for thus they are woÌ„t to do when they finde vs open Vli. Seo a subtill crafte And who hath taughte you to beware of them and so to fly these their deceyptes Oyst Nature that neuer fayleth to any thynge of that that is necessarye Vly Be wythoute feare and speake safely for I wyll watche Oyst Go to then harken vnto me Tell me a litle Vlisses you menne that glorye your selues so much to be more parfitte and more wise then we for that you haue the discourse of reason do not you esteme those thinges more the whiche you iudge to be better then thother Vli. Yea verely and this rather is one of the chiefe sygnes wherby our perfection and wisedome may be knowen Forasmuche as the esteming of euerye thinge alike commeth of the litle knowing of their nature and goodnes and is a manifest token of folyshenes Oyst And do not you loue them better then thother of lesse estimation Vlis. Ye bycause euer by the knowledge eyther loue or hatred foloweth For all those thinges that appeare good vnto vs are beloued and desyred and contrarye those that seme noughte to vs are hated and eschewed Oyst And louynge them more then the rest haue you not also greater care of theym Vli. Who dowteth therof Oyst Thinkest not thou that nature also doeth the selfe same or that intelligence that guideth her and with much more reason then you because she can not erre as oftenne times I haue harde saye of those Philosophers of Athenes whiles I to sell the fishe that I toke stode by the gallaries where they a great parte of the daye disputed and reasoned together Vli. This thinke I also Oyst Yf thou graunt me this thou hast graunted me also that we are better and more noble then you Vli. And by what meanes Oyst Because Nature makynge more accompte of vs then she hath done of you it foloweth y t she loueth vs better And louing vs better she doth it for none other cause then for that that I haue told thee Vli. What me thinketh thou arte the best Logitian of Athenes Oyst I knowe not what Logique meaneth coÌ„sider howe I may be a Logitian I speake in such sort as nature hath taught me And this reason myght euery one make that hath the discourse of reason and it is moste true Vli. Yea yf it were true that Nature sette more by you then she doeth by vs. Oist This is easie to proue and yf thou wilte that I shew it thee harken vnto me and because thou shalt perceaue the better I will that we beginne from the fyrst day that she bringeth forthe both you and vs into the world the which is the daye of our birth Where tell me I pray thee what care hath she shewed to haue of you syns she causeth you to be borne naked wher contrary she hath shewed to esteme vs muche causing vs to come into the world clothed some with lether some with heare some with scales some with one thing and some with an other the which is a manifest token that she hath greatly in her harte mynded our conseruation Vli. This reason maketh not for thee for though she hath made vs naked and couered vs with so thinne a skinne that we are hurte by euery lytle thing she â—â—th done it for that we hauing to exercisethe fantasie and other our inner senses farre more diligently then you to serue afterwardes the vnderstanding it was conueniente that our members and perticulerly those orgaines and those instrumentes wher those operations are made shuld be of a more gentle and more lyghte matter and so also more subtill bloud more hote then youres are wherby the wekenes of our complexion groweth For if we wer made of those euyll humors and those grosse bluddes that ye are wherby it foloweth that you ar more strong and of more lusty complexion theÌ„ we but yet not of longer life for this coÌ„meth of the temperature of y e complexion in which thing we passe you very muche therfore we haue the perceueraunce of touchinge muche more perfyt then you for it perceyueth euery moste little difference it should folowe that we should be of lytle knowledge and of litle witte as you are For as these Phisnomiers saye the customes of the mind folow the complexions of the body whereby it is euer sene that to the members of a Lion the conditions of a Lion and to the members of a Beare the conditions of a Beare folowe And that this is trewe marke well amonge men and thou shalt see that they who are made of grosse humours are also grosse of witte and contrarie they that are of thinne and quicke fleshe are lykewyse quicke of witte so that nature willyng to make vs reasonable of most perfit knowledge was in maner enforced to make vs so Oist Enforced no I will not beleue this yet because she making all thinges mought haue made them as she had listed and mought very wel haue kepte an other rule and an other order in them And for an example to make that water of it self should heate fyre should refreshe Vli. Ye but this wonderfull order the which is among all creatures and from whence eche one confesseth his bewtie to come could not by this meanes haue bene in the whole world Oist No ther shuld haue bene an other froÌ„ whence an other maner of beuty shuld haue proceded peraduenture farre fairer theÌ„ this Vli. Whiles we are vpon peraduenture we walke as out of the way But what matter maketh it thoughe nature hath made vs naked since she hath geuen vs such knowledge and streÌ„gth that we can couer vs with your clothes Oist Ye but with what danger how many of you haue come to mischiefe by your myndinge to take vs to serue your selues of oures And besydes this with howe great labour For if you wil be serued with oure skinnes you must dresse them our heare you must spinne them weue theym and do a thousand other thinges vnto them before you bring them into such frame that you may serue youre selues of them Vli. These laboures are swete and pleasaunte vnto vs. Ye they are rather a pastime to vs theÌ„ otherwyse Oist Ye to them that do it for pastyme as thou sometimes doest but aske a litle of those who do it enforced by necessitie and to scratche out by their laboures so muche as may serue theyr very nede and thou shalt see yf they will saye that these paines seme pleasaunte to them or no. I for myne owne parte knowe that whiles I was a maÌ„ it greued me so much to labour that as I haue told the I made my selfe a fyssher and I would haue willyngly put my selfe to any more heinous occupation so that I mought not haue labored esteminge it to be an arte of oxen who alwaies laboure and when they can no more are then knocked on the hed with a betell Vli. Yf thou madest thee a fysher because thou wouldest not
