Selected quad for the lemma: nation_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
nation_n	call_v	church_n	national_a	2,044	5	11.4074	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91884	A moderate answer to Mr. Prins full reply to certaine observations on his first twelve questions: vvherein all his reasons and objections are candidly examined and refuted. A short description of the congregationall way discovered. Some arguments for indulgence to tender consciences modestly propounded. By the same author.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?, attributed name.	1645 (1645)	Wing R1676; Thomason E26_20; ESTC R13022	43,033	54

the meetings of Hereticks and Schismaticks who separate themselves c. Though your passion would not yet your charity might have given us better language You and your Party are very full of these tearms though you nor they ever define what Schisme or Heresie is We desire and challenge you to tell us what Heresies we have broached in these Conventicles In what Fundamentalls do we differ from you which is Heresie What Acts against the power of godlinesse can you manifest against us What Treasons have we plotted against the Parliament in our meetings Should I call you Heretick and Schismatick c. because your judgement is Presbyteriall would you take it well The Lord learn you meeknesse and a more sober Spirit not to tax so highly and slander so insufferably unlesse you make it out that we are such To the eighth he saith I answer negatively and well I may My first Answer was that the nationall Church of the Jews cannot be a pattern for us now because the Covenant of the Gospel is not made with any one particular nation but to all in every nation that beleeve you have no promise nor Prophesie of any nation to be holy to God but the Jews when they shall be called again To which he Replyes 1. That the Independents have not the least Precept or Example for a solemn Covenant but in the old Testament and Church of the Israelites and that no private Congregationall but publike nationall Covenant prescribed by the supream temporall Magistrate and Assembly yea the principall Precepts and Presidents for sanctifying the Sabbath publike or private Fasts you likewise derive from the old Testament and that Church Why should not therefore their nationall Church be a pattern for us c. To which I Answer First For the Covenant we hold not that such a formall Covenant constitutes a Church this is enough that there be an union whether by Covenant explicite or implicit or consent that is certain the Union is Morall as all other must be that constitute a Policie yet for that he saith there is no Precept or pattern but in the old Testament for a Covenant it s answered Secondly That its ground enough for such a practise the Covenant not being Ceremoniall but Morall and that which of necessity goes to such a Constitution it did not constitute the Church as nationall but as a Church Indeed the Covenant was nationall because the Church was so but that was accidentall It s no part of the essence of a Covenant that it should be nationall that doth accedere to it as it constitutes such a Policie and the same or which is equivalent must constitute a particular Church the same formall Constitution that was in that Church as a Church must be in every Church also and though the dispensation in Churches be different yet the same constitutive Principles remain in all For that he saith the principall Precepts for a Sabbath and Fasts we take out of the old Testament and therefore why should not their 〈…〉 Church be a pattern for us to imitate as well as their nationall Covenant Sabbaths c. I Answer We keep the Sabbath onely as it is a Morall Precept in the Decalogue not as peculiar to the Jews for where there was any ceremonialnesse in it as the seventh day it s changed among us and for Fasts there is as great equity that when we have displeased God we should solemnly humble our selves before him But that the Church was Nationall was meerly accidentall and he might as well argue and it will as rightly follow that there must be but one visible Church in all the world and that one nation as the Jews were for if he argue from one part which is accidentall he must argue from another that is so likewise Besides if this be a property of a Church that it be nationall then there is no Church but what is nationall if that did convenire to the Church of the Jews as a Church that it was nationall then it doth so unto every Church and the same may be said that there was but that one Church in the world then therefore there is but one now Many such absurdities will necessarily follow such an Argument To that that I say that the Covenant of the Gospel is made with no particular nation but with every one in every nation that beleeves and that there is no Prophesie or Promise of any one nation to be converted but the Jews He Answers That this Reason is both absurd and false the Covenant extending not only to particular persons but to all nations c. And for this he quotes many Scriptures in the Margent the summe of which is contained in Psal 2. 8. Ask of me and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance and the utmost parts of the earth for thy possession And that in Esay 2. 