your liberty to form your Church-government Discipline sutably to each particular Civill government Alas brother these very Scriptures our Prelates abused to maintain their unlimited liberty of setting up their rites and ceremonies as sutable to the Civil government which absurdity I have fully refelled in my Reply to Canterburies Relation Whereas the Apostle there exhorteth that all things be done decently and in order according to those rules they had received of him to which agreeth the other place alledged by you Other things will I set in order when I come as Titus 1. 5. He left Titus in Crete that he might set in order the things that remained but all according to the Apostles direction for Church-government and choice of Officers And we should have a mad world of it if civill States in severall Countreys should have liberty to frame Church-government and Discipline as should most sute with their particular conditions This liberty is that which both Ecclesiasticall and Civill States usurping turned the spirituall Kingdom of Christ over Consciences and Churches into a temporal and secular Kingdom or rather indeed an Anti-christian Tyranny or Hierarchy so as by this means it came to passe that the second Beast ascending out of the earth to wit the Pope Revel. 13. 11. commands the inhabitants of the earth to make an image that is to set up a forme of Religion and Church-government sutable to the Image of the first Beast to wit the Imperiall State of Rome And thus came to be erected the Hierarchicall Church-government in all pomp and points sutable with the Romane Monarchy So dangerous is that libertie which brings such bondage According to that Licentia sumus omnes deteriores this brings not liberty but licentiousnesse Your second Question is Whether if any Kingdome or Nation shall by a Nationall Councell Synod and Parliament upon serious debate elect such a publick church-Church-government Rites Discipline as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word to the Laws Government under which they live and manners of their people and then settle them by a generall Law all particular Churches members of that Kingdome and Nation be not therefore actually obliged in point of * conscience and Christianity readily to submit thereto and no wayes to seek an exemption from it under pain of being guilty of arrogancie schisme contumacie and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences I answer That is Whether the Kingdome and Nation of England c. The summe is you would here make way for a politicall State Church-government or a mixt Church-government partly according to Gods word and partly to the Laws and government under which we live and partly to the manners of the people Humano capiti cervicem jungere equinam Or populout placerent c. Truly brother your very question is hereticall you must pardon the expression which otherwise would not come home to the full truth And your word Elect imports no lesse For Elect taken in that sense as you here apply it to set up a form of Religion of Church-government and Discipline with Rites and ceremonies sutable to the Laws and customes of a State and manners of the people and AS MEN CONCEIVE is of the same signification with {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which signifieth a taking up an heresie upon humane election or as you say As they conceive For you say not Such a Church-government c. as is most consonant to Gods word but such as they conceive to be most consonant So as you hang your Church-government upon mens conceit or opinion of consonancy with Gods word and not upon a reall and essentiall consonancy Just like the Prelate of Canterbury who in his Relation hangs the credit of the Scripture upon the Author and the opinion we have saith he of his sufficiency Which I have noted in my Reply But thus you open a wide sluce to let in an ocean of inundation of all sorts of Religion into all parts of the vvorld vvhen every Religion shall be measured by the line of mans conception what men CONCEIVE agreeable to Gods word Thus might Henry 4. the late French King to make his way the easier to the Crown through so many difficulties apostatize from the Protestant Religion and turn to Popery as conceiving it sutable to the word of God to comply with the State of France and the manners of the people for the establishing of his kingdome as he conceived though he was deceived by becoming himself a Popish King And so Jeroboam with his Counsell might CONCEIVE it agreeable enough to Gods word to set up his Calves most sutable to the new laws and customes of that State and to the manners of the people who are apt enough to embrace idolatry and superstition as Ephraim willingly walked after the commandment Hos. 5. 11. And so in the rest Now that is an heresie which is an error conceived and maintained against the word of God
in all Christian Realmes States from their first reception of the Gospell till this present compared with twelve places of Scripture at the least c. Therefore there must be of necessity a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular Congregations persons ought to be subordinate to the apparent subversion of the Novell Independent Inventions Now for answer to this large Argument brieflly And first to the Proposition I deny that you can bring any infallible proofes or one proof that there either are or ever have been any Nationall Churches by any other institution but meerly humane nor any one of divine institution but onely that of the Jewes in the old Testament and now wholly dissolved of which we have spoken sufficiently before And which also was not onely Nationall but in a manner Oecumenick and universall as appeares Acts 2. and such therefore as I hope you contend not for now for then there would be a Pope as there was an high Priest then c. And brother you must give us leave to stand upon this as for our lives that we dare not admit of any Churches as the true and genuine Churches of Christ which are not of his owne institution that is such as are not called and gathered by the voyce of Christ in his word and by that Scepter of his swayed and by that alone Law of his governed And therefore be intreated good brother not to presse upon us such your Churches whose not onely institution in their severall divisions but government also in their combinations is meerly humane and therefore as a house founded on a sand which against a storme cannot stand You must first be able to found your Nationall Church in the Scripture or assure yourselfe if a man will build upon it a common Presbyteriall Classicall government and dwell there he will bring an old house upon his head when God shall begin to storm it But to come to your perticular instances in the Assumption for the proofe of your Nationall Church The first is the Catholicke Church throughout the world What is this to a Nationall Church Though the Catholick include all the true Churches throughout the world yet doth it not therefore conclude any Church to be Nationall The second instance is the Nationall Church of the Jewes and from hence you can conclude as little for your Nationall Churches as before we have shewed For bring us any one Nationall that is one intire Church or congregation as that of the Jewes was or that is of one family as that was or that is a type of Christs spirituall Kingdome as that was or that is the universall Church of God visible on earth as that was or that is governed by the like lawes that that was when your selfe doe confesse that the government of your Nationall Churches is to be regulated by humane Lawes Customes Manners and not by Gods word alone whereas that of the Jewes was wholly governed by Gods own Law and not at all by the Lawes of men untill it came to be corrupted contrary to the expresse Law of God And you confesse also that the government of your Nationall Churches is alterable according to the Lawes Customes Manners of severall Nations whereas the government of the Church of the Iewes was unalterable till Christ himselfe did put a period to that Oeconomy In a word your Nationall Churches are a mixed multitude consisting for the greatest