at large Vnto the fowre nexte sections I answer nothing sauing that where in the seconde secâ— pa. 5â— he saith that master Caluin in his booke against the Anabaptistes affirmethe that the churche as towching the external pollicie can not be perfecte I doo assure my selffe that as in other places so heere he hathe vntrewly saide off Maister Caluin And yt cannot bâ— vnknowne but in Moses and the Apostlâ—â— times ther was a perfecte patruÌ„ of the owtwarde gouernernment off the churches bothe giuen off the lorde and receiued off the churches neither can there be any parte of the owtwarde gouernement off the churche assigned by the answerer which draweth any suche impossibilitie withe yt as he imagineth And iff he saye that ther were faultes committed againste those perfecte patrones that is not to the purpose For the faultes off particular persons doo no more ouerthrowe the perfection off the gouernment whiche was receiued then the faultes off the officers in our churche againste the lawes theroff are to be imputed vnto the lawes them selues wherby that gouernment standeth And as for the examples off the churches off Corinthe and Galatia whiche he alledgeth they rather make against him For that disorder whiche the Apostle chargeth them withe being a slyding backe and falling awaye from that estate wherin they were firste off all set by the Apostell argueth that there was a time when the contrarie off those disorders had place in their churches In the nexte section he alledgeth diuers examples to proue that enemies one withe another conspire against the trewthe whiche no man do which and where I shewed that the churches friÌ„des may doo some thiÌ„ges which some of the churches enemies doo against him whiche in that the admonitors doo certaine thinges with the Papiste and Anabaptistes woulde giue to vnderstande that they are conspired with theÌ„ he answerethe that the admonitors conspire withe the enemies off the churche in thinges whiche are againste the churche which is a manifest begging off that whiche is in controuersie Towching that which I sayde he hathe tawght that there is no commaundement in the scripture to put heretikes to deathe althowghe he denie that euer he did so yet beside that he mainteineth the same in the seconde treatise where he leaueth yt in the libertie off the magistrate whether he will doo yt or no and reiecteth all the lawes off God prouided in that behalfe as Iewis he there be moo witnesses off this then his bare deniall is hable to beare downe to whose knowledge I wil so reporte me in this behalfe that if they confirme not the same I refuse not to beare the blame off that reporte where he saieth there is no cause that he shoulde be better thought of emonge the papistes which teache and practise the contrarie althoughe the Papistes abuse this doctrine to the horrible murther off the church yet the doctrine is the doctrine off god and not the Papistes and yow by staying the course off yt nourishe them to the daye off slawghter and shedding off the bloude off the sainctes off god vvhich is their feaste and vvhiche they so greatly delight in and longe after In althat which foloweth vnto the first tractate vvhich beginneeth page 62. there is nothing worthe the answere And as for that whole tractate because yt perteineth to the question off lordeshipp and dominion off the Archebishopps ouer the bishops and off the Bishopps ouer the reste off the Ministers yt shall be referred to the beginning off the 8. Tractate where the answerer shall receiue his replie What authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders Chapter 1. pag. 77. THe playster vvherwithe the answerer woulde heale his vnskilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche by these wordes placing in the churche will not cleane For to let pas the meanig off the admonition whiche he shoulde haue shewed iff he mainteine his answer by yt and not as he doothe contrary to all lawe of disputation bid me proue that their meaning was not so as he supposeth I saie to let that pas yt appeareth by bis plaine vvordes that this exposition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admonition but for that he knew not what difference there was betwene placinge in the churche and tollerating in the churche For himselffe coÌ„fesseth that this is the principall grounde of their booke that those thinges onely shoulde be placed in the churche whiche the lorde himself in his worde comÌ„aundethe and ascribing this iudgemeÌ„t vnto them he afterwarde expoundeth that to be asmuche as if they shoulde haue saide that nothing shulde be tolerated c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed c as the A. confessethe and placing in the churche is not the same that tollerating in the churche as he doothe also confesse yt must folowe that the principall grounde off the admonition was not as he saithe that nothing shoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde And his wordes doo discharge the admonition off any suche assertion For in that he saithe that their meaning was so farr as he coulde gather that nothing shoulde be placed c. yt is manifeste that in saying nowe that they mente that nothinge shoulde be tolerated c. he chargeth them farther then he was then hable to gather off their booke Afterwarde he chargethe me withe an vnaduised and a popishe assertion for that I say that many thinges are commaunded in the scripture vvhich are not expressed in yt He neded not to haue trauailed far to haue seene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe iff he woulde haue but considered the wordes which folowe in the same diuision that god hathe set before vs in his vvorde a perfect patrone off his churche But I was at leaste ouerseene in this kind off speache Alas iff he woulde vnderstande his grammer and acknowledge that which simple scholers off the gramÌ„er schoole doo well knowe that their is difference betweene expressed and conteined betweene expressed and included betweene expressed and implied betweene expressed and gathered He woulde neuer haue troubled the reader with suche folies And as for that which I set downe I did yt vppon Good groundes For who is there which knoweth not that thes thinges that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade that there is in our Sauiour Christe one parson and two natures are not expressed but onely conteined in the worde off God And iff proofe must be had off thinges which is to greate shame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ignorant off let the answerer know that lerned diuines speake afte this sorte Their wordes be thes Off the father of the Sonne and holy ghoste there is one nature one essence and thre persons In Christ our lorde there be tvvo natures and one person and many other thinges vvhich the catholike churche doothe receiue rather layde oute by the interpretation
obserued The first proposition is manifest considering that the statutes off the Apostels are the statutes off Christ the seconde is Augustines allowed off the D. and iff bothe these be true then the third must needes be This being thus gathered that which I added that therupō yt folowed that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scriptures is thus concluded That which doothe not conteine all the will off God necessarie for vs to doo conteineth no sufficiente doctrine vnto saluation but the scripture by Aug and the d. conteinethe not all the will off God necessary for vs to doo therfore the scripture by Aug. and the d conteineth no sufficient doctrine vnto saluation The first proposition is manifest in that S. Paul to deliuer him selffe from the gilte off bloude towards the Ephes alledgeth that he had taught them all the will off God the second foloweth off that which Aug. and the d. allowe for iff there be some thing commanded off the Apostells not conteined in the worde off God that being necessarie yt must folowe that some necessarie thing for vs to doo is not conteined in the worde And where the A. saithe that neither Aug. nor he say that any thinge not conteined in the scripture is so necessarie that it may not be altered vpon iust occasion by suche as haue autoritie he can not mocke the worlde after that sorte withe faste and loose at his pleasure For if they be statutes off the Apostels and commended vnto the churches what autoritie is there vppon earthe whiche can displace them which the apostels haue placed and iff it be madnes as he saith afterward owte off Augustin not to obserue them or once to reason off them how can they take order in them And this answer is ouerthrowne by the wordes off Augustin whiche folow immediatly But other things saith he vvhich are varied by regions as that some faste vpon the sabbothe daye some doo not c. are at libertie to bo obserued neither is there any better rule to a Christian man in thes then to do as the churche doothe vvhere he comethe Where it is manifest that he opposeth the tradition off the Apostels and ther statutes receiued by tradition vnto those thinges whiche are in the churches power to ordeine and to those wherin yt ys safe for vs to applie our selfes to the order off the churche They being therfore in this opposed the one beinge in the churches power the other are nor the one being of that sorte that off which side soeuer the churche determine off them a man may saflie obey the other muste needes be off that sorte that if the churche woulde otherwise ordeine of them then the Apostels that a man may not safely obey And in the nexte sentence the thinges which he opposethe those statutes off the Apostels vnto he calleth indifferent and therby giueth to vnderstande that he tooke them for vnindifferent and hitherto perteineth that he alledgeth owt off August in Zuinglius name and is found in his booke against the Donatistes where yt ys said that they are to be holden as giuen by Apostolicall autoritie Which is more then if he had said giuen by the Apostels considering that there are thinges giuen off the Apostels as counsailes and left at the churches order to chaunge vppon occasion as were the traditions which M. Caluin speaketh off but they were neuer left vnto the church with an Apostolical autoritie Which autoritie is off the higheste nature and proceding from the higheste court that can be And that this was Augustines meaning appeareth manifestly by the place which I alledged out of his booke againste the donatistes Where he saithe that all those thinges vvhich the churche houldeth generally are to be houlden as praeceptes off the Apostels althovvghe they be not vvriten wherunto he answereth nothing And by that place the folie off the answerer wherby he woulde tune Augustin by maister Caluins wreste is more plainly discouered For where he wolde haue vs thinke that August vnderstood those traditions onely which perteine to order and politie that may be varied and not vnto doctrine yt is manifest that Augustin in that place saithe that the Apostels gaue commaundement tovvching the not rebaptising off those vvhiche vvere baptized by Heretikes and that the custome of off the churche in not rebaptizing vvhich vvas obiected against Cyprian had the beginning off the Apostels tradition Nowe I would knowe off the answerer whether he dare saye that this iudgement off rebaptizing be off traditions which may be chaunged or whether there can be any iust cawse wherefore this may be altered And if he dare not saye this then let him confesse his faut and not seeke to make vp his breaches by sutche vntempered morter Where I saye that thereby there is a gate opened vnto the the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour off traditions all their beggery he answereth that the Papistes are rather confuted by this meanes considering that the Pope hath nether at all tymes nor in all places bene receiued Where to let pas that to helpe him selfe he addeth at all times which is not in Augustines rule he towcheth not the point off the cause For in that onely that it is saide that there be precepts off the Apostels vnto the church not cōteined in the word of God is pusshed at the strongest bulwarcke which the church hath to defend yt selfe against the Popishe beggerie and all other corruptions Which bullwarke is that whatsoeuer is commaunded of the Lorde vnto the church is conteined in the worde off god yff this be once shaken there is no sufficient resistance left vnto the church against this assaut For althoughe yt hath some great likelihood which hath bene generally and from the Apostels times receiued yet for somuche as yt is not vnpossible for the whole church to erre in some point and to haue taken vp or reteined off that which yt had before some thing not deliuered by the apostels it can be no sufficiēt bar to withstand the corruptions offred to be brought in by the Heretikes to saie that the church hath ether doon or not doon so and so sythēs the Apostels tymes And althoughe we might be assured that they are the precepts of the Apostels which haue bene so generally receyued yet the doore is not so close shut against corruptions as he pretendeth For this thing standing that there are cōmaundemēts giuen of the Apostels not cōteined in the word of god they may thrust in thinges which haue not had that generall and continuall obseruation For althowghe Aug. saie that they are the traditiōns of the Apostles which are generally receiued yet he dooth not saie that they onely are and the Heretikes whose corruptions should be repulsed in this respect that they haue not bene generally nor alwaies receiued might haue an easye replye that there is the same preiudice against certen off the commandementes off the Apostels committed to writing considering that
to admonishe those to whom the election off the ministers belongeth to tell them what maner a one owght to be chosen if that be not yet ys not this necessary to commend the election of the minister of the worde to the praiers of those whiche are presente at the election And where as he saithe that yt being extraordinary is not off necessitie to be followed he should haue saide that being extraordinary yt owght not to be followed Now vvhen he graunteth them to be suche as may be vsed althowghe not necessaryly he concludeth against him selfe that they are not extraordinary for as those thinges whiche are ordinarie in the worde off God owght to be followed so those thinges that are extraordinary are by no meanes of vs withowt an extraordinary spirite to be followed thinges whiche may be doone or lefte vndoone are nether ordinary nor extraordinari but haue a meane nature betweene bothe But as it is in in prouerbe the egle ketcheth no flies Maister D. hathe greater matters in hande then thes and yet to keepe the proprietie of speche profiteth muche to the keping off the pure nes of doctrine But the wordes off maister Caluine saithe he are plaine So they are in deede plaine to shewe your great vntreuth and plaine to shewe that which I contende for that is that althowghe some thinges are not to be followed yet other some thinges in this election are and owghte to serue for the direction off the election off the ministers nowe And because you shall not abuse the reader nether with the deniall off thinges to be so which are manifest nor guilfull escapes wherwithe yow goe aboughte to defeate the autorities which I alledge although yt be muche against my will to lenghthen my booke with translating so thicke and three folde of other mens sentences into mine yet being driuen to yt I had rather be somewhat troublesome to the reader then that yowr vnhonest practises shoulde not appeare to all that will not willingly close there eyes against the truthe But before I cum to maister Caluine I will set downe Cyprians wordes which are there commended by maister Caluin Cyprian therfore speaking off the election of a Minister writethe amongest other thinges thus God commandeth that the preyst shoulde be placed before the face off the vvhole congregation off the Ievves that is to say he dothe teache and shevve that the ordeininges off the ministers ovvghte not to be made but vvithe the knovvledge of the people standing by vvherby they being presente either theyr faultes shoulde be discouered or their vertues commended and so it may be a iuste and a lavvfull ordination vvhich is by the voyces and iudgemētes of all examined The vvhiche after vvard according to the dyuine mastershippe or authoritie is obserued in the Actes off the Apostels vvhere Peter speaketh vnto the people off ordeining a bishop into Iudas place Off which place fyrst yt appeareth that the people not onely had but oughte to haue to doo in the appointing off there minister and that not by any custome or decree off men but by the eternall worde off God bothe in the olde and newe Testament Also that theyr right consisteth bothe in examining the life off him which is to be chosen and in the approbation off him yff they like off him or refusall iff they like him not which Cyprian proueth bothe by the 20. off the numbers by this place and the sixte off the actes which he also citeth Now I come to maister Caluin After he hathe in the 13. section shewed that the election off the Apostell into Iudas place is no certaine rule for our elections he sheweth further whearin yt is no rule namely for that the election there was committed to lotte the vocation off an Apostell so requiring that by the iudgement off the lotte as yt were by Gods owne mowthe a successour might be appointed in steed off Iudas But in the 14. section he sheweth the lorde so approuethe off the iudgment off men vvhich he after expoundeth the churche that euen in the Apostels appointement vvhich haue this prerogatiue that they shoulde be created immediatly from God the iudgment off the churche shoulde not be passed by and to that endecitethe the 13. off the actes and 2. verse and this place off the first off the actes and 23. verse and off those places gathereth a perpetuall document to establishe the discipline and order off the churche in elections for euer Whearby appeareth that maister Caluins minde is not as the doctor woulde make vs beleue that ther can nothing be gathered out off this place perteining to our elections Afterward confuting them which vppon the places off Timothy and Titus gooe abowte to proue that the election off the ministers is in the Bishopps powre he saithe thus VVel therfore sayd CyPrian vvhyle he contendeth that yt commeth off the authoritie off god that the minister shoulde be chosen the people being presente in the eies off all and shoulde be by the cōmon iudgment and testimonie approued vvorthy and fitt And forth with reciting Cyprians vvordes before alledged and quoting this place off the Actes he concludeth in this sorte vvee haue therfore saith he that this is the lavvfull vocation by the vvorde off God vvhere those vvhich are chosen are appointed by the consent and approbation off the people Here againe yt is manifest that Maister Caluine vseth this place off the Actes to proue that the election owghte not to be withowte the approbation and consent off the people Furthermore speaking against the popishe election for that in yt all is in the pleasure off the bishoppe He citeth Leo and Cyprian which proue that by the worde off God the church owghte to haue her interest in the election off the minister and many Synodes which dooe severely prohibite suche elections and if they be made commaund that they shoulde be off none effect Then concludeth yff thes thinges be trvve there is this day in poperie no canonicall election nether by Godes nor by any ecclesiasticall lavve And if there vvere nothing els hovve can they excuse them selues that they haue spoiled the churche off her righte And so goeth forthe with confuting off the same reasons off the Papistes which are afterwardes alleadged off the doctor This may be sufficiente to let the reader vnderstande howe the Ans woulde shamefully abuse him with the authorytie off M. Caluin Wherin I doe not forget that in going abowte to proue that this place off the Actes hathe place in diuers pointes in the ordinary election I haue together with those places belonginge to the examinatiō pressed also those which touche the election yt selffe Which I did pourposely that I myghte not be compelled to set downe thes places againe a litell after Where yt beinge alleged for the election which is here alledged for the examination receiueth the same answere off the S. which this doothe Vnto my reason in the second Diuision that if an
then a dowsen lines of the place from whence he rente this Hauinge inueighed againste the Popishe election bothe for that in yt one bishoppe hathe all the powre and for the vnworthines off those which were chosen he addethe yt semethe therfore that there ys nothinge so agreable to the ordinance off god and to the oulde institution as that all the vvhole church off the faithfull amongeste a people together vvithe certaine learned and godlie bishopes ad other faithful mē hauinge skill in thinges shoulde choose a pastor and a lytle after Let therfore thes provvde bishops and folish Abbats goo shake their eares for yt is conueniente that the righte off the election shoulde be in the povvre off the churche off the faithfull instructed by the counsels off learned men for as that matter ovvghte not to be in the povvre of one so ovvghte not the rude and vnlearned multitude chalenge vnto yt selfe alone so great vveighte off the election c. Let vs nowe see whether the Ans be anie faithfuller in alledginge Maister Bullinger Firste who denieth that Paule and Barnabas did chuse elders and ministers there When we gyue vnto them the gouernmente and direction off the action there is no reasonable man can Imagin that we shut them owte off the election But iff yow thinke that because maister Bullinger saithe they chose therfore he affirmethe that they chose alone and withowte the churche thes wordes can by no means proue yt his iudgemente in other places quite ouerthroweth yt heare therfore what M. Bull. writeth Those vvhiche thincke meaninge the papistes that the bishops and Archbishop haue povvre to make ministers vse thes places of the scripture Therfore I lefte the at Crete that thovv mighteste appointe elders tovvne by tovvne and againe take heede thovv laye not thy handes rashely of any but vve ansvver that the Apostels did not vse anie tyrannie in the churches nor to haue them selues alone doone these thinges vvhiche perteined ether to the election or ordination other men in the churche shut ovvte For the Apostels and elders did create bishops and elders in the church but communicatinge their counsaile vvithe the churches yea and vvithe the consente and approuing off the people vvhiche dothe appeare plainly by the election and ordination off Mathias c. And there citinge howe Moses did cōmunicate the choise off the magistrates withe the people he addeth And so no dovvbte did blessed Titus althovvghe he had hearde thovv shalte appoincte elders in Creta yet vnderstood that nothinge vvas permitted hym to doo priuatly vvithovvte the aduise off the church And because this place is cited also to proue that Maister Bullinger shoulde thinke that the Election 14. Actes shoulde be made by Barnabas and Paule let the Doctor heare what maister Bullinger writethe in the page before sayinge That the lorde from the beginninge gaue authoritie to the churche to chuse and ordeine fit ministers hathe been shevved before in the second sermone off this decade by the example off the moste eldeste churches in the vvorlde Ierusalem and Antioche vvheroff the one did not onely ordeine seuen Deacons but also Matthias the Apostle the other did set aparte to the ministrie the tvvoo notable Apostels off Christe Paule and Barnabas vvherunto is added that the churches off the gentills beinge instructed or directed off Paule and Barnabas did chuse by voices elders or gouernours off the churche Where also he quoteth the same place off the Actes whiche is here in question Thes was I constrained good reader to set downe that thow mighteste vnderstande that the weapons wherwithe the D. fightethe againste this cawse are not as he falsly pretendeth drawne from the godly writers but ministred vnto him by some owte off the armorie off the papistes whose they onely be The places whiche I alledged proue firste that yt is vsuall in the scripture to ascribe that to the principall in an action whiche is commen to them withe other then that althowghe S. Luke had made no mention off the election off the churche but onely saide that Barnabas and Paule chose yet therby coulde not be concluded that the churche had no intereste in the election but onely this that Paule and Barnabas were the cheife in that action Yff that be ascribed vnto Iosue whiche he procured onely and layed no hand vnto howe much more maie yt be ascribed vnto Paul and Barn. whiche they bothe procured ād had some doinge in and therfore that example of al is moste apte for that wherfore it is alleadged I perceiue there is nothinge so cleare whiche the D. will not essaie to darcken seing he saith that yt rather appeareth that the people permitted the election off those gouernours to Moses The contrarie wheroff manifestly appearethe for after that in the 9. verse Moses had bydd them chuse gouernours in the nexte verse he saithe that the people accepted that commaundmente and thowght off yt as a thinge equall Therfore it is moste vntrwe that they retourned yt into Moyses handes againe for then they woulde haue answered that yt was not meete for hym to committe the election vnto them but rather for the wisdome wherin he excelled to doo yt him selfe And where the D. reasoneth off the 15. verse vpon the wordes I toke c. that phrase dothe rather ouerthrowe his purpose then cōfirme yt for it semethe to haue a relation to the gyuinge ād presentinge of those whiche they they had chosen And the very same Phrase is vsed afterwardes in the 23. vers of the spies whiche were sente to spie the lande which notwithstandinge were not onely sente off Moyses but off the people also as appeareth in the 22. verse and in the booke off numbers where the lorde doothe not onely attribute this sendinge off spies vnto Moises but vnto the people Moyses gaue no further authoritie vnto them then they whiche in ecclesiasticall elections ordeine those whiche were chosen before and confirme the elections whiche are made Therfore as those ordinations exclude not the authoritie off election so this confirmation off Moyses did not deuoure that powre off election whiche he had gyued them but theyr elections and his confirmation made vp a full creation of those gouernours Towchinge the false accusation off pushing at the magistrate I haue answered Those verses off the 22. and 23. off the 25. Actes whiche yow alledge shewe who bore the swate in the makinge of that decree But yet in that the letters were written in the churches and not onely in the Apostels and Elders names and for that the decree is ascribed vnto them by whome the letters are subscribed yt is manifeste that that consente and subscription off the people occupied some rowme in that decree Nether is that alledged owte of M. Calu. any thinge againste that I saied that the people had to doo in yt and gaue consent but giueth asmuch to the church as I in saying the churche committed the matter vnto the decision of the Apostels