2 3. The mountain of the Lord shall be exalted on the top of the mountains and all nations shall flow to it Therefore God hath made a Covenant with particular nations to be Churches To which I answer 1. That if these Texts be to be understood so Jesus Christ never had a Church since the dissolution of the Jewish State for there hath been no nation in the world yet wholly given to Christ none that may be called a holy nation as yet that Prophesie is not fulfilled what may be hereafter I know not Secondly You may as well say that the Covenant of the Gospel is made with all nations and that all nations are or shall be Churches to Christ for so the words run in the generall I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance and the utmost parts of the earth c. and all nations shall flow in unto the Church and become such Thirdly That in Psalm 2. is not meant of God covenanting with any people but it shews that all the world is in subjection to Christ and that the Father hath given him all rule and power from one end of the earth to the other and the following words imply so much for he saith He shall rule them with a rod of iron now it s not meant so much of the Church as of the Kings and Potentates and great men of the world that band themselves against Christ Christ rules not his Church with a rod of iron but with a golden Scepter and if all nations were given to Christ that is really converted and in Covenant there would not be so many Potentates Kings and great ones to band themselves against Christ and his Church and for that place Esay 2. That all nations shall flow into the Church when once it s exalted it s no more then what was fulfilled in Acts 2. where men of every nation under heaven beleeved and so is the word commonly used for some of all nations and the utmost that can be said of them and all the other places brought is but this that when Jews and Gentiles

shall all be called together the most part of the nations shall beleeve and come to Christ in 1 Pet. 2. 9. which he quotes The Apostle calls the scattered Saints a holy nation yet they were no nation but scattered thorow many nations and these Scriptures are meant of the multiplicity of beleevers that shall be brought under Jesus Christs Dominion and these Texts do no more prove a nationall Church or any one nation wholly converted then that Text Go preach the Gospel unto every nation Matth. 28. proves that every nation shall therefore be converted to Christ and they rather prove that all nations shall be reall Saints then that any one nation or more shall be so Besides if the Church be nationall every one of the nation is a member and there can be no censures of Excommunication rightly administred for there can be no Excommunication but either by cutting the person off from this life or else banishing which are for destruction not edification for whiles he lives in the Kingdom he is a member and the bounds and limits of the nation are the bounds and limits of the Church Againe of what Nation in the world can it be said which is said of the Church you are a peculiar and holy people nay are not all the Nations corrupted few or none in the most imbracing the Gospel England hath been accounted as Protestant and as refined a Nation as any hath been for Doctrine yet how many vipers hath it bred in its own bowels who ever have been more wicked then they where have the Saints been more persecuted then here Againe if Nations may be Churches there will be no distinction between the World and the Church all will be Saints and as far members of the visible Church as the best Saints To that I say that he cannot shew any Nation every Member whereof is qualified sufficiently to make up a Church unlesse wee will take in Drunkards Whoremongers c. and this cannot be avoided in a Nationall Church he answers that he daces not be wiser then his Lord and Master who informes him that there will and must be alwaies in the visible Church on earth goats among the sheep ch●ffe amongst the wheat c. I answer 1. That there will be goats is most certaine but that there must be is neither necessitate praecepti nor med●j Christ never commanded it neither is it of absolute necessity for the Saints can live be built up without any mixture of such society is it a delight and pleasure to Christ to see goats among his sheep in his own fold what need then this must be so confidently put in Secondly goats chaffe bad fish are taken for hypocrites as well as profane men and in these places they are only to be taken so as for example that place Mat. 13. 24. of the good seed and the tares which he quotes by tares are not meant profane persons but hypocrites 1. the * Scutietus in obse vat in Mat. Pasor Lexicon in ●…b Word expresseth no more tares as Historians observe are a weed like the wheat now profane men are no way like the Saints 2. if it be meant of profane men and Master Pryn take it of their being in the Church then all the censures of the Church are out off ipso facto for the Text saith expressely they must be let alone till the harvest that is the day of judgment so that no wicked man may be excommunicated or any censure passe upon him yea 3. it is plaine they are hypocrites they were discovered by none but the Angells yea 4. if you will needs take it of profane men the Text saith expressely that these were not in the Church but in the world the field is the world vers 38. whereas he saith he finds that in the Churches of Galathia Collosse Pergamus c. there were drunkards Epicures whoremongers c. I answer in general that I know no Churches openly taxt for any such grosse acts of sin in all the New Testament only the Church of Corinth abou the incestuous Corinthian which is spoken as a defilement and a blot upon them whereby they were corrupted and he therefore exhorts them to cast him out that they might be a new lumpe 1 Cor. 5. As for 1 Cor. 11. where the Apostle saith one is thirsty and another is drunke I think it not meant of that grosse act which we call drunkennesse but the same with that which is said of Joseph and his brethren Gen. 43. 