part of prophane persons being as a confused luâ—p whereof there are nine parts of leaven to one of pure flowre so as the whole is miserably soured and the flowre made altogether unsavoury But that of the Iewes in its naturall and externall constitution was all holy an holy Nation a Royall Priesthood a peculiar People all the congregation holy every one of them So as in no one particular doe your Nationall Churches hold parallell with that of the Iewes no not in the least resemblance Your third instance is the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles Elders and Brethren at Ierusalem Acts 15. who made and sent Binding Decrees to the Churches And what of this brother Therefore Nationall Churches or generall Councels or Provinciall have the like power to make and impose binding Decrees and send them to the Churches Why first of all that Assembly was not any Nationall Church representative Secondly neither was it a Generall or Provinciall Councell Thirdly being an Assembly of the Apostles with the Elders and Brethren it could not erre for the Apostles had infallibility of judgement being guided by the holy Ghost infallibly and the Elders and Brethren did assent to their determinations And was there ever such a Synodicall Assembly since that Had euer any Councell besides that infallibility of judgement Shew it brother and then wee will beleeve they may make Binding Decrees and wee will submit unto them Nay dare any Assembly of men on earth say It seemed good to the holy Ghost and Us That 's enough for the black mouth of blasphemy the Roman lying Oracle But in your second thoughts you traverse this * place more largely which wee shall consider when we come to it In the mean time what I have here and before said may suffice to stay the Readers stomace But you adde All this is seconded with all Occumenicall Nationall Provinciall Councels Synods and the Church-government throughout the world in all Christian Realmes States c. Alas brother all these put together are in no sort sutable to make a second to that Apostolicall Assembly they cannot hold the least proportion with it to make a second to that unsampled sample though they make never so great a summe And whereas you make the up-shot of this your question to the apparent sub version of Novell Independent Invention these be your words we have proved it to be neither mans Invention but Gods own institution nor Novell as having its foundation in the New Testament nor yet Independent otherwise then that it depends not upon any humane authority or jurisdiction out of it self not upon any such conformity to humane lawes or customes or manners of every Nation or people as you speake of Neither doe you take away our Argument from the most usuall phrase of the Apostles calling the Churches in the plurall by saying Historians often speake of the Churches in England for they doe not so speak when they mean the congregations but the material Temples but speake of England as one Church when they understand the people and there hath not been shewen any dependence of those Churches as the dependency of the English Churches is knowne The ninth Question Thus reduced in summe That liberty which the Apostles had and used in ordaining supplying instituting new Rites Orders Canons c. for the Churches peace and welfare they transmitted to posteritie But the Apostles had and used such liberty c. Therefore the same liberty have all Churches in the world in all ages succeeding the Apostles in
this question as I find them scattered along I shall glean them and so bundle them up for a conclusion at this time For this question seems to be a Lerna of Queries And first you quarrell the Title of Independencie Truly brother none of all those whom you thus intitle doe at all glory in this name so as to give you thanks for your so often stiling them thus in one poore sheet of paper seeing thâ—y cannot imagine you doe it honoris gratia while every where you set it as a brand Notwithstanding we are not so ashamed of it as utterly to disclaime it and that for two reasons First for distinction sake between us and that which you call your Presbyteriall government The second is because this word Independent is to signifie that we hold all particular Churches of Christ to bee of equall authority and none to have or exercise jurisdiction over another but that each Church is under Christs government as the sole Head King Lord Law giveâ— thereof But wee would not that you should give us this as a nick name or a name of reproach or badge of scorne noâ— that you should call us so as if we denied subjection to civill authority in matters of civill government nor yet that you should mean such an Independeâ—cie as if we held not good correspondence with all sister-sister-Churches by way of conseciation consultation communion communication mutuall consolation supportation and in a word in all things duties offices as wherein Christs Kingdom is held up the graces of the Churches exercised the liberties of each Church preserved intire which is the glory of Christ which we have touched before And therefore brother you mightily mistake the matter when you interpret Independency as not needing both the Communion and assistance of other persons Nations Churches Then secondly you question Whether the Nationall Covenant dothin sundry respects strongly ingage the Nation against Independency Truly brother not at all so long as all our Reformation is to be reduced to and regulated by the word of God And that is a sure foundation whereon our Independencie dependeth In which respect the Nation is by the Covenant â—â—gâ—ged for Independencie Thirdly you queree whether if Independencie rightly taken still as before if stript of all disgâ—ising pretences be not Pharisaicall vainglorious selfe-conceitednesse c. Here brother you lash us with a whip of many cords but that our armour is pâ—ooâ— So you have done more then ten times yea all along And that all this should come from a friend a brother a suffeâ—er from a companion counsellor how hard is it to be born 〈…〉 you tell us of disguising pretences if stript and for this you have provided an unmaâ—king for us O brother we have no such dâ—sguisings as to feare your unmaskings We may in this boldly answere with the Apostle 1 I hess 2. 3. 4. 5. And for Pharisaicall Spirituall pride vain-glory singularity selfe-constitednesse of superlative holinesse which as dirt you throw so liberally in our face To this brother I will say no more but this Sâ— sat est accusasse quis innoeens erit It a bare and malicious accuâ—aâ—ion be eâ—ouâ—h to fasten a crime who shall be innocent And did you ever enter into our hearts to see what secret spirituall tumours and apostumations be there and if not how come you presently in the very same sentence and with the same breath to blow all this besmearing dust into your owne face For you charge us with passing uncharitable censures upon mens hearts and spiritual â—states of which say you God never made us Iudges and forbids us for to judg because he onely knowes mens hearts as was noted before Now then brother why doe you thus judge the hearts and spirituall estates of your brethren Consider it well in cold blood And brother what doe you see in the Independencie that you should thus judg them The Tree is knowne by the Fruits Are they ambitions of preferments of glory of the world of favour of great ones of praise of men that doe voluntarily forsake all and strip themselves of all to follow naked Christ Pharisees indeed loved the prayse of men more then the praise of God That 's Pharisaicall so in the rest Therefore brother tell not the world what malice may suggest unto you to think of us but what you â—â—e or observe in us And yet brother the â—nâ—e of charity is that you should first tell your brother privately oâ— his fault before you blaze it to the world But thus at least we come to know our â—aâ—â—t And what is it Wee doe say you dâ—â—m our selves too transcendently holâ— sâ—â—stified and religious aâ—ovâ—o heâ—s that we esteem them altogether unworthy of yea whoâ—â— exclude them from our Communion ourch-society as Publicans heathens or pâ—ofâ—ne