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A14363 A fruteful treatise of predestination, and of the deuyne prouidence of god as far forth as the holy scriptures and word of god shal lead vs, and an answer made to all the vain and blasphemous obiections that the epicures and Anabaptistes of our time canne make. Set forth dialoge wise, by Ihon Veron.; Fruteful treatise of predestination, and of the devyne providence of god. VĂ©ron, John, d. 1563. 1561 (1561) STC 24680; ESTC S119102 83,266 305

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Ihon. vi And he sayde Therefore I haue tolde you that no manne can come vnto me excepte it be geuen hym of the father Therefore to be drawne of the father vnto Christe What it is to be drawen of the father or what it is to heare and learn of the father and to hear and learne of the father to come vnto Christe It is none other thynge but to receyue of the father a gyfte wherby we may beleue in Christ For he that saithe no manne commeth vnto me excepte it be geuen hym of the father doth not discern them that heare the Gospell from them that heare not but them that beleue from them that beleue not Therefore bothe the begon faythe and the perfect faith is the gyfte of God No man excepte he wil be against the moste manifest scriptures wil dout but that this gift is geuē to some and to some it is not geuen But whye it is not geuen vnto all men it oughte not to moue any faithful man which beleueth that we are all borne of one man vnto condemnation beynge without doubte moste iuste so that nothinge can rightfullye be layde to Goddes charge though none were deliuered from it Wherby it dothe appeare that it is a greate grace of God that very manye are delyuered seynge and acknowledgynge in theym that are not delyuered what was due vnto theym that they that glorye should not glorye in their owne merites which they see to bee like vnto the merites of the dampned but that they should glory in the Lord. ¶ August ad Sixtum Rho. presbilcrum Episto Cv. IN this that they doe imagine and thinke that they shuld make God an accept our of persōs God is no acceptour of persons if they dyd beleue that wythoute anye merytes goynge before he sheweth mercye on whome he wil and calleth whom he dothe vouchsafe to call and maketh religious whome he lyst they do smallye regarde and consyder that due punishment is rendred vnto him that is dampned and vndue grace or grace that is not due geuē to him that is deliuered so that neither the one can iustlye complayns that he vndeseruinglye is damned God is not vniuste nor the other glory or boaste that he is deseruingly and for his worthinesse deliuered yea rather that ther can be no partiality or acception of persons where one lompe of damnation and offence dothe wrappe in all men so that he which is deliuered may learne by him that is not deliuered What punyshmente he hym selfe dothe deserue excepte he were holpen by grace If thys help commeth by grace truelye it is not to be taken for a recompence of me rites or deseruynges but for a gratuite and fre gifte of the goodnesse of God But it is vniustelye done saye they that in an euyll cause wher all thynges be in lyke one should be punished and thother deliuered Is it not therefore meete that both shoulde be punyshed Who would denye any suche thynge No man I trowe Let vs then geue thanks vnto oure sauioure When we see that thynge not to be rendred vnto vs whych we know be the damnation of the lyke to haue bene due vnto vs. For if bothe were delyuered it shoulde not be knowen what is by the iustice of God due vnto synne If no manne were delyuered it shuld also be vnknowen what grace doth freelye geue But in thys moste harde question let vs rather vse the words of the apostle What and if God would to shewe hys wrathe Rom. ix and to make hys power knowen suffer wyth longe patience the vessels of wrathe prepared to destruction that he myght declare the richesse of hys glorye vpon the vesselles of mercy which he hathe prepared vnto glory c. To the o Lorde God whose iudgements be vnsearcheable be all prayse glorye and honour world withoute ende Amen Imprynted at London by Ihon Tisdale dwelling in knighte Riders streate neare to the Quenes Wardroppe
through the enuy of the deuil cam death into the world whereby any man may easelye gather that the wyse man doth speake there of Adam being in the most perfect estate of his fyrst creation in the which if he had continued and abiden stil obeying the commaundement that the lord hys God had geuen hym neyther death nor hell could haue had anye power vppon hym he shoulde haue bene immortal he shoulde haue lyued for euer no destructyon at all shoulde haue come neare hym or touched him God then had created hym to be vndestroyed if he had not through disobedience broken his commaundement For it is wrytten in the booke of Iesus the son of Syrach Eccle. xv otherwise called Ecclesiastions that Lorde gaue him his commaundementes and preceptes sayinge if thou wilt obserue the commaundementes and kepe acceptable faithfulnesse for euer they shal preserue thee By this then it dothe plainly appeare that by breakinge of the law that was geuen him he did bring both him self and all his posterity into vtter perdition DIdy Question Mighte not the Lord throughe hys almighty power haue letted hym from doing so PHILALETHES No manne dothe denye Answer to it but that God myghte haue preserued him from fallinge because that he is almighty DI. And whye did he it not PHILALETHES Because that he would not But why he would not we leaue that vnto him as we said before For we muste not be wyser than it behoueth Howe be it thys matter hathe bene sufficientlye discussed before therfore we wil come againe to our argumente Ye haue hearde