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A51741
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A reformed catechism. The first dialogue in two dialogues concerning the English Reformation / collected for the most part, word for word out of Dr. Burnet, John Fox, and other Protestant historians ; published for the information of the people in reply to Mas William Kings answer to D. Manby's considerations &c. ; by Peter Manby.
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Manby, Peter, d. 1697.
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1687
(1687)
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Wing M388; ESTC R30509
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77,561
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110
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his Disciples Feet saying Si ego lavi pedes vestrâ—s c. If I being your Lord and Master have washed your feet ye also ought to wash the feet of one another This was a Precept yet hath the Church altered it lest the simple people should think a Re-baptization in it Why do not Protestants observe Christs Institution of washing one anothers feet before they receive the Sacrament So because the Apostle saith Accepi a Domino quod tradidi vobis c. I have received of the Lord the same which I delivered unto you that our Lord the same night that he was betrayed c. notwithstanding Christs Precept that the Sacrament should be administred after Supper the Church hath commanded it to be received fasting and Protestants do receive it before dinner And where Christ did break the Bread we receive the whole Host Christ ministred sitting at the Table we standing at the Altar Likewise it is commanded in the Acts that Christians should abstain à suffocato sanguine from things strangled and from blood but the Church hath altered it nor do Protestants observe it God commanded the Sabbath or Seventh day to be kept holy the Church hath altered it to the Sunday If then the Church may change things so expresly appointed in Scripture she may also change the form of the Laitys receiving under both kinds and that for divers reasons First That in carrying it to the Sick the Blood may not be shed lost or misused Next That no occasion might be given to Heretiques to think that there is not so much under one kind as under both But why would you have it under both kinds only to pervert and contradict the Practice of the Church For when you have it under both kinds ye believed in neither meaning a real presence in neither Now Sir as concerning the Sacrament of the Altar where you say you have a number of Doctors on your side and we none of ours indeed one to stop your mouth I think it not possible to find Nevertheless whereas your desire is to have one shewed you and then you will recant I will shew you two Ferebatur manibus suis saith St. Austin super Psal 33. I find not how this is true in David saith he literally that he was born in his own hands but in Christ I find it true literally when he gave his Body to his Apostles at his last Supper Again St. Cyprian de Coena Domini saith Panis quem Dominus Discipulis porrigebat non effigie sed natura mutatus Omnipotentia Verbi factus est Caro. What can be more plain than this yet to you it is not plain enough But give me your figurative significative and such other like terms and I will defend that Christ hath not yet ascended no nor yet that he was incarnate Wherefore I can only put you in the number of those whom S. Chrysostom speaks of Audi homo fidelis qui contra Haereticum contendis c. Hear O thou Christian canst thou hope to do more than Christ Christ confuted the Pharesees yet could not put them to silence Et tu fortior es Christo Wilt thou go about to silence him that will receive no Answer Thus much have I said not for you Mr. Cranmer for my hope that I conceived of you is now past and gone but somewhat to satisfie the rude unlearned people that they perceiving your Arrogancy may the better eschew your detestable and abominable Schism Fox pag. 658 659. Thus spake the Bishop of Glocester like a Catholique understanding Prelate After whom Dr. Story saith Fox thus inferred in words Master Cranmer you have made a goodly Process concerning your Heretical Oath made to the King but you forget your Oath made to the See Apostolique As concerning your Oath to the King if you made it to him only it took an end by his Death and so it is released if to his Successors well Sir the true Successors have the Empire now and they will have you to dissolve the same and become a member of Christs Church again it was no Oath for it lacked the three points of an Oath that is to say Justiciam Judicium Veritatem Thus Dr Story ibid. p. 659. Protestants will needs swear the King to be Supream in all Spiritual things or causes whether the King will or no and when they have sworn it they will obey him in such matters so far as they think good when he happens to be a Papist A. What followed after this B. After all this Cranmer made that Recantation which you have heard and retracted it again when he saw no hopes of his Pardon He had this reason to rejoyce says Fox that dying in such a Cause he was to be numbered amongst Christs Martyrs although he had no mind to be a Martyr much more worthy the Name of Saint Thomas of Canterbury than he whom the Pope had falsly canoniz'd meaning Thomas Becker p. 672. A. Of what Church dyed he a Member B. I cannot tell the Church of England being then abolished and Catholique Religion restored by Act of Parliament A. One Question you have not answered what were the Words of his Mission and Consecration both as Priest and Bishop B. That you shall hear by and by Give me leave to observe one or two passages more out of Dr. Burnet A. As to what Point B. As to that Candour and Simplicity which Burnet admires in him page 172. 1. vol. The Story is thus Burnet p. 172. second volume viz. In the year 1551. the fifth year of Edward the Sixth the business of the Lady Mary was taken up with more heat than formerly The Emperors earnest Suit that she might have Mass said in her House was long rejected Yet the State of England making his Friendship at that time necessary to the King and he refusing to continue in his League unless his Kinswoman obtained that Favour it was promised that for some time in hope she would reform there should be a Forbearance granted The Emperors Ambassador pressed to have a License for it under the great Seal it was answered that being against Law it could not be done The two grounds she went upon were that she would follow the ancient and universal way of Worship and not a new Invention that lay within the Four Seas these were her words and that she would continue in that Religion in which her Father King Henry had instructed her To this the King sent an Answer he was then scarce 14 years of age telling her that she was a part of this Church and Nation and so must conform her self to the Laws of it the Laws made by Cranmer Sommerset Dudley c. and that the way of Worship now set up was no other than what was clearly consonant to the pure Word of God that was King Edwards first Common Prayer Book which expresly commanded Prayers for the dead After this she was sent for to Court and