fantasie to become manne againe for I should continually be full of humoures and of vayne thoughtes wher as after thys sorte I liue contented and wythoute anye thought at al. And I should also haue lesse remembraunce to be willing to retourne into a state full of so many troubles and myseryes So that labor no more Vlysses for I will none of this thy fauor for it wyll put me vnder a thousand infirmities and I should neuer be able to enioy one desire assuredlye but rather for euerye lyttle surfette I should feele a thousande sorowes And that y t is worse I should haue nede to kepe my selfe from death being subiecte to meyminge me and to lyue euer after myshapen and sicke So that go on thy waye for I will go to rubbe my scales a lytle on yonder gineper because I maye moue it the easelier where I shal fele so much pleasure and delite that perchaunce I neuer proued the lyke being man for that it shalbe without respecte or any displeasure at all whereas youres are euer mingled with such bytternes that manye of you speakynge thereof haue sayde a thousande pleasures were not worthe one trouble or tormente Vli. In thende I haue to do with beastes And although Circes geue them power to speake and aunswere me yet as me thinketh she hath not geuen them their wittes for they consider onely certayne of the least thinges and not that that importeth But yet I will not leue so fayre an enterprise for I will retourne vnto Circes that she may cause me to speake to the rest that are here to do good vnto those that are better able to perceiue For as the prouerbe sayeth euell may be done to one by force but good neuer The third Dialoge Vlisses Cyrces the Hare YF I knewe not howe gret the loue were that thou bearest me most noble Cyrces I should doubt in dede that thou wouldest not graunte me the fauour that I haue asked of thee And thou not willing to denye it me hast onely caused me to speake with such as thou knowest had there mind so determined not to become men againe that any man could neuer perswade them and so I might leue thenterprise Cir. Let neuer any such thought enter into thy minde of me Vlisses For this apperteineth neither to the loue that I beare thee nor yet to the mightines and noblenes of my mynd euer geuen to most glorious enterprises for thou knoest wel that he who can not forbeare plesures can not also do them Vli. Thou hast caused me to speake with one who is more obstinate then those others And wheras I thought to do him a good torne in making him returne man leding him againe into his countrie his obstinacie blindeth him so much y t he saith he should do farre worse to chaunge that state with this Cir. Yf thou Vlysses haddest also proued theyr state thou wouldest peraduenture do the lyke Vli. This fellowe whiles he was man saith he was a phisitioÌ„ who as thou knowest neuer see any other thing then hurtes griefes filthines sicknesses of men they neuer here any other thing then lamentations and wepinges wherof he now remembring him self because the euil is euer better kept in mynd then the good he wil not I think become man againe Cir. In al states of men the troubles miseries are many mo then the contentations and felicities Vli. Then had that our wise man done il if it wer so who among other thinges for the which he gaue dayly thankes vnto the goddes thanked them for that they had made him man not a beast Cir. He did so because such is thoppinion of the greater part of men led by those reasonnes that maye be gathered by reasonable discourse But more credite should be geuen vnto those who hauing proued the one life and the other know it by experience and by the sensitiue knowledge the whiche passeth not onely and excedeth all others in assurednes but is also the beginninge and foundation of all Vli. Yea but the life of beastes shuld not be compared to ours for that it is much more imperfecte Cir. I beleue not this for I see many beastes that haue theyr sences farre more perfecte then you and that in operation of them passe you very farre Vli. Ye truly they passe vs in some perticuler sence as for example the Egle in seing the Dogge in smelling and the Gose in hearinge but they are then so farre inferior vnto vs in iudgement of sensible thinges because they haue not the common sence so perfect as we and that they lacke altogether the reasonable discourse and ablenes in comparing one sence with an other for our sensitiue knowledges are farre perfecter then theirs But cause me to speake with some other â—or I thinke not that all haue so lost the true knowledge of resonne as these three haue to whom I haue spoken whom truly thou hast not chaunged into such an vnperfect kinde of beastes without a cause sins they lyke men haue so imperfect a discourse Cir. I am contented thou shalt speake with yonder Hare that thou seest feadinge at the shadowe of yonder Oke Go thither and call him for I haue graunted him to speake