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A18003 A discourse, concerning two diuine positions The first [ef]fectually concluding, that the soules of the faithfull fathers, deceased before Christ, went immediately to heauen. The second sufficientlye setting foorth vnto vs Christians, what we are to conceiue, touching the descension of our Sauiour Christ into hell: publiquely disputed at a commencement in Cambridge, anno Domini 1552. Purposely written at the first by way of a confutation, against a booke of Richard Smith of Oxford, D. of Diuinity, entitled a Refutation, imprinted 1562, & published against Iohn Caluin, & C. Carlile: the title wherof appeareth in ye 17. page. And now first published by the said Christopher Carlile, 1582. Carlile, Christopher, d. 1588? 1582 (1582) STC 4654; ESTC S107537 141,619 356

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A DISCOVRSE Concerning two diuine Positions The first ●●fectually concluding that the soules of the faithfull fathers deceased before Christ went immediately to heauen The second sufficientlye setting foorth vnto vs Christians what we are to conceiue touching the descension of our Sauiour Christ into Hell Publiquely disputed at a Commencement in Cambridge Anno Domini 1552. Purposely written at the first by way of a confutation against a Booke of Richard Smith of Oxford D. of Diuinity entituled a Refutation imprinted 1562 published against Iohn Caluin C. Carlie the title wherof appeareth in y e 17. page And now first published by the said Christopher Carlile 1582. Si quid hallucinor hallucinamur enim omnes Anglicae E●…clesiae cui me totum dedo esto iudicium ¶ Imprinted at London by Roger Ward dwelling by Holborne conduit at the signe of the Talbot ANNO 1582. TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE HENRY EARLE OF Huntington L. Hastinges Hungerford Botreux Molins and Moyles knight of the moste noble order of the garter Lord president of her Maiesties Counsell established in the North partes Christopher Carlil wisheth eternall felicitie Idolatry and Blasphemie are to be corrected by the ciuill Magistrate and in like maner the corruption of maners as Moses decreed by the voyce of Iehoua and setteth downe Godly Lawes to that effect Errors in doctrine are to be reformed by examination the authours thereof reduced by perswasion conuinced by the worde and reconciled by exhortation and mutuall cōference Wherein we ought to folowe the example of the high magistrate Iehoua who neither condemned Adam Caua nor Cayne before he called them examined them and heard them Magistrates therefore must examine by Lawes direct by iudgement and conclude by conscience guided by the worde of God Let vs set before our eyes the most auncient and godly men as well in doctrine as in gouernement Adam and Seth by learning or rather by inspiratiō which tendeth to the same ende made two Pillers wherein they wrote a double subuersion of the worlde the one by Water the other by fier They instructed their posterity and gouerned them with the lawe and comfortable Gospel Enoch wrote books as wee may read in the epistle of Iude Noac preached the Worde and therefore called the eight preacher of righteousnes whose Sermons are plentifully described by Sybilla Erythraea Abraham did the like Moses Iethro and such other Princes executed both the functions instructed with the worde and reformed by lawes So Dauid Salomon and Iosias blessed the people instruc ted the people and therefore are they called Cohenim because they both taught and gouerned and by the same name were the sonnes of Dauid tearmed in that respect Iosaphat sent out his nobility to preach These examples with many others of like dignity honour and authority haue emboldened me also at this time to number your ●… as one among them with such modestie as becōmeth a loyall Christiāto craue your honorable patrocinie in subuerting the arrogant attempts im pudēt assaults of the Antichristians whose wisdom in examining whose iudgment in discerning whose magnanimitie in defending the truth I haue alwaies had as wel is knowē in singular admiratiō Iehoua the Eternall originall cause of all thinges indiuisible in substance diuisible in properties encrease your ho nours zeale in publishing the scriptures to the subuersion of Antichristianisme authoritie in defendinge the truth alacritie in encoraging others to search the fountaines and perseuerance in amplifiyng the kingdome of Christ. At London the 13. of May 1582. Your Honours at commaundement Christopher Carlil To the Reader WHAT Hell is when it began where it is and whether Christ descended or ascended thither and what hee should do there are questions no lesse doubtful then necessary doutfull for that the Doctors are variable necessarye to be knowne for auoiding of fables and pernicious heresies These matters were disputed in Cambridge at the commencement in the yeare of Christ. 1552. Doctor Perne then Uicechauncelor began thus against the defendent All the Scriptures all the Doctors and generall Councels are contrary to your assertion Not so saith the defendent for the Scriptures are all with me●… as for your Doctors and Councels when you alleadge them they shall be aunswered Then the Doctor replyed saying how aunswere you this texte Thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell Then said the defendent it is not so in y ● Hebrue but thus Thou wilt not forsak●…●…r leaue my body in the graue Then stoode vp M. Ghest late Bishop of Sarisbury put forth this Enthimema Christ ascended into ●…eauen Ergo he descended into hell It is saith the defendent as absurd an Argument as this Christ ascended to Hierusalem Ergo he des●…ended to Iericho Doctor Younge mine old ac●…aintaunce in Philosophy and a learned ma●… reasoned thus Thou shalt not leaue my soule in h●…ll for it is saith he in Greeke eis hadou The defendant aunswered that he should haue added according to the propertie of the Greeke phrase eis oicon hadou meaning therby the Graue which is called in Iob y ● house of death Well saith he you lea●…e too much to the Rabbines and with those wordes made an ende Sir Iohn Cheeke a man moste experte in all kind of artes and tongues and of most exquisite iudgment prosecuted D. Young his Argument more at large repeating the 24. verse of the 2. of the Actes after the old Latine translation on this sorte Whom God hath raised loosing the sorrowes of hell The defendant denied y ● Translation and recited the Greeke wordes translated them truly according to the mind of Peter on this manner Whome God hath raised loosing the sorrowes of death To that sir Iohn Cheeke aunswered thus he did not loose the sorrowes of Death but the sorrowes of Hel. Not so saith the defendaunt for it is in Greeke Death not Hel. Then called Sir Iohn Cheeke for a Greeke Testament and founde it euen so as the defendaunt had aduouched Then said sir Iohn Cheeke the Disputation is at an ende vnlesse you will graunt for disputation sake y ● Infernus is taken in this place for the Graue otherwise I haue no scope to reason contente saith the defendant for Sheol signifieth y e graue Because saith Sir Iohn Cheeke that you reason after the order of Socrates I will reason with you Socraticallye and thus hee began Are there any sorrowes in the graue the defendant aunswered that there were sorrowes in y ● Graue by Prosopopoia so reasoneth Paule saying y ● euery creature desireth his renouatiō thus he writeth For the earnest expectation of the creature abideth looking when the sonnes of God shall appeare because the creature is subiect to vanity not willing but for him which hath subdued the same in hope for the creature it selfe shall be made free frō the