For althowghe he saie so immediatly after he addethe Excepte peraduenture nevve elders vvere appoincted to the parishes for then the multitude off the place muste namely consente And after he saith Althovvghe in the elders alvvaies the consente off the cytisens vvas required Hytherto appeareth that all the elections were made by consente off the people if otherwise by their curteousie or as maister Caluin in an other place note the negligence Where the D. addeth And some times onelie the minister did firste choose and then offer those whome he had choosen to the magistrate who ratyfied the election if he liked it if not chose other c In deede here is an election withowte the consente off the people but what is that caetera belike some straunger which perteineth not to this matter Marke then againe good reader that if this were his owne doinge there was neuer suche a clypper off koine as he of the writinges off Godly men For yt followeth euen in the same sentence wherin the whole weighte off the cause dooth consiste Then the matter vvas brovvghte to the multitude vvhich althovvghe it vvere not bouÌ„de vnto those foreiudgemeÌ„ts yet therby vvas hable to make the les tumulte or if the people did beginne that vvas onelie to knovve vvhom they did moste desyre And vvhen the peoples voices vvere hearde then in the ende the clergie chose So that nether the clerkes coulde set in the ministerie vvhoÌ„ they listed nor it vvas not necessarie to obeie the folishe desires off the people Coulde there be anie plainer wordes then that the people was not bounde by that bothe the elders and the magistrate had doone but were yet at their choise if they liked not the chosen After Maister Caluin saithe that this manner off election by the ministers magistrates and people vvas in force in pope Gregories time and like to haue continued longe after Off yowr Canons heere alledged one onely excepted which maketh nothinge for yow the reste make directly againste yow For the canon attributed to the Apostels yt is there saide that if a bishop chosen vnto a churche doo not receiue yt he shall bee seperated from the communion vntill he take yt But yf it be throvvghe the naughtines off the people vvhich vvill not receiue him then he shall remaine bishop still and the clergie shall be seperated from the coÌ„munion because they tavvght their people no better to obeie Where appearethe that the bishoppe coulde not enter onles the people were willinge And where the canoÌ„ woulde haue him bishop still yt meaneth that he should reteine the name of a bishop because he was put by withowte his faulte Whiche thinge was grauÌ„ted to Miletius to vvhoÌ„ the Councel of Nice in the Synodall Epistle gaue the naked name of a bishop In the Ancyran Councell whiche yow alledge there is the same sauinge onely that yt is more directly againste yow For there the Councell willethe the bishopp appoincted vnto a churche yf it will not receiue him to retourne vnto his olde place of eldershipp where he was before The selfe same dothe the Canon Which yow alledge owte off the Councell of Antioche confirme So that thes three Canons can tel the bishop apoincted by other bishopps off the prouince no other remedy if he be refused off the people but to quiete him selfe and retourne to his oulde place off Eldershipp And that yow maie knowe howe contrarie alwaies maister Calu. is vnto the Ans obserue that off the same Councell off Antioche and no dowbte of the same Canon whiche the D. gathereth that the churche hathe nothinge to doo in the election Maister Caluin gathereth that the Councell ordeined that none shoulde be thruste vpon the people againste their will. The 12. Canon off the Councell of Laodicea in sayinge that a bishop ovvghte not to be appoincted to the gouermente off the churche beside the iudgement off the Metropolytan and other bishopps harde by gyuethe to vnderstande that as they had a stroke in that election so ther were other that had to doo beside them For otherwise yt woulde not haue spoken so koldly off yt For it saithe not that the Metrapolitaine and other Bishoppes shoulde onely appoincte a bishoppe no not so much as that they should appoint but onely that the Bishoppe shoulde not be appointed vvithout them The 13. Canon which prouideth that it shoulde not be permitted vnto the people to make election off the minister agrethe well with the 16. Canon off the Councell off Antioche Which as it vvoulde not haue a bishopp put vppon the churches otherwise frowarde without their consente as hathe bene shewed so vvill it not that those which the churches had chosen without the iudgemen off the bishoppes rounde abowte shoulde stande in force And if either Maister Caluin or Maister Beza haue any credite vvith yow yow haue their interpretatioÌ„ that the meaninge off the Councell was not to shutte owte the consente off the church but onely to prouide that the ministers and elders shoulde haue direction as beste hable to iudge off the fitnes of him that shoulde be chosen If they haue no credit with yow yet vvhether ye wâ—lâ— or no yt may manifestly be shewed that the canons meaning was not to shutte owte the people by other Councels off Nice off Constantinople off Toled off Cartage alleadged in the former booke Wheroff some goinge before and some comminge harde after with suche cleare testimonie off the peoples consente in the electioÌ„ decleare sufficiently that the Councell of Laodicea cannot be thowghte to haue had any suche meaninge as yow suppose but that there be no coÌ„trouersie I wil add to theÌ„ the testimony off suche wherby shall appeare not onelie what the iudgmente off those Councels are but what was bothe the customeÌ„ off the churches and the iudgement off other Councels from time to tyme in this behalfe In the Councell off Paris yt was thus decreed And because in certeine thinges the oulde custome is neglected and the decrees off the Canons are broken yt is our decree that accordinge to the olde custome the Canons off the decrees be obserued Let none be ordeined bishop againste the vvill off the cytisens but he vvhom the election off the people and off the clerkes vvith moste full consente hath required Nether by the commaundement off the prince nether by any other condition let hym be thruste in againste the vvill off the Metrapolitane and other the bishoppes of the same prouince In an other Councel Let yt not be lavvfull to get any bishopricke by revvardes or by other procurement but by the vvill off the kinge accordinge to the election off the clergie and off the people as it is conteined in the auncient canons that the bishop shoulde be ordeined by consente of the clergie and of the metrapolitaÌ„ or him that he vvill appoincte together vvith the bishops of the same prouince And after Besides this accordinge as the olde canons haue decreed no bishopp maie be
proue that As if I coulde no otherwise driue the bishopp from this sole election onles I coulde proue that the people can not erre in their electioÌ„ Or as if bishoppes elections were without danger off error so that he whiche will change them muste be driuen to seeke for suche electors as no error can take holde off And iff any barres were stronge enowghe to kepe yowr tonge from this vntrew dealinge my wordes which followe by and by after wherin I confesse the church maie erre had beene sufficient to restraine yt Againste my reasons here be bare wordes that the pastors are neuer the worse loued that are thruste vppon them I coulde haue as well as yow alledged the experience in other places if all men coulde haue seen yt and haue referred them to the manifolde fiâ—tes in lawe betwene the pastor and the people in our churches How often shall I tell him that the papistes are not the churche nor off the churche off Christe and therfore not to be suffred to haue to doo with the election off the minister this needed he not to haue asked if he had had his to be shorte which he repeteth so often in any commendation He asketh whether men allwaies continue in loue off those whom they haue chosen yt is easier to continew loue where loue is then bothe to fal into loue of him vvhom they coulde not awaie with and also to continew the course off that loue still And if the not seruinge off their affections breed hatered towardes him whom they loue yt will muche more make yt flame againste him againste whom yt was before kindled But still the A. imagineth off the churche as off dogges and which receiuinge meate at the hand off their pastor turne againe vpon him and reÌ„t him and not as sheepe vvhich heare the voice off their pastor And althowghe there be some hypocrites vhhich doo so yet all the church doth not so And therfore for their sakes and for the giuinge the deeper roote off loue in their hartes towardes the pastor yt is meete that this waie off free consente shoulde be taken As for the Hypocrites vvhen they shall ceasse to loue theyr pastors for rebukinge their faultes that shall be to the encrease of godes glorie Forsomuch as they are by so muche more inexcusable before God as they haue refused his admonition whom they them selues chose for that purpose And not that onely but the hatred conceiued off that dewtie off the minister shall be bridled and holden in rather by â—â—e remembrance off the iudgement vvhich he once in token off good will gaue off him For euen the earthely and naturall man hath this in him that whom he hath once loued hym if he hate afterwarde onles yt be for some thinge apparantly worthy off hatred he will be lothe to vtter it And althowghe for that his maners please him not he can not loue him yet leste he shoulde appeare inconstante and deceiued in his choise he will pretende to loue him still So that the consente off the churche in the election of the ministerie beinge profitable vnto the godlie and those vvhich are trewe sheepe that their loue maie abounde towardes their minister and in respecte off the Hypocrites and goates that they maie be more inexcusable before God and lesse hurtefull to men thes reasons stand still vntouched off the A. Yt is an easye thinge for M. D. Which neither proueth nor improueth any thinge by scripture to aske by what scripture proue that if the parishe choose an vnfitt minister the ministers and elders of the churches should aduertise c. The scripture I proue yt by ys that Saint Paule when he teacheth that all the faithfull are members off one misticall body off Christe which owghte to haue a mutuall care one off an other laide the foundations off this politie for as in the bodie off one particular church euery faithfull man coÌ„pared with an other in the same is a member one off a nother so in a more generall bodie off a whole Realme euerie particular churche coÌ„pared with other is likewise member of them therfore as nature teacheth my hande to helpe the disorder which is in another parte of my bodie so the spirite of God owte of his worde throwghe a fellow feelinge teachetche one churche to stretche owte her hande to put a waie as yt can the euill vvhich yt seethe approche vnto another And therfore when the scripture willeth that one shoulde admonishe another it is not onely a commaundement to euery singular man towardes his fellow but also to one whole companie towardes another societie And off this care extended so farr that one churche hath sente to admonishe another wee haue example in the epistle to the Corinthes where the Macedonian churches sente their embassadors with Saincte Paules Epistle bothe to moue the Corinthians to liberalitie towardes the poore and to receiue that vvhich vvas giuen by the churche vnto their vse And this maie serue to proue that one churche owght to admonishe a nother and therfore also those which are nexte as those which are fitteste for that pourpose That from the admonitioÌ„ off the churches yt is meete to come to synodes if the iudgemeÌ„t off the churches be contemned maie beshewed by proportioÌ„ from the place of our Sauiour Christe in Saint Mathew For as when one brother is not moued with the admonition of two or three the matter muste be referred vnto the churche to see vvhether the maiestie of it will moue him whom the authoritie off twoo or three woulde not euen so it is meete that the church that maketh lighte off the iudgement off twoo or three churches shoulde be pressed vvith the iudgementes off the diocese or prouince as shall be in that behalffe aduised And if I were in this poincte destitute off the worde off God yet the naked examples off the reformed churches owght to weighe downe a popish custome And that the magistrate owghte to laie to his hande iff the admonitions take not place it is manifeste by the reason which is alledged I haue looked maister Zuinglius Ecclesiast ouer and ouer againe The summe wheroff is that none shoulde take vpon hym any ministerie which is not called of some churche aÌ„d of the ministers nere abowte contrarie to the practise off the anabaptistes which entred into all churches and sometime put the pastor beside the pulpet from vvhich vvhether yow or vve be further let the reader iudge Where yow saie that I forgett my selffe which suppose now the churche maie err that said before yt was spirituall and iudgeth all thinges if yow coulde forget this vntrue dealinge I remembred my selfe well enowghe Thes cauilles which come so often without any colour off trewth are vtterly vnworthy off answer but as I haue saide in another place require rather a censor then a disputer Howbeit becawse there is nothinge so vnsauerie which some taste maie not be abused by I
her so manie botches hath she which doo not onely staine her bewtie but put her in hazarde off her liffe And if Sainte Paule for one vnclean person thowght that all the Corinthians had good cause of mourning ryuers off teares in euery mans heade are not sufficient for vs to bewaile the estate vvhich Maister D. telleth vs wee be in which by his saying haue fewe sober fewe chaste c. I leaue to the reader how euill the three places off Sainte Mathew are patched vpp together and how there is neuer a one off them vvhich proueth that he taketh in hande that there be in the churche open offenders which can not be rooted owte I giue vvarning onely to the simple reader that the A. beinge deceiued in interpretation off the parable off the sower doo not also deceiue him For there is nothinge les ment then that where one hearethe the worde profitably three doo the contrarie vvhich is bothe courious and vncomfortable onely he sheweth that off fowre kindes off hearers one onely receiueth fruict but off the nomber off those which heare fruictfully or otherwise not a worde And it maie be for anie thinge our Sauiour Christe setteth downe that in some places that one sorte of men vvhich heare vvith fruict are moe in nomber then all the other three vvhich heare vvithout fruict Yf wee shoulde saie that there is no church vvhere suche faultes be or that for suche faultes we shoulde make a departure from the church thes charges off Anabaptistrie vvhich sounde so often and so full in your mouthâ— mighte haue place But that it is an Anabapâ—isticâ—l cauil to saie that the multitude and swarme off knowen and open faultes argue wante off good gouernment and wholsome discipline in the churche yow are neuer able to shewe nether yowr selfe by argumeÌ„t nor owte of Maister Bull. or any other godly writer Shall there be no ende off this vnfaithful dealing Where in a syllable ys yt saide that the gospell can not be syncerely preached where great corruption off manners dooth appeare yet whilest yow confute this Yow vvoulde make men belieue that vvee affirme yt When I saie there be no knowen drunkardes or vvhoremongers in the churche I speake off that vvhich shoulde be vnto vvhich meaning the tenure off my disputacion would haue led yow if yow had bene willinge to follow For yow opposinge that for a bar vnto the peoples election th effecte off my answer was that yt is not meete to take aduantage off this that there be many suche dronkardes and vvhore mongers seinge they bothe maie and owghte either be browght to repentance and so are none suche as they were or thruste owte of the churche aÌ„d so not hinder the election This my meaning was cleare and the manÌ„er of speache if it had beene simply coÌ„sidered withowt circuÌ„stances restraining to this meaning is such as the scripture doth admit As when Paul saithe that the churchs of God haue no coustome to coÌ„tende he setteth forth not that which alwaies cometh to pas but what owghte to be alwaies For it may be that coÌ„tention may coÌ„tinew in a church many yeres and yet it not cease to be the churche of god The prosperite of the Gospell sheilded by authoritie of the Christian magistrate draweth by no necessitie vvith it suche aboundance of vvicked as yow suppose for althowghe hypocrisie may be more then vnder persequution yet knowen vvickednes of whoredome dronkennes c. may be easilier purged out off the church vnder a Christian magistrate So that the swarme off suche vvickednes vnder the Christian magistate more then vvhen there vvas none is not the faulte off the time but off the gouerners off churche or commen vvealth or bothe As for hypocrites I haue shewed that there is not so great daunger in them consideringe that their owteward doinges are the same vvith the children off God and the difference is onely in the harte Which althowghe yow denie yet my reason drawne of the nature off an hypocrite yow doo quite passe by That vvhich yow call the prosperitie mighte vvell be called the crosse and vvhip of the gospell yf it drewe suche a taile off synne as yow suppose For if vnder a Christian Magistrate either alwaies or for the moste parte not onely the nomber off hypocrites but of barefaced aÌ„d knoweÌ„ wicked shoulde be multiplied and not that onely but the good them selues shoulde wax worse that time mighte peraduenture after a sorte be called the prosperitie of those which professe the gospel but how the gospell maie be saide theÌ„ to prosper which is so manie waies plucked downe I can not vnderstaÌ„d And this is cleane coÌ„trarie to the fruictes of peace which the scripture declareth The Prophet as soone as he had spokeÌ„ of peace vvhich shoulde be published amoÌ„gest the Iewes addeth that Iuda shoulde then kepe her solemne feastes performe her vovves because the vvicked enemie off the churche vvas cut off Wherby he doothe not onely shewe that the ende off the peace of the church is to serue god more wholy then before but also that the peace gaue them more commoditie off seruinge off God then they coulde haue in time of persequution And if yow replie that so it shoulde be but it is not the answer is if it be not so yt is throwghe the greate and vnexcusable faulte off all and gouernoures especiallie vvhich hauinge moe meanes to intertaine all godlines suffer it to goe to vvracke But that peace off it selfe is an aide to godlie increase and confirmacion off the church yt is manifeste by that all the churches in Iurie Galile and Samaria beinge in peace vvere edified and vvalking in the feare off God vvere multiplied Now if they in the time off peace multiplied hauinge no further aide of the magistrate then that he hurte them not vvhat condemnatioÌ„ shall yt be if our churches vvhich haue assistance off the magistrate cannot vpholde them in that feare off God but they muste fall into suche riote as the A. supposeth And if multiplying off open wickednes and decrease of former godlines vvere so generall and so incident to the peace off the gospell as yow pretende there is no cause vvhy vvee shoulde praie so earnestly and often for it nai rather there shoulde be good cause off praying againste it For when it is giueÌ„ vs of God partlie for our ease and especially for the glorie of God in encrease of all vertue the cheife parte vvhich is the glorie off God beinge by yow shutte owte there is no cause vvhy vve shoulde praie for the other Yowr reason of hauinge a better fealinge in the time off persequution then in the peace of the gospell is very insufficieÌ„te especially to that yow vse it vnto off prouinge greater plentithe off knowledge in time off persequution then in peace considering that those wicked which neuer were in persequution nor haue that spirite vvhich is often times sharpened and quickedned by persequution knowe
notwithstanding the misteries of God as the children of God them selues And althowghe the persequution shoulde giue some aduancement to knowledge that waies yet it hindreth more otherwaies in that it letteth the often meetinges to heare the vvorde of God vvherby knowledge is bredd in that also pouertie wher with it is cōtinually yoked draweth many cares for this present life for them and theirs Likwise continuall feare they be in euen duringe the time of their meetinges for the vvorde off God enemie vnto the vnderstanding and puttinge to flighte the powres of the minde vvherwith knowledge is gotten and also the often and soudein shiftinges from place to place muste needes be a lett to that tainment off knowledge in the vvord off god Where yow call vpon answer vnto your reason yow haue it that the time off peace drawethe no more ignorance in the professors off the gospell then the time of persequution and therfore the difference between thes times in that poincte to be euill assigned I alledged also that the elections off the bishoppes vvere so euill and of so vnfitte persones that althowgh the election off the churche shoulde swarue muche yet it can hardly choose vvorse then the bishopes doo wherunto yow answer not The distinction of being of the churche and in the church I browghte and allowed of it yet as thowgh yow had browght it and I refused it yow labour in confirmation of it But that which needeth yowr helpe and for proofe wherof I aske some testimonie of scripture that Idolaters and papistes are in the church is not proued As for dronkardes and whoremongers 2c Yt is spoken off before close papistes and Atheistes which dissemble their vvickednes are in the nomber off Hipocrites and therfore muste be holden to be in the church vntil the Lorde discouer them For professed Papistes and Atheistes which neuer made profession off the gospell it is not needefull to waite for the sentence off excomnnication to cut them of seinge they vver neuer of the church If notwithstandinge their professed enemitie vnto the gospell they should be accounted off the church because they agree to heare the worde and receiue the sacrament with vs then a Turcke or a Iew professinge his Turkisme or Iudaisme if he be contented to heare the worde and receiue the Sacrament is so also to be accoumpted Which if it be absurd it can be no good reason to saie that they owghte therfore to be holden off the churche because they are in some respectes contente to he are the worde and receiue the Sacramentes And I vvoulde gladly learne where the Lord hath vvilled vs so to caste awaie the vse of our iudgement that when men make open profession that they are members off the bodie of the Pope which is Antchriste yet wee muste accounte off them as off members off Christe or howe this is to iudge iustlie Yow are very vnfaithfull in reporting my wordes continually I nether saie that Hypocrites onely are in the church and not of yt and the place in the margent I alleadge to another purpose then yow affirme that is to proue that the papistes and Idolaters beinge vvithowte haue not to doo with the church nor the churche vvith them where yow woulde proue by those wordes if any brother be an Idolater that Idolaters maie be in the churche yow muste vnderstand firste that it is one case off him that hath giuen his name to the gospell and afterward slydeth from that profession to Idolatrie and another of him vvhich neuer gaue it but hath bene from his infancie an Idolater For althowghe the firste can not be seuered from the church withowt solemne sentence of excōmunication because by a publike profession off the trwth he was once receiued into the bodie therof yet there is not lyke reason off him which was neuer so setled And this differēce Saint Paule dooth make when he giueth leaue to a Christian to haue to doo with an Idolater of the worlde that is which hath not bene of the churche and yet will not suffer him to haue to doo with one which is famously knovven for so the the word signifieth to be a brother Wheruppon followeth that forsomuche as our Idolaters professinge their poperie still are not nor can not be famously knowen for professors off the gospell this place of S. Paule openeth no dore for them to enter into the churche Furthermore yt muste be obserued what kinde off Idolatrie yt is which Saint Paule saithe maie fall into a brother and yet he reteine the name of brother This appeareth vpon the discourse he maketh in that Epistle to haue bene onely a sittinge downe to eate at the feaste of Idolaters made in honour of their Idoles withowt any honour doone to idoles by sacrifice or bodily vvorship and vvithowt anie conscience of that meate more then of other Which althowghe he proue a spice of Idolatrie yet was yt one of the leasie and lighteste kindes and such as holdinge stil the foundacione off Christianitie coulde not vvithowt obstinacie in it cut from the church Wherby falle the owte that the papistes vvhich in their Idolatrie rase the foundations of trewe religion can not by that place come into anie accounte off the church off God. For the first place off Maister Caluin that there are in the Church contemners off God and vvhich lyue dissolutely if the S. had added the nexte wordes that suche ovvght vvith all diligence to be taken avvaie by excommunication he might haue bene as hamed to alledge this sentence to so small purpose The other that Saint Paul meaneth the absteining from a disordered brother off priuate societie and not of the publicke communion yt is true in deede but to no purpose For withal he confesseth that the other owght to be seuered from the communion But forasmuche as it is not in the power of a priuate man to excommunicate that perteining as he saith vnto whole bodie off the churche by whose cōsent yt owght to be doone and yet in his power to kepe him selfe from his priuate societie he concludeth against the Anabapt which absteined from the holy cōmunion if any liuing offensiuely were receiued that it folowed not because S. Paul woulde haue one absteine frō priuate familiaritie therfore he would haue him absteine from the communion Which is no parte off our question and is too shamefully alledged considering that the place making nothing to this question striketh starcke dead another off his cawses towching the sole excommunication of the bishopp And althowghe it be owte off place yet hauing gotten the booke yt shall not be vnprofitable to admonishe the reader off the S. vnfaithfull dealing in his former allegations off Maister Caluin for vvhere pa. 81. he to conclude that the discipline is not of the substantiall notes of the churche alledgeth a sentence owt off this booke beside that I haue shewed how euill he concludeth off his wordes it is to be noted that in the same
booke he affirmethe precisely that the discipline is required to the substance off the church onely he denieth that vvhich the Anabaptist helde that there was no churche where there was no excommunication Likewise pa. 90. where he would make vs beleue that excommunication 19. Math is not by Maister Caluin iudgement vnderstanded off publicke offences Mai. Caluins declareth onely that those priuate admonitions doo not belonge vnto publicke offences but that those publike offenders ought to be excommunicated if they reste not in the churches Iudgement and consequently first complainned of to the churche Which are two off the Ecclesiasticall censures mentioned in that place off S. Mathew he dothe more then once or twise affirme Now leuing the D. in his threchery let vs returne if al were trwe yow alledge here as they are very vntrwe yet they helpe not For yow vvill not denie but dronkardes vvhoremongers papistes c. owghte ether to be driuen to repentance or owte off the churche which whether soeuer come to passe taketh awaie the inconuenience yow alledge againste the election off the church So that onles yow meane to nourishe them in the churche as bandogges to kepe owte this election this barre againste it is easely remoued It is appointed vnto the magistrate by the word off God that he shoulde not onelie prouide that his subiectes liue paceably one with another but also and that especially to see that they hauing the trwe knowledge of God maie serue him as he hathe prescribed This waie off gathering them to the nexte parishes seemed vnto me fitteste to be vsed in that case if yow can shewe better mine shall giue place Onely therfore I made mention of it to shewe that the impossibilitie vvhich yow so often caste in the teeth of the reformacion can haue no place if they continewe vncorrigible I haue before shewed that yt is the cōmaundemēt of God vnto the magistrate to vse cutting and burning and nether to suffer God to be dishonored in them nor the reste off his subiectes infected If they can be discerned for dogges or swine vvhich are not onely filthie in vvhich regarde I called dronkardes c. Swine but also treade the worde vnder their feete then I graunte he vvhich hath that iudgement off them assured by the testimonie of the spirite of God owghte not to teache them But this cōmeth owte of time For I made no mention off dogges and the name off swine I gaue not to the papistes but to filthie liuers and yt ouerturneth yowr pourpose for if they maie not heare the worde muche lesse can they be off the church The preuenting off an obiection is no digression vvhether yt bee friuolous the iudgement shall bee with the reader I tooke the likeliest signification off yowr worde established which is surely grounded withowte remoue and which hathe all the partes off a church nowe I see that by established yow meane allowed by the magistrate Althowghe I haue shewed before by storie that there were churches then which had maintenance of the magistrate yet as in a matter that nether hurteth me not helpeth yow I wil not striue speake of the church visible standing off good and euill of the owtwarde gouernment of the church vvhich standeth in administring off the word and Sacramentes and exercise of all partes off church discipline and that I haue shewed to haue all her partes althowghe not all her ornamentes Which I did not withowt reason annexed againste which cometh nothinge but a bare affertion and a charge off ignorance off that distinction which I my selfe did first propounde towchinge this that the cyuill magistrate is not the heade off the churche yt falleth into the questiō of the Archbishop where it shall be god willing handled That he saithe that the state off the churche was in the Apostles tyme popular by his owne iudgement which gyueth the name vnto the forme of gouernment of that parte which moste rulethe is vntrwe for the State off the beste did beare the greateste rule considering that there were matters belonginge vnto the church doone by the eldershipp wherat the people were not nor coulde not by any conuenience be present yet there was nothing in whiche the peoples Iudgement was required wherin the Eldershipp was not bothe present and president And this saying off the D. that the people in the Apostels times had to doo almoste in euery thinge is directly contrarie to that he hath before discoursed For to the Admo and me opposing the places off the Actes where thinges were doone ether by voice or consent off the church his answer hath bene that the churche had nothing to doo there but onely in the election off the Deacons and that popularitie he affirmeth to haue bene not in respecte that the church was vnder persequution as here in this place but for a speciall cause off contention then in the church Now I vvould gladly knowe of Maister D. What are those places off scripture wherby he will proue that the moste thinges in gouernment were doone by consent off the people if those places wee haūe alledged doo not proue yt That which yow ad off the conuenience that nothing shoulde be doone in the church withowte the consent and knowledge of the magistrate yowr addition taketh nothing from the consent of the churche For the magistrates consente and the churches are not at warre but one may hathe and dothe stande well vvith the other Because the recytall of a 100. differences is vnprofitable I leaue yt in the readers iudgement howe trwly and withowte bragge or figure I haue spoken But if for a 100. there were 1000. yet yowr cause shoulde be neuer the better onles yow can shewe that those differences pull with them a necessitie off change off the forme off election vvhich yow nether doo nor can That one churche shoulde admonishe another and that there are many Hypocrites vnder persequution is before shewed Off wicked ministers which had their followers and louers in the churches of God vvhich notwithstanding kepinge the profession off the gospell were in daunger off the lawes of the contreis where they dwelte is spoken off almoste throwghe all the epistles off Saint Paule yea yt maie appeare throwgh owte the whole course of the ecclesiasticall stories that many churches of Heretikes partly Arians partly Nestorians and especially of the Nouatians were persequuted and banished of heathen Emperours together vvith the catholike church of Christe And it appeareth plainly by that which hath bene of both partes alledged owte of Cypr. that certein churches abowte him did chuse vnmeet ministers Therfore Maister D. doth wounderfully forget him selfe when he saithe that yt is not lyke that the churche in persequution will chuse an vnmeete or wicked mynister or that they which suffer persequution for the gospell doo yt allwaies off conscience or off good conscience wheroff the question is And if he vvill admitte none off thes proses yet if he stand vnto his exposition off