alredy that man was created to be vndestroyed if he had not throughe dysobedience broken the cōmaundement of god and that by his transgression and fall he dyd bringe bothe him selfe and all that came of him in to vtter destruction so that by reason of it all the whole lompe of mankinde is subiect vnto damnation and vnto death euerlastinge When we saye then that God did of this lompe of dānation chuse some euen afore the foundacions of the world wer layed for to be the vessels of his mercy and for to be felowe heyers with his sonne Iesu Christ of his heauenlye kingdome and that again he did ordain and appointe som for to be the vessels of his wrath and the examples of hys iustice we do in nothynge varye from the scryptures that ye haue aleaged laste For those places are to bee vnderstanded of manne beynge as God created hym fyrst and we speake of man beyng made through his owne folye We were all in Adams loynes when he fell transgression and fall the child of perdition in whose loynes we wer all when he fell wherby it foloweth that we al are naturally the chylden of wrath Therfore when he doth rayse and styrre vp some for to be the vessels of his wrathe as we haue sayed many times before alredy he doth thē no wrong nothing can be layed to his charge for it For he doth but as they do deserue and though he shuld withoute any exception dampne vs all he should do vs but ryght Question DIDY But syth that it was not the wyll of God as Esdras sayeth that man shoulde come to naught why did he suffer hym to fall after thys sorte I canne not yet well vnderstande thys PHILALETHES Aunswer Thys place muste be vnderstanded as the other that we expounded euen nowe It was not the wyll of God that man should come to nought if he had contynued and abyden styll in the same estate that he was created and put in at the first But syth that man hath contrarye to the wyll and cōmaundemente of almightye God broughte him selfe throughe hys disobedience rebellion to naught I meane to endlesse myserye and calamitye God oure heauenlye father for to declare hys mercy did chuse some from amonge his sede for to enheryte eternall felicitye and life euerlastynge And some agayne for to declare and sette fourthe hys iustyce he dyd appoynte and ordayne to be euerlastingelye dampned in hell fyer EVTRAPELVS And what absurditye were it I praye you to saye that almyghtye God our heauenlye father doth as a mightye potter make of one lompe of claye whych of hys owne nature is alredye subiecte vnto euerlasting damnation some vessels to honoure and some to dyshonoure Doth not the blessed Apostle sainte Paule wryte Rom. ix that God willing to shew his wrathe and to make hys power to be knowen dothe brynge forth the vessels of wrath whyche are ordained to damnation that so he may declare the richesse of hys glory on the vessels of mercy whiche he hath prepared vnto glory DyDIMVS Ye had made me almoste to forget a thinge whyche I thought to haue asked our brother Philalethes EVTRAPE What shoulde that bee DyDIMVS He said euen now that Adam did contrary to Gods wil bring him selfe to naughte by his owne disobedyence and rebellion But howe can this be For is it not wrytten that no man is able to resist gods wyll Rom. ix Obiectiō Sith then that it was not the wyll of God that he should be broughte to nought how could he contrarye to Goddes will bringe him selfe to naught Aunswer PHILA Ye shall vnderstand neighbour Dydimus that the holy scripture doth speake of Gods holy wil two manner of wayes Fyrst and foremost The will of God is two manner of way considered in the scriptures it doth ascribe vnto him I meane vnto God an absolute wil. And this will of God is hidden from vs and can in no wise be resisted For what so euer God doth once determine accordynge to that absolute wil of his it shal neuer be altered Again al the whole world shall neuer be able to wythstand it And therfore we saye that God is almighty because that he is able to do whatsoeuer he wyll Secondly the scripture doth speke of the deuine and blessed wil of god as it is declared and setforthe vnto vs in Gods holy word whereby we do learne what God will haue vs to do and what he will haue vs to leaue vndone We do al contrarye to this wil of our heauenly father when we do breake his holye lawe and commaundements Syth then that God by geuing our fyrst parent Adam a law and commaundement did declare vnto him what he woulde haue hym to doe and what he woulde haue him to leaue vndone when he did through hys disobedyence breake the lawe and commaundemente of God he dyd contrarye to Gods wil brynge hym selfe to naught and to vtter destructyon in the whych God leaueth them whome he hathe apoynted and ordayned to be the vessels of hys wrathe and the examples of his deuine iustice for to be glorified by their damnation DYDIMVS Obiectiō If God doth apoynte and ordayne some to be the vessels of hys wrathe and examples of hys iustice for to be glorified by theyr dampnation whye dothe then the blessed Apostle sainte Paule saye i. Tim. ii that God wyl haue