â—ersons though perhaps as good or better then our selvs unlesse they will submit to their Church-covenants government refâ—sing â—l true brotherly familiarity society with them So you Now brother Pryn I confesse I am one of thâ—se whom you call Independents and did you ever observe any such supercisious strangâ—nesse of â—â—râ—â—age in me towards you and other of your and my friend 〈…〉 e zealous against Independents then your selfe â—s youchange us withall Have there not been many interchangeable invitations between you and me with loving acceptations whereby we have enjoyed mutuall society in all friendly and brotherly entertainment saving â—â—ill some quarrels about 〈…〉 way but ever parting friends And more frequent it had been had your occasions and sometimes mine owne permitted And neither at this day since these youâ— invectives came forth though they were no small griefe to me and that even for your sakâ— am I become a greater stranger to you either in face or affection then I was be oâ—â— For I am so perswaded of your good nature thar did you truly epprehend and dive into the mystery of Christs Kingly government in his Churches and Children certainly you would never have thus sharpened and imbittered your style against your brethren the Lord open your eyes to see it But however brother either be more moderate in censuring or else censure not at alâ— without juâ—â— cause But we exclude say you as good or better then our selvs from communion and Church-society with us Surely it may be so but brother we exclude them not but they exclude themselves And you give the reason because they wil not submit to the Churches government But it doth not hence follow that wee therefore deem either our selves so transcendeâ—tly holy as you say or others altogether unworthy But brother we esteem the government of Christs Church so holy as we cannot think them fit to be admitted be they never so good that think so slightly of the way and of them that walk in it that they refuse to agree to walk in this way with the people of God Would you admit of a member into your family who
an eye to the peoples manners and how they stand affected When the Lord Cromwell had set forth the Primmer or Psalter without the Letany all the Popishly affected which were not a few could not be quiet till they had cried up the Letany again into its old place So as in sine through the love of superstition in the people and the love of the world in the Prelats alias the Reformers many of whom afterwards God reformed and purged in the flames of Martyrdome such a Reformation was set up as for Church-government and Discipline onely translating the Popes headship and setting it upon the Kings shoulders was the very same with that which was in Henry 8. his dayes and is at this day in Rome and did so well sute with the Civill Government and manners of the people that a Generall Law was enacted for the ratifying of that Prelaticall Government and Discipline which hath bred such manners in the people generally to this day as if another Reformation shall be set up wherein the peoples manners shall be no lesse looked upon then in the former as you here doe more then seeme to plead for I can conjecture if not certainly divine what a Reformation both for Church-Government and Discipline your Church of England is like to have For if you aske the Prelaticall party consisting of multitudes of their Priests and of their ignorant and prophane people together with all the Kings Army they will all with one voyce and vote roare it out at the Canons mouth W will have the Bishops Church-government and Discipline continued without alteration If ye aske the ordinary Protestant professors at large they cry No no not that but we will have such a Church-government as under which we may injoy no lesse libertie for our manners then we had under the Prelates But you referre us to the serious debate of a Nationall Counsell Synod Parliament But yet give us leave to put a vast difference between all these and the Scripture Christs owne voyce If they truely informe us of the minde of Christ in the Scripture we will blesse God for it but yet if we can find out the mind of Christ by his immediate voyce we dare not suspend our beliefe and practise of it until we have it at the second hand from men And should we waite never so long upon the issae of their debate commended unto us to be such as men conceive to be agreeable and consâ—nant to Gods Word yet for as much as we dare not * pinne our soules upon mens sleeves as not knowing as one said whither they might possibly carry them therefore we must examine all mens determinations in matters of Religion by * searching the Scriptures and laying every thing to this line and rule For the Bereans are commended as the more noble in that they examined diligently and daily even the Apostles doctrine by the Scriptures and much more are wee to try the spirits of men that are not Apostles and so not immediately inspired by the Holy Ghost with infallibility of truth as never any Generall Councell after the Apostles hath been So as you know how miserably and shamefully Generall Councels have erred The first Councell of Nice consisting of 318. Bishops how did they all agree to bring in a Doctrine of Devills prohibiting Priests marriage had not one Confessor Paphnutius by evidence of Scripture and reason cryed it downe and so swayed the whole Councell And you know very well that Generall Councels as well as Nationall have not infallibilitie of judgement in all things And it cannot be unknowne to you that even this Assembly of Divines are of different judgements about Church-governement and Discipline nor have they perhaps had so much time since their being under the Prelacy as to be throughly informed of the way of Churches commonly called Independent but that many of them may possibly gaine much more knowledge of it by spending some more time and study in it But Sir besides all this you seeme to lead them such a way should they follow you as would necessarily bring them into an inevitable and inextricable errour in case they should elect such a publick Church-government Rites Discipline as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word to the Lawes Government under which we live and manner of the people For if they looke upon the manner of the people which they must needs finde to bee for the most part very loose to speake nothing of Ignorants and Popish Malignants some men might conceive that such a Church-government and Discipline were most sutable as doth most comply with and give some indulgence to such manners as cannot easily be brought to enter in at the straite gate and narrow way that leads into Christs kingdome And whatsoever Church-government and Discipline comes not full home in all things to the word of God is not that which is consonant thereunto and so not pleasing unto God and the more consonant it is to Gods Word the more strict and holy it will be found to be and so the lesse consonant to the common prophane manners of this Nation at this day Worthy of our observation is that of the Lord to the Prophet Jeremy Jere. 15. 19. If thou take forth the pretions from the vile thou shalt be as my mouth let them returne unto thee but returne not thou unto them Whereupon the most learned Interpreter as the learned Beza constantly styles him Calvin among many other excellent observations on this place thus concludeth Summa est veritatem Dei non debere flecti ad hominum arbitrium quae Deus non mutatur ita nec verbum ejus ullam varietatem admittit The summe is That the truth of God ought not to bee bended according to mans will or conceit because God is not mutable so neither doth his Word admit of any change Now the forme of Church-governement and Discipline laid downe in the New Testament is a Doctrine of Christ and no more alterable according to the varieties of mens customes and manners in all nations and ages then the Gospel it selfe is which the Apostle would not have to bee altered into another Gospel though another Gospel cannot bee as neither another kingdome of Christ another Church-governement another Church-discipline ought not to be but that alone which we find in Gods Word which must not bee reduced or conformed as a nose of waxe to which the Papists as Hosius and Pighius doe compare the Scripture to the fashions of worldly governments Rom. 12. 2. and popular manners but these must be conformed to the Scripture Hence it may appeare how rough your conclusion of this Question is if to such a generall law as you propose all particular Churches members of this Kingdome and Nation should not yeeld to be actually obliged in point of conscience and Christianitie and readily to submit thereunto and no waies to seeke an exemption from it under paine of being guiltie