may better appeare for that in other places where S. Paul deuideth the whole mynistrie of the churche the ministrie off the word which he vttered here by the word off Prophecie he there attributeth not vnto Prophetes but vnto Bishops And when as the prophecie which the D. phansieth is a simple Ministrie off the church that Prophecie mencioned there being compounded muste needes be diuers Likewise that a Prophet to the Corin. is taken generally for any which instructeth with any word off exhortation yt is apparant both by that S. Paul attributeth prophecying to all which haue any gift off teaching and in that he doth so often oppose it to the fruteles speaking in a straunge toung amongest the assembly of the faithfull His testimonies out off writers remaine wherein amongest the auncient he hath onely a counterfeit sentence off Ambrose as I haue before declared which as yt ys full of confusion and disorder so yt maketh nothing for the D. for if Apostels be bishops and Euangelistes and Euangelistes be Deacons c. what maketh that to proue that there are beside the bishops and Deacons seuerall functions of Apostels and Euangelistes which is the question But how this fable is beaten down by all auncient antiquitie that may be a sufficient argument that the auncient writers in great consent speake off the whole ministrie off the church as deuided into thes three orders Bishops Elders and Deacons After that other ministries entred as doorkepers subdeacons c. yet there were none but such lightheaded spirits as I haue before spoken off that durst peint out any their mynysteries with the names off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes For the new writers that the D. if his forhead be not of yron may learn to blush I will towch their Iudgment onely which he hath alledged for him self Maister Caluin diuiding the mynistrie off the word into Apostels Prophetes Euangelistes Pastors and Doctors affirmeth that the tvvo last onely that is to say Pastors and Doctors are ordinary Bucer likewise deuiding them into perpetuall and for a tyme affyrmeth that these perteine vnto thestate off the former church and correcteth the D. Ambrose for appliyng them to his times by the true Ambroses sentence to the contrary in the fyrst of his Offic. Peter Martyr vsing the same diuision sheweth that the function off Apost and Prophets are not in vse and that the ministrye of Prophets is not onely expyred in respect of telling thinges to come but also for the manner off interpreting the scripture That he speaketh not the same off the Euangelist was for that the Apostle maketh no mention off him in that place Musculus deuideth the mynisteries off the vvord into those vvhich serued for the beginning off the gospell as Apost Euang. Proph. and those vvhich cōtinue for euer as Pastors Doctors Elders Bishops Bullinger saith the office off Apostleship Prophetship and Euangelistship were instituted off the Lord for a tyme and that thes many ages euen synce the foundacion off the kingedome off Christ both Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes are ceassed into vvhose place are come bishops Pastors Doctors and Elders Last off all the confession off the churches hauing spoken off all mynisteries off the word mencioned off the Apostel concludeth that off all those now it is lawfull to esteeme mynistries off the churche Bishops Elders Pastors and Doctors Thes autors affirming that thes mynistries be extraordinary that they were for a time that other are come into their places the reader may see how the D. dealeth with him Let yt now be noted how he hath haled thes sentences taken from them Out off Maister Caluin he alledgeth that God hath stirred vp Apostels or Euangelistes synce the time of the primitiue churche and hath doone so at this tyme. Within a lyne after he addeth yet I call that extraordinary because in churchs vvell dressed it hath no place Of the like sort yt ys that he alledgeth owt off my booke whereas vpon Maister Caluin so of my wordes which affirme that God hath raised vp sometimes Euangelistes immediatly by his spirit vvithout any calling off men he woulde conclude that the office is ordinary and perpetuall then which bouldnes what can be greater Out of Bucer he alledgeth that there be now Euāgelists Where if his maner of speach that there are found Euangelists could not yet that which he addeth that God doth it by merueilous meanes ought to haue kept him from that allegacion except he thinck that a miraculous calling be perpetuall and ordinary Out of the Confess is brought that thes offices off Apostles c. are mynistries off the new Testament els should they haue great iniury seing they were both in tyme and dignitie first but who the D. set a part would euer conclude therof that they are perpetuall ministeries especially considering it addeth immediatly in plaine wordes that the Apostles are ceased and Pastors come into their places which could not be yf it had any such meaning as the D. phansieth Where it saith that there are yet Prophetes yf that were not which I alledged out of it towhing the shutting owt of those three ministeries from them which are now in vse yet the manner off speaking there are yet found the same with that of Bucer before alledged declareth that they ment therby an extraordinary calling For so we vse to speak of thinges rare and not in commen vse Last off all where yt is alledged owt off Bullinger that the wordes mentioned to the Ephe. are confounded yt doth not make for him but is answer both against the most places brought to proue Timothe a bishop and against those which he hath cited in the 3. and 4. Diuision off this chap. for if those ministries being separate one from an other their names notwithstanding be confounded yt muste follow that not euery one which is called an Apostle or bishop c. hath that function which is by some proprietie seuered from other and which the Apostle mēt to the Eph. for where one man being an Apostle is sometimes called a Prophet Bishop Doctor Elder and Deacon yf he will say that because he is called by thes titles he did therefore all those functions proper vnto those mynistries beside thabsurdities before shewed the vntruth doth manifestly appeare in the office off disposing off the churches money Whereoff the Apostles discharging them selues ceassed not therefore sometime to be called by the same name off Deacons And to vse those authorities which he hath brought Ierom calleth I say the Prophet both Euangelist and Apostel Yet I think the D. doth not esteme Ierom to haue had so litle iudgement as to think that he was ether off them in that signification they are taken of Saint Paul. likewise where he hath cited out off Caluin that Timothe was a Pastor when Caluin calleth him also an excellent Doctor and maketh that a seuerall function from the Pastor yt is cleare that he spake not off
the lord hath giuen The Prince with his power the minister with his conforte and instruction the priuate man with the wealthe God hath blessed him withe at the least with his praier the communion off sainctes and fellowfeeling in the members off one bodie requiring this Hereoff we haue example in Aurelius which saith he had care off all churches Bouins a Popishe friar or Monke I well remembre not whether tawght in this point in the same schole with the D. in esteming that care off churches implied rule least the bishop off Rome should be hurte by that speache expoundeth all churches all in Affricke Our D. h alledging this place because in taking care in his sence for rule with authoritie he should in trauailing with the Archbishop haue browght vs forth a Pope in steede off all churches putteth many churches so that he wil neuer want for if his places be to streite for his Archbishops measure he settethe them vpon the teinter hookes if to wide he laiethe them in water and shrinkethe them But what shoulde I stand in confuting this seing yt is so farr off that care prouethe rule and dominion that it is sene not onely in one equall ouer an other but euen in seruantes ouer their masters As for that that is said Chrysostomes care restreined here to certeine places can not be vnderstanded off suche a generall care as comprehendeth all churches I answer that the care off his owne churche being properly commended vnto him it is mete that as the churches next doo most affecte his bettering it commonly yf they be good making yt worse if they be nawght so in that generall care ouer the rest ther should be suche dispensation as to haue a greater care ouer those then ouer the rest as we see in wise Princes more carefull off the borderers then off those further remoued from them In which degre yt is not vnproperlie spoken that he had the care off suche churches rather then off all His foure notes owt off Theodoret depend vpon these wodes the same care so that yf yt fall owt that Chrysostome had not the same rule ouer Thracia Asia c. which he had ouer Constantinople then those wordes spoken off the gouernement he had in that citie are idle to proue the same in Thracia c. But first the D. crieth owt of corruption crafte and either ignorance or malice good wordes Maister D. I pray yow For ignorance yt is no greate matter I am content yow say that I borowed two greeke wordes off my neighbours But why corruption c did I not set downe wordes sufficient to confute your vntrew dealing which in stede of care put downe rule was I bownd to set downe more in greke then yow surmised in Englishe yea could I haue set downe the worde yow require with any sence vnto the reader vnles I had set downe as yow now the whole story and so haue giuen your cause greater coulour then your selfe knew of then I helpe yow diuerse times with argumentes which yow make much of but will yow binde me to do so alwaies I haue more coulour to crie out of yow which to proue Chrysostome gouernour of these places voluntarily cite Socrates trippinglie vvinding vp in thes wordes et caetera vvhich is your ruine and which manifestly confuteth the largenes yow suppose off the bishop off Consiantinoples metropolitaneship Therfore seing this bitternes must be vented yow at least should haue waited some better opportunitie now let vs see vvhether these wordes he had the same care ouer Thracia c that he had ouer the churche off Constantinople vvill intitle Chrisostome lawfully to as great authoritie ouer one as ouer the other For the discussing vvheroff I must by thy good leaue gentle reader fetche this matter somewhat higher The Councell off Nice bounding and butting the metropolitaneships decreed that the bishop of Constantinople vvhich it calleth the greate citie should be metropolitane ouer Thracia certeine other ouer Pontus others ouer Asia to the nombre off ten metropolitaneships This order was confirmed by other councels off Constantinople and Ephesus as they are obserued and continued vntill the councell off Calcedon vvhich moste confusedly and disorderedly throwghe extreme Ambition off the bishop off Constantinople drowned almoste all these ten in his one onlie sea Where also yt was ordeined by the same Councell of Nice that the Metropolitanes shoulde be off equall power and not one vnder an other this Councel made one Metropolitane ouer a nombre Where further it was ordeined by diuerse Councells as hath partely before and partely may appeare by c Theodoret that the Metropolitane off euerye Prouince shoulde be chosen by the bishops theroff this Councell maketh the bishop of Constantinople to haue the appointement off all metropolitaneships within the compas alledged by the D. Moreouer where the same Nicene Councell with sundrie others ordeined that the bishops of the Prouince at the least three should be at the ordinacion off euerie bishop this Councell giue the yt in the bishops off the Barbarians meaning as I suppose Scithians vnto him off Constantinople Now if the D. will make Chrysostome accessary vnto this famous robberie if giltie off all this confusion and disorder off the breache off so many Canons off the Nicene and other Councels and finally if he will make him a Pope he dothe him that iniurie which I would be lothe For where vnto me alledging that if he vvere Archbishop off all thes churches he vvas off moe then euer the Pope in his greatest pride he answereth that I am greatly deceiued for that Phocas the Emperour made all these churches and all other subiecte to the Pope and appointed him head off all I answere that he is greatly deceiued Considering that the Empire being deuided into the east and weast Empire more then 250. yeares before Phocas made Boniface the third Pope Phocas coulde not hauing his Empire for the most part in the easte where the churches were most ruined make all or halfe the churches subiecte vnto Boniface So that yt ys manifest that Chrysostome by his saying metropolitane off all Asia and a good parte off Europe must needes haue moe vnder him then Pope Boniface What the Pope claimed is nothing to that I set downe which spake precisely off that he was and not off that he claimed to be Therfore if he build vpon Chrysostomes supposed metropolitaneship he doth manifestly allow a larger circuite vnto a bishop then euer any Pope had Yf I would haue sought to haue discredited Chrysostome I might haue answered that yt was no meruaile thowghe he exercised suche dominion considering that bothe Socrates and Camerarius after him which commende diuerse vertues off his affirme him to haue bene a proud man But considering that him selfe opposeth the Emperours large dominion to a bishops charge in one cytie I chose that sence which I setdowne Neither are there any wordes either in Theodoret or the Centuries
The second replie of Thomas Cartwright agannst Maister Doctor Whitgiftees second answer touching the Churche Discipline Isay 62. vers 1. For Syons sake I will not hould my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not reste vntill the righteousnes therof break forth as the light and the saluation therof be as a burning lampe Ibid. vers 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers kepe not silence and gyue him no rest vntill he repaire and set vp Ierusalem the praise off vvorld Imprinted M. D. LXXV To the Churche off England and all that Loue the trueth in yt Thomas Cartwright Wisheth mercy and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe THe Church off God so ofte vs scripture not compared onely but figured in the Citie Ierusalem serueth for instruction in this cause For as in yt the wal first broken downe was last made vp againe and that more then 14. yeares after the temple builded so is yt commenly in the spirituall wal off the churche whiche is the discipline the lorde appointed aswel for strenght of yt as for houlding out of all aduersarie power whether yt be corruption off doctrine or manners The first is to be seen in the Act. of thapostles where after the churches gathered by preaching there was an eldership seuerally placed in them to whom the execution of the church discipline doth especially appertain The other may as easily appear to him that considereth the estate off the churche after the Apostles by monuments off those times in which allwaies as this fort off gouernement left by them was first suffred to decaie so the purenes of doctrine decreased vntill the churche yt selfe except a few stones here and there scattered was browght to heapes off dust Yf yâ— be asked why the discipline hauing right to entre with the doctrine findeth not alwaies that fauour amongest men The cause â—s apparant that when Satan can not gain this first point to houlde the doctrine owt off a city or Kingdome he sweareth after the second that yt may be there with smallest fruict and shortest continuance Wherin let I beseche yow be considered his doings against the building off the wal off Ierusalem For if he bestirred himself so in hindering that materiall wal it wil be les meruaile yf for hinderance off this spirituall he trudge to and fro open his whole pack off subtilties and as yt is in prouerb bestovv both â—vet and dry And first touching the persons he vseth in his fight against both they are not much vnlike For in steed off a bastard kinde off Israelites Apostataes from God and his tru seruice which were there the foreine enemies we haue now the Papistes who as shal appear he set in the forward of this battail against the discipline now propounded And as now we haue within the church whiche couered with the name off the gospel and off the teachers theroff giue a more daungerous assault then the Papistes So were there then euen off the Iewes them selues vnder gouerners and Prophetes which secretly and openly opposed them selues As for the practises they are so like in bothe that all which will open their eies maie easely espie the same workeman For as the enemies then placed their cheef strenght in accusations against the church that yf it vvere suffered to laie the foundacioÌ„s of the vval it vvould moue seditioÌ„ and rebel against the Kinge euen so our aduersary to arme the Prince against this cause soundeth nothing more then rebellion sedition and suche like Yf this were not able to discrie or at least to giue warning off this vnfaithfull dealing yet this may That these are the verie weapons off the papistes which not able amongest vs with so great succes to be vsed by them selues as those which are knowne enemies haue bene ministred to the D. that being throwne owte off his hand in whose mouthe is the gospell they might be thowght to haue bene made for defence which were forged for ouerthrow of yt For where Brentius teacheth that the ministers owght not to beare dominion ouer the churches like princes Hosius accuseth him that by the same meane he vvent about to displace Caesar And vpon like occasion that vve vvould ouerthrovv al kingdomes and superiority that men might doe vvat they liste That yf the Almans had once shaken off the Pope they vvould shake off Caesar sone after Yf these be compared with diuers off the D. accusations and namely with that page 455. lin 1. yt will be meruail that onles he were in this point taught by the same spirit Hosius was he could iump so euen not onely with the like accusation but almost with the same wordes But this shall better appeare in discours off this boke where ys shewed not onely that he hathe the like but the verie self same cause with the grossest Papistes I say the grossest for that in some pointes as off the churches election and pastorall residence there are found off them more fauorable to the trwth then he which ioining with Catholike writers both ould and of our time haue written against the estate off the Popish churche in that behalf And that no mans simplicity be abused by an owtward profession off the gospell as thowgh yt were vnlike that they which professed yt should be enimies to the trwe discipline or vncredible that the same whiche cry out off the Tyranny off Antechrist shoulde refuse the moderat and wholsom gouernement of Christ yt may please them to vnderstand that this cause hathe before this bydden the assault not off the Papistes alone but euen off them which make shew off so deadly war with papistry that the greatest force of their resistance hathe bene a feare ether pretended or vainly phansied least the gyuing place to the discipline shoulde draw after yt the popishe Tyranny Capito a man off singuler learning and godlines affirmeth that it was obiected vnto them whiche vvente about to restore the discipline that they vvould be Tyrans ouer the churche vvhich vvas free and cal back againe a nvve popedome M. Bucer SataÌ„ goeth about that by restoring of the discipline the faithfull Ministers should be thovvght to seek ambitously the same Tyranny vvhich Antechrist did M. Beza vvhen the Eldership and excoÌ„municatioÌ„ vvere to be instituted there vvaÌ„ted not vvhich cried ovvt that the popish tyranny vvas by that meanes called back again also that the magistrats office vvas therby in parte inuaded Now if these slaunders be compared with the Answerers al may vnderstand that althowgh the instrments vsed against the discipline vary in tyme and countrie yet the autor misleading some by simplicitie and thrusting other headlong throwgh couetousnes or ambition ys the same in our countrey which was then in Germany Fraunce or Sanoy For that the discipline now propounded is the same whiche suffered this coÌ„tradiction off certein professors off the Gospell shall manifestly appear in this discours and may be
othe made with theÌ„ put to deathe And vnles this be admitted we shall be compelled to condemne the spies which entred into league with Rachab the Harlot and SalomoÌ„ which receiued the Amorytes that voluntaryly yelded theÌ„ selues vnto his obedience and withall vnto the obedience off the lorde as it maie appeare in the bookes off Esra and Nehemias where their posteritie which are there called the sonnes off the seruantes of Salomon hauing of olde time grow ne into one bodie off the churche off god withe the children of Israel ioyne themâ—elues with theÌ„ in the restoring of the temple Wheruppon the A. may vnderstande that the Scripture reasonethe negatiuely againste the Israelites in a thinge wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrarie Moreouer we reade that when Dauid had taken this counsell to builde a temple vnto the lorde albeit the lorde had reuealed before in his worde that there shoulde be suche a standing place where the arke off the couenante and the seruice off god shoulde haue a certeine abydinge and albeit there was no worde off god which forbad Dauid to builde the temple yet the lorde with commendation off his good affection and zeale he had to the aduancement off his glorie concludeth againste Dauid his resolution to builde the temple with this reason namelie that he had giuen no commaundement off this who shoulde builde yt Where he woulde grounde this answer vpon the wordes off Zuinglius yt is manifest that Zuinglius reproueth the Anabaptistes not for reasoning negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture but that they reasoned negatiuely off an acte or an example And there is great difference betwene them that saye it is no conteined or it can not be concluded off any place in the scripture therefore yt is vnlawfull and betweene the Anabaptistes which reason that therefore the baptisme off children is vnlawfull because it is not founde in the Scriptures that the Apostles did babtize any children Wheras iff they had reasoned thus that the baptisme off yonge children was vnlawfull forasmuche as yt was not commaunded in the scriptures althowghe the grounde off their reason had bene false yet their conclusion had bene faste and sure And therfore iff the answerer wolde haue delte trewly he shoulde not haue fathered this answer of Zuinglius whiche hathe no suche thinge but off the Papistes whose proper defense this is againste those whiche manifie the sufficiencie of the worde off God as that whiche giueth men addresse vnto all thinges whiche are to be doone Maister Harding reprochethe the Bishopp off Salusbery with this kinde off reasoning whiche the answerer obiectethe againste vs so often vnto whom the Bishopp answereth The Atgument Maister Hearding meanethe and not very plainely vttereth is the argumente off authoritie negatiuely vvhich is taken to be goode vvhen soeuer proufe is taken off godds vvorde and is vsed not onely by vs but also by many of the catholike fathers And there alledgeth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. dispureth negatiuely off the authoritie off the scripture for that the Apostel vppon the wordes off Moses in thy seede and not seades concludeth that our sauiour Christe was vnderstanded likewise he shewe the how Origine reasoneth after the same sorte And a litle after sheweth the reason why the argumente off authoritie off of the scripture negatiuelie is good namely for that the worde off God is perfecte In another place vnto Maister Harding casting him in the teethe with the negatiue Argumentes he alledgeth places owte of Ireneus Chrisostome Loo which reasoned negatiuely of the authoritie of the scripture The places which he alledgeth be very full and plaine in generalitie withowt any suche restraincte as the A. imagineth as they are there to be seene Wheras he saithe that the reason that God coulde giue a perfecte patrone off the churche therfore he hathe so doone doothe no more folow then in there all presence off the Sacrament he doothe but trifle withe his reader For I reason not off the bare power off God but haue ioyned his will with his power For my wordes be that the Lorde determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme off his churche is bothe hable to doo yt and hathe doone yt Where yt is euidente vnto all men that I grounde my reason not onely off the habilitie off the lorde but vpon his determination not onely off that which he coulde doo but off that he hathe doone Diuision 2. pag. 79. VNto that wherin he was towched for his vnskilfulnes in diuiding in that bothe matters off gouernement and matters of faithe which he deuideth and by diuiding opposethe meete so frendlie together in the gouernement of the Pope he answerthe not And yet hauing nothing to answer he findeth him selfe the talke of a whole sheete of paper For first off all how ridiculous ys it that he saithe he did not put a case but an example Then whether perteines it that he settethe doune what the Papistes saye off the pope what the pope doothe himselffe That also whiche he affirmethe in so good earnest that no gouernement owght to be receiued direcly againste the worde off God that he repeatethe and repeateth againe his negatiue argument of the popes supremacie are they not all strey spreaches fraied owt of ther wittes carying not the weight of a fether to the profe off any thinge in controuersie hauing no knot either with the cause or one of them with another Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies and gouernement off substantiall and accidentall of externall and spirituall are altogether vnprofitable brought to auoide his apparant ignorance in diuiding Likewise his dalying in his questions what gouernement I meane which is apparant in the discours off all our bookes off boothe sydes also his groping at none dayes by questions what it mente by matters necessarie to saluation which is expressed off me in the very nexte diusioÌ„ and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuision Afterwarde when he setteth him selffe to proue that there is no one finde off gouernement certaine and vnuariable in the churche let yt be obserued how loosely aÌ„d childishelie he doothe yt For beside the firste reason which is a begging of that whiche is in questioÌ„ and the later reason drawne of the authoritie of maister Gwalier wherof he can haue no aduantage vnles with master Gwalter he will affirme that excommunication is not necessary nor yet conuenient vnder a Christien magistrate all the reste of his authorities drawne owte of M. Caluine the heluetian confession Bullinger are quite beside the cause For they are to proue that there may be a churche withowte excommunication As thowghe the question were what thinges the churche of those whiche be prescribed by the worde off God may wante aÌ„d yet be the churche of god and not what thinges yt owght to haue by the prescripte of the worde off god Or as thowghe the question were how sicke the churche might be and yet liue how meimed
