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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A06697	A profitable dialogue for a peruerted papist. Or a little labour of a lay men tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist: namely, by laying open vnto him his ovvne errour, in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre. Composed in dialogue maner, as it were betweene a simple lay man, and certayne graue diuines, and published onely for the benefit of the lay Papist. VVritten by R.M. gent. and student in Diuinity.	R. M., student in divinity.	1609 (1609)	STC 17149; ESTC S103258	25,816	46

A Profitable Dialogue for a peruerted Papist OR A little Labour of a Lay man tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist namely by laying open vnto him his owne errour in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre Composed in Dialogue maner as it were betweene a simple Lay man and certayne graue Diuines and published onely for the benefit of the Lay Papist Written by R. M. Gent. and Student in Diuinity Brethren be not children in vnderstanding 1. Cor. 14. 20. If God be on our side who can be against vs Rom. 8. 31. Seeke and ye shall finde Math. 7. 7. LONDON Printed by Simon Stafford dwelling in the Cloth-fayre neere the signe of the red Lion 1609. The Contents of this Booke THis small Treatise is diuided into two parts 1 THe first part contaynes certayne proofs frō Antiquity that it is onely the society of the faithfull the holy Catholike Church that can not finally erre and that the visible Church of Rome or where else soeuer may erre And therefore not lawfull for any one Bishop on earth to be admitted vniuersall Bishop or supreme head of the vniuersall Church 2 THe second part confirmes the former proofes by manifest proofes also from Antiquity that the visible Church of Rome doth erre in a principall poynt of Christian doctrine as namely touching the Sacrament of the blessed Body and Blood of our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ The Authour to the learned Reader GOod Reader my selfe being a Lay man and altogether vnskilfull in Artes I am therefore to entreat of thee being a scholer that thou wilt not so much regard the maner and forme of this my weake worke as the matter and substance it selfe which is no other thing in effect but certaine manifest proofes from Antiquity that the Church of Rome doth erre proued by such ancient witnesses as the Papists themselues allow for lawfull and so forcible are those witnesses against those Romish aduersaries that if hereafter any of them shall go about to reply against this Treatise ensuing they shall but thereby the more lay open their owne follies and shame in striuing against the inuincible streame for great is the Trueth and it will preuayle yea what can more confound the learned aduersary or as S. Paul sayth * Tit. ● 10. 11. condemne him to erre in his owne iudgement then to find himselfe altogether vnable without absurd cauelling and vndirect dealing to resist the weakenesse of a simple Lay man fighting in Trueths behalfe for notwithstanding my Sixe demaunds to the learned Papists be the simplest booke that euer hitherto hath bene brought foorth against them yet are they not able to reply directly against it without absurdity Whereupō I doubt they will seeme to skorne to vouchsafe it an answere But here by the way I acknowledge and that sincerely that it is vnmeete for any Lay man although neuer so great a scholer to take to himselfe the office of ministery in the Church or to clime vp to the Pulpit before he be lawfully called to that holy and reuerend function But for Lay men decently to instruct and admonish one another it is no nouelty but a thing allowable in the Church many yeeres since as witnesseth S. Hierome who sayth playnely * Vpon the Ep●stle to the Colo. Chap. 3. that the Apostle Paul doth teach that Lay men ought to haue the Scriptures abundantly and to instruct and admonish one another c. But if it be tolerable for Lay men to admonish one another it followes then because all are not scholers that some of them may be also tolerated to write simply and playnely and according to that maner of speach which the common vulgar sort do vsually speake who neuer speake more eloquently then when they speake trueth sincerely and playnely and then they thinke they speake very well if they be vnderstood very well But perhaps some learned Aduersary will obiect according to his vsuall maner against these proofes which I haue here cited from some of the ancient Fathers liuing in the Church aboue a thousand yeeres since that they haue bene brought forth already by diuers learned men long since answered by learned men also therfore in vaine for me being a Lay man vnlearned to cite them againe thinking that I haue but gathered them here and there out of other mens workes where they haue bene collected before and for that cause likewise from me the lesse to be regarded These things being obiected I answere True it is that the same proofes haue long since bene brought forth against