Vli. Hare as God geue thee that that thou desyred runne not away but tary me and withsafe to answer me for Cyrces hath told me that thou canst so do Ha. Alas what meaneth this I haue agayne the vnderstanding of the signification of the speache of man Oh my vnhappy chaunce why haste thou brought me agayne into suche miserie Vli. Callest thou it then miserie to vnderstande the speache of man Ha. Mysery and moste great infelicitie yf they haue not chaunged theyr nature synce the tyme that I was a man Vli. And what is the occasion Hare Ha. Alas whiles I was man I neuer hearde other then lamentyng and sorowinge most bitterlye one with another Vli. Surely I haue auoyded one mischiefe and am runne into another Thother was a phisition wherby he neuer practised but the sicke and euill contented persons and this by as much as I can perceiue should neuer haue practised but with desperates Ha. These thinges were often vnto me occasion of such sorowe that I would farre rather haue abyden in a wood where I should neuer haue seene the steppes of men and truely I would haue done it yf the nature of man could haue borne it But thou knowest that man hath nede of so many thinges that he can not liue alone but with a thousand incommodities Vli. And dost thou heare no beast also lament Ha. It is true For when those of mine owne kynd haue any griefe I knowe it streight by the voyce for it is naturall to euery beast to shewe with the varietie of the sound of his voice whether he be mery or sory But these such naturall voyces shewe me onely theyr griefe in generall the whiche kinde of sorowinge is farre easier to be borne then the sorowinge of
ar not gouerned by women seme in respect of the others like hogge sties and not a paradise as some of you heretofore haue had hert to saye I will say nothing at all of the gouernement of your bodies because the apparaunce it selfe the apparell and many other thinges cause those men to be manifestlye knowen who are gouerned by women from thothers Vli. Truely in these thinges you can do very well Hi. We shall also do euen as well in greater thinges yf you would suffer vs to put our handes therto Vli. Well go no further leaste it chaunce to you as it dyd to a certayne shomaker who fyndinge fault with an ymage for hauing the buckle of his shoe amysse and beyng praysed therfore toke courage to disprayse him in certayne other places whereby it was sayde to him hold thy peace for this belongeth not to thee Hi. And yet at the least with all this I would we might please you But you neuer do any other thing then lament you of vs nor yet can we neuer haue good worde of you Vli. I will not that thou say thus for we alwayes honoure you much more then our owne selues Hi. Not with geuinge vs any rule or aucthoritie at all eyther in the house or abrode but with settinge vs at the highest place of the takle or with some louing woorde and this onelye in the flower of our age by the occasyon of our beautie that drawâ—th your desyres to please vs but when the beauty is paste God knoweth howe we are handeled at your handes both with wordes and dedes Vli. Ah lay not so for this should be to great vnkindnes Hi. I will not speake of dedes for not publishinge of that that euery man knoweth not so well But howe can you excuse your selues of words sins you haue made for a prouerbe that a husband hath onely two good dayes of his wife that is the daye that she commeth to his house and thother is when she goeth out thereof borne to her graue Vli. Those are thinges that men sometimes speake merely one to an other and to passe ouer the troubles of the world but they thinke not so in dede And that this is true see howe the most parte or rather all men take wines and I will say further to thee that they that take none are alwaies taken for straunge meÌ„ and of a life of small praise Hi. And what vse you not also to say that he who hath had a wife deserueth a crowne of pacience but he that hath had twaine deserueth a crowne of folly Vli. This was not saide without some occasion For the second mariages and chiefely to them that haue children are for the more parte greater occasions of euill then of good And they seldome tyme haue that knot of loue that y e firste haue And also in keping you companye pacience is very necessary for you are all by nature somewhat vngracious so that one of our wise men was wont to say that when a woman went to her husbaÌ„d she caried one of her handes before and therein a litle fyre brand a light meaninge thereby that she put fyre inâ—o the house wherein she entred Hi. Nay be not ashamed to say the reste also howe he said that she caried in the hande behinde a hoke to robbe the house whereof she went out Vli. I will not denye that some of these thinges haue not bene sayde by some of those whom we haue called wise men and the frowarde nature of some of you hath bene thoccasion therof nor I will not also denye the straungenes that some of vs somtimes vseth towardes you they I say that are nought and of litle knowledge for they knowe not howe profitable you are vnto vs and with how many incommodities and troubles we should leade our life without your helpe But I will euen confesse vnto thee that we are without you a thinge imperfecte wherefore we oughte alwaies to make much of you and haue the same estimation of you that we haue of our selues And he that doeth otherwise deserueth not to be called a man And although it appere vnto vs that nature hath made you of lesse valor then vs we should yet consider that she hath done it for our benefite For yt you were of that valor and of that wit that we are you would not take paynes in those thinges that you do in seruing vs wherof the profite