aduantage considering that bothe the ceremonies are for a greate parte naught and the opinion off the necessitie off them a greate deale wors And Ieromes wordes also in tying the later churches vnto the customes off the ancient which are not against faith albeit they be smoothed by translatinge praesertim namely and with his exposition of matters off faith yet euen as they are set downe off him ouerthrowe the churches libertie in thinges indifferent For althowgh they should be inconuenient and vncomely yet the matter off inconuenience and vncomelines being by the Ans no matter off faith the churche must still be clogged with them nether can it by that rule shake them off There are a fourthe sorte of places owte of the aunciēte fathers wherin he putteth the greateste confidence and vpon which he hathe laide greateste weight and therfore by handes set ouer againste them moueth the reader to laie sure hould on them Thes places drawne owte off Ambrose vppon the Ephes and of Tertull de virginibus velandis that of Ambrose being as hathe bene shewed very corrupte is also a conterfaite as shall after be noted The other off Tertull is a flat and a plaine Montaniste yt is not vnknowne that Montanus helde that there was no sufficient instruction giuen by the Apostles vnto the churche but that there were onely certeine principles off Religion giuen by them being vnperfect and were afterwarde to be finished and polished by the conforter whiche himselfe did forge This poison Tertullian hauing druncke he lefte the Sauour off yt in diuers places but in no place more brimly then in this which maye appeare by the comparisons he vseth off likening the churche off God in the Apostels time vnto a tree whose fruicte was not blomed and vnto one which is in his base age and the churches after the Apostels times throwghe reuelatiōs suche as he imaginethe the Apostels were not hable to beare allwaies marching forward towardes a greater ripenes in fruicte and perfection in age And if the D. had bene a litle awakened he might haue smelt the fraude euen in thes wordes which he hathe bene ab vsed by For when he imagineth a nother rule off conuersatiō and leading of liffe of a Chirstian then that which hathe bene giuen he might haue iustly suspected the sentence seing the rule off conuersation comprehended in the commaundementes is vnchangeable And when he addeth that that should be doone by the grace off God receiuing increase dailie vnto the ende he did not obscurely touche the head off his error which is that there shall be still vnto the worldes ende greater graces off the spirite off God giuen to the churche generally then hathe bene before in the Apostels tymes Wherbie appeareth that the places which the A. will haue the reader laye so faste houlde of are thornes not to be once touched withowte a hedging gloue in one hande and a hatche◠in the other We willingly subscribe vnto the Iudgement off M. Caluin alledged here And where the Ans woulde make peraduēture the reader beleue that by the wordes off pollicie and gouernement lefte to the iudgement off the church Caluin meaneth to make thes pointes in cōtrouersie at the churches disposition it shall appeare bothe by his seuerall sentences of thes thinges that he holdethe them vnchangeable and by the exposition off M Beza his wordes the same in effect with thes off Maister Caluin which cometh after to be considered It remaineth that seing the answerer woulde oppresse vs with the authoritie off the fathers We consider whether there can be any fitter places browght for the maintenance off the Admonition then the A. hathe alledged for him Augustin VVhether yt be questiō off Christe or vvhethet yt be question off his churche or off vvhat thinge soeuer the question be off I say not yf vve but iff an angel from heauen shal tel vs any thinge beside that yovv haue receiued in the scriptures vnder the lavv and the gospell let hym be accursed And lest the Answ should restreine this generall saying vnto the doctrine of the gospell so that he woulde therby shut owte the discipline let him heare what Cyprian saithe The Christian religion saithe he shall fynde that ovvte off this scripture rules off all doctrines haue spronge and that from hence doothe springe and hether doothe returne vvhatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doothe conteine And euen Tertull himselffe before he was imbrued with this heresie off Montanus giueth testimonie vnto the discipline in thes wordes VVe maye not giue our selues this liberty to bringe in any thinge off our vvill nor choose any thinge that other men bringe in off their vvill vve haue the Apostels for autors vvhich them selues brought nothing off their ovvne vvill but the discipline vvhich they receiued of Christe they deliuered faithfully vnto the people And if the sentence were any thinge worthe which he browght in towching the discipline owt off Tertull yt maketh against him For in that he will haue that correction off the discipline to haue the authoritie of the holy goste speaking in his fantastical cōforter he declareth that it is not a thinge which hangeth vpon the will of mortal mē And that in indifferēt thinges it is not enowghe that they be not againste the worde but that they be accordīg to the worde yt may appeare by other places Wherehe saieth that vvhat soeuer pleasethe not the lorde displeaseth him and vvithe hurte is receiued And in another place he saithe that the scripture denieth that vvhiche yt noteth not And to come yet neerer where he disputeth against the wearing of crowne or garland which is indifferent off it selfe to those which obiecting asked vvhere the scripture saithe that a man might not vveare a crovvne he anwereth by asking vvhere the scripture saithe that they may vve are And vnto thē replying that yt is permitted vvhich is not for bidden he answereth that yt is forbidden vvhich is not permitted Whereby appeareth that the argument off the scriptures negatiuely holdeth not onely in the doctrine and Ecclesiasticall discipline but euen in matters arbitrarie and variable by the aduise off the church Where it is not enoughe that they be not forbidden vnlesse there be some word which dooth permit the vse of them yt is not enoughe that the scripture speaketh not against them vnlesse it speake for them and finally where yt displeaseth the Lorde which pleasethe hym not one must off necessitie haue the worde off his mouthe to declare his pleasure Whether I commonly vse to propounde thinges in controuersie in bare affirmacions or denials withowt reason and whether yowe applie the scriptures better then I and howe true yt is that yowe haue in yower former booke alledged more scriptures then I did in mine all which thinges this glosse affirmeth I leaue yt to the Iudgement off the reader Cap. 3. Diuision 1. pag. 100. IN the first whole page there is nothing to be answered yt being shewed
men beare witnes that bothe here and almoste euery where yow wringe my wordes clean contrary to my meaninge and therin I am well contente the Iudgemente remain with the reader And althowghe I am fully perswaded that ther was no occasion taken off euill by this doctrine yet if any weare it beinge the doctrine of the holy Goste whoso euer hathe taken occasion of euill hathe without repentance borne his punishemente and so shall yowe moste assuredly in that daye wherin the mouthe off wickednes shall be stopped Yt maie not be passed by that he in the begininge of the firste of thes sections matched the lawes off the Iewes whiche were the lawes gyuen by God him selfe vvithe the lawes of the moste barbarous and Prophane Tyrant that euer was suche is the reuerece he beareth to the lawes of god Note also that where I saie that I vvill ioyne vvithe him that the transgressions off the lavve vnder the gospell are to be seuerelyer punished then they vvere vnder the lavve He in pretendinge and makinge a brage that he woulde ioyne slyppethe me clean a syde and saythe that he will ioyne withe me that the magistrate is not bounde to the iudiciall lawe off Moses for the manner off punishinge as thowghe that were any thinge like that whiche I propounded And in that he answerethe no one worde to the two reasons whiche I alledged that is to saye for that bothe the knovvledge off the lavve is greater novve then thē and other gyftes off the spirite off God vvherby the lavve shoulde be better kepte more aboundantly povvred oute novve then then he dothe not onely slyppe a side but turnethe his blinde partes towardes me Nowe to returne backe to the Diuis pag. 123. I leaue to the iudgement off the reader howe importunate an aduersarie the D. is vvhich requireth answer of that which hath been so often answered In the next Diuis p. 124. seeking to mainteine his logicke in diuiding and defining he maketh him selffe pytifull to all that euer saluted that scoole For what an absurd saying is yt that becawse the definition off a generall thing agreeth vnto his particular therfore yt is the definition off the particular As though euery thing vvhich vvere verefied of an other were by and by the definition off it or as thoughe the same coulde be the definition of the generall and of the speciall And what a miserable defence of his diuisiō is yt which to proue that his three last partes are not conteined vnder the first alledgeth that they are not all one with the first But as I promised I will leaue this to the learned reader that I leese not the tyme in confuting off these tryfles The rest off his section is answered before In the next beside the sentence which I denie and he vntruly fathereth off Zuing. that in Ceremonies thinges are to be vsed in the church which are not conteined in the scriptures ▪ There is nothing which maketh any thing vnto the questiō For where he saieth that I mislike that of Zuing. If they be not repugnant to the vvord I haue tould him before that I neuer found fault with that but becawse he condēned the Ad. which will haue thē caste in the mould off the word off god And as for Maister Bezaes sentence repeted here off discipline left in the order off the church and that some thinges doon off the Apostles are not alvvaies to be follovved off vs whereby it seemed the D. would make the reader belieue that he meaneth this off the pointes of discipline nowe debated yff I should herein charge him with vntrue dealing vppon Maister Bezaes booke off epist. Which declareth in so many places and wordes that there is a Discipline off God left vnto his churche vnchangeable and precisely determined in the word off God and howe he maketh the partes thereoff the same which the D. fighteth against with might and maine he would paraduenture saie that he could take no notice off that which was not yet brought to light But when the same booke from whence he drewe thes outorities mainteneth those partes off discipline towching the Eldershipp the consent off the church in Eccesiasticall elections the right institution off Deacons c. as necessarye which he will haue arbitrarie he owght to haue vnderstanded that those thinges which M. Beza noteth vnder the name off Discipline left at the order off the church are nothing lesse then these which he would insinuate Which he might yet easelier haue vnderstanded by the place which he alledgeth out off the Corinthes that leaueth yt not in the churches power ether who shall gouerne or what they ought to doo which must gouerne but howe that gouernement which is prescribed may be vsed most decently in regard off circumstance off time c. For euen in that place the Apostle defining off certen pointes of discipline as that vvemen ought not to speake in the church c. declared sufficiently that he ment not to leaue the gouernement off the church in her owne disposition and order But what M. Beza ment by this arbitrarie Discipline yt shall yet better appeare in the next tractate off the Election off the church where this here spoken generally shall there belaied open by example the reste off this Diuis is answered In the next Diuis I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader whether I haue truly gathered off his wordes As for the defense he maketh to proue Truly and Purely all one for so he must if he mainteine his answer the first reason he bringeth that a man may preache true thinges and not truly is cleane ouerthrowne by his owne answ for to ouerthrowe that which he falsely attributeth vnto the Adm. that the word is not truly preached becawse the Ministers are not duely called he saithe that the reason is not Good becawse ho we wicked soeuer the man be which preacheth yet he may preache the true word off God. Here ether the Ans must make to preache true thinges and to preache truly all one or els he hath not answered to the argument he supposeth the Adm. to vse The other is for that S. Paul vseth these wordes in truthe for syncerely Wherein beside the former fault which is the contrarietie with him selfe he should haue learned that that maner off speach is taken off the Ebrues which as they call a lie not onely that which is spokē but that which is doon or imagined against the truthe so likewise contrary Which maner off speach not being receiued in our tounge is fondly and out off time pretended considering also that the translatiōs in our tounge as in others haue shunned that phrase as that which they could not reache vnto Tract 2. and 3. according to the D. Off election of the minister Cap. 1. Diuis 1. Off the Tryall off ministers in learning and conuersation THe replie standeth vpon the certeine and vnfallible grounde off the worde off God which is that the
greatly in suspition off error It is sufficient that the prouer be off moo eies seinge better then one be trewe for the moste parte which is the nature off a prouerbe And in makinge off lawes the lawe giuer respecteth what is for the most parte expediēte and not that whiche maie be good some times For otherwise it might be saied the bishoppe shoulde not medle withe the election but his chapleine because yt may happen that he is more hable to medle in that matter then the bishoppe It is no smale owtrage yowe doe the churche off God to accounte off yt as off an ignorante multitude For onlesse yowe meane the churche when yowe saye then a thowsand other whiche be ignorant yowe speake beside the matter seing wee doe not permitte either examination or election off the ministers to euery multitude and blinde assemblie but vnto those onely whiche make an open and cleare profession off the trewthe Therefore yowre glorious and great speaches alwaies off the Bishoppes are affectioned and aspire somewhether For yf they preceded off the feare off God yt can not be but that feare of God and spirite of humilitie whiche taughte yowe to speake so of them woulde haue spoken muche more reuerently off the churche whose seruantes they owghte to be And when yow saie or that in suche matters be farr inferior to him yff yow meane ten thowsand off those whiche be off the churche the voice is straunge and needed some reasons to acquainte vs with yt especially seinge it touchethe as yowe thinke the cause But yowe wander still and the prouer be yowe confute not For let yt be that the bishope seeth more then 10000. off the churche whiche proportion beinge more vnequall then that betwene the sonne and the mone carieth withe yt a sente off the popishe insolencie admitte I saie that the bishopes eie be so good yet if the churche haue anie eie at all that beinge ioined with his will see better then his alone And that is the meaninge of the prouerbe not to compare one good eie with manie bad but to shewe that that whiche alone i◠hable to doe somewhat withe company and helpe is hable to doe it better And therfore oneles yowe will haue yowre bishoppe so full off sighte that he can leaue no thinge vnseene and to haue receiued the spirite withowt measure which is onely proper vnto our sauiour Christe yowe haue yet browghte nothinge to shewe why he owghte not to haue the assistaunce off others in the examination off the minister S. Paule refusethe not to learne of the churche off God in those thinges wherin he wente as farr beionde the bishope as any bishope can goe beionde the simplest of his diocese Apollos was instructed and tawghte of a powre handycraftes man and his wiffe In the counsell of Nice a simple man and one that knewe nothinge but Iesus Christe bothe ouerturned ād turned a Philosopher whome all the 318. Bishopes coulde not moue bothe S. Paule and Apollos and the 318. Bishopes were off Singuler knowledge in those thinges wherin they were aided and desired to be aided off those which were a great deale inferior vnto them What honie haue our bishoppes eaten off that they can see so clearly into the fitnes off a minister that the churche off God can not bothe see that whiche they see and that also whiche they haue ouerseene Belike yt is because our bishopes are more sharper of Sighte then euer any were and our churches more ignorante then any haue bene before And if the churches were tawghte of them wherein they are for the moste parte smalliest beholdinge vnto them as the plentifull knowledge of the churche shoulde haue bene a seale of their aboundance so what soeuer is saide off the ignorance argueth nowe the wante of their knowledge and in the ende retourneth to the weight of their condemnation Which yff it were well considered of him yt semeth that for the ialousie he hathe ouer the estate of a Lorde Bishope he woulde haue spoken more reuerently off the churche Wheras yowe say that offices off greatest charge are onely in the Princes choise Still yowe confute your shadowe for I speake off those elections wherin diuers haue interest sainge that yt seldome commeth to passe that vppon one mans reporte off his habilitie vvhich is to be chosen all the reste vvhich haue interest in that election vvill giue theyr voices What worde is here which giueth occasion to speake off the princes elections which are made by her selfe alone yowe haue therfore picked a quarel to speake off the welbestowing of offices onles yt shoulde be some profit vnto yowr selfe which yow imagined might come by sprinckling off thes faire wordes I see no ende of yt sure I am yt is no answere vnto that which yt pretendeth For my parte I will not contrary that yow speake of the good bestowing off the offices by the prince And I am well assured that some of them be bestowed of moste worthye men But yt is good for princes to haue as it were eares off horne againste suche sweete songes as these be and notwithstanding them to stire vpp them selues to greater warenes in the bestowing off their offices Therefore to let passe the offices off charge in the com̄on wealth for the Ecclesiasticall charges which her maiestie bestoweth althowghe they be off the greateste porte yet they will appeare not off the greatest charge vnlesse yow meane charge actiuely that is to saye great charge and vnprofitable burden vnto the churche not bearinge the churche but borne of yt euen almoste to the breakinge off her backe And those also as I thinke are not chosen off the prince alone but named onlie and chosen off the canons off that sea wheroff he is to be appointed bishoppe and confirmed off the Archbishoppe But lett yt be here obserued that Maister D. seemeth by affirmation off this thing although falsely without saying any thing against yt to gïue the election off the bishop onely vnto the Prince whiche if he maie doe in the bishopes whiche he taketh head ministers muche more maie he doe it in the other ecclesiasticall orders which he accounteth vnder the bishope here first I woulde knowe wether he will stande to this or no or whether hauing nothinge to answere he vsed this for a shifte Then whether the Bishopes will take in good parte this translatiō of the churche righte into the handes of the ciuil magistrate ād whether for there tēporalties as it wer for a messe of rise potage they will suffer the churches inheritaunce to be thus riotowsly alienated to be offered where yt is not asked to be geuen where it is not receiued And iff they be contente to parte from this iff need be that they maie kepe thother or be contente that maister D. forrewarde off his proctorshipp shoulde haue the disposing off it at his pleasure then I shall haue something more to saie in this behalfe The election off ministers committed
to the bishoppes alone is made off custome that is twise a yeare at the least iff any come at the intreaty off some in authoritie of tentimes and not vpon any neede off the churche For when almoste is the request of suche as be in authoritie refused in that election In deede there is no extreme sute the doore is not so harde locked ther neadeth but the liftinge vp off the latche And yt is also I graunte withowt contention For howe can the bishope contende with him sele Vnles he and his conscience sometimes fall owte which cōtention is to be wisshed that it were greater And set me all the borowghes and cities together in the whole realme where elections passe by voice yowe shall finde they can not all afforde so many vnworthy officers as haue swarmed ministers from the sole election of the moste parte off the bishopes in Englande Yf yowr affirmaciōs be so clear that yowe dare com̄itte thē so barely withowte profe to the iudgemēt of mē I dare with better reason let these goe which are donne before the sonne in the conscience off all men which the brwte beastes them selues woulde witnes iff they coulde speake Yf he be condemned off the Apostell which iudgeth off one mans action before the time that is before he seeth what it i◠▪ what great presumption ys it thus to iudge the churche off God And therfore that I be no partaker off yowr sinne and plage which withowt repentance ensueth I answer that I thinke they will chuse the meteste that they will followe the lorde before the lorde of the towne yf the lorde off the towne drawe not with the Lorde that they will not doe one off their neighbours pleasure to the dishonour off the lorde and the hurte off all them selues and the whole congregation that the peace off God not contention will be in the churche off God that they being the church off God and the mysticall bodie off our fauiour Christe shall haue an hable and fit pastor if they haue one lyke vnto them selues and so shal be like people like pastor And iff a whole churche assembled together in the feare off God with inuocation off his name be ouercaried by affection off loue or feare to chose him that ys vnmeet the bishope maie muche more beinge but one man subiecte to the same passions they be onles yow can happely shewe some prerogatiue to exempte him from the common infection So for any thinge yet alleadged the lighte off reason rather fauoureth the election off the minister by many then by one Nowe let vs see whether the holie scriptures wheruppon wee laie the weighte off this election receiue any better answer To youre answere to the ◠and sixte off the Actes yow haue my replye before And where yow add further to the firste off the Actes that Maister Beza saithe that they were not presented by the multitude but by the Apostels onely I know not wherfore yow shoulde bringe that in For I say not that the multitude had the presentation yt appeareth manifestly that no one had the handlinge of that action which striketh the bishopes sole election to the harte yt appeareth also that the iudgement and consente of the churche was required which is that wee desire Maister Beza writeth thus Augustine vvith vvhome this vvhole chapiter is reade very corruptly interpreteth this vvorde they set vpp he set vp not vvithovvt a daungerous error for here vvas nothinge done off Peter by him selfe as one endevved vvith greater dignitie but euerie thinge is done publikely and by voices off the vvhole churche Vppon the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he saithe thus The strenght off this vvorde vvhich is to ordeine by voices is to be noted that vve maye knovve that Paule and Barnaba◠did nothīg by their ovvne priuate pleasure nor exerciced no tyrāny in the churche as the Romishe Harlot dothe novve and his assistants vvhich they call ordinaries And in other place vppon the wordes lay not thy handee suddenly vpon any c. That is saithe he admitte not all vvithovvt choise to any Ecclesiasticall function as muche as in the liethe For all the authoritie vvas not in Timothie but after the election made by voices off the vvhole churche as vve haue saide of the electiō in the 14. of the Actes ād as appeareth by the election off Matthias and the Deacons he that gouerned the cōpanie in the name of the vvhole Eldershipe did by the putting on off his handes consecrate hym that vvas chosen And in an other place were the apostle willeth Titus that he shoulde appointe elders tovvne by tovvne he referreth the reader to his exposition off the place off the 5. to Timothy and the 14. off the Actes And in the same chapiter owte off the whiche maister D. hathe borowed this place he sheweth that albeit all those thinges are not allwaies to be followed whiche were done in the apostolicall elections notwithstanding that they had one vnchangeable ende and asking what that was he answereth amongest other this that nether pastors nor Deacons shoulde be thruste vppon the flocke againste the vvill theroff And after in the same chapiter he saithe plainely that it is tyranny that the gouuernours off the churche shoulde be geuen vnto the churche vvithovvte the consent theroff also that it belongethe to the Presbytery to choose the offices off the churche when they be voide There are a nomber off moe places to be foūde in hī to this pourpose that I may leaue owt heare it epistle in his boke of epist. because I suppose yt is in euery mans handes which is moste cleare for the deciding of this cōtrouersie To come therfore to the examination off this dealinge fyrste in that he saith that it had bene a dangerous error if S. Peter had done any thinge off his ovvne authoritie withowt the assistance of other the Apostels in that he saithe that Timothie had not not onely not the election off the ministers but not the ordination in his povvre but that whiche he did he did in the name off the reste off the eldershipe and in that he saithe yt belongethe chefly to the office of the elders to chuse the offices of the churche as ofte as they be voide and addethe that he neuer founde in any Christian churche established that kinde off election vvhiche is in the povvre one yt is cleare that he vtterly condemnethe as altogether vnwonted as vsurped as tiran̄icall that election whiche is made by the bishope alone and that this is one of the substantiall poinctes off a lawfull Ecclesiasticall election that it be donne by the Eldership Secondly in that he saithe yt vvas the vnchangable pourpose off the Apostels to prouide that the gouernours off the churche shoulde not be thruste vppon the churche againste her vvill that Paule and Barnabas to then-tente they vvoulde bringe in no tyrannie into the churche permitted the election off the elders vnto the voices theroff
that they bringe tyranny vnto the churche vvhiche vvithovvte the coÌ„sent of the multitude at their one pleasure call any vnto a publike function in the churche yt is moste manifeste that maister Beza holdethe this for an other substantiall poincte off a lawfull Ecclesiasticall electioÌ„ in a church established that yt be made with the peoples coÌ„sente So that yt appearethe that the election made by the Bishope alone receiueth off Maister Beza twoo deadly woundes as yt were in the harte and in the heade one for that it is not as well done by the authorite off the Eldershipe as by the bishoppe or pastor an other bicause yt is not done by the consente off the churche Nowe what doe wee require in the election off Ecclesiasticall officers which Maister Beza dothe not wee require that yt be not permitted to one he detestethe it as tyrannie we saie that yt oughte to be done by the elder shipe and by consente at the leste off the people he saithe the same What are the thinges then vsed in the Apostels elections that M. Beza saithe may be altered and wheroff there is no certeine rule prescribed whiche the churche is allwaies bounde to followe forsouthe thes thinges as may be easely gathered that where sometimes the people vppon particular occasions did first chuse and the approbation off the gouernours did followe other some times and for the moste parte the gouernours wente before and directed the iudgementes off the people that in this circunstance the churche shoulde be at her libertie to order and vse whiche off theis waies she shoulde thinke moste fâ—tte hauinge regarde to the times and other circumstaÌ„ces whiche mighte moue to take ether the one or the other Againe where the GreciaÌ„s vsed in their elections the cerimonie off holdinge vpp the hande to testifie their liking off him that was chosen other as the Romains goinge from one syde vnto an other Whereoff cam pedibus ire in sententiam others by silence did approue that whiche was propounded that in thes and suche lyke the churche mighte vse that ceremonie whiche is bothe receiued in that place and leste subiecte to slaunderous speache And that whiche the Answ hathe browghte here dothe especially belonge vnto this and is geuen off M. Beza where he shewethe that the manner off the Asians was to testifie there consente by liftinge vp of handes But off what thinges so euer in the election that rule is giuen Yt can by no means take awaye the election from the Eldershipe off euery churche nor the peoples consente to put all in the Bishopes hande Seinge that as hathe bene shewed he makethe these twoe substantiall poinctes off a lawfull ecclesiasticall election And if the Answ will accorde vs those wee shall soone agree for the reste Vppon all this matter I leaue to the reader to esteme howe ether vncircunspectly or vnfaithfully M. S. hath not borowed but taken awaye whether Maister Beza wil or no his senteÌ„ces to ouerthrowe that whiche he so often times and in so vehement wordes so plainly dothe establishe Nowe for your questions yowe praie me to answere althowghe they come so often that yow maye aptelier be called the Questioner then the Ansvverer and that I neede not by any order off disputation be driuen to speake to suche flying demaundes yet I am contente to let yow vse this aduantage off venting them after this sorte which yow can not put in any forme off argument and whiche beinge a litle streighte girte shrinke a waie or euer they come to be examined But I muste praie yow also that where yowr questions be no weightier yow will be contente that I answer them as shortly as yow propownde them Albeit I haue in effecte answered them already in this section I saie therfore that where the Apostles in the firste off the Actes good before the reste off the churche and directe them that is the moste conuenient waie for ordenary elections as that whiche was bothe moste vsed in the Apostolicall elections and whiche is borne vp by apparante reason whiche is that they shoulde shewe the waie to others which are likeste to knowe it best And wheras the people present firste and then the Apostels approue after for as muche as that roose of a particular occasion whiche was for that the Apostels dealing was somewhat suspected as not altogether indifferent but to muche bending to the poore off theire one nation yf the lyke case shoulde fall the like remedy may be vsed beside that that election off the Deacons might be more safely committed vnto the people then that off the pastors the people being more able to iudge off their abilitie in disposing off the mony then off the knowledge required for the preaching off the word The casting off the lottes for so muche as yt was to this ende that the election off an Apostle shoulde be immediatly from God and not by any mans voice that consideratioÌ„ ceassing the lot also in ecclesiasticall elections howesoeuer yt semeth otherwise to some owghte to die In the sixt off the Actes the imposition of handes being vsed in all elections by the churche and hauig a profitable aduertisement that he whiche is ordeined is sett a parte from the rest for the seruice off the churche and that from thence forthe he muste not serue him selffe and his but the churche and conteining also an assurance off the lordes hande and helpe alwaies readie in assisting of him muste needes be holden still for ordenary to be vsed in all elections The praier be fore the lot in the 1. of the Actes being expressedly vsed in all elections And being nowe by so muche more necessary then it was then as the habilitie is lesse nowe in the chusers then yt was then muste needes be thoughte a paterne to frame owre elections by And where yow saie ther was no suche thinge as praier in the 〈◊〉 off the Actes yt is a token yow haue litle truthe in yow whiche will denie that whiche is expressed manifestly in the texte for although S. Luke doeth not declare what were the wordes they vsed yet there being praier made for them there was suche a thinge That in the 1. Act. twoo were presented for one office that was that waie mighte be made to the deuine election by lotte that one onely was taken was becawse there was but one place voide That in the sixte of the acres 7. were presented was becawse the church was thowght to haue neede off so manie for the prouysion off their poore that all were ordeined was for that the Apostels liked well off them all Be there yet any more behinde I loked when yow shoulde saye that in the firste off the actes there was a bowte sixe score in the sixte almoste six thowsande there but eleuen Apostles here twelue there speaking withe one tonge here with many For the matters in controuersy that is to saie whether the peoples consente is to be had c.