under a necessity of either marrying or committing the sin of Fornication notwithstanding his Vow of Coelibate See Fox p. 657. A. So much for his Charge and Defence before the Bishop of Glocester anno 1556. What did the Bishop say upon the upshot of the Tryal B. He made a long Speech the effect whereof was this Master Cranmer I cannot otherwise term you considering your obstinacy I am right heartily sorry to hear such words escape your mouth so unadvisedly I had conceived a right good hope of your amendment I supposed that this obstinacy of yours came not of vain Glory but rather of a corrupt Conscience but now I perceive by your foolish babble that it is far otherwise Ye are so puffed up with Vain Glory there is such a cauterium of Heresie crept into your Conscience that I am clean void of hope God would have you to be saved and you refuse it You have uttered such erroneous talk with such open malice against the Popes Holiness with such open lying against the Church of Rome with such open Blasphemy against the Sacrament of the Altar that no mouth could have expressed more maliciously more lyingly more blasphemously To reason with you although I would of my self to satisfie this Audience yet I may not do so by our Commission neither do I find how I may do it by the Scriptures for the Apostle commandeth Haereticum hominem post unum aut alterum conventum devita c. an heretical person after once or twice conferring shun knowing that he is perverse and sinneth being of his own Judgment condemned Ye have been conferred withal not once or twice but oftentimes ye have oft been lovingly admonished ye have oft been privately disputed with and the last year in the open School in open Disputations ye have been openly convict Your Book which ye bragg ye made seven years ago and no man answered it Marcus Antonius hath sufficiently detected and confuted yet ye persist still in your wonted Heresie Wherefore being so oft admonished conferred withal and convicted if ye deny your self to be the man whom the Apostle noteth hear then what Origen saith who wrote above 1300 years ago and interpreteth that saying of the Apostle in this wise in Apologia Pamphili Haereticus est omnis ille habendus qui Christo se credere profitetur aliter de Christi veritate sentit quam se habet ecclesiastica Traditio Ye rehearsed the Articles of your Faith to what end I pray you but to cloak that Heresie rooted in you and to blind the poor simple and unlearned peoples eyes for unless as Origen saith ye believe all things that the Church hath decreed ye are no Christian man in the which because ye do halt and will come to no Conformity from henceforth ye are to be taken for an Heretique whom we ought to eschew and avoid And first where you accuse me of an Oath taken against the Bp. of Rome I confess it and therefore do say with the rest of this Realm good and Catholique men the words of the Prophet Peccavimus cum Patribus nostris injuste egimus iniquitatem secimus We have sinned with our Fathers we have done unjustly and wickedly Delictâ—… juventutis meae ignorantias meas ne memineris Domine The sins of my youth and my ignorances O Lord do not remember I was then a young man and a young Scholar here in the University I knew not what an Oath did mean. And where you say I took two Oaths the one contrary to the other It is not so for the Oath I made to the Popes Holiness appeartains only to spiritual things the other that I made to the King pertains only to temporal things that is to say that I do acknowledge all my Temporal Livings to proceed only from the King and from none else but all men may see as ye agree in this so ye agree in the rest of your Opinions Now Sir as concerning the Supremacy due to the See of Rome although there be a number of places to prove that Christ appointed Peter Head of the Church yet this place is most evident when Christ demanded of his Apostles Whom do men say that I am They answered Some Elias some one of the Prophets c. but to Peter he said Whom savest thou that I am Peter answered Tu es Christus fiilius Dei c. Christ replied Tu es Petrus super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam The Doctors interpreting this place super hanc Petram expound it id est non solum super Fidem Petri sed super te Petre. And why did Christ change his Name from Simon to Peter but only to declare that he was to be under Christ the Foundation and Head of the Church Again where Christ demanded of Peter being amongst the rest of the Apostles three times Petre amas me he gave him charge over his Sheep Pasce Oves meas pasce Agnos meos pasce Agnos meos three times Which place Saint Chrysostome interpreting saith Pasce hoc est loco mei esto Praepositus caput fratrum tuorum And when they came that required Didrachma of Christ he commanded Peter to cast his Net into the Sea and to take out of the Fishes Mouth stateram hoc est duplex didrachma da inquit pro te me Petre. Which words do signifie that when he had paid for them two he had paid for all the rest So St. Austine in 75 quaest veteris novi Testamenti Salvator inquit quum pro se Petro dari jubebat didrachma pro omnibus dari censuit ipsum enim constituit caput eorum Our Saviour Christ saith St. Austine commanding the Tribute to be given for Him and for Peter meant the same to be given for all the rest For he appointed him Head of the rest what can be more plain then this But I will not tarry upon this matter Now as touching the Popes Laws which be contrary as you say to the Laws of God because the Service is in Latin which ought to be in English I Answer whosoever will take the pains to peruse that Chapter 1 Cor. 14. shall find that his meaning is concerning Preaching and obiter only of Praying Again Where you say that the Popes Holyness takes away one part of the Sacrament from the Laity which Christ commanded to be given under both kinds saying Bibite ex hoc omnes Now if a Man would be so proterve with you he might say that Christ commanded it to be given only to his Apostles into whose places succeeded Priests and not Laymen And admit that Christ commanded it to be received under both kinds So he commanded his Apostles saying Ite praedicate Evangelium omni nationi Baptisantes in nomine Patris Filii spiritus sancti But the Apostles being desirous to publish Christs name every where did Baptise only in Christ's name Again Christ before his last Supper washed