ANSVVER To Mr. PRYNNES second Book MY deare Brother to your twelve new Interrogatories I present you with a new Answer I call it new because I shall cull out such passages as I find new or not so much insisted on in your former twelve Which as they are fewer so I shall be the shorter for as much as in the former I have been the larger But brother I find not that in your Book which you pretend in your Title to wit the Unmasking of Independency Nor can we expect it of you for in your Proeme you say that the Independents have not dogmatically and in direct termes discovered the full truth of what they assert If not what kind of visage will you discover when you have taken off the mask Surely by your handling of the matter you mean to unmask some hags face such as pleased the Painter Which when you have done it will appeare to all the wise-hearted that it is not the face of Independency as wherein there shines forth such a beauty as it seemeth you yet never saw In your Preface to the Courteous Râ—â—der you say We politickly conceale the principall grounds and more deformed parts of our Church-Platforme for feare of miscarrying Good brother who told you soâ— Remember your own lesson before Judge not But indeed had you reproved us yet in love and meeknesse for not setting forth more fully a compleat Modell of this fabrick or spirituall house it had been something Which yet if it were done you would not impute it to policy that it was not sooner done But when it is exactly done you will find no deformed parts at all in it but contrariwise a greater beauty then in that famous Temple that Solomon built as being the spirituall Temple of Jesus Christ so as I am sorry you are put to the paines of pumping out our determinations as you say by your Questions When as you should rather find it as a fountaine flowing forth in the streets But brother how doe you write by Question not decision as you say when your Questions prove to be decisions as your former twelve are And what doe you els but refute upon bare conjectures Andabatarum more pugnando as those at blind-man-buff For your Charges upon us are very sore and as many doe say bitter so farre beyond reason as you are not able truly to say Wherefore For your first Question Whether the Independent forme of Church-government be anywhere to be found in the Old or New Testament this we have resolved in your former Twelve Questions so as this is no new Interrogatory unlesse you put the greater difference between Questions and Interrogatories And though it were in no antiquitie which yet we have shewen before neverthelesse if it be found in the Scripture as there it is whatsoever clouds of the mastery of iniquitie have darkened the lustre of it for so many hundred yeares yet this cannot plead prescription against it For if Nullum tempus occurrit Regi then surely no tract of time can prescribe against the law of Christs kingdome which we finde upon sacred record But where say you Why brother this House of God wherein Christ rules as King stands upon so many Principles as so many maine pillars not to be shaken As 1. It is a spirituall house whose onely builder and governour is Christ and not man 2. It is a spirituall kingdome whose onely King is Christ and not man 3. It is a spirituall Republick whose onely Law-giver is Christ and not man 4. It is a spiritual Corporation or body whose onely head is Christ and not man 5. It is a Communion of Saints governed by Christs Spirit not man's 6. Christs Church is a Congregation called and gathered out of the world by Christs Spirit and Word and not by man These Principles are such as the Adversaries themselves of this kingdome of Christ cannot dare not deny And out of these Principles doe issue these Conclusions 1. That no man is the builder of this spirituall house 2. That no man nor power on earth hath a kingly power over this kingdome 3. That no earthly Law-givers may give Lawes for the government of this Republick 4. That no man may claime or exercise a headship over this Body 5. That no man can or ought to undertake the Government of this Communion of Saints Item That none are of this Communion but visible Saints Ergo a true visible Church of Christ cannot be defined or confined to a parochiall multitude Item â—hat that Government of this Communion is not extrinsecall but intrinsecall by the Spirit of the Word and by the Word of the Spirit 6. That men may not appoint limit constitute what Congregations of all sorts they please to be Churches of Christ as Nations and Parishes But you confesse in generall Christ to be the Builder the King the Law-giver the Head the Governour the Caller the Gatherer of his Churches If you doe you must approve of those Churches you call Independent as whereof Christ is the onely Builder King Law-giver Head Governour Caller and Gatherer If you doe not in denying Christ in these relations you deny Christ in his absolute Regalitie But in your Answer to your Antiquerist pag. 6. you doe in part grant Christ to be King internally in the soule which you say may passe for tolerable O brother No more but may passe for toleráble You that are so lâ—rge-â—earred to your friends are you so strait-laced to Christ Surely Brother Christ is the full and sole King raigning in the heart and conscience of every true beleever It were intolerable not to grant this in its full latitude But you absolutely deny Christs sole kingly Government externall over his Churches Brother this is no lesse Christs kingly Prerogative then the former Hee that is King over every part of the body must needs be King over the whole body It therefore Christ be the only King over every mans conscience so as no man nor power on earth may sit with him in this his Throne then consequently by the seâ—f-same reason must he by the Word of the kingdome as the only Law thereof exercise his kingly office over his Churches so as no humane power or law may intermeddle to prescribe rules for the government or forms of this spirituall House and Kingdome For otherwise if man should set up a form of Government over the Church of Christ to which all must conforme then of necessitie should man bâ— Lord over the couscience which is the highest presumption against the most High And then what mischiefs would followâ— What intolerable tyrannie over the conscience Then must your words ibid. come to passe If a moderated or regulated Epâ—scopacie the same with Presbyterio should by the Synods advice be unanimâ—usly established in Parliament as most consonant to the Scriptures and most agrerable to the Civill Government I shall readily submit unto it