some reason and will yow cast yt awaie with a worde But the order of trying his gifte off expounding is good and for the moste parte necessarie For althowghe yt may be perceiued by questioning shortly with him what his vnderstanding is in the misterie off Christ yet his vtterance disposition and memorie giftes necessarie for a minister can not be tried but by suche a profe or by long acquaintaunce with him which can be seldome betwene the ordeiners and him that is to be ordeined And iff in well ordered cities ther is no man admitted to set vpp in any mysterie onlesse he haue offered to the Maisters off the companie some worke for a masterpeece and declaration that he hathe skil in that he will open his shop for how muche more in the ministerie off God owght it to be prouided that before he be allowed to worke in the great misterie off our saluation and laye hand to the framyng of the siluer vessels of the church off God the maisters off the companie especially whiche are the Elders off the church being best able to iudge owght to haue triall how he handleth the goulden hammer off the word off God. But if M. D. which at other times loseth the corde off lawfull vocation will here to pinche me vvith all girde it so streight I answere that neither he which is to be admitted doth it withowt vocation being therunto called by those whiche haue to doo in the electiō nether doo they admit him withowt warrant of the word of god For the lord in com̄aunding to take a sufficient triall of his abitilie ād that precisely before he be admitted doth in that commaundement include all thinges that pertaine therto For as vvhen any peace off grownd is giuen vnto one ther is also a waye to come vnto it graunted withall althowghe the same be not mentioned so the lord in giuing to his church power to trie his ministers can not by any meanes bethowght to haue hedged vp the way which leadeth neerest vnto that triall And beside the reason heroff owt off the word off God ioyned with the practise off diuerse churches We haue plaine examples in the scripture as I haue shewed in my former booke And how dothe not the A. here condemne manifestly the exercise of common place vsed in the vniuersities wherin younge men that they might he better prepared for the ministerie do interprete in there courses the scriptures which haue no admittance or ordination vnto the ministerie I will let yow passe heere with this contrarietie with yowr selffe that yow graunt to euery minister the rule off his flock whiche deni it so stoutlie in other places where yow giue it to the Bishops and Archbishops If yow had found suche a one in me yow would haue made suche hue and crie sufficient to haue raised a whole countrey But I will not presse your contrarieties but wher they be pregnant And so I leaue it to the iudgement off the indifferent reader how well the answerer hathe mainteined the wantes off the booke which were by me in this behalffe assigned Their wordes are to be seene my replie and your answer let the world iudge what forehead there is in him which saith they condemne all as euill and as vnlearned lest I spend moe wordes in prouinge that it is light at noone daies There is more likelehoode that for want of iust triall they might be thowght to denie a lawfull callinge to those which are admitted by the common order But it followeth not theroff that they saie there are none lawfullie admitted for the cause before alledged And it is vnreasonable yow should charge them vvith that vvhich I vvrite or vvith that the second admonition vvriteth Touching the nombre off sufficient ministers in Fraunce I wrote that vvhich I receiued wether it be trew or no it may easely be knowen of those vvhich vvill enquire off it Take yow good leaue to speake all good off the vniuersitie it shal be my recreation after your importunate barkinges yt is my dailie praier it may goo well with her and althowghe I be from her yet I caried some of her boweles vvith me so that whether there be in her either iust cause of ioye or sorowe I haue them in com̄on with her I can take no exceptiō vnto yowr 450. vniuersitie preachers not hauīg the register of the vniuersitie but yow did warely saie knowē preachers and not godly preachers for some of those haue troubled the vniuersitie and other places with popishe leauen of pargatorie free will ād Abrahams besome cut owt by a larger measure then euer our sauiour Christ taught But to le◠the corruption off some and the inhabilitie off other some with the so rare preachinge off certeine that as at the appearinge off a comete or blasinge starr or some other notable change in the heauens so at their preaching there may be feare off some calamitie to come to let all those goe to helpe to make vp this garlond off 450. yow owght not haue forgotten to subducte those which are taken awaie by death those vvhich are thrust owt off the ministerie and musled by the bishops those which are mued in cloisters those which beside the necessarie vse off the vniuersitie remaine there and those vvhich hauing charges in the countrey lurke there These being subducted excepte the accomptes doo rise better then yow shew I feare me that I may cut of from the numbre of 2000. hable ministers in the whole church of Englād which I assigned before as many as yow take from that nombre which I reported to be in Fraunce And alas what are these fiue loues and 2. fishes to so many thowsand churches So that if yow had not doone it at vnwares and had not had an other ende then is false owt we should haue had to thāke yow for this leuie of ministers vvhich the vniuersity hathe bred as that which strēgtheneth the fewnes off hable ministers which I assigned M. D. hand is still on his halfepennie and as Plautus Euclio he suspecteth euery man for his treasure and by putting his hand so often to the sore vvhen he is not touched he declareth plainely vvhat is the greife The feare of spoile off the churches goodes is not vvithowt cause But there was no cause to suspecte it in the Innes off court which off their yearly exhibitions giuen to mainteine there studies haue erected vp three diuinitie lectures more for any thing I know then all the bishops haue doone Therfore yow euill requite this liberalitie with such suspitions Yf the Centurion deserued praise for building a Synagoge and is cōmended by the holie Gost to all posteritie for his liberalitie in prouidinge a place for the preachinge off the word then they for there liberalitie in prouidinge for the minister him selfe deserued a better gratulation then this Yf they had throwen in somewhat into the Corban and botomlesse bagge it should haue bene counted to them for
of the electe church of God yet that foundation alwaies remaineth that when the question is of an others mans election God knovveth vvho are his So that yow can draw no argumeÌ„t from his election which is vncertaine vnto vs to conclude a certeine election vnto the ministerie Againe why doo yow saie he that is a membre off the inuisible maye be a minister in the visible as thowghe the inuisible church were off some higher nature then the visible or as thowghe the trew membres off the visible church did not make one misticall bodie off Christ with the inuisible Therfore when all commeth to all the reason is nothing els but he is a membre off the church ergo he is fit to be a minister off the church which is very absurd For by this meanes all good order off discipline is troubled in howse and in common wealthe The maister which hath bene deceiued off his seruant which he moste put in trust as for example in the office off stewardship if he giue good tokens off repentance must off necessitie restore him to his place For will he seclude him from his stewardship whom Christ dothe receiue into his kingdome and shall not we think him to be a meete officer in his maisters howse albeit he haue committed adulterie with his mistres which is a membre off the electe churche off Christ And this reason standing common wealthes must goo vpside downe for besides that all those lawes are condemned which debarre men from certeine freedomes and honours which haue bene stained with especiall vices as he that is once conuinced off periurie from bearing witnesse at any tyme c. there maie none either traitor or murtherer be put to death if he be repentante For his pardon is caselie pleaded by the Answ rule that if he be meete to dwell in heauen he is meete to remaine vppon earth and if the lord giue him euerlasting liffe should we denie vnto him this traÌ„ssitorie liffe And not that onely but if he had had an office before it is meete he shoulde be restored to it againe If this be an absurde and anabaptisticall kind off reasoninge in the discipline off the howse and gouernment off the common wealth how is it not the same in the discipline of the church And iff yow sticke so hard to the example off God it is not hard to shew how that the lord remitting the faulte vnto his children vppon their repentance hathe notwithstandinge kept them in sharpe discipline for their faultes all the daies off their liffe bothe in there owne persons and sometimes in there childreÌ„s and in all that belonged vnto them so that yf yow will needes tie the church to the example off goddes mercie and forgiuence that dothe not onelie not hinder these chastismentes and church discipline but also extendeth it further then the church or the coÌ„mon wealth may doo The holie goste by Iethro prescribinge what officers should be chosen dothe not onelie require that they should feare God which is to saie be of good religioÌ„ be wise and valiaÌ„t but also requireth that they be trustie which as appeareth by other places off the Scripture where this here commaunded was put in execution signifieth suche as were faithfull and trustie to the commonwealth and which had of their former life giuen good argumentes off there fastnes that way Therfore if in choise to the greate and weightie charges off the coÌ„mon wealth it is not enoughe that they be of good Religion able also for their wisdome and courage off minde to execute vnlesse they haue bene founde faithfull in that estate wherin they haue liued before how muche more owght that to be obserued in committing the greatest charge that is vnder the sonne which is the Ministerie off the worde And if in common wealthes men vvill committe no greate trust vnto him which hathe deceiued the trust which was put vppon him how much more owght that to be obserued in the church Where as the losse and daunger is greater so owght the trust to be slower and the parties to whom it shoulde be committed more vnsuspected And yet for further confirmation he must vnderstand that for as muche as our Sauiour Christ and S. Paule require that a minister off the word off God should be faithfull in his office as those to whom the choise belongeth owght to haue regard to his former sobrietie continencie in liffe and other vertues to induce them selues to a good persuasioÌ„ off him towching those vertues so owght they vppon his former life to gather suche argumentes of his faithfullnes and trust as therby they may be able to meintaine a stronge and mightie presumption off the faithfullnes which is to come vvhich thinge vvhen they can not doo in one vvhose vntrustines is freshe before their eies they can not haue sufficient testimonie to perswade their conscience that he is of that trust to whoÌ„ they may comÌ„it the church of god For if they looke vpon repentance vvhich he professeth it coÌ„meth alwaies to minde that countenaÌ„ce the eies do lie oftentimes and mouth oftenest off all And albeit vppon good and likelie tokens the church owght to thinke it a trew repentaunce yet it can not be so sure thereoff as it is off the vnfaithfulnes So that in vveighing the repentaunce which is vncertaine vvith the counterpoise of his vnfaithfulnes that is certaine it will be harde to conceiue that strenght of opinion off his â—â—faithfulnes wherupon they may aduenture to put him againe in trust with the church At the leste if there be one fit for the Ministerie which neuer was stained with that fault all men must needes graunt that he is meeter to satisfie the consciences off the chusers then the other vvhich the Ans denieth And as before I haue shewed that the exaÌ„ple of our Sau. Christ in putting S. Paule and S. Peter into the ministerie is not to be folowed off vs So vppon the matter I haue here alledged it may easelie appeare vvhy That is to say for as muche as he knew the harte off man and sawe their cogitations longe before they were conceiued he needed not any time to trie how they vvould behaue them selues in their ministerie nor any either Testimonies or argumentes of former liffe to helpe his persuasion off their fitnes thereunto Therfore he knowing both by the fulnes off the spirite off discretion gyuen hym vvithowt measure and by his diuine knowledge how faithfullie they vvould employe themselues in that mynistrye mighte vvell open the dore vnto those againste vvhom the churche owghte to kepe yt shutte If any man vvoulde here excepte againste this answer vvith the example of Iudas vvhich did so traiterously behaue hym selfe in his office yt ys not vvorthe the answer For vvho knoweth not that that was doone that the Scripture mighte be fulfilled and that for that cawse our Sauiour Christe forseinge the treason to come did notwithstandinge gyue him a place in
the goulden calfe for a token ād signe of the presence of god called yt by the name off god now hauing no reason but off the papistes onely to vvarante this opinion off his accustomed lyberalitie in giuing that vvhiche he can not holde he admitteth for soothe that yt is metonimically spoken yet after that by force off the trewthe yt is vvrithen from him he reachethe owte his hande after yt saying that yt is but a coniecture yt is a certeine trewthe M. W. and no coniecture standinge not vppon the iudgemente off men whiche I coulde alledge of diuers lerned that haue writtē of that place but vpon vnfailible reasons wheroff that is one which I haue alledged off the vsuall phrase off the scripture in speaking of signes And iff it had beene lawfull for them to haue likened the maiestie off God vnto a calfe or to haue had suche a token off the presence off God it had not bene vnlawfull to haue called yt Sacramentally by the name off God. Moreouer forasmuche as the knowledge off God is a habyte whiche god gyuethe by lytle and lytle throwghe teachinge yt is impossible that the Israelites so well instructed and hauing gyuen also good experience before that they knewe the trewe God shoulde so sodenly at one instante so many leese all that knowledge off God and take a calfe to be that whiche browghte them owte off the lande of Aegypte but as yt cam by litell and litle so it muste of necessitie haue a tyme wherby it mighte by litle and litle be loste And hetherto is referred that which Maister Caluine alledgeth off the consente off the people to that whiche Aaron saide off kepinge holy daie vnto the lorde wherby they declared that they helde that for good whiche Aaron saide Further if the Israelites had taken the calfe for their God Moses in gyuing them yt to drinke after he had betē it to powder should haue driuen them to a greate synne and haue killed their consciences in compellinge them to drincke that whiche they were perswaded to be a peece of the true God which browghte them owte of Aegypte Whiche thinge when no man of any knowledge can saie yt is certeine that Moses did thinke that the Israelites did knowe that the calfe was not the true god Beside that albeit Aaron faulted greuously yet it is great iniurie doone vnto him to thinck that euer he woulde haue either cawsed or consented a calfe to be made if he thowghte that the Israelites woulde haue taken that for the true god yea after they had vttered that voice Thes are they Gods c Yt is saide that Aaron seinge that made an altar before the calfe Whiche he woulde neuer haue doone if he had vnderstanded the Israelites as the D. doothe I had not the texte before me when I wrote but I tooke the sense which I was well assured off Seinge they bothe consented to Aaron saying ye shall kepe holy day to the Lorde and did so Therfore allthowghe it be subiecte to the reprehension off a cauiller yet I altered nothinge off the meaninge off the place in that I set downe that the Israelites saide they vvould kepe holy day to the Lord. I put yow ouer to the learned writers and now I haue toulde yow off twoo which doo in plaine wordes whet their stiles directly againste yowr distinction Yow mislike off the distinction but yow are driuē to vse yt yow excuse not the papistes but yow lessen their cryme and therfore yow may well be called their Patron For yt is a precepte amongest the Rethoricians that iff the clients fault be apparante the aduocate shoulde confesse it and then employe the strenghte off his witte to cawse it seme as lytle as maie be And where in the distinctiō of degrees off Idolatrie yow saie that the Iewes did oftentimes offende in the laste and the worste and the Papistes not yow in deede saie it ād saie it againe but yow bringe nothinge to proue yt once I coulde replie that the Papistes vsed more detestable Idolatrie then euer did the Iewes For shewe me by any good authoritie or reason that the Iewes did euer thinke or teache that a deade Image off wood and stone shoulde be worshipped with the honor off the holy trinitie and this notwithstandinge is tawghte off the Papistes Or shewe me where euer the Iewes did worshippe so vile a thinge as a peece off breade whiche receiued into the stomacke is after caste into the priuie And as yt can not be denied but they take that breade for the verie God whiche made heauen and earthe So I am perswaded that yt can neuer be shewed that the Iewes were euer so grosse to beleue that anie symple creature seen with their eies was the liuinge God. The Ans bindethe well in the endè withe his therfore yf they repente c. Wherfore because their Idolatrie is not so greate as that off the Iewes as if their mercie whiche they receiue vppon repentance depended vppon the smalnes or greatnes off their Idolatrie or as if the Iewes which repented off their Idolatrie receiued not mercie likewise Verily I can see no bande to tiethis therfore with that whiche wente before yt is a weffe not worthe the takinge vpp For what needed this nowe thrise at the leste that they are not to be reiected owte off the churche as iff any denied that but where yow add nor owte off the ministerie if yow mean off suche as haue fallen from the gospell and mynisterie especially to Idolatrie I can not beare yow it is to heauy a cōclusiō for so weake premisses for Maister D. is to muche abused if he thincke that the same kaie openeth the doore off the Ministerie and the churche doore Where he snatcheth at the exāple of Aaron who after that he fell was receiued into the preisthood againe which he did before in the example off S. Paule that I browghte forthe he declareth what a hongrie cause he hathe whiche is gladd to pull the meate oute off the fire that yt fedethe on But alas this helpethe not for it is a singular example and maie not be drawne into imitation At which answer my thinke I see the D. buskell and prepare him selfe to crowe saying that so all maie be wiped whatsoeuer is browghte I will not doo therfore as yow to whom yt is enowghe to saie vvithowte proofe but vvill shewe the reason whiche onles yow reste in yowe shal haue the cōtrouersie vvithe yowr selfe yowr self affirme that the lawe in Ezech. and in the booke of the kinges towchinge the not admittinge of the Leuites to the ministerie is a iudiciall lawe of Moses and gyuē to the Israelites onely whiche if yt be trewe yt being generall muste needes comprehend the faulte off Aaron And therfore yt followeth that the admittance off Aaron to his ministerie againe beinge directly contrarie to the lawe was by an especiall dispensation Moreouer Aaron beinge appointed to the ministerie immediatlie
and by the expresse mouthe off God I see not what man coulde put him owte off yt withowte the same authoritie whiche put him in Laste off all it is verie probable that vvhere yt is saide in an other place that Moses stood vp and praied for Aaron then Moses receiued answere what shoulde be doone withe Aaron towchinge his continuance in the ministerie Where yowr glosse in the ende supposeth contrarietie seinge yt settethe downe none I haue not to answere yt may be the A. lawghed vvhen he vvrote that vvherby he requireth sincere dealing in the scriptures For if this be sitting in his mouthe vvhich corrupteth in a manner all he toucheth vvhy should not also a light housewiffe talke of the chastitie off a graue matrone The nexte diuis belonging vnto the 6. Tract off vnpreaching ministers shall there God vvilling be answered Off election off Ministers vn voices or other consente off the people Chap. 4. pag. 155. IF Chrysostome had had anie thinge to saie towching the election off Deacons he shoulde haue spokē vvhen tyme was and when that place was handled Yet for answere the reader maye vnderstand that Chrysost in that place makethe comparison betwen the election in the firste off the Actes and this and sheweth howe the Apostels did otherwise there then here For there they chose two vvhiche they set vpp before the churche So that vvhen Chrysost saithe the Apostels myght haue chosen the deacons yt may be he meaneth they might haue chosen them as they did the two Mathias and Barsabas In whiche choise I haue shewed the consente off the people was required Yff there were but this place whiche the D. citeth I woulde stande vpon this answer but considering that Chrys in another place affirmeth that Peter might haue chosen him selfe which I would not kepe from the knowledge off the reader I will not denie but that Chrysost might haue heere the meaning the D. supposeth Wherto as I can by no meanes agree vpon the reasons both before and after alledged so the D. is not helped For when Chryso commendeth Peter that he did all thinges by the aduise off the churche nothing off his ovvne autoritie nothing vvith dominion When he addeth also that the same was to auoide contention and that nether he nor the reste off the Apostles should be thovvght to chuse off fauour he declareth sufficiently that there is no bishop of that ether authoritie or holines off life vvhich in making the election without consente of the church dooth not bothe laie him selfe and his ministery open to suspiciō of parcialitle and giue occasion off pernicious debates in the churche He shoulde also vnderstande that this proportion is vneuen and that if yt were granted whiche he desyrethe yet he is not where he woulde be For iff it were lawfull for the Apostels indued with extraordinarie giftes off discretion off spirites to chuse yt foloweth not therfore that one Bishopp may doo so And because yt was lawfull for the 12. Apostels to chuse them withe whome they were dailie conuersante therfore it is lawfull for one bishoppe to chuse those whiche he neuer see nor knewe before Before I goo any further yt is to be obserued that althowghe the Ans holde owte in the defense off this cawse off election by the Bishope certeine wordes of learned mē racked from their meaninge and contrarie to the continual practise off the authors yet the trwthe is that as this assertion is the Papistes and Papistes againste the Protestantes so all his principall bothe argumentes and solutions haue bene worde for worde ministred vnto him owte off the bokes off the ranckeste enemyes off the trwthe Yff the reader will see this question diducted at large betwene the catholikes and the papistes let hym reade Hosius and Phigius in thes bokes which I haue noted I will onely note the places whēce the Ans argumētes are fetched with his startinge holes vvherwithe he vvoulde abuse the worlde And firste off all Marsilius a Catholike whome the lorde had stirred vpp to mainteine the trwthe off the Gospell Aboute the time off Pope Iohn the 12. disputinge againste the sole election off the bishope vsethe this reason whiche wee haue heere in hande namelie that forasmuche as the churche chose here Deacons as it appearethe in the Actes therfore yt owghte muche more chuse her mynisters This reason Phigius as the D derideth no more hable to answer yt then he The manifeste wordes off the texte are that Paule and Barnabas ordeined elders by voces neither is there any learned and godlie man browghte or as Iam perswaded can be browghte that euer denied that the churches were in election off their ministers ioyned with Paul and Barn. That Zuingl saithe some were called to the ministerie off the worde by the Apostels onely what is yt to proue that Paule and Barnabas did here in this place ordeine myinisters withowte the voices off the churche yt is well therfore M Zuing. hath expressed whiche the D. hathe vnfaithfully holden backe who translatinge whole pages to no purpose coulde not here aforde vs one poore sentence off the lengthe off two lines The other halfe off the sentence is this As saithe he vvhen by the decree off the Apostels Peter and Iohn vvere sente vnto Samaria Marcke I beseche yow what manner of election this was The Apostels chose two but suche as were approued mynisters before what is this to proue that the byshope maie chuse those whiche were neuer approued or chosen vnto the ministrie The Apostels chose them to goe an embassage whiche shoulde be ended in a fewe daies and what is that to proue that a bishoppe maie chuse to a perpetuall function The Apostels did yt withowte the consente off that churche vnto whiche that matter did not belonge what is that to proue that the bishope maie chuse a minister withowte the consente off that churche whiche that election dothe concerne for that electiō belonged not vnto the churche of Ierusalem where they were if yt had there is no doubte but the Apostels woulde not haue doon yt withowte the cōsente therof I leue here to speake of the difference of bishop and Apostel off twelue and one whiche beinge obserued in the former section needeth no rehersall And as this maketh nothinge for the election off the bishope so yt maketh against that for the whiche this place is browghte For iff maister Zuing. had bene off that iudgemente that Paule and Barnabas did by them selues chuse withowte the churche he woulde likely haue browghte that example cōsideringe that this can not be properly called any election to the Mynistrie whiche was off those which were ministers before But that yow may yet better knowe the D. vnfaithfull dealinge ioined with shameles bouldnes off alledging authoritice I will set downe Maister Zwinglius iudgemente in this cause which he vttereth in diuers places off that booke owte off whiche the D. hathe alledged this but most manifestly within les