5. they dranke and were merry they drank more freely then they ought at that time though it might be lawfull at another time but however though there were these in such Churches Yet First I speak of the first constitution of a Church and what Churches should be not what they are degenerated into Secondly they were most spirituall sins that were laid to the charge of the seven Churches and other Churches as that they lost their first love countenanced false teachers c. not such grosse acts of prophanesse as whoring c. Yet Thirdly what heavy and sad threatnings are there denounced by God against these if the continued in that estate and what judgment did follow for God is very tender of his worship and what is become of all these Churches now how greatly hath God been displeased with them the Jewes might not enter into marriage with the daughters of a strange Land much lesse might they admit them to ordinances among them unlesse really converted and made proselytes now such are all not visible Saints in the judgment of the Saints unto those that are really called and joine together in the ordinances and they ought to be as shye of those as they were of them whatever a Church rightly constituted may fall into by defection I speak not of but what they ought to be such as the word calls Saints which can hardly be given by any knowing Saint to the most part of men in England For that he asketh whether we have not drunkards cozeners usurers c. members of our Churches I answer we know none and we should thank Master Pryn if he could discover any such account him our reall friend in it For that he saith where was there ever a Church of all elected ones that is a state for heaven not for this world I answer there 's none saith a Church must be all of elect but of such as can be judged by the Saints to be elect If men be not saved it s not because the Church is deceived but themselves the Church goes only on these probable rules of judging by which the word prescribes the visible Church in Scripture is called Heaven often times as Mat. 25. 1. Heb. 12. 26. Mat 13. and in Esa 4. 5. its called glory to intimate that none should properly be of the Church but should go to Heaven and it s called the body of Christ none should be admitted as members of that body but

Then first why do you separate from them as no true Christians Answ I answer in generall We separate from none we know to be true Churches but if you mean by your true Church the whole bulk of the nation whom you call a Church we must needs separate from it for we acknowledge no such Church Yet Secondly Though we acknowledge not England as a nation to be a true Church yet we acknowledge many true Churches in England with whom yet we cannot communicate in Church Ordinances because of many personall defilements among them or yet purged out and if they would give us leave in our communion with them to professe against these corruptions which we think defile them we should not scruple communion with them You know that one may be a reall man yee so corrupted with diseases and sores that it may be dangerous to come nigh him or eat or drink with him Glad should we be to joyn with them if they were so reformed and that mixture taken away that as nigh as could be none but such as had a right to Christ might partake of the Ordinances untill then you must excuse us if though we think many to be true Churches we cannot actually communicate with them You tell us saith he that neither I nor any Synods nor this Synod is infallible c. Therefore men are not bound to obey their decrees on penalty of sin To which he answers onely by way of Querie May not you and your Independent Ministers erre as well others O yes surely therefore they arrogate not such a power to make Laws for others as for that of the Major Votes it s answered before How ever slight Master Pryn makes of this reason yet untill he hath answered he must give us leave to beleeve it For if Synods have power to binde the conscience it is either because they can enjoyn nothing but truth for truth onely binds the conscience and so are infallible or else because of their own power and authority I know no other ground for it Is this good Logick or Divinity saith he Good Ministers may and do erre in some points of Divinity therefore we will beleeve them in none In that you say true there is neither Logick nor Divinity but the Consequence as I draw it is this Ministers may erre therefore none are absolutely bound to beleeve every thing they say as Scripture and so to sin if they obey not for it s a certain truth not probable that binds the conscience Certain I say either as I apprehend it or in regard of it self if I am bound to beleeve what ever they say that are in authority who may erre then my conscience is subject to errour as well as truth for that which is commanded may be errour yea if I think it errour yet I must obey it and this holds in every thing as well as any thing for in all things that is commanded they who command are to go by their own ●…dgements of the truth of the thing that they enjoyn and their judgements may erre yet I am bound to obey and sin if I do not Nay suppose what they command to be a truth yet I think it an errour and so it is to me my conscience so judging yet I am bound to obey else I sin The Lord learn you and those in authority more tendernesse to Saints consciences that you may not put such a yoke upon our necks that neither we nor our fathers were able to bear FINIS