And so your Argument by crossing shins with it selfe falleth to ground Again your Presbyteriall government hath neither best nor any sufficient warrant as wee judge in the New Testament no nor any warrant at all in Gods word But the true forme of Church-government hath both sufficient and without comparison best warrant in the Scripture And in truth whereas you oppose presbyteriall and Independent as you call it one against the other let me tell you that that which you call Independent is the onely true originall and primitive Presbyteriall Which Presbytery is proper and peculiar to every particular Church of Christâ— and is not a Presbytery collective of many Churches by way of jurisdiction one or many over each or of a Nationall Church as you terme it For neither of these can you find either in the New Testamens or in the Old In the old we read of one Church to wit that of the Nation of the Jewes But that whole Church was one intire congregation Act. 7. 38. they had one Church officer over all it is called the Tabernacle of the congregation in the singuler and they all assembled three times in the yeare at Jerusalem in the Temple where they offered Sacrifice and not else where So as the Church was a type of every particular Church of Christ under the New Testament as being both one intire Church and absolute subject to no other form of government but only that of the only Law-giver and Mediator Jesus Christ and no pattern of any such Nationall Church as you would have Every particular Church now consisting of visible Saints is under Christ as the onely Head King Governour Law-giver of it and so is subject to no other jurisdiction then that of Christ his Spirit his Word Were there none other particular Church in the world then one as that of Abrahams Family should it not be a compleat Church untill there were other Churches on whose jurisdiction it should depend though for ordinary Families they cannot have such a number as is requisite to make up a ministeriall body so are bound to unite to others for this end Wee hold communion and consociation of Churches for counsell in doubts and comfort in distresse but we deny any such combination of Churches as whereby the true liberty of every particular Church is taken away And this communion of Churches doth no lesse if not more prevent Heresies Schismes Injustice then your Presbyteriall Nor can you shew reason to the contrary And yet would you have our Churches more perfect then those of the Apostles own planting and gathering as to bee altogether exempted from Heresies Schismes Injustice Did not the Apostle tell the Church of Corinth There must bee Heresies eve among you that they which are approved may be made manifest And could those Primitive Churches after the Apostles preserve themselves from Heresics How soone did the whole world groane and wonder that it was become an Arian And this within the fourth Century after the birth of Christ when the Churches were governed by the Bishops and their Presbyteries And how soone did the Kingdome of the Beast mount up to such a height as it overtopt all the Westerne Churches and brought them under his dominion And for our truly and properly Presbyterian Churches your Independents to which you deny expresse warrant in Scripture the whole New Testament is both an expresse and ample witnesse on our side All those particular Churches which the Apostles planted were all of absolute authority amongst themselves respectively and equall one of the other You can shew unto us no rule or example to the contrary That in Act. 15. is a transcendent and stands alone not to be paralleld and therefore very impertinently objected by many before you as wee shall have occasion to shew afterwards And for pattern in the Primative Churches after the Apostles we are not curious to seeke it in the corrupt current of succeeding ages when we find it the pure fountaine It appeares say the Centurists Cent 1. 7 Titâ—de consociatione Eccles. that the Government of Churches in the second hundreth yeare was almost popular every Church had equall power of ordaining or casting out if neede were those Ministers they had ordâ—ined with other things very materiall in that whole Title as also in the Title de Synodis privatis And for the best reformed Churches if in them we cannot finde that patterne so fully followed as the Scripture holds forth unto us wee cruve leave without prejudice to take it as wee finde it in the Word without the least variation And you may knowâ— in the beginning of Protestant Reformation could they so clearly see in the dawning as wee may now in the meridian if we will but open our eyes The reformed Churches have taken up one or other of them upon the matter the maine things we contend for 1. The Church of Holland receive none to the Table nor have a vote as a member of that Church but such as first give satisfaction to the Elderships and then to the Congregation and 2. have a forme of covenant propounded by them Secondly the French Churches exercise excommunication in their particular congregations though with liberty of appeale And this was the governement of the Primitive Churches in the 2d hundreth yeare as appeares Cent. 2. c. 7. Tit. de Synodis but especially Tit. de consociatione Eccles. So as no long debate neede to be if but Christs word alone may take place without the necessary accommodation of humane Lawes Customes Manners of the people as you doe plead And lastly for appeales in case of Injustice you know brother that if injustice be done in any civill matter if redresse may not be had by the mediation of the Church whereof the parties are members then the Law is open there to appeale for justice And if it be about the Churches censure for some miscarriage of a member towards the Church or any member thereof if the censure bee unjust the party grieved may desire to have his cause heard by some other Churches who may accordingly deale with their Sister-church to require a brotherly account of the whole businesse as is the duty of all the Churches in such cases And if it be in matter of opinion here the appeale lies principally and in the first place to the Scripture as the supreme Judge and if the things be obscure too hard for that Church to resolve by the Scripture then to call in the helpe of other Churches for their best information And in summe brother there is no case can fall out in any Church which hath not as many helpes by a free communion of Churches wherein every Churches peculiar liberties and priviledges are preserved as they ought to be as any you can name to bee in your obligatory combination of Churches wherby the liberty of each Church is by coÌ„mon consent sold over to others by which it ceaseth now to be a free Church
that even above the Apostle John himselfe with other like sutable practises This Mistery growing up and spreading mightily by degrees after the Apostles were dead and so prevailing as a generall deluge over the face of the earth as nothing could bee seene but Diocesan Bishops seas overflowing every where Therefore were there never such Churches extant But suppose there were no examples to be found of it in Church Story which yet we have proved the contrary neverthelesse you know brother when a mans evidences of lands are lost there be publicke Records as the Rowles of Chancerie where they may be found againe And if there they be found will you not allow them because the man cannot otherwise shew them Now we have the sacred Scripture where our Evidences are safely recorded Suffice it then that there we shew them The contrary opinion doth manifestly establish Traditions unwritten as the Papists doe And to give the Reader some intimation how the Churches of Christ came in time and that in short time after the Apostles to lose their liberties I crave leave of you to note that passage in Ambrose who lived within the fourth Century upon 1 Tim. 5. Synagoga postea Ecclesia c. The Iewes Synagogue and afterwards the Christian Church had Elders without whose counsell nothing was done in the Church Which by what neglect it grew out of use I know not unlesse is were perhaps the slâ—ath or rather pride of the Teachers whilst alone they would seeem to be some body So Ambrose the Bishop of Millan confessed I confesse I cannot shew many such instances or records as perhaps your selfe in your multifarious reading may observe But this one from such a reverend and ancient author too of pious memory may serve instead of many considering also that this is the greater rarity and antiquity and much to be wondred at how it escaped the expurgatorie Index by those that were the first fathers of the Mystery of Iniquity that they did not quite expunge this record also that not a pin of the old patterne should remaine Now that the Church this Ancient there speaketh of was particular Congregation answerable to the Synagogue governed by the Counsell of its own Elders cannot be denyed Whereby all men may cleerly see in how short a time the Governement of Churches instituted by Christ and his Apostles came to bee changed from being free