the Aduersaries by thē also answered but how well or how ill they haue bin answered let that be tryed by those Christians which are of soūd iudgement for this I da●e auouch that a lawfull witnesse being brought against any mā it is no lesse then an absurd answer in that man whosoeuer to reply that the same witnesse in speaking of one thing doth thereby meane another But into the same strayte are all Heretiks brought by resisting the apparāt truth And this is a principall marke to be aymed at in this our corrupt age in which there is so much dissension and controuersie among professed Christians For if our aduersaries might be permitted to answere so absurdly and to passe from one poynt to another before some one poynt onely be throughly decided all the labour wee take to cleanse them from their infectious spots of errour would proue but labour in vayne but God be thanked the faithfull know well how to preuent the silly shiftes of Heretikes and so with little labour eyther to conuert them or confound them for commonly the Heretike may be condemned by his owne mouth his doctrine contradicting some trueth in Scripture which himselfe professeth to beleeue for where traditions and customes of men are regarded before holy Scripture there ignorance doth soone beget errour especially if diuers things called by one name be not so perfectly distinguished but that the one may be taken for the other But let the ignorant learne first touching faith A true faith which worketh by loue is one thing and a verball or vaine faith another Secondly touching iustification A iustification before God is one thing and a iustification before men another for God iustifieth according to the inward heart by the good tree true faith but man iustifieth according to the outward declaration by the fruits proceeding frō that tree * Luke 6. 43. good workes S. Paul treating of the first iustification denyes not the second for he sayth If Abraham were iustified by workes he hath wherein to reioyce but not with God c. γ Rom. 4. S. Iames treating of the second denyes not the first for he graunts Abraham beleeuing God it was imputed vnto him for righteousnesse c γ Iames. 2. Thirdly touching the Church The society of the faithfull which liue by true faith and therefore hell gates not possible to preuayle against them is one thing and a

vnlesse they adde thereunto some matter of their owne deuising as namely by adding a condition to the holy text more then thou didst there expresse * Bellarmine in his 〈…〉 as though there were a defect in thy word by which all things are made perfit and by which at the last day they shal● iudge both the quicke and the dead But full well do thy faithfull people know by the direction of thy holy spirit that thou giuest not thy selfe for foode to any reprobate and vnworthy creature for thou sayst here most playnely that whosoeuer eateth and drinketh thy flesh and blood hath eternall life and therefore although the Sacrament thereof may be eaten and drunken both by the worthy and vnworthy receiuer as witnesseth thine Apostle Paul q 1. Cor. 11. 27. yet that blessed foode it selfe cannot so be eaten and drunken for the vertue thereof is to giue life to all that eates and drinks it and this is thy promise which can neuer be broken But most gracious Lord forasmuch as there be yet many weake people that cannot well vnderstand thée herein without adding to these thy words this word worthyly resolue them we humbly beséech thée whether it be so or not that some professed Christians may eate and drinke this sacred banket of thine euen thy selfe vnworthily and so dye in their sinnes as the vnworthy and faithlesse Iewes did notwithstanding they did eate Manna Speake so vnto them good Lord that they may both heare and vnderstand Christ My sonne Let those weake people of little faith marke well here what I say vnto them Haue not I graciously giuen you warning by my sacred word saying r Math. 16. ● and 15. 9. Take heede and beware of the leauen of the Pharises and Sadduces in vaine they worship me teaching for doctrines mens precepts Haue not I taught you by mine Apostle Paul faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God * Rom. 10. 1● Iohn 8. 4● Mark 1● 24. He that is of God heareth Gods wordes c. * Iohn 5. 39. Are ye not therfore deceiued because ye know not the Scriptures neyther the power of God * Search the Scriptures My sheepe heare my voyce and I know them Iohn 10. 27. and 12. 48. and 14. 6. Luke ●1 23. and they follow me He that refuseth me and receyueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken it shall iudge him in the last day I am the Way the Trueth the Life No man commeth vnto the Father but by me * Iohn 6. 