commeth to be ours of the which we are no lesse bound vnto you theÌ„ vnto nature for geuing vs the being So that let it not greue you if some one haue spoken vnaduisedly of you that that thou saiest for they are many moo that haue praysed you and worthely For there hath bene no lacke of those that haue sayd that we should liue so miserably without you that it should be better to dye and that you are our crowne As that most wise king of Egypt did who willing to shewe his riches to an other king at the last for the most noble thing he had he shewed him his wife saying that there coulde not be founde by any man a more precious â—ewell then a wise woman Hi. And if it be so how chaunseth it then that we be so euill handled by you Vli. And what would you in thende that we should do Hi. Haue I not told thee alredy that you should kepe vs for companions and not for seruants Tell me I pray thee what right is this that you haue taken for a custome that it is lawfull for you to do as you liste and not for vs brideling vs with the daunger of our honesties why doo not you aswell also dishonest a familye when you geue place so losely to your appetites as you say that we do who are muche more prouoked therto theÌ„ you are not so much by that most burning desyre that the forbydding vs a thyng causeth as by your insatiable and cursed importunitie And then yf you haue taken ons our honesties from vs do you not thinke vs worthye of all blame Vli. Why do ye not keepe it then more diligently then you do Hi. Howe shoulde it be possible for vs to kepe it when euery one of you hath a keye thereof So that blame your selues and lay the faut one your selues wheÌ„ you see any of vs lose our honesty And by soo much the more as you say you are of greter braine and more wisedome then we Vli. Yf thou diddest well consider the cause that moueth vs to do this thou woldest saye it were reasonablye done But thou measurest your beinge with oures and hereby groweth the errour Tell mâ— a litle dost thou thinke it reasonable that a man shuld leue those goodes and those honors that he hath gotten with his trauayle and his wisedome to one that is not his childe Hy. No truelye Vli. And howe should he be by any meanes assured that the childe were his if it were lawfull for you to do your desires the which thing maketh no
his complexion in suche sorte that he him selfe is the cause of all his hurtes Li. I speake not of euyles of the body Vlysses I speake of them of the mynde who are farre more weighty and more daungerous Vli. Nay I will not that thou saye this so resolutely For this our bodye beynge none other thinge then a wagan that carieth our soule yf he be feable and weake the soule canne not doo perfectlye her operatiōs or els with very gret difficultie Li. I will not deny that the vnapte dispositions of the body let not the operatiōs of the mynd But I saye verely that the infirmities of the mynd do much more hurt to man then those of the bodie do and that there come many mo euils and daungers of the one then of thother But why labour I in this who shal he be that can say that they are not farre worse and more greuous being in the best part and most noble of man Vli. I knowe well that the mynd is more noble then the body notwithstanding not being able to worke without the body euen so hurteth the euill of the one as of the other Li. Wilt thou see Vlysses that the euils of the body are farre lesse daungerous thē those of the mind for man eyther by the yll colour of the face or by thinordinate mouing of the pulses or by wekenes or by a thousand other meanes knoweth thē all and seketh streight to be holpen therof where as those of the mynde deceiue vs very often times soo much that not onely we seke not to be fre therof but we accoumpte theym good whereby afterwarde groweth our misery and continuall vnquietnes and often times the losse of our countrye of our frendes and children of goodes and honestie and a thousand other mischiefes Where as by them of the bodie the worst that can come thereof is death the which must come in anye wise But what needeth anye more yf among the euils of the body you recken those the worse that take from the patient the sense and knowledge as the letharge the franzie the fawlling sickenes and such lyke And if those of the minde do in such sort that he who hath them knoweth them not are not they then to be accompted most greuous Vli. Truely this sayinge is most true Li. Thou knowest that to be sicke sometimes is graunted by the Phisitions to be no great euill for that nature so requireth But yet not so much that manne knowe not that he is not in health and hath not nede to be holpen for the knowinge to haue nede of remedie is a very good signe in y e paciente that he shall recouer his health And thys can not be done in the euilles of the minde for he who by them is greued can make no right iudgemēt of himselfe the euil being in that parte to the which the iudgement thereof apperteyneth And for thys cause folishnes is the gretest euill that can chaunce to man For asmuch as he that hath it neuer knoeth it and knowing it not neuer seketh also if he may find any remedy to vnburden him selfe thereof Vli. This selfe same thing chaunseth properly to dronkerdes who till those fumes of the wyne be setled that let the places wher thinner senses must worke their operations knoing not their dronkennes whereby they thinkinge to do well do a thousand thinges worthy blame Li. Dronkennes is none other thing then a kind of folly But where as in this those organnes where the knowledge is made are marred for a time by the meanes of the wine in that other they are most commonlye marred for euer But what more greater signe wilte