and Doctors as thowghe it belōged vnto the churche and the churche had put yt ouer vnto them Yt is enoughe for me that the churches subscription was there and that not for a cyphre Therfore althowghe S. Luke for shortnes sake did call yt the decree off the Apostels and Elders yet S. Paule whiche gaue them to the churches and whiche in other places standeth so muche vppon the authoritie off the churches to stoppe the mowthe off the contentious did not by all likelihood omyt the authoritie off the churche to gyue them the more grace withe the churches vnto the whiche he delyuered them The Ans whiche will proue nothinge him selfe but off whome wee muste take all moste althinges at his bare worde hathe notwithstandinge a great grace in settinge me to proue all thinges be they neuer so manifeste Let him then vnderstande that this whiche he requirethe profe off is confirmed by the authoritie off maister Cal. and maister Bulling The manner off speache also is in Liuy where the consul is sayed to set vp an other consul into the place off him whiche was dead when he did yt not by his owne authoritie onely but by voices off the Senate and people Yf the Answ coulde haue firste gyuen his reader a drinke off the riuer off forgetfulnes to haue made him forgette what he owghte to proue peraduenture this talke off his mighte haue some ende but iff he carie in minde that he hathe to proue that almoste al ecclesiasticall writers doo affirme the word liftihg vp of handes to be vsed in the scriptures for the solemne manner off ordeining ministers by imposition off handes and not for the election by voices I say iff he cary this in minde he shall perceiue easely howe idle for the moste parte this talke is And verily all thes authorities here browghte are either vaine or directly againste him selffe or in sufficient to proue that whiche he vndertaketh For to what pourpose are here alledged two places owte off maister Caluin two Canons gyuē to the Apostels and the Testimonie off Ierome They proue that lftiing vp off handes is taken in ecclesiasticall writers for imposition off handes whiche is confessed by me in plaine wordes But to the perfourmance off your promise that almoste all the ecclesiasticall writers affirme that this worde is so taken in scripture yet there is not one syllable In this rancke also off idle testimonies is that whole section off maister Gualter For I confessed him to thincke that the word was so taken but yet so that withall he ioyneth the election off the people by voices Whiche the Answ woulde by that signification off the worde ouerthrowe So that all thes browght in off the D. looke another waie then he woulde haue them That the Canons attributed vnto the Apostels make not to proue the sole election off a bishoppe shall be discussed after here it is onely sufficiente to haue shewed that they make not to proue that whiche the Ans alledged them for Wherin I meruaile also what he meaneth to aske leaue of me that yt may be as lawfull for him to vse them as it is for me as if I had vsed them otherwise thē I owght I neuer vsed them as the naturall canons of the Apostels I haue shewed that they are not nor can not be theirs but as the Canōs off other Councels where amongest the bad there are founde some good And I neuer vsed them but where I confirmed by Testimonie off the worde off God that vvhich I bringe them witnesse for Therfore this phrase beinge vsed thrise or fowre times withowte all occasion argueth hym to be a vaine trifler whiche becawse he hathe nothing to answere gyueth hym selfe the bridle to forge and surmise all maner off vntrwthes And where by this preface yt semeth the man woulde haue stricken this matter as dead as a dore naile yet hauing leaue to vse them he hathe not so muche as once come neere vnto the matter ▪ onely he hathe gained some fewe lines to encrease his confused heape The next rancke is of those whiche are not onely not profytable but directly hurtefull vnto his cause In whiche number is the witnes off Maister Bull. that vvorde vvhich signifieth lifting vp of handes is so placed that vve may vnderstande either that they vvere chosen by voice off the people or ordeined by laying on off handes especially if he had added the fowre next wordes I thinke bothe vvere doone Wherby appearethe that Maister Bullingers opinion is that bothe the churches chose by voices and the Apostels laied on their handes which directly ouerthrowethe the Answ For his answer is suche that onles the worde doo onely signifie there the ceremonie off imposition off handes and not the election by voices yt goethe to the grownd therfore Maister Bulling sayinge that boothe were doone in this place there coulde be no flatter testimonie againste hym then yt And where he cyteth Maister Bullinger that he is elected by common suffrages off the People vvhiche is chosen by the testimonie off the beste I knowe good reader thow merueileste not that it comethe owte off tyme for that is his ordenarie but doest thow not meruaile what misticall rethoricke hathe seperated so farr a sonder this sentence from the other whiche he before alledged Leue to meruaile there is no greate arte in it but there is some crafte For if thow gyue heed vnto him yt may appeare yt was onely to couer the trechery whiche he vsed in takinge bothe that whiche goethe before ād that whiche cometh after leuing quite owte those wordes by me alledged whiche stande in the myiddest off those two sentences marringe his whole marcket And becawse yt woulde haue to palpably appeared if he had doone yt in one and the same place he makethe thē to come as it were strangers owte off two seuerall countries that dwell harde together For the sentence it selfe what would he trowe yow conclude That the bishope muste haue the election yf it be not that I knowe not wherfore yt is browghte Yf he meane to vse yt therun to then muste off necessitie Maister Bullinger speake thus that he is elected by the commō suffrages off the people whiche is approued by the testimonie off the beste bishops Doe yow lawghe at thes thinges when the D. is in so good earneste Seinge he seeth that both the testimonie off the Scripture ād writers oulde and newe Papistes onely excepted gyue intereste off election vnto the people yet rather then yt shoulde fall from the bishopps he maketh a metamorphosis and change off the Bishoppes into the people The meaninge off Maister Bullinger if any coulde be so ignorāte as not to vnderstand is that the faithfull onely haue intereste in the election off the churche and that the Papistes haue not nor owghte not to haue to doo in it nether any other heretickes and scismatickes from the churche Whatsoeuer yt be yt can be by no means drawne to preiudice the
churches interest whiche he dothe so plainly bothe here and els where affirme And where yt is supposed that the churche hathe leue to oppose againste him that is to be elected I haue shewed howe manifeste mockerie yt is off the churche off god As for that whiche is saied off maister Bulling and Maister Caluin iointly that they haue affirmed off the significatiō off the worde as muche as he yt is a manifeste vntrwthe For maister Caluin neuer affirmed that the scripture euer vsed that worde to note the ceremonie off layinge on off handes Off M. Bullinger yt hathe bene before spoken There followeth in this seconde rancke Oecunemius whose testimonie is so flat againste the Ans signification off the word lifting vp off handes and therfore also againste the sole election off the bishoppe as a clearer coulde not be required His words be thes yt is to be noted that the disciples vvithe fastinge and praiers did make elections by voices Nowe seinge by the worde disciples Saint Luke and the Scoliast followinge him continually throwghe the storie of the Actes note the people whiche belieued it is manifeste that the Scoliaste dothe both cōclude vppon this place that the people did chuse and cōcludethe yt also of the worde lifting vp off handes Whether in attributinge the same worde vnto Paule and Barnab he meane therby the ceremonie off imposition off handes I will not as in a thinge not worthe the trauaile stande yt is enowghe for me to haue shewed how this testimonie makethe directly againste that whiche the Doctor affirmeth that is to saie that the worde lifting vpp off handes signifiethe in this place off the Actes onely the ceremonie off layinge on off handes For if it signifie bothe the election by voices and the ceremonie off layinge on off hands then our cawse standeth as sure as if it onely signified the election by voices And to this testimonie off the Scoliaste agreeth the same Ignatius that the Ans in his former boke maketh so greate accompte off who writeth thus yt is meet that yovv as those vvhiche be the church off god should chuse by voices yovvr bishopp Wherby not onely appeareth that that author wil haue the churche chuse her minister but also how this worde is vsed off him in the proper signification to note the election whiche is made by voices Chrysostome remaineth which taking the worde for the imposition off handes doothe not exclude the naturall signification Brentius translating Chrysost had folowed that sense I set downe yf the D. can confute him by the greeke example he is worthy off credite Let vs now see what the Ans hath to say against those reasons wherby I shew that S. Luke by lifting vp off handes ment properly the election by voices I may not saithe he teache the holie goste to speake God forbid I should goe abowte yt But shall not he whiche made the mouthe speake and he whiche teacheth all other to speake properly speake properly him selfe I doo not therfore teache the holy goste to speake whiche applie his words to make them agree withe the thinges they signifie but yowr opinion supposeth wante off knowledge off the tonge in the holy goste whiche woulde haue hym signify layinge downe by liftinge vp And where yow saie I trifle becawse he that laieth on his handes muste firste lifte them vpp or euer he can laie them on who trifleth in this poincte let all iudge For who dothe not vnderstande that the name is vsually giuen off the principall and nearest action wherwithe it is doon and not off those actions whiche are farr off accidentall or for the cause and sake off the principall And yt is all on as if a man should call the takinge off a knife into his hande cuttinge off breade because he that cutteth breade muste before take the knife into his hande How be it if there were the same manner off layinge on off hādes in the primitiue churche whiche is in poperie and withe vs where he that is chosen kneeleth on his knees to receiue the bishopps layinge on off handes yt is so farre from any neede to lifte vp his hand or euer he can laie yt on that onles he carie his handes verie vnmanerly like a paire off hanging sleeues he muste let them downe or euer he can can laie them on the heade off him whiche is chosen Therfore althowghe an other mighte vse this poore shifte yet yow which haue vndertaken to defende whatsoeuer the bishops generallie doo in their elections haue if I shoulde deale hardly with yow loste this aduantage Yt is nothinge with the A. that the 70. interpreters off the ould Testament nor that S Paule and Luke him selffe vtter the layinge on off handes by other words Thes are bare coniectures beinge alledged againste him but ye shall heare by and by where he hathe not halfe suche a reason the greate bell goe with certeinly and manifestly Howbeit althowghe thes seem bare coniectures to him yt muste needes haue weighte with those that haue their senses well acquainted with the holy scripture For they knowe that the writers off the newe testament frame them selues vnto the manner off speache off the oulde when they speake off the same thinges and for the gentils sake whiche had knowledge off the translation of the seuentie interpreters they kepe them so carefully to that that sometimes they vse it althowgh yt be not in euery poincte so iuste ād so answerable vnto the trewthe of the Hebrew as mighte haue beene Which thinge doone off all those especially whiche laboured in the tillage off the gentills amongeste whom S. Luke S. Paules Companion was whosoeuer considereth muste nedes confesse that this coniecture is not so bare as he maketh yt I aske yff any man can reasonably thinke that in one and the same ceremonie commen aswell vnto vs off the Newe Testament as those off the oulde Saint Luke woulde leaue bothe the maner of speache of the Hebrewes and the wordes off the 70 interpreters to take a straunge phrase from the one and diuers wordes from the other or whether he woulde leaue the phrase and wordes which the Iewes and gentils were acquainted withe to vse a phrase whiche the Iewes neuer harde of and a worde whiche was in that signification vnknowen vnto the Gentils off all whiche when there is no one which hath not force to perswade this sentence so the laste is suche that yt leuethe no place vnto any resistance For when the holy goste speaketh with the tonges off men and to their vnderstandinge if by this worde lifting vp off handes he had signified a layinge on of handes he coulde not haue beene vnderstanded seinge that worde was of no suche signification in that tonge And where he saithe I oppose my bare coniectures to improue so many learned mennes iudgements I haue shewed howe he hath ouer toulde I haue no where reasoned againste yow as if yow shoulde affirme that by that worde the laying of on hādes
for the Apostelship And if no election of the church can be saide to haue beene in the fyrste off the Actes because an Apostell can not be chosen off any but off God alone then can not the Apostels which the D. affirmeth be saide to haue chosen Matthias and Barnabas owte of the reste off the churche In the 1. 2. 3. sections off this diuision he hathe filled vp allmost a whole side wherin ther is nothinge at all which either is not gone before or commeth not after and so grosly repeted withowte ether newe coate or newe colour that I meruaile he is not ashamed For the places Act. 1. 6. 14. for that also Cor. 8. 2. I haue replied before to the other answere shall be made in their places Now then to begin̄e with the falsifyinge yow charge me with I saie that althowghe I haue not gyuen yow the same wordes yet I haue gyuē yow the same weighte and I acknowledge yow for no M. of the tonge by whose autoritie I shoulde be bound to the same wordes which yow vse I haue not taken yow as yow doo me at the worste but I haue gyuen yowr wordes a fauorabler meaninge then they deserue bycause I perceiued that yow mente to comprehende Cyprians tymes althowgh yowr wordes euen to Cyprians time woulde not so well beare it yt is disputed whether this worde vntyll or vnto dothe shutte owte or shut in the tyme wheroff it is spoken but there was neuer I think anie that dowbted vvhether that sayinge in cōmon speach mighte be stretched owte beyonde that time wherunto it is particularly applied Notwithstanding yowr wordes are yet more restreintiue For yt restreineth more to saie euen to suche a time then to saie simplie vntill suche a time for that encrease off the worde euen makethe the wall off separation higher But nowe he seethe the vntrwthe off this sayinge he castethe yt vppon Maister Musc and he must beare the weighte off yt But suche moste grosse ignorance off the estate off the primitiue churche was farre from him And Maister Musc cleareth him selfe off it well For when he saieth that the election of the minister by the voices off the churche endured vnto Cyprians tyme he meaneth not as the D. to put difference betwene the elections made by the people and the bishopp but shewethe onely a difference betwene elections made by consente off the people withowte the magistrate and betwene the elections made by the consente of the people withe the confirmation off the Magistrate And that this is his meaninge yt maie easely appeare For pursuinge the profe of that election by the churche without the magistrate alledging certein Canōs thus he cōcludeth After this sorte therfore vvere the Elders bishops and deacons in times paste chosen vvhiche fashion they still reteined vntill the tyme off Christian magistrates vvhose consente vnto the election off the bishops vvas required Therfore this absurditie beinge the Ans owne he muste be contente to beare yt Yt makethe no matter that this forme of election was not in some fewe churches off the worlde in Cyprians time nether is it meruaile althowghe in some places at that time they had departed from the institution of the Apostolicall churche If it be proued that Cyprian teachethe that it owghte to be so and that it is Gods ordinance if all the churches had declined from yt as there were verie fewe Cyprian muste needes by that sentence disalowe them Althowghe I muste also admonishe yow that if those fewe examples in Cyprians tyme coulde preiudice the trwthe yet yowr bishops election is not confirmed therby for it mighte be doone by the eldershipe of the churche by assemblie off manie bishops moste vnlikeste is yt off all other that it vvas doone at the pleasure off one bishope Let vs therfore come to examine Cyprians iudgemente and see vvhether I haue reported trwly of him Firste as a trewante lothe to goe to scoole seeketh the furthest vvaie so the A. afraide off the lighte off Ciprians vvordes makethe entrance into this sentence by halfe a score lines vvhich mighte haue bene in one Heere good reader as the A callethe for thy diligence so if thowe gyue a litle heede thow shalte see suche open and violente peruertinge as coulde not be doone withowte cracke off conscience Firste therfore let vs holde that vvhich I thincke is accorded off both partes that Cyprians purpose is to withdrawe the people from communicatinge with the ministrie off those which had fallen from the gospell vnto Idolatrie To the confirmation vvheroff vvhen he had alleadged the greuousnes off that crime he addethe especially seinge the people haue povvre to chuse vvorthie and to refuse vnvvorthie ministers As if he shoulde saie if it vvere not in yowr powre to refuse those vnworthie ministers yow mighte haue some excuse or if beinge in yowr powre to refuse the vnworthie yow had not also powre to chuse another worthy yow mighte haue likwise somewhat for excuse For yow mighte alledge peraduenture that it vvere better to kepe him stil then to be vvith owte altogether or to haue a nother as euill or worse then he but seinge yow haue bothe power to refuse the vnworthly and to a chuse a nother there muste needes befaulte That this is the meaninge off Cyprian and his argumente wherwith he calleth them backe from communicatinge vvith the ministrie off those vvhich had fallen all vvhich can set the nominatiue case and verbe together muste needes vnderstande Nowe let vs see vvhether the exposition off the Ans vvill mainteine this sayinge To accorde him and Cyprian vve muste firste expounde thes vvordes to haue povvre to chuse and to haue povvre to refuse to be to stande by while they be chosen or refused Whiche maister D. gatherethe belike becawse Cyprian saithe the election muste be had the people beinge presente In deede it appearethe the maner was then that he that was to be chosen was before them but is it a good reason that Cyprian woulde haue the people presente at the election therfore he vvoulde not haue them to chuse seinge he had sayde im̄ediatly before that they had powre to chuse Yt is well therfore that he added that yt owghte to be doone by their iudgemente so that if the churche iudged him not meet he owghte not to be minister And further addeth vvhich the D. is afraid of and whiche he shamfully deniethe in state wordes by their voices The examples out off the Actes wherwith he bringethe lighte vnto that vvhich he thawghte are touched before and amongest others by the electiō off the Deacōs whiche becawse the D. can not denie but it was by the churche he hathe lefte yt clean forthe and yet most plainly he sheweth this by exāple of an electiō which was lately made in the churche wherunto he vvritethe sayinge vvhiche vvee see to haue bene doone vvithe yovv in the ordeininge off our fellovve in office Sabinus thar the bishopricke shoulde be gyuen him by the
if Maister W. answer be good are auoided vvith a floute that they be a mandatum owte off the bookes off Leuiticus and Nombers that they carie vs to Iudaisme c. Yt is vvell the D. hath not to doo vvith the Anabaptistes For he is like enowgh to betraie that cawse vvhich hauinge so sure groundes in the scripture ▪ is here by him laied open to their mockerie For he saith that the 28. off S. Matthew is a generall grounde to proue the baptisme off Children When our Sauiour Christe speaketh there onely off those vvhich vvere off discretion as appeareth by that he biddeth them baptise those whom they haue made scolers off Christe by their doctrine And therfore for so much as the Apostels coulde not teache children nor coulde not make them disciples by teachinge before their baptisme yt is manifeste that he speaketh not there off childrens baptisme And this might he haue learned for his vse in the same booke off Zuinglius oute of which he hath taken so manie thinges to no pourpose And it is not onely Maister Zuinglius answer but other learned mennes vvhich haue had to doo vvith that secte As for the promise alledged that god is our God and the God of our seede albeit that bee the grounde wherupon the holy sacramentè off Baptisme is ministred vnto infantes yet yt is not sufficiente vvithout addinge the commaundement off God touchinge the circumcision off yonge children For iff the lorde hauinge gyuen that promise vnto Abraham had commaunded no circumcision at all or had onely commaunded yt to be gyuen to those off discretion yt had not bene lawfull for Abraham to haue circumcised his infantes yet they shoulde haue remained vnder the promes So that vvhether Yow vvill or no wee muste come to reason from circumcision vnto baptisme Neither is that yow alledge of Circumcision to haue beene a figure off baptisme sufficient to deliuer yow oute off the nettes vvherwith yow snare yowr selfe For albeit yt bee a figure off baptisme yet yt is aceremonie and a principall parte off the ceremoniall lawe and yowr answer is generall againste all reasoninge from the ceremoniall lawe vnto that which is established vnder the gospell Therfore I vpholde still that yovvr ansvveres here and in other places tende to spoile vs off diuers pillers and principall buttresses off our religion Where he saithe he condemnethe not other churches which haue appoincted other orders of electing pastors I reporte me to thè reader whether the wordes be generall and vvhether the reasons he alledgeth for that purpose be likwise Nether can the D. shewe any reason why in Geneua vvhy in vvhole Dominions in Germanie Why in Scotlande in Fraunce also in the tyme off their peace this order off election by the consente off the people shoulde bee good and pernitious in England Which notwithstandinge owghte to haue bene shewed if there be anie I expounded the worde ovvght as reason vvheroff the lawe is founded and experience vvhich is often times the interpreter off the lawe tawgte me to shewe that vvhere the consente off all can not bee had ▪ there the thinge shoulde passe by the moste parte of those which haue intereste And where yow affirme that lawiers doo saie that that sentence is to bee vnderstanded of compartners or iointe tenantes in some howse or possession and not off the interest off bodies politike I am well contente they be interpreters of the lawe which they professe and therfore iff that be shewed me I will reste in that interpretation But the reason assigned that it seldome commeth to pas that they will all consente semethe not so stronge consideringe that there is not so great violence doone vnto the wordes off the lawe which may not be founde in other places if by the worde all the moste parte be vnderstanded Especially when allthowghe all doo not agree yet all haue had free voice in that matter And where yow saie that euen that lawe admitteth diuers exceptions that is not materiall For I laie not so muche weighte of this sentence as thowghe the cause should rise and fall vvith it I mente that as much credite mighte growe vnto the cause by this as by a prouerbe which is trewe For the moste part off which kinde off reasons not onely orators but the scripture yt selfe diuers times vseth And therfore if I gaine by this lawe that the ordinarie choise off ministers owght to be by the people I hath at I loked for But yt is to be obserued that where the A founde faulte vvith me for mitigatinge the necessitie off the worde ought by this exception if it maie be he notwithstandinge alledgeth fowre exceptions wherby the necessitie which he saithe that worde importeth is quite ouerthrowne And if those condicions be trewe then be like I did well vnderstande the worde ought the vnderstandinge wheroff he can not aforde me Yt is well you be no lawier For yowe that are so liberall off a dinners talke as to tell vs off Many together and Many senerally with so many exceptions to so smale pourpose if yow had beene studied that waies woulde haue troubled vs all for then yt is like vvee shoulde haue had alwaies Cesar for Christe and Paule the lawier for Saint Paule the Apostell But marke vvhat a trymme waie he hathe founde to proue that the whole parishe chuseth when the bishopp onely chusethe that they are willinge to haue hym whom they are compelled whether they vvill or no to receiue Yea and not onely that but that euery minister is chosen by the whole realme that is to saie by those which neuer sawe him nor heard off him But hath he forgotten firste that it is our controuersie whether the parliament haue doon well in establishing off suche an order off makinge ministers and whether this egge off the bishoppes election laied in propery could by the sitting vppon off the Parliament although neuer so godly leese the poysoned nature it had before If that bee not agreed this deuise that the people chuse when the bishop be-because yt was so ordeined by all estates serueth not This libertie as hathe bene shewed is a peece off the liberties which Christ hath purchased vnto his churches by the sheddinge off his precious bloud wherin they owght to haue stood and which is no more lawfull for them to alienate or set ouer to others then to giue awaie the inheritance of the kingdome of heauen wherunto this is annexed Moreouer we speake off an electiō wherin consente is to be gyuen as ofte as the church is destitute off a minister and he off consente ones gyuen for euer We off an election which is passed by all the howsholders off euery church he off that vvhich vvas passed by a fewe burgeses in the vvhole realme We off a free election and he off an election wherin yt is by yowr leaue againste yowr will. Now the Papistes may clap their handes for againste all the argumentes that Maister
diocese will not holde owt the whether For although it might be therby gathered that there vvere seuerall Ceremonies in the elections off the dioceses yet it is plaine by his wordes that the elections vvere throvvgh ovvt made by the church vvhich is that vve desire Because yow busie yowr selfe so much to proue that this was not decreed by autoritie of the vvord of God althowgh yt be not that vvhich I tooke in hand to proue yet the wordes off that decree proue yt fully And albeyt he saied not according to the rules of the Apostles yet he saith that in effect For in saing that the church should vse that election in the name and authoritie off god what is yt els but that god hath so ordeined And in that he calleth yt the honor of the church which he giueth not him selfe but assenteth vnto he declareth yt incident to the church And what a reason is this Thēperour for bad that any man shoulde spoile the churches of their elections therfore it was in the Emperours powre to take awaie the election from the churches Which is in this diuision for feare of forgetting fowre times repeted ād vnworthy once to be cōfuted as I haue before declared And as that which the A. alledgeth off the rest of the decree maketh nothing to proue that the electiō off the church is in the Emperours powre so that which im̄ediatly foloweth vvhich he hydeth in c. doth manifestly proue that he helde yt for grounded of the vvord off God that the churches should haue the election off their mynisters For he addeth Because vve haue bene tavvght by the holie fathers that this thing that is to saie the taking awaie off the election from the church as the D. himselfe expoundeth yt is most greuous synne If therfore it be greuous synne to spoile the church of this honor and synne is defined the breach of the law off god yt followeth that the Emperour toke yt for a lawe of God that the church should chuse her minister And if I had bene bente vppon that poincte I could haue cited diuers testimonies which Illyricus vseth wherby this off the vnchangeable necessitie off the election by the church is confirmed As that Leo the firste affirmeth that no reason suffereth that he should be bishop vvhich is not chosen by the people alledged and pressed against the Papistes off Maister Caluin to the same pourpose Which place how violently and vnfaithfully yt is wrested off the D. in the end of this treatise shall be considered Also that he alledgeth off Leo the fourth and Celestine which confirmed the same ordinance vvith this testimonie it is not conuenient and yt is againste reason yt should be othervvise Likewise owt off the epistles off the Archbishop off Reines in Fraunce vvho diuers times vseth this saying he ovvght to be chosen of all vvhom all must gyue obedience vnto Last off all a whole treatise owt of the second booke of Cusanus vvhich proueth of diuers places out off the scripture Cyprian and canon Lawe that yt is no constitution off men but the lawe off God that the minister should be chosen off the church and that vvhosoeuer doth not enter into the church by that means entreth not in by the doore but is a these and a murtherer Thes I would haue browght at large if I had not contented my selfe with proofes owt of the scripture for the necessitie off yt which I here haue shortly set downe because I see the D. more afraied off the iudgemēt off the auncient church then of the scripture so that althowgh yt be a slender buckler to shild him selfe that the constitutions in that behalfe make no mention off any grownd owt off the word of god wheras he should rather haue shewed that they protested in their lawes off the indifferencie againste the necessitie off it yet euen that buckler also is by diuers Testymonies taken from him Yt is a poore falsifying off Platina vvhich is nothing but change of one worde for another without any gaine at al. For the Emperours cōmendacion serueth me as well to proue that the election of the church was alowed of and confirmed of the ciuill magistrate as if he had commaunded yt The second place off Platina proueth nothing les then that it was in the Emperours powre to change the election seinge that he nether made nor altered any forme off Election but onely off two Elections by the people mainteined that vvhich vvas lawfull Seinge also Platina supposeth no right off makinge the election in the Emperour but by the resignation off the Bishopp if that place proue any thing or thother after alledged owte off Bale and Barnes they proue that yt was in the Bishoppes hande to order yt at his pleasure Which howe vntrwe yt ys maie be considered off that vvhich hath bene before spoken againste the sole election off the Bishopp and off that vvhich is here confessed that the Bishopp of Rome began to vsurpe that which belonged not vnto hym For iff he encroched vppon the Emperours right no meruaile althowgh he brake in vppon the possession off the church Where he saith yt is to be noted that the libertie for the people to chuse was graunted by Charles the greate note also tha◠that note is worth nothing For where he would haue yt seeme that he was the firste that gaue that libertie he is confuted manifestly by the wordes off Charles a litle before alledged vvho speaketh of that election as of a thing accustomed of ould and doth not make any newe lawe therof but gyueth his assent vnto those which vvere made The vvordes yow ascribe to me that the electiō perteineth not to the Emperour I haue not I kepte the very wordes of Platina and nether added nor tooke awaie from them Where yow vvould seme to confirme owt of Platina in the life of Iohn the 13. by the worde creating that the Emperour chose Leo yt is but an abusing of the reader For Platina in the next chapter sauing one vvhere he speaketh of Leos election declareth that that creation vvas nothing els but a confirmacion of the election made by the people and clergie Therfore I saide the Emperours permitted the elections vnto the churches because by powre and violence they might haue taken them from them vvherfore yt followethe not that he mighte withowt breache off Gods lawe take them from the churche When yt is saide in the stories that the Emperous permitted vnto the churches the exercise off their religion maie yt therby be concluded that it was at their pleasure to haue without offence of God restrained them of that libertie verely I am ashamed to confute vvhich the D. is not ashamed to obiecte Yet the testimonies alledged make no mention of this word permission wherby this aduantage yf yt vvere anie should betaken Yow might easelie haue forgiuen me this fault where the iniurie which I doo is a gainst my selfe For where I might