〈…〉 He that is not with me is against me and he that gathereth not with me scattereth but * He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood dwelleth in me and I in him As that liuing Father hath sent me so liue I by the Father and he that eateth me euen he shall liue by me Note well here what I say I speake not one thing and meane an other I make not my promise so absolutely and meane it but conditionally I say not he that eateth me worthily because no vnworthy creature that shall dye in his sinne can eate me And to make that most playne vnto you I say againe as I haue sayd already This is that bread which came downe from heauen not as your fathers haue eaten Manna and are dead he that eateth of this bread shall liue for euer c. Lay. For this thy playne declaration all prayse be giuen vnto thée O Lord for hereby all may discerne most clearely that thou doost not commit thy selfe to vnfaithfull creatures and to be foode for the reprobate as Iudas and such like We therefore most humbly pray thée to open the eyes of these blinde weakelings which by too much establishing the doctrines of men go about to contradict thée herein and so inspire their heartes with the grace of thy holy spirit that they may thereby discerne the onely cause of their great blindnesse But the same cause being by thy gracious help taken away they shall then clearely sée to séeke and find euen according to thy diuine direction ſ Math. ● 7. Let them sée O Lord that their Church of Rome doth yet erre and will erre still vntill shée acknowledge her owne weakenesse that she may erre But so aboundant is thy goodnesse mercy towards repentant sinners that if she would in due time repent her former errours with that vayne and presumptuous opinion touching her supposed purity in her owne doctrine generally no doubt thou wouldst not onely pardon all her erronious doctrines and superstitious cerimonies but also restore her to her first dignity and commendation and cause all her good and laudable Traditions and Customes which now in respect of her wilfull blindnesse in some poynts are little or nothing regarded by a great number to be as highly estéemed and as duely obserued as euer heretofore they haue bene for thy eternall wisedome doth more respect the good and faithfull intent of the dooer then the déed done whatsoeuer it be because whatsoeuer is not of true faith séeme it neuer so holy in the sight of man is no better then sinne in thy infallible Iudgement * Rom. 14. 23. In consideration whereof we most humbly beséech thée also to encrease in vs Protestants true and liuely faith which alwayes worketh by loue that we may be all in generall more zealous in thy seruice then hither to we haue bene for we here acknowledge before thée that knowest the secrets of all hearts who also hereafter shalt be our Iudge the knowledge without true zeale is more vnprofitable in thy sight then zeale without knowledge t Math. 21. 28. to 32. Luke 12. 47 48. Iohn 9. 41. Actes 10. 1. 10 5. Rom. ● 〈◊〉 5. 6. therefore as we professe thée in words so good Lord let vs expresse thée in workes that we may not be reckoned in the number of those foolish men that build vpon sand that is those that heare thy words and do them not u Math. ● 26. 27. We professe before thy diuine Maiesty that none can be saued but those that haue a faith working by loue x Gala. ● 6. 1. Tim. 1. ● Tit. 3. 8. Iames. 2. 20. other faiths we hold as dead and vayne in respect of Iustification but that faith onely which worketh by loue we hold to iustifie without the workes of the law euen as thine holy Apostle hath taught vs. y Rom. 3 ●8 Therefore for the great loue in thée declared vnto vs when thou didst suffer torments death for our sinnes we beséech thée swéete Iesus so to blesse the hearts of all true Christians that they may all from hencefoorth both liue and dye in peace and vnity Behold sayth thy Prophet Dauid * Psalm 1● how good how comely a thing it is brethrē to dwell euen together It is like the precious oyntment vpon the head that runneth downe vpon the beard euen vnto Aarons beard which went downe on the border of his garments and as the dew of Hermon which falleth vpon the Mountaynes of Zion for there the Lord appoynted the blessing and life for euer Let thine heauenly blessing therefore so blesse the Vniuersall Church here on earth that it may euen now without any more controuersies conclude a spirituall marriage as it were betwéene faith and workes that so wée may all both truely glorifie thée in this world also be made partakers with thée of that euerlasting felicity in the next world euen in that holy place of en●lesse ioy which from the foundations of the world hath bene prepared for thine elect z Mar● ●● 24 by thine heauenly Father our onely God and Creator to whom with thée our swéete Redéemer and the holy Ghost our sanctifier thrée persons and one euerliuing God be ascribed all prayse power honor dominion and glory both now and for euermore Amen FINIS Let no man deceiue himselfe If any man among you seeme to be wise in this world let him be a foole that he may be wise for the wisdome of this world is foolishnesse with God c. 1. Cor. 3. 18 19. Laus Deo et pax Christianis Glory be to God and peace among Christians Faults escaped In Page 5. line 23. for a principall Read the principall Page 12. line 24. for sayth he knoweth God Read sayth he knoweth God Page 24. line 5. in the mergent for Page 18. Read Page 15.