thou that the euilles of the mynde are more greuous then those of y e body then that y u shalt neuer find any speking of these of y e body cal an ague helth nor the hauing y e tisicke good soundnes nor the gout good disposition of y e wintes and in those of the mind thou shalte find many that call anger stoutnes wanton loue frendship enuy emulation and ferefulnes diligence Whereby it commeth that those seke and loue the Phisition and these flye and hate the rebuker Vli. Of howe much euill is this couering of vices with the cloke of vertue thoccasion in this worlde and wyth a name worthy of honor to do those thynges that deserue none other thynge then blame and dispraise Li. And put also to this that he who is troubled wyth any infirmitie of the bodye goeth most commonly to bed where he findeth whyles he gouerneth him selfe some rest and also some time to auoide the griefe of the euill yf he tosse aboute in the bed or moue to much he hath about him y t couereth him again ceseth not to bid him lye as stil as he may But he that is sicke in y e mind neuer findeth quiet or any rest at all but rather he lyueth in a continuall trouble and hath none that geueth him any contentation or helpe whereby euen as to them that saile that tempeste that suffereth them not to take the hauen is farre worse then that that letteth the sailinge So also the euils of the mynde neuer permitting him to take the hauen of reason and to anker in the same that is troubled with them are muche worse Finally if thou wilt plainely knowe howe farre they of the minde are worse consider that he who is subiecte to those of the bodie suffereth onely the euill but he that is subiecte to those of the mind suffereth not onely the euil but he doth it also Vli. Howe can this be sene sins all they cōmonly that do euil take hede y e men know it not Li. Seke the occasion of all the variaunces and calamities that chaunce in the worlde and thou shalt see it For thou shalte knowe that they come of none other thing then of ambition enuy auarice anger or of lyke infirmities of the mind of man the which besides the taking the vse of reason from him trouble him continuallye so muche that he neuer suffereth either him self or others in quiet and one of this sorte only is sufficient to trouble a whole citie and chiefely yf he be of any degre or authoritie at all Vli. Are not these diseases of the mynde the which thou saiest are so much more greuous and more daungerouse then those of the bodye found also amonge you Li. No. Vli. Take hede yet that thou be not so much deceyued by them that thou knowe them not for me thinketh that reason will that they be farre worse in you then in vs for that you haue not the vse of reason wher with you myght rule them Li. Yf we haue not the reasō as you haue wherwith you coulde perchaunce reframe theym though not all together yet at the lest in some part we haue not also an appetite so immoderate and so insatiable as you haue for that we know not of manye thinges that you knowe Tell me what
rightnesse and rule with the which they shoulde vse theym selues For what other is there but she that commaundeth the fortiall that he feare not and that he flye not those daungers that brynge him renowne and to the temperate that he geue not him selfe ouermuch vnto pleasures or that he doo not any thinge inconueniente to auoyde displeasures and vnto the meke that he doo none iniurie vnto others Who is there besides this but Justice that ordeyneth all the doynges of man measuring and reducinge into a conueniente meanes all theyr doynges as well those that they doo willinglye and freely as to â—ell to lende to gage and lyke thinges as also those that they doo as enforced eyther by disdayne or by theyr euill custome or secretely as thefte kyllinge by treason poysones treasones and false witnes bearing are or openly or without any respecte at all as are villanyes strypes meyming of the members and manslaughters and other such lyke outrages Vli. Truely this that thou sayst is true and for this cause there are some that call iustice the hole vertue addinge besydes this that she is more perfect then any other For as muche as the others make him good that possesseth them onelye as touching them selues and she gouerneth man not onely as touchinge her selfe but as touchinge others and wayeth not onely the perticuler benefite but the vniuerâ—all Ca. Then that that I say beyng true yf I shall prove vnto the that amonge you there is no Justice or moost lytle and not iustice truely it shall be proued by consequence that amonge you there is no vertue at all or moost lytle and not vertue truely Also yf I shall proue vnto thee afterwarde that there is more iustice among vs then among you it shalbe lykewise proued by consequence that we haue many moo vertues then you and that our beyng is farre better then yours Vli. Thy conclution is mooste true but the difficultie is in prouyng it Ca. Shall it not alwayes be proued when the propositions are proued that bringe it in ¶ Vli. Knowest thou so muche logike Ca. Why what miracle is that I beyng a Gretian For thou knowest that all we laboure therin whiles we be children Vli. Go to folow then Ca. The greater of the two propositions the whiche is where there is no iustice there is no vertue at all I haue already proued to thee synce thou haste graunted me that she conteyned all vertues in her for the whiche cause she hath bene called as thou saydest the hole vertue Vli. Go to I am contente nowe to the lesser Ca. And this also is moost euident yf that so famous a proposition of your wyse men be true sayinge that euery thinge is knowen by his operations And I will haue hereof none other witnesse then thyne