is a popishe shifte as I haue shewed sufficiently before confuted yt hath no grounde in the vvorde testimony wherout he woulde pull yt For by a fygure off metonymy he noteth the peoples voice because by giuinge it they gaue also testimony what they the wght off him Where it is to be noted that the D. giueth no more to the churche off God then S. Paul giueth to straungers froÌ„ yt of whom he willeth that the bishop shall haue a good report There followeth the open violence doone vnto August wordes Where first let the reader obserue againe that this wresting of the example of Eradius against the election of the church was taken from Pighius as appeareth manifestly But for answer vnto Pigbius and the D. it muste be vnderstanded how for that election of Eradius to be bishop after August decease there were assembled two bishopes besides August 6. Elders beside Eradius with the reste of the clergie and people For what purpose all thes if it were in Augustines powre to choose onelie After yt appeareth that Augustine did call the people to haue there consente because he had experience off trouble and discontentement of the people off Millen for that Seuerus the bishop there did appoincte his successor before his death withowte speakinge any thinge theroff vnto them vvhich could not be auoided off Augustine if he mente to chuse any againste the will off the people For yt had bene better for him to haue appoincted one as Seuer us did vvithowte communicatinge the matter vnto them then in communicatinge yt to take one againste their willes Againe where the D. vppon those wordes I vvill haue Eradius my successor woulde haue that Augustine onely had the election off him he is coÌ„futed by and by after with his owne wordes I saie that I vvill haue him because I knovve that yovv vvill haue him And after he vvilleth that the publike notories shoulde as vvell note their voices as his vvill in this matter that saith he your consentes fall not to the grounde or become voide Wherunto also pertaine the subscriptions of them which folowed Which althowgh the D. saith are referred onely vnto the peticion off Augustine to be discharged off the hearinge off ciuill matters yet the wordes sounde otherwise For when he required their subscription to those Actes yt is cleare that he muste be vnderstanded to haue spoken off both those matters otherwise he woulde haue required subscription to that Acte and not vnto the Actes And where in the ende for an other reason he addeth Augustine was appointed bishope when Valerius bishope off Hippo was a liue I see not howe it maketh for him one word For if he think that Valerius off his Authoritie did it he is vtterly deceiued seing Possidonius writeth that Valerius spake vnto the people to prouide and to ordeine an elder off the cytie and sheweth how he was ordeined by the consente off all the people Which thinge yff it were not more lighter then the none daies off this Epistle off August yet yt mighte appeare by other as where he declareth that Pinianns was ordeined off the people elder off the church againste his will. moe might be alleadged but thes shall suffyse Sauinge that I muste put Maister D. in remembrance howe he merueilously forgetteth him selfe For grauntinge me before that the councell off Carthage wherat Augustine was presente decreed that the election shoulde be made by the commen consente off the people clerkes and bishopes in the same prouince he must heere needes confesse that ether Augustine did there ioine together in election with the church and the clergie as they terme them or that he brake the order off the Councell which could not be vvithowt his fault although the election off the church had bene as the D. esteemeth yt but a thing indifferent And the truth is yt appeareth that August had in that election an expresse regard vnto the decree off the councell which caused him beside the eldership off the church and people to send for two other bishops to be assistants Wherupon the reader may see how there is no light off wordes so cleare which Phighius and the Ans misled will not giue thâ—nser to darcken Besides that Ambrose calleth yt a diuine election which is made by the church which he could not onles yt were by the institution off God the whole discourse off the Epistle teacheth that the election off the people is there accounted off as necessary For when the church off Vercella did linger the time in not chusing a bishop vvhen it vvas also infected vvith Heretickes vvhy did not Amb. at least by vvay off Lapse take the election vnto him self but vvriteth vnto them reprehending them that they did not aske for a bishop as other churches were vvont to doo Gregor Nazienz speaking there off diuers elections vvherin still the people bore one part and that withowt controlement speaketh more for that election in that one place then the D. hath hitherto or in the residue of his treatise is able to shew And where he might seeme to haue somewhat nipped at it in shewing how at certeine elections some off the people were contentious he healeth that euen in the next sentence to this saying that at that time it was to be feared lest he ovvght to iudge the popular regiment better ordered then their ovvne and after maketh mention off the corruption off those which were fellow elders vvith his father but obserue I pray yow againe the D. faith fulnes which expouÌ„deth the worde churches the clergy Where learned he thus to expound Let it be that as in the scripture sometime so in the auncient fathers the eldership off a church is called by the name off church where can he euer shew that the eldership or as he termeth it the clergy of one onely church vvherof Greg. speaketh is called by the name off churches In steed therfore that he should haue translated both the richer and they off great authority in the church vvere cleane from that euill he hath translated the churches that is to say the clergy c taking the nominatiue plurall for the genitiue syngular Which although in the latin toung if one take not heed vnto the sense may deceiue yet vvhen the D. had the Greeke which hath off the church before him as it seemeth by cyting the greeke in the same place by and by after ether he vnderstood it not or willingly peruerted the meaning So I leaue to the reader whether I haue reasoned to the pourpose or no and whether yow besides wordes haue any thing at all As in certeine other places so in this in steed off that I should haue taken the quotacion which came after I taking the quotacion in my paper booke which went before was deceiued and for the 6. and 7. of Socrates set downe the 6. and 7. of Eusebius This verely is the error which the D. maketh so
worse and that it was not able to put this order off the church to flight vntill yt approching vnto her full age had gotten greater strenght off wickednes What Ierome hath of this matter I haue shewed In the next Diuision beside this question whether yt be conuenient for a minister to take wages which can liue off his owne which I will not enter into there is nothing but bare repetition and open petition of that in controuersie The next chap. of Ceremonies in ordeining is answered before That functions off Apostels Euangelistes and Prophetes are not ordinarie Chap 3. pag 229. TO th end it may be better vnderstanded that the D. hath here in maintenance of his Anabaptisticall dreame so confusedly turned vppon heapes I will first mainteine the argumentes which I haue set downe after answer vnto his reasons taken out of the scripture thirdly shewe howe impudently he hath abused the autoritie both of elder and later writers to couer this phrenesie Which shal be doon so much the shorter as he is vnworthye any answer at all First to nip at the distinction off ordinary and extraordinary functions receiued off all which haue but a sparkle off iudgemente he saith that the gift off foretelling thinges to come was for the tyme wherin yt was ordinary Which beside that yt is senseles yt being ordinary in this part which is doon by a setled order and rule appointed off God vnto his church yt ys also from the pourpose consideringe that the question is not off an ordinary function in the beginning off the Gospell but off the gospell symply which reacheth to the whole estate off the church vnder the Gospell Therfore forasmuch as he can not deny but such Prophetes if any were should nowe be extraordinary the distinction standeth After to that I set downe off the vvord Apostel extended in the proper signification to all Ministers that are sent which the knowledge of the Greek word might haue led him to he opposeth Caluin which saith in the proper signification it onely comprehendeth the nombre off 12. Wherin he declareth himselfe but a trifler For onles he be at defiance vvith his grammer he shal be constreined will he nill be to confesse it to be true which I haue set downe That which Maister Caluin saith is not contrary considering that vvhere I spake off the generall vse off the worde he spake of the vse off it in the newe Testament where it is most vsually taken in that sense As for that he saith it is the proper signification he meaneth not the naturall as I ment and expressed but the particular in which sense proper is also taken which appeareth in that he calleth the other generall Where I assigned a proper note off an Apostell to be called immediatly off God he setteth him selfe to confute it when a litle before he had statly confessed that yt is a thing proper vnto the Apostels to be called off God immediatly His first exception is of Matthias which he saith was not so chosen which is vtterly vntrue where he saith also that I confesse the same that is an open vntruth For I shewed that the election out off those two was permitted vnto lot that thereby the Lord might from heauen declare whom he would haue to be an Apostell So that the church chose no Apostle but onely chose twoo off the which one was taken by the Lord to be an Apostle His other exception is off Barnabas which being an Apostle as he saith appeareth by the 11. off the Actes not to haue bene called immediatly where there is not a word which confirmeth that and therfore he durst not note the place whereoff he gathered yt Where he saith it can not be proued by the scripture that he was so called he beggeth the thing in controuersie not able to answer the reasons alledged For where he saith that S. Paul doth not say that he sawe Christ to proue that he was an Apostel but to proue that he was not inferiour to other Apostels he is manifestly confuted both by the wordes going before and folowing after For hauing propounded this for his question am I not an Apostell ād not as he saith am I inferior to any Apostel he addeth for a reasō haue I not seen Christe And in the next wordes that followe yf I be not an Apostell vnto others yet I am to yovv he declareth that the estate off the question is there whether he were an Apostel or no. To that I alledged off the protestantes prouing that the Pope can not be Peters successour because there is no succession into the office off an Apostell he aswereth not To that I alledged off Epaphroditus called an Apostel not in respect of the ministrie of the vvord but as sent vvith relief vnto Saint Paul he patcheth out an answer almost of as many coulors as he alledgeth autorities out off the Centuries that he was an Apostel in that sense that Paul and the rest off the Apostels were Which beside that yt is false they onely affirming that he was an Apostel is cleane contrary to that he alledgeth out off Caluin that it is taken there generally for any sent to preach and therefore it can not be taken in that signification off Apostels in which the 12 and Paul. yt is contrary also to that owt off Ambrose which saying that he was therefore called an Apostel because he was sent off Paul confirmeth in part that which I haue set downe that he was called an Apostle not in respect off any dignitie off ministery aboue others Ministers off the word but onely in that he was sent Finally contrary to that alledged owt of Theodoret which so calleth hym an Apostle that forthwith also he maketh him to be a Bishop When as if he be a Bishop he can not be such an Apostell as the 12. considering that they be twoo seuerall members off the ministers off the Gospell differing by the D. owne cōfession at the least in the place of exercise off their misterie the bishop hauing an especiall bonde to his Bishopricke and the Apostel preaching Where he thincketh need Where he saithe also that it confirmeth his side that he is called the Apostell off the Philippians and other the Apostels off the churches for that thereby it may appeare that one may be Apostel off a kingdome or off a prouince he dalieth with his reader For in that place I alledged out off the 2. Corinthes 8. the Apostels off the churches are not so called in respect off any ministery off the word but off the almes which they were sent with And beside that the church off the Philip. was nether prouince nor kingedome but a particular church Epaphroditus is not called their Apostel in that he was sent off Saint Paul vnto them but in that the Philip. sent him to Saint Paul as the wordes which followe immediatly after obserued off Maister Beza doo declare So that yf that place
off this then falleth he from his conning distinction off hauing it ambitiously and by election For considering that Bernarde saith he is forbidden it and speaketh not there against the abuse but against the vse off dominion in a bishop it followeth that domynion nether falleth into a bishop in that he is a bishop nor can be receiued off him being offred off the cyuill Magistrate The reader therfore may see that the exposition yow follow off this place doth quite ouerthrowe the bishops answer ād openeth the Papistes mouth which he had stopped Yf this cawse should be tried by autoritie yow could gaine nothing Not onely Caluin Iewell with the auncient fathers which he alledgeth but Bulling Zuing. Gualter with a a nomber of others doo expound it as I haue doon and proue by those places off the Euangelistes in plaine wordes that there is no superioritie off one minister ouer an other and that with fuller wordes then Caluin vseth And euen the very same word Maioritie which yow say in the margent off the text is proued by these places Bullinger affirmeth to be ouertrowen by the same As for yow albeit yow pretend Musculus c. yet in very deed these answers which yow make are taken properly owt of Pigghius which hath all those corners reasons and shiftes almost word for word as yow haue cowched them here in this treatise I report me whether I haue spoken to the meaning or no yow haue mustered them by fyrst second third I will also answer them seuerally And to the first I answer that although our Saui. Christ saied not no man owght to be great amongest yow yet he saied as muche for when he saith the greatest shal be as the least he that is first as seruant to all he fetching downe the greatest to the least and making the cheiftie amongest them a seruice vnto them all taketh away all dominion off one ouer an other This reason I hauing answered before was vnneedfull to be here repeated so remaineth for him to proue that if our Sauiour Christ had ment to take away all domynion off the Apostles one ouer an other then he would haue saied no man owght to be great amongest yow and that there was no other way to giue owt this sense but this The second concludeth that our Sauiour had no meaning to take away superiours amongest Christians nothing to this question For no man denieth but there owght to be superiours As for that he interlaceth off Peter◠cheifty it is answered afterward The similitudes he vseth can not win his superioritie off one minister ouer an other For as for heauenly bodies althowgh one off them be more excellent then an other yet they exercise no dominion one ouer an other Therfore if it proue any thing it proueth that excellency off giftes amongest ecclesiasticall persons doth not lift them vp in autoritie and commaundement one ouer an other but onely maketh a differēce in order ād comelines Which we haue shewed in the beginning to be in ecclesiasticall mynistery where we willingly receiue order opposed to confusion refusing domynion opposed vnto subiection For the heauenly spirites what will yow alledge to proue that they haue domynion one ouer an other The place of the Ephesians thrones domynions principalities povvres if yow doo it is boldier then Augustine durst doo But if they be superiour one to an other that superioritie is answered in the church by superioritie off mynisters ouer the people If they be seuered in orders one from an other that is not denied to be in officers off the church If they exercise domynion one ouer an other that is expressed in commen wealthes So that if the Answ were able to proue all these which will be hard for him withowt Denyses dreames yet he may see they conclude not a domynion off one minister ouer an other The third reason likewise concludeth not against this cawse and to thes two reasons I answered at large Which if the Ans would haue taken away he owght to haue shewed that there can be no superioritie of one ouer an other in the church onles one minister be superior to another but that he passeth slily by and picketh a quarell vnto the examples To his exception against the first example that there is inequalitie amongest seruantes I answer there is none but by the maisters expresse appointement And therfore if he will haue aduantage theroff he muste proue that it is the Lordes ordinance that one minister shoulde rule ouer an other beside that it is enough to mainteine mine answer off equalitie off seruantes in a familie that it is so for the most part ād whē my meaning was of seruātes left in one and the same order yt is owt off time to alledge this exāple Secōdly the inequalitie there made is not of one steward ouer an other but ouer the familie which he ministreth vnto and therfore this similitude maketh to shew that one minister is not ruler ouer an other but euery minister ruler off his flock Thirdly that similitude off gouernement off the steward Math. 24. being propounded as a picture to set forth the rule off ministers ouer their flockes declareth not onely how there owght no gouernement to be erected in the church but by commaundment off God but also how far it owght to be from that absolute domynion or lordly pomp which the Answ would bring in which Musc a great man with the D. declareth when he saieth He speaketh after the commen faschion for this vvas the office of the principall seruant to gyue euery man his diet he vvas not appointed to be lord off others As for his exception against my other example of equalitie off brethren the inequalitie which the scripture maketh betwene the elder brother and the rest is nothing les then any rule or autoritie to commaund them but onely a reuerence which the younger owght to beare to the elder which we willingly graunt amongest the ministery that the younger men gyue place to the gray heares off the elder Thother preeminence off hauing two partes off the goodes wheroff the younger brethren had but one is no matter off inequalitie in autoritie wherof onely we speake wherin also we will not deny but one minister according to his charge off children may haue greater portion then other And both these exceptions are not taken against my allegation so muche as against the godly writers off our tyme Which to proue the equalitie of autoritie off the bishop off Rome with other bishops haue alledged that they called one an other brethren that they vvere fellovv seruantes Dominion here forbidden saith the Ans is not of one minister ouer an other but ouer the people wherin he is greatly deceiued For our Sau. Christ speaking to his 12. disciples according to S. Math. saith vvhosoeuer shall be great amongest yovv shall be yovvr minister and vvhosoeuer amongest yovv shall be fyrst shall be yovvr
ministers preach and suppresse heresies so well thorowgh all the church as an archbishop in a Prouince I haue shewed that albeit one be graunted more impossible then the other yet this also is impossible which is sufficient to proue that in hand And that is here confessed when he is constreyned to lay one part off his dutie vpon his Suffraganes shoulders an other vpon his archdeacons c. All which if he be able to beare him self why doth he driue them vnto others Let the church at least be discharged off thes bourdens If not why hath he taken it vpon him Yf the Pope deserue condemnacion for taking more vpon him then he is able to doo the Archbishop and bishops which beare him companie in this point caÌ„ not be separated from it So this reason browght against the Pope standeth fast against them Moreouer as the Pope can not dispatch his matters in the whole churche so well as an Archbis in a prouince so can nether an Archbis in his Prouince so well as a bishop in his dioces nor he in his dioces so wel as in a particular coÌ„gregacioÌ„ doo the duties of a bishop So that this answer no more shutteth owt the Pope then the archbishop or lordly bishop But he saith the archbishop may haue conference with his archdeacons and Chauncelours which the Pope can not He seemeth to haue forgotten the conference by letters and intelligence which the Pope hath had from tyme to time so particular and precise off churches furtheste off him as if he had bene in the bosome off them which pointe Maister Tindall hathe well set forthe And would to God there were the tenth part off the fruicte off the archbishops conference vnto the good off our churche which hathe bene off the Popes to the ouerthrow therof And if conference by mouthe be necessary Rome is not so far but as it hathe bene so it maie be had For besydes that stories aforde vs diuers examples off churches which haue sowght the appeasing off their controuersies from places further remoued then Canterbury is from Rome the marchandrise off vnitie owght to be so precious that we shoulde not doubte to saile for yt vnto the Indes and Garamantes so that if there be suche a mysterie in the nomber of one to kepe vnitie the distance of place owght not to hinder this monarchie off the whole churche yf for no other cause yet for this that when the archbishops of whom hangeth forsoothe the churches peaâ—â— are fallen owt there maie be some to accord them That as the mynisters haue lorde bishops and they tharchbishops so the archbishops might haue a Pope in reuerence off whose autoritie they might easelyer be conioined And in deede by so much more yt is necessary in this respect there should be a Pope ouer the archbishop then ether archbis ouer bishops or bishops ouer ministers as the reÌ„te and diuisioÌ„ in theÌ„ being cheif is more hurtfull then when it falleth amongeste those in lower places For when schismes and heresies light amongeste them they spred so muche further as they with the arme and power off their autoritie are hable to flinge them further then the other The differences betwene the Pope and the archbishop serue but for stuffing for I excepted in my replie the corruptions off doctrine and yow owght to haue vnderstanded that superiority of one bishop ouer all in the catholike churche chosen by consente doothe not necessarily drawe thes accidentes of contempte of Princes of making their decrees equall with the lawes of god c. Yow should therfore haue made yowr coÌ„parison betwene an vniuersall Bishop chosen and not breaking in violently meinteining the truthe and not fighting againste yt c. Vnto that I alledged that thinges passing by voice in the churche of Alexandria the distinction off bishop from the reste off the elders in the church there might come in vvithovvte Saint Marckes consente he saithe nothing And in deede if he had obteined that which he woulde so faine that this alteration was made in S. Marckes time yet he shall neuer obteine this that S. Marke had his hande in that chaunge onles he will saie the Apostells and Apostolicall men were autors off all thinges doone in their time in euery singular congregacion Vnto that I saide the vvordes from Saint Marcke maie be taken rather exclusiuely to shut ovvte S. Marke he answereth that none off iudgement will graunte that where notwithstanding he that hath anie iudgement doth easely vnderstande that the wordes haue manie times that significacioÌ„ and that they are so here I am coÌ„tent it be tried by the other reasons propounded I alledged that S. Marck can not be autor off that distinction because he making those thinges diuers vvhich the holy Gost made one should make the storie he vvrote suspected He answereth yt ys certeine thes were no otherwise distinguished then the holy gost appointed them which I haue shewed how shameles yt ys Then that my collection is vngodly to imagine so off the gospell written by the Euangeliste As yff I did not in plaine wordes deteste all suspicion of the vntrwthe off that Gospell and therfore caste awaie his false surmise which might gyue occasion theroff He saith therby appeareth at the least that yt was auncient I denie not but yt is manifeste also that ther were other corruptions in some places of the churche as aunciente The Answ as his coustome is taketh his pleasure off me because vpon the wordes off Ierome this coustome vvas at Alexandria I gather that yt was not in other places As if yt were not manifeste that Ierome noteth where yt began and if it had beginning at Alexandria yt was there when yt was not in other churches If it had had further passage at that time Ierome should haue doone yt iniurie in coÌ„cealing yt For it would haue made much for the credite off that distinction Which I alledging in the next diuis the Ans saith nothing vnto Nether is there anie so rude an idiote which knowethe not that a notable or vnwonted thinge saide off one man place or time is spoken emphatically and excludeth all other But as the D. will not vnderstande a generall proposition vnles yt haue the signe all or euerie before yt so he will not vnderstande that any thinge is appropriat vnto another vnles yt haue thes wordes onely alone c. And it is cleare how intollerable the D. is in his insultations seing Ierome in saying that this coustome gat grounde by litle and lytle declareth the trwth of my collection And where he answereth to that I obiected off the confounding oftentimes off prieste and bishop that the bishop is a prieste but not contrariwise he first answereth not to the argumeÌ„t For this is not to be confounded when off two thinges one is verified of the other but thother can not returne and be verified of his fellow Secondly his answer is ouerthrowne by his exposition of the place of