Churches to become servile and subject to the usurpation of the greater the Prelates and their clergie now making up the Church as if the congregations themselves were no Churchs as being stripped of all their Rights and Priviledges yea and of Crist their King his Kingdome now being turned into an Oligarcy or Oligarchill Tyranny mixed of two of the worst forms of Government though you seem to put Oligarchy in the ranke of the the best but I suppose you would have said instead of Oligarchy having named Monarchicall and Aristocraticall Democratie Oligarchy being Heterogeneall to the other two But enough of this The seventh Question Thus reduced Those Churches which do not conforme their Church-government to some one or other publike forme of Civill Government dividing themselves into many Parochiall Churches Dioceses Provinces but doe gather Churches not out of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the Chiristian faith and do admit them into the Church by way of Covenant no one example or direct Scripture Reason or Authority can be produced to satisfie conscience of the lawfulnesse of them But such are the Independent Churches they do not conforme as afore Therefore conscience cannot be satisfied of the lawfulnesse of them The Argument or Question containes many branches scarce reducible to one head but I have bundled them in one coard as well as I could. And for answer first this Question is coincident with all that went before and so is already in that respect answered Secondly Your parallell betwixt the civill association and Ecclesiastick is not grounded on Scripture for neither God taught neither the Churches practised any such necessarie union and dependance of one Church on another though they might have done it and had need of it as being in times of persecution which hindered it not no more then it doth in France now 2. You confidently affirm that all Ecclesiasticall Histories testifie so much which is manifestly untrue as hath been shewed before 3. Though churches springing out of other churches had dependence on them what is this to churches that are far distant one from another and never had such a ground of relation one to another Besides the Harmonie of confessions which you quote for you though I finde not that in those places they say any thing to the point yet Sect. 11. cap. of the Keyes that the Keyes are committed to each particular even the least Ecclesiasticall Society Thirdy Christs true churches here on earth are not to be * limited to this or that place as because there are so many Parishes Dioceses Provinces in a civill State therfore those must be so many fixed Parocihall Diocesan Provinciall churches And here Brother Prynne would reduce tanquam ex postliminio the Provinciall Diocesan Parochiall church Government to the same forme it had before Would you have the Provinciall Arichbishops with their Diocesan Bishops and Parochiall clergie or Priests set up again For a Prouince hath relation to its Provinciall and a Diocese to its Diocesan and a Parish to speak in the old Dialect to its Parish-Priest Da veniam verbo And as for division of Provinces Dioceses and Parishes into so many churches you know where and when it began For in the yeer 267. Dyonisius Bishop of Rome made this division which division turned the churches into a Babylonish confusion when now all that dwelt together in every Parish and so in every Diocese who ever they were Tag and Rag must make up a church as so many members do one body whereas the churches planted by the Apostles were called and gathered out of the wide world where the Word of God came and took place So as not every citie became a church but so many as were called in every citie Paul writes not to all in Corinth but to the church there consisting of the Saints only But you object the gathering of churches not of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the christian faith of which forme of congregating churches you say you could never discern example or any direct Scripture to satisfie conscinces We would gladly say Amen to that assertion that the whole Nation is christian established in the faith but if not you dispute ex falso supposito May it please you then brother to take notice of the example both of John Baptist and of Christ himself and of the Apostles who * all of them did call and gather christian churches out of the Jewes church which might suffice to satisfie any mans conscience in this point and so
ordaining supplying instituting new Rites Orders Canons for the Churches peace and welfare I answer to the Proposition 1. That the Apostles themselves had no other libertie to doe any thing about the calling planting ordering and regulating of Churches but what they had immediarely given them by Christ and his Spirit 2. This liberty so given them reached no further then to those things onely which were given them in charge and which they accordingly as faithfull Stewards did practise concerning the Churches Even as Christ himselfe being the Son of God and set over his house was faithfull in all things doing nothing but what he had by speciall Commission and Command from the Father So as if the Son himselfe God blessed for ever took not the liberty to himself to doe what himselfe pleased as Mediator though as the Sonne he thought it no robbery to be equall with God the Father but did every thing as he had received commandment from him how much lesse have the servants of God any liberty to doe what pleaseth them but that and those things alone which they have in command from their Master If therefore they who prosesse to succeed the Apostles in their severall generations will challenge the same liberty which the Apostles had and used about the Churches of God they must first of all shew us their immediate Commission from Christ as the Apostles had Secondly They must all shew us that what they doe in Church-matters under colour and pretence of Apostolicall liberty is none other but what they have by expresse command from Christ by his Spirit And thirdly because they are not able to shew this they must use their liberty no further then the lists and limits of Scripture doe permit which holds forth an exact and perfect rule for all precisely to observe without the least variation As knowing that severe law of God often used in Scripture and wherewith as with a bounder-stone the whole Book of God is closed up and that with a solemne protestation of Christ himselfe If any man shall adde unto these things God shall adde unto him the plagues that are written in this book And if any man shall diminish ought thereof God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the Holy Citie But some will haply object This is meant not in point of Church-government Discipline Rites Ceremonies as left to mans liberty to ordaine adde supply institute according to the diversity of the lawes and customes of every Nation but in matter of Doctrine Story and Prophecy To which I answer though sufficiently noted before and now in one word if God were so exact about the forme of the Tabernacle a type of Christs Church under the Gospell to have all things observed according to the Patterne even unto the least pin what reason can any reasonable man give why Christ the same Law-giver and patterne it selfe should be lesse carefull over his Church in the New Testament so as to leave it at six and seven to the liberty of all Kingdomes and Nations of the world to set up in the Church what Government Discipline Rites Ceremonies Canons they pleased upon what pretence soever as for the Churches peace and welfare Hath not the opening of this one sluce let in such an Inundation of all manner of humane inventions in this kind as hath wel-nigh drowned the whole world in all manner of superstition and errour Therefore my deare brother Prinne assure your selfe not all the wits not all the learning in the world will be able to assert this your assertion but that it must of necessity fall to around with its owne weight and there brother let it lie or father die and bury it there whence it came All that Christ appointed is exactly to be followed though Christ was not so â—â—act in circumstantials under the Gospell because 1. That was a typicall and figurative worship 2. Christ now looks more to substantialls Joh. 4. 