for I thinke my selfe mooste sure that yf thou shalte diligently consider the operations of men thou shalt saye as I saye Vli. Ye peraduenture yf they did all after one forte Ca. It suffiseth that thou shalt see the more part do vniustly by whom the occasion should alwaies be taken to make iudgement of thinges But tell me I pray thee yf there were iustice amonge you naturally as there is amongest us or yf you liued according to that lawe that is written by nature in the hart of eche of you what nede should you haue of so many lawes as you haue made although as it is vsed to be sayd for a prouerbe they are lyke spiders webbes for the great beastes break them and the flyes remayne there Vli. It is true that yf eche one would doo vnto others as he would be done vnto as the lawe of nature willeth there should then nede none other lawes notwithstandinge the greater part of them are made by the declaration of the natural law and if they should swarue from that they should not be accompted iust For as thou shouldest knowe lyke as in speculatiue thinges there are somme as principles that are knowen to euerye man by theyr owne nature and by the lyghte of the vnderstanding wherfore they nede not be proued as it should be for an example that one onely thinge can be and can not be in one time And some other â–ª thinges as conclusions that procede from those fyrst poyntes and are grounded in them Soo are there also in actiue thinges certayne lightes and naturall principles knowen by a commune notyce and by the proper nature to eueryman as for example it should be not to do that vnto others that thou wouldest not shoulde be done vnto thee And then by these principles come these lawes written and are grounded on them Ca. It semeth to me that they are made for that you maye be able to interprete this naturall reason after your owne fashion and to plucke it this waye and that waye as it pleaseth you shewing that very often to be iuste with wordes that is most vniust in dedes and if thou take good hede to y t that I haue sayde vnto the w t experieÌ„ce thou shalt se that he who can best wrest a lawe vnto his desier is taken for the best doctor Vli. Speake to me of the lawes as touching them selues and led by Princes as those that are gouerned by the chiefe men or by the publike gouernaunce and thou shalte se what place the euill haue there and howe litle the good are estemed by the onely faut of the proper inordinat loue of those to whoÌ„ the distribution both of rewards and punishmentes belongeth who very often suffer them selues to be so much corrupted by profit or by pleasure or by some other vnreasonable passion that it is sometimes sene for one like vertuous operation one to be rewarded and no estimation at all to be made of an other And likewise also for one like offence to punishe one greuously one other not only not to be punished but to be rewarded and set in some degree Vli. And when that that thou saist were true that there is no distributiue iustice among vs howe is it then found amonge you for thou haste told me that you are farre more iust then we Ca. Euen asmuch as is required for our state and nature And yf thou obserue our operations thou shalte know it of thy self and perticulerly wheÌ„ thone of vs fighteth with an other where thou shalt see all vs reioise and make mirth to hâ—n that is the winner And that they that are vnprofitable are by vs continuallye dispised Vli. These you shoulde knowe of your owne selues whether it be true or not Nor I will dispute no more with thee thereof But what wilte thou say to me of the comutatiue parte how much is that among you Ca. Euen as much as is amongest you who haue not one most litle part therof but this difference ther is that among vs it is not founde for we haue no nede thereof hauing euery thing in common and among you for hauing seperate thine from mine you cannot liue frely without it for
ambition wilte thou that there be amongest vs for that all we be equall wherby the one of vs neuer dispiseth the other nor anye superioritie or degree of honor is amongest vs that should styrre our mindes to obteine it by any kind of vniust meanes as you do who are so far blinded by this desyre that you are wont to saye that yf one should violate iustice he should do it onely to reygne Enuye can neuer be amongest those of one selfe kinde they all being equall and lesse amonge those of an other kinde we hauing no iudgemente or knowledge at all of their felicitie Couetousnes for that we haue not thine deuyded from myne hath no place also amongest vs and soo lykewise manye other vyces that cause your lyfe to be most vnhappye whereby there haue bene amongest our wise Gretians which haue said that man amonge all other creatures helde the principalitie onelye of miseries and euilles Vli. Well admit that it be true that we haue many euils that you haue not we haue also many good things that are not amoÌ„g you Li. And what are those Vli. Vertues Li. And I say further to shee Vlisses that ther is no vertue at al in you that is not farre greater and more perfect in vs. Vli. I would gladlye that thou shouldest shew me this Li. And I desyre nothing els and I will begyn wyth Fortitude whereof thou takest so muche vayne glorie that thou causest thy selfe to be called a taker of cities and a tamer of people and not caryng in thyne enterprises to winne with crastes and deceiptes so that thou winne thou couerest vnder the name of sagacitie warenes that that is in thee a most euill vice Vli. Oh do me none iniurye I praye thee Li. I say not so to speake of thee alone wherfore pardon me yf thou thinke that I offend thee for I knowe well that all you esteme winning to be a laudable thing