S. Iohn He himselfe doth expound how that may be done which he spake of what it is to eate his Body and drinke his blood He which eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood sayth he dwelleth in me u Iohn 6. 56. I●n him This it is then to eate that meate and drinke that blood to dwell in Christ and to haue Christ dwelling in him And by this he that dwelleth not in Christ and in whom Christ doth not dwell without doubt hee neither eates his flesh nor drinkes his blood spiritually although carnally and visibly hee presse with his teeth the Sacrament of his body and blood but rather hee doth eate and drinke the Sacrament of so great a thing to his owne Iudgement because hee presumes to come vncleane to the Sacraments of Christ which no man receyues worthily but hee which is cleane of whom it is sayd x Mat. ● 8. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God c. Lay. Then it séemes by thée contrary to the doctrine of the Church of Rome that the presence of Christ in the Sacrament is in such a spirituall maner that although the wicked may eate and drinke the same Sacrament vnworthily according to S. Paul y 1. Cor. 11. 27. yet they cannot by any meanes eate and drinke Christ himselfe the matter and substance thereof Whereby thou doost declare this thing to be an vnspeakeable mystery onely for the faithfull to vnderstand for it séemes here also by thée that none can receiue the Body of Christ but onely the liuely members of Christ that dwell in him so that as they dwell in Christ Christ dwelleth in them but this is not according to Transsubstantiation Therefore to satisfie our weake brethren speake yet more playne if thou canst reuerend Father and tell vs by some familiar example whether any can haue true life not eating and drinking that holy substance and also whether there bée any cause or spiritual sicknesse in man eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ to exclude him from that eternall life Aug. My sonne r In his ●6 Treatis vpon S. Iohn He hath not that life which doth not eate that Bread and drinke that Blood Indeed men may haue a temporall life without that but not at all the eternall He therefore which doth not eate his flesh nor drinke his blood hath not life in himselfe and he which eateth his flesh and drinketh his blood hath life He answereth to both because he sayd eternall It is not so in that meate which we receyue for the sustayning of this temporall life for he which shal not receyue it shall not liue yet for all that he shall not liue alwayes which doth receyue it for it may come to passe that many which haue taken that meate may dye by old age or by a disease or by some other cause But in this meate and drinke that is to say the Body and Blood of our Lord it is not so for both he which doth not receiue it hath not life and he which doth receyue it hath life and this likewise eternall Therefore he would haue this bread and drinke to be vnderstood the society of the body and his members a Iohn 14. 20. and 17. 21 22 23. which is the holy Church his Saints and faythfull c. The Sacrament of this thing that is to say of the vnity of the Body Blood of Christ is prepared on the Lords Table in some place dayly in some place at certayne times and is receyued from the Lords Table vnto some to life vnto some to destruction But the thing it selfe to which the Sacrament doth belong is to euery man to life to no man to destruction whosoeuer shall be partaker of it c. Lay. Here thou art most playne indéed that the wicked cannot eate and drinke Christ Iesus the Bread of life And by this also we finde that thou doost acknowledge according to S. Paul b 1. Cor. 10. 3 4 that the faithful Iewes did eate and drinke the same spirituall substance which we do but in their Sacramēts Christ to come in ours Christ is come the same spirituall vertue in both otherwise as thou doost affirme they could not haue entred into eternall life Aug. True my sonne c In his Booke of the profit of repentance Chap. 1. Whosoeuer in Manna vnderstood Christ did eate the same spirituall food which we do c. To the beleeuer it was neyther this nor that meate and drinke which belongs to the hungry and thirsty but to the beleeuer the same which is now for then Christ to come now Christ is come to come and is come are diuers words yet the same Christ c. Lay. What other difference is there betwéene their Sacramen●s and ours besides Christ to come and Christ is come Aug. d In his 26. T●eatis vpon S. Iohn In signes they are diuers but in the thing signifyed they are alike c. They did all drinke the same spirituall drinke but in the visible appearance they one thing we another but the same in spirituall vertue which that signifyed c. Hold firmely my sonne and make no doubt thereof e In his Booke to Peter the Deacon Chap. 18. 19. the same onely begotten Sonne the word made flesh to haue offered himselfe for vs a sweete smelling sauour to God f Ephe. 5. 2 A sacrifice and Hoste to whom with the Father and the holy Ghost beasts were sacrificed in the time of the old Testament by the Patriarks Prophets Priests and to whom now that is in the time of the new Testament with the Father and the holy Ghost with whom he is equall in diuinity the holy Catholike Church through the vniuersall world ceaseth not in fayth and loue to offer the sacrifice of Bread and wyne for in those carnall oblations there was a figuration of the flesh of Christ which for our sinnes he without sinne was to offer and of the Blood which he was to sheade for the remission of our sinnes But in this sacrifice there is a thankes-giuing and also a remembrance of the flesh of Christ which he did offer for vs and of the blood which the same God did shead for vs c. g In his 20 Booke against 〈◊〉 Chap. 2● Before the comming of Christ the flesh and blood of this Sacrifice was promised by oblations of similitudes in the Passion of Christ it was deliuered in the trueth it selfe After the Ascension of Christ it is celebrated by a Sacrament of remembrance c. Lay. We note here from thée one thing well worth the nothing against our aduersaries that is if Christ be really contayned in the Sacrifice of their Masse then Christ the second person in Trinity is offered to himselfe the second person in Trinity But we assure our selues that it cannot stand with thy grauity to allow of such absurdity Thou doost here call this 〈◊〉 The sacrifice of Bread