Independent from the Apostles Laws And if he put it as an Argument it runs thus if the Primitive Churches were subject to the Apostles Laws Rules then are all Churches now subject to a Presbytery and Synods the consequence we desire you to prove To whom should the Church be subject but to these who gave them the minde of God immediatly And here let the Reader observe that in this Head Master Pryn brought in many Arguments by way of absurdity upon the holding of the Primitive Churches to be a pattern of all other which it seems he is ashamed to mention and seeth now because of what was retorted on him that even they themselves are absurd For that he saith of my retorted That the Scriptures were written in the infancie of the Church therefore better might be written now that is a blasphemous conclusion It s confessed Yet had it as good a consequence as yours that the Churches now had a more perfect constitution then the Churches in the Apostles times because they were the first and as you call them Infant churches Whereas you say that the Scripture was writ by the Ancient of dayes who hath neither infancie nor imperfection as the Church hath I Answer That the Scripture was writ to be a Rule to perfect the Churches and the reason of the imperfection of the Churches is because it comes not up to that Rule and these Churches how ever you deemed them Infant had more knowledge of that Rule then ever any yet have had they receiving it more immediatly from Gods mouth then any since and their Churches must needs be more exactly constituted then any since who lived under the Apostles direction and had all they had from them as from God To that I say that he would make a Nationall Church more perfect then a Congregationall he saith he doubts not to averre it since warranted by direct * Eph. 4. 11 12 13. 2 Cor. 13. 9. Heb 6. 1. 1 Pet. 9. 10. Phil. 3. 12. 2. Heb. 13. 21. James 1. 4. Scriptures to the which I shall refer the Reader but to look over and then let him learn hereafter to be taken with Master Pryns Marginall Quotations what shaddow there is of proof in these Scriptures but a cast of an eye will discern But yet I answer Imperfection in any thing ariseth more or lesse either from the defect of something essentiall or which is to the beauty and ornament and glory of a thing or both then is a thing more or lesse perfect when either its essentialls are more perfect or that which accidentally goes to the adorning of it What there is more of these two in a Nationall Church then in a Congregationall I know not unlesse the mixt multitude of beleevers and profane persons growing up together into a bitter bulk of sin should adde either to the essence or ornament of a Church if God had seen so much beauty in Nationall-churches above others he would not have destroyed the Jewish State or at least would have stablished the like in the Gospel and would have converted the heathen Empires and have took them in to be a Church to him It was the mixt multitude which came out of Egypt with the Israelites that brought them to so much wo indeed were a whole nation such as could be judged reall Saints it would be a lovely sight to behold so many Churches walking together in the unity of the faith but that never hath been yet we know not what may be we have little hopes of it untill the Jews be called if then And which is a more perfect State a company of visible Saints joyned together in love and walking in all the Ordinances of God according to their light or a whole nation wherein there is here and there a Saint walking with Whoremasters Drunkards and all sorts of ungodly ones without distinction and enjoying all these Ordinances that the most have no right unto The comparison between a grown experienced Christian and a babe in grace is no way proportionable to this thing Wherein lies the growth and perfection and experience in a Nationall-church that is not in a Congregationall Either it lies in the Presbytery and Nationall-assembly or in the distinct Parishes and the Members of them If in the Assembly that they are so experienced the people have little benefit by it unlesse to subject their necks to what they say and there is the same in many Congregationall-churches when met for advice if in the Parishes and the severall Congregations the same is in this way we speak of much more little is the edification the members have from the perfection of a Nationall-church seeing they cannot meet together or be present at the hearing of these experiences that others have the onely benefit the members have is from the enjoyment of the gifts of their own Pastour and it may be he one that they never chose as Pastour to them but was imposed on them and the truth is this is but to circumscribe the Church in the Ministers for else there may be more understanding men and experienced Christians in a Congregationall-church then generally thorowout a nation the common people being most ignorant every where One thing he urgeth more in this That a Congregationall-church is forced to pray in the aid of other Churches for advice assistance c. which a Nationall-church need not Now here let all the world observe whether he or any of the Presbyterians have cause to call us Independent What more independent then a Nationall-church It s a Pope infallible needs no aid assistance of any Church in the world it hath a spirit of infallibility tied to its girdle We acknowledge we need help and assistance from other Churches they need none and here all you Presbyterians either renounce Master Pryns opinion and get some other Champion for you or else for ever cease to open your mouth to call any of the Congregationall way Independent In fine saith he He himself confesseth that the Apostles made new rules for Government and Discipline as occasion served and as God fitted occasions so he made known new rules successively by degrees not at once c. Therefore the Infant-Church in the Apostles dayes was not so compleat and perfect in all its parts as the multiplied and grown Churches afterwards A. How much he hath failed in the recitall of this let the Reader compare and judge I will not say wilfully as he saith of me for he hath left out that part which was the strength of all which if he had took in his Position had been overthrown which was that though the Apostles added by degrees according as occasion served new Rules and Offices for to what end should they adde untill there was occasion yet so as at length they discovered all the minde of God concerning his Churches Government and left it as a pattern to all the Churches As the Scriptures were not written all at once but