be it in what sorte soeuer it be the whiche is not so amongst vs wherby thou maâ—â—se y e al those wars y t we make aswel amoÌ„gest our selues as against you are made without any gyle or deceit of our parte at al and howe euerye one of vs trusting in his owne strength seketh to reuenge those inâ—uries that are done vnto hym not being vnder any lawe at all that inforceth him to do it nor fearing any punishemeÌ„t or dishonestie for the not doing them Vli. And who doeth shewe me that this is not anger rather then fortitude Li. The maner that we vse in fight where euery one of vs neuer suffering him selfe to be ouercome by the enemye makinge resistaunce with all his force euen to the vttermost without any abashmente or feare either of punishmente or of death seketh rather to dye fyghting then to be taken and neuer yeldinge to the enemye yf with none other thinge at the least with the minde the which thinge sheweth plainely that we praye not or put forth any petition towardes him at the least with signes or mercifull or pâ—tifull gestures and after yet when we lese for it is not alwayes geuen to eache parte to winne we suffer our selues most commonlye to dye go then further and thou shalte not fynde that the Lyon serueth the Lyon or the Harte the Harte as one man doeth an other without caringe to be reputed fearefull and vyle And wherof commeth this but of our inuincible and mightie mynde The which is farre more manifestly seene when you take vs who abyde paciently hunger and thyrst yea manye of vs suffer oure selues to dye then to remayne with you willingly preferring death before bondage Wherfore you are enforced when you will make any of vs tame to take of our little younglinges who not knowinge what they do suffering you to fede them familiarly by your vayne intisementes lose at one time with theyr libertie the same strength of mynd and sustines of bodye craftely so taken from theym by you that appertayne vnto theyr kynde But wilt thou see that nature hath geuen more strength of harte to vs then to you for she hath made vs more pacient to beare paynes and incommodities then she hath done you and not onely the males but also the females makinge them no lesse apte then the male to desende wherin truste shoulde be put and therefore you become bold to runne into euery kind of daunger without any consideration or else you seare lytte that that should be feared whereby you become timerous being afeard of euery thinge and secondarely because you haue not the discourse of reason wherby you might eyther knowe the good or the honest and by occasion thereof onely you put your selues in daungers but you do it eyther for profyte or for pleasure or to reuenge some iniurie And this is not fortitude for he who putteth him self to great daungers by anger by delighte or by ignoraunce is bestiall and â—olishe and not fortiall The which thinge chaunseth chieflye to you for that you knowe not which those thinges are that should reasonably be feared and lesse those in the whiche truste shoulde iustely be put Li. Thou makest vs of very lyttle knowledge yf thou beleue that we knowe not that the yll is that that should be feared Vli. It is true that there are euilles of the whiche a fortiall man shoulde be afearde but yet therfore not of all For there are of those that he who woulde haue no feare of them should be a foole and should deserue blame as for example infamye pouertie and sutche like Besides this yet one should feare nothing how horrible or euill so euer it appeared to be for cause of the good and the honest And therfore he is called mooste fortiall that feareth not deathe the whiche is mooste horrible of all for that it is thende of lyfe Notwithstandinge this maketh not that euery kynde of death must not be feared Nor the hauing feare of the naturall death or of that that chaunseth by fortune in the sea or by other like occasions maketh not that man can not bee fortiall Then shall he be fortiall that shall not feare sutche death as shall be mooste honourable as that is that chaunseth in the warres for honest occasion or for defence of the countrey the whiche death is so fayre that the people haue ordeyned perticuler honoures to all those that dye by lyke deathe Li. Who haue lesse feare of death then we and this may euery man see that considereth well our warres and howe mightely we defende vs euen as long as euer we can without feare of any thinge Vli. Thoughe it seme not that you haue fere of death wheÌ„ you fyght yet you do it not for occasion of the honest or of the good but to represse the iniuries that are done vnto you or for the conseruation of your selues or of your yonglinges or of such other thinges whereby you deserue not for this to be called fortiall as it also chaunseth among vs to them that put
them selues to suffer it eyther for loue or to auoyde pouertie or somelike thinge the whiche commeth not of vs by our faulte but rather these such are to be called fereful For to auoide thinges painefull or to choose deathe to flye some miserie or some euyll and not for beyng an honest thinge commeth of lacke of harte and corage and not of fortitude Li. What fere not we peraduenture also horrible and fearefull thinges but a lytle For we knowe not in our fyghtinge and in our other doinges any daunger at all Vli. And therfore you are bolde and not fortiall For among horrible thinges there are also of those that he who feareth them can not be sayd for this that he is not fortiall as all those thinges are that passe the might of man as for example the erth quakes the thunder belt and such like the which are yet suffred also by the mighty with a more stedfast mynde then the others commonly do But euen as