of his heauenly kingdom of what estate condition or degre soeuer they be whether thei be kinges or subiects poore or ryche Iewes or gentiles Dy. But thys troubleth me sore that the Apostle saith that god hath closed vp al vnder vnbeliefe that he mighte haue mercy on al. Who wold not gather by these words that God wil haue al men to be saued PHI. The holy Apostle doth sufficiently expounde him self in another place Gala. iii. when he saith that the scripture did shut vp al vnder sinne that the promise by the faith of Iesu Christ shuld be geuen vnto them that beleue Here do we learn plainly what they be vnto whō this promise doth perteine EV. It appeareth that it perteineth vnto al them that take holde vpon it by faith vnto none other But only thei that be ordeined vnto life euerlasting can take a sure hold by faithe vppon the promises of God as it hath bene already sufficiently proued by manye and sondrye places of the scriptures Therfore this promise dothe pertaine vnto them onlye And on all them that be ordained vnto lyfe euerlastynge and so take holde by faythe vppon the swete promyses that be offered vnto vs in the scryptures God wyll be merciful wythout dout PHILALETHES More ouer we must consider that ther in that place the blessed Apostle S. Paule dothe speake of the Iewes and of the gentiles declaringe and prouinge vnto them that they had no cause to boaste one agaynste an other For by the scriptures and word of God they wer conuinced found to be vnder synne and vnbeliefe But leaste they shoulde dispaire he dothe adde by and by that God wyll haue mercye on theym all not that he did speake of the hole body eyther of the Iewes or of the gentiles but of al them that shuld beleue of them both I meane from among the Iewes and the gentils DIDY Obiectiō It cannot be denied but that the fyrst part of the sentence or saiyng of Paule doth pertayne to the hole bodye bothe of the Iewes and of the gentiles For it is mooste playne and euydent that they were al synners and shut vp al vnder vnbelief Why shuld not the last part pertayne to the hole bodye of them both also PHILALETHES Because Aunswer that the promises of gods mercy do pertain only vnto those that take hold vpon them by faith But none do flye vnto the mercy of god and take hold vpon it by faith sauyng only those that god doothe lyghten and illumynate wyth hys holy spyryt But none dothe he illumynate and lyghten but those only whome he hathe ordained vnto lyfe euerlastyng As for the place An Aunswer to the place which is aleaged oute of Eze. iii xxxiii that he haue aleaged oute of the prophet Ezechiel it doth only declare that God is readye to pardon and forgeue any synner and to delyuer hym from the death that he hath deserued through hys synne trespace if he wyll repente and turne But what synners canne repente and turne vnfaynedlye excepte it be geuen them of God Ye knowe what Sainte Iames sayeth Iames. i. how that euery good gyfte cometh from aboue desendinge from the father of lyghts but to repent and turne agayne vnfaynedly vnto God and to take sure holde vpon hys mercy throughe faythe is a speciall good gyfte therefore it comethe of God and dothe descende from the father of lyghtes But thys specyall good gyfte dothe the Lord geue onely vnto hys electe and chosen I meane vnto them whome he hathe ordayned and appoynted vnto saluation from the begynninge euen afore the foundacions of the worlde were layed EVTRAPELVS we haue a notable example of the same in the two theues that hong with Christ They both receaued the lyke doctrine dyd see the like signes and tokens wherby they myghte haue knowen Luc. xxiii that Christ was the true Messias the only begottē sōne of god Yet one of thē only did repent and turne the other blaspheminge styl with thē that did put our sauiour Iesu Christ to death What other cause can we bringe of this but only that the one was chosen and the other was not ALBION I doo perceaue by youre sayinges that the promyses of God do then take effecte when they be receaued taken hold vpon by faith but where no faythe is there they be of no valewe Obiectiō Rom. iii. Why then doth Saynt Paul saye that the vnbelief of men can not make the promyses of god to be of nō effect Aunswer PHI. What say ye brother Albion cā the blindnes of any man make that the lyght of the sun shal be no light AL. the light of the sun shal be lighte thoughe all men were blinde PHI. Yet ye wil not saye that a blynde man can receiue any profit by the lighte of the sunne AL. There is a good cause why sith that he lacketh hys eies sighte PHI. And yet notwythstanding they that haue their eies sight do receiue profit of it I mene they haue the fruition of the lyghte of the sun and enioy the commodities of it AL. That is moste true PHI. So iudge ye of the promises of God they that haue faith take hold vpon them by it they receyue an vnspeakable profit of them and by them but they that haue no faith but contemne despise them can haue no profit by them that is to saye the promises of god are vnto thē of no effect whiche commeth not of the nature properti of gods promises but of mens vnfaithfulnes and vnbelief ALBION Nowe do I perceyue that they onely do enioye the benefit of Goddes promises that take holde vpon them by faith but this true faith is onely geuen vnto thē that are chosen ordained vnto life euerlasting wherby we may well conclude that the promises of God do only pertain vnto thē This thē shal be the sum of al A shorte sum of whiche hath ben sayed before that hath ben saied before how that god hath frō the begynninge ordayned and appointe some for to be felow heyers with his son Iesu christ of his heauenly kingdome and some againe for to be euerlastingly dampned in hell fyre and that whome he hathe ordayned before to enioy and possesse euerlastyng life them he hath chosen in hys sonne Iesu Christe afore the foundacions of the world were layde and that of hys free mercy and goodnesse and without any respect at al of theyr owne deseruinges or merites for to sette forth the glory of hys grace and to declare his mercye through out all the hole world But whom he hath appoynted to be the vessels of hys wrath them he hath accordynge to his righteous and vnsearcheable iudgements stirred vp for to be the examples of his iustice and for to be glorifyed by their dampnation wherin he dothe them no manner of wronge sithe that he rewardeth them accordinge to their naturall corruption whiche they haue of their first