24. wherein he is more strict 1 Cor. 5. And where you say that as in the Apostles times Christians multiplied so also their Churches Church-Officers and their Church-Government Discipline varied Consider that here was no variation of the Rule but by degrees the rule of Church-government and Discipline was perfected not varied The Temple was seven yeares in building first hewing squaring then erecting stone after stone timber after timber each in his proper place here was no variation of the frame and forme of the Temple all this while but the worke went up day by day till it came to perfection according to the patterne in writing given to David by the Spirit Even so while the spirituall Temple is framing the daily goings up of it by order after order and rule after rule is no variation but a graduall tending to perfection till all be finished as we now see the whole frame of Church-government for all true Evangelicall Churches so compleated in the New Testament as nothing under the paine aforesaid may either be diminished or added to it And the same Orders are prescribed to all the Churches So ordaine I in all Churches saith the Apostle 1 Cor. 7. 17. So for the collection for the Saints and for the first day of the weeke for publick meetings as before the same order he gives to the Church of Corinth which he doth for the Churches of Galatia 1 Cor. 16. 1 2. So Officers chosen and ordayned in every Church Act. 14. 23. Tit. 1. 5. 7. So as if one Church for the smalnesse of it have fewer Officers and another Church for the largenesse of it more in number as the Church in Jerusalem had need of seven Deacons both for the magnitude of the Congregation and the multitude of the poore therein Act. 6. yet this makes no variation in the forme of Church-government as differing one from another either for substance or circumstance saving onely socundum magis minus as a little man is a man as well as the tallest man In a word those Arguments which you by way of derision set downe in your owne forme of words with their Ergoes for as much as they are of your own devising I therefore leave them with you to consider better of them Onely one I cannot passe by without wrong to Christ to his word to his Spirit to his Apostles Every man say you in his Infancy is borne destitute of Religion of the use of speech reason understanding faith legs c. Ergo He ought to continue so when he is growne a man Yet this is the maine Argument of some Independents say you O brother Of what Independents As whence this Argument Because they hold that in nothing they ought to swerve from the exact Rule Gods Word for the government of Churches And doe you compare the Scripture as it was in the Apostles time to a child in his Innocency destitute c So as if we will not transgresse the bounds of Scripture for
Reason Because it is Antichristian to deny Iesus to bee the Christ that is the onely King Priest and Prophet of his Church Hee is an Antichrist that denieth any of these three Offices But to deny Christ to be the onely King of his Church is to deny him in one of his Incommunicable Offices And they thus deny Iesus to bee the Christ that place man with Christ in his throne that set humane Lawes and Customes of all Nations cheek by jowle with the Word of God Here Jesus is denied to be the Christ I could here adde many more reasons to those but these may suffise that you may see there bee some Reasons which your Independents can produce and those so solid as the Gates of hell shall not prevaile against But say you if we thus claime exemption from such binding Decrees of men in the matters of Christ and that in point of conscience then may also Papists Anabaptists and all other â—ects claim the like exemptiens upon the like grounâ—s Brother for that I hope you will put a difference between orthodox Churches and heâ—erodox But I say againe for any mans conscience bee it never so erroneous as that of Papists yet certainly the conscience of such simply considered in it selfe nor you nor any man in the world hath any thing to doe further then to instruct and admonish and labour to enforme and iectifie enforce it you may not But shall we tolerate Popery and so idolatry in our Land I answer â—t is one thing to tolerate Popery and Idolatry publickly in a land and another to tolerate a man in his Conscience Magistrates may not tolerate open Popery and Idolatry to be set up in the land but the conscience oâ— a Papist they are no masters or judges of If the Civill Magistrate see any of Gods Commandements actually violated hee beareth not the sword for naught evill actions he must punish but hee hath no power over the conscience of any to punish a man for that so long as he makes no open breach of Gods Commandements or the just lawes of the Land And so in the rest And brother in your twelfth Question you confesse so much reproving but how justly you Independents for censuring the very hearts and spirituall estates of others and alleadging that Scripture that forbids men to judge because God onely knows mens hearts Now brother that which you deny to others as to bee judges of mens hearts and spirituall estates why will you either assume it to your selfe or attribute it to others by placing them in Christâ— throne and thereby displacing Christ himselfe As the Apostle saith Who art thou that judgest anothers servant To his Master he standeth or falleth Much more who art thou that judgest Gods servant And ver. 10. And why dost thou judge thy brother Or why dost thou set at â—aught thy brother We shall all stand at the Iudgement seâ—t of Christ Christ therefore is the â—ole Iudge oâ— every mans conscience even hee alone that is the Iudge of quicke and dead And brother let me put it to your Conscience Doe you think it equall that either your conscience should be a rule of mine or mine of yours And if no one mans conscience may be the rule of anothers certaâ—nly neither may all the mens consciences in the world be the Iudge of any one mans 2 How ever we finde neither rule example nor reason from Scripture to force men to Religion originally ye the Râ—bins say if man kept the seven precepts of Noah hee might not bee forced further The eleventh Question Concerning this question it containeth in it nothing but grievous invectives against the way you call Independent You call it a Seminary of Schismes and dangerous divisions in Church State So did Tertullus the â—ews Advocate against Paul charge him for a pestilent fellow and a mover of sedition among al the Iews throughout the world Acts 24. 5. You pretend to ponder it in the ballance of Scripture or right reason but you neither shew us Scripture not right reason to ballance it in You call it a Floodgate to let in an Inundation of herefies errors sects libertinisme and lawlesnesse without means of suppressing them when introduced For this you bring Mr. Williams his bloody tenent Now suppose him or his booke hereticall will you make the way of Christ so too There was one Judas a traitor shall therefore all the rest of the Apostles or their Apostolicall calling be so too You alleadge also Anabaptisticall â—ntinomian hereticall Athâ—ishicall opinions as of the Soules mortality Divorce at pleasure will you therefore father all these upon Châ—ists Kingly government In Luthers time â—undry heresies sprung up was Luther therefore either the cause or occasion of them Doe we not know that Mothes are bied in the parest cloth And the dunghills send forth strongest savours when the Sunne shines hottest Is either the cloth the proper cause of the moth or the Sunne of the stinking vapour Never greater errors have bin then since the Gospell hath clearly shined forth True it is indeed that thâ—se divisions and diversities of opinions are with bleeding hearts to be bewailed But shall the Gospell of the Kingdome beare the burthen of all This were as with the Christians in Rome in Neroes time when any judgement of God fell upon the City he would still imâ—â—â—e it to the Christians and punish them for it But we are