this testimonie of Epiphanius And further saith of Wickleue that therfore he tooke away the difference betwene bishop and elder because he could not obteine the bishoprick of Worcester and in an other booke inueigheth sharplie against them for that they would haue neither Pope nor primate nor Archbishop nor Bishop And that yt may yet appeare euen to the simple reader that they had the same cause against Pigghius and the Papistes which we against the D. I offer to his consideration besides the two flat testimonies of M Barnes aÌ„d Hooper before cyted M. Wickleues tenthe article in thes wordes Ther be 12 disciples of Antichrist Popes Cardinalles Patriarckes Archbishopes Bishops Archedeacons Officials Deanes Monkes Chanons Fryers and Pardoners If the D. say that Wickleue spake that not off the offices but off their abuse in popery that shift will not serue coÌ„sidering that he leaueth owt priestes and Deacons Wherof the priest especially doing more mischeife then diuerse which are reckened yet because he occupied the place off the pastor in euery congregacion which was the ordinance off God and was onely a deprauacion and deformitie off the trew ministerie he spareth him the other because they were deuised partlie herbingers to prepare his way partly purucâ—ers to interteine his estate he marked with the black cole off Antichristianitie Yf yt be further said that Wickleue should by this meanes condemne the estate off a bishop vvhich S. Paule alloweth off yt is manifest that he bet against the lord bishop which ruleth ouer other ministers in adiocese coÌ„sidering that he leaueth the priest the deformitie of the teaching minister which minister is all one as hath bene shewed with S. Paules Bishop Beside this reason they may as well saye he spake not against the office off Pope Chanons Monkes Friars Pardoners but onely against the abuse which is absurde This to the learned may better appeare by Pigghius discourse which confesseth that the Waldenses and Wickleue left the ordeâ— off priesthode as they call yt and that the whole question betwene them was not whether lord bishops and Archbishops did their dutie but whether they were lawfull estates Wherby appearethe that whosoeuer was the D. marchant these wares come from one off the filthiest puddels off popery and withall that as sone almost as there was any set and apparant estate of the churche which proclaimed open warre against Antichrist the letters off defiaunce were as well sent against the Archbishop and longehanded bishop as against the Pope Luther also after them writethe thus Bishops vvhersoeuer they be in all the vvorlde are equall to our bishops or parishe ministers and preachers of none caÌ„ yt be said one is lord an other a seruant they are off the same iudgement and vvhatsoeuer belongethe to the churche equally belongeth to all except that vvhich Paule teacheth some preacher or Christian may be off a sounder faith then other haue greater giftes then another interprete the scripture better then an other rule better then an other preache better and haue the discretion off spirites more then an other c. hovvbeit suche giftes cause no inequalitie or lordship in the church Here I will also set downe the iudgement off the reformed churches in Heluetia Zurich Berne Geneua Polonia Hungery Scotland c. who hauing reckened the ministries specified in scriptures add in the times follovving ther vvere many other titles off ministers brovvght into the churche For some vvere ordeined Patriarckes some Archbishops other Suffraganes also metropolitanes Archelders c. but for all those vve passe not ether vvhat they vvere in times past or are novv the Apostels doctrine of the ministers is sufficient for vs. Yf all these churches make no accounte off these offices not onely as they are now but when they were at the best if they esteme them withowt the doctrine of the Apostles I leaue to the readers iudgement what estimacion they had off them and how the D. woulde abuse vs that drawethe the sentences of the cheif in this coÌ„fession to proue their conuenieÌ„ce Neither do I dowbt but that our Archebishops and Bishops refusing to ioyne with the rest off the churches in this confession did it because they could not digest this morsell especiall Now to come to the D. that saith Epiphanius calleth vs heretickes which pinchethe vs. master Wickleue and the pore Waldenses bare yt at Pigghius hand we must do yt at the D. in dede so muche more pinching as yt commethe from him from whom yt least owght But what remedy the Lord will looke to it in time Howbeit because this arrow is as yt is said of Epiphanius a man subiecte to error shot owt off Pigghius bow one giuen vpp to error hauing no heade off the worde of God to make yt enter yt may peraduenture raise the skin but wounde yt can not make But Augustine reckenethe yt so but Augustine reporteth what he found written for towching his owne iudgement he is flat against Epiphanius which maketh a bishop aÌ„d an elder differ by the Apostels institution wheras Augustin as I haue shewed teacheth euen as Ierome that this difference was not by the word of God but by custome now I would know of the D. how Augustin can houlde that for an heresie which to leaue the rest can not be conuinced by the word off God but onely by a custome off the churche And here first he must either let goe his hould of Ierome or this of Epiphanius For if yt be trw that Epiphanius houldeth that a bishop and an elder differ by the Apostels institution then it is false which Ierome and others hould that they were all one at the first and that the difference came by custome Contrariwise if Ierome in that point say true as in dede he dothe then Epiphanius authoritie falleth Secondly yf the D. will preiudice this cause for that Epiphanius a Catholike thowght them to differ by the word off God where Aerius an heretike thowght them all one or els in that Augustin reckeneth that amongest his heresies by the same reason he must preiudice this trwthe that we owght not to praie or make any oblation for the dead For both Epiphan estemed him an heretike for his iudgement in that behalfe and Augustin reporteth this as one off his heresies which is catholike doctrine So that Pigghius might vse this autoritie better which condemnethe as well the one as the other then the D. which houldethe as I thincke for Catholike that which Aerius the hereticke affirmed and for hereticall which Epiphanius the Catholike condemned The flower off Epiphanius reasons browght before is answered now the D. distressed bringeth forth tag aÌ„d rag for towching Epiphanius saying the bishop by imposition off handes begetteth fathers 1. teachers to the churche vvhere the priestes begate onely sonnes yt is but asking off that in question when Aerius holding them both one by Gods institution the imposition off handes belonging vnto the bishop muste
nedes be affirmed to apperteine vnto the elder neither doth Epiphanius answer the reason owt off S Paule that Timothe was ordeined by imposition off handes off the companie off elders Likewise that browght off a bishop aboue an elder because S. Paule vvilleth Timothe not to rebuke an elder to let goo other faultes as many as are wordes in the sentence yt is absurde that he referreth that vnto an elder by office which is spoken of an elder by yeares and referreth that to the publicke minister which is vnderstanded onely off a priuate membre off the churche as appeareth manifestly by the opposition off a yong man and after off the elder woman So I leaue to be estemed what good cause the D. hath to couer his face in that wheroff he so greatly vaunteth The next diuision is answered In the next I leaue it to the reader whether the D. order hath the heeles vpward which after endeuoure to shew the necessitie the causes yea the examples off a thinge setteth him selfe to proue that it was Althowgh if this be his trim order he hath kept it euill for Chrysostome browght for confirmacion off the first comethe after Ierome which is browght to beare vp his seconde That Ignatius bishop was but off one particular congregation onely I haue shewed and therfore the wordes ouer all pressed off the D. as they are off Pigghius from whence this was taken are vnderstanded of those within his particular churche Besides the kinde of speach may be easelier drawen vnto the whole worlde then off a diocese or prouince for the reason assigned in my former booke That the bishop owght to be aboue the elders which onelie gouerned and deacons is confessed yf he were aboue the teaching elders that was by custome whether good or bad let it be iudged off that said Howbeit that that be graunted yt maketh nothing to proue a bishop ouer a diocese muche lesse an Archbishop When the bishop in euerie church or to speake as the D. in euerie diocese was the Cheife aboue whom there coulde not by this Ignatius be any higher bishop in earthe I leaue yt to the readers iudgement how absurde the D. is who saith that Ignatius dothe not ouerthrow his Archishop for therby he affirmeth that albeit the bishop off the Diocese were the highest bishop that coulde be vpon earthe yet there might be an other higher then he Also how fonde he is in his reason that for as muche as an archbishop is a bishop therfore Ignatius allowing one allowethe the other When yt is manifest by his owne confession that Ignatius speaketh off one onely sort off bishops either of one particular church as the trwthe is or off one diocese as he imagineth So that his argument is Ignatius allowethe one sort off bishops therfore the Archbishop all one as if a man should say he hath a kinde off fishe in his moate therfore a whale fishe The D. detected in that Iustins president was neither bishop off diocese nor Archbishop off Prouince but of one congregation for excuse saith he browght the place to proue there might be superioritie ouer the ministers Where first his trim order that all my logicke and Rhetoricke is not able to moue is too pitifull for how childishe is yt after so long trauaile to proue a bishop ouer the ministers off a diocese and tharchbishop of a Prouince in the ende to endeuour to proue that ther may be superioritie as if any man would denie this that graunted the other and yt is to set the fondacion vpon the louer yet I would know off him what meanethe the word this wherby appeareth not onelie that he browght yt to proue superioritie but the superioritie either off a bishop ouer a whole diocese or an Archbishop ouer a Prouince considering that this is the superiority which he speake of before and im̄ediatelie after Secondly where I bothe by the vse of the scriptures and auncient writers shewed the word Brethren not taken for the gouernours but the people obserue how vainly he answerth that Iustine meant the ministers and deacons by brethren because he calleth the people after by the name off people As if the rest off the church were not called both in scripture ād other writers by diuerse names Thirdly how if it be graunted that Iustins presidēt had superioritie ouer the minister yet how fondly yt is concluded that yt is lawfull because yt was Then how his weapons fetched from Maister Beza haue alwaies their edge towarde him and his cause For he alledgeth him to proue that Iustins president did gouerne the reste and had the name off bishop which in the same place flatly condemneth that pollicie as is declared Lastly how by this answer he maketh euerie pastor off a congregacion to handle the gouernemen which before he tooke from him when he shutteth him vp in the administracion of the word and samentes only Iustines writinges compared as I compared them with the holie scripture are as I said a ditche I added the reason that ther was in them not a litle mudd off errors which the D. could not answer otherwise I acknowledge him both godlie and learned Maister Beza sought not the word president in Iustine but sheweth how Timothe did the office at Ephesus which Iustines president did which was meete considering he had a higher ministerie then any there So that althowgh Timothe aboue the degree off a bishop kept that presidentship continually during his abode yet there was no reason that one Pastor off the same degree with other should take that vpon him Yf he were the true Ignatius he should in dede be before Iustin but to let passe other exceptions withe M. Caluins sharpe censure off him yt is absurde to ascribe to Ignatius S Iohns scholer that vaine boaste off being able to expound the orders off Angells their varieties the distinctions and differēces betwene vertues powers Thrones c. That priest is no fit name for a minister off the gospell is towched after that the names proper to our S. Christ can be cōmunicated with man is absurd and before confuted where also the name off Prince a peace off Prince off Priestes is shewed vnfit fer the ministery That there may be one Archbishop ouer bishops as there is one bishop ouer pastors hathe no parte trw as hathe bene shewed onely let yt be noted that the reason here for the Archbishop is Hardinges for the Pope This argument browght before and after to proue our Archbishops iurisdiction that one had care of the whole Prouince here is pursued wherunto I answer here that care dothe not necessarily draw iurisdiction or rule ouer that cared for seing that there is no minister I might haue said also no magistrate yea no priuate membre which owght not to haue and shew forthe a care off all the churches which are in Christendome euery one according to the meanes which
him that faulteth that waies to be no meÌ„bre off the churche S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse neiter dothe he cut them of from the church but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed as yow would beare vs in hande and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches had not giuen the occasion of suche departure the departure had bene more vntollerable And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte so muche yow encrease off the sinÌ„e of the bishops which withowt iust cause gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the preaching off those brethren for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow And vvhere yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes or the Sacramentes administred in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes or like vnto them bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither And therfore if yow did purposely put that Or rather then and then whilest yow vvrote your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren And iff yow did not put yt purposely but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the vvord off god is preached and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely I would gladlie know off yow vvhat difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the churche off God seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe Because it is your oulde wont and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie withowt any proufe owt off the word off god yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche yf yow bind so harde and locke so fast yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god that the conscience which onely looketh vnto the word off god seinge it selffe in that daunger might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered The glosse and the Text varie here For the one in saying that it standeth me good name vpon to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche The other by saying that theÌ„re are not so manye and that they are not iustified do the indirectlie confesse it And if yt were not confessed the thinge is so notorious that albeit I name them not yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe in that which hathe so manie witnesses And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England so it standeth not by any diligence good foresight or discipline off yours that the churche swarmeth not with them seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche vvhere vvith the leuaine off their false doctrine they may sowre not one towne as it vvere thre peckes but vvhole shires as it vvere a vvhole heape or fatte or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul vvherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement he answereth that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement and broching new opinions which is no answer to the question For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions yet vve owght to correcte our oulde errors as often as we are made vnderstande them So that vnles he will saye that those which beleue the gospell are vvithowte the daunger off error in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them boothe which are absurde it muste needes folowe that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader vvhiche vppon that vve haue chaunged Iudgement vvoulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell and established in a certeine order off gouernement maye with owte feare off suspition off that liÌ„ghtenes which he dooth surmise displace the former order and place an other Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is betwene thes sayinges the churche can not longe continevve vvithovvt common vvelthes and the churche maye be established vvithovvt a Christian magistrate Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth But he shoulde vnderstande as longe as their be magistrates althowghe they be not onely vnchristian but Tyrannicall and persequuting yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance so ouercometh all their malice that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche The answer which his glosse asketh for towching churlishe ansvvering althowghe yt deserued none is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante but I referred him in the answer to the seuenth article Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off â—he churche lately set forthe where this is answered
no merueill if he were ignorant off the difference between a booke and an epistle and therfore not vnlike but Polidore helped him in his title for the next diuis I am content that the issue declare from whence the archbishop came This is deintie and tender geere and such as I can not deale with diuers times before his answer hath bene that tharchbishops ministerie differeth from the Bishops towching order here he saith they differ not in order before to proue that the church might appoint an archbishop he saied that it might appoint an office beside the offices off the scriptures now he is gone from that saying the Archbishops ministerie is no other ministrie but an other degree Also in an other place he to mainteine tharchbishop saith the church may ad ministeries here because he is ashamed off that he denieth that yt is a new ministerie Then forasmuch as his answer standeth in this difference off ecclesiasticall office and degree and againe betwene ecclesiasticall degree and order becawse I thinck they were neuer heard off before they need some autoritie off the scripture at least some Ecclesiasticall writers to confirme them And beside that in ecclesiasticall writers the mynisteries are separated one from an other by degree the Ans him self in an other place will haue the word degree when it is saied they get vnto them selues a good degree to signifie a diuers ministrie from the Deaconship Likewise in an other place to proue that a Bishop is aboue a priest he vppon certein autorities concludeth that in those times there were three degrees off ministers bishop priest and deacon whereuppon yt must follow that if the Archbishop differ from the bishop in degree ecclesiasticall he must differ in ministerie euen as the degree off deacon being different from the Elder maketh a seuerall mynisterie from yt yea theruppon followeth that there being then but three degrees in the church wheroff the archbishop was none by his owne saying there was then no archbishop seing he maketh him a seuerall degree from them which is a manifest ouerthrow off that he defendeth In an other place to proue Timothe archbishop he alledgeth that thoffice off tharchhishops and bishops be one becawse whatsoeuer is necessarie for a bishop is necessarie for an archbishop which is ridiculous For then a bishop is all one with an Elder considering that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an Elder is necessarie for a bishop and the Euangelistes office the same that an Apostles considering that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an Euang. is necessarie for an Apostle Where to proue the offices all one he should haue saied not onely that it is necessarie for an archbishop which is for a bishop but also that whatsoeuer is necessarie for an archbishop â—s likewise for a bishop Where he saith they differ onely in order and policie and therfore all attributed in the Epistle to Timothe the Archbishop agreeth vnto euery bishop theroff followeth that a commen as he is called not differing in office from our bishop as himself confesseth after shall by the same reason haue power to doo all thinges described in that epistle and consequently make ministers and put owt as well as our bishops doo Thes thinges therfore were giuen owt or euer they were well thowght off some time tharchbishop differeth in office from a bishop sometime he differeth not sometime he differeth in order sometime not some time in degree sometime not To proue that S. Peter by him self withowt the autoritie off other Apostles instituted Archbishops ys browght the example off S. Paul which made Timothe and Tite Archbishops which is to proue one thing in controuersie by that which is likewise and is all one as if one doubting the suffiencie off his creditor in steed off some substanciall man to assure his debt should haue a banck rowt browght to be bownd vnto him Which manner off reasoning when all men know how absurd it is it appeareth that the Ans vsing it continually is as they say at the end off his rolle That S. Paul did not appoint Titus and Timothe of his owne autoritie onely hath before appeared that he did not appoint theÌ„ Archbishops shall afterward God willing be shewed Beside that yt hath bene already off Timothe shewed that he was an Euangelist and the same reason is off Tite To my other reason that S. Peter would not graff the most noble plant as it is counted off the ministerie off the gospell in the rotten stocke off Archflamines he answereth that Peter might place Archbishops where the Archflamines were not in respect off them but in respect off the cytie Which distinction I confesse I vnderstand not onely I see that in this clowde and mist off confused and vndistinct distinctioÌ„ he would steale away vnespied for yf in the same cyties onely where there were Archflamines as we are borne in hand and in place off them Archbishops were placed and as the Archflamines were set to ouersee the flamines so the Archbishops to ouersee the bishops how can it be but they were placed as well in respect off those Achflamines as off the cities For they differ not in this point from Archflam considering that as archbishops were placed in respect off great cyties so were the Archflam before them Here also the Answ floteth in his iudgement off Peter For before he saide he had the cheife rule off the â—â—â—stles in all matters and here he was not aboue them in power so that onles he can mynce vs a diuersity betwene superior in rule and superior in power yt is cleare that he is not the same man here that he was there The lordes preistes and Sacrafices were before the preistes and sacrifices off the Gentills therfore that exception God instituted preistes and sacrifices though the Gentils had the like â—â— vaine to proue that there may be Archbishops as there were Archflamines A Kinge was necessarie for the Israelites to shadow owte to theÌ„ the kingdome of our S. Christe therfore that exaÌ„ple is owte of place To proue conformite betwene the people of God and Idolaters in thinges which are not necessarie as the Archebishoprick is confessed beside that yt ys an euill conclusion to saie there maie be conformitie betwene the people off God and Idolaters in cyuill affaires therfore in ecclesiasticall to ordeine a bishopp and mynister being the institution of God in euery churche where there was other a flamen or masse preiste can not be saide to be framed according to those orders But to ordeine an Archbishop not instituted off God bothe in that place where the Archflamen was and with that rule and autoritie ouer the bishopes which the archflam had ouer their flameÌ„s can not be imagined but to haue bene framed according to that Idolatrous function Yf yow will therfore make the like yow must proue that as yt ys the institucion of God that in euery churche there sholde be a bishop or mynister
so yt ys likewise his institution that in euerie greate cytie there shoulde be an Archbishop The allegation owte of maister Fox in the nexte perteineth not to this place For the question is not heere whether the Archbishops came in steede off Arflamines but wether S. Peter did ordeine archbishops in place off the archflamines which I assure my selfe yow can not shew owte off him Here he hath at one push thrust the archbishop quite owte off the churche For if this be a good reason there were no deacons emongeste the Iewes becawse they were not specified in the oulde Testament then yt is likewise trew that forsomuche as there ys no Archbishop specified in the new Testament there was no Archbishop in the Apostles tymes Againste this take off Peters ordeining off Archbishops in the place off Archeflamens add this that the vanitie off yt maie appeare forasmuche as if there were any Archeflamens in S. Peters tyme they were vpholden off the Magystrates that lyued in those dayes And therfore to put downe them and place other in their roumes there was required S. Peter besyde his keyes sholde haue a sworde and an armie off men For the Magystrates being then as the Ans himselfe graunteth heathenishe and Idolatrous this alteracioÌ„ could neuer be made but by stronge hand and at the swordes poynt The rest bare affirmacions and confuted in other places I leaue Whether the Sadduces were collectors for the poore I will not enter further into although his reason off not being specified in the ould testament is vnsufficient For yt ys enough yf yt be in new or ould consydering that the baptisyng off the Israelites in the sea and spirituall feeding by Manna and the water following them being vnder the ould Testament are onely specifyed in the new besyde that his argument is negatiue off one part off the scripture which he condemneth in vs off the whole Agaynste the reason I bring to proue that there were no Archflamines ys answered that the matter ys not great yt standeth vppon the lyfe off the Archbishop For yf yt be found a Canturberye tale off Saint Peters placyng off Archbishops in place off Archflamynes being not off the Apostles planting We may both boldlyer and easelier pull hym vp by the rootes Then he saith an argument off humane autorytye negatyue ys not good Wherin I refer my selfe to that sayed before in that behalf and leaue yt to euery mannes consyderation what lykelyhood there ys that there were suche when Tullye dyuiding and distinguyshing the offyces occupied about their Gods maketh no mention off that supposed to haue bene cheyf Where he asketh why the Grecians might not call him Archflamin whom Tullie called Flamen Dialis I am content let that be triall And yf he can shew me ether Plutarch or Dyonisyus Halicarnaseus or any other good greek or latin auncient wryter that there was any such office I will moue no further disputation in this matter Therfore I woulde gladly know of yow what prâ—phâ—â—e 〈◊〉 they be which make mention off thes Archflamines For the founteines from which this report cometh are not ecclesiasticall but papisticall Last off all to proue that there were Archflamines and withall to lay open my vnskilfullnes in stories yt is alledged that there were such in England But how doth he shew my vnskilfulnes which sheweth nothing wherin I preuented hym not I knew well that there were that saied so I alledged them but with what truth and fidelitie that ys the question To deciding wheroff besyde reproches what ys browght he will say paraduenture M. Fox Yf thow turne gentle reader thother side off the leafe wherowt the sentence ys taken thow shalt vnderstand manifest treacherie for M. Fox disputeth against this opinion and vseth diuers reasons which confute flatly this fable off the conuersion off England by Eleutherius Embassadours and setteth downe that sentence by way off concession rather caried agaynst his will by certein stories in this vntruth then led by his owne Iudgemente Note also that the D. ys directly here for Harding agaynst the Bishop off Sarum both in this fable off Eleutherius and the Archflamines For towching archflamines he saith yt ys a mere phantasie grounded vpon an vnsauorie fable off Clementes and Anacletus and that nether the name Archflamines or protaflamines is to be found in any auncient allovved vvriter and towching thother fable of Eleutherius obiected by Harding as now by the D. he answereth it is vntrue adding reasons there to be seeÌ„ And that this fable wherof Geffrey MonumeteÌ„sis was autor may better appeare hauing a litle treatise theroff sent me with M. Foxes leafe well writteÌ„ in that behalf that in the profit the church shall receyue the autor also may haue some fruict off his trauaill I will here set yt downe Geffrey Monumetensis maketh here in Britayn before Lucius tyme 28. flamines and 3. Archflamines and when Lucius receiued the Christian fayth that the 28. flamines were changed into 28. Bishops and the 3. Archflam into 3. Archbishops which had three seates in the three cheif cyties off the Isle London Yorck and Caerust Vnto London was subiect Loegria vnto Yorck Deira and Albanya vnto Caerusk Cambryâ— Thus all the Isle by this storie off Geffrey should become Christened in Lucius tyme But this could not come to passe vpon Lucius receiuing the Religion of Christ onles he had been king ouer all Britayn Now the manner off the Britaynes was not to haue one king alone but many as may most plainly appeare both before Lucius time and after by the ould Romane histories and also by Gildas the Britanie historiographer who liued about 1100. agoe Diodorus Siculus saith there are many kinges and Frinces when he speaketh off Brytain shewing what yt was in the daies off Iulius Cesar After whom the Emperour that did attempt to subdue the Brytaines was Claudius more then 50. yeares after that Iulius Cesar made warre vppon them at which tyme what the gouernement of Brytanes was in hauing Kinges thus writteth Dion Cassius The Britaines vvere not free but subiect to diuers Kinges Now an hundreth yeare after this almost which is nigh the tyme that Lucius is saied by Geffrey to be King of Britayn thus writeth Cornelius Tacitus In tymes past they obeyed Kinges novv by Princes they are distracted vvith factions and partes taking nether is there any other thing more profitable for vs against most mightie nations then that they take no commen counsaill yt is seldome that tvvo or three cyties come together to vvithstand a commen daunger so vvhilest they fight seuerally they are ouercommed vvholy This writeth Tacitus sonne in law off that Lucius Agricola who had the rule off this Isle 8. yeares continuall in the raigne off Domitian the Emperour and therfore could not but well vnderstand the manner off the Britaine 's in hauing at once many Princes gyuen to tumultes Now in the daies off Seuerus the Emperour who raigned by