the feare of euery thing when there is no nede is a vyce called fearefulnes so also the not hauinge feare of any thinge when and as it behoueth the which is thother extremitie is a vyce called rashe boldenes in the middes of the whiche two extremes for vyces are none other then extremes that offende eyther in to lyttle â— or to muche fortitude is put by reason and therfore thou shalte see that fortiall men will neuer put them selues in any daunger without some reason for it should be to great a follye to venture the lyfe the whiche is the dearest thynge that manne hathe but for some honest enterpryse and they ought much more to do it that are most wise as those that are most worthye to line for that they are mooste apte to helpe others Wherfore this name of fortitude is not also geuen amonge vs to them that put theyr liues in daungers of warre for money but onely to him that doeth it eyther to defende his countrey or for his owne honestie or for lyke honest enterprises neyther are they also called fortiall but lecherous and coueteous who either for unmoderate desier of plesures or of loue or to possesse riches esteme no daunger Soo also they that do it for anger or for ignoraunce are called by vs â—refull and rashe Finallye he is onely fortiall that feareth not death either for winning of honesty or for the auoyding of soone dishonest thing the which thinge can not be in you for that you haue not reason as I tolde thee before that may geue right iudgemente therof Li. Call not you also those fortiall who constrained by the lawes to gette some honour in theyr citie put them selues to many daungers Vli. Ye but they are not fortiall in dede though they seme very lyke For the manne that is fortiall in dede doth the dedes of fortitude first and principally for the loue of vertue and let it after folowe as it will and these do it eyther to get glorye or profite Li. And they that are very experte and valiant in warres do you not also cal the fortiall Vli. Ye but this yet is a fortitude somewhat vnaptly named muchâ— worse then those others for it commeth of arte and of experience the which teacheth thee to hurte others and to defende thy selfe and not of election guyded with reason as the true fortitude The which also thou must note that although it be exercised both about suertie and feare yet it consisteth more about terrible and fearefull thinges for he that in this gouerneth him selfe in such sort as is conuenient deserueth more to be called fortiall then he that doth it about those thynges in the which man should trust being much more easye to abstaine from pleasures then to bere griefes And although The seuenth Dialogue Cirres Vlisses the Horse WHat doest y u here thus alone Vlisses what thinkest thou on that thou standest thus musinge Vli. The beautie of the place the pleasauntnes of these shadowes were the thynges that prouoked me firste to rest in thys place and then afterward I stayed here thynkyng howe fewe those meÌ„ are that know them selues perfectlye or that seke to knowe whiche parte of them is the most noble and best part The which thyng is euen so necessarye to him that desyreth to obteine the true ende the which euery one naturally desyreth that wythout the same it is impossible to arryue vnto it For the which cause there hath bene written by our wise men in manye honorable places of our Gretia this good lesson Knowe thy selfe Cir. And wherby gatherest thou that ther are few that knowe theym selues Vli. By their workes for as thou knowest man is made of two natures the one corporall and earthye and the other heauenly and deuyne with the one of the which he is lyke to brute beastes and with the other to those immateriall substaunces y t turne the heauens This last should be much more set by by him then the other being the better parte notwithstanding all menne almost forgetting it attende to the other which is the bodye and they make none accompte but of that onelye and that they seke to decke and to make most happye and most eternall that they can Cir. I haue yet heard thee saye that in thy Gretia there are manye wyse menne the which seke onely sciences and vertues to make this part perfect that thou sayest is in them the best parte Vli. It is true but in respect of those that attende to the wealth and to the pleasures of the bodye they are most fewe and of these also the most parte seke vertue for the benefites sake of the body hoping to be able afterwardes therwith to procure vnto them mo coÌ„modities and pleasures and these truelye deserue not to be called vertuous not seking vertue for it self and because it is good but to get therby some gaine for the principal desire of our soule is the knowing the truth and the occasion of thinges to quiet it selfe therein as in his ende and not to get oute therof commodities to the bodye as they doo who knowing nothing but that in them only neuer thinke on other thing then of the benefites of the same whereby afterward al the miseries and al y e humaine infelicities growe Cir. Ulisses I thought that this litle time that thou wilt remaine with me thou wouldest haue bestowed in those pleasures whereof this my so faire and pleasaunt Island aboundeth prouoked yf by none other thinge yet by the continuall spring the which is euer in this place and by that suertye and by those delyghtes that thou seest so manye diuerse beastes take the one with the other that goo all the daye without any suspitioÌ„ a sporting by these my fayre and grene littell woddes after the sorte of those first times so much celebrate by your Poetes in the which discorde and hatred were not yet coÌ„men into y e world and thou standest all the day musinge nowe vnder the shadowe of