taught better When the good Husband-man sowed pure wheat in in his field the enemy came and superseminaâ—ed tares shall wee therefore blame the wheat because the tâ—res come up with them But that you impuâ—e to this way libertinisme and lawlesnesse Good brother consideâ— are we Libertines or are wee lawlesse Nay may wee not herein plead for our selves that in all things we indeavouâ— to conforme ouâ— selves wholly to the law of Christâ— and if many thing we offâ—nd juâ—â—ly any just law oâ—â—hâ— lâ—nâ— wee reâ—uâ—e not to suffer Only brother leâ— not â—aâ— Impeâ—iall Edict be revived that if any confessed themselves to be Christians they should be put to death so such as you call 〈…〉 should for this very name suffer As Tertullian said Nomen proâ—â—â—iâ—ine when the very name of Christian was taken for a crime â—nd for meanes of suppressing errors what meanes could suppresse those many errors that sprung up to the successive ages oâ— the Church Was not the word of God the onely meanes and not humane power yea humane power is as well a meanes to maintain heresies as to suppresse them You know what Constantine and his sonne did to maintain the Arrian heresie And orthodox Independent Churches are as good means as any other together with the care and countenance of the Magistrate if it may be had to defend them and inable them to send forth labourers without which the Presbytery will bee as barren breast and womb as any other The twelfth Question The sundry passages of
equity Now in your premises there is neither reason nor equity because no truth in them 2. Christ hath not delegated his Kingly office to any Princes Magistrates Parliaments to set up any form of worship or Church-government of their devising or conceiving no more then hee did to all or any of those you reckon up in the Old Testament I pray God give you a better understanding in this mystery of Christ and godly sorrow for these things Take then the counsell of this great King Bee wise therefore and understand and kisse this King this Sonne of God by obeying him in all that he saith as being not onely the onely King but the onely Prophet of his Church as before whom whoso heareth not IN ALL THINGS shall even be cut off from his people But how then doe you say This is a part of Christs Kingly office not Priestly or Propheticall to set up a government and hee hath not communicated those other offices to Princes and Parliaments Whereas Christ doth in all things regulate his Kingly office by his Prophetical office And again how say you Christ hath not given his Kingly office to Ministers but onely his Priestly and Propheticall and yet you make an Assembly of Ministers as Rector Chori to be the leaders and guides to a Form of Reformation and that necessarily And denying such to bee Kings or to have a Kingly office you exclude them out of the Albe of those faithfull ones whom Christ hath made a * Royall Priesthood even * Kings and Priests to God his Father But so much of this second Interrogatory The third Interrogatory Touching this 1. Wee assume not the power to gather Churches but being sent or called to preach the Word of the Kingdome thereby people thus called of God come to be gathered into Church-fellowship and so by consent doe chuse their Officers 2. Such as are thus called to acknowledge Christ their onely King were not begotten to this acknowledgment by such Ministers as you speak of who deny disclaime and preach against Christs Kingly government over mens consciences and Churches So as such a conversion as you speak of comes not home to whole Christ and such with their converters doe deny Christs Kingly government what kind of converts call you these Or at least and best they are converted but in part and that main thing wanting to wit Christs Kingly office they come up to by the preaching thereof 3. Such Ministers when they set up Christs government may being agreed upon by all sides have those Parishioners again that for want of it at the first went from them 4. Our solemne Vow and Covenant obligeth us not to any thing that is prejudiciall to the authority of Gods word and the libertie of a good conscience considering how Churches are gathered out of all the world not this place nor that not this house nor that but out of * every nation such as fear God and * out of every house the sons of peace out of * every Citie or Town all that receive the Gospel are called and gathered to Christ 5. Concerning Christian liberty in joyning to severall Churches as in the same house some to affect one some another you know what Christ saith Luke 12. 51 52 53. And it is God that perswadeth Iâ—phâ—t to dwell in the Tents of Shem. And brother all that noyse you make all along with extreame aggravations as Confusion Distraction implacable Contestations Schismes Tumâ—lts c. What are they but the very out-cries which the Prelats ever used for the crying and keeping up of their Hierarchy built upon the same sandy foundation This is well noted in the Harmony of Confessions Sect. 11. Confession of Ausburg These Senater-like Declamations though they be very plausible and incense the mindes of many against us yet they may be confuted by most true and substantiall arguments As All the Prophets and Apostles were true lovers of the peace and concord of Nations and people yet were they constrained by the commandement of God to warre against the Devils kingdome to preach heavenly doctrine to collect a Church unto God and the like And The true doctrine of God and his true worship must needs be embraced and received and all errors that tend to the dishonor of God must be abhorred and forsaken though all the world should break and fall down And much more there 6. Though we are fully perswaded by Gods Word and Spirit that this our way is Christs way yet wee neither doe nor dare judge others to be reprobates that walk not with us in it but we leave all judgement to God and heartily pray for them we our selves have been formerly ignorant of it therefore wee pitie others 7. Where you object that under pretence of Christian liberty whole Houses Parishes Counties may thus come to be divided into severall formes of Churches as some for the Presbyteriall some for the Hierarchicall and so cause Schismes and ruines or at least unavoidably subvert all ancient bounds of Parishes all setled maintenance for the Ministery by tythes c. Brother for Christian libertie who shall perswade the conscience or who hath power over it but he that made it even God the onely Judge thereof And for difference of mens judgements in points of Religion how can it be avoided And yet it followes not that upon such differences should come ruine to a State What serveth the Magistrate and the lawes of a civill State for but to keep the peace And as for Parishes will you allow no Churches but Parishes Or are Parishes originally any other but of humane politicke and civill constitution and for civill ends Or can you say that so many as inhabit in every Parish respectively shall bee a Church Should such Churches and Parishes then necessarily be Churches of Gods calling and gathering Are they not congregations of mans collection constitution and coaction meerly What Churches then And as for Tithes what Tithes I pray you had the Apostles Such as be faithfull and painfull Ministers of Christ he will certainly provide for them as when hee sent forth his Disciples without any purse or provision he asked them Lacked you any thing They said Nothing Surely the labourer is worthy of his hire And as for Ministers maintenance by Tithes I referre you to the judgment of your learned brother Mr. Selden And as for your Independent Ministers they plead no other maintenance then the New Testament holds forth yet not denying the Magistrate and State a power to appoint maintenance for the preaching of the word as is done in New England to those that are not members of Churches And where you charge them for having the faith of Christ in respect of persons as if they admitted the rich rather then the poore Brother I hope it is not so with others I am sure not so with me And lastly for your marginall young Interrogatories As 1. Of how many members