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A27058 The true history of councils enlarged and defended against the deceits of a pretended vindicator of the primitive church, but indeed of the tympanite & tyranny of some prelates many hundred years after Christ, with a detection of the false history of Edward Lord Bishop of Corke and Rosse in Ireland ... and a preface abbreviating much of Ludolphus's History of Habassta : written to shew their dangerous errour, who think that a general council, or colledge of bishops, is a supream governour of all the Christian world ... / by Richard Baxter ... ; to which is added by another hand, a defence of a book, entituled, No evidence for diocesan churches ... Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1682 (1682) Wing B1438; ESTC R39511 217,503 278

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fact yea the most publick of the persons place and time which our senses have given us notice of that we must believe them with as great difficulty as we must believe Transubstantiation even in opposition to all our senses and experience And whether those men be fit Vindicaters of the Bishops and Councils above a Thousand years ago which are blamed by the Historians of their own Age and by their own Confessions and by their most servent Defenders who notoriously misreport the persons and actions of their own Place and Age I think it is not hard to judge I will instance in Twenty particulars of publick notice for those against particular persons even my self are not to be numbred I. It is now commonly taken for true that the present Nonconformists who gave in their Desires for Concord 1660. are of the same Judgment as those called Nonconformists heretofore and whatever can be raked up out of Christ Goodman Knox Kilby or is reported by Bancroft is partly chargeable on them when as their proposed Desires yet shew the world that they never made any motion against many things by those aforesaid scrupled in Doctrine Worship and Ceremony And it is commonly supposed by them that the present Conformity is but the same as the Old and the Case no harder to us And this notwithstanding all the still visible Acts and Alterations and Additions which attest the contrary to all the world II. In most of their Invectives the present Nonconformists are argued against as if they had been in the Civil War against the King or had been guilty of it more than the Conformists And that War is made a Reason of their Silencing whereas so few of them had any hand in it that I have many times told them that if they will Silence none but those that they can prove guilty of any War or Rebellion or Sedition the rest of us will give them a thousand Thanks though we suffer our selves Few of the present Nonconformists were then in the Ministry and of those few that were few now living meddled with War III. They are so confident that the Parliament and Army that began the War in England were Nonconformists yea Presbyterians and not of the Church of England that Mr. Hinkley here Mr. Morrice make a renouncing of their Senses or Understandings necessary to the believing of it And yet they might as well tell us that they were all Turks or Papists Are not a Parliament and an Army things publick enough to be known in the same Age When we name to them the Chief Lords and Commons and Chief Commanders yet and lately living who are known still to live in their own Communion and when we challenge them to name Three Presbyterians that were then in the House of Lords or the House of Commons or many that were at first Commanders in the Army and we name them the Men that then Commanded who were commonly known to be Conformists of the Church of England And if they will not believe their present practice and profession they may yet go to them and be satisfied from their own mouths what were their former Principles I have told them of a most credible Member of that Parliament yet living who hath ost profest to me that he knew but one Presbyterian in the House of Commons when the war began and I have named that one man to them to try if they can name another I expect not that they should believe me or such other concerning those whom we knew But they may believe the men themselves yet living their most familiar Friends Yea the Records of many foregoing Parliaments with Laua's Life written by Dr. Heylin fully sheweth them that the difference arose 1. About the fear of Popery and Arminianism as they thought tending towards it 2. About Property Loan-mony Knight-mony and after Ship-mony c. 3. About Imprisonment of members and other Gentlemen And these were still the quarrel But saith Mr. M. How then shall we believe our senses Ans See Reader whether his most confident Errours about past things be any wonder He is not so sure of what he saith of the old Prelates or the Nestorians Eutychians c. as he is that he must believe his Senses And his very senses tell him that a Parliament even Lords Commons and an Army many of whom are yet living were of another opinion in Religion than ever they were then acquainted with and which was known to very few in England till afterward And this contrary to their Profession and practice and the senses of their acquaintance Lords are Persons of so publick notice that they may easily yet be informed of the living and the dead In the Army the Chief Commanders were the E. of Essex the E. of Bedford yet living Sir John Merrick the E. of Peterborough Dolbiere the E. of Stamford the Lord Hastings E. of Huntington the Lord Rochford E. of Dover the Lord Fielding E. of Denbigh the Lord Mandevile E. of Manchester the Lord Roberts now Earl of Radnor and President of his Majesties Council the Lord St. Johns killed at Keim●n Fight Only the Lord Say and Lord Brook were known Independents and whether the Lord Wharton yet living was then for Bishops or against them I know not but all the rest were of the Church of England And so were the other Collonels Sir Henry Cholmley the late Lord Hollis Col. Will. Bampfield Col. Tho. Grantham Col. Tho. Ballard C. Sir William Fair fax Col. Charles Essex Col. Lord Willoughby of Parham Col. Sir Will. Waller Col. Edwin Sandys Cap. Lord Grey of Grooby and I think then Sir Will. Constable and Col. Hampden What mind Sir Will. Balfoore was of I know not But I know his Country man Col. Brown was too far from a Puritane But saith Mr. M. 1. It 's well the Bishops had no share in it Ans Let Heylin tell you what hand the difference between A. Bishop Abbats Church of England and Laud's then little Party had in the preparations 2. And was the A. Bishop of York no Bishop who afterward was a Commander for the Parliament But saith he I pray where were the Presbyterians when the Parliament took up Arms Were they not then in being Ans An excellent Historian that maintaineth Parliament and Army were such as he knows not whether they were then in being Yes Sir they were in Holland and France and Geneva and Scotland and in England there was one John Ball and one Mr. Langley and a few more such old Nonconformists that never were in Arms and old John Dod and one Mr. Geree that was against the war and dyed for grief of the Kings death But among those called Puritans few knew what Presbytery was till the Scots afterward brought it in Much less did Lords Commons and Army know it In your sense Sir they were not then in being and therefore could not fight It appears by Bancroft and others that there had been once